Great video! I'm glad that my analysis of the ornament loop was useful for you! Even though it will probably never exist, it's still a really cool element to study as a theoretical concept. I think the physics is pretty interesting 🤓
What if you took it just a little slower and controlled it the entire way through? Made the bottom part slower, then boosted the car back up? Maybe stop the car before (or rather after) the point where letting it go would be dangerous, let it swing around, then come back up? I think I can see this as at least something for a sort of flat ride.
Dangerous g-forces have always been a concern with transitioning to inversions due to inconsistent and sudden apparent force shifts. That is why a vertical loop has been designed to be tear-shaped instead of circular-shaped as to make the g-force transition more gradual before reaching the top where it is the lest intense, which looks like someone is making the loop taller and more elongated. Since an "ornament loop" is the opposite of a "vertical loop", wouldn't it be safer to flatten such a loop concept? We see at 4:43 hints of how to fix the problem and the pretzel loop does have a flattened appearance. The only remaining question is how intense will the upward loop movement be? Theoretically, a wider turning radius is at the bottom of this loop where the train is at its fastest and a tighter turning radius is at the top where the train is at its slowest. This still has the design problem if a train valleys where it puts the riders uncomfortably upside-down for extended periods of time.
To quote one Jeff Goldblum: "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they never stopped to think if they should." In all seriousness TPC, great work as always.
The pretzel loop *is* the ornement loop with the clothoid (sort-of) applied. The clothoid design is about reducing g-forces with larger radius on high g-forces sections : on a standard loop, that'd be at the entrance and exit. But on an ornement loop, that is on the bottom.
I got to experience what that loop would feel like irl and it SUCKED. On a portable technical park loop fighter my rotating row of seats got locked inverted so I was right side up at the top and upside down at the bottom and the blood rushing to your head going down face first was brutal. 1/10 wouldn’t recommend.
I remember designing a 500 foot, 200 mph air launch coaster with a top hat and ornament loop on it, all with lapbars. To this day, I still don’t know which part of it was the worst
I absolutely love this content. You have no clue, study in G Forces on amusement rides is a massive interest of mine. I would love to see more videos like these. I predicted it would be to dangerous as the negative Gs would indeed be to dangerous for the general public. If you think about it, it would have to go into the element with quite a bit of speed to come out at q good speed. And yes you could make the exit of the element lower than the entrance but that would mean you would have to make it a tighter as it goes threw which only increases the negative Gs. I would think the only safe way it would work is if it went into the element slow but had some LSMs to give it enough speed to go back up. Like you said, this is a huge thing for fighter pilots, although I believe they train for much stronger positive Gs than anything. Using methods like training in a centrifuge, using a G suit, and learning the AGSM: Anti G Straining Maneuver. But anyways, it's definitely a very interesting concept and I would love to see more. Fantastic job to Theme Park Crazy and Art of Engineering.
absolutely, me too! I don't like riding rollercoasters but I love learning about them. This stuff fascinates me and I admire people who are thrillseekers and try to get as many crazy credits as possible.
When I was designing B&M flyers in Planet Coaster, my most recent concept, Necromancer, had a pretzel loop drop that, according to the heatmaps, pulled -4.30 vertical Gs. And that is probably because Planet Coaster is more about being a game than a professional simulator.
As soon as I looked at that loop, I said oh hell no. That many negative G’s could easily kill people. Planet Coaster really doesn’t deal with the dangers of g-forces though. Hell I’ve built rides with g-force numbers that would kill every passenger, and the game just says, “gee, that sure causes a lot nausea and fear”, lol.
I've played over 400 hours of Planco and never once thought to make a loop like that... now I'm intrigued to make some crazy elements and see if they are realistically possible.
@@GeoTube9 the joke is that Australia is commonly said to be upside down since it’s down under, which would make this loop right side up if that were the case which it obviously isn’t as it’s just for laughs.
i do this thing where i draw coaster layouts from a side perspective and this is something i’ve always thought about but never made bc i knew it wouldn’t be possible. and now there’s a video. love it
I just love how Planet Coaster let’s you stretch your imagination to build impossible stuff. I feel like the old RCT games limited too much. I mean yeah it’s more realistic, but it’s a game, we all wanna create deadly things in a rollercoaster game to satisfy our inner demons. 😂
I was a student pilot when I was young and I can tell you from experience any severe negative g experience is extremely unpleasant. I cannot explain the amount of pain. My instructor was an ex-fighter pilot one day he took me up in an old military trainer to show me why you did not want to do negative g maneuvers. We had been flying for about an hour when he ask me if I was ready to learn. I stupidly said yes! He pulled a 5 plus g negative maneuver. I don't remember what, I only know I don't want to do it again. I swear I thought my head was going to explode. I would never go on any roller coaster that did an outside loop!
4:33 at this point, you could shape the loop like a pretzel that has tighter radius at the entarance and exit and more gentle curvature at the bottom (kind of like flying coaster pretzel loops) that would supposedly make the train pull more negative G's when it is right side up conpared to when it is upside down similar to how vertical loops with clothoid in theory make riders feel more positive G's upside down compared to rightside up. But thats only possible in theory Considering that even the most perfectly designed clothoid loops can go near zero G's at the top and about 4-5 G's on the entarance and exit.
You can design clothoid loops to be G-force constant, but you can't do it with Pretzel loops but yes you have the right idea, that is exactly how it would be done. As far as I can tell, the Pretzel loop was an attempt to create a realistic ornament loop, it just doesn't quite look like one because of the shape at the top.
What I did once, is I selected the pretzel loop on a sit-down coaster, then put swinging mine trains on the ride, and the element acted like a Norwegian loop (it was right after the first drop.)
There’s a few things that could help the realism and believability of this element. For one, changing the shape from a perfect circle to more of a bean shape helps minimize the centrifugal g forces at the bottom of the inversion. Also, using longer trains allows for the height of the center of mass of the train to not dip so low, meaning the train moves slower through the element. Making sure there are brakes that lead into the element also helps.
I’ve always wondered why this element wasn’t a thing. I saw your community post asking for feedback. I really enjoyed this video and would like to see similar content regarding different layouts and inversions and the history of them over time. Of course, mixed within your usual content. Great job!
