Thanks I appreciate that. Yeah I recorded a bunch and then scheduled them to post each day. It’s hard to find time to do these so if I can find a day to do a bunch, then upload them and schedule them it makes life easier.
Awesome upload Matt. I've run into power issues in the past at volumes above -10dB,both from amp clipping and speakers compressing. My current bed layer speakers are PSA MTM-210s that have a 98dB/1w/1m sensitivity, and with a seating distance of only 7-8ft, my current speakers are coasting on AVR power
that app is awesome. thanks for the recommendation. it looks like all 7 bed channels & 4 ceiling speakers are capable of hitting 105db reference in the atmos system before room gain. all besides the center channel which would theatrically hit 104.3db peak before room gain.
Great video. Good to hear about the calculation in real time. Can you add a link to the smart phone app you were discussing, to the main video description? I think it is PACalculate? If so, then it looks like my beloved Triad Bronze LCR are going to need 300 watts each, to reach reference level at my 9 foot seating distance. Ouch! That's more than they are rated for. I'd have to move up to the Triad Silver LCR and have a 200 watt per channel amp. What is not clear to me however is that these are 4 ohm rated speakers.....so I guess I should pay attention to the 4ohm output of the amps in question..... which makes it a little easier. Or maybe I am thinking about this wrong? Triad seems to think I should be able to reach reference level with the Bronze LCR at 9 feet according to their sizing guide. But I don't see how the math adds up.
I really liked this video, good info, cozy cadence, thought provoking. It makes me wonder if it would be clever to use external amplification on just the center channel, allowing for people to goose the dialogue without blowing themselves out the room. Imagine a system where a ton budget was put into a very nice class A or tube monoblock. Kind of a romantic sentiment in search of crystal clear vocals.
I honestly would question if it’s the level of system if that were true. I really don’t find 85dB voice level obnoxiously loud in any of my three systems. That would be loud for music with its lower crest factor and high compression. But not movies.
@@PoesAcoustics I’ll check when I watch a movie tonight. I just got a DB meter and have been checking it with music. Didn’t know that there was a difference. Good info, really appreciate the videos.
@@proprich5586 what did you find out? The phone db app seems pretty accurate and I'm done at 70, its too loud for me. I have a klh model 5 on a sony 7000 avr and no it is not clipping, its just to loud for me.
A well recorded multichannel concert video is an excellent tool to test for clipping. If applause is distorted and hurts one’s ears at the volume one normally watches movies, then the system is clipping. I did not realize my Anthem MRX-1120 was clipping until I tried amplifiers through the prepro section of the AVR. It was quite enlightening as the volume was not louder per se, but much clearer with headroom.
In general I’ve had a hard time identifying clipping until it’s not there. It’s unlikely anyone is driving their receiver into constant hard clipping. Instead it’s a bunch of momentary pieces. I am curious now to see if I could maybe create a clipped recording vs one that is not with the same amount of clipping as likely happens to receivers. Have people listen and report back on that vs a correct version.
Hi Matt, I thought you have very sensitive Gedlee speakers in your system? Can you talk about them? They seemed pretty revolutionary back then. Either way thank you for reasonable content.
I used to. I still own them. But I switched to Perlisten S series in walls for the new theater. The Gedlee are around 95dB sensitive at 2.83v/1m. The Perlisten are 92. Gedlee are very good speaker but the response isn’t quite as smooth or good as that of the Perlisten. It does have an even more consistent off axis response and a flatter DI.
No that isn’t as critical at all. The actual way to assess output Of the surrounds would be based on groups. So the Left, Center, and Right each must achieve 105dB, but the group of side surrounds, group of rear surrounds, and group of ceiling speakers need to achieve 105dB. In practice that’s 3dB in extra output for each doubling of speakers.
Very informative video, thank you! Still got a question, how much power should one have to power a speaker? Should you aim for an amp that meets the max speaker rating or the RMS or more? Still not sure how much power is too much. I understand too little is bad.
