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Queerbaiting allegations against individual people seem to just enforce heteronormative standards. Harry Styles is “queerbaiting” for wearing a dress when we should be saying anyone can wear a dress for whatever reason. Bending gender norms is FINE. There’s nothing wrong with it. Doubling down on heteronormative standards only harms gender-diverse people like trans and NB people.
I think we as queer and trans people should reflect on how we're impacted growing up in heteronormative environments. Only when we start healing from our own trauma can we build a healthy view on life rather than becoming someone else's nightmare.
@@nightfire9193 Actually, you can see mostly gay men (from my experience) on just about any TH-cam post about Pride celebrations trying to get gay men be less loud. Sometimes they don’t identify as gay until you get in a discussion (sure those can just be trolls trying to win), but many of the times they will out themselves and their husband and then rake gay men for being to sexual or flamboyant because they hold conservative beliefs. And what about the lesbians against groomers on TH-cam or the LGB without the T folk? You can see this all playing out on TikTok too. Women promoting misogyny, black folk calling out black folk from a right-wing perspective, LGB people calling gay people today groomers, trans people agreeing with the discredited research about trans people. People making a buck or making a buck while agreeing with right-wing ideology. All of them are enforcing the patriarchy/gender norms. That said, I haven’t seen LGB folk that I know about attacking Harry for wearing a dress.
Tbh most gen z’ers weren’t there for it so it makes sense they don’t look back at what they view as ‘old’ internet history and learn from other’s mistakes. Most are on totally different social media and any older millennial who was into this drama prob never had the ability to analyze their decisions in the first place. It’s a skill not everyone learns
@@OkamiRose you're so right, but I often forget how significant that generation gap is. Like I'm always surprised when people say they don't know who Dan and Phil are. or don't know old significant pieces of internet culture history. but it makes sense that most gen Z are unfamiliar with those things just as I am unfamiliar with significant things that happen nowadays on Instagram or Tiktok
@@OkamiRose you're right about older people too. when I heard people were harassing Kit I assumed it was young kids, but I unfortunately stumbled across older members of the LGBT+ saying vile things. and when i say older, some were millennials sure, but some looked 60+ in their profile pictures. I think Rowan enlightened me in this video on why some much older lgbt+ ppl may have the distorted mentality of: if you're lgbt+ you have a moral obligation to come out or you're a disgrace to the community
Honestly, I've often felt there's something pretty homophobic about the way online queer communities deal with ostensibly queer individuals. Like, once you identify or are identified as queer, you are no longer considered a human being with your own identity, you only exist to reflect the fans experiences back to them, and if your experience differs from theirs that is considered a Personal Betrayal.
The amount of hate I've seen within the lgbtq community is unreal. One of the interactions I've seen that stick with me to this day is seeing lesbians be extrenely transphobic to someone who came out as a trans man because he "chose not to be gay" (he was in a relationship with a woman before and after coming out). It's honestly really upsetting. I'm aroace but I dislike referring to myself as that and I refuse to be counted as part of the queer community because aros and aces are invisible anyways. I don't personally care much about it but I've seen a lot of people similar to me who go to communities looking for acceptance, but are met with rejection. I haven't actually seen any ace/aro people say someone "isn't ace/isn't aro" because they don't match aro/ace stereotype but I have seen a number of non aro/ace people say it, which is always very fun and not annoying at all
One other thing I want to mention. As a gay man who came out relatively early in life (I was 15 when I came out to my parents and I came out to my community later that same year), even if everyone in your circle is incredibly supportive, being outed can still be traumatizing. I was outed three times in my life, and all three times, the people I was outed to were supportive, but that didn’t take away the panic and the sense of violation that came from not having any agency in people finding out that personal information about me
if there was one piece of advice I would brand into people's brains if I could, it's that somebody being out to you does not give you the right to out them to somebody else.
@@Wwhdduendjdhhfmwosdn same. I came out to my sister. She is bi. And just because she was out she felt she "knew" what was "best" for me and tried to out me for my mom. Same with my ex-best friend. She outted me to a bunch of people I don't even know, until it got to my sister, who told me about what she heard. After all that I managed to stay in the closet for most people till this day (because this is how I'm comfortable right now)
Yep. I came out as a lesbian late (in my early 30's) and was publicly outed by my male boss to a group of men I'd never met in the midst of a meeting. Being outed is absolutely traumatizing. ❤️
Genuinely! I came out to my sister and she didn’t even understand my sexuality even when I explained it to her multiple times on multiple occasions. Even though she didn’t even understand my identity she still thought it was okay to tell her friend who she was introducing me to 😑not only did she out me she didn’t even understand me
queerbaiting applies to media, not people. how you dress doesn't define your gender or sexuality, it's literally just a piece of fabric and paint. that's like saying a feminine lesbian or a masculine gay man are trying to bait straight men / women by not dressing "gay" enough. wear whatever makes you happy and don't let other people dictate it! your identity is none of their business♡
It doesn't apply to either because it's not real. It's a concept that ignorant children have forced into others. It's hard to ignore when it's being done to you, especially in a public manner.
@Eli they're human beings first. Therefore; they deserve privacy as any other person. What they choose to keep from the public eye is none of our business.
I agree, but the people who try to police it will argue that the incentives and disincentives applying to media companies applies to individual public figures also. Which is broadly true. So anyone who can be said to fall on both sides of the line is going to accused of queerbaiting for personal advantage. With the fallout landing most intensely on those who, like Kit Connor, refuse to claim a label under pressure. Because then they're seen as deliberately trying to stay on the both sides of the line. Deliberately being deceptive. What they're missing isn't that people could hypothetically act like that, but rather that being a bully to people over it can't ever be worth the cost.
I’m so happy you highlighted the biphobia/bi erasure which is prevalent among speculators. I honestly gagged when people assumed that Kit was straight because he went in a date with a girl. Like bi people exhist!!! Speculators are so prone to sorting people into gay/straight. I remember everyone being convinced that Conan Gray is gay because he’s gnc and put out a love song clearly about a boy ( dismissing even the slight possibility of him being bi lol).
It's the same people who think bi people are just confused gays partaking in compulsory heterosexuality, so unfortunately not very surprising they would stoop so low.
There is an argument to be made here that sometimes some people believe straight people can’t support the queer community if they’re not queer themselves. Taylor Swift openly supports legal rights for gay people and uses her platform to support the queer community and encourages people to vote for their rights. Some people believe it’s impossible for her to do that if SHE herself isn’t queer/bi. But the queer community NEEDS straight allies to cross the threshold of “us vs. them” Straight vs queer. Straight people also believe in queer rights and representation.
@@TheSwizzleFizzle "When it's like 'me-ee-ee', it's like dancers, cats, GAY PRIDE, people in country western boots. I start riding a unicorn, like just everything that makes me me!" -Taylor Swift discussing her music video for the song ME! (which she released as a single on lesbian visibility day), 2019
@@ttargaryen When "Todd In The Shadows" did his review of "You Need To Calm Down," he said that Taylor was coming across like she was equating her "hater" problem with homophobia.
There's such a big difference between saying that a Taylor Swift song can be read as queer and saying that she's secretly gay. I can understand that her songs about secret relationships come from how the media talked about her love life and still relate to them in a different way it's not that hard
The Man is pretty straightforward. But the love songs could be about anyone and that's perfectly fine. Other artists write songs about someone they broke up with 10 years ago and no one's trying to connect the dots like it's a puzzle to be solved.
I think a big part of the problem is so many online queer spaces are so inexorably linked with “shipping” and reading fictional media as queer (which is fine) that some people have been almost conditioned to where they can’t separate their existence as a queer person and their perception of media from that lens of looking for queer interpretations of things even insofar as it applies to real people. And while there is absolutely nothing wrong with reading fictional characters as queer, shipping is not activism but some people treat it like it is, so if you then go and tell these people hey deciding to objectify a real life person and speculate about their sexuality is invasive, you get treated like you’re homophobic and shutting down queer activism even when you yourself are gay
I´m just thinking about how Daniel Howell has been very open recently about how this exact "shipping culture" has ruined their lives and absolutely messed with their mental health, yet here we are 10 years later and people haven´t gotten any smarter
I think it's just the consequences of a new group of 13 year olds getting internet access. All the phan shippers grew up, finished puberty, and realized "hey...this is messed up". But now there's new preteens with parasocial relationships who will sadly repeat the same cycle.
I'm a closet lesbian and I swear to you, the amount of people that have asked me when I'm coming out if baffling, I've even had people saying that they have more expercience than me and are more "ahead" on the queer journey because they're not closeted anymore or that my parents wouldn't react horribly because theirs didn't. The thing is, I can't come out, I live in a very strict household, to say the least, and cannot support myself financially If I get kicked out (which is a very real possibility). Being in the closet is not a step to overcome, Is protection, It doesn't mean that I'm less queer than anyone else and people should never be forced to come out in any given circumstance.
"Ahead on the queer journey"??? I want to smack those people. When did queerness become a race or video game progression? All our journeys are different. Even two people with the same race, gender, sexuality, and hometown, will have vastly different experiences growing into who they become as adults. Turning people's lives into a competition invalidates everyone except for the chosen "best" or "farthest" few. And it will likely scare anyone in that circle who isn't out to the circle yet (or questioning and not sure enough to say), even farther into the closet.
Okay but you not coming out is not helping others who are in your position. The more people who come out, the easier it will be for people to come out. Stop hiding.
@@maybeimacat3183 Well apparently I exist for you because I'm not a coward and came out as soon as I discovered I was gay. Maybe if your parents are assholes, leave them. They aren't worth your time.
I agree entirely. Like, non-queer people (not even questioning) faking and playing up queerness to attract a queer audience is, obviously, bad. But they could be questioning, or closeted, or beyond heteronormative explanation, or figure it out along the way. You can't really say, for sure, that someone is lying unless you have them saying it themselves. So, people shouldn't make judgements about this kind of thing unless they know for sure.
Rowan talks about this point about 38 minutes in - observing that yes, but also that celebrities (talking specifically about the much-more-famous-than-kit examples of Taylor Swift and Harry Styles) exist both as people and as personas/brands. Pop stars lives have long been to some degree a performance which is an extension of their music - think rumors about 70s rocker bands' behavior in hotel rooms or whatever. And I don't think we can reasonably say that a pr team styling a celebrity as a bit queer in order to reach that audience has never been a thing. To be clear, not saying what happened to Kit is acceptable in anyway. But that the "real people" distinction is more complicated than it might seem at first glance.
@@michaeladkins6 I was unclear, curse my unnecessarily convoluted sentence structure. I also agree it is plausible that the One Direction management might have, and more generally that celebrity management teams have done this for some people even if it didn't specifically happen with Styles. Likely it's a bit of both, Styles is a bit swishy (no comment on his sexuality, just his preferred style) and his pr people / management / stylists have encouraged him to lean into that for the views.
Does anyone else remember what happened to Becky Albertalli author of Simon Vs homo sapiens agenda. She wrote the book based on her experience working with queer kids as a counselor I believe. Well after the movie and show were made she started getting a lot of hate and shit about how she's "straight" and taking queer stories. Que probably the most heartbreaking open letter I've ever read where she had to out herself as bi to stop all the hate. I get that people want representation, as a trans person myself I am ecstatic when someone in the public eye comes out. But I also understand that they don't have to! I would be happier with 20 trans actors I had no idea were trans over one openly trans actor. I just want us to exist without it being a spectacle. Everyone else gets to
@@heartlknj thank you! I commented when I started the vid and was getting ready for work, was in the midst of premiere at that time. Just wanted to get the jump on that convo if it hadn't been mentioned. I remember when that letter came out, I was fuming mad, I'm glad she talks about it!
She’s not the only YA author that’s happened to, either. Julie Murphy was forcibly outed because people were being awful about her book Ramona Blue. In Ramona Blue, protagonist Ramona is a teenager who identifies as lesbian, but then she develops feelings for a boy which helps her realize she’s actually bi. The book does a good job of showing how much of a spectrum sexuality is and that sometimes we realize that our labels have changed and that’s okay, but people brushed past the bi-ness and said it was saying that lesbians can be turned straight. Julie Murphy had to defend a book that’s shes said is very personal to her by publicly stating that she’s bi herself.
@@Amm2187_ to be fair lesbians "getting turned straight" is a problematic trope that still happens a ton in media. if youre going to do a story that hot button it helps to have some sort of disclaimer that this isnt what youre intending to do?
This is an excellent and important video! I also want to say that in addition to the bi erasure mentioned, the “if someone is showing any sort of affection toward someone else, they must be dating” mindset is incredibly harmful to aromantic/asexual people. If celebrities aren’t allowed to kiss their friends on the cheek without being accused of queerbaiting, what does that say to people in QPRs, or other close platonic relationships? “You’re not queer enough.”
Yeah, I relate strongly to bi people because the sorts of things that erase them also often erase ace and/or aro people. Now, if only they could also stop forgetting about us...
I agree and speaking as a queer allo (well possibly a bit demi but like closer to allo than the other end of that spectrum at least I would say) person also think it is messed up to assume that friends are lovers just because they actually love each other like, cuz they're friends and friends love each other?
Not to mention the fact that we are always trying to teach men and boys that it's okay to show affection yet the second they do, OMG they're gay and in love 🙄 How about we celebrate and promote beautiful friendships between males without destroying the concept of it entirely by immediately always making it sexual or romantic?
@@jeffersonhassan4558 Oh okay. Well, it reads both ways and my point applies in both cases. Allowing for affectionate platonic friendships between men and women without making it sexual or romantic is important too.
As a bi woman, I just want to thank you for highlighting the fact that so often these attitudes are rooted in intense biphobia. It's a big part of why I STILL have days where I don't feel like a valid part of the LGBTQ+ community. And why it took me 28 years to come out to my family. Videos like this are so important 💖💜💙
Correct. Not to mention, i'm somehow in a never ending state of "the only options in this world is either you are gay or straight" lmao biphobia eating me inside out.
As someone who is aro/ace, I've only been "apart of the community" when I came out as nonbinary it feels. Just because we don't get the same struggles as homoromantic/sexual people doesn't mean we don't have struggles and can "hide" easier. The problem with a lot of characters who are aro/ace, they get forced into a queer relationship because if you are single and not looking for a partner of the opposite gender, you have to be gay. Not anything else. Only gay or straight.
The "your fave is problematic" has really done a number on people's ability to be normal(=not an a-hole) online didn't it. As a long time tumblr user, this whole superiority of "only consuming unproblematic media" bothered me for ages. It clearly played a role in Kit Connor and Becky Albertalli being harassed by chronically online people who weaponize social justice causes to justify their bad behaviour. And now people mainly do this on much more public platforms than tumblr, like twitter and instagram, it gets to the people it's about even easier.
You know, for as long as there have been people and causes, there have been people on the fringe who weaponize causes. I don’t think they so much as justify their bad behavior but as they think they are righteous. (And yeah, ego might be at the center of the behavior, a need for self elevation, or they may completely believe their actions are “right.”) It’s like the religious right’s self-righteousness. Wish they understood the impact they have on the ‘cause they hope to promote. They think they’re helping but they’re not. Many of us invest time undoing much of the harm they levy. And then they see us as sellouts and hypocritical. It’s the moral righteousness this video addresses without using the word righteousness. I say that even as I agree that it’s morally appropriate and necessary to out politicians who promote homophobia and sign anti-LGBTQ legislation. People ought not be allowed to intentionally harm the community from the closet for personal and/or political gain (still talking about just politicians with that statement). Although, I’m never in a position to out a hateful politicians. Others might disagree with me entirely and they’re free to do so. I’d feel the same about someone who characterized poor people as takers and yet were on the take-they need to be exposed. While I think it is still valid to come out for political reasons, I still believe that the vast majority of us deserve to decide when and where if ever.
One of the biggest problems with identity politics is that people forget that victims can also become abusers. People have decided I am a queer person and therefore an oppressed minority (even if you have grown up in a time and place of relative comfort, safety, privilege and acceptance as a member of Gen Z as a middle class white kid in a left wing city and don’t experience the discrimination that was commonplace even 20 years ago) and therefore anything I do is morally right and morally justified especially if the target isn’t a minority. I am just one of the good guys and I am using the right language to justify my actions therefore my think is good. In reality these actions come from a deeply right wing fascist evangelical morally Puritan way of thinking that doesn’t align with queer theory and radical queer acceptance at all.
@@Wynneception I attended a top tier masters program focused on social sciences and ethics (one step below Ivy League). Our required ethics class literally taught that you were righteous if you did righteous things, or if you were more oppressed than oppressor. In the latter case, nothing you did could be held against you, and any evil you did was the fault of your oppressors. I wish I was making this up.
@@thrawncaedusl717 bruh, that's so weird. Holy crap, that saddens me. Where does breaking cycles of violence and trauma come into this? Seems like it would impossible with that line of thinking.
I did not spend my teenage years on tumblr in multiple fandoms that used queerbaiting heavily for marketing(sherlock, supernatural etc) for people to use queerbaiting to out real life people in 2022 Edit: I forgot to write “not” 😬
It also reminds me how there was this discourse around fanfic writers and how they need to tell everybody about their trauma in order to portray it in their fics
exactly. queerbaiting is for fictional characters in fictional stories that writers INTENTIONALLY orchestrate for marketing holllyyyyy shiii--- I understand that celebrities have PR teams and they do their own image making, but to honestly think that someone will live out queerbaiting just for their career is too jaded a view on life.
@@sandraisyearning not just fanfiction even, I still remember when people went after Jonny Sims (writer for The Magnus Archives) for his portrayal of substance abuse, so much so that he had to issue a public statement that the portrayal had been heavily inspired by personal experience. Really hideous
The closeted people trying to go in queer spaces/playing queer roles/etc are so courageous! To relatively safely explore these spaces should be absolutely allowed. Newly out I wanted to support my local queer centre and barely there I was asked how I identify. After asking why I should answer he just said that we're all the same here. Granted he was the only person this aggressive. I can't even imagine how brutal these kinds of gatekeeping on a social media/global level must be and to feel you have to stick to this once established label, especially at this young age like Kit Connor.
When I was still figuring out my sexuality and in the closet except to like two people I didn't feel like I belonged in queer spaces which is a shame because if you're still figuring out your sexuality talking to people with different experiences might help...
@@lilaboxx absolutely! That's why I love YT because there are queer spaces where I or others can explore themselves. But nothing beats talking to other people, you're right!
It’s sad to me that it’s come to this… I’ve been in queer spaces though where I’ve been harshly roasted because of looking straight and femme. I don’t judge other people nearly as harshly as i feel they’ve judged me in these situations… It shouldn’t be courageous and it bothers me. And yes, femmes can be them’s 😑
What I and so many others find problematic is going into these queer spaces, stealing the limelight, then retreating back into your comfortable straight white cis privilege, where as the rest of us don’t really get to do that.
@@mandoz353 i get where you're coming from but I'd rather have a questioning or closeted person have one safe space where they can be themselves / explore their identity than having none. I want people to be able to come to terms with their sexuality/ gender at their own timeline
Obligatory POC perspective: as non-western media becomes more globally accessible, the intersections of fandom habits can & HAVE had legitimately dangerous results for creators based outside of the West (& within, to a degree). The biggest examples I can think of are the fandoms of The Untamed and of Genshin Impact, both created in mainland China. The author that wrote Modao Zushi (which The Untamed is based on), MXTX, literally disappeared and could STILL be "missing" (it's hard to know for certain, given the geolocking of information in/out of mainland CN). It is largely assumed that MXTX was outed for creating queer content online by rival authors &/or their fanbases, resulting in government detainment IRL. MXTX's books are explicitly homosexual: this makes their publication illegal, in Mainland China. Since the works were published under a pseudonym, online, it is difficult to discern from outside of China whether MXTX is safe or indefinitely "missing". Western fans should not forget that AO3 was banned in China not too long ago, partly "inspired" by the huge popularity of the Untamed series. That series actively used queerbaiting tactics whilst the repurcussions fell on the disappeared MXTX and one of its male leads getting blacklisted from local sponsorships (alongside getting publically harassed for his alleged relationship or lack thereof with his co-star). Genshin Impact is made by a company called HoYoVerse that has and continues to heavily queercode its characters. Their first "big" game, Honkai Impact, was able to do so quite extensively because of its genre and its being based in Japan. The developers and CN actors for Genshin Impact, however, are based in Mainland China. What is harmless fun for western fans is financially dangerous for employees in China, especially for named writers and CN voice actors. There is a big feeling of dissonance between the western & eastern fandoms of these works, their expectations with respect to representation and its lack, and it is all escalated by layers of translation: translating mainland Chinese language and culture to a global audience, recently diasporic asians translating CN to non-asians, asia-based fans countering asian diaspora, all groups being countered by louder voices with bigger platforms who report/discuss these works as they would any other (western) work of their shared "genre". ...and this is all in reference to creating queer FICTION, explicit and otherwise. the legal, financial, and personal repurcussions of outing CN-based persons as being queer in their private lives, away from public image, is... very scary to think about. The recent protests against COVID restrictions, which most infamously prevented firefighters from entering a burning building and the subsequent death toll, created genuine concern and belief that there might be a repeat of the Tianmeng Square Incident of the 1980's. Internet fandoms are global creatures but individual creators are not: basic human rights are still new or conditional, outside & even within the West. It's something that should very much be kept in mind, especially as more and more non-western works become popular globally.
MXTX was not detained, she is fine and literally just informed us she was working on the audiobook of Heaven's Official Blessing which had 100k words added over the original publication, which was why she disappeared as she was working on that on top of her next novel which is going to be contemporary romance.
@@dotkiarika1026 there are too few details to really know why MXTX disappeared for 2 years (resurfacing in December 2021). One english-speaking fan, "Mercyandmagic", wrote an extensive post relaying their efforts to discern why MXTX went missing & the rumours of her being detained, sources included. Their investigation was very thorough but unable to confirm nor deny allegations either way. Things they WERE able to confirm? Pornography is illegal in mainland China & it is not uncommon for homosexual romance to be deemed pornographic or otherwise "obscene" by police and courts. Danmei writers often have their work reported and are forced to lock chapters from view. Danmei is typically printed in Taiwan but, since Taiwan uses Traditional script whilst Mainland China uses Simplified Chinese... it is common for printings to be made & sold on a smaller scale, in-person or through Taobao. It is these printings and sales that gets Mainland Chinese writers successfully convicted when more serious crimes (such as "publishing pornographic material", [obscenity], [sale to minors], etc) are dropped. In 2018, the danmei writer Tianyi was sentenced to 10.5 years in prison for "the illegal publishing of pornography". Prior to her outing and detainment, Tianyi had been actively harassed and threatened by a rival writer & her own anti-fans from 2017. Her appeal for a lighter sentence was rejected. On May 23rd 2019, the offices for JJWXC (the publishing site used by MXTX, Priest, Meatbun Doesn't Eat Meat, other danmei writers, and thousands more writers in other genres) were raided as part of a "crackdown" by the "Anti-Pornography and Illegal Activities Office". Danmei genres were, if not targeted, closed afterward. Throughout 2019, many people involved with danmei (writers, publishers, taobao store owners, printers, delivery personnel, anyone at all involved in shipping and packaging, the friends thereof) were outed and trialed in People's Courts. The conviction rate in that year was 99.965%. So. It is LIKELY that MXTX was detained at some point during the 2 years she was missing - unless you are a lawyer or close family, Mainland Chinese police do not allow people to know who they hold in custody. Friends, publishers, voice actors - they were as uncertain and worried as fans, mostly staying silent when asked. An arrest does not mean a criminal charge and neither mean that the arrested person will be sentenced or imprisoned. "Detainment" is the indefinite period where persons vanish, in this case due to being investigated by police. "Detainment" is also applicable in reference to persons confined to government facilities because of testing positively for COVID, a practice that has only recently ended and only after mass public protest. Your reply inspired me to recheck my sources and find more recent online appearances by MXTX, including the "was online and outside of custody in December 2021". Since the current printings of TCGF are still from MXTX's unrevised version of the story, it's still uncertain whether MXTX is wholly free or if they are on some form of probation. Hopefully MXTX and those around them are living freely, safely, and ANONYMOUSLY.