Great name for this element! Coincidentally, when I grow up, I'd actually thought of building that kind of loop. And when I got to know SooperDooperLooper more and more and remember seeing Manta's pretzel loop, I imagined that loop to be seen one day. And this was YEARS before I became an enthusiast in 2019. That was an astounding video, TPC(still being surpriesed out of this video) ! Now I know if I ever take a risk to make this element straight out of my imagination, I'll beware of those outcomes!
I do wonder if this element could be possible on a normal-train coaster (Overcoming the time limit of 1.5-4 seconds, and the risk of vallying), if it were on a multi-launch coaster? Putting 1 or 2 boosters ahead (or even inside of the ornament-loop itself if possible), would allow the ride to guarantee the speed needed to clear the element, and allow it to get through it fast enough to prevent red-out risk (Assuming the element was designed/mapped to be smooth/small enough to keep the G-forces in check).
I applaud the creativity behind just flipping a simple loop upside down, it's one of those "so simple it's missed" things. That being said, I don't ever want to end up in the back of an ambulance, so no red outs for me thanks.
The Ornament Loop on a flyer isn’t as cool as the Pretzel. But think of this. Those double vertical loops on Arrow loopers. That as ornament loops on a flyer. Basically a double ornament loop. Obviously the second is smaller than the first. Or interlocking Ornament loops on a flyer. Edit: the marketing possible for this would be awesome to see. Also, one or both loops could have the train follow the outside of the track like on invert’s loops.
I had the idea of a coaster with a figure 8 loop. In theory it looks awesome, in reality it’s definitely plausible with some assistance from magnetic launch systems in key sections of the track.
This video really makes me wanna get Planet Coaster. It just seems so cool to make coasters that are literally impossible in real life like you explained. It was a very nice analysis btw the way!!
There are actually rides that simulate this loop. A certain pendulum flatride called inversion XXL (from Ordelman, a dutch funfair operator) that would stall at the top so that the ride gondolas would turn right side up. They would then be locked and the pendulum would rush back to the ground, which would make the riders rush past the ground upside down. It was a really cool but very extreme experience. I’m not sure if the ride still does this maneuver to this day as this was 5 years ago.
I remember going on a skyrocket 2 coaster in Lake Compounce, “Phobia Phear” every time I see a pov of it I always remember the fear and excitement of the ride.
Wow !! That was some serious coaster building there! I learned something new today. The only thing missing was a comparison to food with the red out. Thanks for letting us in on this!
Sometimes I watch channels that cover train accidents and then I’ll watch rollercoaster stuff… I have way more interest in rollercoasters but honestly… they are so similar. And it’s crazy to think at one point in history, and even some ways still today, we couldn’t even make trains safe, and then we started turning them into screaming metal death traps, until eventually they became mostly safe roller coasters. Just such a weird evolution. I can’t imagine what it would’ve felt like to be the first person to ever ride a “rollercoaster.” Like “hey mom I road this train today, and it was on an incline, and it was fun.” 😂
I watched the entire video waiting for you to reference tatsu at six flags magic mountain. it has the exact same loop only it's for a flying coaster just like you talked about at the end of the video. indeed you go into the loop and come out of it still facing down so if the train ever stalled you'll be laying on your back the entire time.
I was able to perform a dive under loop while riding a Ferris Wheel style flat ride at the fair called the Sky Diver. On that you had a steering wheel inside so you could position your car to do an undersided loop. Extremely intense but awesome as well. Thanks for posting this video as well.
@@ThemeParkCrazy Due to sporadic COVID pandemics, both the park opening schedule and travel plan become unpredictable and have a great impact on my updates
An idea for a cool coaster inversion I have is the Broniek stall, named for my best friend Ashley Broniek. This element, which is basically a twisted Immelmann loop, starts as a junior Immelmann, but then it gets weird, stalling 90 degrees at the apex, before returning to level banking in the opposite direction. The track continues to twist in this direction until the track is upside down in a zero-g stall, this would pull laterals as well as positives, and then the negative Gs kick in during the stall. The track then twists out of the stall in the opposite direction to which it entered.
Your logo reminds me of an inverted ornament loop where you start inverted at the bottom. Maybe a half heartline roll into the element and then the loop?
If you ever had the chance to ask the art of engineering another question, I’d love to know how forceful a flying wing coaster would be.I can’t imagine the feeling a corkscrew or twist would give. Edit: (and it’s effect on the body)
@@UwePieper it would be similar, however since the seats do not rotate in this weird concept in my head, I think the forces would be significantly higher.
If you designed a 4th dimension coaster so that it only turns riders into the flying position then stays in that orientation the entire time, I think that it would count. If you invert the 4D coaster track you can get the guests to face forwards the whole ride, so the X2 controlled spin 4th dimension coaster can be either an "inverted" wing coaster or a flying wing coaster.
Great video! The only thing I think you missed out on is that you got so close to making the connection that the shape of a B&M pretzel loop is just the clothoid shape in reverse: a tight radius at the top where the speed and Gs are lower, and a large radius at the bottom where they're higher. This would have tied everything together really well at the end.
3:17 not much to say here, just glad to see one of our coasters get mentioned for once. I've greyed out on the pretzel loop on Superman, as well as on Batman while it was running in reverse. Fun times.
Very thankful for this channel teaching me that greying out on coasters isn't something to be THAT afraid of since that's why I've been avoiding them for a while. I blacked out ONCE and have been scared ever since even if it was just for a few seconds! I'd also love to see more content on impossible coaster elements, this was very informative!
Yea greying out and blacking out isn't anything serious..it's still scary (I've never experienced it but it sounds scary) but at least it's nice to know it's not a health problem! I'd personally take a break after a coaster if I did either to make sure my body was fine after, I'm not sure how dangerous it is to ride again soon after greying/blacking out but I'd rather not find out.
