There will be a "rapture" event. We know this. It's the "when". But, I am not in the "pre-trib" camp. I do think that Christians will go through a portion of these days.
Thank you for explaining in a calm respectful manor your response to John Rich’s attack on the Rapture! He attacked Jack Hibbs, saying he lied! Jack Hibbs doesn’t lie nor would be ever mislead his church! If it ever turned out that he was incorrect, he would correct it instantly! He is not a lier Mr. Rich!
Well said! Jack would correct it immediately! It’s obvious that Rich doesn’t know anything about Jack Hibbs! The traditional churches teach rapture after Tribulation, while evangelical churches tend to believe in the rapture before Tribulation. It’s a matter of interpretation. Belief either way doesn’t make a person a lier! Rich was wrong to call him one! Jack is a wonderful pastor!
The problem with your theory is the book of Revelation was not written to Israelites or Jews. The seven churches were not in Israel. Also, if all of the saints get raptured as you say, then how would they still be present on earth for the entire book of Revelation, as the Bible says? See Rev. 13:10, Rev. 14:12, Matthew 24-25, etc. We’d all like to believe there’s an escape hatch that prevents us from suffering, but the Bible makes it very clear that we will go through trials and the tribulation.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Here's my explanation. It's true that John addresses the seven churches, and the first three chapters are concerned with conditions in those churches, but after chapter three the focus changes. Everything centers on the Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, the Temple. You could say that the book was written to the seven churches, but most of it is not about the seven churches. The tribulation saints are those who are saved after the Rapture. And I agree that Christians are not exempt from suffering, trials, tribulation and persecution. We are, however, exempt from the wrath of God, which the earth will experience as mentioned in Revelation 6:16 and 17.
No where, because the bible does not teach a seven year tribulation at the end of the world. The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world is the great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America..@@lorihanson273
@@lambanei1 There is no seven year tribulation in the bible , if there was and many people become tribulation saints as dispensational theology teaches.Then the Lord would be pouring out His wrath on a large portion of His bride. Because there is only one bride, one church, and one body of Christ made up of all who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, no distinction.Unfortunately dispensationalists love to make distinctions between the Jews, the Church , and the tribulation saints.
Very nice work on this Pastor Tim. You hit on some of the key points of scripture about the "catching away" of the pre-trib saints and its sad and often dissapointing that more believers who argue about this topic don't simply take the time to actually READ what the Bible actually says about it. FACT : The rapture is going to come one day (1 Thessalonians 4:17-18). No one should be arguing this. The only question is its "Timing". And on that issue you have laid out key bibilical points regarding its timing. Thank you.
Thank you Tim for posting this. There is so much dissention within the "church" about the rapture(harpazo) of the body of Christ. I like you am firm on the rapture of the church coming before the evil one to come is revealed and from scripture it's clear he cannot be revealed until He ( Holy Spirit)who restrains is taken out of the way. I'm thankful for the promise from God that He will come for us. That fills my heart with an urgency to be salt and light and to be ready everyday to declare the gospel to any who will listen before it's too late. We can't do anything except pray for the lost and be available as bond servants to be used by our Lord to fulfill the great commission given to us by Jesus who saved us and empowers us by His Holy Spirit. Maranatha.
What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine? Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." (The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected. The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Watch the TH-cam video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626. Watch the TH-cam video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to see the original source of the "Two Peoples of God" doctrine.
