Having AloisNL coach you is basically all you need to become proficient in lane timings, which is everything you'll ever need to have a successful climb! Proper wave manipulation is kinda like "denying" creeps from your opponent due to being able to zone enemies away from gold and\or XP. Edit: Looking forward to seeing Grubby do a ranked series! Also with Alois always preaching fundamentals, what better way to put his theorem to the test than by teaching a new player with Grubby's ability to garner information and have him practice it without being a mechanical genius (yet)?
You will need to at least master one champion before that. A lot of people think they do but they dont, matchups, how much you can do how much you can take, combos how your skills change when you lvl up, cd, mana costs etc. but, yeah wave manipulation is the most important fundamental in league.
@@moutiaRPyou can't master a champ, you just need to mastery on a champ, it's different because it's something you improve over time, it's not just an on-switch you get after x games or x amount of knowledge
@@moutiaRP League is a lot easier if you have the tools to get an advantage every game by having enemy laners practically walk into bad trades. So that probably happens somewhere along the climb. Also not like there aren't plenty braindead champs that are still very powerful.
To the guy in grubbys twitch chat who said "nah silver players know levelup timers": knowing a fact and consciously considering its practical applications are two different concepts and while the latter is usually named the same as the former for convenience reasons (like the way alois does it in his "people below masters don't know levelup timers" speeches), the former is nowhere near being the same as the latter
Dude grubby is so smart here. I am so impressed with the amount of understanding and forward thinking he showed during the session. Soo many intricate questions where he utilised his knowledge of other games and applied it to a new game. Alois still the goat as always, honestly I knew nearly everything beforehand but it was still so refreshing and entertaining watching this coaching session!!!! Pls do more of this content, you 2 are killing it!! :D
An easy way to think about minion aggro is simply if something is point and click, it draws aggro. Autoattacks are point and click, so they raw aggro. Skillshots and AoEs aren't point and click, but if a skillshot ability specifically says it triggers on-hit effects - Ezreal Q being the primary example - it draws aggro; the inherited autoattack behavior takes priority. There aren't really any hidden exceptions since any ability that applies on-hit effects will generally say so.
Yone and yasuo q don't draw agro if you also hit a creep with them that's closer to you than the champion hit, for all those abilities same for ez q's splash with hydra (and with aoe from azirs soldiers eventho it deals % of all dmg onhit included) it has to be main target of such ability
@@hexflash. I feel like I should be stressing more if I want to climb… I started off this season iron and was stuck gold and barely made it to plat when I started going super try hard (not smoking weed while playing and locking in)
Love seeing the toplane content. Would also LOVE too see you get coached by Bwipo. One of the best macro decision makers too touch the game. You guys have same vibe etc. LOVE YOU GRUB GRUB
Small detail that ends up being a big factor in wave priority is the position of the wave. Sure, the fact that the opponent has leftover minions from previous wave dealing damage to your new wave as their new one comes in matters, but the way minion ai is coded, the stretched out minion wave in the "on the move" state spreads its agro equally on all the targets in the enemy wave as it connects (in neutral position each melee is targeted precisely by 1 opposing melee and 1 opposing caster) and after their respective first assigned target dies they switch to the closest one, so in reality after your minion wave finishes off the remains of previous enemy wave they start ALL focusing the one melee minion of the next wave making it die (and stop contributing to DPSing your wave) way quicker than any of your melees will since their aggro is equally spread among your 3 melees, naturally pushing the wave. Add your and your opponent's lasthitting (which he due to the riskiness of situation will naturally do less of) contributing to the wave dps and you have a situation where 4-5 (3-4 if full hp but that's unlikely to happen as they're the first target to be hit by your minions) melees or 2-3 casters leftover creates a natural bounce with a slowpush.
@39:00-- So back in the early seasons (maybe even season one or open beta?) there was a glitch with Heimerdinger where he could place his turrets at the spawning locations for minions by the nexus. The turrets and Heimer would prevent minions from spawning. Teammates didn't have minions to back them up, but the other team didn't get any farm while Heimer's 4 teammates got to farm for free. After like 30 minutes, Heimer can then move aside and it will spawn every wave simultaneously from every lane into whatever lane Heimer was blocking. This would create a giant horde of like 300 minions to spawn down mid lane where they could push to end the game. This glitch was quickly patched when videos of it started showing up on TH-cam. There was also a period of "proxy farming," using champs with tons of mobility like Master Yi and Singed. You basically go hang out between an enemy's turrets where you kill every minion, often by pulling them part way into the jungle. When enemy champs show up to get you to go away, you just skedaddle off into the jungle. You end up denying farm to multiple champions because one lane is stuck farming under turret and other champs aren't farming because they're too busy chasing Singed (don't chase the Singed). There were nerfs to champs that could do this and some changes to minion pathing that removed this from the game.
This is quickly becoming my favorite content to watch. Ive recently been inspired to play seriouslg again and hit Emerald on NYE! Absolutely loving watching you learn these concepts and asking interesting questions. It's sparking my own curiosity about the game and improving how I think about the game as well.
I have a revolutionary tip for Alois; he can put the active stream camera spot on top of the spot he used in the original video to not clutter up the screen twice.
Loved this, thanks. Would appreciate learning sessions with chat off the screen in the future. Just my opinion, but seeing the bad faith arguments, reductive interpretations of actually complex concepts, the eternal sandbox debate of which moba is better - and most of all - the personal insults towards the coach. It is so insanely disrespectful and distracting that I'll enjoy this one as a podcast. Keep up the vids!