Didn't Action Park essentially do a nearly perfect circle loop for their water ride and that turned into a disaster? People were getting stuck ON THE TOP, getting injured when their bodies and the force of the water tried to make them do the loop, and this was just a WATER RIDE, not a coaster that would have supports in order to give it extra power to make the complete circle. XD
Yeah, the instant the animation of that loop came up, before the narrator even mentioned consulting physicists or engineers, I thought, "That ought to blow the passengers' eyes right out of their sockets." Not to mention that the wheel assemblies and shoulder restraints would be subject to ungodly stresses. They'd have to be extremely robust and constantly inspected. If something failed, the ride would launch whatever got cut loose like a catapult, but it would kill people by making the blood pressure in their heads soar even if everything held together.
Remember commenting on the post about red-outs and the forces involved. I wasn't aware of the standards that you spoke about so that was interesting to hear, about in line with what I thought. I'm surprised to hear that they allow for -2.8 though. I would think since -2 for a split second is the strongest I've heard of or seen anywhere that would be about the limit, maybe a tad higher. and -2 at 4 seconds..... that would be something else, probably uncomfortable. I'm not aware of anything that sustains for multiple seconds much under -1. Anything between -1 and -2 tends to be very short, even if part of a larger negative g force element. I do know of a couple rides in particular seats that hit close to 6g - some of the old Schwarzkopfs (the one at SFOT is close) and the inverted boomerang (back seat of Invertigo at King's Island - right at 6g if running fast, I've recorded it at 5.9x). Anaconda in the front also hits close to 6 g, I believe 5.8. I tried to lookup the actual force where redouts start to occur and I didn't find anything official, but a few references of approx -3g, so yeah, -2.8, crazy.
The closest real thing would be the Norwegian loop seen on Speed Monster and Fahrenheit, which makes it non-fatal by first flipping the riders the other way around so you're riding on the inside. Then the Gs are still positive. I suppose a flying-coaster pretzel loop would be another loop that you enter and exit at the top--there, the Gs can be even stronger because you're taking them through the chest like an astronaut.
When I was young I thought of a concept of a rollercoaster where all it was was a launch, straight track, and a loop, but the entire time after the launch the track would just rotate constantly so while going down the straight track you would be inverting and then it keeps going on the loop, so kind of like a non inverting loop, but the track twists constantly instead of once, would never exist and would have way to many forces but a funny concept
This could be possible with a non flying coaster the non inverting loop could work like this it goes down turns you up right turns up then finishes it something like this at 0:15
If any one manufacturer would try this concept, I think it would actually be Vekoma with their new flying coaster model. Theyre the main ones I could see innovation that much at the moment.
When I used to play Screamride, I made a coaster dubbed the ‘Michigan Monster’ (because I lived in Michigan at the time) which featured a lot of unbanked corners and stupidly high speeds. It caused all the riders to eject and I later deleted it.
With brake elements on the 'loop' and a lower height at the exit than from the entry this element could be perhabs possible. 🤔 A powered vehicel with a controlled speed could pass this element as well.
I love your content. It’s amazing. The ornament loop is a very nice and creative element. But I do agree with you that I don’t think it will come into fruition anytime soon. I would like to see it happen but I personally don’t think it will. And I would much prefer a traditional loop or zero g roll or any other inversion. My personal favorite inversion is the batwing. I love how forceful it is and it really gets your adrenaline going.
The maximum negative gs allowed is 2.8- with the exception of carnival rides, especially those that are not in America. I have experienced the motion of this "ornament loop" on a ride thats approximately 170 ft tall and 60mph at the apex, and simular sensations on rides that flip upside down too fast. Its so intense that it becomes uncomfortable and painful. The blood rushing to the head actually hurts, and your body is aggressively pressing into the restraints while the ride is trying really hard to throw you out. This can also produce blackouts and grayouts but It is more comfortable with positive gs for sure.
I have been wondering about this for a long time. Excellent video as always. I've wondered if this could be done in a bigger and slower design, but your explanation makes sense.
Funny, it looked like you used Intimidator 305 as an example of a coaster that makes people black out. The first time I rode it, the young woman next to me said, "hey, if I black out, don't worry about it. It just happens to me on this ride." I thought she was exaggerating, but sure enough, bottom of the drop she just went limp for half the ride.
0:38 I can never wait to see the Preztel Loop (Upside-Down Vertical Loop) for both normal and inverted steel coasters in real life!! Not only for flying coasters.
I think that the concept is neat, but perhaps it could be done with a flying that comes in upside down, and does a corkscrew after coming out, resulting in you sitting up normally at the bottom. A chain lift could be built into the frame in such a way it could be engaged in the case of a bottoming out, but otherwise wouldn’t catch, not sure how that would work entirely but it’d be an easy way to overcome the bottoming out issue on the carts (which would be easier to unload since riders are sitting upright at the bottom). Just some thoughts. I, too, love the element and really like your choice of name for it, it fits.
I'm glad that that inversion never got made seeing that it would possibly kill people! Maybe I should think twice as to what roller coasters I should ride.
Fun fact from an engineering student, it's just ASTM International now. ASTM used to be the acronym you used, but they rebranded to be an international organization, and have worked to modify their language to reflect that.
Yah I could see how this could be dangerous. I’ve heard of red outs before. And like you said the forces could be super damaging at the bottom of the loop. It honestly just sounds super uncomfortable even on a flying coaster.
You know, this element has always been on my mind! How did you read my mind? It would make sense that the ornament loop probably would unfortunately not work, becuase thinking back to what you said about all that stress put on it, it made me think, on a regular loop, the highest stress point is at the top, but with gravity, the train slows down before it hits the top, so the stress is less dramatic, but the ornament loop is the opposite way around. At the "peak" of the ornament loop(the bottom) you could be going at some dangerous speeds inside the inversion, that if are forceful enough could cause a derailment at the base.
To make a circular loop bearable you narrow it into a clothoid loop, it make an ornament loop bearable to widen it (just like the pretzel loop.) I am pretty sure that the pretzel loop is an attempt to create a realistic ornament loop. Also see the Norwegian loop, as it is as good as you're going to get on a standard sit down coaster.
This video tickled my fancy having grown up with Thrillville: Off The Rails. It had an element called the inverted loop available on certain in-game coaster types, and I always brushed it off as just another whacky idea. I had no idea it could actually be dangerous in some scenarios. Anyway, awesome video!
