Dune Ornithopters and Volerian Propulsion System
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video we are going to explore the fascinating flying machine from the 2021 movie Dune. The thopters in Dune are very versatile aircrafts. To make them in real life, we will have to reduce the vibration levels and increase the sweep of the stroke.
We also look at Volerian propulsion system which looks like something from the movies but is actually based on a less known aerodynamic phenomenon called the Katzmayr Effect.
For more detailed video on Ornithopter, please check the following link:
• Dragonfly Secret: Key ...
With vibration frequencies being a major "red flag" to sand worms, you think the 'thropters flying low or landing/idling in the desert would attract sand worms in the same way personal shields do in the deep desert. The vibrations those wings give off have to attract their attention.
But there are no sand worm of such kind in our real world.
@@sandburger974 But there are sand worms of such kind in Dune universe.
I thought of something to try
One drone can be obtained
4 wings on each side means that with the vibration they cancel each other out while moving in opposite directions making it act basically just like a normal helli
As I told a friend of mine:
The ornithopters are cool as hell and if we had them, my life's goal would be to own and fly one. Sadly, they will never be, because a rotor-wing aircraft is infinitely (literally) more efficient and powerful. All the material science and engineering that would go into making a Dune-style Ornithopter would make rotor-wing and fan-driven aircraft even better. The reason? Continually rotating hub on a shaft. Nature can't do that, because organic things require continual feeding and/or blood flow. Turn an owl's head a full 360 degrees, and all you'll have is a messily dead owl. *Engineering* however, can make a rotating wheel/hub-and-axle combo all day, every day, and has done so since we figured out the wheel.
I've seen firsthand that if you apply a wing surface via a forward pylon mounting a rotator with a free spin of about 15 degrees, merely waving the wing back and forth will provide neutral forward thrust.
So it could work well?
Small insects and hummingbirds - fast wing movement; large eagles, geese and albatross - gliding and slow wing movement. It looked cool in the movie, but I did think that the wings and drive mechanism must have to be made from a material that's an order of magnitude stronger and lighter than anything we currently have. It may even have to be held together using a force field or strong magnetic field to stop it from ripping apart.
С помощью реактивного двигателя от реактивной струи которого двигаются крылья орникоптера
If you have FTL you probably have the ability to locally distort time. think about it, slow down time around the wings and they don't need to be able to move that fast.
Thanks for the fantastic video and explanation of the Reynolds number!
I would have loved a short take on how an ornithopter would have to scale in order to work. Like how much weight and how big wings and flapping speed would you need to make such full scale ornithopters work.
Great suggestion!
Let's talk about the first problem with dragonfly-topters - the vibrations caused by the high frequency of wing movement.
I think it will be possible to solve this problem in the future by using a method of controlling the rotation of each wing, similar to the method of controlling the brushless motor on drones using controllers with mosfets. To stabilize multi-rotor in space, the cheapest mpu6000 gyro chips are used, for example. Based on the data from the gyroscope, accelerometer and a control signal with information about the throttle level, the controller with a high frequency using mosfets constantly sends current at different frequencies to the motor windings. Today, even the most flimsy multi-rotor assemblies can be setup to fly smoothly. Greater smoothness is achieved using a scheme with two gyroscopes. Why not try to control the wings of a dragonfly-topter in a similar way?
Seems like inertia isn't going to work for the valerian design. The obvious difference between it and a standard rotating prop for propulsion. I don't think this can be overcome. Lots of wasted energy switching directions. Looks cool though. At the speed required for usable thrust though, the mechanism would pull itself apart with high freq vibes.
Fantastic video, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Anyone notice it's HEAVILY influenced by the orni in Dune CD?
It's not the frequency as much as the compressability, and cavicational problems, and the at this size I can believe the sound they make would be stultifying. But more advanced technology like the posses changes things.
Thanks for the science 👍🏼
Our pleasure!
Yep. You obviously never heard of an "RC Dragon Fly", which functioned exactly like the insect. That was over 10yrs ago.