On a lesser scale, even in places where making queer content is slightly more accepted (as in, it won't get you in trouble with the law), different cultures have different ways of approaching queerness in media. Different tropes and story structures, different ideas of what a queer person might look or act or speak like, different ideas of what gender roles might entail, etc. I think it's really important when analyzing queer media from other cultures to keep an open mind and to make sure you're not approaching it solely from your own culture's point of view.
I think this is so important to point out. Being outed as queer can be legitimately dangerous. Not just in China but even in more liberal countries there are still subsets of the population that want queer people gone by any means necessary. By insisting people come out you could actively be putting them in danger, and people really forget that. They get so wrapped up in “I want this cute queer couple to exist” or “I want this representation” they forget the real life violence and repercussions queer people can face.
When I was in high school, my friends, some of who were queer, would constantly speculate and joke about my sexuality. Every now and then they would try to get me to come out, by saying that it was okay and that I could trust them, or by trying to get me to hook up with girls at parties, even though I told them over and over again that I was straight, they either thought I was lying or that I just hadnt realized it yet, so obviously the way to handle that was to keep insisting. One day, one of said friends said she had feelings for me, and then everyone else put this enormous pressure on me and were genuinely angry and upset with me when I wouldn't go out with her. Now, the thing is, no I was not straight, but I was just starting to discover my sexuality and I was still at that stage where I simply hated who I was, I wasn't anywhere near ready to come out. The pressure they put on me made me feel horrible, because I just wanted to keep this part of me to myself for a little longer and I didn't know why they wouldn't just leave me alone with this, I should be the one who decides when I want to come out, not them. I absolutely hated myself for lying to them, but I couldn't do it yet, I wasn't ready. This resulted in the fact that when I did feel ready to come out, in senior year, and I told them that I was a lesbian, they were mad and upset with me. They made the whole thing about them, that I didn't trust them, that I lied to them, started questioning if I even valued our friendship. I went off on them after that, explaining why I only told them now, they apologized but I was done after that. Our sexuality and identity is ours to share, we get to decide when, who and even if we decide to tell. Trying to convince a person to come out, even if you think is for their benefit (it never is), is extremely harmful. If a person tells you they're straight or that they don't wish to talk about it, leave them alone, it doesn't matter if you feel like you know that they're not, it is their journey and you don't have the right to try to rush it. Ever.
@@xBINARYGODxpeople in college age can be pretty vulnerable and honestly anyone of any age would struggle to handle huge public scandals and harassment...How would you react in his shoes? 🤔
i’m only 7 mins in, but one of the biggest frustrations i had with the kit situation was that people a. were going hard on the bi erasure thing and b. it never occurred to these people that kit chose to audition to heartstopper, specifically for nick nelson, BECAUSE he related so hard to his struggles? something about it just irks me that people will try and cancel a teenager for going through what we all did as queen adolescents.
Plus in the text that was displayed on screen, allies were also encouraged to audition That’s another thing that bothers me, when people say you have to be either in the queer community or an enemy of it, instead of just allowing people to be the allies that they are. I also wish that were a much more acceptable mindset for people to understand, because I don’t know where I stand in terms of my sexuality. I might just be aroace. It’s possible. But then there’s those few people like my nonbinary sibling that try and pressure people like me into being gay, when that isn’t how it works. Idk, it’s just weird.
so did Harry with My Policeman, there were already proofs of him and interviews that showed how much he loved the book and wanted to play the role but still he faced scrutiny for it all because he was a "straight man" and he can't play a queer character, along side the queer baiting allegations
Even if Kit was straight he still has every right to play that role. Just like gay actors have every right to play straight characters. It's a job, it's an opportunity to get a check. Do people really want directors to look over perfectly good LGBT actors in order to find straight actors for a role and vice versa? Hell no. The whole point of acting is to become someone who is completely different from who you truly are. The idea that only LGBT actors can play LGBT characters, and only straight actors can play straight characters is barbaric and regressive.
This is such an important conversation. I feel so burned from the queer community as a bi woman that I’ve disengaged from a lot of things I used to actively enjoy in terms of queer culture. I feel scared to go into queer spaces. And someone near and dear to me has such terrible memories of bullying by people in the queer club at uni for being “straight” that he’s actively suppressing his own natural questioning process and attraction he’s disclosed to me. QUESTIONING, CLOSETED AND BI PEOPLE DESERVE SPACE IN THIS COMMUNITY!!
if it helps at all, there are definitely queer spaces that do make an effort to make everyone feel welcome. in the city i live, i go to a queer book club where people's identities are never demanded or assumed (we just go around a circle at the beginning and say our names and -- if, and only if, we'd like -- our pronouns); there's a queer coffee shop when anyone can come in and chill; there're lgbtq+ bars where people of all genders hang out and dance. not, of course, that that invalidates what you wrote about in your comment: more just me saying, i hope u get to experience queer spaces like that soon.
I'm rly sorry you and the other person you talked about who is important to you went through that I'm bi too and I rly like women as well as men (I have dreams about kissing them and stuff) but I feel like a lot of ppl just kinda assume I'm straight or "not that queer/bi" bcuz I haven't been with many women (even though the one I was that close to was an extremely important meaningful relationship for me) and it upsets me... I also feel like a guy inside sometimes and think I might be non-binary but I honestly just find having to navigate these discussions so exhausting (I'm also neurodivergent and have mental and physical health issues). I have only read the first two books of Heartstopper not watched the Netflix series apart from a couple of trailers but I really feel for Kit Connor as well :(
And others are similarly sick of people acting with moral superiority thinking they're so "nuanced" and "different" because they don't fit neatly into any sexuality category, thinking that they're better than out LGBT people. Maybe the people in the LGBT club similarly felt like they were being bullied by your friend.
@@ohBoyahandle I think they're trying to say that there could've easily been miscommunication, in either direction. I've had a friend before who was bullied for being straight, but knowing who they are, I could never know if they were actually bullied or not. They were someone who would stew in their own mind a lot, and would often take things out of context. They'd take positive experiences and twist them until they were actually negative all along. Kinda negative comments about a mutual friend being not great at what they're doing would accelerate into full on hate. My guess is this commentor has likely had similar experiences, and so is asking whether the friend had a chance of miscommunicating in a similar way.
As someone who took 36 years to figure out her sexuality (asexual) it's crazy to think people expect an 18-year-old to know it all. I'm still exploring labels and that's fine. People also tend to forget there's more 'flavours' than gay or straight out there. And you know, it's fine to fantasise about celebrities and artists being queer or not, but that's all it should be: a fantasy. It feels like some fanatic fans tend to forget their idols are a real person with real feelings and real life struggles and I find that pretty disturbing.
I thought I was Bi for a while until I got a crush on my friend and realized that I was Demi and hadn’t actually experienced attraction before at the age of 19, and now I don’t know if I’m straight or bi as I just haven’t had a ton of close relationships 🤷♀️
Speaking of forcing people to be out, here's an issue that can cause unintentional distress: pronouns. I've been in spaces where there was an expectation to give your pronouns when introducing yourself. Obviously, the point of the practice is to be welcoming and inclusive, so that people's identities are respected. That's good! However, because my gender identity is something I'm still working out, and that's not something I want to talk about publicly, I feel like I have to lie about my identity or just not give my pronouns. If I don't give my pronouns, I feel others question why not, and see me as perhaps not being comfortable with queer people. If I give the pronouns of my assigned gender, I feel like I'm lying to myself. I'm fine with others calling me by the pronouns of my assigned gender by assumption, but I don't like having to claim that identity as my own. It's hard to put it into words, but I guess it's the difference between a lie of omission and an outright falsehood. It's not the biggest deal in the world, but this rambling statement is just an attempt to articulate something I thought about when you were talking about unintended consequences.
You’ve explained that more eloquently than I’ve ever been able to! I also just feel very uncomfortable giving pronouns during class introductions just because I have no way of knowing if everyone in the class is actually cool or just going along with it because they’ve been asked to, and if I give pronouns that don’t necessarily line up with how people read me I might catch shit for it later. I vastly prefer to be able to make my own choice of who I’m comfortable with telling, and and when.
I get you. I don't mind people misgendering me that much but when I have to do it myself it's just the most horrible feeling. Like I now I don't look how I see myself, so I don't blame people using the pronouns of my agab but when I have to introduce myself with these pronouns I'm going directly against what I know to be true to myself.
Is there anything you would advise aspiring allies how to handle pronouns for people who feel as you do? Because all my learning up to this point tells me that guessing people’s pronouns is generally not kind or helpful to people with atypical gender identities. I could just always use ‘they’ for everyone until instructed otherwise. To avoid asking seems like a bridge too far for me though. Perhaps it’s more ok to ask in a low-key private setting, as opposed to in a group introduction?
@@samsprague3158 Personally I'd greatly prefer asking in a low-key private setting to a group introduction, but I really don't have a perfect answer to whether it's better in general to ask up front to normalize it or wait until you know someone to make sure they're comfortable with you. It's not a one shoe fits all situation, kinda like guide dogs vs people with dog allergies; neither side is wrong. I do think it's interesting though, that of the three of us in the replies, we're all fine with people using the pronouns usually associated with our agab as long as we don't have to affirm them. And I don't think I've ever met a trans or nb person who wasn't okay with someone getting their pronouns wrong as long as they're okay with being corrected and immediately switch to the correct pronouns.
I wonder whether saying, "You can use (for example) she/her for the moment". I'm assigning importance to the words and syntax: you aren't declaring yourselves as someone with she/her pronouns, but you *are* letting others know that you don't mind *for the moment* being called such. I'm so lucky I've never had to deal with this stuff, being 53 fix female although I'm not perfectly straight. Hope this helps and good luck y'all
Something that will forever bother me is that people won't let actors be actors. It's literally in their job description to portray things that they are not. Actually being that thing or lived experience definitely helps the portrayal, but good actors don't need it and it shouldn't be expected. Lived experience matters a bit more when it comes to writing it, but the experience can still be accurate and enjoyable without it, if the writer is dedicated to making it so. The mentality of sticking to your own needed to be thrown away decades ago
some of the best fiction about gay men like The Front Runner or The Charioteer or The Vampire Lestat or even Brokeback Mountain was written by hetero women..
People even do play people of different races and from different time periods and of different genders. It’s incredibly common in theatre for casts of say all cis men to play women, or for black actors to play white characters, or for casting to be racially blind. It is less common in film where depictions are expected to be photorealistic - where you are expected to LOOK like what you are playing, compared to theatre where it’s fine to imagine a totally different character. So it’s even still common now to have people play characters of different races and genders, as long as it doesn’t involve racist makeup or racist caricature it’s not considered inherently offensive. I think people have taken the issue of “blackface” and “brow face” as an issue in film and taken it out of context to where well because this issue with a unique historical and cultural context is an issue in the film industry, we can just refuse to use any kind of critical thinking whatsoever and assume that it’s always universally bad 100% of the time irrespective of historical context for an actor to play a character they don’t share qualities with. It’s more nuanced than that. 100 years in the future where roles for actors of colour are more common place in Hollywood it’s probably not going to be as big of a deal for a character who was brown in the novel to played by a white actor, because it will be a lot more common for what are now exclusively white roles to go to non white actors. This same thing applies to queer roles and queer actors.
I'm even seeing Daredevil's actor being roasted as bad representation because he isn't blind IRL, even though the version of blindness Daredevil has bears little to no resemblance to any real variations of blindness due to his superpowers. While I don't want to silence any blind people who have an issue with him, so far the content I've seen complaining about him has all been made by people who are not blind.
This is a really good point. I would also add if you truly believe 'love is love' than complaining about an actor connecting with a story as a love story regardless of who it is between seems antithetical. Of course that is how they connect with it. Yes there are issues with discrimination in casting but I'd like to see a world where queer people can play cis/het roles without being discriminated against rather than limiting them to only being able to play a role that reflects their life experiences.
Hetronormativity HAS to be a much bigger part of this conversation. Also the history of Queer Flagging and the idea of "coming out" which often is only for many queer people is only for straight/cis people because they don't need to come out.
the queer community has been suppressed and discriminated against for ages. now that there is a bit of representation and less discrimination (in some parts of the world at least) they start to put undue pressure on [young] people (not just in the public eye) to come out (mostly from within their community thus discriminating against their own). anonymity in social media makes this worse. the reasons for this deplorable behaviour hardly pass scrutiny. all agreed Kit did a stunning job as actor for the character Nick Nelson. the casting was perfect. all this talk about casting actors with personal traits matching their roles is not helpful if we want the best experiences to entertain us
@@embreis2257 but stop playing the victim. That is not true. Queer community being suppressed?? Look at edgy music culture since the 70s, look at emos in the 2000, and the power this queer stuff is having now on the internet is so big that can cost the job of people. And it is all due to some attention seeking teenagers....
@@ipercalisse579 but people are very scared of being put under those constraints again. and not everyone is nice to lgbt people. like. its illegal to be gay where i live. you can get a fee if you distribute "gay propaganda" (i.e. wearing rainbow stuff). it got better but it can and sometimes does get worse.
@@greynotchristian You'd rather... force a queer person to make a public announcement on their sexuality...? Like, deny them the right to keep their personal life private because they're gay...? Or you don't mean that and just misread the comment?
All queer people should be put of the closet. There shouldn't be such thing as the closet. I'm sick of closeted people ruining it for our people like me.
Really really really love your content. I'm a mostly straight dude in his 30s but was raised in a conservative, anti-acedemic family tied to the traveling community in the U.K. I was the first person in my family to finish high school (and subsequently college and a master's degree) even though I was expected to drop out and work for my dad at 14. I eventually moved to the other side of the world, work as an artist, and am in a mixed-race marriage (all of which was a "thing" for my family). It might sound strange but I've always felt a love, affiliation, and admiration for the LGBTQ community and their fight for acceptance. It's been an on-going source of inspiration for me. Your content has been great for allowing me to understand it further and to help rid myself of any leftover hangups from my upbringing. You've probably changed the way I'll raised my kids honestly, being sure to include books that feature same sex/non-straight cis couples.
Also, call me a cynic, but I suspect there's a reason these sorts of queer speculators are frequently more interested in the work of ostensibly straight artists than they are in the work of openly queer artists, in that openly queer artists tend to have the sort of messy individual private lives that real people of any sexuality have, whereas if a creator is still officially straight you can project the version of queerness that personally resonates for you without having to worry about their lived experience undermining it, if you will.
The standpoint of "a creator can't write about a marginalized person unless they're part of that marginalized community" is going to make representation so much harder to come by. A lot of mainstream media is made by cishet able bodied white men, and so by this logic most mainstream media can't have characters who are poc, queer, disabled, and/or women. I do think stories that focus on the specific experiences of these groups are often better told by members of those communities, but that doesn't mean that, say a cis person can't have a trans person in their story. Saying that you can't write about anyone outside your own experience is going to cause more harm than good imo. I would rather have mainstream representation of my identity made by people outside that experience than no representation at all in mainstream content.
The idea of, "You can't write what you aren't," that rose to prominence during the Tumblr fandom era is a rule that cannot possibly be followed if you actually want media of value. Stories need conflict to be good. That means writing characters that disagree with and challenge the author's viewpoint. But worse than that, it is a rule that ultimately enforces and bolsters both patriarchal and heteronormative viewpoints. Straight, white, cis men are already in power. They already primarily write about straight, white, cis men. They are not challenged by the concept of "You should only write stories about straight, white, cis men!" because that's what they've been doing for decades. The only people who are challenged by "You shouldn't write that!" are the ones whose voices are already marginalized. We hold POC, LGBT+ and female authors to impossible standards, then act surprised when the very people we set-up to fail do so.
Also, people who make mainstream media can colaborate with marginalized people. Actors and other colaborators can influence these projects and get oportunities
I'd say the real question is if the writing and portrayal are done *well.* It's one thing where we LGBT folks may have the advantage, in that we still grow up pretty constantly immersed in straightness, but even some well-meaning straight actors have had trouble actually understanding us from our own point of view, and not as a side-issue. But if they do a goo job, they do a good job.
That. And also, almost every story ever has characters from more than one identity. Like, I dunno, Sens8. The Wachowski sisters wrote a white lesbian trans woman as one of the lead roles, matching marginalized identity. But there's also a gay cis male latino man, which is a very different marginalized identity. Even creators with highly marginalized identities don't have *every* marginalized identity.
just because the majority of mainstream media is written by cishet, white, ablebodied men doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. We need to start seeing more diversity in writer’s rooms as well as the media we consume. To be clear, I do agree that writers should not be forbidden to writing outside their lived experiences, however even by your own admission, stories that focus on what its like to be part of a minority group are best written by those in that group. Stories that tackle the lived experiences of marginalized groups written by people outside those groups should always be treated as a rare exception to this rule, and should only be attempted by writers willing to do extensive research and have lots of conversations with people from the groups they’re writing about.
it sucks that in an age where we have lil nas x and many other vocal queer artists, we still want to expose these other celebrities for our own personal excitement.
@@Francesca-dr6cg i feel you, thats why im still not out as bi. i hate labels and i dont want to fit into any of them. for me sexuality and relationships is personal
Lil Nas X is also an example of a queer celeb who was outed. I was on twitter the day his (possibly underage) grindr nudes were leaked by fans of another artist who Lil Nas X had recently dethroned on the Billboard Top 100 charts. It was intentional and malicious and he shook it off so well that many people have forgotten.
A lot of bisexual people like myself don’t like to be open about our sexuality precisely because of illogical reactions and biphobia as illustrated in the video. It’s honestly easier to just let people assume I’m straight/gay rather than try to constantly affirm my true sexuality.
@@KateCat420 Not gonna lie when I got the notification of your comment (because you tagged me) I saw just the beginning of, "You can pry these coat hangers" and I was like: What? 😀 But, yeah no one is forcing you to come out if you don't want to. Actually, if you aren't in a place where coming out would be safe, it's recommended to stay in the closet. My person experience is I didn't see the point of staying in the closet once I figured it out. Most of my friends are queer anyways so they're extremely accepting. However, certainly family members I'm not out to. I will go out of my way to hide my queerness from them due to their biphobia / homophobia. I hate lying to my family but, for the time being, it's the best thing to do. That's another reason I didn't fully closet myself, I'd hate lying and keeping secrets from my friends and family. You're happy in the closet and I never really wanted to go in it because it makes me feel dishonest but, that is our individual queer experiences. People's experience being closeted are going to varying from person to person. Just like how people's families and peer reactions to people coming out with vary from different people's experiences. That's what makes the queer experience really interesting because no two people are going to have the exact same experience.
Definitely some real shit, most days I just say I'm gay, it's much easier to deal with and explain and means I suffer a lot less judgement from gay people. Only my closest friends know I'm bi and I think sometimes they forget it too and only remember when I actually express attraction to a woman.
I really, really hate it when people look at someone like Harry Styles and cry "queerbaiting." He's not queerbaiting. He's being himself. Queerbaiting is hinting that if you buy X (usually tickets/copies of visual media) you'll get explicitly queer content, but then the product doesn't deliver. A person just being who they are and not making it something they monetize is not queerbaiting. Harry is very accepting of LGBTQIA+ individuals and he frequently dresses and adorns himself in a very gender non-conforming way, but he has always said that his sexuality is between himself and his partner alone, and he has not expressed the desire to be seen and referred to as anything other than a man. What does that mean for his fans? Recognize, if you wish, that he is not the most typical cis-het man and his gender identity is probably not what we think of when we think cis male. He might be gender fluid or non-binary. He might be masc-leaning on the agender spectrum (much as I am fem-leaning on the agender spectrum. I proudly claim the label "demigirl.") He does not owe us confirmation of any of this.
The thing about Harry Styles is that he's very problematic with his queerness. But we don't have a specific word to describe it beside the word "queerbaiting" - which is not accurate in his case at all. Here's why Harry Styles is problematic with his queerness: First of all, he's an idiot. Like Miles Bron in Glass Onion, he's not as provocative, deep, or revolutionary as his marketing of a popstar makes him out to be (check out his disastrous Don't Worry Darling press interviews, and really listen to him answering questions. They honestly made no sense but tried really hard to be "deep"). But that doesn't stop him from running his mouth. He played a gay man role in another movie, My Policeman, and on his press tour, he hyped up his gay sex scene like something revolutionary and "not like other gay sex scenes". And... it was not. It was as basic as any throwaway gay sex scene you can find in any tv series with 2 gay people in it. Second of all, he's majorly benefited as some sort of a non-binary fashion trailblazer in the industry by *checking note* wearing dresses?! When in fact, he's not even the first famous guy to do it. The POC and queer community has been doing it for decades, but none of them were never as celebrated as Harry Styles by the fashion magazine industry. And that double standard really rubs mature queer people the wrong way. His ambiguity doesn't stop on his own identification, it's also describing to his own deafening silence on this very double standard he's very clearly benefited on it. Does he really supporting us on queer rights movement more than he's benefited *from* us for being a white male wearing silly dresses and being unfairly celebrated for *just* doing that?
@@mnp7922 "How about you people stop assuming that a man wearing a dress is some kind of a LGBTQ uniform" oH WE BLOODY WISH it is so. So we can finally stop seeing Harry Styles on some cover of the magazines like a second coming of fashion trailblazing. You completely missed the scale of the issues. I simply pointed out the double standards that other queer people of colors face while Harry, as a white male, actually benefited from. It's literally have nothing to do with "He's supposed to tell you his sexuality, isn't that it?", so don't be obtuse and sidetrack the conversation. He literally can use his platforms to uplift other queer individuals when the criticism came out, without being a part of the community or not. He chose not to and remain silent. That's deafening. We don't need him to him us how he identifies as, we need him to speak up about the clear double standards others are facing. And for the love of god, stop mansplaining us what gay sex should look like!
@@gumballz.9259 I think you've done well here to describe it. You've said "he's problematic because he's pretentious and runs his mouth unnecessarily, he hypes things up without substance to support the hype, and he benefits from his advantages without advocating for disadvantaged people". That bears literally no resemblance to queerbaiting, and using a word improperly, turning it into an empty buzzword, makes the word far less useful for actual communication of a problem. Harry Styles is rich, and white, and rich and white people are almost always pretentious hype artists, and almost always take their advantage for granted. That's not exclusive to the queer experience. Also he's not unfairly celebrated for wearing dresses or messing around with heteronormativity; he's unfairly celebrated because he was a part of 1D; he's an attractive, rich, pale male with a bit of talent and showmanship and a *lot of luck.* You've said that if a different person made those choices they wouldn't be as successful, well then, isn't it obvious that it's not those choices that are making Styles successful?
You literally covered ALL the bases with this one, this was such an incredible video! I discover new aspects of my identity all the time and have for over a decade, and I can't imagine how invasive and harmful it would feel to have that very nuanced, personal journey blasted all over the internet and picked apart by strangers. I understand that celebrities give up certain expectations of privacy, but essentially creating fan-fiction/headcanons about REAL PEOPLE is very uncomfortable behavior
I don't know you but I just want to say, I'm so proud of you for coming to terms with yourself and I hope this can be something of a second start at life where you can be you. I wish for that one day! Good luck with everything!
People keep trying to throw shade and low key reference whether or not I’m gay at work but I’m more petty than they are😂😂 it’s so aggravating but I kinda have fun flipping the topics and making them feel shitty about digging too much. They don’t choose for me. I would never grant them knowledge just because they ask.