About minion aggro, think it this way: the things that do draw minion aggro are EVERYTHING that involves an act of choosing the single target if you choose the champion as said target PLUS ezreal yone yasuo and zeri q if you hit a champion as their main target (yone and yasuo qs wont draw aggro if the closest target to you that was hit wasnt a champion and ez qs deal damage to one target only, not sure if who is the first target of zeris q means anything for that regard) which are skillshots treated as autoattacks. Basic autoattacks for every champion inherently carry the "choosing the target" part so no need to specify that they do draw aggro aswell (which they do in case i overcomplicated my explanation).
League minion aggro rules are wild! I'm no expert and I don't play much anymore, but I've been keeping up with league since beta and this is the first time I've ever seen someone that explicitly understands it.
very few skillshots will draw minion aggro, and those that do have a targeting function (or auto attack) and built in ezreal Q is a skillshot but also an auto attack so it will draw aggro azir's sand soldiers are a product of his w, and their auto attacks on champs will draw aggro senna q will draw aggro if you hit a champion, even if you target a minion attacking towers also draws minion aggro if i had to guess, the magic words that make this function through spells are "apply on hit effects"
39:00 taking other lanes minions is possible, there was an old youtuber Singed420 that one tricked proxy Singed (Proxy is when you farm the enemy waves behind their towers) basically he would work his way into the enemy base and take the entire top and mid lane minion waves. The only up side to this is your mid laner gets to perma roam the map with the jungler while the enemy mid laner is stuck perma shoved, also someone HAS to chase the Singed around in their base getting 0 gold or exp and applying 0 pressure until he dies all the while he gets double gold and exp while doing it. The down side to this was sometimes your team would just get pissed and tilt.
Premium content 🔥🔥🔥 I love Mac and his coaching but, his cocaching is WAY more efficient for players who already are pro or really high lvl, alois gonna help you to honning your understendings of the basics. FUNDAMENTALS GUYS, REMEMBER THE FUNDAMENTALS
Dang a lot of concepts covered in this video. You should also know that to freeze a wave, you need 4 enemy minions to be left to attack your next wave when your wave hits theirs. So their new wave plus those 4 minions will kill your wave and have 4 enemy minions left while keeping the wave in the same spot.
I might be wrong but I do believe minions are tethered to lanes in some way. They won't chase into river or jungle past a certain distance regardless of what you do. Like they have a prime directive of 'Walk on this line' and beneath that command is all their other interactions with enemy champions. But once their distance from that line passes a threshold they just revert to their prime directive. I'm actually curious if I have it wrong?
you're right. You cant pull a wave behind your tower like in dota, or draw a wave to another lane, or draw 2 waves from different lanes together in the jungle and farm them at the same time, or draw a lane to a jungle creep and farm them both with aoe (kinda possible with the golem camp tho).
it's crazy, i have been playing and watching this game for years, but didn't even know how exactly the minion aggro works, i just assumed if you hit enemy champs with anything you get aggro, and didn't pay much attention, honestly i still can't believe it, but that explain so much why certain champions are able to take such favorable trades.
Really enjoying this "playing & learning league" series! I was thinking, a lot of people say "wait to play ranked" since you usually end up low ranked if you do that. This advice makes sense for people who are non-streamers, I suppose, since they probably wouldn't want to be low ranked themselves and have to climb out. However, I think it would be good, if not incredible content to see grubby jump into ranked games as soon as possible and get a rank. That way, you could see him incrementally improving with each concept he learns and tier climbed. There would be so much funny and surprising content in these divisions really: the 1v1's/2v2 duels, the team fights and subsequent *team convos* etc. it writes itself really! I also mention this because there's an old video explaining that in the blackmarket of selling league accounts the most expensive ones, even more than diamond ones, are those that are 'truly' iron rank (the lowest rank possible). I suppose it's because people do indeed "wait to play ranked" and thus never place into these divisions making them rarer. Also, I believe Riot does a pretty good job at detecting "smurf" accounts and quickly adjusting their MMR to shove them away. Regardless, it'd still be cool content to see if Grubby can just visit these ranks before his inevitable climb out of them. I doubt Grubby would place in Iron after he reaches lvl 30 (there could be a small possibility rn as he is lol) but even bronze or silver, which the majority of ppl are in, would get peopled hooked like, "what!? Grubby in silver?!" clickbait type deals. I'm just thinking out loud here but either way, hope you're having fun, Grubby!
Something to note is that just because ur lane can be over at 3 minutes doesn't mean the game is over, top is just one of 5 roles and even if you're losing other members of your team could be winning which can then later allow you to recover and come back into being strong and winning the game. Unless you're going 0/10 losing lane isn't cause to surrender as other members of you're team could be winning more than you're losing meaning your team is winning overall.
