Jeremiah 8:8 on bible: “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."
Messianic Jew: i admire shabir and his respect for James. when he was shown to be wrong, 1:33:50 he admitted that he was willing to change his mind and give up the point on this point. although whenever Shabir made a very valid and respectable question james just dances around the question, and takes a much more hostal mannerism. not to say that he was BEING hostel its just that his mannerism was not in Love. and Shabir's was. and that is sad. James you Should win Shabir just by your Love.
The Topic for this Debate is '' Is the bible inspire word of God '' and James white is bringing up the history of Qur'an which is inconsistant and irralevant topic.
You yourself is a humble person. I just want to say how I highly admire your positive manner in a sensitive issue like this video. I am a Muslim and eventhough we are different but I respect you sincerely.
James white must not really know what a debate is.Shabir has been in many debate therefore he knows how to stick to a topic.If the topic was is the Qur'an the sole word of God or reliable which Shabir has debated then we can talk about the Qur'an but this is about the bible not the Qur'an.Second, the bible has an unknown author, the Qur'an for made clear to avoid the same mistake which the bible did, which is why we have one Qur'an today versus the bible you have different inconsistency.
Now I'm a Christian believer and I'm extremely impressed with Shabir Ally James White is no match for him in this debate. Ally knows the Bible better than the Christian defender himself!
Good debate. I appreciate both Shabir Ally and James White for giving a cordial and knowledgeable debate unlike some debates which merely ends up in throwing dirt at each other. I also request users posting comments here to make more cordial conversion as there had been in the debate. Just don't end up in finger pointing at each other
i have a Q please, how can there be first century documents from the Quran, if Muhammad received the revelation direct from the angle in the six century?? or am i misunderstanding thanks.
@candiceevans1 the quran is a book that is primarily committed to memory, even now if ALL the copies of the quran was burned i could within a few hours have at least 200 people in my small town recite the quran from start to finish and give you an accurate rendition of the quran. If the quran had been tampered with at any stage it would stick out like a sore thumb and even so, people didnt go off the written record, they MEMORISED the quran so that it is impossible to lose or burn it
Why are we comparing the NT to the Qur'an, which is the actual inspiration from the Lord Most High, through one and only ONE source...? While the NT is just as the HADITH are, being a book containing an accounts from various sources about the life and saying of Prophets...! They were both compiled more or less 300 years after each MESSENGER(pbthem)
james white goes off the topic far too much, explains textual variant that one writer of the NT was in a bit of a hurry or didnt have enough paper. james white uses far too much grease to smooth out his arguments
@Vasilis719 (cont'd) An example, some Arabs used to have a dialect which originated from Yemen, where they would add "an" at the end of a noun - e.g. "Taliban" is the same as the Arabic word "Talib" which means "Student". The Quraishi dialect is the most popular dialect that uses the arabic words without altering their sound, and is today the dialect used among Arabs who speak Proper Arabic. So the problem was with the arabic language not with Quran.
from the first words Shabir was very direct without any mistake opening the case .. the other should represent the same points but instead he examen the Islamic faith instead of responding to the biblical contradiction from a biblical point of view
@jonjon1457 I have watched many Christian Muslim debates and of them all, my favorite Muslim debater (I am not Muslim) is Shabir Ally. He is such a gentlemen and a respectable person. He does not get angry when he is challenged on what he believes nor does he become belligerent at his opponent. I do not accept his assertion that Islam is the true path to God. I see Islam as a replacement theology.
@Vasilis719 Also in your bible: "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, I will make him a great nation. (Genesis 17:20) As for 1John 4:1-3 Jesus was showing you the criteria of testing a true prophet from a false one. i.e. (1) there could be another prophet (2)The criteria clearly applies to Muhammad(PBUH) bec he acknowledges that Jesus(PBUH) has come in the flesh.
The topic was, Is the bible the Inspired word of God? James White goes completely out of topic. Just trying to defend the bible by attacking the koran will never make it the word of God LoL.....
If we use the same criteria, that is used in the compilation of the Quran or the authentic Hadiths, all the bible would be thrown as fabrication. What criteria do you use to include the book of Hebrew?
I'm a christian and regardless of the behavior of the people on this site, I would like say that i was very happy to see the professional behavior displayed by both James White and Shabbir Ally. Very few times have I seen a debate where both opponents seem to enjoy the company of each other. Hope all debates would be like that.
It would be great if you allow yourself to acknowledge that the root cause of this debate is a verse from the Qur'an which particularly calls Muslims to engage with Christians and Jews in the best and most beautiful ways :-) There is no religious text on the face of earth which mentions other faith in it.except the Qur'an Thanks
A final point I would raise is that the central truth of the original prophets was NOT submission anywhere or that there is a unitary god (for example, both baal & molech were claimed as [names] for god). The central truth is that there is One God and only One True & Living God. It is this God we are commanded to worship. Also, Muhamm. claims that he received his revelations from an angelic being. Can any examples be offered of earlier prophets who received written revelations from angels
Shabir Ally was brilliant! He made James White look like a fool when he pointed out that White did NOT actually defend the statement that NT is inspired by God. Also, Shabir Ally's questions and particularly the sequence of them was amazing! Ally made James White himself concede that the "entire" New Testament "as we have today" is NOT inspired by God. Overall it was a great debate which Shabir Ally won without a doubt.