Hah my mic clip indicator didn’t show it clipping so I worried it wouldn’t work. But yeah that’s the sound of sustained clipping. Reality is brief clipping is much harder to hear. I have a theory that it may be more audible than we realize but it’s something you notice more once it’s gone. When it’s a normal part of the experience I think it tends to go undetected.
I always overpower speakers. My JBL Studio 590's are 250 watts at 6ohms. My Yamaha P3500S Pro-Audio amplifiers are 350w per channel at 8ohms and 450w at 4ohms. 1000w bridged mono at 8 ohms. 2000w at 4ohms. Plenty of juice with allot of headroom. I can crank those JBL's loud and clean! Those Yamaha's are extremely efficient for AB amplifiers. Fans are extremely quiet too. Awesome amps for their time. Powering the entire Studio 5 surround system with 4 of those amplifiers. Love em...
That’s generally a good idea. Within reason, too much power is unlikely to blow the speakers as a person is unlikely to turn it up that much. It’s not impossible and I’ve done it on purpose before. However for most people with good speakers, this helps assure they don’t clip. If you can’t but can set a limited, that is good too. The problem with limiters is that they can be very obvious.
@@PoesAcoustics I keep the gain at a reasonable level. As I've gotten older, (58) my tolerance for really loud music and sound has lessoned. So for me, 95-105 db is loud enough depending on the material. Jazz or easy listening a little lower. Which means at that level, I'm listening to loud and clean program material. Movie listening, I'm good to 85-90 db with 100-110 db peaks with bass. That sometimes is too loud unless I'm playing around. Loud enough to be happy and satisfied. My room is medium sized.
10:37 -20dB on AVR says nothing for the actual SPL in room, it depends on the sensitivity of the speakers. Say 85dB speaker would be on the half of the volume than 95 dB speaker. Reference level is 85dB SPL (+headroom) in room and it doesnt matter what your AVR indicates on display.
If the system is calibrated then it should. -20dB is dBFS or relative to full scale. If you calibrate the system correctly, then the sensitivity of the speaker it already accounted for.
That helps but you still need good amounts of power. How much depends on the sensitivity of the speaker. But most systems will need at least a solid 150 watts and many will need more than that. Myself and every colleague I am aware of design and implement our top systems with hundreds of watts. That’s because our collective experience has been the same. Without 3-4 dB of amp headroom, you will clip. Nothing ruins the experience more than hitting the limits of a component in your system during a movie.
Love this, Matt. Thank you. Question: is reference level the ability to achieve 105Db for each speaker in a surround set up? Also, what’s reference level for a subwoofer?
LFE Channel is 115dB peaks. But with the redirected bass from bass managed speakers, your subs could easily be near the 120dB range at Reference Level (depending on the content of course) add to that, that most people run their subs a few dB hot
I have an older pioneer receiver, which is okay for my needs, new av recivers I don't trust at all with their power rating at all, even with two channels driving
I do believe my 125 watt is NOT enough then for my perlisten. But I know this already, I am saving up to buy 2 XTZ A2-400 amps to drive my Perlisten LCR. (I would have gone to you to buy Perlisten but we live i different part of the world :))
I appreciate the sentiment. Yes I can’t sell outside of the USA. I believe those XTZ amps should be a hood upgrade. If they have implemented that module the way Trinnov, Legacy, and Marantz have, it should measure well and be a serious powerhouse. They typically put out over 500 watts into 4 ohms. We have seen over 700 watts bridged mono into 4 ohms.
I have a large 30ft x 40 ft theater room that isn’t very reflective. I’ve calibrated my Yamaha rxa 2080 to reference level. I usually listen at -20db, occasionally as high as -15, but anything louder is unbearable. I did listen for a short time at -10db. Reference level would be zero, can anyone actually listen at that level, much louder than my local cinemas.
That implies something else is wrong. While some cinemas not affiliated with Dolby or Imax may turn it down. Many theaters are locked out of the volume control and their cinemas are set to reference level at the time of comissioning. Meaning if your room sounds much louder than reference, it either is calibrated wrong or the speakers can’t handle that level. A distorting speaker could sound irritatingly loud. What are your speakers. That’s a very large room. Most speakers could not hit reference levels in such a large space. The other possible issue could be your source. Steaming content may be a bit louder than discs or Kscape. And all home content, as I recently found out, is actually monitored below 82dB and may be slightly louder due to cutting the peaks and raising the average loudness a bit. But if -10 is unbearably loud, I am inclined to look at something else. Either a mid calibration or the speakers.