If only people would do their homework on just who and what the Darby family was. The Darbys once owned the most notorious castle in Ireland that has had a long history of indescribably ghastly events happening there. The castle is Leap Castle. There's a lot of historical information about this awful place available on you tube and google. It's long had a reputation of being haunted and the current owner of the partially ruined structure also claims it's haunted. The Darbys inherited Leap castle via marriage from the brutal and hideous O'Carrol clan. The O'Carrols had built an oubliette into the castle which was basically a room shaped like a giant bottle with only one opening at the very top. At the bottom of this "bottle" the floor had tall sharpened posts stuck in the ground, and when a person was thrown into to this thing they landed on the spikes. There was no way out of this room, the victim would die in there. The castle was built in the early 1500's and was the site of massacres and torture executions. Mildred Darby lived in the castle back in the 1800's and claimed she'd encountered an elemental demon that had the body of a sheep and yet a human head - and it smelled like a rotten corpse. Mildred Darby was a popular writer who developed the genre of "gothic novels" which presents occult stuff for entertaining reading. John Nelson Darby had spent some time in the castle as well, although he didn't live there full time - but other Darbys did. The Darby family just by their association with and ownership of this awful place discredit themselves. John Darby later founded the now defunct Plymouth Brethren Church/sect which included as members the Crowley family. Look up Aleister Crowley and read about this well known and notorious black magician who once attended Darby's church as a youth. Senior Crowley was very active in Darby's ministry. As for the castle, it's estimated that up to 150 people were murdered at this place with many tortured first before dying. It's beyond me how anyone thinks any good could have come out of the Darby tribe to begin with. And a Darby is the source of all the dispensational theology? Good and bad fruit doesn't come off the same tree. Here's a typical you tube video giving the ghastly history of Leap Castle - watch it and weap! th-cam.com/video/UEAkl6UEr5o/w-d-xo.html
@@Robert-l9s9k Darby didn’t invent the pre tribulation rapture, you seem to have gone to great lengths to research Darby , how about researching Polycarp, Ireanus, Ephraim to name a few of the early church fathers that believed in pre tribulation. Polycarp was bishop of the churches in Turkey that are mentioned in Rev and he was appointed and trained by the Apostle John. As for the all the bad fruit out of the Darby household, remember Saul before he became Paul lot of bad fruit until his conversion
@@heknows5418 You are correct, Darby did not originate The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world. The great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America.
@@heknows5418 Yes, you are correct, Darby did not originate The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world. The great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America.
I don’t mind my brothers in Christ having different views on the resurrection of the saints, I just have a problem when people like John Rich disparage pre tribbers so negatively. He got his talking points from others instead of searching it out for himself. How do I know?( you don’t get the “Darby” argument from the Bible). I have brothers in Christ that hold a different view than I and that’s alright but I refuse to chastise them like they are in deception.
Sorry pastor. I’ll pray for Christ Jesus to remove the demonic deception you are under. You are not alone Millions are deceived! For Jesus prayed: John 17:15 KJV - 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Thank you for providing a very acceptable and adequate response to that attack on the pre-tribulation rapture. It is scriptural. When someone wishes to do the pre-tribulation rapture dirty, they always say it began with Darby in the 1800s. I never heard of Darby, but scripture itself is why I have confidence in the pre-tribulation rapture. It's based on what what the Bible says as to why I believe in the pretrib. Rapture. And you provided scriptural support. Thank you.
The word rapture is not written in the Bible ✝️💜✝️💜✝️💜✝️ I’m a bit confused with your words - I’m finally happy to hear and understand the book of Revelation … which now is being read and somewhat explained by others! Thank God!! 💟
The word rapture is in the Bible the Latin Vulgate uses the Latin word Rapturo which came from the Greek word harpazo which means to be snatched away, the KJV translated rapturo to falling away
In a meeting ment at the last trumpet which comes at the end of the tribulation. That’s when you are removed before the wrath of YHWH you s poured out on the earth.
Well our friend, Scott and I completed a series on the book of Revelations with Gary Hamerick (Cornerstone Chapel) at the beginning of this year. In one of his presentations he said I’m going to tell you the three viewpoints Christians have today on when the rapture is taking place. Of course he started with “pre-trib” and moved to mid and post, but prefaced it by saying now if you want to be wrong, you can pick one of the following two.😂 what I didn’t realize was how fired up people got about this timeline and we were sent a plethora of information on Darby and dispensationalism😮 at the end I was left at the same place I was at the beginning thinking, in light of eternity, what difference does it make?? It doesn’t undo my salvation! But the bothersome thing is, what is the agenda of people like John Rich? Anyway, thank you for addressing their conversation. (In only a little over 5 min too.)😊 I’m enjoying the mornings through the Bible TY
The problem is that people who are expecting the pretrib rapture are expecting to be bailed out before the mark of the beast. So when the mark gets here, they will take it not realizing it.