So as such, I'm sure, that a military grade one is not far fetched.
Have you ever actually SEEN one of those RC dragonflies? They're quite small. And the wing beat-rate is still a tiny fraction of what the insect is. Making a four-pair onithopther *is* possibly doable, but it's wings wouldn't buzz like a dragonfly. They'd chop like a helicopter, they'd also look rather different, too. You watched the video, but I don't think you comprehended the critiques completely. The larger the wing, the slower it moves, moving it faster doesn't make more lift, just noise and extra mechanical stress.
Note also that, as an R/C heli pilot, I can tell you from experience that the smaller the helli, the faster the main rotor spins to achieve lift, it's the same principle at work.
also, there's an R/C dragonfly right in the stock footage, and you can see how slow the wings beat, and the wing profile being used. a real life thopter would look more like that. It would also be a rather poor weapons platform I wager. vibrations mess with targeting systems.
I like this video
Seems like a simple thing to test. 3d print a Wing
But what about the material for the print?
You can't 3d print sturdily enough at that scale... at a smaller scale it would obviously work as we see in insects
(2:42) It's actually a flying balloon
Ola...qual o nome deste filme usado como exemplo?..obrigado
Dune (2021)
Secara ember betulan..
Urdu ya hindi mai video banao to zada views milay gai. Angraizo ko english mai samjhana ka koi faida nahi apni local language mai video banao. Ta k apne logo ka faida ho
Humaray logon ko in cheezon main koi dilchaspi nahi. unkay liay technology mobile phone a naya model hai. Mera channel hai jis per urdu main videos hoti hain. Koi nahi dekhta
@@ElectricAviation Isi bat ka to afsos hai yar
KONYOOLLL,,,,,,!!!! ,,,😑😑😑👎👎👎👎👎👎👎
I wonder if the thopter uses multiple wings to cancel out vibration? And perhaps the fast wing movement in the same way as a bumble bee? I seem to remember that has some strange aerodynamic effects that enable it to fly at all. Anyway, another great video.
Good point!
Good point... however the roots of the wings would have to be in the same place to cancel out all vibrations, this way it would rotate a slight bit every time. Not to mention vibrations just from the mechanics... you're right though, most of the vibrations should be cancelled out
I believe the video showed that to take advantage of vortex shedding from the forward wings, a dragonfly's rear wings move a bit out of phase from the forward wings.
I was wondering if the wings might actually have floating components inside the hubs (which lead to a greater balancing of reciprocating masses)... and maybe some kind-of dynamic tendency towards cancelling out of forces... this is a technology which has been perfected over more than ten thousand years by an aristocratic society which doesn't use computers... so they'd have plenty of time for fine tuning.
The small area of wing sweep means that the volume of air isn't very large and the rate of beats means that the same air is being hit by multiple wing beats at low flight speeds... it is hard to see how this could be efficient for propulsion (as opposed to just making noise)... that I see as a bigger problem than the material or vibration issues. It'd be interesting to explore and try to rationalise though...
YESSS i have been waiting for this!!! Thank you for covering and explaining the issues with the Dune Thopters so thoroughly, i 100% agree with you 😊 The idea of many small flapping wings instead of large slow ones sounds promising though!! Super interesting as always, and very well conveyed 😊
With a larger flapping wing, the forces on the wing joints would also be much larger... do you think there are any materials able to withstand these at a human scale, even at a slower rate of flapping? And would the vibrations even be bearable 😅
You're so welcome!
I think in Edgar Rice Burrough's Mars series, the wings flapped slower. Course those were written before we knew how thin Mars atmosphere actually was.
I thought it was because of 8th ray effect, so the ships were effectively solar-powered?
They showed several different designs for Volerian, but the one that has the airfoil inside a channel will never work. It traps the reaction so no net force is created. This design is right up there with puling yourself up by your shoe strings. It scares that the inventer might actually have an engineering degree.
Volarian Thruster producing lift makes as much sense a Solid Hydrogen energy storage.