@@keithstransitexperiences9749 that's a list that may require way more than a YT comment to list out, but here'smy vest shot. Aside from the coaster elements in the game that defy physics, there are actually quite a few that are actually one-for-one recreated from real coasters (oblique loops, corkscrews, inline twists) or can be sort of "faked" (i.e. half of a corkscrew going one way and the other half going the opposite direction for a cutback, and the first half of a corkscrew plus the second half of a barrel roll *almost* makes a nice sidewinder). Flat rides? Among others (some that literally have no real life versions), the game featured old school ones like a rotor and a tilt-a-whirl, and some newer types like a Mondial Top Scan and a Zamparla Disko. (Coolest one imo was a behemoth rendition of the Nauta Bussink Evolution.) As for models of coasters, while their names all varied and some of the different ones had different sets of elements, many of them were based on the same real world model or general type (i.e. the models or templates called "Chasm Winch" and "Hover Roller" were both just variations of one another based on an Arrow suspended coaster, and I'm fairly certain that three different models were just variations of the Arrow custom looper track and elements with redesigned trains).
@@christianlewis6789 What were the coaster elements including ones that defied physics? Also, do you have Thrillville: Off the Rails so you can make a video of all elements and coaster types?
I’ve grayed out a few times on multiple roller coasters, but now that I know how it happens it’s kinda scary. Like my eyes literally aren’t functioning well because there isn’t enough blood in them…
i love that you used footage from intimidator 305 when talking about greying out because i almost always grey out on that ride!! i think it's kinda fun actually
I rode a Booster-like flatride that would lock the gondola in such a way that it would be upside down at its lowest point- I suppose it's the closest to the Ornament-loop I'll ever get- and it was NOT pleasant. You're fighting against the forces the entire time. A tamer version of that would be the S&S flyswat, that was a bit more fun as it didn't have as much speed or height
I find G Forces to be really awesome, but considering how intense pretzel loops are and they have a significantly wider pullout than this ornament loop, cannot imagine how intense the ornament loop would be
After thinking for a while, the ornament loop could be possible just with some slight changes to it like, probably being the first element on the ride, the first 90 degrees would need to have trim breaks on it and the last 180 degrees of the loop would need a launch. This would probably not pull more negative g’s than a ejector airtime moment.
Old video at this point but wanted to share - The interesting thing is that Planet Coaster actually does track these numbers in-game. Negative g's will be under your "min vertical" and "min forward" statistics in negative numbers. These can also be seen in heat maps - and no, not just the Fear one you showed, in which red fear can be from a number of things, but g-forces have their own heat maps that are white to dark purple, and if you have *any* of the darkest purple areas on your Planet Coaster track, it would likely be fatal irl. The game does not prevent you from making such a track, nor does it make it so no one will go on, and doesn't kill your in-game guests, but it *does* punish your excitement rating when above certain levels (that is, the game actually recognizes fatal g-forces and lowers the final excitement rating of the track to be lower than the overall track average).
I'm a little surprised by that conclusion. I know negative g-forces are more dangerous to deal with, but I would have assumed this loop to be possible. After all I've been on a ride that would drop you heads down in a circle from a height of about 60m and survived just fine. If that is possible, why not some form of this loop?
That kind of loop would be pretty kosher if it were non-inverting. If you wanted to commit to it, you could have it be braked on the way down and launched coming back around.
This loop is a very interesting concept. The only coaster type I could see it possibly happen is the flyer, but the pretzel loop is very similar, so this loop is basically irrelevant.
The pretzel loop is this lol, it's a front-flip lol. And yeah, the stress and G-force on flying coasters during this element, is way less than if this was a sit down coaster
![เปิด อาณาจักร หมื่นล้าน "สาระตั้ม" l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3XE0nPF4YkQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Great video! I'm glad that my analysis of the ornament loop was useful for you! Even though it will probably never exist, it's still a really cool element to study as a theoretical concept. I think the physics is pretty interesting 🤓
What if you took it just a little slower and controlled it the entire way through? Made the bottom part slower, then boosted the car back up? Maybe stop the car before (or rather after) the point where letting it go would be dangerous, let it swing around, then come back up? I think I can see this as at least something for a sort of flat ride.
All you have to do is take a teardrop loop and turn it 90 degrees. That way the lowest change in velocity is while upside down.
Dangerous g-forces have always been a concern with transitioning to inversions due to inconsistent and sudden apparent force shifts. That is why a vertical loop has been designed to be tear-shaped instead of circular-shaped as to make the g-force transition more gradual before reaching the top where it is the lest intense, which looks like someone is making the loop taller and more elongated. Since an "ornament loop" is the opposite of a "vertical loop", wouldn't it be safer to flatten such a loop concept? We see at 4:43 hints of how to fix the problem and the pretzel loop does have a flattened appearance. The only remaining question is how intense will the upward loop movement be? Theoretically, a wider turning radius is at the bottom of this loop where the train is at its fastest and a tighter turning radius is at the top where the train is at its slowest. This still has the design problem if a train valleys where it puts the riders uncomfortably upside-down for extended periods of time.
This is the epitome of "Roller Coaster 1 is too intense for me"
To quote one Jeff Goldblum: "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they never stopped to think if they should."
In all seriousness TPC, great work as always.
Nice reference! Love that quote!
@@992turbos Welcome....to Jurassic Park
The pretzel loop *is* the ornement loop with the clothoid (sort-of) applied.
The clothoid design is about reducing g-forces with larger radius on high g-forces sections : on a standard loop, that'd be at the entrance and exit. But on an ornement loop, that is on the bottom.
I got to experience what that loop would feel like irl and it SUCKED. On a portable technical park loop fighter my rotating row of seats got locked inverted so I was right side up at the top and upside down at the bottom and the blood rushing to your head going down face first was brutal. 1/10 wouldn’t recommend.
What ride was that?
@@keithstransitexperiences9749 the version I experienced was called the stinger.
was it just the G forces or does the full force of your body against the restraints also hurt.