I'm an asexual lesbian and wrote mlm fanfiction for YEARS, starting at the age of 11. did i know i was a lesbian when i started? fuck no, i thought "well I guess I'm attracted to these male characters so i must be straight" and went happily to write smut (yeah, at the age of 11, i swear i was ok). When i was 13 i became friends with a gay boy who, after finding out about my writing, proceeded to call me lots of names and suggest i fetishized gay men as a straight girl. I immediately responded "wait I'm not straight" and that was the moment when i realized that, well, i wasnt straight. After this, there was the whole journey of coming to terms with me actually being in the asexual spectrum, and the hate i got from fellow queer people for not being "gay enough" to have sex with women. I never felt safe or accepted in the queer community, and so to this day only my closest friends and family know of my sexuality. And i still write queer stories. I am TERRIFIED of the kind of treatment other authors have gotten for writing queer stories, and i can safely say that having to come out like that, under scrutiny, to defend yourself from hate? Traumatizing. I feel so, so sorry for Kit. He's a very strong guy.
I'm so so sorry about how you were treated! And to say to someone they're not "gay enough" especially from us queers... We really need to do better and accept people all over the spectrum. I really hate this kind of behavior. I truly hope you have better experiences in the future and good luck on your writing.
A surprising amount of hate for queer authors comes from within our own community. Some of it is very mixed in with misogyny. I've seen my fair share of gay men complain about female authors - regardless of sexuality - daring to write queer male characters. Yet those same gay men have no issue whatsoever when straight, cis men write about lesbians. Nor do they even care about the overt sexualization of queer women chronically done by male writers. It's just plain, old misogyny dressing up as queer activism. Because it is still just them saying "All male authors are automatically valid at all times, but women must always prove themselves."
I had a similar experience too when I was younger and used to write in-fandom mlm stories. We shouldn't gatekeep private exploration like such if it isn't harming anyone and such elements of romanticisation/sexualisation aren't then subjected onto real people outside of fanfiction and similar creative spaces. I, for one, am not completely sure I'm cis, and so I used to explore that community perhaps to find male solidarity and options for if I am a mlm person. That sort of exploration is extremely important and we shouldn't gatekeep someone from an activity just because their supposed, unconfirmed identity may not traditionally align with that activity or community space. I think that time was very much me "testing the waters" in order to understand my place in the world and attractions. I can definitely say that the shipping I engaged in has allowed me to piece together my romantic attractions and demisexuality. Something else to add, a man is never questioned over the sexual entertainment they engage with, and so that is something important to consider in reference to this treatment of assumed non-men.
I have a lot of sympathy for Harry Styles, regardless of whom he may be attracted to or how he may choose to label himself. I wasn't out to myself at 17 and the thought of people speculating about my sexuality was a HUGE source of stress. I can't imagine what it must have been like being in the public eye and faced with such unhinged speculation about my sexuality and my relationship with somebody I was around all the time from thousands of fans online at such a young age. People begrudge him for refusing to put a label on his sexuality but, having endured tumblr during the peak of 1D's fame, I cannot blame him for wanting to avoid giving the public any concrete details to use to fetishize and objectify him further after seeing some of the truly repulsive things people were saying about him
The thing I find strange about the Gaylor conspiracy is that she has told us her sexuality when Lover came out. In Vogue 2019 she said:“I didn't realize until recently that I could advocate for a community that I'm not a part of” regarding the LGBT+ community. Shes told us shes straight and people should respect that not speculate
That doesn't really make sense, she'd been advocating for the queer community well before the lover era (e.g. you can want who you want...) so it seems unlikely that quote is her labelling herself as straight
@@deb8376She was not even remotely as vocal about it until lover era though let’s not act dense. She had always been supportive of the lgbtq community especially in lyrics but not to the level of YNTCD
@@deb8376 how is that quote not labeling herself as straight?? she’s quite literally saying she’s not a part of the community. and she’s said it more times since then.
@@maddiegrace3262 The sentence before that was something like "Rights are being taken away from everyone who is not a straight white man." Since she is a woman, has somewhat advocated for feminism and has publicly been pro-LGBT since 2008/09 we can assume that she was referring to people of colour. She wasn't very vocal before that point, sure, but she isn't exactly being vocal now either.
Oh my gosh I have this distinct memory of this one time while I was at work and Cole Sprouse and Lili Rinehart (Jughead and Betty from Riverdale) came by - they were very nice, and my manager always appreciates it if we can ask to snap a quick photo (no posing or anything, just ‘can I get a photo for social media?’ ‘sure!’ ‘thanks!’ *smile* *snap* ‘have a good one!’) of any celebs who come in for our wall (case by case, of course - just if it seems like they won’t mind and won’t be mobbed) so I asked, they were very gracious, and I accidentally got a very cute little gif instead of a photo of the two of them going in for a friendly hug. Little did I know that there were two opposing camps as to whether Cole Sprouse was dating her or his other costar KJ Apa (Archie) and when I innocently posted it online, mentioned how cute I thought the accidental gif had come out, and thanked them for stopping by (again, I had asked specifically for a photo to pop on social media) my - or rather, the store’s - notes BLEW UP, and I got dozens of messages either asking if they seemed like a couple or accusing me of being in on some sort of conspiracy. WILD shit. I was just trying to make our shop look cool!
@@jellogirl2010 My understanding from the whole experience was that they definitely weren’t publicly dating at the time, and whether they were a couple when I met them or not is something I don’t know and have zero means of speculating on even if I wanted to, which I obviously don’t LOL
this is sort of an aside but I think it's interesting to see the difference between the thriving communities around conspiracies like gaylor, vs the treatment of black openly queer artists specifically, along with other non-white queer artists. people will pour over swift lyrics to find evidence of queer subtext, but black female rappers and rnb singers (megan, cardi b, and ice spice, just to name a few) will talk openly about queerness in their music, but are either completely ignored, or accused of queerbaiting. we can easily guess that a lot of it has to do with racist bias against how these women choose to express their sexuality in their music (it's certainly a lot more explicit and hypersexual, but nonetheless queer). I'm so glad lil nas has been able to rise to fame as an openly gay pop star. you can't and shouldn't try to force anyone to be a fan of someone's music, but it's certainly disheartening to see constant debates online about harry styles' sexuality and representation in pop music when montero is literally RIGHT THERE next to him on the pop charts. and we know artists like keiynan lonsdale weren't as lucky, getting wrapped up in the queerbaiting discourse surrounding love, simon. I also think about the treatment of mitski on social media, how her song about dealing with white supremacy in interracial relationships was co-opted online by white wlw couples as something cutesy and lighthearted, and how she was treated when asking her fans to act more respectfully at her own concerts. this sounds kind of harsh, but I think some of this entitlement over celebrities personal lives extends beyond identifying with queer subtext, and into using queer subtext and social justice language as a shield to avoid unpacking the hierarchical media bubbles we live in.
mmmm I don't know Interesting point about the sapphic artists, and I'm not personally sure about it's race layer ... but the "male gaze" for lesbian shit is so very prevalent. To the point where, as a lesbian, some shit out there is so "for the men" that it literally is fucking straight. Like that rhianna music video with shakira. I don't even think that's sexy. It is not talked about (positively or at all) within the sapphic community. Which.... is probably because it's... *not* for us. The WAP music video, *REGARDLESS of cardi and megan's sexualities*, just seems *so* "male gaze"-y in the way they were shot. It's interesting the things that literally didn't even REGISTER as "gay" to me, when it was literally girls on top of each other, making out, whatever. Like that shit isn't gay to me. (and that's because it's for the straight people.) My gay shit is REAL shit (as what anyone wants), not hypersexualized lesbianism for men.
@@nternetrat i think i understand what you mean to a certain extent, but even in the case of queer people of color who openly exhibit and express their queerness in less sexual ways- they are seldom recognized for their queerness; it's always their race or ethnicity that's acknowledged first; even as a person who's not a celebrity [obviously] in many queer spaces i'm often seen as the "odd one out" as the way i present my queerness can be a lot different than how my caucasian friends do, mostly due to cultural differences; which is fine, of course, but it can be really invalidating for people to tell me: "i don't look queer" because of my box braids or that i look "too butch" because of the same thing even though i wear eccentric earring, cuff my jeans; ipresent as fairly fem, and yet i am still told i appear masculine; [on the few occasions i've been able to talk to other black queer people [or just people of color in general], they're able to see that i'm a lesbian right away and don't assume i'm a stud]; it's as if my blackness erases this all; on top of that, that white supremacy within the lesbian community is absolutely abhorrent [or at least where i live, and from what i've experience online]; so i wouldn't nescaryily say that race doesn't play a factor in this; so many people of color are overlooked and have their messages ignored within the context of their struggles even when related to the intersection of their queer identity, even when directly addressing or communing the lgbtq+ community edit: for clarity and grammar :p
@@zealouslyCantankerous mm. thank you for writing this. Are you talking about not being registered as queer to white people because race comes first? Explain if you want to, but just to clarify for myself... So you're saying that as a black person, your queer style is disregarded and not registered as queer to non black people simply because you're black? Or more specifically not really having a place in queer community as your style is also influenced by black culture?
I got into several discussions with Gaylors during my short stint on TikTok last year. Thank you for expressing my feelings so much more eloquently than I was ever able to. One additional aspect I’d like to add is how the people analyzing someone else’s life to “prove” said person’s queerness immediately asked me if I was queer when I objected. So not only do they speculate about and pressure celebrities to come out, there is also this inherent pressure for objectors to come out themselves to somehow prove they have a say in the matter, essentially putting them in the same position as Swift / Styles / Connor etc.
Part I 10:50 A Brief history of outing 11:05 Coming out as a political statement 13:29 Outing as a political act 15:40 The outing of celebrities Part II 20:51 Humor and self-identification Part III 25:08 The rhetoric of true believers Part IV 43:51 Why do people do that? Moral superiority Part V 1:00:30 The harm Part VI 1:08:30 Where do we go from here?
It reminds me of the absolute madness that happened when the "How I Met Your Mother" fandom and young men discovered their masc icon Barney was actual very very gay, it was a wild time.
i really really feel for the bi erasure, as a bi person. it's not coincidence that most of people you talked about are bi... being with a man really terrifies me now, mainly because i feel like people are gonna react to it as if im "actually hetero!" and that's not it. even if i'm with a man for the rest of my life the way i interact with the world has changed so much with me being bisexual, and aware of that bisexuality, that there is no way it won't be an important part of myself for the rest of my days... even if i date men. i'm bisexual at the end of the day in THAT relies my queerness.
Thank you for the video and for taking time to go through different arguments. It helped me to have clearer mind about the topic. And in process explained why I 've gotten recently so much anxiety and self doubt about my own identity and being not enough.
Okay this video makes me feel the need to share a story, so sorry in advance for the long comment: In college I had a friend who was part of a student-run musical theatre troupe with me, and for the first two years I knew him, everyone was always speculating, asking, and joking about his sexual orientation both to his face and behind his back. Most of these people were queer. They were all so convinced, based on his voice, his mannerisms, and his involvement with musical theatre, that he must be queer, despite the fact that he had explicitly told them all he was straight. For me, the first time I heard that he identified as straight was the last time I ever made a comment about his sexuality either to him or about him because, as far as I was concerned, when people tell you how you identify you need to take them at face value because either they're telling the truth as they currently understand it, or they have their reasons, which are none of your business, for being in the closet. I was honestly disgusted to find that my friends continued pestering him about it or joking about it when he wasn't around even after he had told everyone to stop and told them that he was straight multiple times. When I asked a friend about it, they said "we're just trying to help him feel comfortable enough to come out, cause, honestly, you know him - it's SO obvious." First of all, though I am far from immune to making assumptions about people's identities based on stereotypes, I was honestly furious at the idea that none of my queer friends could accept the idea of a cishet man with effeminate mannerisms and queer-seeming interests. Like, most of these friends identified somewhere on the non-binary spectrum and/or as bi or pansexual, aka groups that should know all about how harmful thinking in terms of rigid binaries and claiming certain characteristics MUST only belong to people with certain identities can be. And as for the idea that repeatedly asking invasive questions you have already been told to stop asking would make someone feel MORE comfortable and able to be their authentic self around you???? Nope. Not buying that. He was already surrounded by queer friends who were out and proud, what more could we have done to make him feel comfortable than just being ourselves and respecting his boundaries? So eventually he came out as gay, and told everyone in no uncertain terms that he had had been in the closet both because he wanted time to figure himself out without feeling like he'd labeled himself irreversibly, and also because he was not ready to be out to his family. And that he was coming out sooner than he would have chosen to because no one would leave him alone about it. And everyone felt pretty shitty. Anyway, I think about this friend a lot when I hear about people bugging celebrities about their identities. I mean, I think we all speculate. We all wonder. We'd all love to see more people like ourselves out there representing us. But questioning and closeted people exist and are a part of our community that need to be respected, and trying to force anyone - friend or public figure - to come out, violates the privacy, autonomy, and in many cases safety of people within these groups. Are there probably celebrities who wish they could be out but feel they can't be because of pressure from their management? I'm sure there are. But there's really no way for us to know the difference between them and someone who hasn't figured their identity out yet, or someone who feels unsafe coming out, or someone who just wants some damn privacy. So when I feel frustrated at an actress I think is straight taking a queer role, or a singer I think is obviously queer refusing to acknowledge it, I think about my friend who had a TERRIBLE coming out experience, not because of homophobic reactions from straight people, but because of the behavior of his queer friends who had deluded themselves into thinking they were being supportive, when really they just wanted to be right. Anyway, sorry for the rambling comment. As always, this was an insightful and informative video essay that I very much enjoyed watching, even if the subject discussed makes me feel extremely icky.
you must be new on the internet, from what I've seen, it's the other way around^^ gaysayers even put people who were married for 50 years and had 10 children into their dumb "30 celebs who were secretly gay"-videos.
@@Amphitera Are you new to the world? Maybe much of the internet is more gay-centered, sure. But I wasn't talking about the internet. The straight until proven gay thing is a very basic concept. Why else would gay people have to come out to their families??? Do straight people have to come out? I shouldn't have to explain that to you since you're just soooo bombarded by the gay agenda. You'd think you would've picked up on more of it.
you're absolutely right about your end point of this culture normalizing outing and speculation in real life. in middle school/early high school i really fucked up some friendships by speculating about people i knew. as a young queer kid who had seen this stuff modeled for me online i felt entitled to their identities. it was gross voyeuristic fun. it's been years but i still feel guilty about the things i said and did.
So happy you're talking about this! I just wanted to add some of my own experiences. I was a Larrie during my very early teen years (probably 12-14) and I started engaging with the theory around the same time I was questioning/coming to terms with being queer. The community aspect you touched on really rings true, as almost every other person there was also queer. I was drawn to this at a time when I was out to absolutely no one in my life, and felt super isolated, and I have genuinely positive memories being on twitter when the newest freddieismyqueen video dropped, or new lyrics were released to analyse together. It also felt kind of empowering to take these figure who was a big part of my childhood, and who were incredibly influential, and turn them into queer icons. So for me at least, that's what the draw was, and it was what kept me in the community, even though most of us knew deep down it was wrong.
I spent a lot of time in the past few years struggling to figure out my own identity. Am I straight, am I bi, am I cis, am I trans, am I asexual? All that pain and frustration of trying to find an identity that matched my experience vanished as soon as I let myself accept that I didn't have to put a label to any of it. There is so much talk in the queer community of sexual orientation as an identity that not having a sexual orientation could be mistaken as not having an identity, but that's so far from the truth. And it puts me in a strange position where it is actually not possible for me to come out, not because I'm still questioning, but because the answer has no name. I wonder how many celebrities have come out as gay or bi, despite not really fitting that, because they needed to put some name to it for their demanding fans, only to find themselves constrained by the label, their own complex identity being smoothed over and forced to conform.
Exactly. I spent quite some time when younger to question my identity. Was I straight, as I thought a long time? Was I gay since I sometimes liked girls? Funnily (not really) I had become convinced that "bi" didn't exist - only gay or straight were my possibilities. I never fit the label of a typical girl but I am clearly a girl, what's that all about? So on and so forth. The later teens and early twenties were for sure an interesting time... Kit Connor probably has a lot of years left to figure himself out and it's horrible that people are forcing him to put a definitive label on himself.
Wouldn't be surprise at all if later on Kit decided to change his label and suddenly everyone turned on him saying: "you lied", when they were the ones telling him to label himself in the first place
THANK YOU THIS IS WHAT I’VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY! “queerbaiting” refers to FICTIONAL stories, a real human person can’t queerbait, it’s called just being alive and doing what you want (ik it’s maybe different when money is involved, but you can act as gay [whatever tf that means] as you want)
This has been on my mind a lot lately as someone who is out to very few people in my life, I find it discouraging that people defend the speculation they are doing because they are celebrities and technically brands, but they only feel comfortable to know every detail of the famous person sexuality and don't think critically about how this will translate to people trying to come out or figure out their sexuality and the difficulties it adds to their journey .
I also think there’s a discussion here as to what is considered ‘coming out’. I feel like there’s a pressure on celebrities to use a label, to speak about their sexuality all the time. But realistically, that’s not how most of us come out or live, especially outside of the US and it’s strict narratives around it. Most of my ‘coming outs’ have been flippant jokes, or a well timed “well…”. I would definitely consider saying “I don’t use labels” as properly coming out. There are many celebrities that I consider very much out because of things they’ve said casually. I just don’t go around then assuming who they’ve been in a relationship with and if I am wrong then it’s no big deal
When I was in high school, specifically 11th grade, there were suddenly 3 separate, completely random people asking my friends behind my back if I was a lesbian. All because I had one friend in particular with whom I spent lunch, hung out after school, and happened to share a couple classes. Normal friend stuff. The problem with their speculation was that it felt accusatory, and made me feel very negatively toward the word lesbian and toward any question I already had about my sexuality. As a result, I was 22 before I finally accepted my attraction to women, and 25 and in my first relationship (with a woman, but also with anyone), that I was finally comfortable to call myself a lesbian. The funny? Sad? part of it all, was not only was I not attracted to the friend that everyone accused me of being, but I also might have been able to come to terms with my sexuality, personally, a lot sooner had those people just kept their thoughts to themselves. Now, to imagine that the 3 people who did that to me, were writing fanfiction, or tabloid articles, or were hundreds of thousands of people all calling themselves my fans. I honestly don't know what that would have done to my mental health.
For me, the conversation around this is so incredibly frustrating. Because I never came out. But I'm also not closeted. I just date people, openly, regardless of gender, and I have been since I was 14. I made that decision because thats how it should be? We shouldn't have to come out. We shouldn't have to make some big declaration to *anyone* about our preferences except maybe the people we want to date. It should be just, normal to date people. And then people suddenly start making this huge ordeal about someone maybe not being queer and playing a queer character as if queer people have never convincingly played straight characters or straight people played queer characters or something. It doesn't matter? Just let people date who they wanna date
I've ranted about this on other videos before, but as a femme bisexual who is only ever in visibly queer relationships, it pisses me off how there seems to be a lot of people out here who vilify straight passing relationships. Like, being bisexual and not ending up in the gayest possible relationship isn't bad representation or a betrayal of queerness. It's literally just life. Also, taking this to another level when it's actual people doing something as innocent as holding hands with someone of the opposite gender is just...wow. And another thing, putting pressure on men in queer spaces to end up with other queer men for your personal gratification is creepy and reeks of misogyny. I almost never see the same kind of pressure aimed at queer women unless TERFs are involved. I'm hoping that these people are just desperate teens who will grow out of this and regret what they're doing. We all know forcing people out of the closet is bad. That includes actors, writers, artists. Clearly, we're no longer in the era where portraying a queer person gets you clout. I'm content to assume that people who participate in queer media have a connection to it. We're not entitled to know what that connection is.
sadly that pressure definitely does get applied to bi women as well - people acted like aubrey plaza had personally spit in their faces and called them a slur when she got married to a man
@@friday13thirteen yeah i've noticed this too--a lot of openly bi women who are public figures and in straight-presenting relationships get treated like they've betrayed all their sapphic fans
@@friday13thirteen 100%.To clarify, it's not that I think the pressure doesn't happen with bi women. I think there's an added layer of fetishism with men in queer spaces (that aren't lesbian specific) that makes it happen more often. At least, it makes it happen more visibly. Sort of the queer fantasy equivalent of lesbian p*rn except it comes up in all types of consumable media. I don't know if I'm explaining it right. I think this has a lot to do with shipping culture. Because, yeah, lesbian spaces for bisexual women are treacherous af. Those were the kinds of TERFs I was thinking of. Maybe it's because I'm in trans spaces too (I'm nb), but I definitely feel that one of these groups is held in higher esteem than the other outside of sapphic specific spaces. Regardless, it's all toxic AF and needs to stop.
I remember being in fandom spaces in the early 00s and there being some LotR fans being way too invested in trying to ship the actors together. There were all kind of conspiracies, like their managers/PR stopping them from being out so they were “sending secret messages” only those “in the know” could pick it up. It came off ridiculous back then to me and it is sad to see it continue on with other fandoms/celebrities.
The only i would change in this video is that Harry IS unlabeled. He's talked about it on interviews and it's frustrating that everyone simply ignores that and keeps calling him straight (and it frustrated me more in this video considering that Harry has a lot in common with Kit with the difference being that Harry still prefers to be unlabeled despite everything, the similarities are even more present considering the press and promotion around My Policeman as a movie with a fully queer cast). His music isn't just "straight music that allow for queer readings" and repeating that line near the end sort of contributes to the toxic queer-speculation this video is critiquing.
I don't know if irony is the right word here but Alice Oseman's I Was Born For This literally talks about this. About fans overanalyzing the celebrity's every action, become so obsessed with their ships that they forget they are talking about real people, demanding they come out.
we need to remember that the algorithms on social media work like echo chambers, while it may seem that everything we interact with is queer-positive, the world isn't always as accepting. It's important we don't forget to have empathy for closeted people and make space for them in the community, make sure they feel welcomed and accepted. This means that we need to invite "straight" people into our circles (obviously not at the expense of our own well-being) and show them that we are a loving community.
An absolutely amazing video! The whole Kit Connor situation made me so sad honestly... It really does feel so indicative of the witch trials in a way, a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation where no one wins and we get no closer to feeling any safer or more liberated as a community...
I remember watching Sense8 on Netflix and Lito's storyline was that he was a closeted tv star being forced to come out. His character narrative was that he was a selfish man who would do anything to keep his "dirty" secret from the media and therefore he was labelled a coward by the show. His "arc" was him coming out, risking his entire career, to get his boyfriend back and save his friend from a bad situation she was in. It was so problematic, I didn't understand why people thought this was ok! Nobody should be shamed or punished for being in the closet, especially when there's a very real danger or harsh consequences for doing so.
There is also problem with amantonormativity and the idea that all interactions with people with "compatible gender" are, in some way, romantic. In seeking conformation of their theory, shippers took every sign of affection (eye contact, kiss on the cheek, buying things together) between their targets as proof of romance. It's incredibly limiting in what interactions you can have with people that are your friends, because if any gesture can be deemed "not platonic enough" for the public, what's left? Your relationships are under constant surveillance and it sounds terryfing. Fragment about hyper-analising every connection especially hit hard, not only because of this damned trope, but also because there shouldn't be any need to be hyper-vigilant in how you present during meeting with your friends. It's "friendzone" all over again.