Of course, but you losing lane could be a determining factor to losing the game as well. Because when good players win lane, they try to snowball off those small leads and expand it further. So the gap between you and him keeps growing. Not set in stone, but thats what usually happens in high ranks (not something Grubby has to worry about right now). But in general sense you are right. There are a lot of variables in the game. Even Master players can often make mistakes that lose them a lane they were winning (dumb trades, forgot to track jgl, bad mid game macro etc)
33min its not single target spell its a point and click spells and autos trigger it so Ryze E on a champ triggers it same with his W skill shots only if the have on hit aplly (like ezreal, gangplank or irelia Q )
Oh yeah toplaners have the best tecnical knowledge and micro and macro and currency in the game, if u want to learn league in the most chad yet unforgiving lane then toplane is ur choice, bwipo is a good coach too, baussffs with the gold death xp and push style, minishcap1 covers proxy style, currency, cheese plays, adaptive itemization/ rune setup mentality macro and teamfights, these are all good tet fun channels to watch and learn best of toplane, keep away from rat player broken champs abusers(druttut..ect ect) Hope he reads the comment
I have been observing your work for many years and I have an intuition that the ideal hero for you will be an unconventional character, especially Shaco. You will have a very hard time fighting against it and learning how to play it, but if you master it, it will give you the most potential to use. The properties of this character perfectly reflect your nickname Grubby ;) Good luck in your new challenges and I really hope that we will meet in a fight or in a team in LOL (EUW server). Greetings from Poland!
This was a great lesson, but I can't help but think that 40 games in, Grubby still needs more general knowledge, such as what items do, some simple timings, and awareness on ganks, etc.Personally, from watching the games, my one suggestion would be better map awareness by paying attention to the mini map more.
Grubby presented so many high level concepts and asked so many good questions... I just wish Alois would go into that instead of ignoring everything he said and only talking about the level up timers. Watching the last coach and this one I'm actually surprised that people rise to the title of "coach" while being absolutely incapable of listening to what their students are saying and adapting their lessons instead of being a tape recorder.
And yet they used the Schroet Kommando nomer in full, even if the tag was SK. They dropped its original meaning in public statements later on. I'm not wrong
Really wish Alois just shared his screen to you on discord instead of having you watch his twitch stream with the huge delay. Trying to keep up with what he was saying while the steam was 5 seconds behind was pretty annoying. Aside from that though he gave good advice.
More ways to manipulate waves in dota from bodyblocking them to pulling camps and lasthitting them (or even dpsing them when they are below 50% hp to drastically change the wave dynamic), in league you have to be more indirect about it
There is, but the players have a direct role to it. Like AI aggro manip to change their positioning (you can manipulate the enemy creep by simply issuing an attack command on the enemy hero even without landing a hit as long as you are in their aggro range) and denying (basically last hitting your own creep to deny them gold and for them to gain lesser EXP if they're down to 40% HP I believe). The thing is that the hero with the higher base attack value and fast animation windup are advantageous. And with skills can't deny creeps, skill-based heroes are in disadvantage.
give us some support coaching videos in League Of Legends o Great Grubby, i reach ancient in dota cause of you and now i want reach platinum in Support in league.
I think this type of content should be pushed more for when you already ranked and you're settled in a rank and you need extra things to go forward. That's just my opinion though. It seems like you're just starting the game and this guy is talking about how many minions each level requires to level up.
Why do dota players have to insert themselves into streams that have nothing to do with them and then instigate for no reason? It makes for an awful viewing experience, especially when theres nothing bad at all happening in the actual stream
Wait I thought Immortal was the highest rank in Dota? But the base MMR for that is only like diamond/master equivalent? There must be an enormous skill gap across that tier
There is. Around 6k mmr is the minimal baseline for immortal. Max mmr right now is around 13k. There's a bigger mmr spread between bottom Immortal and top Immortal than between all the other ranks together. 0-6k = every other rank, 6k+ = Immortal.
@@Seikenguy how does the community feel about that? it seems a strange choice to me. i realize that the higher mmr's have a much smaller player base but that's why i think league does it well with more divisions up there. in fact in starcraft 2 the highest rank was literally the 500 best players that's it
@@TheJerbol well, I've played a lot of dota for the past 2 years, and personally I've never heard anyone complain about it. I think the big reason is in reality no one talks that much about ranks. People always talk about MMR when talking about skill. So like in LoL people say like "I'm Diamond" or "I'm Challenger" to tell how good (or bad) they are. In dota you'd say "I'm 4k mmr" or "I'm 10k mmr". This especially goes for Immortal, since there's such a huge difference in MMR for the bracket. There's also this thing where starting from a certain Immortal MMR you're gonna have little numbers alongside your rank, which can be in the thousands (not sure about this one), hundreds, tens and single digits. That basically shows if you're in the top hundreds of players, or top ten etc. Personally, I prefer the MMR system. It always shows your exact MMR at all times. And honestly MMR is the only thing that matters. I think LoL's system of hidden MMR and different borders for ranks is actually not great. I came back to try LoL like a week ago, and I immediately got flamed and a guy ran down mid simply for me having a Silver border, even though since I matched with him, we have similar MMR.
You said there is no 'denying' minions in league, thats not necessarily true. Proper wave manipulation is the method in which you deny opponent farm. Shoving or freezing a wave when your opponent 1)backs, 2)leaves(like to gank or help their jungle), or 3) dies will cause them to lose all the exp+gold (on top of wasting time in the event of a failed gank/fight)
Minion aggro on abilities is weird. Generally homing abilities and single/multiple target abilities draw minion aggro and aoe ones don't, but there is no general rule: the choice of whether an ability draws minion aggro is made mostly based on whether they can be used to poke reliably in early game.
But why? It's way too early to coach. Just play and learn basics, coaches are ok i guess when you have no idea how to get better at the game. Now you have free info from chat anyways.