The videos I’ve seen from those trying to disprove the pre tribulation rapture have been very condescending, and those who simply let the scripture speak while “encouraging one another with these words” always come with gentleness and humility as this brother has done. I for one choose to hear the latter. He is correct that I nor anyone else I know came to believe in the pre-trib doctrine because of Darby, but by studying the scriptures.
The mocking and scoffing is a result of the thousands of date setters constantly proclaiming , todays the day, or very very soon. This has been going on since the advent of the delusion of dispensational theology. Newspaper eschatology has caused so many non believers to doubt the bible and mock true Christians.
Prophecy is mainly for Israel mystery is for the church. I want to thank you for the kindness that you show and the knowledge, the wisdom and the love.
The church not being mentioned after chapter four is no confirmation that the church has been raptured. There are several books in the new testament where the word church does not appear. In Romans it only appears once, and not until chapter 16. Also, God is not mentioned even once in the book of Esther, does this mean that God was not present during that time? This kind of exegesis is not practical. For instance, if the so called antichrist is such a prominent figure during the so called seven year tribulation, then it should follow that the word antichrist would appear often throughout Revelation. It does not appear at all.Or how about the great seven year tribulation, once again not once. This is bad exegesis.
Rev 19:6,7,8 says the bride is in heaven preparing for the wedding feast and then return to earth with Christ for the millennial reign, so how and when did the bride get to heaven ? Pre tribulation rapture
@ yes it is if you read John is told past, present and future. This is the idea that has been spread by anti pre tribulation skeptics, same as Darby invented the pre Tribulation idea when it is in a lot of various writings of church fathers, Polycarp, Ireanus, Ephraim and many more
@@heknows5418 If you believe it is chronological and totally literal, then what do you do with Jesus many statements that all these things must shortly come to pass, or chapter 22 saying not to seal the book because the time is near , and no less than 4 times in the same chapter He says that He is coming soon.
@ I believe the rapture and the second coming is two separate events. Rev 19:6,7,8 clearly states that the bride is in heaven preparing for the wedding feast and the return to earth with Christ for the millennial reign. The only way the bride gets to heaven is the pre tribulation rapture. Rev also states that Jesus is the one that opens the seals that start the tribulation and then Father God pours the bowls of wrath out. Now I ask you this question , Why would Jesus pour wrath out on his bride? Wouldn’t that make him a bride abuser, how ridiculously is that Father and Son love the church so much that Jesus suffered the agony and the death of the cross, the Jesus I know will do everything and anything to protect his love. We are not appointed to wrath, Rev says even tho all this happens , the inhabitants of the earth refuse to repent. And remember the Question Jesus asked “ when the the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the earth” when Jesus ask a question it’s not that he doesn’t know answer , it’s do we know. I’m 73 years old have been saved since I was 12, I didn’t always believe in the rapture but when I started it was mid trib for me But for several years of end times study and prayer and understanding, I have reached the conclusion it’s pre tribulation rapture. It’s going be the very worst time on earth since man was created, and yes there will be people saved during the tribulation and most will be put to death .
The tribulation took place in the first century. You are in error in many respects. Teaching you is not possible because you embrace the false teaching of God having 2 distinct people. Wrath is eternal damnation. Rapture happens at the second coming …. Not before. You are in great error.
There is no seven year tribulation in the bible , if there was and many people become tribulation saints as dispensational theology teaches.Then the Lord would be pouring out His wrath on a large portion of His bride. Because there is only one bride, one church, and one body of Christ made up of all who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, no distinction.Unfortunately dispensationalists love to make distinctions between the Jews, the Church , and the tribulation saints.
There will be a "rapture" event. We know this. It's the "when". But, I am not in the "pre-trib" camp. I do think that Christians will go through a portion of these days.
Thank you for explaining in a calm respectful manor your response to John Rich’s attack on the Rapture! He attacked Jack Hibbs, saying he lied! Jack Hibbs doesn’t lie nor would be ever mislead his church! If it ever turned out that he was incorrect, he would correct it instantly! He is not a lier Mr. Rich!