@Ashraff1971 Ok then let me give you a few examples about changes in the Quran: The verse of suckling was in the Quran when Muammad lived according to Aisha (Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3421), where is it now? The verse of Stoning was in th Quran when Muhammad lived according to Umar (Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816) where is it now? Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 468 says your Quran used to read "by the creature" but now it reads " by the creator", a BIG difference. Now what?
I wonder what would happen if Mr.James White lost his speech TEXT? (isn't he that TH-cam preacher guy btw? i wonder how long it took him to memorize a speech text before he post a video on TH-cam) peace.
White did not defend the Bible at all in this debate. Trinitarian Christianity is not a Monotheistic religion by its very definition. The fact White agrees that verses have been added to the Bible proves it fallability. The Bible contains revelation but also mans falsehood. Yet even the revelation it contains is not directly from Jesus as he was not involved in its creation (the Bible). The Quran was not inspired, it was revealed.
Why are they comparing the NT to Qur'an which is the inspired word of the All-Mighty Creator...! The NT is an account of HERE-SAYS of people through out a period of time about the saying and actions of Jesus(pbh)... and this is similar to the Hadith. Incidentally they were both collected almost the same length of time after the disappearance of the respective Prophets.
@Vasilis719 (Cont'd) look at Psalm 137:8-9 where there's a praise for dashing little children against the rocks as a form of revenge: "O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us. O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!" The second part of your reply is also interesting...can u pls further elaborate on the holy land not being given to a non resisting wicked people?
Through the prophet Daniel we receive a timeline of when Messiah would appear: (Daniel 9:24-26) "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and the Holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy. Know and understand this; from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One (Messiah), the Ruler comes, there will be Seven sevens
If Jesus is God like some of the people in this video claim, then when Jesus died on the cross and was in the grave for 3 days (like the Gospels claim) then that must have meant that God was dead for 3 days. Think about the blasphemy with this, yet these people have no idea what they are thinking. God has no co occupants in his throne, that would equate to Polytheism!!
i dont get why u say Shabir doesnt use the same standards when talking about Quran? he just said its not the debate topic,if debate's topic was "is Quran word of god" then he would tell wt is his proof to that and reply on ppl doubts about Quran,on the other hand all wt james did is attacking Quran ,when he had to prove bible is word of god and reply to shabir calims that its not!! Im a muslim but im trying to be neutral here,James was rly off the topic most of the time.
@Ashraff1971 actually if i took the quran when it was recitied by muhammad and compare it to now there is a difference. And the difference is the fact that 13 years after muhammad died, during the reign of the caliph Uthman, their were varying distortions of the quran, and Uthman gathered them up, had them all burned and then issue the "zayd codex"(after muhammad's secretary) as the standard version, without even knowing if zayds copy is the right one.
NT is equal to HADITH not Qur'an, the fact that they are both collections of the sayings and life of individuals around 300 year after. Jesus (pbh) has never asked his followers to write down anything, while Muhammad(pbh) did hence Qur'an. It has ONE SINGLE SOURCE and wholesome.
Mr. White says Muslim scholars lack consistency. If you see and analyze this debate in detail you'll realize that Mr White is a lot more inconsistent in his arguments than Shabir. And about the verse in the bible in which Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be on to him) was addressed as Lord, is vague. Lord doesn't necessarily refer to God. There is no unambiguous statement in the complete bible where Jesus Christ tells his people that he is God or to Worship him.
What a liar.. He said Uthman(r) killed ibn masood(r).. wat a liar... a new allegation from a christian... Every single christian i ever he has something new to say Abt Quran which No muslim n as well as scholars of the Quran ever heard... I have been listening so many of them..Do thy sit n plan this things to lie about Quran.But u see.. Allah said" they plan n plot Allah too plans n Allah is the Best of planners". Islam beacame the fastest growing Religion in the world and still is HAmdolillah
there are so many place jesus equates himself with god. In john chp 10 he says "i and the father are one". In matthew chp 28 he states "i have been given all authority on heaven and on earth". In luke chp 6 he states "the son of man has been given authority on earth to forgive sins". Even in the old testament in the book of Isaiah it states in chp 9 it states "behold, a child in born, and he will be called wonderful cousellor, everlasting god, prince of peace". thats proof enough
Honestly White had no points,he insisted that Jesus is God or trinity issue in each of his statement,instead of sticking to the point,he is not a great speaker,he explains as if he is reading the news paper,while his opponent use his own brain and mentioned the chapters Shabir is fantastic,but I dont like this type of discussion too many talks few proof
white is very correct. If you start from a presupposition that something is incorrect your inevitably gonna find errors from your own perspective. And it is also true that the quran as it is written now it the the uthmanian version of it. The fact is that there were many varying interpretations of it after muhammad died because although it was written in recitations, it was not actually compiled into a book
@Nazam44 where is the mistake there? you have to put in context (muslims don't know what that is) James White is sharing his knowledge about Chrisitanity, of course as you did if believe the kuran is inerrant word of God then you'll say that James White made a mistake, in the same stand Christians will say Shabbir Ally is wrong for even consider the kuran as inerrant so put it in CONTEXT and you'll learn
'The Bible is inspired by God therefore it is the truth". If God is also the inspiration for the Universe and all that it entails then God would also be responsible for the inspiration for the doctrine of every other religion(including satanism). Which is the 'true' one that we should follow? Should we pretend to know the will of God? I try to never pretend to know Truth. I don't follow doctrines. I read and appreciate them for what they are. Beautiful works of literature.