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 both
As a coaster enthusiast. The thumbnail was automatically cursed
I remember designing a 500 foot, 200 mph air launch coaster with a top hat and ornament loop on it, all with lapbars. To this day, I still don’t know which part of it was the worst
Sounds like the kind of monstruosities i used to build in Planet Coaster.
sounds like an average one of my coasters
vitamin delicious but it doesn't kill u
oh wait it does
I absolutely love this content. You have no clue, study in G Forces on amusement rides is a massive interest of mine. I would love to see more videos like these. I predicted it would be to dangerous as the negative Gs would indeed be to dangerous for the general public. If you think about it, it would have to go into the element with quite a bit of speed to come out at q good speed. And yes you could make the exit of the element lower than the entrance but that would mean you would have to make it a tighter as it goes threw which only increases the negative Gs. I would think the only safe way it would work is if it went into the element slow but had some LSMs to give it enough speed to go back up. Like you said, this is a huge thing for fighter pilots, although I believe they train for much stronger positive Gs than anything. Using methods like training in a centrifuge, using a G suit, and learning the AGSM: Anti G Straining Maneuver. But anyways, it's definitely a very interesting concept and I would love to see more. Fantastic job to Theme Park Crazy and Art of Engineering.
absolutely, me too! I don't like riding rollercoasters but I love learning about them. This stuff fascinates me and I admire people who are thrillseekers and try to get as many crazy credits as possible.
**THROUGH**
When I was designing B&M flyers in Planet Coaster, my most recent concept, Necromancer, had a pretzel loop drop that, according to the heatmaps, pulled -4.30 vertical Gs. And that is probably because Planet Coaster is more about being a game than a professional simulator.
@@coastersaga I'm confused how you got negative Gs on a pretzel loop, was it the hill up and dive down into it?
Same
As soon as I looked at that loop, I said oh hell no. That many negative G’s could easily kill people. Planet Coaster really doesn’t deal with the dangers of g-forces though. Hell I’ve built rides with g-force numbers that would kill every passenger, and the game just says, “gee, that sure causes a lot nausea and fear”, lol.
I've played over 400 hours of Planco and never once thought to make a loop like that... now I'm intrigued to make some crazy elements and see if they are realistically possible.
th-cam.com/video/drpxHMD-iU8/w-d-xo.html
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I live in Australia, so that design wouldn't have any of those problems down here and would work totally fine.🙃
It would just be a normal loop to you
Why?
@@GeoTube9 the joke is that Australia is commonly said to be upside down since it’s down under, which would make this loop right side up if that were the case which it obviously isn’t as it’s just for laughs.
@@Russia_Moscow_countryhuman ohh
@@Russia_Moscow_countryhuman Thankyou for clearing that up!
i do this thing where i draw coaster layouts from a side perspective and this is something i’ve always thought about but never made bc i knew it wouldn’t be possible. and now there’s a video. love it
I just love how Planet Coaster let’s you stretch your imagination to build impossible stuff. I feel like the old RCT games limited too much. I mean yeah it’s more realistic, but it’s a game, we all wanna create deadly things in a rollercoaster game to satisfy our inner demons. 😂
I was a student pilot when I was young and I can tell you from experience any severe negative g experience is extremely unpleasant. I cannot explain the amount of pain. My instructor was an ex-fighter pilot one day he took me up in an old military trainer to show me why you did not want to do negative g maneuvers. We had been flying for about an hour when he ask me if I was ready to learn. I stupidly said yes! He pulled a 5 plus g negative maneuver. I don't remember what, I only know I don't want to do it again. I swear I thought my head was going to explode. I would never go on any roller coaster that did an outside loop!
4:33 at this point, you could shape the loop like a pretzel that has tighter radius at the entarance and exit and more gentle curvature at the bottom (kind of like flying coaster pretzel loops) that would supposedly make the train pull more negative G's when it is right side up conpared to when it is upside down similar to how vertical loops with clothoid in theory make riders feel more positive G's upside down compared to rightside up. But thats only possible in theory Considering that even the most perfectly designed clothoid loops can go near zero G's at the top and about 4-5 G's on the entarance and exit.
You can design clothoid loops to be G-force constant, but you can't do it with Pretzel loops but yes you have the right idea, that is exactly how it would be done. As far as I can tell, the Pretzel loop was an attempt to create a realistic ornament loop, it just doesn't quite look like one because of the shape at the top.
The Ornament Loop might work in an Axis Coaster. Then the forces will be positive as the car swings around.
What I did once, is I selected the pretzel loop on a sit-down coaster, then put swinging mine trains on the ride, and the element acted like a Norwegian loop (it was right after the first drop.)
Not impossible
And a 4d coaster too
There’s a few things that could help the realism and believability of this element. For one, changing the shape from a perfect circle to more of a bean shape helps minimize the centrifugal g forces at the bottom of the inversion. Also, using longer trains allows for the height of the center of mass of the train to not dip so low, meaning the train moves slower through the element. Making sure there are brakes that lead into the element also helps.
This is definitely one of those inversions I build in RCT when I’m bored out of mind. I’m a junkie for some extreme G’s but this is a bit much.
I’ve always wondered why this element wasn’t a thing. I saw your community post asking for feedback. I really enjoyed this video and would like to see similar content regarding different layouts and inversions and the history of them over time. Of course, mixed within your usual content. Great job!
I like this, well researched and a very comprehensible exposition to the many considerations within coaster physics
The head explosion scene from scanners.
kayaba akihiko: I'm just gonna keep that tabbed.
Great name for this element! Coincidentally, when I grow up, I'd actually thought of building that kind of loop. And when I got to know SooperDooperLooper more and more and remember seeing Manta's pretzel loop, I imagined that loop to be seen one day. And this was YEARS before I became an enthusiast in 2019. That was an astounding video, TPC(still being surpriesed out of this video) ! Now I know if I ever take a risk to make this element straight out of my imagination, I'll beware of those outcomes!
I do wonder if this element could be possible on a normal-train coaster (Overcoming the time limit of 1.5-4 seconds, and the risk of vallying), if it were on a multi-launch coaster?
Putting 1 or 2 boosters ahead (or even inside of the ornament-loop itself if possible), would allow the ride to guarantee the speed needed to clear the element, and allow it to get through it fast enough to prevent red-out risk (Assuming the element was designed/mapped to be smooth/small enough to keep the G-forces in check).
I applaud the creativity behind just flipping a simple loop upside down, it's one of those "so simple it's missed" things. That being said, I don't ever want to end up in the back of an ambulance, so no red outs for me thanks.