Well said! Jack would correct it immediately! It’s obvious that Rich doesn’t know anything about Jack Hibbs! The traditional churches teach rapture after Tribulation, while evangelical churches tend to believe in the rapture before Tribulation. It’s a matter of interpretation. Belief either way doesn’t make a person a lier! Rich was wrong to call him one! Jack is a wonderful pastor!
The problem with your theory is the book of Revelation was not written to Israelites or Jews. The seven churches were not in Israel. Also, if all of the saints get raptured as you say, then how would they still be present on earth for the entire book of Revelation, as the Bible says? See Rev. 13:10, Rev. 14:12, Matthew 24-25, etc. We’d all like to believe there’s an escape hatch that prevents us from suffering, but the Bible makes it very clear that we will go through trials and the tribulation.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Here's my explanation. It's true that John addresses the seven churches, and the first three chapters are concerned with conditions in those churches, but after chapter three the focus changes. Everything centers on the Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, the Temple. You could say that the book was written to the seven churches, but most of it is not about the seven churches. The tribulation saints are those who are saved after the Rapture. And I agree that Christians are not exempt from suffering, trials, tribulation and persecution. We are, however, exempt from the wrath of God, which the earth will experience as mentioned in Revelation 6:16 and 17.
Exactly where does the Bible say the bride of Christ, the church, will go thru the trib? Give me the top verse
No where, because the bible does not teach a seven year tribulation at the end of the world. The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world is the great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's
Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America..@@lorihanson273
@@lambanei1 There is no seven year tribulation in the bible , if there was and many people become tribulation saints as dispensational theology teaches.Then the Lord would be pouring out His wrath on a large portion of His bride. Because there is only one bride, one church, and one body of Christ made up of all who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, no distinction.Unfortunately dispensationalists love to make distinctions between the Jews, the Church , and the tribulation saints.
Very nice work on this Pastor Tim. You hit on some of the key points of scripture about the "catching away" of the pre-trib saints and its sad and often dissapointing that more believers who argue about this topic don't simply take the time to actually READ what the Bible actually says about it.
FACT : The rapture is going to come one day (1 Thessalonians 4:17-18). No one should be arguing this. The only question is its "Timing". And on that issue you have laid out key bibilical points regarding its timing. Thank you.
Thank you Tim for posting this. There is so much dissention within the "church" about the rapture(harpazo) of the body of Christ. I like you am firm on the rapture of the church coming before the evil one to come is revealed and from scripture it's clear he cannot be revealed until He ( Holy Spirit)who restrains is taken out of the way. I'm thankful for the promise from God that He will come for us. That fills my heart with an urgency to be salt and light and to be ready everyday to declare the gospel to any who will listen before it's too late. We can't do anything except pray for the lost and be available as bond servants to be used by our Lord to fulfill the great commission given to us by Jesus who saved us and empowers us by His Holy Spirit. Maranatha.
We can not twist to our will because we dont want to suffer ❤
God will give us understanding!! ✝️
What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine?
Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
(The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Watch the TH-cam video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.
Watch the TH-cam video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to see the original source of the "Two Peoples of God" doctrine.