Yes, that's what they made of it in Niceae, as demanded by the Roman emperor to fit his political needs: state control through mind control. The current bible has been re-edited and massaged countless times, first by Paul that has never witnessed Jesus. The oldest and unaltered gospel of Thomas recently found back in Egypt) doesn't mention a trinity and Jezus being a (demi)god. Thomas told about the original gnostic teachings of Jesus as a guru, as he never met Paul and his editing.
@Vasilis719 Now let's see the bible: "There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind." 2 Samuel 22:9-11 Is the bible saying here that God was like a dragon that is riding baby girl angels?!
Interesting debate. It does not change the fact that the NT is rooted in the fact that salvation is based and concluded in worshiping Jesus as God, Saviour and Creator. Since when did worship shift from God to Jesus? It only seems valid if Jesus is God the Father. Is he? Did he say he was?
wow Nakdimon316 thnks he's smart...apparently he doesnt do his homework very well..ppl there is a difference between a verse and a hadith...those claimed "verses" were corrected by the prophet they were meant as hadiths not qura'nic verses
MuhammadWorseThanHitler, I don't know what was shameful about my performance; after all, I wasn't one of the participants in the debate. I don't think Ally did as well as he could have given how obviously intelligent he is; he was simply hampered by the restrictions Islam imposes on him, making it impossible to mount a consistent response that doesn't saw off the branch he is sitting on. And that is a shame; what a waste of a brain.
@Vasilis719 Quran 29:27 "And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation..." The verse doesn't say that all prophets are from Isaac and Jacob. The verse simply says that prophets were from Ibraham's offsprings. You wrote: "NO mention of Jesus claiming a "final" prophet after him" 1John 4:1-3 "...This is how you can recognize the Spirit(prophet) of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..."
yes, some parts of Bible are inspired word of God. But some parts are obviously not due to fabrication or mistake. As a result, in Bible you can see different types of incest passages without condemnation; and violent, erroneous, contradictory verses. Even they made 3 in 1 cocktail God. Once they say God is eternal, again they say God died on cross. (???) Nutshell: If you believe in a Book, where the concept of God is not clear, then you are pretending yourself.
@Vasilis719 Ismael is shown in other places in Quran to be a prophet of God. For e.g. Sura 6:86-89: " And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way......These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood........"
@pantherlake2002 - I am just saying that I don' think that the main teachings of the original scriptures anywhere is that one must 'submit' to God. Jesus accepted the OT (and NEVER said that the Hebrew scriptures came from an angel or that His own words came from an angel ) but Islams claims that both were 'corrupted'- but how can that be if all the scriptures teach God is one. Again, if allah did not protect truth of the originals how can someone be 100% sure that the truth of the Qu'ran
Really so you don't see how shabir ally uses scholars and arguments that go against his own position, Shabir uses scholars who are against both the Bible and the Quran but he only uses them for the Bible how do you not see that
Why can you not leave comments on James Whites videos on youtube, its so frustrating, he likes to give his spiel on camera but does not allow a response or discussion on what he has said, maybe he likes it that way.
muhammad nor muslims say the people of the books scriptures they have today are the 100% word of god but partially, and those bits which agree with the koran is to be only accepted anything else is considered to be a fabrication by writers not prophets. the koran also says when these scriptures came from heaven untouched they were 100% gods word but when the false pen wrote what it felt then that word was no longer holy and history tells us the bible has been corruped on a enormous degree.
@Vasilis719 You wrote in "Part 4" a justification for NUMBERS 31:17-18 & verses 35&40 as well as DEUTERONOMY 20:16. First of all let me tell u that u're not practicing wut u're preaching..u're not being respectful and u're showing dishonesty in explaining the scripture. If these 32000 virgins were only spared bec they committed no sin then why were the boys not spared? why were animals not spared?
@SuperJoseph1987 Do you believe that God can be beaten up by the Romans (considering he created them) and then be crucified? Do you believe God was killed ont he cross? If so perhaps your idea/definition of God needs to be redefined.....
@Vasilis719 (Cont'd) Polygamy: Solomon the wise had a thousand wives and concubines (a) "And he (Solomon) had seven hundred wives, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart (towards other gods). "KINGS 1 1:3 (b) Abraham had more than one wife; and so had Israel (Jacob) and David the king. There is not a single word of reproach in the "Book of God" the Holy Bible against polygamous marriages.
@Nazam44 - Do you think so ?!? I don't think that I do that. It is clear that islam rejects many teachings in the Bible; that is not in dispute here. The question (AGAIN) is whether muslims have a valid basis for accepting the koran as valid and for rejecting the enitire truth of the Bible. This is the flaw of your arguments: it is contradictory to say you will accept what you like and reject what you did not like/understand. Jesus said he is THE way and THE truth. Any other way is a dececption
@Romans9Apologetics Yes, but the word doesn't have one meaning even if it was used for YHVH. What I'm interested is, a non-ambiguous verse in which Prophet Jesus (Peace and blessings of Allah swt be on to him) said he is God!
@laserwolf130, The truth is in the prophecies. Qur'an has no prophecies, but The Bible does- from the Beginning (Genesis) to the end (Revelation). I've sent this to several Muslims and posted them as mush as I could on their sites before my comments stop appearing , and NONE has debunked this video: "Jesus Christ is Lord - Spirit of Prophecy" watch?v=Ezy0cfi4ub8 Plus, there are the historical documents outside the Bible but that would be another video.
and the Bible says that the sun is created in the FOURTH day. you don't need the Qur'an to see the falsehood. what Christians need to use is not intelligence, what you need is HONESTY. in the day of judgement, i wonder what answer will Christians give when God ask "why do you take this Bible which clearly contains falsehoods as guidance and say that it is MY words?"