It's a very interesting concept. Those vortices generated by the oscillating wing represent lost energy (only the components of air moving backward generate net thrust). Maybe that static airfoil is just to straighten those vortices back out and thus "generate" additional lift?
@@GuyIncognito764 i agree... i don't get how they would increase thrust apart from straightening airflow and reducing vortices 😅
Theoretically, in the future this type of wing could possibly be built not from rigid materials actuated by a mechanism from the chassis, but using electrically actuated active materials, so the wing structure itself would stretch or compress by electric current, creating fluctuations of high frequency flapping action that would produe the thrust. In this instance, the wings should only be mounted to the chassis with dampeners and hydraulic actuators that would alter the angle and position of the wing. Alternatively, pairs of wings electromagnetically controlled relative to each other could be used.
Just imagining that is really cool.
Fascinating! I wonder how many other pilots of fixed and rotary wing aircraft (and drones) are gobsmacked by this. Certainly this takes our aerodynamics lectures to another level!
Good thing Dune still is science fiction, that just looks pretty cool. I would like to know how big we can actually build Thopters. And i am looking forward to Volerian showing a prototype and the 2nd part of Dune.
Thanks you , for this high quality video with you explaining something such that a lot of people (including me) can understand it. The link from Dune, towards the reynolds number to the Katzmayr Effect. Can't wait to see you explain that one. You should have been teaching when I was on school. A lot of teacher can't explain properly.
Please keep making these great videos!
I was a lecturer in Scotland for about about 6 years
@@ElectricAviation That explain it 😁
Tot are very good at what you are doing. Please keep doing this.
@@ElectricAviation Aye, that explains the accent! :P
Nano Tubes?…. We’re still fumbling around with the tried-n-true “primitive” materials… we’re barely scratching the surface w/developing new materials to do amazing things like this beautiful flying machine from this movie.
"An object cannot act upon itself", no lift will be created by the static, internal wing in the Volarian thruster.
Best use of my time today, love ur vids, always leaves me with smth to think about for hours. Thank you!
Glad you like them!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
More like this pls, love all your videos, pls dont get a different narrator again tho!!
If you think any other craft from films warrant a video and discussion id love to hear it.
I dont understand the purpose of the static wings INSIDE the enclose that also houses the moving propulsors. They would seem to simply be extra mass that contributes nothing useful. Making the enclosure that holds the propulsors an aerofoil shape - that makes sense. Possibly even better would be to have a propulsor strip just above the leading edge of the wing, to increase the lift generated a little. I'd be greatly interested to hear more details about this system, when such are available (I've checked their website - no details as yet)
As for ornithopters, I'd have thought that the closest that's likely to be achievable at a scale that could carry humans would be something like a glider with that part of the trailing edge not used for the ailerons having a flexible membrane that actuators move up and down - possibly only one per wing would be needed, near the wing root
The static wing is what produces the lift i think, since the air being pushed over the edges generates lift as well as straightening the airflow downwards.
The glider concept sounds promising, I'm pretty sure there are existing flapping wing aircraft with this combination of static main wing and small flapping propulsion wing from the last century - very fascinating...
Well small insect drones with dragon fly wings have been designed for years. It's materials and controls scaling up in size that is the issue.
Great job explaining the concepts behind the copters
My first impression when see those crafts from dune was wow nice sifi craft
I think the last solution would be limited by inertia meaning the paddles would always have to be small or at least be of minimal weight such that they can manage the high flapping frequency needed. Therefore I think this does not bode well for very big load carrying ability.
Fantastic analysis. Love the visual fantasy of the Dune ornithopters but completely impractical. Couldn't see how the vibration, jarring stop/start up/down motion and high speed rotation or deformation of the foils could be effective even assuming some sort of anti grav suspensor technology. It would have to be an eliptical stroke to even be possible. Didn't consider the whole scale and viscosity.
🟦 Ornithopters can only be scaled-up just so far,.....any larger than that & they CEASE to be a practical method of achieving flight.