As someone who was very unfortunately part of the whole larry stupidity, I can say that you hit the nail on the head here. It was creepy, and invasive and there were so many cognitive distortions going on all around me. It honestly felt like a cult, especially as I started to doubt when Louis had his son. I lost friends and people called me all sorts of shit for thinking we were being weird when fans actually got hands on this real birth certificate! I was never one to go post directly to their posts or to their aquantainces or girlfriends or anything like that, but what I did then was still very wrong. I engaged in that over-analysing and creepily moralistic idea that we were the only ones on their side. Also the rainbow bears shit was crazy. However, I feel like this experience has given me a good moral compass, albeit the hard way, when it comes to this. And I feel like there is some nuance missing in your video, though I defnitely agree with 90% of it. I think that many people who think Taylor might be gay, or Harry, or any kpop idol (especially interesting when you consider how conservative their environement is), are very often just observing a possibility. I have more often come across a more relaxed and neutral sort of speculation that is more an acknowldgement that it is possible, even probable, they are queer, without any sort of claim for absolute truth or a moral perspective on it. Especially in some fandoms with large homophobic sections, just fighting about the assumption that the celebrity has to be straight, is part of creating a safe-space for queer fans. I think that this kind of speculation, or reading of a public persona, is morally neutral as long as it doesn't come with any expectations on the person, or any willful distortion of reality. In fact, I think that being always aware that people can be queer, regardless of their public persona, is important to avoid hurting potentially closeted public people. It certainly would've helped in the case of Kit, if more people had come out saying that he might not be straight and he doesn't need to come out for that to be the case. When a celebrity or artist is using queer-coded imagery, celebrating that with the acnowldgement that it might be special to them too is better than completely ignoring it or worse, praising them for being an ally while violently "defending" them against accusations of being queer. For Kit, and for Harry, I feel they had both been pretty clear about the fact that they could be queer. That should've been more than enough for people to stop the harrassment. As many queer people in fandom know, the goal is to not assume anyone's sexuality, including straight.
This is very well put! I think it's particularly damaging to keep using the word "straight" for artists who have not labelled themselves. While Taylor has been vague about her position, Harry has explicitly rejected labels, and stated that he hasn't publicly been with women or men, so in calling him a "straight artist how may or may not come out" there is a reinforcement of heteronormativity and the assumption that queer people must perform coming out rituals. With Taylor swift, I think that the backlash against "gaylors" should actually be towards all fans who speculate about who she is dating as she has repeatedly expressed discomfort with that, and the reduction of her songs to one man as if it's a "paternity test".
@@neeliknowsnothing he's only been publicly with women. That's why is almost sure he's just queerbaiting cause his fanbase (straight teen girls) eat that shit up and gives him more clout.
@@JessicaCJones Queer BAITING includes stringing people along under teh hopes that it will eventually be revealed the person is gay. But it will never be your business to know the sexuality or personal information of a total stranger like a celebrity. The idea that you might be entitled to know that is para-social and gross.
I, admittedly, have my own headcanon; ships that I indulge in; but I have never (not ONCE) ever deluded myself into thinking that they are real. Especially when it comes to celebrities. I've always been the type of person who looks at it like this: If they are queer, good for them. If they are not, good for them. If they want to keep their sexuality to themselves, good for them. If they want to come out and are comfortable doing so, good for them. I don't need to know. And if they don't want me to know, they are under no obligation to tell me. I never understood fans who demand to know such things. Like, dude, mind your own effing business and let me mind mine.
Nothing gets my goat more then when I post my TS song analysis and gaylors call me delusional and homophobic bc I interpreted a song to be about a man and if I dare to point out their version of the song is also just their personal interpretation not fact I get dog piled on
Word. And I don't know about TS, but certainly some songwriters intentionally make their love songs gender-open not to signal something about their own sexuality, but to allow more people in the audience to identify with them / to make more space for covers. Maybe the reason TS is avoiding using "he" so much in her songs is to be welcoming to listeners who are currently into a not-"he" human.
I didn't know that happened with Fifth Harmony, and it makes me so sad. ☹️ I'm homeless right now, and, obviously, a women's shelter is not an affirming place. As an intersex person, I had to deal with speculation about my identity from the moment I got to the shelter. I've had to self-police the way I interact with other residents, especially in the shared shower space and when we're changing clothes in the morning and at night. I've seen the women police other residents who are visibly queer. And, some queer residents have even policed each other. It's all so exhausting.
Yess i keep seeing this kid on tik tok who i believe is only 13 and everyone in the comments saying he’s “zesty”aka gay (idk why) and he even said he wasnt gay. People will demand and assume something about someone they dont even know and even if they deny it people will still refuse to believe it.. same goes for when anyone says anything online. From a girl who’s naturally skinny but accused to having an ED to the couch guy thing on tik tok assuming someone is cheating, to assuming sexualities just by doing a tik tok dance or their voice. People need to STOP assuming things and believe in the person if they tell their truths.
People can think they are so entitled and insist they must know someone’s sexuality gender race identity relationship status religion etc.. entitlement is so dangerous and unnecessary
This is something I’ve been working on with my youngest and their friends. They are 12 and keep commenting on the sexuality of classmates as factual information when said classmates are not out. So, I’ve been teaching about how harmful assumptions can be and that they wouldn’t like it if it were happening to them. It’s even crazier to me because they are, in fact, closeted to the majority of these people themselves. I’ve also been trying to teach the whole group how self definition really works and I think I broke them all a bit, but I have at least planted a seed.
Just adding to the point about Harvey Milk (and the other gays of that generation calling for folks to come out). The call was always directed at grown-ass gay adults, not to teenagers. Milk himself didn't fully come out until his early 40s.
I loved heartstopper. It's a beautiful uplifting story and really helped pull me through a dark time. I was devastated when I saw people target this very young actor, like he owed them this information. It was horrible. I'm also sick of people misusing important concepts like gaslighting, grooming, and queerbaiting. It obscures these very real issues.
I've been saying for a while that I think a lot of it comes down to terminally online queer people and allies that have crafted their own safe spaces and are kind of losing their grip on the real life dangers of coming out. These safe spaces are crucial and important and life saving - in a lot of ways I am a big fan of them - but they can also kind of distort understanding about just how dangerous and disapproving the world still is towards many queer people. Like you said - there's this assumption that coming out is "easy" nowadays and that not doing it is harmful and I think many people who engage in that kind of thinking and the subsequent online harassment that follows are genuinely just terminally online kids who are so affirmed by their personal corner of the internet (and that's a beautiful thing!!!!) that they just lose sight of how bad things still are.
This really reminded me of what happened with Isobel Fall in the SF/F community (Tl;dr - unknown author writes controversial short story with trans themes, SF/F twitter including some big names turns into a frenzy speculating that Fall cannot possibly be trans, ultimately Fall, a trans woman, asks for the story to be removed and as far as we know, detransitions because of the trauma, many people on twitter, including some big names, maintain that they were in the right or just never apologise)
Right?! I’m a straight looking female and have been low key looked down upon in queer spaces or roasted harder than other people for not being queer enough. I identify as non binary and they/them and dress like a conservative (wearing below knee a line dresses almost exclusively) and am not seen as gay enough in queer spaces, but too queer in straight spaces. My partner is an immigrant and queer spaces feel safer to me because of being more liberal leaning. But being targeted due to being “normal enough” looking, attractive but not sexualized, and in a hetero relationship makes going to these spaces increasingly a source of anxiety for me. Not to mention a “normal” appearance is a well developed survival strategy I developed due to being alternative in just about every way. Helps to mask around dangerous people.
This has been on my mind for a little while since I saw articles speculating that a celebrity was gay just because she got a pixie cut. I'm so glad to see someone covering this, thank you!!
This video partly speaks to why I am personally uncomfortable with RPF. Fantasizing and making assumptions about someone’s private life (celebrity and non-celebrity alike) seems incredibly invasive and dismissive of that person as, well, a person. I’d be way more willing to engage with Kpop if it wasn’t such a slippery slope into depersonalizing these idols into dolls whose only purpose is to fit an aesthetic, kink, or ship. As it is, I have popular Kpop tags blocked and have even stopped listening to artists I used to like because I’m horrified at the possibility I may one day no longer see them as human beings.
I feel like someone in particular I don't see this talked about enough with is Katie McGrath. She's conventionally attractive, kind about ships that involve her characters, and plays queercoded or outright queer characters a lot so obvs people thirst over her and want to believe her playing queer roles is "authentic" representation as it were. But she's also such an intensely private person, with no social media presence, the most she ever pops up is occasionally on a friend or coworker's instagram every few months. And the way people have endlessly speculated about her sexuality in fandoms has made me so deeply uncomfortable, and it's so hard when I love her as an actress and want to follow her work but there is this small subset of fans that, since they can't harass her directly with her lack of social media presence, they harass the people around her. The incredibly racist shit that got thrown at Rahul Kohli and Mehcad Brookes for daring to be cast as love interests across from her in Supergirl and being friendly with her outside of work, Azie Tesfai being flooded with random questions about Katie when she was trying to do a serious livestream on BLM issues. There was even a very small but vitriolic side of the SG fandom that harassed Melissa Benoist and Chris Wood after they got together, operating under the delusion that Melissa and Katie were actually dating and Melissa dating and eventually marrying Chris was all a PR cover (considering how we now know her previous marriage before Chris was, it particularly sickens me that people wanted to so badly tear down her loving and healthy relationship with Chris just because of ships on the show). Katie's never been confirmed as dating any male costars she's been linked to so MUST be gay - it can't just be that any relationships she has been in, like everything else in her life, are kept private because that's what she's comfortable with.
What’s even funnier is that Emily Beckett Richards was right there dating Aisha Tyler all along but not a single person speculated about her being a WLW because she portrayed a straight character on TV and wasn’t part of any WLW ships. It really goes to show that this mentality is just born from shipping culture and fandom and is what happens when you mix that with a lack of boundaries and the same kind of right wing conspiracy theory mentality that leads people on the far right into things like QAnon. It’s not actually about finding actors who are queer. It’s about I WANT this person to be queer. I have reached the conclusion I want so I will look for evidence of my conclusion using the techniques I already apply to fictional TV shows. Nobody cares when actors are gay if they aren’t part of popular fandoms and ships, like nobody gives a single solitary shit that EBR is dating a woman like I said. She’s not part of the queer zeitgeist so her being out is totally unimportant to people. (Ironically she got harassed by straight people who thought she should marry her male co star in real life and thought she and Stephen Amell were in a real straight relationship)
I feel the same way. I found out about the racist comments against Rahul Kohli and Mehcad Brooks much later after it happened but I watched the whole ‘Chris-Melissa is a PR relationship’ thing go down pretty much live. And it was so disgusting. Especially when the comments continued even AFTER Melissa revealed her previous domestically abusive relationship and how Chris played a huge part in her healing due to his work with IDONTMIND. I actually do want someone to bring attention to this, probably with a video like this. But at the same time, doing it now will blow the whole thing into unimaginable proportions and that just feels wrong, especially bc of how intensely private Katie is
This is why shipping real people can become very murky very fast. Because instead of dealing with characters that exist inside enclose fictional universe; now real people are made to treat fan theories and speculation with gravitas that can potentially affect lives and relationships. Imagine you can't be friends with someone because it'll be taken a queerbaiting or signaling. That's gotta be rough
This seriously reminds me of the whole deal about Cavetown being outed. He was being cancelled for saying some bad things when he was like, 14 maybe? But people were going after him for saying a transphobic slur, and he was cornered and had to come out as trans to the whole world when he wasn't ready and was trying to go stealth. It was really sad, and it was super clear how awful he felt about having to out himself when he didn't want to come out. I think he's more comfortable now with being out to people and everything, so I guess things turned out alright in the end, but it was still awful how everything played out. We're here for you, Robin.
I’m straight and I have a queer friend who has been continuously trying to somehow convince me I’m gay for months now despite my obvious romantic relationship with the opposite gender. they’ve even gone so far as to flirt with me and ask me on multiple occasions if I liked them in that way, or I find them attractive, or if I actually wanted to be their partner. it’s so frustrating. yet when the news of kit came out they were reposting it on all of their social medias expressing how horrible these ppl who did this to him were. like what?
I came out pretty "late" in life and two vital elements of my coming out journey have been being able to explore my sexuality by writing about fictional characters and being surrounded by people (mostly queer but not only) who never EVER questioned my situation, even when it was borderline ridiculous to refer to myself as straight. I was absolutely horrified by the Kit Connor's situation. I completely understand engaging in speculation, writing and other fandom practices, the majority of the time people are writing/talking about others on the surface when said practices are actually about themselves, their comfort, their self-discovery and so on. You know, the golden rule of the fandom, "do what you like in the fandom but leave the poor real life people alone". But I was low-key shocked there are some queer people/fandom people out there legitimately convinced this level of harassment is ok. Thank you for covering the topic! 💙
I recently watched heartstopper and I teared up at connors role , as a bisexual myself I felt everything that I went through was real , and most importantly I was so happy that Charlie let Nick to come out when he was ready to do so because for me experience was totally opposite, I felt the pressure to come out to my friends to feel like a real bisexual, one my friends would always ask me why I didn't come out to my another friend and that would put me into real pressure cuz I wasn't really comfortable to come out to that person, as much as I hate coming out ppl that I'm not comfortable with I also hate ppl assuming sexuality and gender of other people by thier looks and behaviour which cleary mean nothing Once while speaking with my classmate I unknowingly spoke in a tone , in a very exaggerated way and it is one of my habits which I hadn't noticed until that classmate went - 'you speaking like gay and trans ppl do' and started laughing, I haven't come out to my parents or in public except few very very intimate friends , this made me really insecure and I started to notice everything I did henceforth and started changing everything , speculating that I was acting maybe a little bit too queer , sometimes I would panick that maybe I have come out unintentionally if someone figures out , it took me a while to get out of this and start being myself
Bisexual erasure is one of the things that irks me whenever people attempt to call out "queerbaiting". It's as if people forget that being queer is not just about liking the same gender. It's about celebrating sexual and gender differences. So many people try to gatekeep what it means to be queer or LGBTQ+. Not to mention, these same people will encourage others to explore but then when they actually do they are accused of queerbaiting or doing it for attention. This almost always happens to people identifying as bisexual.
Honestly, most of the time I see someone from the lgbtq+ talking about bisexuality I get the image that they want to see them dating a man and a woman at the same time to prove that they are bi because if it's only someone from a different sex is considered straight and if it's the same it's "one of us". And that's coming from a aroace, you know the ones that they try to pretend we don't exist too because "we are just confused" or "never had experience to be certain".
thank you so much for making this video. what happened to kit makes me so viscerally upset. the way the internet combines access to media and proximity to celebrity has made people feel so entitled towards things that they are not entitled to at all. people deeply identify with taylor's music or nick's character on heartstopper, and that feeling of being seen is great, but the identification can no longer stop at just the art. it MUST extend to the whole person. people use celebrity as a vessel for their own self actualization without any regard for or empathy towards the person who made that impactful art in the first place! (and beyond self actualization they may also use it as a form of social currency in fandom, which is even more disheartening). I saw a tweet earlier that seems disconnected but it made me think. apparently people were going on social media to talk about how they don't like sza's music anymore because they no longer relate to her lyrics about toxic relationships. the tweet rightfully pointed out that you don't need to identify with a piece of art to appreciate it, and I think the inverse is also true. if you DO identify with a piece of art, you don't need to look to the artist themselves for affirmation because the interpretation of the art is yours. queer readings are part of academia, they can be deeply personal and introspective, they don't need to spiral into conspiracies (you hit the nail on the head talking about easter eggs). I hope kit can find time to heal from this awful, frankly traumatic experience. also, completely unrelated but your hair and makeup look super rad in this vid, especially your eyebrows they fucking rule, thanks again for speaking on this rowan
Loved this video a lot! My thoughts regarding Gaylor and others have always been "meh, if they ever come out one day, good for them, if not why should I care, it's their lives, not mine". And, like, I get that we all want to be able to look up to people that share our identity and that for a long time queer celebrities were rare, but things have been changing, there are plenty of queer artists to support nowadays. It is very disheartening that we have reached a stage where people don't have a safe space to get through their queer journey at their own pace. Regarding the point about moral superiority, I'll only note that this seems to extend way beyond the queer community. There's this tendency nowadays to think that nobody is allowed to make mistakes. You've got a friend who tweeted something stupid and borderline racist ten years ago? Since you are still hanging out with that person, you are by definition racist! There's no nuance, no margin for error, and no place for change or progress. And that moral superiority is used a lot to harass random people and celebrities alike. Anyway, some people need to chill the f out.
A lot of your examples from the end are making me realize how queer *identity* (and the public performance of it) is being used as a proxy for a wide variety of experiences. I'm queer, and I wouldn't be remotely qualified to judge ball performances. "What's your experience with ball culture?" seems like a less invasive and better question to be asking someone in Jameela's position, if her suitability for the judging gig is in question. And I feel the same way about the person saying Albertalli had "no connection to the queer community"--how could you possibly know that? Her being straight wouldn't, hypothetically, mean she has no community connections any more than her being bi means she does have experience with or connections to the community. At the end of the day, an internal label doesn't have that much to do with the authenticity of the queer art you'll make *on its own*.
I honestly hate gender speculation. One very dear friend of mine was pretty feminine and soft-spoken... And people bullied him for being gay, which is just wrong, but the worst part is that the kid wasn't. He many times told me "I wish I were gay. I even tried to like guys so all of this would make sense, but I just don't know". At the end, he is asexual. But he doesn't know if he is really asexual or he ended up hating the idea of sex because he was forced to try to decide who he was attracted to when he was too young. A similar thing happened to me. I was so much labelled as "too masculine" that even my mom thought I could be lesbian. I knew I liked guys so I started questioned myself whether I was bi, even though I didn't feel sexual attraction towards girls but, "hey, everyone is saying I "must" like girls" because of how masculine I was (and my masculinity was mostly steaming from my tastes, I guess). I was actually just a tween when I had the "are you sure you are not gay?" conversation with my mom. What am I going to say at 12/13? If anyone is sure about anything at that age I'm sincerely happy for you, but it surely wasn't my case. So, yeah, it turned out I'm straight. Boring, cis, straight. But it was difficult. I even had sex with a girl once because I really wanted to know (and didn't enjoy it. Luckily I didn't harm her, I was very open with what I needed to test and she was totally in for it and we are still friends, but I still felt bad for "using her" like that 😢).
i don't remember when i had this convo with my mom, but at some point there was a non-binary character on one of her tv shows. we got to talking about how the actor also identified as non-binary and who should be allowed to play queer characters. she saw it ahead of time that restricting who could play a gay character would cause more people to be hurt especially if they weren't out. wild how my catholic mom who doesn't love that i'm bi saw this before i even clocked that it could lead to issues
I'm 68. I had no idea this crap was so pernicious. Hell, James Whale's direction of "Frankenstein " was intentional Queer allegory. Garland's "Rainbow " is still a Queer anthem. I agree with you. If these speculators, theorists and outright gossips used their powers for good, we could probably vanquish Queer and Trans hatred overnight. The missing element is respect. We see each other as products, not people.
So glad you mentioned what happened with Becky Albertalli, and I highly recommend her upcoming book that's inspired by that experience, Imogen Obviously. It's...basically about the exact topic of this video. I just read an advance copy last week and it was fantastic!
I feel like as a fan of any person we should have the mindset of "oh they are queer? good for them! I want them to be happy so I will support and cheer for them and whomever they love". It shouldn't be information we dig for and speculate about, if they wanna tell us thats super cool and we should be honoured- but if not we should be okay with that too:)
The Hozier part is spot-on. My girlfriend and I recently went to a concert of his and we kept spotting lesbian couples (we were in awe, as you can imagine). We had no idea he appealed to so many sapphics and the concert was delightful!
I’m against speculating people’s sexualities as a whole, it’s just not our business or our place. But the ones who do it while compiling out-of-context clips that allude to intimacy/lust are clearly acting out of self-indulgence and it stops being about “seeing” them. It doesn’t matter if those people are queer or adults, it’s so violating. You can appreciate and even enjoy the affection between your celebrities or idols without sexualizing it or doubting platonic affection.
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I meant queer Auto corrected
So cool to hear from the person who owns queerness!!!
@@Mountain_Biking_Vampire_Which Out of interest, did you watch the full video before commenting?
@Ville *GAY*
@@heekamalokilo7194 Did they delete their comments?
Queerbaiting allegations against individual people seem to just enforce heteronormative standards. Harry Styles is “queerbaiting” for wearing a dress when we should be saying anyone can wear a dress for whatever reason. Bending gender norms is FINE. There’s nothing wrong with it. Doubling down on heteronormative standards only harms gender-diverse people like trans and NB people.
But you dont see that this is coming from queer and trans in the first place...omg
I think we as queer and trans people should reflect on how we're impacted growing up in heteronormative environments. Only when we start healing from our own trauma can we build a healthy view on life rather than becoming someone else's nightmare.
@@ipercalisse579 Queer people are still people and prone to following bad ideas out of inertia just as much as cishet people are. Your point?
Yes!!!
@@nightfire9193 Actually, you can see mostly gay men (from my experience) on just about any TH-cam post about Pride celebrations trying to get gay men be less loud. Sometimes they don’t identify as gay until you get in a discussion (sure those can just be trolls trying to win), but many of the times they will out themselves and their husband and then rake gay men for being to sexual or flamboyant because they hold conservative beliefs. And what about the lesbians against groomers on TH-cam or the LGB without the T folk?
You can see this all playing out on TikTok too. Women promoting misogyny, black folk calling out black folk from a right-wing perspective, LGB people calling gay people today groomers, trans people agreeing with the discredited research about trans people. People making a buck or making a buck while agreeing with right-wing ideology.
All of them are enforcing the patriarchy/gender norms.
That said, I haven’t seen LGB folk that I know about attacking Harry for wearing a dress.
i genuinely thought we were over discussing people's sexuality after the dan and phil insanity going on tumblr back in the day
Yeah I wasn’t surprised at all to see Dan reference the Kit Connor situation in his recent video on parasocial relationships
@Ville BREAKING NEWS everyone is asexual now, no more sexuality for anyone
Tbh most gen z’ers weren’t there for it so it makes sense they don’t look back at what they view as ‘old’ internet history and learn from other’s mistakes. Most are on totally different social media and any older millennial who was into this drama prob never had the ability to analyze their decisions in the first place. It’s a skill not everyone learns
@@OkamiRose you're so right, but I often forget how significant that generation gap is. Like I'm always surprised when people say they don't know who Dan and Phil are. or don't know old significant pieces of internet culture history. but it makes sense that most gen Z are unfamiliar with those things just as I am unfamiliar with significant things that happen nowadays on Instagram or Tiktok
@@OkamiRose you're right about older people too. when I heard people were harassing Kit I assumed it was young kids, but I unfortunately stumbled across older members of the LGBT+ saying vile things. and when i say older, some were millennials sure, but some looked 60+ in their profile pictures. I think Rowan enlightened me in this video on why some much older lgbt+ ppl may have the distorted mentality of: if you're lgbt+ you have a moral obligation to come out or you're a disgrace to the community
Honestly, I've often felt there's something pretty homophobic about the way online queer communities deal with ostensibly queer individuals. Like, once you identify or are identified as queer, you are no longer considered a human being with your own identity, you only exist to reflect the fans experiences back to them, and if your experience differs from theirs that is considered a Personal Betrayal.
Yep. That's the queer fascism, dude.
I think people confuse "feeling seen" through onscreen representation with being externally validated.
The amount of hate I've seen within the lgbtq community is unreal. One of the interactions I've seen that stick with me to this day is seeing lesbians be extrenely transphobic to someone who came out as a trans man because he "chose not to be gay" (he was in a relationship with a woman before and after coming out). It's honestly really upsetting.
I'm aroace but I dislike referring to myself as that and I refuse to be counted as part of the queer community because aros and aces are invisible anyways. I don't personally care much about it but I've seen a lot of people similar to me who go to communities looking for acceptance, but are met with rejection.