James , the fact is that you are way too clueless about the Quran , I mean you dont know even the basics. On the other hand Shabir Ally not only knows alot about Quran but knows alot more about bible that you do. Just dont come up with written , nonacademic type of commoners debate materials. Not only that, you are trying to cool things a little too much. You dont hide any thing .. you just lie openly. Oh by the way you came here for debate , not for mediation. You totally unimpressed me.
@SoldierOfChrist110 are you alright mate? The manuscripts what we have were written MUCH after Jesus death. A lot of difference. I think you need to watch a debate of Shabir Ally vs Dr. Buzzard. One worthy Christian whom i wanna listen. The gospel that Jesus preached.
you are right, James white makes a mistake that means he makes a mistake. but there is other facts to prove that what he think the bible is can't be true.
hahaha instead of refuting shabir's points, james went on to argue against islam! insead of defending his position, he attacks Quran. hahaha as if he is afraid to talk about the subject.
@Vasilis719 (Cont'd) U couldn't answer how David is described as someone who committed adultery SAMUEL 11:4 and betrayed and murdered Uriah 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25 and then danced naked. Is that how ur bible describs the prophets(or"saints") of God?! But why am i surprised when u even insult God almighty in ur book?! - A hissing God- ISAIAH 5:26, 7: 18, ZECHARIA 10:8 - A "roaring" God - ISAIAH 42:13, JEREMIAH 25:30 - A "barber" God - ISAIAH 7:20 (Cont'd)
@Vasilis719 (cont'd) you really don't undertsand anything about islam or about arabic language!! Arabic language in general had no vowels at that time. Back in the Middle East 1400 years ago, the Quraishi dialect was not the only one used among Arabs. There existed 6 other dialects along with it but it was the most popular and most accurate dialect. The Arabic dialects had problems with each others, and that's why standardizing the Noble Quran with its original Quraishi dialect was essential
@Vasilis719 As for ur bible, it is corrupted according to Moses. Deuteronomy 31:29"For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made." Jeremiah 8:8 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
"It is so obvious that over history,people have changed the bible, edited it, revised it to suit themselves." hi my freind, give me an example pls. thanks
@midleground Muslims do not say that u've to be muslim(in the sense of praying 5 times a day, fasting ramadan, etc.) to go to heaven. rather you'd have to be a muslim in the sense of submission to God and making no partners with him in ordr to go to heaven. I guess it's fair that God will only allow u to enter his heaven if u believe in Him. If you see the diff you'd see that christianity and Judaism are named after persons but islam is not named Muhammadiasm. Islam means submission to God.
Subhan Allah. 1:15:05 This is such a pathetic statement that mark was in rush and didn't have enough time to put together all information...you are kidding man. The Book called Aqeeda tul Wastia written by Imam Ibn Taimiah raheem ullah alayehe about 700 years ago just between Asr and Salat ul Isha meaning in about 4 hours approximately and this book has been explained further by no. of scholars came after him and no mistake and beautiful summarized book on Aqeedah.
am I, .?!? sorry, my friend, but I do no such thing. The questions I have put forth here are based completely on what muslims I have spoken with have told me are the truth & requirements of Islam, my own faith (christianity) and the original scriptures. I have been told that (one of ) the main teachings of Islam & the Bible is 'submission' - ok then, where does it, in fact, assert or teach that ? We are told an angel from the BIble gave the Koran to Muhammad - what's the proof ?
Alsamiri did exist at the time of Moses peace upon him he was the man that made the ignorant Jews think that the idol is their God and the God of Moses peace upon him.
@Vasilis719 The word of God should always have a purpose. wut's the puprose or biblical lesson learned from knowing these erotic details? What's the biblical lesson from learning that Lot was drunk and slept with his daughters yet God saved them and there was no punishment? (GENESIS 19:33-35 ) What's the lesson from knowing that Noah , a man trusted by God to build a huge ship and save the believers, was a drunkard?! Can God trust a drunkard with that kind of responsibility?!
NT was decided until 393 C.E. When the Orthodox and Catholic churches decided the canon. Was NO NEW TESTAMENT UNTIL THE 4th CENTURY. James White is flogging himself on the back when he speaks. The gospels and other letters quote other works. Does that mean something like the book of Enoch is "inspired"?
i agree, they were both very respectful towards each other.
Jeremiah 8:8 on bible: “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."
I think that Mr Ali has got more information about Christianity than Christians themselves.
Shabir Ally did Awesome May God Reward him !
Messianic Jew: i admire shabir and his respect for James. when he was shown to be wrong, 1:33:50 he admitted that he was willing to change his mind and give up the point on this point. although whenever Shabir made a very valid and respectable question james just dances around the question, and takes a much more hostal mannerism. not to say that he was BEING hostel its just that his mannerism was not in Love. and Shabir's was. and that is sad. James you Should win Shabir just by your Love.
The Topic for this Debate is '' Is the bible inspire word of God '' and James white is bringing up the history of Qur'an which is inconsistant and irralevant topic.
shabir ali is so funny and full of knowledge may allah bless him
shabbir is a fantastic speaker...
You yourself is a humble person. I just want to say how I highly admire your positive manner in a sensitive issue like this video.