The Ornament Loop on a flyer isn’t as cool as the Pretzel. But think of this. Those double vertical loops on Arrow loopers. That as ornament loops on a flyer. Basically a double ornament loop. Obviously the second is smaller than the first. Or interlocking Ornament loops on a flyer.
Edit: the marketing possible for this would be awesome to see. Also, one or both loops could have the train follow the outside of the track like on invert’s loops.
I had the idea of a coaster with a figure 8 loop. In theory it looks awesome, in reality it’s definitely plausible with some assistance from magnetic launch systems in key sections of the track.
Technically, Shambala has a variation of that.
Schwartzkopf planned one decades ago. There's even a full render on youtube
This video really makes me wanna get Planet Coaster. It just seems so cool to make coasters that are literally impossible in real life like you explained. It was a very nice analysis btw the way!!
There are actually rides that simulate this loop. A certain pendulum flatride called inversion XXL (from Ordelman, a dutch funfair operator) that would stall at the top so that the ride gondolas would turn right side up. They would then be locked and the pendulum would rush back to the ground, which would make the riders rush past the ground upside down. It was a really cool but very extreme experience. I’m not sure if the ride still does this maneuver to this day as this was 5 years ago.
I remember going on a skyrocket 2 coaster in Lake Compounce, “Phobia Phear” every time I see a pov of it I always remember the fear and excitement of the ride.
*begins talking about greying out on coasters*
I305 INSTANTLY SHOWS UP
Wow !! That was some serious coaster building there! I learned something new today. The only thing missing was a comparison to food with the red out. Thanks for letting us in on this!
Sometimes I watch channels that cover train accidents and then I’ll watch rollercoaster stuff… I have way more interest in rollercoasters but honestly… they are so similar. And it’s crazy to think at one point in history, and even some ways still today, we couldn’t even make trains safe, and then we started turning them into screaming metal death traps, until eventually they became mostly safe roller coasters. Just such a weird evolution. I can’t imagine what it would’ve felt like to be the first person to ever ride a “rollercoaster.” Like “hey mom I road this train today, and it was on an incline, and it was fun.” 😂
I watched the entire video waiting for you to reference tatsu at six flags magic mountain. it has the exact same loop only it's for a flying coaster just like you talked about at the end of the video. indeed you go into the loop and come out of it still facing down so if the train ever stalled you'll be laying on your back the entire time.
This loop can only work probably if it was powered
I mean, yeah, it's possible. Oooooh, I know, call it the "Brain Bleeder"! That would be metal...
0:55 THERE I AM GARY THERE I AM
I was able to perform a dive under loop while riding a Ferris Wheel style flat ride at the fair called the Sky Diver. On that you had a steering wheel inside so you could position your car to do an undersided loop. Extremely intense but awesome as well. Thanks for posting this video as well.
Adding extra flips on both enterring and exiting on this loop can also make it become safe (it becomes a norwegian Loop
Wow! Thanks for commenting! Huge fan of your work documenting China's coasters. Keep up the excellent videos!
@@ThemeParkCrazy Due to sporadic COVID pandemics, both the park opening schedule and travel plan become unpredictable and have a great impact on my updates
@@MiyaPAMasane I wish you the best then.
An idea for a cool coaster inversion I have is the Broniek stall, named for my best friend Ashley Broniek. This element, which is basically a twisted Immelmann loop, starts as a junior Immelmann, but then it gets weird, stalling 90 degrees at the apex, before returning to level banking in the opposite direction. The track continues to twist in this direction until the track is upside down in a zero-g stall, this would pull laterals as well as positives, and then the negative Gs kick in during the stall. The track then twists out of the stall in the opposite direction to which it entered.
You ever have one of those moments where you never knew you needed something until you saw it? Well I want one of these loops
Your logo reminds me of an inverted ornament loop where you start inverted at the bottom. Maybe a half heartline roll into the element and then the loop?
If you ever had the chance to ask the art of engineering another question, I’d love to know how forceful a flying wing coaster would be.I can’t imagine the feeling a corkscrew or twist would give. Edit: (and it’s effect on the body)
Wouldn't X2 and the two other 4th dimension coasters qualify in some way...?
@@UwePieper it would be similar, however since the seats do not rotate in this weird concept in my head, I think the forces would be significantly higher.
@@leitakcoc The seating position doesn‘t change the forces. Only the direction of the forces on your body. The forces overall would be the same.
@@UwePieper that’s true. It definitely would give a weird sensation.
If you designed a 4th dimension coaster so that it only turns riders into the flying position then stays in that orientation the entire time, I think that it would count. If you invert the 4D coaster track you can get the guests to face forwards the whole ride, so the X2 controlled spin 4th dimension coaster can be either an "inverted" wing coaster or a flying wing coaster.
Great video! The only thing I think you missed out on is that you got so close to making the connection that the shape of a B&M pretzel loop is just the clothoid shape in reverse: a tight radius at the top where the speed and Gs are lower, and a large radius at the bottom where they're higher. This would have tied everything together really well at the end.
3:17 not much to say here, just glad to see one of our coasters get mentioned for once. I've greyed out on the pretzel loop on Superman, as well as on Batman while it was running in reverse. Fun times.
Very thankful for this channel teaching me that greying out on coasters isn't something to be THAT afraid of since that's why I've been avoiding them for a while. I blacked out ONCE and have been scared ever since even if it was just for a few seconds!
I'd also love to see more content on impossible coaster elements, this was very informative!
Yea greying out and blacking out isn't anything serious..it's still scary (I've never experienced it but it sounds scary) but at least it's nice to know it's not a health problem! I'd personally take a break after a coaster if I did either to make sure my body was fine after, I'm not sure how dangerous it is to ride again soon after greying/blacking out but I'd rather not find out.