If only people would do their homework on just who and what the Darby family was. The Darbys once owned the most notorious castle in Ireland that has had a long history of indescribably ghastly events happening there. The castle is Leap Castle. There's a lot of historical information about this awful place available on you tube and google. It's long had a reputation of being haunted and the current owner of the partially ruined structure also claims it's haunted. The Darbys inherited Leap castle via marriage from the brutal and hideous O'Carrol clan. The O'Carrols had built an oubliette into the castle which was basically a room shaped like a giant bottle with only one opening at the very top. At the bottom of this "bottle" the floor had tall sharpened posts stuck in the ground, and when a person was thrown into to this thing they landed on the spikes. There was no way out of this room, the victim would die in there. The castle was built in the early 1500's and was the site of massacres and torture executions. Mildred Darby lived in the castle back in the 1800's and claimed she'd encountered an elemental demon that had the body of a sheep and yet a human head - and it smelled like a rotten corpse. Mildred Darby was a popular writer who developed the genre of "gothic novels" which presents occult stuff for entertaining reading. John Nelson Darby had spent some time in the castle as well, although he didn't live there full time - but other Darbys did. The Darby family just by their association with and ownership of this awful place discredit themselves. John Darby later founded the now defunct Plymouth Brethren Church/sect which included as members the Crowley family. Look up Aleister Crowley and read about this well known and notorious black magician who once attended Darby's church as a youth. Senior Crowley was very active in Darby's ministry. As for the castle, it's estimated that up to 150 people were murdered at this place with many tortured first before dying. It's beyond me how anyone thinks any good could have come out of the Darby tribe to begin with. And a Darby is the source of all the dispensational theology? Good and bad fruit doesn't come off the same tree. Here's a typical you tube video giving the ghastly history of Leap Castle - watch it and weap! th-cam.com/video/UEAkl6UEr5o/w-d-xo.html
@@Robert-l9s9k Darby didn’t invent the pre tribulation rapture, you seem to have gone to great lengths to research Darby , how about researching Polycarp, Ireanus, Ephraim to name a few of the early church fathers that believed in pre tribulation. Polycarp was bishop of the churches in Turkey that are mentioned in Rev and he was appointed and trained by the Apostle John. As for the all the bad fruit out of the Darby household, remember Saul before he became Paul lot of bad fruit until his conversion
@@heknows5418 You are correct, Darby did not originate The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world. The great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's
Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America.
@@heknows5418 Yes, you are correct, Darby did not originate The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world. The great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's
Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America.
I don’t mind my brothers in Christ having different views on the resurrection of the saints, I just have a problem when people like John Rich disparage pre tribbers so negatively. He got his talking points from others instead of searching it out for himself. How do I know?( you don’t get the “Darby” argument from the Bible). I have brothers in Christ that hold a different view than I and that’s alright but I refuse to chastise them like they are in deception.
You are correct we will not see YHWH’s wrath but the wrath of YHWH and the tribulation are two different things.
Why do you feel like you need to respond?
Sorry pastor. I’ll pray for Christ Jesus to remove the demonic deception you are under. You are not alone Millions are deceived!
For Jesus prayed:
John 17:15 KJV - 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Thank you for providing a very acceptable and adequate response to that attack on the pre-tribulation rapture. It is scriptural. When someone wishes to do the pre-tribulation rapture dirty, they always say it began with Darby in the 1800s. I never heard of Darby, but scripture itself is why I have confidence in the pre-tribulation rapture. It's based on what what the Bible says as to why I believe in the pretrib. Rapture. And you provided scriptural support. Thank you.
The word rapture is not written in the Bible ✝️💜✝️💜✝️💜✝️ I’m a bit confused with your words - I’m finally happy to hear and understand the book of Revelation … which now is being read and somewhat explained by others! Thank God!! 💟
The word rapture is in the Bible the Latin Vulgate uses the Latin word Rapturo which came from the Greek word harpazo which means to be snatched away, the KJV translated rapturo to falling away
In a meeting ment at the last trumpet which comes at the end of the tribulation. That’s when you are removed before the wrath of YHWH you s poured out on the earth.
Well our friend, Scott and I completed a series on the book of Revelations with Gary Hamerick (Cornerstone Chapel) at the beginning of this year. In one of his presentations he said I’m going to tell you the three viewpoints Christians have today on when the rapture is taking place. Of course he started with “pre-trib” and moved to mid and post, but prefaced it by saying now if you want to be wrong, you can pick one of the following two.😂 what I didn’t realize was how fired up people got about this timeline and we were sent a plethora of information on Darby and dispensationalism😮 at the end I was left at the same place I was at the beginning thinking, in light of eternity, what difference does it make?? It doesn’t undo my salvation! But the bothersome thing is, what is the agenda of people like John Rich? Anyway, thank you for addressing their conversation. (In only a little over 5 min too.)😊 I’m enjoying the mornings through the Bible TY
Thanks for your response. No doubt some are going to be surprised on the way up!!
The problem is that people who are expecting the pretrib rapture are expecting to be bailed out before the mark of the beast. So when the mark gets here, they will take it not realizing it.