I am a Muslim and eventhough we are different but I respect you sincerely.
James white must not really know what a debate is.Shabir has been in many debate therefore he knows how to stick to a topic.If the topic was is the Qur'an the sole word of God or reliable which Shabir has debated then we can talk about the Qur'an but this is about the bible not the Qur'an.Second, the bible has an unknown author, the Qur'an for made clear to avoid the same mistake which the bible did, which is why we have one Qur'an today versus the bible you have different inconsistency.
Now I'm a Christian believer and I'm extremely impressed with Shabir Ally James White is no match for him in this debate. Ally knows the Bible better than the Christian defender himself!
WOOOO I think mr JW is out of topic....
is it just me or is shabir ally just amazing at what he does he is on FIRE......loved it when he came to leeds
Good debate. I appreciate both Shabir Ally and James White for giving a cordial and knowledgeable debate unlike some debates which merely ends up in throwing dirt at each other.
I also request users posting comments here to make more cordial conversion as there had been in the debate. Just don't end up in finger pointing at each other
its good 2 see a muslim and a christain having a honest discusstion at the end of the dabate. refreshing
i have a Q please, how can there be first century documents from the Quran, if Muhammad received the revelation direct from the angle in the six century?? or am i misunderstanding thanks.
@candiceevans1 the quran is a book that is primarily committed to memory, even now if ALL the copies of the quran was burned i could within a few hours have at least 200 people in my small town recite the quran from start to finish and give you an accurate rendition of the quran. If the quran had been tampered with at any stage it would stick out like a sore thumb and even so, people didnt go off the written record, they MEMORISED the quran so that it is impossible to lose or burn it
Poor Shabir; what a shame.
I've listened to many of these and this by far the best. Both men are incredibly intelligent
praise god for james white. He presents the facts as they are. Ally twists them to paint a pretty but false picture
why does christians have to loose every single debate ?
I am not Muslim, and I think James White is growing goofy and uptight.This shows especially in his 5th debate with Shabir Ally.
Why are we comparing the NT to the Qur'an, which is the actual inspiration from the Lord Most High, through one and only ONE source...?
While the NT is just as the HADITH are, being a book containing an accounts from various sources about the life and saying of Prophets...!
They were both compiled more or less 300 years after each MESSENGER(pbthem)
SHABIR ALLY !
These kinds of debates were great for understanding. Unfortunately the times have changed
james white goes off the topic far too much, explains textual variant that one writer of the NT was in a bit of a hurry or didnt have enough paper. james white uses far too much grease to smooth out his arguments
@Vasilis719
(cont'd) An example, some Arabs used to have a dialect which originated from Yemen, where they would add "an" at the end of a noun - e.g. "Taliban" is the same as the Arabic word "Talib" which means "Student". The Quraishi dialect is the most popular dialect that uses the arabic words without altering their sound, and is today the dialect used among Arabs who speak Proper Arabic. So the problem was with the arabic language not with Quran.
from the first words Shabir was very direct without any mistake opening the case .. the other should represent the same points but instead he examen the Islamic faith instead of responding to the biblical contradiction from a biblical point of view
@jonjon1457 I have watched many Christian Muslim debates and of them all, my favorite Muslim debater (I am not Muslim) is Shabir Ally. He is such a gentlemen and a respectable person. He does not get angry when he is challenged on what he believes nor does he become belligerent at his opponent. I do not accept his assertion that Islam is the true path to God. I see Islam as a replacement theology.
@Vasilis719
Also in your bible: "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, I will make him a great nation. (Genesis 17:20)
As for 1John 4:1-3 Jesus was showing you the criteria of testing a true prophet from a false one. i.e. (1) there could be another prophet (2)The criteria clearly applies to Muhammad(PBUH) bec he acknowledges that Jesus(PBUH) has come in the flesh.
The topic was, Is the bible the Inspired word of God? James White goes completely out of topic. Just trying to defend the bible by attacking the koran will never make it the word of God LoL.....
If we use the same criteria, that is used in the compilation of the Quran or the authentic Hadiths, all the bible would be thrown as fabrication. What criteria do you use to include the book of Hebrew?
I'm a christian and regardless of the behavior of the people on this site, I would like say that i was very happy to see the professional behavior displayed by both James White and Shabbir Ally. Very few times have I seen a debate where both opponents seem to enjoy the company of each other. Hope all debates would be like that.
It would be great if you allow yourself to acknowledge that the root cause of this debate is a verse from the Qur'an which particularly calls Muslims to engage with Christians and Jews in the best and most beautiful ways :-)
There is no religious text on the face of earth which mentions other faith in it.except the Qur'an
Thanks
@Nazam44 - also this is no strawman point- I am merely seeking a honest, consistent response. thanks
A final point I would raise is that the central truth of the original prophets was NOT submission anywhere or that there is a unitary god (for example, both baal & molech were claimed as [names] for god). The central truth is that there is One God and only One True & Living God. It is this God we are commanded to worship. Also, Muhamm. claims that he received his revelations from an angelic being. Can any examples be offered of earlier prophets who received written revelations from angels
Shabir Ally was brilliant! He made James White look like a fool when he pointed out that White did NOT actually defend the statement that NT is inspired by God.
Also, Shabir Ally's questions and particularly the sequence of them was amazing! Ally made James White himself concede that the "entire" New Testament "as we have today" is NOT inspired by God.
Overall it was a great debate which Shabir Ally won without a doubt.