Denying creeps by killing them doesn't add another layer of complexity imo. It gives you an easy way out in denying your opponent(s) farm. In LoL, you're forced to be aggressive and creative to accomplish the same thing. So much so that wave management techniques, risk/reward and overall macro elements become much more important.
As a mainly LoL player I think it does add a bit of complexity, but I'd also say that denying is poor game mechanic in general. Ranged champions and strong early game champions will have much easier time denying creeps to enemy, which means that melee & weak early game champions will be even more behind due to missing not only gold but XP too. This leads to essentially every champion in Dota being carry or support champion. The reason it's bad though is even if you're winning you won't get to feel powerful half of the game purely because of the nature of the champion that you play. While in LoL if you're winning, you get to feel powerful whole game.
I only have played dota2 *very* briefly sometime ago, but Grubby makes it sound like there is no passive gold income, and he mentioned that if you die in dota you loose part of the gold you had stocked up, but if you then also deny the enemy their farm on top of that, makes me think one team could pretty much cut off the other team from resources entirely, once they got the snowball rolling hard enough.
@@AndriusChamentauskas That's true, but in return you have pulling and creep blocking as a secondary way to manage your lane state to at the very least get XP. The top and bottom lanes are also not symmetrical, which influences the places you send your carry position to more easily get gold. Most people don't get a lot of denies, but overall it helps maintain lane equilibrium so you can turbofarm.
giving players more agency doesn't necessarily make a game harder/more enjoyable to solve. that's the major problem with these moba comparisons - when a game simple as chess already have a no human-reachable skill ceiling, what's the point of comparing the theoretical complexity?
Their is an opportunity cost to denying creeps as you potentially lose out on last hitting enemy creeps to gain gold/xp. It is very hard to balance both at once as enemy heros do the same. There is no way it doesnt add complexity as it is an extra layer of strategy to manage during laning phase, there are more variables going into the moment to moment 'calculus'. You can also still use aggressiveness and wave management techniques on top of denying, even more so considering the added ability to pull waves to other lanes or jungle camps to manage the push and pull of waves. Whether added complexity is a good thing or not is another question entirely.
![[6.10.24] Stormgate: 1v1 MaNa (Vanguard) vs (Infernals) 【Map: Lost Hope】](/img/n.gif)
Was amazing to make this together man!
More please!! ❤
Having AloisNL coach you is basically all you need to become proficient in lane timings, which is everything you'll ever need to have a successful climb!
Proper wave manipulation is kinda like "denying" creeps from your opponent due to being able to zone enemies away from gold and\or XP.
Edit: Looking forward to seeing Grubby do a ranked series! Also with Alois always preaching fundamentals, what better way to put his theorem to the test than by teaching a new player with Grubby's ability to garner information and have him practice it without being a mechanical genius (yet)?
You will need to at least master one champion before that. A lot of people think they do but they dont, matchups, how much you can do how much you can take, combos how your skills change when you lvl up, cd, mana costs etc. but, yeah wave manipulation is the most important fundamental in league.
laning is important but mid and late are also important if not more if u don't know how to finish u will flip ur games
@@moutiaRPyou can't master a champ, you just need to mastery on a champ, it's different because it's something you improve over time, it's not just an on-switch you get after x games or x amount of knowledge
@@moutiaRP League is a lot easier if you have the tools to get an advantage every game by having enemy laners practically walk into bad trades. So that probably happens somewhere along the climb. Also not like there aren't plenty braindead champs that are still very powerful.
To the guy in grubbys twitch chat who said "nah silver players know levelup timers": knowing a fact and consciously considering its practical applications are two different concepts and while the latter is usually named the same as the former for convenience reasons (like the way alois does it in his "people below masters don't know levelup timers" speeches), the former is nowhere near being the same as the latter
People in diamond are getting fcked by the lvl 2 spike (in botlane atleast, beside the lvl 2 the knowledge is pretty much whatever[on bot])
Who cares about twitch chat tbh. Most of them just write the most random and straight up incorrect statements with challenger confidence.
@@sattes Who are we even kidding. Alois has ran down pro players and high ranked challanger players using lvl2 or 3 timers dozens of times...
Dude grubby is so smart here. I am so impressed with the amount of understanding and forward thinking he showed during the session. Soo many intricate questions where he utilised his knowledge of other games and applied it to a new game. Alois still the goat as always, honestly I knew nearly everything beforehand but it was still so refreshing and entertaining watching this coaching session!!!! Pls do more of this content, you 2 are killing it!! :D
RTS always being broken AF and players live by exploiting or working around bad coding/AI
@@kenim What's an example of exploiting the code here?
An easy way to think about minion aggro is simply if something is point and click, it draws aggro. Autoattacks are point and click, so they raw aggro. Skillshots and AoEs aren't point and click, but if a skillshot ability specifically says it triggers on-hit effects - Ezreal Q being the primary example - it draws aggro; the inherited autoattack behavior takes priority. There aren't really any hidden exceptions since any ability that applies on-hit effects will generally say so.
Yone and yasuo q don't draw agro if you also hit a creep with them that's closer to you than the champion hit, for all those abilities same for ez q's splash with hydra (and with aoe from azirs soldiers eventho it deals % of all dmg onhit included) it has to be main target of such ability
Great to see Alois teaching Grubby some fundamentals!