Thanks to the Holtzman Effect, they can manipulate gravity on a cosmic scale.
So what's the point in using fast swinging wings or wings at all?
They have room-lamps that can just hover around and maneuver in all directions using gravitational manipulation, so they should be able to apply that to a larger aircraft as well.
Maybe they use this capability, to make the wings weightless or at least lighter, what would solve the vibration problem and the stress problem.
regarding your claims for topters not being practical or possible:
1. vibrations can be isolated as seen in the real life insects who use this type of flying
2. the same thing applies for angle change, the stickiness can be overcome by higher force or vibrations can help here ...also shields and so on
3. dune atmosphere/ gravity can have different properties therefore making all ofthese points points quite moot :)
Stupid idea if we can do a rotational device.
You make an obsolete assumption upon insisting that the wing oscillation MUST be Conveyed to the Airframe. That'd be TRUE, TODAY, but, in "Dune", I think liquid-vicious Joints that trigger into 'gels' on a micro-second timescale, by chemical/voltage controls, will solve that issue, as it ISN'T ALWAYS the Direct Mechanical interface, but ALSO the LUBRICANT around such a 'joint'. Really, do you have no imagination?
Do you think this cat does not know that the dung beetle flies from vibration alone?? And it's wings cannot physically produce lift for flight ?? We can fly on high vibrational frequency alone lol
I wonder what engineers said about the issues with making aircraft from metals and have them fly faster than the speed of sound or have them hover in the air like a balloon, back in the beginning of the 20th century?
Then there was progress and better materials, metallurgy, carbon fibers, jet engines, helicopters, supersonic aircraft, spacecrafts, that were "totally impossible" just a couple decades ago... Now, when does the story of Frank Herbert's Dune take place? Ah, right some 20,000 years in the future. Maybe, just maybe humanity made some progress in solving high frequency vibration issues, along with FTL travel and colonizing distant worlds? 😂
Vibration is only specially damaging if you are near the harmonic frequency of the material. There are issues with material fatigue, ofc, but that doesnt mean its an impossible design due to the frequency. its the year 10.000, im sure you can develop some metamaterial with high enough material fatigue life and certain natural frequency to make it practical for long enough to just replace the wings from time to time
If you are theorizing how this would be accomplished in our real world, well ok. But, if you are attempting to figure how it's pulled off in the universe of Dune, you are dead wrong. Read the Dune Encyclopedia published in 1984. You'll find how it works, according to Herbert...and it's...weird.
But of course it's the year 10191! (after the Butlerian Jihad, which is already thousands of years from today). 😆They have human computers, interstellar space flight and a Kwisatz Haderach who can see the future. 😉
I really enjoy this video. I do believe 100% that artificial intelligence will solve the vibration and frequency phenomenon,allowing us to experience a flying toy
Many acoustique problème, too complexe than turbo rotation (ultra sound problem in front of fan).
The solution is to forget all this solution, and work on jonction josephson graphite propuslion, it's easy to provide a strong gravity cohérente wave.
Flying carpet is possible.
This is why I can't stand science fiction sometimes; they get it completely wrong. At least Avatar got it right with Aerospatiale SA-2 Samson, a rotor-wing aircraft that fills out a general utility niche.
It seems like you forgot the most important part of the movie !
if you know there’s no water on the planet . So that being the case you would have to try to fly to fluid.
'
dont work...
real 4wingfly insect and machine ornithopter arms aircrafts are not matchables
My solution: Genetically engineer a giant dragonfly...then train them (make sure you don't get eaten).
Now what if Rolls Royce shock absorbers are used to withstand the vibrations 🤣🤣
Eliminating the vibration from an ornithopter's wings would just like doing the same thing for the cylinders of an engine, set the proper wing flap timing.