@Ashraff1971 Ok then let me give you a few examples about changes in the Quran: The verse of suckling was in the Quran when Muammad lived according to Aisha (Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3421), where is it now? The verse of Stoning was in th Quran when Muhammad lived according to Umar (Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816) where is it now? Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 468 says your Quran used to read "by the creature" but now it reads " by the creator", a BIG difference. Now what?
I wonder what would happen if Mr.James White lost his speech TEXT? (isn't he that TH-cam preacher guy btw? i wonder how long it took him to memorize a speech text before he post a video on TH-cam)
peace.
Is the John of "The Gospel of John" and "John the Baptist" same?
White did not defend the Bible at all in this debate.
Trinitarian Christianity is not a Monotheistic religion by its very definition.
The fact White agrees that verses have been added to the Bible proves it fallability.
The Bible contains revelation but also mans falsehood. Yet even the revelation it contains is not directly from Jesus as he was not involved in its creation (the Bible).
The Quran was not inspired, it was revealed.
Why are they comparing the NT to Qur'an which is the inspired word of the All-Mighty Creator...!
The NT is an account of HERE-SAYS of people through out a period of time about the saying and actions of Jesus(pbh)... and this is similar to the Hadith.
Incidentally they were both collected almost the same length of time after the disappearance of the respective Prophets.
@Vasilis719
(Cont'd) look at Psalm 137:8-9 where there's a praise for dashing little children against the rocks as a form of revenge:
"O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us. O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!"
The second part of your reply is also interesting...can u pls further elaborate on the holy land not being given to a non resisting wicked people?
Through the prophet Daniel we receive a timeline of when Messiah would appear:
(Daniel 9:24-26) "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and the Holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy. Know and understand this; from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One (Messiah), the Ruler comes, there will be Seven sevens
If Jesus is God like some of the people in this video claim, then when Jesus
died on the cross and was in the
grave for 3 days (like the Gospels claim) then that must have meant that God was dead for 3 days. Think about the blasphemy with this, yet these people have no idea what they are thinking. God has no co occupants in his throne, that would equate to Polytheism!!
i dont get why u say Shabir doesnt use the same standards when talking about Quran? he just said its not the debate topic,if debate's topic was "is Quran word of god" then he would tell wt is his proof to that and reply on ppl doubts about Quran,on the other hand all wt james did is attacking Quran ,when he had to prove bible is word of god and reply to shabir calims that its not!! Im a muslim but im trying to be neutral here,James was rly off the topic most of the time.
@Ashraff1971 actually if i took the quran when it was recitied by muhammad and compare it to now there is a difference. And the difference is the fact that 13 years after muhammad died, during the reign of the caliph Uthman, their were varying distortions of the quran, and Uthman gathered them up, had them all burned and then issue the "zayd codex"(after muhammad's secretary) as the standard version, without even knowing if zayds copy is the right one.
NT is equal to HADITH not Qur'an, the fact that they are both collections of the sayings and life of individuals around 300 year after.
Jesus (pbh) has never asked his followers to write down anything, while Muhammad(pbh) did hence Qur'an. It has ONE SINGLE SOURCE and wholesome.
what a lovely debate
i now hate the word consistency :(
Mr. White says Muslim scholars lack consistency. If you see and analyze this debate in detail you'll realize that Mr White is a lot more inconsistent in his arguments than Shabir. And about the verse in the bible in which Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be on to him) was addressed as Lord, is vague. Lord doesn't necessarily refer to God. There is no unambiguous statement in the complete bible where Jesus Christ tells his people that he is God or to Worship him.
What a liar.. He said Uthman(r) killed ibn masood(r).. wat a liar... a new allegation from a christian... Every single christian i ever he has something new to say Abt Quran which No muslim n as well as scholars of the Quran ever heard... I have been listening so many of them..Do thy sit n plan this things to lie about Quran.But u see.. Allah said" they plan n plot Allah too plans n Allah is the Best of planners". Islam beacame the fastest growing Religion in the world and still is HAmdolillah
there are so many place jesus equates himself with god. In john chp 10 he says "i and the father are one". In matthew chp 28 he states "i have been given all authority on heaven and on earth". In luke chp 6 he states "the son of man has been given authority on earth to forgive sins". Even in the old testament in the book of Isaiah it states in chp 9 it states "behold, a child in born, and he will be called wonderful cousellor, everlasting god, prince of peace". thats proof enough
Honestly White had no points,he insisted that Jesus is God or trinity issue in each of his statement,instead of sticking to the point,he is not a great speaker,he explains as if he is reading the news paper,while his opponent use his own brain and mentioned the chapters Shabir is fantastic,but I dont like this type of discussion too many talks few proof
white is very correct. If you start from a presupposition that something is incorrect your inevitably gonna find errors from your own perspective. And it is also true that the quran as it is written now it the the uthmanian version of it. The fact is that there were many varying interpretations of it after muhammad died because although it was written in recitations, it was not actually compiled into a book
Who won?
@Nazam44 where is the mistake there? you have to put in context (muslims don't know what that is) James White is sharing his knowledge about Chrisitanity, of course as you did if believe the kuran is inerrant word of God then you'll say that James White made a mistake, in the same stand Christians will say Shabbir Ally is wrong for even consider the kuran as inerrant so put it in CONTEXT and you'll learn
Lakers against Phenix funny
'The Bible is inspired by God therefore it is the truth". If God is also the inspiration for the Universe and all that it entails then God would also be responsible for the inspiration for the doctrine of every other religion(including satanism). Which is the 'true' one that we should follow? Should we pretend to know the will of God? I try to never pretend to know Truth.