I haven't actually seen any ace/aro people say someone "isn't ace/isn't aro" because they don't match aro/ace stereotype but I have seen a number of non aro/ace people say it, which is always very fun and not annoying at all
You just described every celebrities fanbase not just queer celebrities
@@ipercalisse579 "queer fascism" words mean nothing to you lmao
One other thing I want to mention. As a gay man who came out relatively early in life (I was 15 when I came out to my parents and I came out to my community later that same year), even if everyone in your circle is incredibly supportive, being outed can still be traumatizing. I was outed three times in my life, and all three times, the people I was outed to were supportive, but that didn’t take away the panic and the sense of violation that came from not having any agency in people finding out that personal information about me
if there was one piece of advice I would brand into people's brains if I could, it's that somebody being out to you does not give you the right to out them to somebody else.
Same
@@Wwhdduendjdhhfmwosdn same. I came out to my sister. She is bi. And just because she was out she felt she "knew" what was "best" for me and tried to out me for my mom. Same with my ex-best friend. She outted me to a bunch of people I don't even know, until it got to my sister, who told me about what she heard. After all that I managed to stay in the closet for most people till this day (because this is how I'm comfortable right now)
Yep. I came out as a lesbian late (in my early 30's) and was publicly outed by my male boss to a group of men I'd never met in the midst of a meeting. Being outed is absolutely traumatizing. ❤️
Genuinely! I came out to my sister and she didn’t even understand my sexuality even when I explained it to her multiple times on multiple occasions. Even though she didn’t even understand my identity she still thought it was okay to tell her friend who she was introducing me to 😑not only did she out me she didn’t even understand me
queerbaiting applies to media, not people.
how you dress doesn't define your gender or sexuality, it's literally just a piece of fabric and paint. that's like saying a feminine lesbian or a masculine gay man are trying to bait straight men / women by not dressing "gay" enough.
wear whatever makes you happy and don't let other people dictate it! your identity is none of their business♡
It doesn't apply to either because it's not real. It's a concept that ignorant children have forced into others. It's hard to ignore when it's being done to you, especially in a public manner.
But these people are in the media. They’re celebrities.
@@mr.dr0bot731 it's real on fictional stuff, most people don't know what it actually id
@Eli they're human beings first. Therefore; they deserve privacy as any other person. What they choose to keep from the public eye is none of our business.
I agree, but the people who try to police it will argue that the incentives and disincentives applying to media companies applies to individual public figures also. Which is broadly true. So anyone who can be said to fall on both sides of the line is going to accused of queerbaiting for personal advantage. With the fallout landing most intensely on those who, like Kit Connor, refuse to claim a label under pressure. Because then they're seen as deliberately trying to stay on the both sides of the line. Deliberately being deceptive.
What they're missing isn't that people could hypothetically act like that, but rather that being a bully to people over it can't ever be worth the cost.
I’m so happy you highlighted the biphobia/bi erasure which is prevalent among speculators.
I honestly gagged when people assumed that Kit was straight because he went in a date with a girl. Like bi people exhist!!!
Speculators are so prone to sorting people into gay/straight. I remember everyone being convinced that Conan Gray is gay because he’s gnc and put out a love song clearly about a boy ( dismissing even the slight possibility of him being bi lol).
they totally forgot the entire meaning of the show lol
People often 'forget' that Freddie Mercury and David Bowie were both bi and instead were put into the gay and straight categories respectfully
It's the same people who think bi people are just confused gays partaking in compulsory heterosexuality, so unfortunately not very surprising they would stoop so low.
Not even on a date, just had a picture where he was holding hands, no context
It wasn't even a date, it was one (1) single (1) handholding video with the costar of one of his later projects.
There is an argument to be made here that sometimes some people believe straight people can’t support the queer community if they’re not queer themselves. Taylor Swift openly supports legal rights for gay people and uses her platform to support the queer community and encourages people to vote for their rights. Some people believe it’s impossible for her to do that if SHE herself isn’t queer/bi. But the queer community NEEDS straight allies to cross the threshold of “us vs. them” Straight vs queer. Straight people also believe in queer rights and representation.
“I didn't realize until recently that I could advocate for a community that I'm not a part of.”- Taylor Swift, 2019
@@TheSwizzleFizzle "I, and also the gays, have too many haters." - Taylor Swift, 2019
@@NJGuy1973 bye she said that?😭 where i need to see
@@TheSwizzleFizzle "When it's like 'me-ee-ee', it's like dancers, cats, GAY PRIDE, people in country western boots. I start riding a unicorn, like just everything that makes me me!" -Taylor Swift discussing her music video for the song ME! (which she released as a single on lesbian visibility day), 2019
@@ttargaryen When "Todd In The Shadows" did his review of "You Need To Calm Down," he said that Taylor was coming across like she was equating her "hater" problem with homophobia.
There's such a big difference between saying that a Taylor Swift song can be read as queer and saying that she's secretly gay. I can understand that her songs about secret relationships come from how the media talked about her love life and still relate to them in a different way it's not that hard
Right, people can relate to a song without having to relate to what the song was written about. Feelings and situations cross over each other.
The Man is pretty straightforward. But the love songs could be about anyone and that's perfectly fine. Other artists write songs about someone they broke up with 10 years ago and no one's trying to connect the dots like it's a puzzle to be solved.
I think a big part of the problem is so many online queer spaces are so inexorably linked with “shipping” and reading fictional media as queer (which is fine) that some people have been almost conditioned to where they can’t separate their existence as a queer person and their perception of media from that lens of looking for queer interpretations of things even insofar as it applies to real people. And while there is absolutely nothing wrong with reading fictional characters as queer, shipping is not activism but some people treat it like it is, so if you then go and tell these people hey deciding to objectify a real life person and speculate about their sexuality is invasive, you get treated like you’re homophobic and shutting down queer activism even when you yourself are gay
@@Fucorii Honestly Larries come off more homophobic than anyone they call homophobic (even if both people are LGBTQ).
@@Wynneception Alright, I want you to be my new best friend. You said it all, bravo.
I´m just thinking about how Daniel Howell has been very open recently about how this exact "shipping culture" has ruined their lives and absolutely messed with their mental health, yet here we are 10 years later and people haven´t gotten any smarter
People is going more dumb than ever today
All the more reason shipping needs to die... It leads to this sort of shit.
I think “shipping” fictional characters is fine, the problem is when they start shipping the actors themselves
I don't think shipping is a problem. Obsession and invasions of privacy however are
I think it's just the consequences of a new group of 13 year olds getting internet access. All the phan shippers grew up, finished puberty, and realized "hey...this is messed up". But now there's new preteens with parasocial relationships who will sadly repeat the same cycle.
I'm a closet lesbian and I swear to you, the amount of people that have asked me when I'm coming out if baffling, I've even had people saying that they have more expercience than me and are more "ahead" on the queer journey because they're not closeted anymore or that my parents wouldn't react horribly because theirs didn't. The thing is, I can't come out, I live in a very strict household, to say the least, and cannot support myself financially If I get kicked out (which is a very real possibility). Being in the closet is not a step to overcome, Is protection, It doesn't mean that I'm less queer than anyone else and people should never be forced to come out in any given circumstance.
"Ahead on the queer journey"??? I want to smack those people. When did queerness become a race or video game progression? All our journeys are different. Even two people with the same race, gender, sexuality, and hometown, will have vastly different experiences growing into who they become as adults.
Turning people's lives into a competition invalidates everyone except for the chosen "best" or "farthest" few. And it will likely scare anyone in that circle who isn't out to the circle yet (or questioning and not sure enough to say), even farther into the closet.
@@HumbleWooper Its just the "goldstar" gays rebranding. Its gross af and needs to die in all its forms
Okay but you not coming out is not helping others who are in your position. The more people who come out, the easier it will be for people to come out. Stop hiding.
@@OzCroc I don't exist for you
@@maybeimacat3183 Well apparently I exist for you because I'm not a coward and came out as soon as I discovered I was gay. Maybe if your parents are assholes, leave them. They aren't worth your time.
We just need to stop using the word "queerbaiting" for real people
I agree entirely.
Like, non-queer people (not even questioning) faking and playing up queerness to attract a queer audience is, obviously, bad.
But they could be questioning, or closeted, or beyond heteronormative explanation, or figure it out along the way.
You can't really say, for sure, that someone is lying unless you have them saying it themselves.
So, people shouldn't make judgements about this kind of thing unless they know for sure.
Rowan talks about this point about 38 minutes in - observing that yes, but also that celebrities (talking specifically about the much-more-famous-than-kit examples of Taylor Swift and Harry Styles) exist both as people and as personas/brands. Pop stars lives have long been to some degree a performance which is an extension of their music - think rumors about 70s rocker bands' behavior in hotel rooms or whatever. And I don't think we can reasonably say that a pr team styling a celebrity as a bit queer in order to reach that audience has never been a thing.
To be clear, not saying what happened to Kit is acceptable in anyway. But that the "real people" distinction is more complicated than it might seem at first glance.
@@camipco I disagree on that. The One Direction management might have.
@@michaeladkins6 I was unclear, curse my unnecessarily convoluted sentence structure. I also agree it is plausible that the One Direction management might have, and more generally that celebrity management teams have done this for some people even if it didn't specifically happen with Styles. Likely it's a bit of both, Styles is a bit swishy (no comment on his sexuality, just his preferred style) and his pr people / management / stylists have encouraged him to lean into that for the views.
Agreed.
Does anyone else remember what happened to Becky Albertalli author of Simon Vs homo sapiens agenda. She wrote the book based on her experience working with queer kids as a counselor I believe. Well after the movie and show were made she started getting a lot of hate and shit about how she's "straight" and taking queer stories. Que probably the most heartbreaking open letter I've ever read where she had to out herself as bi to stop all the hate.
I get that people want representation, as a trans person myself I am ecstatic when someone in the public eye comes out. But I also understand that they don't have to! I would be happier with 20 trans actors I had no idea were trans over one openly trans actor. I just want us to exist without it being a spectacle. Everyone else gets to
You’ve probably got this already but anyone else reading- Rowan mentions this at 51:08
Yes - Rowan does talk about Becky Albertalli towards the end of the video.
@@heartlknj thank you! I commented when I started the vid and was getting ready for work, was in the midst of premiere at that time. Just wanted to get the jump on that convo if it hadn't been mentioned. I remember when that letter came out, I was fuming mad, I'm glad she talks about it!
She’s not the only YA author that’s happened to, either. Julie Murphy was forcibly outed because people were being awful about her book Ramona Blue. In Ramona Blue, protagonist Ramona is a teenager who identifies as lesbian, but then she develops feelings for a boy which helps her realize she’s actually bi. The book does a good job of showing how much of a spectrum sexuality is and that sometimes we realize that our labels have changed and that’s okay, but people brushed past the bi-ness and said it was saying that lesbians can be turned straight. Julie Murphy had to defend a book that’s shes said is very personal to her by publicly stating that she’s bi herself.
@@Amm2187_ to be fair lesbians "getting turned straight" is a problematic trope that still happens a ton in media. if youre going to do a story that hot button it helps to have some sort of disclaimer that this isnt what youre intending to do?
This is an excellent and important video! I also want to say that in addition to the bi erasure mentioned, the “if someone is showing any sort of affection toward someone else, they must be dating” mindset is incredibly harmful to aromantic/asexual people. If celebrities aren’t allowed to kiss their friends on the cheek without being accused of queerbaiting, what does that say to people in QPRs, or other close platonic relationships? “You’re not queer enough.”
Yeah, I relate strongly to bi people because the sorts of things that erase them also often erase ace and/or aro people. Now, if only they could also stop forgetting about us...
I agree and speaking as a queer allo (well possibly a bit demi but like closer to allo than the other end of that spectrum at least I would say) person also think it is messed up to assume that friends are lovers just because they actually love each other like, cuz they're friends and friends love each other?
Not to mention the fact that we are always trying to teach men and boys that it's okay to show affection yet the second they do, OMG they're gay and in love 🙄 How about we celebrate and promote beautiful friendships between males without destroying the concept of it entirely by immediately always making it sexual or romantic?
@@amandalovatsis actually they meant the affection kit was showing to Olivia Rodrigo
@@jeffersonhassan4558 Oh okay. Well, it reads both ways and my point applies in both cases. Allowing for affectionate platonic friendships between men and women without making it sexual or romantic is important too.
As a bi woman, I just want to thank you for highlighting the fact that so often these attitudes are rooted in intense biphobia. It's a big part of why I STILL have days where I don't feel like a valid part of the LGBTQ+ community. And why it took me 28 years to come out to my family. Videos like this are so important 💖💜💙
This!!! Yes same on all counts
"Biphobia"😂😂😂
Yuuuuuup
Correct. Not to mention, i'm somehow in a never ending state of "the only options in this world is either you are gay or straight" lmao biphobia eating me inside out.
As someone who is aro/ace, I've only been "apart of the community" when I came out as nonbinary it feels. Just because we don't get the same struggles as homoromantic/sexual people doesn't mean we don't have struggles and can "hide" easier. The problem with a lot of characters who are aro/ace, they get forced into a queer relationship because if you are single and not looking for a partner of the opposite gender, you have to be gay. Not anything else. Only gay or straight.
The "your fave is problematic" has really done a number on people's ability to be normal(=not an a-hole) online didn't it.
As a long time tumblr user, this whole superiority of "only consuming unproblematic media" bothered me for ages. It clearly played a role in Kit Connor and Becky Albertalli being harassed by chronically online people who weaponize social justice causes to justify their bad behaviour. And now people mainly do this on much more public platforms than tumblr, like twitter and instagram, it gets to the people it's about even easier.
You know, for as long as there have been people and causes, there have been people on the fringe who weaponize causes. I don’t think they so much as justify their bad behavior but as they think they are righteous. (And yeah, ego might be at the center of the behavior, a need for self elevation, or they may completely believe their actions are “right.”) It’s like the religious right’s self-righteousness. Wish they understood the impact they have on the ‘cause they hope to promote. They think they’re helping but they’re not. Many of us invest time undoing much of the harm they levy. And then they see us as sellouts and hypocritical. It’s the moral righteousness this video addresses without using the word righteousness.
I say that even as I agree that it’s morally appropriate and necessary to out politicians who promote homophobia and sign anti-LGBTQ legislation. People ought not be allowed to intentionally harm the community from the closet for personal and/or political gain (still talking about just politicians with that statement). Although, I’m never in a position to out a hateful politicians. Others might disagree with me entirely and they’re free to do so. I’d feel the same about someone who characterized poor people as takers and yet were on the take-they need to be exposed.
While I think it is still valid to come out for political reasons, I still believe that the vast majority of us deserve to decide when and where if ever.
One of the biggest problems with identity politics is that people forget that victims can also become abusers. People have decided I am a queer person and therefore an oppressed minority (even if you have grown up in a time and place of relative comfort, safety, privilege and acceptance as a member of Gen Z as a middle class white kid in a left wing city and don’t experience the discrimination that was commonplace even 20 years ago) and therefore anything I do is morally right and morally justified especially if the target isn’t a minority. I am just one of the good guys and I am using the right language to justify my actions therefore my think is good. In reality these actions come from a deeply right wing fascist evangelical morally Puritan way of thinking that doesn’t align with queer theory and radical queer acceptance at all.
@@Wynneception I attended a top tier masters program focused on social sciences and ethics (one step below Ivy League). Our required ethics class literally taught that you were righteous if you did righteous things, or if you were more oppressed than oppressor. In the latter case, nothing you did could be held against you, and any evil you did was the fault of your oppressors. I wish I was making this up.
Apologies in advance for being an obnoxious Marxist, but this fits too well as a reply:
"There is no ethical consumption under capitalism"
@@thrawncaedusl717 bruh, that's so weird. Holy crap, that saddens me. Where does breaking cycles of violence and trauma come into this? Seems like it would impossible with that line of thinking.
I did not spend my teenage years on tumblr in multiple fandoms that used queerbaiting heavily for marketing(sherlock, supernatural etc) for people to use queerbaiting to out real life people in 2022
Edit: I forgot to write “not” 😬
It also reminds me how there was this discourse around fanfic writers and how they need to tell everybody about their trauma in order to portray it in their fics
exactly. queerbaiting is for fictional characters in fictional stories that writers INTENTIONALLY orchestrate for marketing holllyyyyy shiii--- I understand that celebrities have PR teams and they do their own image making, but to honestly think that someone will live out queerbaiting just for their career is too jaded a view on life.
As if theyre not using it market themselves. Just look at the muscle bros using it to get onlyfans subscribers
@@sandraisyearning not just fanfiction even, I still remember when people went after Jonny Sims (writer for The Magnus Archives) for his portrayal of substance abuse, so much so that he had to issue a public statement that the portrayal had been heavily inspired by personal experience. Really hideous
same as a prev Teen Wolf fan
The closeted people trying to go in queer spaces/playing queer roles/etc are so courageous! To relatively safely explore these spaces should be absolutely allowed.
Newly out I wanted to support my local queer centre and barely there I was asked how I identify. After asking why I should answer he just said that we're all the same here. Granted he was the only person this aggressive.
I can't even imagine how brutal these kinds of gatekeeping on a social media/global level must be and to feel you have to stick to this once established label, especially at this young age like Kit Connor.
When I was still figuring out my sexuality and in the closet except to like two people I didn't feel like I belonged in queer spaces which is a shame because if you're still figuring out your sexuality talking to people with different experiences might help...
@@lilaboxx absolutely! That's why I love YT because there are queer spaces where I or others can explore themselves. But nothing beats talking to other people, you're right!
It’s sad to me that it’s come to this… I’ve been in queer spaces though where I’ve been harshly roasted because of looking straight and femme. I don’t judge other people nearly as harshly as i feel they’ve judged me in these situations… It shouldn’t be courageous and it bothers me. And yes, femmes can be them’s 😑
What I and so many others find problematic is going into these queer spaces, stealing the limelight, then retreating back into your comfortable straight white cis privilege, where as the rest of us don’t really get to do that.
@@mandoz353 i get where you're coming from but I'd rather have a questioning or closeted person have one safe space where they can be themselves / explore their identity than having none. I want people to be able to come to terms with their sexuality/ gender at their own timeline
Obligatory POC perspective: as non-western media becomes more globally accessible, the intersections of fandom habits can & HAVE had legitimately dangerous results for creators based outside of the West (& within, to a degree).
The biggest examples I can think of are the fandoms of The Untamed and of Genshin Impact, both created in mainland China. The author that wrote Modao Zushi (which The Untamed is based on), MXTX, literally disappeared and could STILL be "missing" (it's hard to know for certain, given the geolocking of information in/out of mainland CN). It is largely assumed that MXTX was outed for creating queer content online by rival authors &/or their fanbases, resulting in government detainment IRL. MXTX's books are explicitly homosexual: this makes their publication illegal, in Mainland China. Since the works were published under a pseudonym, online, it is difficult to discern from outside of China whether MXTX is safe or indefinitely "missing".
Western fans should not forget that AO3 was banned in China not too long ago, partly "inspired" by the huge popularity of the Untamed series. That series actively used queerbaiting tactics whilst the repurcussions fell on the disappeared MXTX and one of its male leads getting blacklisted from local sponsorships (alongside getting publically harassed for his alleged relationship or lack thereof with his co-star).
Genshin Impact is made by a company called HoYoVerse that has and continues to heavily queercode its characters. Their first "big" game, Honkai Impact, was able to do so quite extensively because of its genre and its being based in Japan. The developers and CN actors for Genshin Impact, however, are based in Mainland China. What is harmless fun for western fans is financially dangerous for employees in China, especially for named writers and CN voice actors.
There is a big feeling of dissonance between the western & eastern fandoms of these works, their expectations with respect to representation and its lack, and it is all escalated by layers of translation: translating mainland Chinese language and culture to a global audience, recently diasporic asians translating CN to non-asians, asia-based fans countering asian diaspora, all groups being countered by louder voices with bigger platforms who report/discuss these works as they would any other (western) work of their shared "genre".
...and this is all in reference to creating queer FICTION, explicit and otherwise. the legal, financial, and personal repurcussions of outing CN-based persons as being queer in their private lives, away from public image, is... very scary to think about. The recent protests against COVID restrictions, which most infamously prevented firefighters from entering a burning building and the subsequent death toll, created genuine concern and belief that there might be a repeat of the Tianmeng Square Incident of the 1980's.
Internet fandoms are global creatures but individual creators are not: basic human rights are still new or conditional, outside & even within the West. It's something that should very much be kept in mind, especially as more and more non-western works become popular globally.
+++
MXTX was not detained, she is fine and literally just informed us she was working on the audiobook of Heaven's Official Blessing which had 100k words added over the original publication, which was why she disappeared as she was working on that on top of her next novel which is going to be contemporary romance.
@@dotkiarika1026 there are too few details to really know why MXTX disappeared for 2 years (resurfacing in December 2021). One english-speaking fan, "Mercyandmagic", wrote an extensive post relaying their efforts to discern why MXTX went missing & the rumours of her being detained, sources included. Their investigation was very thorough but unable to confirm nor deny allegations either way. Things they WERE able to confirm?
Pornography is illegal in mainland China & it is not uncommon for homosexual romance to be deemed pornographic or otherwise "obscene" by police and courts. Danmei writers often have their work reported and are forced to lock chapters from view. Danmei is typically printed in Taiwan but, since Taiwan uses Traditional script whilst Mainland China uses Simplified Chinese... it is common for printings to be made & sold on a smaller scale, in-person or through Taobao. It is these printings and sales that gets Mainland Chinese writers successfully convicted when more serious crimes (such as "publishing pornographic material", [obscenity], [sale to minors], etc) are dropped.
In 2018, the danmei writer Tianyi was sentenced to 10.5 years in prison for "the illegal publishing of pornography". Prior to her outing and detainment, Tianyi had been actively harassed and threatened by a rival writer & her own anti-fans from 2017. Her appeal for a lighter sentence was rejected.
On May 23rd 2019, the offices for JJWXC (the publishing site used by MXTX, Priest, Meatbun Doesn't Eat Meat, other danmei writers, and thousands more writers in other genres) were raided as part of a "crackdown" by the "Anti-Pornography and Illegal Activities Office". Danmei genres were, if not targeted, closed afterward.
Throughout 2019, many people involved with danmei (writers, publishers, taobao store owners, printers, delivery personnel, anyone at all involved in shipping and packaging, the friends thereof) were outed and trialed in People's Courts. The conviction rate in that year was 99.965%.
So. It is LIKELY that MXTX was detained at some point during the 2 years she was missing - unless you are a lawyer or close family, Mainland Chinese police do not allow people to know who they hold in custody. Friends, publishers, voice actors - they were as uncertain and worried as fans, mostly staying silent when asked. An arrest does not mean a criminal charge and neither mean that the arrested person will be sentenced or imprisoned. "Detainment" is the indefinite period where persons vanish, in this case due to being investigated by police. "Detainment" is also applicable in reference to persons confined to government facilities because of testing positively for COVID, a practice that has only recently ended and only after mass public protest.
Your reply inspired me to recheck my sources and find more recent online appearances by MXTX, including the "was online and outside of custody in December 2021". Since the current printings of TCGF are still from MXTX's unrevised version of the story, it's still uncertain whether MXTX is wholly free or if they are on some form of probation. Hopefully MXTX and those around them are living freely, safely, and ANONYMOUSLY.
On a lesser scale, even in places where making queer content is slightly more accepted (as in, it won't get you in trouble with the law), different cultures have different ways of approaching queerness in media. Different tropes and story structures, different ideas of what a queer person might look or act or speak like, different ideas of what gender roles might entail, etc. I think it's really important when analyzing queer media from other cultures to keep an open mind and to make sure you're not approaching it solely from your own culture's point of view.