The videos I’ve seen from those trying to disprove the pre tribulation rapture have been very condescending, and those who simply let the scripture speak while “encouraging one another with these words” always come with gentleness and humility as this brother has done. I for one choose to hear the latter. He is correct that I nor anyone else I know came to believe in the pre-trib doctrine because of Darby, but by studying the scriptures.
Very well said.
The mocking and scoffing is a result of the thousands of date setters constantly proclaiming , todays the day, or very very soon. This has been going on since the advent of the delusion of dispensational theology. Newspaper eschatology has caused so many non believers to doubt the bible and mock true Christians.
Prophecy is mainly for Israel mystery is for the church. I want to thank you for the kindness that you show and the knowledge, the wisdom and the love.
Ineptitudes!
You could say more but you would still be wrong my friend.
The church not being mentioned after chapter four is no confirmation that the church has been raptured. There are several books in the new testament where the word church does not appear. In Romans it only appears once, and not until chapter 16. Also, God is not mentioned even once in the book of Esther, does this mean that God was not present during that time? This kind of exegesis is not practical. For instance, if the so called antichrist is such a prominent figure during the so called seven year tribulation, then it should follow that the word antichrist would appear often throughout Revelation. It does not appear at all.Or how about the great seven year tribulation, once again not once. This is bad exegesis.
Rev 19:6,7,8 says the bride is in heaven preparing for the wedding feast and then return to earth with Christ for the millennial reign, so how and when did the bride get to heaven ? Pre tribulation rapture
@heknows5418 Revelation is not in chronological order. Also, what John witnessed all through the book were mostly symbolic and many were visions.
@ yes it is if you read John is told past, present and future. This is the idea that has been spread by anti pre tribulation skeptics, same as Darby invented the pre Tribulation idea when it is in a lot of various writings of church fathers, Polycarp, Ireanus, Ephraim and many more
@@heknows5418 If you believe it is chronological and totally literal, then what do you do with Jesus many statements that all these things must shortly come to pass, or chapter 22 saying not to seal the book because the time is near , and no less than 4 times in the same chapter He says that He is coming soon.
@ I believe the rapture and the second coming is two separate events. Rev 19:6,7,8 clearly states that the bride is in heaven preparing for the wedding feast and the return to earth with Christ for the millennial reign. The only way the bride gets to heaven is the pre tribulation rapture. Rev also states that Jesus is the one that opens the seals that start the tribulation and then Father God pours the bowls of wrath out. Now I ask you this question , Why would Jesus pour wrath out on his bride? Wouldn’t that make him a bride abuser, how ridiculously is that Father and Son love the church so much that Jesus suffered the agony and the death of the cross, the Jesus I know will do everything and anything to protect his love. We are not appointed to wrath, Rev says even tho all this happens , the inhabitants of the earth refuse to repent. And remember the Question Jesus asked “ when the the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the earth” when Jesus ask a question it’s not that he doesn’t know answer , it’s do we know. I’m 73 years old have been saved since I was 12, I didn’t always believe in the rapture but when I started it was mid trib for me But for several years of end times study and prayer and understanding, I have reached the conclusion it’s pre tribulation rapture. It’s going be the very worst time on earth since man was created, and yes there will be people saved during the tribulation and most will be put to death .
The dead in Christ will rise first and then the living. The pretrib rapture theory has the living rise first.
No the pre tribulation rapture resurrection is not in the Bible
Then explain how the Bride is in heaven in Rev 19 , how and when did she get there?
@@heknows5418
Then explain 1 Peter 1
Tell ya what ,you can stay here and go through the trib the rest of us are going up.
❤
It says the antichrist can’t be revealed by until there is a great falling away.
Luke 21 20
The tribulation took place in the first century. You are in error in many respects. Teaching you is not possible because you embrace the false teaching of God having 2 distinct people. Wrath is eternal damnation. Rapture happens at the second coming …. Not before. You are in great error.
Amen
There is no seven year tribulation in the bible , if there was and many people become tribulation saints as dispensational theology teaches.Then the Lord would be pouring out His wrath on a large portion of His bride. Because there is only one bride, one church, and one body of Christ made up of all who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, no distinction.Unfortunately dispensationalists love to make distinctions between the Jews, the Church , and the tribulation saints.