I don't follow doctrines. I read and appreciate them for what they are. Beautiful works of literature.
Yes, that's what they made of it in Niceae, as demanded by the Roman emperor to fit his political needs: state control through mind control. The current bible has been re-edited and massaged countless times, first by Paul that has never witnessed Jesus.
The oldest and unaltered gospel of Thomas recently found back in Egypt) doesn't mention a trinity and Jezus being a (demi)god. Thomas told about the original gnostic teachings of Jesus as a guru, as he never met Paul and his editing.
@Vasilis719
Now let's see the bible:
"There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind." 2 Samuel 22:9-11
Is the bible saying here that God was like a dragon that is riding baby girl angels?!
Interesting debate. It does not change the fact that the NT is rooted in the fact that salvation is based and concluded in worshiping Jesus as God, Saviour and Creator. Since when did worship shift from God to Jesus? It only seems valid if Jesus is God the Father.
Is he? Did he say he was?
wow Nakdimon316 thnks he's smart...apparently he doesnt do his homework very well..ppl there is a difference between a verse and a hadith...those claimed "verses" were corrected by the prophet they were meant as hadiths not qura'nic verses
MuhammadWorseThanHitler,
I don't know what was shameful about my performance; after all, I wasn't one of the participants in the debate.
I don't think Ally did as well as he could have given how obviously intelligent he is; he was simply hampered by the restrictions Islam imposes on him, making it impossible to mount a consistent response that doesn't saw off the branch he is sitting on. And that is a shame; what a waste of a brain.
@Vasilis719
Quran 29:27 "And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation..."
The verse doesn't say that all prophets are from Isaac and Jacob. The verse simply says that prophets were from Ibraham's offsprings.
You wrote: "NO mention of Jesus claiming a "final" prophet after him"
1John 4:1-3 "...This is how you can recognize the Spirit(prophet) of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..."
yes, some parts of Bible are inspired word of God. But some parts are obviously not due to fabrication or mistake. As a result, in Bible you can see different types of incest passages without condemnation; and violent, erroneous, contradictory verses. Even they made 3 in 1 cocktail God. Once they say God is eternal, again they say God died on cross. (???)
Nutshell: If you believe in a Book, where the concept of God is not clear, then you are pretending yourself.
shaxarel
what about the verses in chapter 20:85-88,95
did not the Jews worship an idol .
First of all Othman is not the same as Uthman also do your research on that subject ;) thanks.
@Vasilis719
Ismael is shown in other places in Quran to be a prophet of God.
For e.g. Sura 6:86-89: " And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way......These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood........"
@pantherlake2002 - I am just saying that I don' think that the main teachings of the original scriptures anywhere is that one must 'submit' to God. Jesus accepted the OT (and NEVER said that the Hebrew scriptures came from an angel or that His own words came from an angel ) but Islams claims that both were 'corrupted'- but how can that be if all the scriptures teach God is one. Again, if allah did not protect truth of the originals how can someone be 100% sure that the truth of the Qu'ran
Really so you don't see how shabir ally uses scholars and arguments that go against his own position, Shabir uses scholars who are against both the Bible and the Quran but he only uses them for the Bible how do you not see that
@gespb32 Do you mean Uthmans or Othamans?
Why can you not leave comments on James Whites videos on youtube, its so frustrating, he likes to give his spiel on camera but does not allow a response or discussion on what he has said, maybe he likes it that way.
Please refer to unveiling-christianity(dot)org for more refutations on Christianity.
"he assumes that the Bible is inerrant"
As every muslim assumes the Koran is. What's you're point?
muhammad nor muslims say the people of the books scriptures they have today are the 100% word of god but partially, and those bits which agree with the koran is to be only accepted anything else is considered to be a fabrication by writers not prophets. the koran also says when these scriptures came from heaven untouched they were 100% gods word but when the false pen wrote what it felt then that word was no longer holy and history tells us the bible has been corruped on a enormous degree.
@Vasilis719
You wrote in "Part 4" a justification for NUMBERS 31:17-18 & verses 35&40 as well as DEUTERONOMY 20:16. First of all let me tell u that u're not practicing wut u're preaching..u're not being respectful and u're showing dishonesty in explaining the scripture. If these 32000 virgins were only spared bec they committed no sin then why were the boys not spared? why were animals not spared?
@SuperJoseph1987 Do you believe that God can be beaten up by the Romans (considering he created them) and then be crucified? Do you believe God was killed ont he cross? If so perhaps your idea/definition of God needs to be redefined.....
@Vasilis719
(Cont'd)
Polygamy: Solomon the wise had a thousand wives and concubines (a) "And he (Solomon) had seven hundred wives, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart (towards other gods). "KINGS 1 1:3 (b) Abraham had more than one wife; and so had Israel (Jacob) and David the king. There is not a single word of reproach in the "Book of God" the Holy Bible against polygamous marriages.
topic was about bible or Quran :D
james white should answer point about bible which he didnt
@Nazam44 - Do you think so ?!? I don't think that I do that. It is clear that islam rejects many teachings in the Bible; that is not in dispute here. The question (AGAIN) is whether muslims have a valid basis for accepting the koran as valid and for rejecting the enitire truth of the Bible. This is the flaw of your arguments: it is contradictory to say you will accept what you like and reject what you did not like/understand. Jesus said he is THE way and THE truth. Any other way is a dececption
@Romans9Apologetics
Yes, but the word doesn't have one meaning even if it was used for YHVH. What I'm interested is, a non-ambiguous verse in which Prophet Jesus (Peace and blessings of Allah swt be on to him) said he is God!