Really ...the ICE drives through the crankshaft of any one of so many configurations depending upon the location on a 360 degree plane of rotation, that may be set at any required number of planes of spherical activity. A rotary four is rather simple versus a rotary 24. The crankshaft counter weights are the reason that the ICE does not self destruct. Some engines have employed "balance shafts". The electric motor's rotor is balanced in a more simple format. As the author so aptly points out, the design is in need of a break-through modification that may support the very rapid oscillation of the "energy-to-wing" process. Look at a heavy lift Helicopter's wings as they oscillate their angle of attack through a single revolution; and work from that.
There is a way, we just have yet to apply more science. Thank you.
@@bigfish7493 The first Ornithopter had 8 wings, the second had 6 wings, and the third had 4 wings. Just like with a Car's engine it takes a series of timing and balancing principles to get the performance right, it would work the same with this Ornithopter. Even Aircraft have to use timing and balancing principles in order to fly properly. It will take a series of testing to find out all the performance envelope of such a craft.
you are obviously wrong on this because the material made is not of this planet, its not simple steel its another type of material, and in tge ufo community community the material used can be the difference in a car and a flying car no fuel needed.
The static airfoil inside the duct will never generate net lift. OP inability to even mention this discredits the whole video.
Thanks for making this video.
Just watched Dune and was curious if such aircrafts could be made.
my guy, its a fantasy film
what a great presentation, thanks.
I'm not an engineer or material scientist but I imagine trying to make something that mechanically moves that fast would be super difficult and the wings would have to be crazy strong. but IF it was possible...I mean Dragon fly's are the true masters of flying in the real world so I could imagine how crazy a vehicle that can mimic their ability to just...fly however the hell they want would be amazing.
Or maybe they use some kind of time distortion effect around the wings so they really aren't moving that fast. Technology in the Dune universe is very very very advanced and I vaguely recall there were time distortion fields used on starships to affect repairs in a short period of time during emergencies. For anyone inside hours or days go by while outside only a few minutes pass. It used the FTL engines somehow but it's been decades since I read the books so my memory is foggy.
I'm going to take my money out of Theranos and put it into Volerian
*Edit this is an old flawed comment, some corrections in the replies
I think these would make a great replacement for exploration or military helicopters since they have all the theoretical agility of a helicopter and could if designed properly could glide in the case of lossing engine power
Unfortunately the materials science just isn’t there and the mechanics would be INCREDIBLY difficult. It’s a neat idea though.
Helicopters can glide, it's called autorotation.
Yeahhh this would make the F-35’s budget look like something you’d dig up out of your couch.
@@nerd1000ifyyup I found this out a little after posting the comments, although on the material science aspect, the real life science suggests that a larger wing wouldn't have to flap nearly as fast, so it wouldn't be as harsh on the system as the dune designs.
I do realise now that the thopter may actually be more dangerous than a helicopter on engine failure as they could only glide forward like a plane, and with forward velocity. While a helicopter autorotating can "glide" straight down even if it's engine died as it hovered
@@outrun7455it wouldn't be that bad, the f35 is WAY more complex than you think, the ornithopter would just need some new avionics systems and some decently complex mechanical engineering development, a lot of the RnD and aerodynamics research would be made significantly easier with computer simulation and AI assistance just like in the f35 and f22, (and computers have advanced a lot since then) so it would be possible just unlikely anyone will bother
All this is without mentioning that such technology has been attempted and almost succeeded before even in the 40s with the Riout T102, and a miriade of unmanned drones
There is a solution sound speaker can work with some modification as wing
Would like to know more about the Kashmir affect please
Someone should build an electric Ekranoplan.
Volerian?! Wow. Sounds good, doesn't work
Great video as usual. I hadn't heard the name damsel fly for (to me) a dragon fly. What a difference a name can make...
It does!
Damselflies and dragonflies are related, but they're not the same thing. They're so similar that to most people the difference doesn't matter, and they fly the same way so they're interchangeable for the purposes of this video, but a damselfly is not a dragonfly.
And they say there is no God , goodness gracious how silly.