Love those fanta mentos!
what is the yoyo world champion doing here lol the world is so small
As a 1000 game this season plat 4 player I learned a goood amount this video… I love ur league videos grubby ur so enjoyable to watch
hahahaha 1000 games plat 4? hahahaha must be so stressful
I'm at 300 games plat 1 and I'm so fcking stressed maxed out hahahahaha
ok bro
I am diamond with under 100 games but i still learned a ton from this!
@@hexflash. I feel like I should be stressing more if I want to climb… I started off this season iron and was stuck gold and barely made it to plat when I started going super try hard (not smoking weed while playing and locking in)
@@jobliar937 same hahaha but I'm stuck at silver very hard, I feel like gold is much easier at that moment. But yeah, it's so stressful regardless
AloisNL coaching Grubby? The world really is small!
Well, the Netherlands is definitely not amongst the biggest countries.
Love seeing the toplane content. Would also LOVE too see you get coached by Bwipo. One of the best macro decision makers too touch the game. You guys have same vibe etc. LOVE YOU GRUB GRUB
Yess, finally my new favorite youtubers together. Very helpful video. Keep it up (y)
Small detail that ends up being a big factor in wave priority is the position of the wave. Sure, the fact that the opponent has leftover minions from previous wave dealing damage to your new wave as their new one comes in matters, but the way minion ai is coded, the stretched out minion wave in the "on the move" state spreads its agro equally on all the targets in the enemy wave as it connects (in neutral position each melee is targeted precisely by 1 opposing melee and 1 opposing caster) and after their respective first assigned target dies they switch to the closest one, so in reality after your minion wave finishes off the remains of previous enemy wave they start ALL focusing the one melee minion of the next wave making it die (and stop contributing to DPSing your wave) way quicker than any of your melees will since their aggro is equally spread among your 3 melees, naturally pushing the wave. Add your and your opponent's lasthitting (which he due to the riskiness of situation will naturally do less of) contributing to the wave dps and you have a situation where 4-5 (3-4 if full hp but that's unlikely to happen as they're the first target to be hit by your minions) melees or 2-3 casters leftover creates a natural bounce with a slowpush.
@39:00-- So back in the early seasons (maybe even season one or open beta?) there was a glitch with Heimerdinger where he could place his turrets at the spawning locations for minions by the nexus. The turrets and Heimer would prevent minions from spawning. Teammates didn't have minions to back them up, but the other team didn't get any farm while Heimer's 4 teammates got to farm for free. After like 30 minutes, Heimer can then move aside and it will spawn every wave simultaneously from every lane into whatever lane Heimer was blocking. This would create a giant horde of like 300 minions to spawn down mid lane where they could push to end the game. This glitch was quickly patched when videos of it started showing up on TH-cam.
There was also a period of "proxy farming," using champs with tons of mobility like Master Yi and Singed. You basically go hang out between an enemy's turrets where you kill every minion, often by pulling them part way into the jungle. When enemy champs show up to get you to go away, you just skedaddle off into the jungle. You end up denying farm to multiple champions because one lane is stuck farming under turret and other champs aren't farming because they're too busy chasing Singed (don't chase the Singed). There were nerfs to champs that could do this and some changes to minion pathing that removed this from the game.
This is quickly becoming my favorite content to watch. Ive recently been inspired to play seriouslg again and hit Emerald on NYE! Absolutely loving watching you learn these concepts and asking interesting questions. It's sparking my own curiosity about the game and improving how I think about the game as well.
this is an insane crossover, never thought I'd see the day lol
Let's goo grubby is funding da mentos!!
I have a revolutionary tip for Alois;
he can put the active stream camera spot on top of the spot he used in the original video to not clutter up the screen twice.
1:24:29 chatter's massage had me dying "next slide pls"
Loved this, thanks.
Would appreciate learning sessions with chat off the screen in the future. Just my opinion, but seeing the bad faith arguments, reductive interpretations of actually complex concepts, the eternal sandbox debate of which moba is better - and most of all - the personal insults towards the coach. It is so insanely disrespectful and distracting that I'll enjoy this one as a podcast. Keep up the vids!
you can always check his original twitch vod
@@PepperoniPapaya He always has chat on-screen iirc
@@angellopez5315 ah right I forgot about that. Well just treat the chat as children who don't know any better, they probably are.
Yeah the bad faithness and reductiveness is what I'm most baffled and disappointed by. A lot of people think they know more than they do.
the chat roasting grubby when he was talking for a few minutes straight was fucking funny one guy said who's coaching whom maaaan i'm dead
Part 2 plz ❤ very interesting coaching btw, wave management definitely is a key
About minion aggro, think it this way: the things that do draw minion aggro are EVERYTHING that involves an act of choosing the single target if you choose the champion as said target PLUS ezreal yone yasuo and zeri q if you hit a champion as their main target (yone and yasuo qs wont draw aggro if the closest target to you that was hit wasnt a champion and ez qs deal damage to one target only, not sure if who is the first target of zeris q means anything for that regard) which are skillshots treated as autoattacks. Basic autoattacks for every champion inherently carry the "choosing the target" part so no need to specify that they do draw aggro aswell (which they do in case i overcomplicated my explanation).
Great content guys👍 I learned a lot from this. My brain started melting after the 1hr point though 😂
would be cool to see it the other way around with grubby coaching a high level league player at dota even if he's maybe not the highest level in dota
Literally and honestly the smartest student i have ever seen. I feel like Alois could teach him to be diamond level in like a month xD
Great collab! I've been waiting for this!