@@PoesAcoustics my front left and right are Cerwin Vegas AT-15’s with a reported sensivity of 104 db and able to play really loud. Center is a Polk Csai-6.
I have 97db sensitive speakers and I sit really close to them 6ft because my room is only 10 x 10 and I don't like to turn my x4700h up past -10db because it really sounds like it's straining and not very clean also any higher than that, and I find to be painful (horns you know...) According to the calculator I'll hit 115db at 100w, but I think that's pretty optimistic.
What speakers are they? There are a few companies that makes claims about their sensitivity that are not totally accurate. Also a speakers sensitivity and power handling are supposed to tell you the max output, but in practice some speakers simply poop out long before that point.
@@PoesAcoustics Klipsch THX ultra2 7.2 system. I know about Klipsch fudging their numbers by 6db because of room gain, but I'm wondering because their THX certified if they'd have to be more honest about there sensitivity rating.
why is it measured with single speaker? in an action scene with 105db peaks, at least 3 speakers will be active.so why measure only 1 speaker to achieve reference levels?
Because that is the standard. It’s not 105dB of maximum level. Reference level requires that each speaker be capable of that. That’s how the standard works.
All of these rapid uploads recently have been great, Matt! I'm a delivery driver and I've been binging on them. Thank you for the effort it's taken!
Thanks I appreciate that. Yeah I recorded a bunch and then scheduled them to post each day. It’s hard to find time to do these so if I can find a day to do a bunch, then upload them and schedule them it makes life easier.
Another great video Matt, thanks! I’m enjoying this new format!
Thank you!
Awesome upload Matt. I've run into power issues in the past at volumes above -10dB,both from amp clipping and speakers compressing. My current bed layer speakers are PSA MTM-210s that have a 98dB/1w/1m sensitivity, and with a seating distance of only 7-8ft, my current speakers are coasting on AVR power
that app is awesome. thanks for the recommendation. it looks like all 7 bed channels & 4 ceiling speakers are capable of hitting 105db reference in the atmos system before room gain. all besides the center channel which would theatrically hit 104.3db peak before room gain.
Don't have Apple but found PA calculator for Android. Thanks for posting, cheers.
Great video. Good to hear about the calculation in real time.
Can you add a link to the smart phone app you were discussing, to the main video description? I think it is PACalculate?
If so, then it looks like my beloved Triad Bronze LCR are going to need 300 watts each, to reach reference level at my 9 foot seating distance. Ouch! That's more than they are rated for.
I'd have to move up to the Triad Silver LCR and have a 200 watt per channel amp.
What is not clear to me however is that these are 4 ohm rated speakers.....so I guess I should pay attention to the 4ohm output of the amps in question..... which makes it a little easier.
Or maybe I am thinking about this wrong? Triad seems to think I should be able to reach reference level with the Bronze LCR at 9 feet according to their sizing guide. But I don't see how the math adds up.
I really liked this video, good info, cozy cadence, thought provoking.
It makes me wonder if it would be clever to use external amplification on just the center channel, allowing for people to goose the dialogue without blowing themselves out the room.
Imagine a system where a ton budget was put into a very nice class A or tube monoblock. Kind of a romantic sentiment in search of crystal clear vocals.
Great content, really enjoying the videos. The 85db for dialogue was especially helpful. Not sure I can take that level for long though😮.
I honestly would question if it’s the level of system if that were true. I really don’t find 85dB voice level obnoxiously loud in any of my three systems. That would be loud for music with its lower crest factor and high compression. But not movies.
@@PoesAcoustics I’ll check when I watch a movie tonight. I just got a DB meter and have been checking it with music. Didn’t know that there was a difference. Good info, really appreciate the videos.