Didn't Action Park essentially do a nearly perfect circle loop for their water ride and that turned into a disaster? People were getting stuck ON THE TOP, getting injured when their bodies and the force of the water tried to make them do the loop, and this was just a WATER RIDE, not a coaster that would have supports in order to give it extra power to make the complete circle. XD
Yeah, the instant the animation of that loop came up, before the narrator even mentioned consulting physicists or engineers, I thought, "That ought to blow the passengers' eyes right out of their sockets." Not to mention that the wheel assemblies and shoulder restraints would be subject to ungodly stresses. They'd have to be extremely robust and constantly inspected. If something failed, the ride would launch whatever got cut loose like a catapult, but it would kill people by making the blood pressure in their heads soar even if everything held together.
Honestly talking about the effects of the “Ornament Loop” made my head heart, haha!
Remember commenting on the post about red-outs and the forces involved. I wasn't aware of the standards that you spoke about so that was interesting to hear, about in line with what I thought. I'm surprised to hear that they allow for -2.8 though. I would think since -2 for a split second is the strongest I've heard of or seen anywhere that would be about the limit, maybe a tad higher. and -2 at 4 seconds..... that would be something else, probably uncomfortable. I'm not aware of anything that sustains for multiple seconds much under -1. Anything between -1 and -2 tends to be very short, even if part of a larger negative g force element. I do know of a couple rides in particular seats that hit close to 6g - some of the old Schwarzkopfs (the one at SFOT is close) and the inverted boomerang (back seat of Invertigo at King's Island - right at 6g if running fast, I've recorded it at 5.9x). Anaconda in the front also hits close to 6 g, I believe 5.8. I tried to lookup the actual force where redouts start to occur and I didn't find anything official, but a few references of approx -3g, so yeah, -2.8, crazy.
The closest real thing would be the Norwegian loop seen on Speed Monster and Fahrenheit, which makes it non-fatal by first flipping the riders the other way around so you're riding on the inside. Then the Gs are still positive. I suppose a flying-coaster pretzel loop would be another loop that you enter and exit at the top--there, the Gs can be even stronger because you're taking them through the chest like an astronaut.
I'm so happy I've rediscovered your channel, I can't wait to become a coaster nerd again hahah
When I was young I thought of a concept of a rollercoaster where all it was was a launch, straight track, and a loop, but the entire time after the launch the track would just rotate constantly so while going down the straight track you would be inverting and then it keeps going on the loop, so kind of like a non inverting loop, but the track twists constantly instead of once, would never exist and would have way to many forces but a funny concept
This could be possible with a non flying coaster the non inverting loop could work like this it goes down turns you up right turns up then finishes it something like this at 0:15
If any one manufacturer would try this concept, I think it would actually be Vekoma with their new flying coaster model. Theyre the main ones I could see innovation that much at the moment.
You can do a pretzel loop on a SIT DOWN COASTER
This is very common with Aerobatic pilots, but they start from the bottom
This gets me curious. What about things like bunny stalls? Or upside down bunny hills? Are those just as bad?
When I used to play Screamride, I made a coaster dubbed the ‘Michigan Monster’ (because I lived in Michigan at the time) which featured a lot of unbanked corners and stupidly high speeds. It caused all the riders to eject and I later deleted it.
I used to make those loops all the time on that same track. Always wondered if it was plausible
With brake elements on the 'loop' and a lower height at the exit than from the entry this element could be perhabs possible. 🤔
A powered vehicel with a controlled speed could pass this element as well.
Now what would an inside loop, with the center of rotation on the riders feet on an inverted coaster do?
If this loop was actually on a coaster, that would be insane.
No I don’t think Insane has one 😆
I love your content. It’s amazing. The ornament loop is a very nice and creative element. But I do agree with you that I don’t think it will come into fruition anytime soon. I would like to see it happen but I personally don’t think it will. And I would much prefer a traditional loop or zero g roll or any other inversion. My personal favorite inversion is the batwing. I love how forceful it is and it really gets your adrenaline going.
The maximum negative gs allowed is 2.8- with the exception of carnival rides, especially those that are not in America. I have experienced the motion of this "ornament loop" on a ride thats approximately 170 ft tall and 60mph at the apex, and simular sensations on rides that flip upside down too fast. Its so intense that it becomes uncomfortable and painful. The blood rushing to the head actually hurts, and your body is aggressively pressing into the restraints while the ride is trying really hard to throw you out. This can also produce blackouts and grayouts but It is more comfortable with positive gs for sure.
I have been wondering about this for a long time. Excellent video as always. I've wondered if this could be done in a bigger and slower design, but your explanation makes sense.
Funny, it looked like you used Intimidator 305 as an example of a coaster that makes people black out. The first time I rode it, the young woman next to me said, "hey, if I black out, don't worry about it. It just happens to me on this ride." I thought she was exaggerating, but sure enough, bottom of the drop she just went limp for half the ride.
This was so informative and something I never expected to learn about. Keep at it!
0:38 I can never wait to see the Preztel Loop (Upside-Down Vertical Loop) for both normal and inverted steel coasters in real life!! Not only for flying coasters.
I think that the concept is neat, but perhaps it could be done with a flying that comes in upside down, and does a corkscrew after coming out, resulting in you sitting up normally at the bottom. A chain lift could be built into the frame in such a way it could be engaged in the case of a bottoming out, but otherwise wouldn’t catch, not sure how that would work entirely but it’d be an easy way to overcome the bottoming out issue on the carts (which would be easier to unload since riders are sitting upright at the bottom). Just some thoughts. I, too, love the element and really like your choice of name for it, it fits.
The moment I heard the words “Red out” I mind immediately went “Holy shit, that sounds like some Masque of the Red Death stuff!”
I'm glad that that inversion never got made seeing that it would possibly kill people! Maybe I should think twice as to what roller coasters I should ride.
Fun fact from an engineering student, it's just ASTM International now. ASTM used to be the acronym you used, but they rebranded to be an international organization, and have worked to modify their language to reflect that.
Kind of sad this isn't possible to do since the ornament loop would be cool to see.
Yah I could see how this could be dangerous. I’ve heard of red outs before. And like you said the forces could be super damaging at the bottom of the loop. It honestly just sounds super uncomfortable even on a flying coaster.
You know, this element has always been on my mind! How did you read my mind? It would make sense that the ornament loop probably would unfortunately not work, becuase thinking back to what you said about all that stress put on it, it made me think, on a regular loop, the highest stress point is at the top, but with gravity, the train slows down before it hits the top, so the stress is less dramatic, but the ornament loop is the opposite way around. At the "peak" of the ornament loop(the bottom) you could be going at some dangerous speeds inside the inversion, that if are forceful enough could cause a derailment at the base.