These insecta formation wings, work well in greater gravity while thinner atmosphere, when you consider insect size, gravity is stronger in ratio vs human size creatures, thus the air is not as dense in ratio, limbs in ratio is endurance to insects, perhaps another planet for humans. Btw, the jets are substitute of insect inertial micro fins.
Wouldn't it be the opposite, theyd work better in a thicker more viscous atmosphere and less gravity? Essentially more like water... buoyancy reduces effects of gravity and it's more viscous. Seems to work for whales.
Please..your accent is uncomfortable ..sorry but it is
Why do an autopsy on a fantasy movie? Just enjoy the movie!
Lazy animators didn't care it needs to change angle on every swing in the first place. But the animation was already hard when this simple.
True... they could've at least pointed them downwards on takeoff tho 😅 the way they are now they're just beating the air haha
I can hardly wait to see the sky filled with flying harmonicas. Do you think they will play blues.
Ask the Blues Brothers. 😁
Parese.quê de vocês tem um produto meu o do sangues e eu não o informei
Everyone knows sound speaker effeciency high
Damsel flies only have one pair of wings.
Concept 100% stolen from Lexx!
What is name the movie in the start video I want see it full
These can be made today using an alloy of 42.638% Valyrian Damascus steel and 57.362% special titanium found only in certain meteors that land on earth once every 2.6 years in the north east quadrant of Siberia. This is the only alloy with the required tensile strength to possibly hold together under the harsh vibrations while still being lightweight enough. The bonus is that the craft will also be completely bulletproof.
This should be common knowledge by now but the information is still being suppressed.
lol they are in the shape of a dragon fly not a damselfly
DONT TALK ABOUT IT MAKE IT NOW WORKING PROPERLY
The Volerian system, to me, doesn't look like it would work. Blowing a stream of air over a foil FROM the aircraft is like setting up a fan on the deck of a sailboat to blow into the sail. Yes, the wiggling fishtails will produce thrust but more efficiently than a standard propeller?
Damselflies are so darn beautiful
What if the Arrakis atmosphere is thinner?
Ornithopter is a GREEK word for "bird wing" which implies feathers so technically its wrong even if its used as such in Dune. Technically if we want to be accurate the correct words should be either Entomopter or Anisopter for insect wings since the craft mimics a dragonfly.
The term ornithopter in aviation refers to any aircraft that produces lift by using flapping wings, regardless of whether the shape is inspired by a bird or insect. This has been the case for over a century.
This concept is based on a drawing by Davinci, he couldn't make it fly
Great content, as always.
Much appreciated!
fascinating and well made
They can be made but, can they be made so you don't bounce like crazy and collapse your spine? That's the real question
isolating the vibrations is not the only way, the wings of the ornithopters may be balanced in a way to eliminate some or all the vibrations instead, then you need to account for the tech differences between today and the setting in the movie (mainly the material sciences).
Topter: i can glide, dive, hover, and fly backwards, yeah sounds like a helicopter to me
The Dune ornithopters are totally possible with anti-gravity and vibranium!
'thopters are like mechs. Not necessarily practical but damn cool anyways :)
Having read the original book the film is adapted from, as well as the other 2 screen adaptations, these are the most faithful to the ornithpters in the novel, and they do look fantastic. They are still, however, 'wrong': the book's ornithopters, as described, use acombination of jet turbines and bird-like wings, which flap fairly slowly. I dont maintain that *these* would work, either, in reality. It does seem slightly odd that a society with anti-gravity technology (Holtzman suspensors) would bother with winged aircraft at all.
Have you considered that Holtzman suspensors combined with the wing technology of the ornithopter is far more efficient than they are individually? (:
Dune was so a grait Move ! AAA
It's a very interesting vidio
The flying harmonica is pretty cool too!!!
It's not the scale, it's force available..
Yes its inertial force over viscous force, but I wanted to break is down for a more generic audience. Scale does impact the inertial force
im pretty sure that ornithopter can be done. it would have be a single seater.
Plz, plz, plz make more videos! 🙏🏻🤩