@@proprich5586 what did you find out? The phone db app seems pretty accurate and I'm done at 70, its too loud for me. I have a klh model 5 on a sony 7000 avr and no it is not clipping, its just to loud for me.
A well recorded multichannel concert video is an excellent tool to test for clipping. If applause is distorted and hurts one’s ears at the volume one normally watches movies, then the system is clipping. I did not realize my Anthem MRX-1120 was clipping until I tried amplifiers through the prepro section of the AVR. It was quite enlightening as the volume was not louder per se, but much clearer with headroom.
In general I’ve had a hard time identifying clipping until it’s not there. It’s unlikely anyone is driving their receiver into constant hard clipping. Instead it’s a bunch of momentary pieces.
I am curious now to see if I could maybe create a clipped recording vs one that is not with the same amount of clipping as likely happens to receivers. Have people listen and report back on that vs a correct version.
FYI PA calculate isn't compatible with newish phones, looking for an alternative
Hi Matt, I thought you have very sensitive Gedlee speakers in your system? Can you talk about them? They seemed pretty revolutionary back then. Either way thank you for reasonable content.
I used to. I still own them. But I switched to Perlisten S series in walls for the new theater.
The Gedlee are around 95dB sensitive at 2.83v/1m. The Perlisten are 92. Gedlee are very good speaker but the response isn’t quite as smooth or good as that of the Perlisten. It does have an even more consistent off axis response and a flatter DI.
Great video Matt. Should your main speakers and surrounds have similar sensitivity?
No that isn’t as critical at all. The actual way to assess output Of the surrounds would be based on groups. So the Left, Center, and Right each must achieve 105dB, but the group of side surrounds, group of rear surrounds, and group of ceiling speakers need to achieve 105dB. In practice that’s 3dB in extra output for each doubling of speakers.
Very informative video, thank you! Still got a question, how much power should one have to power a speaker? Should you aim for an amp that meets the max speaker rating or the RMS or more? Still not sure how much power is too much. I understand too little is bad.
So I need an amp if I’m running matin Logan prodigy’s on my pioneer lx 505?I get around 97db at -10 that I have seen so far.
Appreciate this video. What’s the best way to tell if your speakers are clipping? And then you demonstrated 🤣
Thanks as always 👌
Hah my mic clip indicator didn’t show it clipping so I worried it wouldn’t work. But yeah that’s the sound of sustained clipping. Reality is brief clipping is much harder to hear.
I have a theory that it may be more audible than we realize but it’s something you notice more once it’s gone. When it’s a normal part of the experience I think it tends to go undetected.
I always overpower speakers. My JBL Studio 590's are 250 watts at 6ohms. My Yamaha P3500S Pro-Audio amplifiers are 350w per channel at 8ohms and 450w at 4ohms. 1000w bridged mono at 8 ohms. 2000w at 4ohms. Plenty of juice with allot of headroom. I can crank those JBL's loud and clean! Those Yamaha's are extremely efficient for AB amplifiers. Fans are extremely quiet too. Awesome amps for their time. Powering the entire Studio 5 surround system with 4 of those amplifiers. Love em...
That’s generally a good idea. Within reason, too much power is unlikely to blow the speakers as a person is unlikely to turn it up that much. It’s not impossible and I’ve done it on purpose before. However for most people with good speakers, this helps assure they don’t clip.
If you can’t but can set a limited, that is good too. The problem with limiters is that they can be very obvious.
@@PoesAcoustics I keep the gain at a reasonable level. As I've gotten older, (58) my tolerance for really loud music and sound has lessoned. So for me, 95-105 db is loud enough depending on the material. Jazz or easy listening a little lower. Which means at that level, I'm listening to loud and clean program material. Movie listening, I'm good to 85-90 db with 100-110 db peaks with bass. That sometimes is too loud unless I'm playing around. Loud enough to be happy and satisfied. My room is medium sized.
10:37 -20dB on AVR says nothing for the actual SPL in room, it depends on the sensitivity of the speakers. Say 85dB speaker would be on the half of the volume than 95 dB speaker. Reference level is 85dB SPL (+headroom) in room and it doesnt matter what your AVR indicates on display.