Great choice, I've stopped playing lol for Dota but I still religiously watch Alois and Dom
39:00 there are actually a decent amount of cases especially with ganks and fights in botlane, that minions sometimes chase you to or past drake
How much experience to have in dota?
Grubby: Well, let me tell you what I know!
Been watching all of your league content, absolutely love it. With trying out the different MOBA's that are out there, would try Smite as well?
League minion aggro rules are wild! I'm no expert and I don't play much anymore, but I've been keeping up with league since beta and this is the first time I've ever seen someone that explicitly understands it.
very few skillshots will draw minion aggro, and those that do have a targeting function (or auto attack) and built in
ezreal Q is a skillshot but also an auto attack so it will draw aggro
azir's sand soldiers are a product of his w, and their auto attacks on champs will draw aggro
senna q will draw aggro if you hit a champion, even if you target a minion
attacking towers also draws minion aggro
if i had to guess, the magic words that make this function through spells are "apply on hit effects"
39:00 taking other lanes minions is possible, there was an old youtuber Singed420 that one tricked proxy Singed (Proxy is when you farm the enemy waves behind their towers) basically he would work his way into the enemy base and take the entire top and mid lane minion waves. The only up side to this is your mid laner gets to perma roam the map with the jungler while the enemy mid laner is stuck perma shoved, also someone HAS to chase the Singed around in their base getting 0 gold or exp and applying 0 pressure until he dies all the while he gets double gold and exp while doing it. The down side to this was sometimes your team would just get pissed and tilt.
Very instructive video. Thanks Grubby and Alois for providing quality educational content
wow, getting to see two of my favorite league content creators together in 1 video
Premium content 🔥🔥🔥
I love Mac and his coaching but, his cocaching is WAY more efficient for players who already are pro or really high lvl, alois gonna help you to honning your understendings of the basics. FUNDAMENTALS GUYS, REMEMBER THE FUNDAMENTALS
Nice they did this guide for community. Two dutchies together talking English :)
Dang a lot of concepts covered in this video. You should also know that to freeze a wave, you need 4 enemy minions to be left to attack your next wave when your wave hits theirs. So their new wave plus those 4 minions will kill your wave and have 4 enemy minions left while keeping the wave in the same spot.
I might be wrong but I do believe minions are tethered to lanes in some way. They won't chase into river or jungle past a certain distance regardless of what you do. Like they have a prime directive of 'Walk on this line' and beneath that command is all their other interactions with enemy champions. But once their distance from that line passes a threshold they just revert to their prime directive. I'm actually curious if I have it wrong?
you're right. You cant pull a wave behind your tower like in dota, or draw a wave to another lane, or draw 2 waves from different lanes together in the jungle and farm them at the same time, or draw a lane to a jungle creep and farm them both with aoe (kinda possible with the golem camp tho).
it's crazy, i have been playing and watching this game for years, but didn't even know how exactly the minion aggro works, i just assumed if you hit enemy champs with anything you get aggro, and didn't pay much attention, honestly i still can't believe it, but that explain so much why certain champions are able to take such favorable trades.
Really enjoying this "playing & learning league" series! I was thinking, a lot of people say "wait to play ranked" since you usually end up low ranked if you do that. This advice makes sense for people who are non-streamers, I suppose, since they probably wouldn't want to be low ranked themselves and have to climb out.
However, I think it would be good, if not incredible content to see grubby jump into ranked games as soon as possible and get a rank. That way, you could see him incrementally improving with each concept he learns and tier climbed.
There would be so much funny and surprising content in these divisions really: the 1v1's/2v2 duels, the team fights and subsequent *team convos* etc. it writes itself really!
I also mention this because there's an old video explaining that in the blackmarket of selling league accounts the most expensive ones, even more than diamond ones, are those that are 'truly' iron rank (the lowest rank possible). I suppose it's because people do indeed "wait to play ranked" and thus never place into these divisions making them rarer. Also, I believe Riot does a pretty good job at detecting "smurf" accounts and quickly adjusting their MMR to shove them away.
Regardless, it'd still be cool content to see if Grubby can just visit these ranks before his inevitable climb out of them. I doubt Grubby would place in Iron after he reaches lvl 30 (there could be a small possibility rn as he is lol) but even bronze or silver, which the majority of ppl are in, would get peopled hooked like, "what!? Grubby in silver?!" clickbait type deals.
I'm just thinking out loud here but either way, hope you're having fun, Grubby!
Something to note is that just because ur lane can be over at 3 minutes doesn't mean the game is over, top is just one of 5 roles and even if you're losing other members of your team could be winning which can then later allow you to recover and come back into being strong and winning the game. Unless you're going 0/10 losing lane isn't cause to surrender as other members of you're team could be winning more than you're losing meaning your team is winning overall.
Of course, but you losing lane could be a determining factor to losing the game as well. Because when good players win lane, they try to snowball off those small leads and expand it further. So the gap between you and him keeps growing. Not set in stone, but thats what usually happens in high ranks (not something Grubby has to worry about right now). But in general sense you are right. There are a lot of variables in the game. Even Master players can often make mistakes that lose them a lane they were winning (dumb trades, forgot to track jgl, bad mid game macro etc)
I am in the happy spot with this collab
Is live game going up here or on alois' channel?