I think this is so important to point out. Being outed as queer can be legitimately dangerous. Not just in China but even in more liberal countries there are still subsets of the population that want queer people gone by any means necessary. By insisting people come out you could actively be putting them in danger, and people really forget that. They get so wrapped up in “I want this cute queer couple to exist” or “I want this representation” they forget the real life violence and repercussions queer people can face.
When I was in high school, my friends, some of who were queer, would constantly speculate and joke about my sexuality. Every now and then they would try to get me to come out, by saying that it was okay and that I could trust them, or by trying to get me to hook up with girls at parties, even though I told them over and over again that I was straight, they either thought I was lying or that I just hadnt realized it yet, so obviously the way to handle that was to keep insisting. One day, one of said friends said she had feelings for me, and then everyone else put this enormous pressure on me and were genuinely angry and upset with me when I wouldn't go out with her. Now, the thing is, no I was not straight, but I was just starting to discover my sexuality and I was still at that stage where I simply hated who I was, I wasn't anywhere near ready to come out. The pressure they put on me made me feel horrible, because I just wanted to keep this part of me to myself for a little longer and I didn't know why they wouldn't just leave me alone with this, I should be the one who decides when I want to come out, not them. I absolutely hated myself for lying to them, but I couldn't do it yet, I wasn't ready. This resulted in the fact that when I did feel ready to come out, in senior year, and I told them that I was a lesbian, they were mad and upset with me. They made the whole thing about them, that I didn't trust them, that I lied to them, started questioning if I even valued our friendship. I went off on them after that, explaining why I only told them now, they apologized but I was done after that.
Our sexuality and identity is ours to share, we get to decide when, who and even if we decide to tell. Trying to convince a person to come out, even if you think is for their benefit (it never is), is extremely harmful. If a person tells you they're straight or that they don't wish to talk about it, leave them alone, it doesn't matter if you feel like you know that they're not, it is their journey and you don't have the right to try to rush it. Ever.
considering Kit's age, he was so incredibly mature about how he handled the online discourse surrounding his own personal identity
Its pretty incredible and also heartbreaking. I hope he gets the support he needs behind the scenes
he was college aged, not prepubescent.
@@xBINARYGODxpeople in college age can be pretty vulnerable and honestly anyone of any age would struggle to handle huge public scandals and harassment...How would you react in his shoes? 🤔
i’m only 7 mins in, but one of the biggest frustrations i had with the kit situation was that people a. were going hard on the bi erasure thing and b. it never occurred to these people that kit chose to audition to heartstopper, specifically for nick nelson, BECAUSE he related so hard to his struggles? something about it just irks me that people will try and cancel a teenager for going through what we all did as queen adolescents.
Plus in the text that was displayed on screen, allies were also encouraged to audition
That’s another thing that bothers me, when people say you have to be either in the queer community or an enemy of it, instead of just allowing people to be the allies that they are. I also wish that were a much more acceptable mindset for people to understand, because I don’t know where I stand in terms of my sexuality. I might just be aroace. It’s possible. But then there’s those few people like my nonbinary sibling that try and pressure people like me into being gay, when that isn’t how it works. Idk, it’s just weird.
Also, bi people can date... The opposite gender? Because that's part of bisexuality?
Also, also if you want to cynically optimize your career is netflix show about gay teen really the best to you? It's not that big of a market
so did Harry with My Policeman, there were already proofs of him and interviews that showed how much he loved the book and wanted to play the role but still he faced scrutiny for it all because he was a "straight man" and he can't play a queer character, along side the queer baiting allegations
Even if Kit was straight he still has every right to play that role. Just like gay actors have every right to play straight characters. It's a job, it's an opportunity to get a check. Do people really want directors to look over perfectly good LGBT actors in order to find straight actors for a role and vice versa? Hell no. The whole point of acting is to become someone who is completely different from who you truly are. The idea that only LGBT actors can play LGBT characters, and only straight actors can play straight characters is barbaric and regressive.
This is such an important conversation. I feel so burned from the queer community as a bi woman that I’ve disengaged from a lot of things I used to actively enjoy in terms of queer culture. I feel scared to go into queer spaces. And someone near and dear to me has such terrible memories of bullying by people in the queer club at uni for being “straight” that he’s actively suppressing his own natural questioning process and attraction he’s disclosed to me.
QUESTIONING, CLOSETED AND BI PEOPLE DESERVE SPACE IN THIS COMMUNITY!!
if it helps at all, there are definitely queer spaces that do make an effort to make everyone feel welcome. in the city i live, i go to a queer book club where people's identities are never demanded or assumed (we just go around a circle at the beginning and say our names and -- if, and only if, we'd like -- our pronouns); there's a queer coffee shop when anyone can come in and chill; there're lgbtq+ bars where people of all genders hang out and dance. not, of course, that that invalidates what you wrote about in your comment: more just me saying, i hope u get to experience queer spaces like that soon.
I'm rly sorry you and the other person you talked about who is important to you went through that I'm bi too and I rly like women as well as men (I have dreams about kissing them and stuff) but I feel like a lot of ppl just kinda assume I'm straight or "not that queer/bi" bcuz I haven't been with many women (even though the one I was that close to was an extremely important meaningful relationship for me) and it upsets me... I also feel like a guy inside sometimes and think I might be non-binary but I honestly just find having to navigate these discussions so exhausting (I'm also neurodivergent and have mental and physical health issues). I have only read the first two books of Heartstopper not watched the Netflix series apart from a couple of trailers but I really feel for Kit Connor as well :(
And others are similarly sick of people acting with moral superiority thinking they're so "nuanced" and "different" because they don't fit neatly into any sexuality category, thinking that they're better than out LGBT people. Maybe the people in the LGBT club similarly felt like they were being bullied by your friend.
@@d818581dd so does that justify that person getting bullied? i hope that its not what you mean
@@ohBoyahandle I think they're trying to say that there could've easily been miscommunication, in either direction.
I've had a friend before who was bullied for being straight, but knowing who they are, I could never know if they were actually bullied or not. They were someone who would stew in their own mind a lot, and would often take things out of context. They'd take positive experiences and twist them until they were actually negative all along. Kinda negative comments about a mutual friend being not great at what they're doing would accelerate into full on hate.
My guess is this commentor has likely had similar experiences, and so is asking whether the friend had a chance of miscommunicating in a similar way.
As someone who took 36 years to figure out her sexuality (asexual) it's crazy to think people expect an 18-year-old to know it all. I'm still exploring labels and that's fine. People also tend to forget there's more 'flavours' than gay or straight out there.
And you know, it's fine to fantasise about celebrities and artists being queer or not, but that's all it should be: a fantasy. It feels like some fanatic fans tend to forget their idols are a real person with real feelings and real life struggles and I find that pretty disturbing.
I am astounded at the amount of people who figure it out when they are like 12. Last thing I was thinking about was that. I figured it out at 19.
Thanks for sharing. It is indeed disturbing. Real people don't exist to be objectified and fetishized.
I thought I was Bi for a while until I got a crush on my friend and realized that I was Demi and hadn’t actually experienced attraction before at the age of 19, and now I don’t know if I’m straight or bi as I just haven’t had a ton of close relationships 🤷♀️
Speaking of forcing people to be out, here's an issue that can cause unintentional distress: pronouns. I've been in spaces where there was an expectation to give your pronouns when introducing yourself. Obviously, the point of the practice is to be welcoming and inclusive, so that people's identities are respected. That's good! However, because my gender identity is something I'm still working out, and that's not something I want to talk about publicly, I feel like I have to lie about my identity or just not give my pronouns. If I don't give my pronouns, I feel others question why not, and see me as perhaps not being comfortable with queer people. If I give the pronouns of my assigned gender, I feel like I'm lying to myself. I'm fine with others calling me by the pronouns of my assigned gender by assumption, but I don't like having to claim that identity as my own. It's hard to put it into words, but I guess it's the difference between a lie of omission and an outright falsehood. It's not the biggest deal in the world, but this rambling statement is just an attempt to articulate something I thought about when you were talking about unintended consequences.
You’ve explained that more eloquently than I’ve ever been able to! I also just feel very uncomfortable giving pronouns during class introductions just because I have no way of knowing if everyone in the class is actually cool or just going along with it because they’ve been asked to, and if I give pronouns that don’t necessarily line up with how people read me I might catch shit for it later. I vastly prefer to be able to make my own choice of who I’m comfortable with telling, and and when.
I get you. I don't mind people misgendering me that much but when I have to do it myself it's just the most horrible feeling. Like I now I don't look how I see myself, so I don't blame people using the pronouns of my agab but when I have to introduce myself with these pronouns I'm going directly against what I know to be true to myself.
Is there anything you would advise aspiring allies how to handle pronouns for people who feel as you do? Because all my learning up to this point tells me that guessing people’s pronouns is generally not kind or helpful to people with atypical gender identities. I could just always use ‘they’ for everyone until instructed otherwise. To avoid asking seems like a bridge too far for me though. Perhaps it’s more ok to ask in a low-key private setting, as opposed to in a group introduction?
@@samsprague3158 Personally I'd greatly prefer asking in a low-key private setting to a group introduction, but I really don't have a perfect answer to whether it's better in general to ask up front to normalize it or wait until you know someone to make sure they're comfortable with you. It's not a one shoe fits all situation, kinda like guide dogs vs people with dog allergies; neither side is wrong.
I do think it's interesting though, that of the three of us in the replies, we're all fine with people using the pronouns usually associated with our agab as long as we don't have to affirm them. And I don't think I've ever met a trans or nb person who wasn't okay with someone getting their pronouns wrong as long as they're okay with being corrected and immediately switch to the correct pronouns.
I wonder whether saying, "You can use (for example) she/her for the moment". I'm assigning importance to the words and syntax: you aren't declaring yourselves as someone with she/her pronouns, but you *are* letting others know that you don't mind *for the moment* being called such. I'm so lucky I've never had to deal with this stuff, being 53 fix female although I'm not perfectly straight. Hope this helps and good luck y'all
"Queer people are dying to come out so everyone HAS to come out" feels a lot like "There's kids starving in [country], so eat your meal."
Something that will forever bother me is that people won't let actors be actors. It's literally in their job description to portray things that they are not. Actually being that thing or lived experience definitely helps the portrayal, but good actors don't need it and it shouldn't be expected. Lived experience matters a bit more when it comes to writing it, but the experience can still be accurate and enjoyable without it, if the writer is dedicated to making it so. The mentality of sticking to your own needed to be thrown away decades ago
some of the best fiction about gay men like The Front Runner or The Charioteer or The Vampire Lestat or even Brokeback Mountain was written by hetero women..
People even do play people of different races and from different time periods and of different genders. It’s incredibly common in theatre for casts of say all cis men to play women, or for black actors to play white characters, or for casting to be racially blind. It is less common in film where depictions are expected to be photorealistic - where you are expected to LOOK like what you are playing, compared to theatre where it’s fine to imagine a totally different character. So it’s even still common now to have people play characters of different races and genders, as long as it doesn’t involve racist makeup or racist caricature it’s not considered inherently offensive. I think people have taken the issue of “blackface” and “brow face” as an issue in film and taken it out of context to where well because this issue with a unique historical and cultural context is an issue in the film industry, we can just refuse to use any kind of critical thinking whatsoever and assume that it’s always universally bad 100% of the time irrespective of historical context for an actor to play a character they don’t share qualities with. It’s more nuanced than that. 100 years in the future where roles for actors of colour are more common place in Hollywood it’s probably not going to be as big of a deal for a character who was brown in the novel to played by a white actor, because it will be a lot more common for what are now exclusively white roles to go to non white actors. This same thing applies to queer roles and queer actors.
I'm even seeing Daredevil's actor being roasted as bad representation because he isn't blind IRL, even though the version of blindness Daredevil has bears little to no resemblance to any real variations of blindness due to his superpowers. While I don't want to silence any blind people who have an issue with him, so far the content I've seen complaining about him has all been made by people who are not blind.
This is a really good point. I would also add if you truly believe 'love is love' than complaining about an actor connecting with a story as a love story regardless of who it is between seems antithetical. Of course that is how they connect with it. Yes there are issues with discrimination in casting but I'd like to see a world where queer people can play cis/het roles without being discriminated against rather than limiting them to only being able to play a role that reflects their life experiences.
Social media and the internet completely destroyed some people's sense of privacy. As you say actors owe us nothing and should just be allowed to act.
Hetronormativity HAS to be a much bigger part of this conversation. Also the history of Queer Flagging and the idea of "coming out" which often is only for many queer people is only for straight/cis people because they don't need to come out.
the queer community has been suppressed and discriminated against for ages. now that there is a bit of representation and less discrimination (in some parts of the world at least) they start to put undue pressure on [young] people (not just in the public eye) to come out (mostly from within their community thus discriminating against their own). anonymity in social media makes this worse. the reasons for this deplorable behaviour hardly pass scrutiny. all agreed Kit did a stunning job as actor for the character Nick Nelson. the casting was perfect. all this talk about casting actors with personal traits matching their roles is not helpful if we want the best experiences to entertain us
Heteronormativity my as* the whole thing it is about the queers zombie apocalypse
@@embreis2257 but stop playing the victim. That is not true. Queer community being suppressed?? Look at edgy music culture since the 70s, look at emos in the 2000, and the power this queer stuff is having now on the internet is so big that can cost the job of people. And it is all due to some attention seeking teenagers....
@@embreis2257 Exactly. Mind you some people don't have a label for their sexuality. This should be allowed and okay as well.
@@ipercalisse579 but people are very scared of being put under those constraints again. and not everyone is nice to lgbt people. like. its illegal to be gay where i live. you can get a fee if you distribute "gay propaganda" (i.e. wearing rainbow stuff). it got better but it can and sometimes does get worse.
I said this before, but I'd rather be queerbaited by a celebrity than force a queer person out of the closet.
@@greynotchristian You'd rather... force a queer person to make a public announcement on their sexuality...? Like, deny them the right to keep their personal life private because they're gay...? Or you don't mean that and just misread the comment?
@@greynotchristian piss off
@@Haris-gh1kn no
@@greynotchristian ur leaving weird ass comments on this channel 🤨
All queer people should be put of the closet. There shouldn't be such thing as the closet. I'm sick of closeted people ruining it for our people like me.
Really really really love your content. I'm a mostly straight dude in his 30s but was raised in a conservative, anti-acedemic family tied to the traveling community in the U.K. I was the first person in my family to finish high school (and subsequently college and a master's degree) even though I was expected to drop out and work for my dad at 14. I eventually moved to the other side of the world, work as an artist, and am in a mixed-race marriage (all of which was a "thing" for my family). It might sound strange but I've always felt a love, affiliation, and admiration for the LGBTQ community and their fight for acceptance. It's been an on-going source of inspiration for me. Your content has been great for allowing me to understand it further and to help rid myself of any leftover hangups from my upbringing. You've probably changed the way I'll raised my kids honestly, being sure to include books that feature same sex/non-straight cis couples.
Also, call me a cynic, but I suspect there's a reason these sorts of queer speculators are frequently more interested in the work of ostensibly straight artists than they are in the work of openly queer artists, in that openly queer artists tend to have the sort of messy individual private lives that real people of any sexuality have, whereas if a creator is still officially straight you can project the version of queerness that personally resonates for you without having to worry about their lived experience undermining it, if you will.
I can see that. Queer speculators seem more into queerness than queer people.
I’m so happy to see this topic being covered. Hope you’re doing well, Rowan!
The standpoint of "a creator can't write about a marginalized person unless they're part of that marginalized community" is going to make representation so much harder to come by. A lot of mainstream media is made by cishet able bodied white men, and so by this logic most mainstream media can't have characters who are poc, queer, disabled, and/or women. I do think stories that focus on the specific experiences of these groups are often better told by members of those communities, but that doesn't mean that, say a cis person can't have a trans person in their story. Saying that you can't write about anyone outside your own experience is going to cause more harm than good imo. I would rather have mainstream representation of my identity made by people outside that experience than no representation at all in mainstream content.
The idea of, "You can't write what you aren't," that rose to prominence during the Tumblr fandom era is a rule that cannot possibly be followed if you actually want media of value. Stories need conflict to be good. That means writing characters that disagree with and challenge the author's viewpoint. But worse than that, it is a rule that ultimately enforces and bolsters both patriarchal and heteronormative viewpoints. Straight, white, cis men are already in power. They already primarily write about straight, white, cis men. They are not challenged by the concept of "You should only write stories about straight, white, cis men!" because that's what they've been doing for decades. The only people who are challenged by "You shouldn't write that!" are the ones whose voices are already marginalized. We hold POC, LGBT+ and female authors to impossible standards, then act surprised when the very people we set-up to fail do so.
Also, people who make mainstream media can colaborate with marginalized people. Actors and other colaborators can influence these projects and get oportunities
I'd say the real question is if the writing and portrayal are done *well.* It's one thing where we LGBT folks may have the advantage, in that we still grow up pretty constantly immersed in straightness, but even some well-meaning straight actors have had trouble actually understanding us from our own point of view, and not as a side-issue. But if they do a goo job, they do a good job.
That. And also, almost every story ever has characters from more than one identity. Like, I dunno, Sens8. The Wachowski sisters wrote a white lesbian trans woman as one of the lead roles, matching marginalized identity. But there's also a gay cis male latino man, which is a very different marginalized identity. Even creators with highly marginalized identities don't have *every* marginalized identity.
just because the majority of mainstream media is written by cishet, white, ablebodied men doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. We need to start seeing more diversity in writer’s rooms as well as the media we consume. To be clear, I do agree that writers should not be forbidden to writing outside their lived experiences, however even by your own admission, stories that focus on what its like to be part of a minority group are best written by those in that group. Stories that tackle the lived experiences of marginalized groups written by people outside those groups should always be treated as a rare exception to this rule, and should only be attempted by writers willing to do extensive research and have lots of conversations with people from the groups they’re writing about.
it sucks that in an age where we have lil nas x and many other vocal queer artists, we still want to expose these other celebrities for our own personal excitement.
@@Francesca-dr6cg i feel you, thats why im still not out as bi. i hate labels and i dont want to fit into any of them. for me sexuality and relationships is personal
Wait. Bad bunny is queer?
Lil Nas X is also an example of a queer celeb who was outed. I was on twitter the day his (possibly underage) grindr nudes were leaked by fans of another artist who Lil Nas X had recently dethroned on the Billboard Top 100 charts. It was intentional and malicious and he shook it off so well that many people have forgotten.
A lot of bisexual people like myself don’t like to be open about our sexuality precisely because of illogical reactions and biphobia as illustrated in the video. It’s honestly easier to just let people assume I’m straight/gay rather than try to constantly affirm my true sexuality.
True, as a bisexual person, who has unfortunately some biphobic family members, we sometimes need to keep it to ourselves.
@kyoka1528 You can pry these coat hangers from my cold dead hands because it's safe in this closet and I like it here tbh.
@@KateCat420 Not gonna lie when I got the notification of your comment (because you tagged me) I saw just the beginning of, "You can pry these coat hangers" and I was like: What? 😀
But, yeah no one is forcing you to come out if you don't want to. Actually, if you aren't in a place where coming out would be safe, it's recommended to stay in the closet.
My person experience is I didn't see the point of staying in the closet once I figured it out. Most of my friends are queer anyways so they're extremely accepting. However, certainly family members I'm not out to. I will go out of my way to hide my queerness from them due to their biphobia / homophobia. I hate lying to my family but, for the time being, it's the best thing to do. That's another reason I didn't fully closet myself, I'd hate lying and keeping secrets from my friends and family.
You're happy in the closet and I never really wanted to go in it because it makes me feel dishonest but, that is our individual queer experiences. People's experience being closeted are going to varying from person to person. Just like how people's families and peer reactions to people coming out with vary from different people's experiences. That's what makes the queer experience really interesting because no two people are going to have the exact same experience.
Definitely some real shit, most days I just say I'm gay, it's much easier to deal with and explain and means I suffer a lot less judgement from gay people. Only my closest friends know I'm bi and I think sometimes they forget it too and only remember when I actually express attraction to a woman.
I really, really hate it when people look at someone like Harry Styles and cry "queerbaiting." He's not queerbaiting. He's being himself. Queerbaiting is hinting that if you buy X (usually tickets/copies of visual media) you'll get explicitly queer content, but then the product doesn't deliver. A person just being who they are and not making it something they monetize is not queerbaiting.
Harry is very accepting of LGBTQIA+ individuals and he frequently dresses and adorns himself in a very gender non-conforming way, but he has always said that his sexuality is between himself and his partner alone, and he has not expressed the desire to be seen and referred to as anything other than a man. What does that mean for his fans? Recognize, if you wish, that he is not the most typical cis-het man and his gender identity is probably not what we think of when we think cis male. He might be gender fluid or non-binary. He might be masc-leaning on the agender spectrum (much as I am fem-leaning on the agender spectrum. I proudly claim the label "demigirl.") He does not owe us confirmation of any of this.
The thing about Harry Styles is that he's very problematic with his queerness. But we don't have a specific word to describe it beside the word "queerbaiting" - which is not accurate in his case at all.
Here's why Harry Styles is problematic with his queerness:
First of all, he's an idiot. Like Miles Bron in Glass Onion, he's not as provocative, deep, or revolutionary as his marketing of a popstar makes him out to be (check out his disastrous Don't Worry Darling press interviews, and really listen to him answering questions. They honestly made no sense but tried really hard to be "deep").
But that doesn't stop him from running his mouth. He played a gay man role in another movie, My Policeman, and on his press tour, he hyped up his gay sex scene like something revolutionary and "not like other gay sex scenes". And... it was not. It was as basic as any throwaway gay sex scene you can find in any tv series with 2 gay people in it.
Second of all, he's majorly benefited as some sort of a non-binary fashion trailblazer in the industry by *checking note* wearing dresses?! When in fact, he's not even the first famous guy to do it. The POC and queer community has been doing it for decades, but none of them were never as celebrated as Harry Styles by the fashion magazine industry. And that double standard really rubs mature queer people the wrong way. His ambiguity doesn't stop on his own identification, it's also describing to his own deafening silence on this very double standard he's very clearly benefited on it. Does he really supporting us on queer rights movement more than he's benefited *from* us for being a white male wearing silly dresses and being unfairly celebrated for *just* doing that?
@@mnp7922 "How about you people stop assuming that a man wearing a dress is some kind of a LGBTQ uniform" oH WE BLOODY WISH it is so. So we can finally stop seeing Harry Styles on some cover of the magazines like a second coming of fashion trailblazing.
You completely missed the scale of the issues. I simply pointed out the double standards that other queer people of colors face while Harry, as a white male, actually benefited from. It's literally have nothing to do with "He's supposed to tell you his sexuality, isn't that it?", so don't be obtuse and sidetrack the conversation.
He literally can use his platforms to uplift other queer individuals when the criticism came out, without being a part of the community or not. He chose not to and remain silent. That's deafening.
We don't need him to him us how he identifies as, we need him to speak up about the clear double standards others are facing. And for the love of god, stop mansplaining us what gay sex should look like!
@@gumballz.9259 I think you've done well here to describe it. You've said "he's problematic because he's pretentious and runs his mouth unnecessarily, he hypes things up without substance to support the hype, and he benefits from his advantages without advocating for disadvantaged people". That bears literally no resemblance to queerbaiting, and using a word improperly, turning it into an empty buzzword, makes the word far less useful for actual communication of a problem.
Harry Styles is rich, and white, and rich and white people are almost always pretentious hype artists, and almost always take their advantage for granted. That's not exclusive to the queer experience.