If the system is calibrated then it should. -20dB is dBFS or relative to full scale. If you calibrate the system correctly, then the sensitivity of the speaker it already accounted for.
What if you are offloading the bass below 80 hz to active subwoofers?
That helps but you still need good amounts of power. How much depends on the sensitivity of the speaker. But most systems will need at least a solid 150 watts and many will need more than that. Myself and every colleague I am aware of design and implement our top systems with hundreds of watts. That’s because our collective experience has been the same. Without 3-4 dB of amp headroom, you will clip. Nothing ruins the experience more than hitting the limits of a component in your system during a movie.
Love this, Matt. Thank you. Question: is reference level the ability to achieve 105Db for each speaker in a surround set up? Also, what’s reference level for a subwoofer?
LFE Channel is 115dB peaks. But with the redirected bass from bass managed speakers, your subs could easily be near the 120dB range at Reference Level (depending on the content of course) add to that, that most people run their subs a few dB hot
I have an older pioneer receiver, which is okay for my needs, new av recivers I don't trust at all with their power rating at all, even with two channels driving
I do believe my 125 watt is NOT enough then for my perlisten. But I know this already, I am saving up to buy 2 XTZ A2-400 amps to drive my Perlisten LCR. (I would have gone to you to buy Perlisten but we live i different part of the world :))
I appreciate the sentiment. Yes I can’t sell outside of the USA.
I believe those XTZ amps should be a hood upgrade. If they have implemented that module the way Trinnov, Legacy, and Marantz have, it should measure well and be a serious powerhouse. They typically put out over 500 watts into 4 ohms. We have seen over 700 watts bridged mono into 4 ohms.
I have a large 30ft x 40 ft theater room that isn’t very reflective. I’ve calibrated my Yamaha rxa 2080 to reference level. I usually listen at -20db, occasionally as high as -15, but anything louder is unbearable. I did listen for a short time at -10db. Reference level would be zero, can anyone actually listen at that level, much louder than my local cinemas.
That implies something else is wrong. While some cinemas not affiliated with Dolby or Imax may turn it down. Many theaters are locked out of the volume control and their cinemas are set to reference level at the time of comissioning. Meaning if your room sounds much louder than reference, it either is calibrated wrong or the speakers can’t handle that level. A distorting speaker could sound irritatingly loud.
What are your speakers. That’s a very large room. Most speakers could not hit reference levels in such a large space.
The other possible issue could be your source. Steaming content may be a bit louder than discs or Kscape. And all home content, as I recently found out, is actually monitored below 82dB and may be slightly louder due to cutting the peaks and raising the average loudness a bit.
But if -10 is unbearably loud, I am inclined to look at something else. Either a mid calibration or the speakers.
@@PoesAcoustics my front left and right are Cerwin Vegas AT-15’s with a reported sensivity of 104 db and able to play really loud. Center is a Polk Csai-6.
I have 97db sensitive speakers and I sit really close to them 6ft because my room is only 10 x 10 and I don't like to turn my x4700h up past -10db because it really sounds like it's straining and not very clean also any higher than that, and I find to be painful (horns you know...) According to the calculator I'll hit 115db at 100w, but I think that's pretty optimistic.
What speakers are they? There are a few companies that makes claims about their sensitivity that are not totally accurate.
Also a speakers sensitivity and power handling are supposed to tell you the max output, but in practice some speakers simply poop out long before that point.
@@PoesAcoustics Klipsch THX ultra2 7.2 system. I know about Klipsch fudging their numbers by 6db because of room gain, but I'm wondering because their THX certified if they'd have to be more honest about there sensitivity rating.
why is it measured with single speaker? in an action scene with 105db peaks, at least 3 speakers will be active.so why measure only 1 speaker to achieve reference levels?
Because that is the standard. It’s not 105dB of maximum level. Reference level requires that each speaker be capable of that. That’s how the standard works.
@@PoesAcoustics so it would be 110db + when all the speakers are active during an action scene.
@@chandan6119 how often would all the speakers be sent the same signal at the same time?
@@jamiet74 atleast lcr will have same the content during an action scene