The live game got postponed because of some technical difficulties, super low FPS when Alois was watching. Look out for next week.
@@TheKillerAngel tyty
Turn on floating exp text to get a good feeling for exp range 👍
Amazing, as many other people mentioned, it would be great to see Bwipo teach you as well!
Y'all are both Dutch natives, right? Always wondered if there's a temptation to switch into Nederlands under those circumstances.
Have you given up on League? I know you play lots of games which is impressive but just curious because your League content has been fun.
So happy that it actually happened!
33min its not single target spell its a point and click spells and autos trigger it so Ryze E on a champ triggers it same with his W skill shots only if the have on hit aplly (like ezreal, gangplank or irelia Q )
chat box is ruthless
I wish they played a 1v1 for fun so Grubby sees what happens when you face a challenger ahahhahah
oooooooooooo the grubby playing league! With Alois!!!!
Oh yeah toplaners have the best tecnical knowledge and micro and macro and currency in the game, if u want to learn league in the most chad yet unforgiving lane then toplane is ur choice, bwipo is a good coach too, baussffs with the gold death xp and push style, minishcap1 covers proxy style, currency, cheese plays, adaptive itemization/ rune setup mentality macro and teamfights, these are all good tet fun channels to watch and learn best of toplane, keep away from rat player broken champs abusers(druttut..ect ect)
Hope he reads the comment
Nice to see that Grubby is following Noway4u a collab would be awesome!
Grubby is going ballz deep 😅
For anyone curious, the Discord streaming lagged so Alois was unable to do the live coaching game.
Next on Yt: Faker coaches Azir to his newest friend
Been waiting for this upload ever since the announcement, LESS GOO!!! THUNDER MAN TOES!!!
ah yes it's Mr. Fund The Mentos
There is only one coach Grubby needs to talk to, LS. Please collaborate with him
happy new year grubby
Saw Alois and insta-clicked, this should be fun!
I understood "mean" instead of "minion" 100% of the times he said it.
I have been observing your work for many years and I have an intuition that the ideal hero for you will be an unconventional character, especially Shaco. You will have a very hard time fighting against it and learning how to play it, but if you master it, it will give you the most potential to use. The properties of this character perfectly reflect your nickname Grubby ;) Good luck in your new challenges and I really hope that we will meet in a fight or in a team in LOL (EUW server). Greetings from Poland!
Next time: grubby X faker
Faker: first lets begin with the F keys…
@@angellopez5315 haha yeeaah I remind 😂
"open up Solitaire, CS, and Minesweeper"
FUNDAMENTOS GUY
nice this is what i suggested on your 2nd video 😁
Im learning a lot
Amazing
This was a great lesson, but I can't help but think that 40 games in, Grubby still needs more general knowledge, such as what items do, some simple timings, and awareness on ganks, etc.Personally, from watching the games, my one suggestion would be better map awareness by paying attention to the mini map more.
All point and click attacks draws agro.
Love this video! I like this much better than the previous "coaching"
Grubby presented so many high level concepts and asked so many good questions... I just wish Alois would go into that instead of ignoring everything he said and only talking about the level up timers. Watching the last coach and this one I'm actually surprised that people rise to the title of "coach" while being absolutely incapable of listening to what their students are saying and adapting their lessons instead of being a tape recorder.
FANTA MENTALS GRUBBY!
still hoping for trick2g and grubby collab. one middle aged man and one grandfather
My man played against SK Insomnia... c'mon now grubby
Yeah, it was abbreviated as "SK" even back then. Age really catching up to Grubby :😅
And yet they used the Schroet Kommando nomer in full, even if the tag was SK. They dropped its original meaning in public statements later on. I'm not wrong
Really wish Alois just shared his screen to you on discord instead of having you watch his twitch stream with the huge delay. Trying to keep up with what he was saying while the steam was 5 seconds behind was pretty annoying.
Aside from that though he gave good advice.
MORE WITH ALOIS! GREAT VIDEO!
Does dota not have wave management like this? i assumed it would be the same in dota
More ways to manipulate waves in dota from bodyblocking them to pulling camps and lasthitting them (or even dpsing them when they are below 50% hp to drastically change the wave dynamic), in league you have to be more indirect about it
There is, but the players have a direct role to it. Like AI aggro manip to change their positioning (you can manipulate the enemy creep by simply issuing an attack command on the enemy hero even without landing a hit as long as you are in their aggro range) and denying (basically last hitting your own creep to deny them gold and for them to gain lesser EXP if they're down to 40% HP I believe). The thing is that the hero with the higher base attack value and fast animation windup are advantageous. And with skills can't deny creeps, skill-based heroes are in disadvantage.
alois is the goat
give us some support coaching videos in League Of Legends o Great Grubby, i reach ancient in dota cause of you and now i want reach platinum in Support in league.
I think this type of content should be pushed more for when you already ranked and you're settled in a rank and you need extra things to go forward. That's just my opinion though. It seems like you're just starting the game and this guy is talking about how many minions each level requires to level up.
free choche lets go
You should only get coaching once you plateau.
alois should really get win11 and turn on dark mode for notepad
let's gooo
Why do dota players have to insert themselves into streams that have nothing to do with them and then instigate for no reason? It makes for an awful viewing experience, especially when theres nothing bad at all happening in the actual stream
DOTA is just for wannabe WC3 players that can't micro entire armies.