Also he's not unfairly celebrated for wearing dresses or messing around with heteronormativity; he's unfairly celebrated because he was a part of 1D; he's an attractive, rich, pale male with a bit of talent and showmanship and a *lot of luck.* You've said that if a different person made those choices they wouldn't be as successful, well then, isn't it obvious that it's not those choices that are making Styles successful?
I mean, Harry Styles is a celebrity.
If he wants to act like that then he does owe the public details about his personal life lol
@@mnp7922 "the doctor is under no obligation to treat patients"
"the pilot doesn't have a responsibility to safely fly the plane"
You literally covered ALL the bases with this one, this was such an incredible video! I discover new aspects of my identity all the time and have for over a decade, and I can't imagine how invasive and harmful it would feel to have that very nuanced, personal journey blasted all over the internet and picked apart by strangers. I understand that celebrities give up certain expectations of privacy, but essentially creating fan-fiction/headcanons about REAL PEOPLE is very uncomfortable behavior
I came out this year, I am 40, I worked a lot of jobs where coming out would get me drummed out of the job.
I don't know you but I just want to say, I'm so proud of you for coming to terms with yourself and I hope this can be something of a second start at life where you can be you. I wish for that one day! Good luck with everything!
i'm so proud of you!!!!
People keep trying to throw shade and low key reference whether or not I’m gay at work but I’m more petty than they are😂😂 it’s so aggravating but I kinda have fun flipping the topics and making them feel shitty about digging too much. They don’t choose for me. I would never grant them knowledge just because they ask.
I'm an asexual lesbian and wrote mlm fanfiction for YEARS, starting at the age of 11. did i know i was a lesbian when i started? fuck no, i thought "well I guess I'm attracted to these male characters so i must be straight" and went happily to write smut (yeah, at the age of 11, i swear i was ok). When i was 13 i became friends with a gay boy who, after finding out about my writing, proceeded to call me lots of names and suggest i fetishized gay men as a straight girl. I immediately responded "wait I'm not straight" and that was the moment when i realized that, well, i wasnt straight. After this, there was the whole journey of coming to terms with me actually being in the asexual spectrum, and the hate i got from fellow queer people for not being "gay enough" to have sex with women. I never felt safe or accepted in the queer community, and so to this day only my closest friends and family know of my sexuality. And i still write queer stories. I am TERRIFIED of the kind of treatment other authors have gotten for writing queer stories, and i can safely say that having to come out like that, under scrutiny, to defend yourself from hate? Traumatizing. I feel so, so sorry for Kit. He's a very strong guy.
I'm so so sorry about how you were treated!
And to say to someone they're not "gay enough" especially from us queers... We really need to do better and accept people all over the spectrum. I really hate this kind of behavior.
I truly hope you have better experiences in the future and good luck on your writing.
A surprising amount of hate for queer authors comes from within our own community. Some of it is very mixed in with misogyny. I've seen my fair share of gay men complain about female authors - regardless of sexuality - daring to write queer male characters. Yet those same gay men have no issue whatsoever when straight, cis men write about lesbians. Nor do they even care about the overt sexualization of queer women chronically done by male writers. It's just plain, old misogyny dressing up as queer activism. Because it is still just them saying "All male authors are automatically valid at all times, but women must always prove themselves."
@@zelamorre1126 oh that's such a good point! Thank you for sharing.
I had a similar experience too when I was younger and used to write in-fandom mlm stories. We shouldn't gatekeep private exploration like such if it isn't harming anyone and such elements of romanticisation/sexualisation aren't then subjected onto real people outside of fanfiction and similar creative spaces. I, for one, am not completely sure I'm cis, and so I used to explore that community perhaps to find male solidarity and options for if I am a mlm person. That sort of exploration is extremely important and we shouldn't gatekeep someone from an activity just because their supposed, unconfirmed identity may not traditionally align with that activity or community space. I think that time was very much me "testing the waters" in order to understand my place in the world and attractions. I can definitely say that the shipping I engaged in has allowed me to piece together my romantic attractions and demisexuality.
Something else to add, a man is never questioned over the sexual entertainment they engage with, and so that is something important to consider in reference to this treatment of assumed non-men.
I always hated how ppl would assume sexuality's based on the ships/fiction ppl read/wrote!
I have a lot of sympathy for Harry Styles, regardless of whom he may be attracted to or how he may choose to label himself. I wasn't out to myself at 17 and the thought of people speculating about my sexuality was a HUGE source of stress. I can't imagine what it must have been like being in the public eye and faced with such unhinged speculation about my sexuality and my relationship with somebody I was around all the time from thousands of fans online at such a young age. People begrudge him for refusing to put a label on his sexuality but, having endured tumblr during the peak of 1D's fame, I cannot blame him for wanting to avoid giving the public any concrete details to use to fetishize and objectify him further after seeing some of the truly repulsive things people were saying about him
The thing I find strange about the Gaylor conspiracy is that she has told us her sexuality when Lover came out. In Vogue 2019 she said:“I didn't realize until recently that I could advocate for a community that I'm not a part of” regarding the LGBT+ community.
Shes told us shes straight and people should respect that not speculate
That doesn't really make sense, she'd been advocating for the queer community well before the lover era (e.g. you can want who you want...) so it seems unlikely that quote is her labelling herself as straight
@@deb8376She was not even remotely as vocal about it until lover era though let’s not act dense. She had always been supportive of the lgbtq community especially in lyrics but not to the level of YNTCD
@@deb8376 how is that quote not labeling herself as straight?? she’s quite literally saying she’s not a part of the community. and she’s said it more times since then.
Exactly
@@maddiegrace3262 The sentence before that was something like "Rights are being taken away from everyone who is not a straight white man." Since she is a woman, has somewhat advocated for feminism and has publicly been pro-LGBT since 2008/09 we can assume that she was referring to people of colour. She wasn't very vocal before that point, sure, but she isn't exactly being vocal now either.
Oh my gosh I have this distinct memory of this one time while I was at work and Cole Sprouse and Lili Rinehart (Jughead and Betty from Riverdale) came by - they were very nice, and my manager always appreciates it if we can ask to snap a quick photo (no posing or anything, just ‘can I get a photo for social media?’ ‘sure!’ ‘thanks!’ *smile* *snap* ‘have a good one!’) of any celebs who come in for our wall (case by case, of course - just if it seems like they won’t mind and won’t be mobbed) so I asked, they were very gracious, and I accidentally got a very cute little gif instead of a photo of the two of them going in for a friendly hug.
Little did I know that there were two opposing camps as to whether Cole Sprouse was dating her or his other costar KJ Apa (Archie) and when I innocently posted it online, mentioned how cute I thought the accidental gif had come out, and thanked them for stopping by (again, I had asked specifically for a photo to pop on social media) my - or rather, the store’s - notes BLEW UP, and I got dozens of messages either asking if they seemed like a couple or accusing me of being in on some sort of conspiracy.
WILD shit. I was just trying to make our shop look cool!
but they were dating... people are WILD.
@@jellogirl2010 My understanding from the whole experience was that they definitely weren’t publicly dating at the time, and whether they were a couple when I met them or not is something I don’t know and have zero means of speculating on even if I wanted to, which I obviously don’t LOL
@@genevievelok9496 OF COURSE NOT! It was a crazy time nonetheless and I'm sorry that happened to you!
this is sort of an aside but I think it's interesting to see the difference between the thriving communities around conspiracies like gaylor, vs the treatment of black openly queer artists specifically, along with other non-white queer artists. people will pour over swift lyrics to find evidence of queer subtext, but black female rappers and rnb singers (megan, cardi b, and ice spice, just to name a few) will talk openly about queerness in their music, but are either completely ignored, or accused of queerbaiting. we can easily guess that a lot of it has to do with racist bias against how these women choose to express their sexuality in their music (it's certainly a lot more explicit and hypersexual, but nonetheless queer). I'm so glad lil nas has been able to rise to fame as an openly gay pop star. you can't and shouldn't try to force anyone to be a fan of someone's music, but it's certainly disheartening to see constant debates online about harry styles' sexuality and representation in pop music when montero is literally RIGHT THERE next to him on the pop charts. and we know artists like keiynan lonsdale weren't as lucky, getting wrapped up in the queerbaiting discourse surrounding love, simon. I also think about the treatment of mitski on social media, how her song about dealing with white supremacy in interracial relationships was co-opted online by white wlw couples as something cutesy and lighthearted, and how she was treated when asking her fans to act more respectfully at her own concerts. this sounds kind of harsh, but I think some of this entitlement over celebrities personal lives extends beyond identifying with queer subtext, and into using queer subtext and social justice language as a shield to avoid unpacking the hierarchical media bubbles we live in.
mmmm I don't know
Interesting point about the sapphic artists, and I'm not personally sure about it's race layer ...
but the "male gaze" for lesbian shit is so very prevalent. To the point where, as a lesbian, some shit out there is so "for the men" that it literally is fucking straight. Like that rhianna music video with shakira. I don't even think that's sexy. It is not talked about (positively or at all) within the sapphic community. Which.... is probably because it's... *not* for us.
The WAP music video, *REGARDLESS of cardi and megan's sexualities*, just seems *so* "male gaze"-y in the way they were shot.
It's interesting the things that literally didn't even REGISTER as "gay" to me, when it was literally girls on top of each other, making out, whatever. Like that shit isn't gay to me. (and that's because it's for the straight people.)
My gay shit is REAL shit (as what anyone wants), not hypersexualized lesbianism for men.
@@nternetrat i think i understand what you mean to a certain extent, but even in the case of queer people of color who openly exhibit and express their queerness in less sexual ways- they are seldom recognized for their queerness; it's always their race or ethnicity that's acknowledged first; even as a person who's not a celebrity [obviously] in many queer spaces i'm often seen as the "odd one out" as the way i present my queerness can be a lot different than how my caucasian friends do, mostly due to cultural differences; which is fine, of course, but it can be really invalidating for people to tell me: "i don't look queer" because of my box braids or that i look "too butch" because of the same thing even though i wear eccentric earring, cuff my jeans; ipresent as fairly fem, and yet i am still told i appear masculine; [on the few occasions i've been able to talk to other black queer people [or just people of color in general], they're able to see that i'm a lesbian right away and don't assume i'm a stud]; it's as if my blackness erases this all; on top of that, that white supremacy within the lesbian community is absolutely abhorrent [or at least where i live, and from what i've experience online]; so i wouldn't nescaryily say that race doesn't play a factor in this; so many people of color are overlooked and have their messages ignored within the context of their struggles even when related to the intersection of their queer identity, even when directly addressing or communing the lgbtq+ community
edit: for clarity and grammar :p
which mitski song?
@@unkaleidoscoped8194 strawberry blond, i assume
@@zealouslyCantankerous mm. thank you for writing this.
Are you talking about not being registered as queer to white people because race comes first?
Explain if you want to, but just to clarify for myself...
So you're saying that as a black person, your queer style is disregarded and not registered as queer to non black people simply because you're black?
Or more specifically not really having a place in queer community as your style is also influenced by black culture?
I got into several discussions with Gaylors during my short stint on TikTok last year. Thank you for expressing my feelings so much more eloquently than I was ever able to.
One additional aspect I’d like to add is how the people analyzing someone else’s life to “prove” said person’s queerness immediately asked me if I was queer when I objected. So not only do they speculate about and pressure celebrities to come out, there is also this inherent pressure for objectors to come out themselves to somehow prove they have a say in the matter, essentially putting them in the same position as Swift / Styles / Connor etc.
This ^^^^
What's ironic is most of gaylors and larries are straight married women
Part I
10:50 A Brief history of outing
11:05 Coming out as a political statement
13:29 Outing as a political act
15:40 The outing of celebrities
Part II
20:51 Humor and self-identification
Part III
25:08 The rhetoric of true believers
Part IV
43:51 Why do people do that? Moral superiority
Part V
1:00:30 The harm
Part VI
1:08:30 Where do we go from here?
It reminds me of the absolute madness that happened when the "How I Met Your Mother" fandom and young men discovered their masc icon Barney was actual very very gay, it was a wild time.
I always find his fame baffling given that he’s absolutely vile in reality.
i really really feel for the bi erasure, as a bi person. it's not coincidence that most of people you talked about are bi... being with a man really terrifies me now, mainly because i feel like people are gonna react to it as if im "actually hetero!" and that's not it. even if i'm with a man for the rest of my life the way i interact with the world has changed so much with me being bisexual, and aware of that bisexuality, that there is no way it won't be an important part of myself for the rest of my days... even if i date men. i'm bisexual at the end of the day in THAT relies my queerness.
Thank you for the video and for taking time to go through different arguments. It helped me to have clearer mind about the topic. And in process explained why I 've gotten recently so much anxiety and self doubt about my own identity and being not enough.
Okay this video makes me feel the need to share a story, so sorry in advance for the long comment:
In college I had a friend who was part of a student-run musical theatre troupe with me, and for the first two years I knew him, everyone was always speculating, asking, and joking about his sexual orientation both to his face and behind his back. Most of these people were queer. They were all so convinced, based on his voice, his mannerisms, and his involvement with musical theatre, that he must be queer, despite the fact that he had explicitly told them all he was straight. For me, the first time I heard that he identified as straight was the last time I ever made a comment about his sexuality either to him or about him because, as far as I was concerned, when people tell you how you identify you need to take them at face value because either they're telling the truth as they currently understand it, or they have their reasons, which are none of your business, for being in the closet.
I was honestly disgusted to find that my friends continued pestering him about it or joking about it when he wasn't around even after he had told everyone to stop and told them that he was straight multiple times. When I asked a friend about it, they said "we're just trying to help him feel comfortable enough to come out, cause, honestly, you know him - it's SO obvious." First of all, though I am far from immune to making assumptions about people's identities based on stereotypes, I was honestly furious at the idea that none of my queer friends could accept the idea of a cishet man with effeminate mannerisms and queer-seeming interests. Like, most of these friends identified somewhere on the non-binary spectrum and/or as bi or pansexual, aka groups that should know all about how harmful thinking in terms of rigid binaries and claiming certain characteristics MUST only belong to people with certain identities can be. And as for the idea that repeatedly asking invasive questions you have already been told to stop asking would make someone feel MORE comfortable and able to be their authentic self around you???? Nope. Not buying that. He was already surrounded by queer friends who were out and proud, what more could we have done to make him feel comfortable than just being ourselves and respecting his boundaries?
So eventually he came out as gay, and told everyone in no uncertain terms that he had had been in the closet both because he wanted time to figure himself out without feeling like he'd labeled himself irreversibly, and also because he was not ready to be out to his family. And that he was coming out sooner than he would have chosen to because no one would leave him alone about it. And everyone felt pretty shitty.
Anyway, I think about this friend a lot when I hear about people bugging celebrities about their identities. I mean, I think we all speculate. We all wonder. We'd all love to see more people like ourselves out there representing us. But questioning and closeted people exist and are a part of our community that need to be respected, and trying to force anyone - friend or public figure - to come out, violates the privacy, autonomy, and in many cases safety of people within these groups. Are there probably celebrities who wish they could be out but feel they can't be because of pressure from their management? I'm sure there are. But there's really no way for us to know the difference between them and someone who hasn't figured their identity out yet, or someone who feels unsafe coming out, or someone who just wants some damn privacy. So when I feel frustrated at an actress I think is straight taking a queer role, or a singer I think is obviously queer refusing to acknowledge it, I think about my friend who had a TERRIBLE coming out experience, not because of homophobic reactions from straight people, but because of the behavior of his queer friends who had deluded themselves into thinking they were being supportive, when really they just wanted to be right.
Anyway, sorry for the rambling comment. As always, this was an insightful and informative video essay that I very much enjoyed watching, even if the subject discussed makes me feel extremely icky.
The thing I hate most about this is that it plays into the "straight until proven gay" expectation
you must be new on the internet, from what I've seen, it's the other way around^^ gaysayers even put people who were married for 50 years and had 10 children into their dumb "30 celebs who were secretly gay"-videos.
@@Amphitera Are you new to the world? Maybe much of the internet is more gay-centered, sure. But I wasn't talking about the internet. The straight until proven gay thing is a very basic concept. Why else would gay people have to come out to their families??? Do straight people have to come out? I shouldn't have to explain that to you since you're just soooo bombarded by the gay agenda. You'd think you would've picked up on more of it.
I think the lack of empathy stems from people seeing celebrities as characters and brands rather than people.
you're absolutely right about your end point of this culture normalizing outing and speculation in real life. in middle school/early high school i really fucked up some friendships by speculating about people i knew. as a young queer kid who had seen this stuff modeled for me online i felt entitled to their identities. it was gross voyeuristic fun. it's been years but i still feel guilty about the things i said and did.
So happy you're talking about this! I just wanted to add some of my own experiences. I was a Larrie during my very early teen years (probably 12-14) and I started engaging with the theory around the same time I was questioning/coming to terms with being queer. The community aspect you touched on really rings true, as almost every other person there was also queer. I was drawn to this at a time when I was out to absolutely no one in my life, and felt super isolated, and I have genuinely positive memories being on twitter when the newest freddieismyqueen video dropped, or new lyrics were released to analyse together. It also felt kind of empowering to take these figure who was a big part of my childhood, and who were incredibly influential, and turn them into queer icons. So for me at least, that's what the draw was, and it was what kept me in the community, even though most of us knew deep down it was wrong.
I spent a lot of time in the past few years struggling to figure out my own identity. Am I straight, am I bi, am I cis, am I trans, am I asexual? All that pain and frustration of trying to find an identity that matched my experience vanished as soon as I let myself accept that I didn't have to put a label to any of it. There is so much talk in the queer community of sexual orientation as an identity that not having a sexual orientation could be mistaken as not having an identity, but that's so far from the truth. And it puts me in a strange position where it is actually not possible for me to come out, not because I'm still questioning, but because the answer has no name. I wonder how many celebrities have come out as gay or bi, despite not really fitting that, because they needed to put some name to it for their demanding fans, only to find themselves constrained by the label, their own complex identity being smoothed over and forced to conform.
Exactly. I spent quite some time when younger to question my identity. Was I straight, as I thought a long time? Was I gay since I sometimes liked girls? Funnily (not really) I had become convinced that "bi" didn't exist - only gay or straight were my possibilities. I never fit the label of a typical girl but I am clearly a girl, what's that all about? So on and so forth. The later teens and early twenties were for sure an interesting time...
Kit Connor probably has a lot of years left to figure himself out and it's horrible that people are forcing him to put a definitive label on himself.
Oooooh finally some sanity. I hope more people in this community think like you
I really think that we're going to evolve to a point of no labels for the most part. it really feels the most natural.
Wouldn't be surprise at all if later on Kit decided to change his label and suddenly everyone turned on him saying: "you lied", when they were the ones telling him to label himself in the first place
THANK YOU THIS IS WHAT I’VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY! “queerbaiting” refers to FICTIONAL stories, a real human person can’t queerbait, it’s called just being alive and doing what you want (ik it’s maybe different when money is involved, but you can act as gay [whatever tf that means] as you want)
This has been on my mind a lot lately as someone who is out to very few people in my life, I find it discouraging that people defend the speculation they are doing because they are celebrities and technically brands, but they only feel comfortable to know every detail of the famous person sexuality and don't think critically about how this will translate to people trying to come out or figure out their sexuality and the difficulties it adds to their journey .
I also think there’s a discussion here as to what is considered ‘coming out’. I feel like there’s a pressure on celebrities to use a label, to speak about their sexuality all the time. But realistically, that’s not how most of us come out or live, especially outside of the US and it’s strict narratives around it.
Most of my ‘coming outs’ have been flippant jokes, or a well timed “well…”. I would definitely consider saying “I don’t use labels” as properly coming out. There are many celebrities that I consider very much out because of things they’ve said casually. I just don’t go around then assuming who they’ve been in a relationship with and if I am wrong then it’s no big deal
When I was in high school, specifically 11th grade, there were suddenly 3 separate, completely random people asking my friends behind my back if I was a lesbian. All because I had one friend in particular with whom I spent lunch, hung out after school, and happened to share a couple classes. Normal friend stuff. The problem with their speculation was that it felt accusatory, and made me feel very negatively toward the word lesbian and toward any question I already had about my sexuality. As a result, I was 22 before I finally accepted my attraction to women, and 25 and in my first relationship (with a woman, but also with anyone), that I was finally comfortable to call myself a lesbian. The funny? Sad? part of it all, was not only was I not attracted to the friend that everyone accused me of being, but I also might have been able to come to terms with my sexuality, personally, a lot sooner had those people just kept their thoughts to themselves.
Now, to imagine that the 3 people who did that to me, were writing fanfiction, or tabloid articles, or were hundreds of thousands of people all calling themselves my fans. I honestly don't know what that would have done to my mental health.
For me, the conversation around this is so incredibly frustrating. Because I never came out. But I'm also not closeted. I just date people, openly, regardless of gender, and I have been since I was 14. I made that decision because thats how it should be? We shouldn't have to come out. We shouldn't have to make some big declaration to *anyone* about our preferences except maybe the people we want to date. It should be just, normal to date people. And then people suddenly start making this huge ordeal about someone maybe not being queer and playing a queer character as if queer people have never convincingly played straight characters or straight people played queer characters or something. It doesn't matter? Just let people date who they wanna date
I've ranted about this on other videos before, but as a femme bisexual who is only ever in visibly queer relationships, it pisses me off how there seems to be a lot of people out here who vilify straight passing relationships. Like, being bisexual and not ending up in the gayest possible relationship isn't bad representation or a betrayal of queerness. It's literally just life. Also, taking this to another level when it's actual people doing something as innocent as holding hands with someone of the opposite gender is just...wow. And another thing, putting pressure on men in queer spaces to end up with other queer men for your personal gratification is creepy and reeks of misogyny. I almost never see the same kind of pressure aimed at queer women unless TERFs are involved. I'm hoping that these people are just desperate teens who will grow out of this and regret what they're doing. We all know forcing people out of the closet is bad. That includes actors, writers, artists. Clearly, we're no longer in the era where portraying a queer person gets you clout. I'm content to assume that people who participate in queer media have a connection to it. We're not entitled to know what that connection is.
sadly that pressure definitely does get applied to bi women as well - people acted like aubrey plaza had personally spit in their faces and called them a slur when she got married to a man
@@friday13thirteen yeah i've noticed this too--a lot of openly bi women who are public figures and in straight-presenting relationships get treated like they've betrayed all their sapphic fans
@@friday13thirteen 100%.To clarify, it's not that I think the pressure doesn't happen with bi women. I think there's an added layer of fetishism with men in queer spaces (that aren't lesbian specific) that makes it happen more often. At least, it makes it happen more visibly. Sort of the queer fantasy equivalent of lesbian p*rn except it comes up in all types of consumable media. I don't know if I'm explaining it right. I think this has a lot to do with shipping culture. Because, yeah, lesbian spaces for bisexual women are treacherous af. Those were the kinds of TERFs I was thinking of.
Maybe it's because I'm in trans spaces too (I'm nb), but I definitely feel that one of these groups is held in higher esteem than the other outside of sapphic specific spaces.
Regardless, it's all toxic AF and needs to stop.
@@analysiswitch6095 yup, I noticed this when phoebe bridgers and paul mescal were reported to be engaged: "she's for girls only" etc..
@@madeupname3008 yeah that's actually one of the situations I was thinking of when I wrote that!
People don't get that entertainers WORK for our entertainment but they don't EXIST for our entertainment.
I remember being in fandom spaces in the early 00s and there being some LotR fans being way too invested in trying to ship the actors together. There were all kind of conspiracies, like their managers/PR stopping them from being out so they were “sending secret messages” only those “in the know” could pick it up. It came off ridiculous back then to me and it is sad to see it continue on with other fandoms/celebrities.
reminds me of qanon today
heh I was looking for this comment. That was a WILD time 😬
The only i would change in this video is that Harry IS unlabeled. He's talked about it on interviews and it's frustrating that everyone simply ignores that and keeps calling him straight (and it frustrated me more in this video considering that Harry has a lot in common with Kit with the difference being that Harry still prefers to be unlabeled despite everything, the similarities are even more present considering the press and promotion around My Policeman as a movie with a fully queer cast). His music isn't just "straight music that allow for queer readings" and repeating that line near the end sort of contributes to the toxic queer-speculation this video is critiquing.