@laserwolf130, The truth is in the prophecies. Qur'an has no prophecies, but The Bible does- from the Beginning (Genesis) to the end (Revelation). I've sent this to several Muslims and posted them as mush as I could on their sites before my comments stop appearing , and NONE has debunked this video:
"Jesus Christ is Lord - Spirit of Prophecy"
watch?v=Ezy0cfi4ub8
Plus, there are the historical documents outside the Bible but that would be another video.
and the Bible says that the sun is created in the FOURTH day. you don't need the Qur'an to see the falsehood.
what Christians need to use is not intelligence, what you need is HONESTY.
in the day of judgement, i wonder what answer will Christians give when God ask "why do you take this Bible which clearly contains falsehoods as guidance and say that it is MY words?"
James , the fact is that you are way too clueless about the Quran , I mean you dont know even the basics. On the other hand Shabir Ally not only knows alot about Quran but knows alot more about bible that you do. Just dont come up with written , nonacademic type of commoners debate materials. Not only that, you are trying to cool things a little too much. You dont hide any thing .. you just lie openly. Oh by the way you came here for debate , not for mediation. You totally unimpressed me.
@SoldierOfChrist110 are you alright mate? The manuscripts what we have were written MUCH after Jesus death. A lot of difference. I think you need to watch a debate of Shabir Ally vs Dr. Buzzard. One worthy Christian whom i wanna listen. The gospel that Jesus preached.
you are right, James white makes a mistake that means he makes a mistake. but there is other facts to prove that what he think the bible is can't be true.
@lacatuscovalschi yes but the four authors give different account of each event.watch the debate.
hahaha instead of refuting shabir's points, james went on to argue against islam! insead of defending his position, he attacks Quran. hahaha as if he is afraid to talk about the subject.
@Vasilis719 (Cont'd)
U couldn't answer how David is described as someone who committed adultery SAMUEL 11:4 and betrayed and murdered Uriah 2 SAMUEL 11:6-25 and then danced naked. Is that how ur bible describs the prophets(or"saints") of God?!
But why am i surprised when u even insult God almighty in ur book?!
- A hissing God- ISAIAH 5:26, 7: 18, ZECHARIA 10:8
- A "roaring" God - ISAIAH 42:13, JEREMIAH 25:30
- A "barber" God - ISAIAH 7:20
(Cont'd)
@Vasilis719
(cont'd) you really don't undertsand anything about islam or about arabic language!!
Arabic language in general had no vowels at that time. Back in the Middle East 1400 years ago, the Quraishi dialect was not the only one used among Arabs. There existed 6 other dialects along with it but it was the most popular and most accurate dialect. The Arabic dialects had problems with each others, and that's why standardizing the Noble Quran with its original Quraishi dialect was essential
@Vasilis719
As for ur bible, it is corrupted according to Moses. Deuteronomy 31:29"For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."
Jeremiah 8:8 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
"It is so obvious that over history,people have changed the bible, edited it, revised it to suit themselves." hi my freind, give me an example pls. thanks
@TeraPeoPunjabi, If the arguments are "weak"
@midleground
Muslims do not say that u've to be muslim(in the sense of praying 5 times a day, fasting ramadan, etc.) to go to heaven. rather you'd have to be a muslim in the sense of submission to God and making no partners with him in ordr to go to heaven. I guess it's fair that God will only allow u to enter his heaven if u believe in Him.
If you see the diff you'd see that christianity and Judaism are named after persons but islam is not named Muhammadiasm. Islam means submission to God.
Subhan Allah. 1:15:05 This is such a pathetic statement that mark was in rush and didn't have enough time to put together all information...you are kidding man. The Book called Aqeeda tul Wastia written by Imam Ibn Taimiah raheem ullah alayehe about 700 years ago just between Asr and Salat ul Isha meaning in about 4 hours approximately and this book has been explained further by no. of scholars came after him and no mistake and beautiful summarized book on Aqeedah.
am I, .?!? sorry, my friend, but I do no such thing. The questions I have put forth here are based completely on what muslims I have spoken with have told me are the truth & requirements of Islam, my own faith (christianity) and the original scriptures. I have been told that (one of ) the main teachings of Islam & the Bible is 'submission' - ok then, where does it, in fact, assert or teach that ? We are told an angel from the BIble gave the Koran to Muhammad - what's the proof ?
Alsamiri did exist at the time of Moses peace upon him he was the man that made the ignorant Jews think that the idol is their God and the God of Moses peace upon him.
@Vasilis719
The word of God should always have a purpose. wut's the puprose or biblical lesson learned from knowing these erotic details?
What's the biblical lesson from learning that Lot was drunk and slept with his daughters yet God saved them and there was no punishment? (GENESIS 19:33-35 )
What's the lesson from knowing that Noah , a man trusted by God to build a huge ship and save the believers, was a drunkard?! Can God trust a drunkard with that kind of responsibility?!
NT was decided until 393 C.E. When the Orthodox and Catholic churches decided the canon. Was NO NEW TESTAMENT UNTIL THE 4th CENTURY. James White is flogging himself on the back when he speaks. The gospels and other letters quote other works. Does that mean something like the book of Enoch is "inspired"?