To make a circular loop bearable you narrow it into a clothoid loop, it make an ornament loop bearable to widen it (just like the pretzel loop.) I am pretty sure that the pretzel loop is an attempt to create a realistic ornament loop. Also see the Norwegian loop, as it is as good as you're going to get on a standard sit down coaster.
I'm glad that Planet Coaster carries on the legacy of the RCT games in making roller coasters into death traps.
This is really cool! I love learning about what would and wouldn't work on Coasters!
I've never seen Scanners, but a red out really makes me think of bleeding from the eyes. Such a menacing name for an effect caused by negative gees.
This video tickled my fancy having grown up with Thrillville: Off The Rails. It had an element called the inverted loop available on certain in-game coaster types, and I always brushed it off as just another whacky idea. I had no idea it could actually be dangerous in some scenarios. Anyway, awesome video!
What flat ride/coaster types/coaster elements are on Thrillville: Off the Rails?
@@keithstransitexperiences9749 that's a list that may require way more than a YT comment to list out, but here'smy vest shot. Aside from the coaster elements in the game that defy physics, there are actually quite a few that are actually one-for-one recreated from real coasters (oblique loops, corkscrews, inline twists) or can be sort of "faked" (i.e. half of a corkscrew going one way and the other half going the opposite direction for a cutback, and the first half of a corkscrew plus the second half of a barrel roll *almost* makes a nice sidewinder). Flat rides? Among others (some that literally have no real life versions), the game featured old school ones like a rotor and a tilt-a-whirl, and some newer types like a Mondial Top Scan and a Zamparla Disko. (Coolest one imo was a behemoth rendition of the Nauta Bussink Evolution.) As for models of coasters, while their names all varied and some of the different ones had different sets of elements, many of them were based on the same real world model or general type (i.e. the models or templates called "Chasm Winch" and "Hover Roller" were both just variations of one another based on an Arrow suspended coaster, and I'm fairly certain that three different models were just variations of the Arrow custom looper track and elements with redesigned trains).
@@christianlewis6789 What were the coaster elements including ones that defied physics? Also, do you have Thrillville: Off the Rails so you can make a video of all elements and coaster types?
@@keithstransitexperiences9749 I can put together some videos over the next few days, I think that would be a bit more concise, if you're interested
@@christianlewis6789 That could work as long as I see all coaster types because that game has elegant coasters that wouldn't be possible.
I’ve grayed out a few times on multiple roller coasters, but now that I know how it happens it’s kinda scary. Like my eyes literally aren’t functioning well because there isn’t enough blood in them…
It's pretty freaky but at least it's not super concerning.
i love that you used footage from intimidator 305 when talking about greying out because i almost always grey out on that ride!! i think it's kinda fun actually
This is kinda facinating, kinda a stretch but you may have just invented another version of the euthanasia coaster
Can you do the POV of that coaster with the ornament loop and the flying coaster? I think that loop is possible on a 4D or Axis coaster.
Awww, I wish we could see a pretzel loop (like on flying coasters) on a sit-down coaster someday lol
I made something similar in planet coaster. It was a helix banked facing outward. It was way too intense. But I like strange elements
I have this loop in all of my floorless coasters in the game.
This is really awesome and so well-researched even though it’s about a Reddit post.
I rode a Booster-like flatride that would lock the gondola in such a way that it would be upside down at its lowest point- I suppose it's the closest to the Ornament-loop I'll ever get- and it was NOT pleasant. You're fighting against the forces the entire time.
A tamer version of that would be the S&S flyswat, that was a bit more fun as it didn't have as much speed or height
Great video! Love the shoutout to Mindbender. Definitely in my top 5 fav rides at Six Flags Over Georgia.
I find G Forces to be really awesome, but considering how intense pretzel loops are and they have a significantly wider pullout than this ornament loop, cannot imagine how intense the ornament loop would be
After thinking for a while, the ornament loop could be possible just with some slight changes to it like, probably being the first element on the ride, the first 90 degrees would need to have trim breaks on it and the last 180 degrees of the loop would need a launch. This would probably not pull more negative g’s than a ejector airtime moment.
Old video at this point but wanted to share - The interesting thing is that Planet Coaster actually does track these numbers in-game. Negative g's will be under your "min vertical" and "min forward" statistics in negative numbers. These can also be seen in heat maps - and no, not just the Fear one you showed, in which red fear can be from a number of things, but g-forces have their own heat maps that are white to dark purple, and if you have *any* of the darkest purple areas on your Planet Coaster track, it would likely be fatal irl. The game does not prevent you from making such a track, nor does it make it so no one will go on, and doesn't kill your in-game guests, but it *does* punish your excitement rating when above certain levels (that is, the game actually recognizes fatal g-forces and lowers the final excitement rating of the track to be lower than the overall track average).
I'm a little surprised by that conclusion.
I know negative g-forces are more dangerous to deal with, but I would have assumed this loop to be possible.
After all I've been on a ride that would drop you heads down in a circle from a height of about 60m and survived just fine.
If that is possible, why not some form of this loop?
This is such a fun way to get comments. I don’t feel pressured to say something, but I just want to. You have finally cracked the code. Good job.
This element looks absolutely insane, I can't imagine it on a long train
Would never get past the drawing board!
I've been playing planet coaster nonstop lately. So so versatile and involves so much weird and interesting problem solving lol
That kind of loop would be pretty kosher if it were non-inverting. If you wanted to commit to it, you could have it be braked on the way down and launched coming back around.
Used to gray out on Shockwave at 6 Flags in Gurnee IL all the time. I miss that ride
the closest we have gotten to an ornament loop is a pretzel loop, or that crazy drop on sdc/s&mc hurricanes and wild west express
This loop is a very interesting concept. The only coaster type I could see it possibly happen is the flyer, but the pretzel loop is very similar, so this loop is basically irrelevant.
The pretzel loop is this lol, it's a front-flip lol. And yeah, the stress and G-force on flying coasters during this element, is way less than if this was a sit down coaster