Insecurity
They're insecure because League is much more popular than Dota. Simple as that.
Yes, too bad you didn't start playing lol much earlier, you would be one of the best Europeans for sure.
OMg hahaha He got little pigggy fundamentals to coach him HAHAHAH COOOL!
jokes aside Fundamentals is really good and then go to mechanics
pretty scuffed but good info for u
for jungle, pls get dantes/doaenel to coach u bro plsss 😆😆
Wait I thought Immortal was the highest rank in Dota? But the base MMR for that is only like diamond/master equivalent? There must be an enormous skill gap across that tier
There is. Around 6k mmr is the minimal baseline for immortal. Max mmr right now is around 13k. There's a bigger mmr spread between bottom Immortal and top Immortal than between all the other ranks together. 0-6k = every other rank, 6k+ = Immortal.
@@Seikenguy how does the community feel about that? it seems a strange choice to me. i realize that the higher mmr's have a much smaller player base but that's why i think league does it well with more divisions up there. in fact in starcraft 2 the highest rank was literally the 500 best players that's it
@@TheJerbol well, I've played a lot of dota for the past 2 years, and personally I've never heard anyone complain about it. I think the big reason is in reality no one talks that much about ranks. People always talk about MMR when talking about skill. So like in LoL people say like "I'm Diamond" or "I'm Challenger" to tell how good (or bad) they are. In dota you'd say "I'm 4k mmr" or "I'm 10k mmr". This especially goes for Immortal, since there's such a huge difference in MMR for the bracket. There's also this thing where starting from a certain Immortal MMR you're gonna have little numbers alongside your rank, which can be in the thousands (not sure about this one), hundreds, tens and single digits. That basically shows if you're in the top hundreds of players, or top ten etc.
Personally, I prefer the MMR system. It always shows your exact MMR at all times. And honestly MMR is the only thing that matters. I think LoL's system of hidden MMR and different borders for ranks is actually not great. I came back to try LoL like a week ago, and I immediately got flamed and a guy ran down mid simply for me having a Silver border, even though since I matched with him, we have similar MMR.
You said there is no 'denying' minions in league, thats not necessarily true.
Proper wave manipulation is the method in which you deny opponent farm. Shoving or freezing a wave when your opponent 1)backs, 2)leaves(like to gank or help their jungle), or 3) dies will cause them to lose all the exp+gold (on top of wasting time in the event of a failed gank/fight)
The thing is that this concept also exists in dota, and in hots to an extent. In a way you are denying the creeps, yes, but is not a deny mechanic.
Ok, so over all it seems like you just have to be faster than your enemy in order to win.. got it
This lesson seems like it comes a few months too early for Grubby. More basic things would probably be more useful right now.
This is exactly what I thought about his Dota guides before too and I agree with it here in lol also
GRUBBY ILY
Day 4 of asking grubby to play warhammer wc3 mod more and try more races
Minion aggro on abilities is weird. Generally homing abilities and single/multiple target abilities draw minion aggro and aoe ones don't, but there is no general rule: the choice of whether an ability draws minion aggro is made mostly based on whether they can be used to poke reliably in early game.
But why? It's way too early to coach. Just play and learn basics, coaches are ok i guess when you have no idea how to get better at the game. Now you have free info from chat anyways.
Denying creeps by killing them doesn't add another layer of complexity imo. It gives you an easy way out in denying your opponent(s) farm.
In LoL, you're forced to be aggressive and creative to accomplish the same thing. So much so that wave management techniques, risk/reward and overall macro elements become much more important.
As a mainly LoL player I think it does add a bit of complexity, but I'd also say that denying is poor game mechanic in general. Ranged champions and strong early game champions will have much easier time denying creeps to enemy, which means that melee & weak early game champions will be even more behind due to missing not only gold but XP too. This leads to essentially every champion in Dota being carry or support champion. The reason it's bad though is even if you're winning you won't get to feel powerful half of the game purely because of the nature of the champion that you play. While in LoL if you're winning, you get to feel powerful whole game.
I only have played dota2 *very* briefly sometime ago, but Grubby makes it sound like there is no passive gold income, and he mentioned that if you die in dota you loose part of the gold you had stocked up, but if you then also deny the enemy their farm on top of that, makes me think one team could pretty much cut off the other team from resources entirely, once they got the snowball rolling hard enough.
@@AndriusChamentauskas That's true, but in return you have pulling and creep blocking as a secondary way to manage your lane state to at the very least get XP. The top and bottom lanes are also not symmetrical, which influences the places you send your carry position to more easily get gold. Most people don't get a lot of denies, but overall it helps maintain lane equilibrium so you can turbofarm.
giving players more agency doesn't necessarily make a game harder/more enjoyable to solve.
that's the major problem with these moba comparisons - when a game simple as chess already have a no human-reachable skill ceiling, what's the point of comparing the theoretical complexity?
Their is an opportunity cost to denying creeps as you potentially lose out on last hitting enemy creeps to gain gold/xp. It is very hard to balance both at once as enemy heros do the same. There is no way it doesnt add complexity as it is an extra layer of strategy to manage during laning phase, there are more variables going into the moment to moment 'calculus'. You can also still use aggressiveness and wave management techniques on top of denying, even more so considering the added ability to pull waves to other lanes or jungle camps to manage the push and pull of waves.
Whether added complexity is a good thing or not is another question entirely.