I agree but what My Policemen promotion are you referring too? I definitely haven't seen that
@@adairs7498 The director of the movie stated a few times in interviews/Q&A's the importance of the fact that My Policeman had an all queer cast.
@thereal finalgirl well, he's unlabeled publicly, yeah. I think he mentioned somewhere he has a label but only his close friends and family know
He actually has a label but it's mostly for friends and family
I don't know if irony is the right word here but Alice Oseman's I Was Born For This literally talks about this. About fans overanalyzing the celebrity's every action, become so obsessed with their ships that they forget they are talking about real people, demanding they come out.
Long time Questioning lady here: Thank you for giving a damn.
we need to remember that the algorithms on social media work like echo chambers, while it may seem that everything we interact with is queer-positive, the world isn't always as accepting. It's important we don't forget to have empathy for closeted people and make space for them in the community, make sure they feel welcomed and accepted. This means that we need to invite "straight" people into our circles (obviously not at the expense of our own well-being) and show them that we are a loving community.
An absolutely amazing video! The whole Kit Connor situation made me so sad honestly... It really does feel so indicative of the witch trials in a way, a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation where no one wins and we get no closer to feeling any safer or more liberated as a community...
I remember watching Sense8 on Netflix and Lito's storyline was that he was a closeted tv star being forced to come out. His character narrative was that he was a selfish man who would do anything to keep his "dirty" secret from the media and therefore he was labelled a coward by the show. His "arc" was him coming out, risking his entire career, to get his boyfriend back and save his friend from a bad situation she was in. It was so problematic, I didn't understand why people thought this was ok! Nobody should be shamed or punished for being in the closet, especially when there's a very real danger or harsh consequences for doing so.
There is also problem with amantonormativity and the idea that all interactions with people with "compatible gender" are, in some way, romantic.
In seeking conformation of their theory, shippers took every sign of affection (eye contact, kiss on the cheek, buying things together) between their targets as proof of romance. It's incredibly limiting in what interactions you can have with people that are your friends, because if any gesture can be deemed "not platonic enough" for the public, what's left? Your relationships are under constant surveillance and it sounds terryfing.
Fragment about hyper-analising every connection especially hit hard, not only because of this damned trope, but also because there shouldn't be any need to be hyper-vigilant in how you present during meeting with your friends. It's "friendzone" all over again.
As someone who was very unfortunately part of the whole larry stupidity, I can say that you hit the nail on the head here. It was creepy, and invasive and there were so many cognitive distortions going on all around me. It honestly felt like a cult, especially as I started to doubt when Louis had his son. I lost friends and people called me all sorts of shit for thinking we were being weird when fans actually got hands on this real birth certificate!
I was never one to go post directly to their posts or to their aquantainces or girlfriends or anything like that, but what I did then was still very wrong. I engaged in that over-analysing and creepily moralistic idea that we were the only ones on their side. Also the rainbow bears shit was crazy.
However, I feel like this experience has given me a good moral compass, albeit the hard way, when it comes to this. And I feel like there is some nuance missing in your video, though I defnitely agree with 90% of it. I think that many people who think Taylor might be gay, or Harry, or any kpop idol (especially interesting when you consider how conservative their environement is), are very often just observing a possibility. I have more often come across a more relaxed and neutral sort of speculation that is more an acknowldgement that it is possible, even probable, they are queer, without any sort of claim for absolute truth or a moral perspective on it. Especially in some fandoms with large homophobic sections, just fighting about the assumption that the celebrity has to be straight, is part of creating a safe-space for queer fans. I think that this kind of speculation, or reading of a public persona, is morally neutral as long as it doesn't come with any expectations on the person, or any willful distortion of reality.
In fact, I think that being always aware that people can be queer, regardless of their public persona, is important to avoid hurting potentially closeted public people. It certainly would've helped in the case of Kit, if more people had come out saying that he might not be straight and he doesn't need to come out for that to be the case. When a celebrity or artist is using queer-coded imagery, celebrating that with the acnowldgement that it might be special to them too is better than completely ignoring it or worse, praising them for being an ally while violently "defending" them against accusations of being queer. For Kit, and for Harry, I feel they had both been pretty clear about the fact that they could be queer. That should've been more than enough for people to stop the harrassment.
As many queer people in fandom know, the goal is to not assume anyone's sexuality, including straight.
This is very well put! I think it's particularly damaging to keep using the word "straight" for artists who have not labelled themselves. While Taylor has been vague about her position, Harry has explicitly rejected labels, and stated that he hasn't publicly been with women or men, so in calling him a "straight artist how may or may not come out" there is a reinforcement of heteronormativity and the assumption that queer people must perform coming out rituals. With Taylor swift, I think that the backlash against "gaylors" should actually be towards all fans who speculate about who she is dating as she has repeatedly expressed discomfort with that, and the reduction of her songs to one man as if it's a "paternity test".
@@neeliknowsnothing he's only been publicly with women. That's why is almost sure he's just queerbaiting cause his fanbase (straight teen girls) eat that shit up and gives him more clout.
@@JessicaCJones wtf. Real people can't queerbait. Maybe he just likes to dress like that. Maybe he just has intense friendships.
@@Margatatials you can keep living in your idealist fantasy world. I prefer the real world with history and facts.
@@JessicaCJones Queer BAITING includes stringing people along under teh hopes that it will eventually be revealed the person is gay. But it will never be your business to know the sexuality or personal information of a total stranger like a celebrity. The idea that you might be entitled to know that is para-social and gross.
I, admittedly, have my own headcanon; ships that I indulge in; but I have never (not ONCE) ever deluded myself into thinking that they are real. Especially when it comes to celebrities. I've always been the type of person who looks at it like this: If they are queer, good for them. If they are not, good for them. If they want to keep their sexuality to themselves, good for them. If they want to come out and are comfortable doing so, good for them. I don't need to know. And if they don't want me to know, they are under no obligation to tell me. I never understood fans who demand to know such things. Like, dude, mind your own effing business and let me mind mine.
Nothing gets my goat more then when I post my TS song analysis and gaylors call me delusional and homophobic bc I interpreted a song to be about a man and if I dare to point out their version of the song is also just their personal interpretation not fact I get dog piled on
Word. And I don't know about TS, but certainly some songwriters intentionally make their love songs gender-open not to signal something about their own sexuality, but to allow more people in the audience to identify with them / to make more space for covers. Maybe the reason TS is avoiding using "he" so much in her songs is to be welcoming to listeners who are currently into a not-"he" human.
@@camipco even when she uses he/him pronouns in her song they still say it's about karlie Kloss lmao
I didn't know that happened with Fifth Harmony, and it makes me so sad. ☹️ I'm homeless right now, and, obviously, a women's shelter is not an affirming place. As an intersex person, I had to deal with speculation about my identity from the moment I got to the shelter. I've had to self-police the way I interact with other residents, especially in the shared shower space and when we're changing clothes in the morning and at night. I've seen the women police other residents who are visibly queer. And, some queer residents have even policed each other. It's all so exhausting.
Yess i keep seeing this kid on tik tok who i believe is only 13 and everyone in the comments saying he’s “zesty”aka gay (idk why) and he even said he wasnt gay. People will demand and assume something about someone they dont even know and even if they deny it people will still refuse to believe it.. same goes for when anyone says anything online. From a girl who’s naturally skinny but accused to having an ED to the couch guy thing on tik tok assuming someone is cheating, to assuming sexualities just by doing a tik tok dance or their voice. People need to STOP assuming things and believe in the person if they tell their truths.
People can think they are so entitled and insist they must know someone’s sexuality gender race identity relationship status religion etc.. entitlement is so dangerous and unnecessary
This is something I’ve been working on with my youngest and their friends. They are 12 and keep commenting on the sexuality of classmates as factual information when said classmates are not out. So, I’ve been teaching about how harmful assumptions can be and that they wouldn’t like it if it were happening to them.
It’s even crazier to me because they are, in fact, closeted to the majority of these people themselves. I’ve also been trying to teach the whole group how self definition really works and I think I broke them all a bit, but I have at least planted a seed.
Just adding to the point about Harvey Milk (and the other gays of that generation calling for folks to come out). The call was always directed at grown-ass gay adults, not to teenagers. Milk himself didn't fully come out until his early 40s.
I loved heartstopper. It's a beautiful uplifting story and really helped pull me through a dark time. I was devastated when I saw people target this very young actor, like he owed them this information. It was horrible. I'm also sick of people misusing important concepts like gaslighting, grooming, and queerbaiting. It obscures these very real issues.
I've been saying for a while that I think a lot of it comes down to terminally online queer people and allies that have crafted their own safe spaces and are kind of losing their grip on the real life dangers of coming out. These safe spaces are crucial and important and life saving - in a lot of ways I am a big fan of them - but they can also kind of distort understanding about just how dangerous and disapproving the world still is towards many queer people.
Like you said - there's this assumption that coming out is "easy" nowadays and that not doing it is harmful and I think many people who engage in that kind of thinking and the subsequent online harassment that follows are genuinely just terminally online kids who are so affirmed by their personal corner of the internet (and that's a beautiful thing!!!!) that they just lose sight of how bad things still are.
This really reminded me of what happened with Isobel Fall in the SF/F community (Tl;dr - unknown author writes controversial short story with trans themes, SF/F twitter including some big names turns into a frenzy speculating that Fall cannot possibly be trans, ultimately Fall, a trans woman, asks for the story to be removed and as far as we know, detransitions because of the trauma, many people on twitter, including some big names, maintain that they were in the right or just never apologise)
Wow that’s horrible. Fandom brain rot is so toxic.
Right?! I’m a straight looking female and have been low key looked down upon in queer spaces or roasted harder than other people for not being queer enough. I identify as non binary and they/them and dress like a conservative (wearing below knee a line dresses almost exclusively) and am not seen as gay enough in queer spaces, but too queer in straight spaces.
My partner is an immigrant and queer spaces feel safer to me because of being more liberal leaning. But being targeted due to being “normal enough” looking, attractive but not sexualized, and in a hetero relationship makes going to these spaces increasingly a source of anxiety for me. Not to mention a “normal” appearance is a well developed survival strategy I developed due to being alternative in just about every way. Helps to mask around dangerous people.
This has been on my mind for a little while since I saw articles speculating that a celebrity was gay just because she got a pixie cut. I'm so glad to see someone covering this, thank you!!
This video partly speaks to why I am personally uncomfortable with RPF. Fantasizing and making assumptions about someone’s private life (celebrity and non-celebrity alike) seems incredibly invasive and dismissive of that person as, well, a person. I’d be way more willing to engage with Kpop if it wasn’t such a slippery slope into depersonalizing these idols into dolls whose only purpose is to fit an aesthetic, kink, or ship. As it is, I have popular Kpop tags blocked and have even stopped listening to artists I used to like because I’m horrified at the possibility I may one day no longer see them as human beings.
The part of the video about "Gaylor" and "Larry" sounds genuinely psychotic, that's like Qanon levels of mental gymnastics
I feel like someone in particular I don't see this talked about enough with is Katie McGrath. She's conventionally attractive, kind about ships that involve her characters, and plays queercoded or outright queer characters a lot so obvs people thirst over her and want to believe her playing queer roles is "authentic" representation as it were. But she's also such an intensely private person, with no social media presence, the most she ever pops up is occasionally on a friend or coworker's instagram every few months. And the way people have endlessly speculated about her sexuality in fandoms has made me so deeply uncomfortable, and it's so hard when I love her as an actress and want to follow her work but there is this small subset of fans that, since they can't harass her directly with her lack of social media presence, they harass the people around her. The incredibly racist shit that got thrown at Rahul Kohli and Mehcad Brookes for daring to be cast as love interests across from her in Supergirl and being friendly with her outside of work, Azie Tesfai being flooded with random questions about Katie when she was trying to do a serious livestream on BLM issues. There was even a very small but vitriolic side of the SG fandom that harassed Melissa Benoist and Chris Wood after they got together, operating under the delusion that Melissa and Katie were actually dating and Melissa dating and eventually marrying Chris was all a PR cover (considering how we now know her previous marriage before Chris was, it particularly sickens me that people wanted to so badly tear down her loving and healthy relationship with Chris just because of ships on the show). Katie's never been confirmed as dating any male costars she's been linked to so MUST be gay - it can't just be that any relationships she has been in, like everything else in her life, are kept private because that's what she's comfortable with.
What’s even funnier is that Emily Beckett Richards was right there dating Aisha Tyler all along but not a single person speculated about her being a WLW because she portrayed a straight character on TV and wasn’t part of any WLW ships. It really goes to show that this mentality is just born from shipping culture and fandom and is what happens when you mix that with a lack of boundaries and the same kind of right wing conspiracy theory mentality that leads people on the far right into things like QAnon. It’s not actually about finding actors who are queer. It’s about I WANT this person to be queer. I have reached the conclusion I want so I will look for evidence of my conclusion using the techniques I already apply to fictional TV shows. Nobody cares when actors are gay if they aren’t part of popular fandoms and ships, like nobody gives a single solitary shit that EBR is dating a woman like I said. She’s not part of the queer zeitgeist so her being out is totally unimportant to people. (Ironically she got harassed by straight people who thought she should marry her male co star in real life and thought she and Stephen Amell were in a real straight relationship)
I feel the same way.
I found out about the racist comments against Rahul Kohli and Mehcad Brooks much later after it happened but I watched the whole ‘Chris-Melissa is a PR relationship’ thing go down pretty much live. And it was so disgusting. Especially when the comments continued even AFTER Melissa revealed her previous domestically abusive relationship and how Chris played a huge part in her healing due to his work with IDONTMIND.
I actually do want someone to bring attention to this, probably with a video like this. But at the same time, doing it now will blow the whole thing into unimaginable proportions and that just feels wrong, especially bc of how intensely private Katie is
This is why shipping real people can become very murky very fast. Because instead of dealing with characters that exist inside enclose fictional universe; now real people are made to treat fan theories and speculation with gravitas that can potentially affect lives and relationships. Imagine you can't be friends with someone because it'll be taken a queerbaiting or signaling. That's gotta be rough
Yeah, you have to be very careful with that, very very *careful*
This seriously reminds me of the whole deal about Cavetown being outed. He was being cancelled for saying some bad things when he was like, 14 maybe? But people were going after him for saying a transphobic slur, and he was cornered and had to come out as trans to the whole world when he wasn't ready and was trying to go stealth. It was really sad, and it was super clear how awful he felt about having to out himself when he didn't want to come out. I think he's more comfortable now with being out to people and everything, so I guess things turned out alright in the end, but it was still awful how everything played out. We're here for you, Robin.
I’m straight and I have a queer friend who has been continuously trying to somehow convince me I’m gay for months now despite my obvious romantic relationship with the opposite gender. they’ve even gone so far as to flirt with me and ask me on multiple occasions if I liked them in that way, or I find them attractive, or if I actually wanted to be their partner. it’s so frustrating. yet when the news of kit came out they were reposting it on all of their social medias expressing how horrible these ppl who did this to him were.
like what?
Sounds like someone you shouldn't be friends with
please get new friends, they sound horrible😭
That's not a friend, sorry to say :( If they aren't satisfied with just your friendship they don't deserve it.
They're not your friend, any more than "nice guys" who complain about the friendzone are actually friends with the women they're lusting after.
babes they're in love with you, run
I came out pretty "late" in life and two vital elements of my coming out journey have been being able to explore my sexuality by writing about fictional characters and being surrounded by people (mostly queer but not only) who never EVER questioned my situation, even when it was borderline ridiculous to refer to myself as straight. I was absolutely horrified by the Kit Connor's situation. I completely understand engaging in speculation, writing and other fandom practices, the majority of the time people are writing/talking about others on the surface when said practices are actually about themselves, their comfort, their self-discovery and so on. You know, the golden rule of the fandom, "do what you like in the fandom but leave the poor real life people alone". But I was low-key shocked there are some queer people/fandom people out there legitimately convinced this level of harassment is ok. Thank you for covering the topic! 💙
I recently watched heartstopper and I teared up at connors role , as a bisexual myself I felt everything that I went through was real , and most importantly I was so happy that Charlie let Nick to come out when he was ready to do so because for me experience was totally opposite, I felt the pressure to come out to my friends to feel like a real bisexual, one my friends would always ask me why I didn't come out to my another friend and that would put me into real pressure cuz I wasn't really comfortable to come out to that person, as much as I hate coming out ppl that I'm not comfortable with I also hate ppl assuming sexuality and gender of other people by thier looks and behaviour which cleary mean nothing
Once while speaking with my classmate I unknowingly spoke in a tone , in a very exaggerated way and it is one of my habits which I hadn't noticed until that classmate went - 'you speaking like gay and trans ppl do' and started laughing, I haven't come out to my parents or in public except few very very intimate friends , this made me really insecure and I started to notice everything I did henceforth and started changing everything , speculating that I was acting maybe a little bit too queer , sometimes I would panick that maybe I have come out unintentionally if someone figures out , it took me a while to get out of this and start being myself
Bisexual erasure is one of the things that irks me whenever people attempt to call out "queerbaiting". It's as if people forget that being queer is not just about liking the same gender. It's about celebrating sexual and gender differences. So many people try to gatekeep what it means to be queer or LGBTQ+. Not to mention, these same people will encourage others to explore but then when they actually do they are accused of queerbaiting or doing it for attention. This almost always happens to people identifying as bisexual.
Honestly, most of the time I see someone from the lgbtq+ talking about bisexuality I get the image that they want to see them dating a man and a woman at the same time to prove that they are bi because if it's only someone from a different sex is considered straight and if it's the same it's "one of us".
And that's coming from a aroace, you know the ones that they try to pretend we don't exist too because "we are just confused" or "never had experience to be certain".
thank you so much for making this video. what happened to kit makes me so viscerally upset. the way the internet combines access to media and proximity to celebrity has made people feel so entitled towards things that they are not entitled to at all. people deeply identify with taylor's music or nick's character on heartstopper, and that feeling of being seen is great, but the identification can no longer stop at just the art. it MUST extend to the whole person. people use celebrity as a vessel for their own self actualization without any regard for or empathy towards the person who made that impactful art in the first place! (and beyond self actualization they may also use it as a form of social currency in fandom, which is even more disheartening). I saw a tweet earlier that seems disconnected but it made me think. apparently people were going on social media to talk about how they don't like sza's music anymore because they no longer relate to her lyrics about toxic relationships. the tweet rightfully pointed out that you don't need to identify with a piece of art to appreciate it, and I think the inverse is also true. if you DO identify with a piece of art, you don't need to look to the artist themselves for affirmation because the interpretation of the art is yours. queer readings are part of academia, they can be deeply personal and introspective, they don't need to spiral into conspiracies (you hit the nail on the head talking about easter eggs). I hope kit can find time to heal from this awful, frankly traumatic experience.
also, completely unrelated but your hair and makeup look super rad in this vid, especially your eyebrows they fucking rule, thanks again for speaking on this rowan
Loved this video a lot! My thoughts regarding Gaylor and others have always been "meh, if they ever come out one day, good for them, if not why should I care, it's their lives, not mine". And, like, I get that we all want to be able to look up to people that share our identity and that for a long time queer celebrities were rare, but things have been changing, there are plenty of queer artists to support nowadays. It is very disheartening that we have reached a stage where people don't have a safe space to get through their queer journey at their own pace.
Regarding the point about moral superiority, I'll only note that this seems to extend way beyond the queer community. There's this tendency nowadays to think that nobody is allowed to make mistakes. You've got a friend who tweeted something stupid and borderline racist ten years ago? Since you are still hanging out with that person, you are by definition racist! There's no nuance, no margin for error, and no place for change or progress. And that moral superiority is used a lot to harass random people and celebrities alike.
Anyway, some people need to chill the f out.
A lot of your examples from the end are making me realize how queer *identity* (and the public performance of it) is being used as a proxy for a wide variety of experiences. I'm queer, and I wouldn't be remotely qualified to judge ball performances. "What's your experience with ball culture?" seems like a less invasive and better question to be asking someone in Jameela's position, if her suitability for the judging gig is in question. And I feel the same way about the person saying Albertalli had "no connection to the queer community"--how could you possibly know that? Her being straight wouldn't, hypothetically, mean she has no community connections any more than her being bi means she does have experience with or connections to the community. At the end of the day, an internal label doesn't have that much to do with the authenticity of the queer art you'll make *on its own*.
I honestly hate gender speculation. One very dear friend of mine was pretty feminine and soft-spoken... And people bullied him for being gay, which is just wrong, but the worst part is that the kid wasn't. He many times told me "I wish I were gay. I even tried to like guys so all of this would make sense, but I just don't know". At the end, he is asexual. But he doesn't know if he is really asexual or he ended up hating the idea of sex because he was forced to try to decide who he was attracted to when he was too young.
A similar thing happened to me. I was so much labelled as "too masculine" that even my mom thought I could be lesbian. I knew I liked guys so I started questioned myself whether I was bi, even though I didn't feel sexual attraction towards girls but, "hey, everyone is saying I "must" like girls" because of how masculine I was (and my masculinity was mostly steaming from my tastes, I guess). I was actually just a tween when I had the "are you sure you are not gay?" conversation with my mom. What am I going to say at 12/13? If anyone is sure about anything at that age I'm sincerely happy for you, but it surely wasn't my case. So, yeah, it turned out I'm straight. Boring, cis, straight. But it was difficult. I even had sex with a girl once because I really wanted to know (and didn't enjoy it. Luckily I didn't harm her, I was very open with what I needed to test and she was totally in for it and we are still friends, but I still felt bad for "using her" like that 😢).
i don't remember when i had this convo with my mom, but at some point there was a non-binary character on one of her tv shows. we got to talking about how the actor also identified as non-binary and who should be allowed to play queer characters. she saw it ahead of time that restricting who could play a gay character would cause more people to be hurt especially if they weren't out.
wild how my catholic mom who doesn't love that i'm bi saw this before i even clocked that it could lead to issues
I'm 68. I had no idea this crap was so pernicious.
Hell, James Whale's direction of "Frankenstein " was intentional Queer allegory. Garland's "Rainbow " is still a Queer anthem.
I agree with you. If these speculators, theorists and outright gossips used their powers for good, we could probably vanquish Queer and Trans hatred overnight.
The missing element is respect.
We see each other as products, not people.
So glad you mentioned what happened with Becky Albertalli, and I highly recommend her upcoming book that's inspired by that experience, Imogen Obviously. It's...basically about the exact topic of this video. I just read an advance copy last week and it was fantastic!
I feel like as a fan of any person we should have the mindset of "oh they are queer? good for them! I want them to be happy so I will support and cheer for them and whomever they love". It shouldn't be information we dig for and speculate about, if they wanna tell us thats super cool and we should be honoured- but if not we should be okay with that too:)
The Hozier part is spot-on. My girlfriend and I recently went to a concert of his and we kept spotting lesbian couples (we were in awe, as you can imagine). We had no idea he appealed to so many sapphics and the concert was delightful!
I’m against speculating people’s sexualities as a whole, it’s just not our business or our place. But the ones who do it while compiling out-of-context clips that allude to intimacy/lust are clearly acting out of self-indulgence and it stops being about “seeing” them. It doesn’t matter if those people are queer or adults, it’s so violating. You can appreciate and even enjoy the affection between your celebrities or idols without sexualizing it or doubting platonic affection.