The #1 thing that I've learned from contracts (and suing) is: A contract is a document for a *dis*agreement, not an agreement! The termination clauses are *the most important*. When you're friendly and everything is going fine, the sides often don't look at the contract. When anyone wants to terminate, everyone looks at the contract. Spell out the termination clauses. Spell out what counts as "for cause" and what doesn't. Spell out who gets what when party A terminates. Spell out who gets what when party B terminates. Since you're talking about termination, you're also able to use social leverage since you're saying, "You're telling us you're not going to terminate so, since this won't matter for you anyway, we'll get the rights/paid/etc. if you do"
Thank you for covering this topic. As publishers have conventionally been in the more powerful position in negotiations I can imagine that reliable information on the subject can be difficult to find, being trade secrets and all that.
Can we please have ten million more episodes about contracts and working relationships with publishers? Thanks Tim! 😊 (A few less than that would be ok too)
Incredibly eye opening, and a lot of it makes sense I can see many indies walking blindly into those traps thinking that the publisher is doing them a favour by picking them up. You may well have saved more than a few future Indies with this video.
There's only one quote that comes to mind when watching stuff like this: "It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life." -Mickey Mantle Thank you Tim!
This is a great perspective but from both an older view of how the industry was and/or the AA/AAA gaming industry at it's current state. Not sure if Tim is even aware of the predatory nature of these publishers when it comes to indie games. I can tell you first hand that the scale tipped where publishers take almost none of the risk and devs are essentially on the hook for most of the cost. The reason why indie devs commit to these publishers because they don't possess access to leads marketing insight. Localization and marketing are normally a split cost between both the publisher and dev where devs receive a lower percent of the sales (e.g. 30-70) till their cut of that is covered and most no longer "pay" devs as Tim suggested. They simply scour the indie scene for games almost completed and swoop in. Basically, you do all the work and forgo a large chunk of your hard work to a publisher because they have a mailing list.
As someone, who was on publishing side and because often part of QA evaluation was based on definitions in contracts, I would add to be really careful about Milestone deliveries (what each milestone is contractually obliged to contain) and how is gateway process contractually defined (general rules for milestone deliveries and milestone contents from pre-production to release and post release other than specifically stated in each milestone delivery). Because you can fully fulfil your XY milestone delivery specifics but still fail due to gateway process. Or you can release game but still be contractually obligated to do day90 or day160 or year2 patch/update, etc. (even if you are not working on the game anymore and even if you have zero income from those) Often they are contractually defined why ahead of release and are still valid even when some (or most) of the parts of design changed.
I'm wondering to what degree - if at all - digital distribution actually resulted in a (sigficant / meaningful) change of percentage of revenue the game developer gets ? PS: Not concerning the 'game stores cuts' (i.e. Steam or alike), but the scenario where a publishers still finances the development ?
In the past youve spoken on emergent gameplay but how do you feel about games with a focus on emergent story telling? The games that focus on this tend to be colony sim type games like rimworld or dwarf fortress where you arent a character, but the community. I find these games have a lot of your design principles in them. Notably, reaction and consequence. However they also implement other aspects you enjoy such as the flaw system, characters in these games tend to come with a prebaked personality, sometimes with flaws such as arsonist that you have to manage. But also can gain flaws through action such as losing limbs or gaining phobias. Not to mention they interact with eachother and can form relationships, negative or positive with the other colonists. Have you played any of these sorts of games? And while it would be hard with current tech to make an rpg focused on such gameplay, the closest i can think of is Kenshi, do you see this as a potential future subgenre of rpgs?
The only reason I'd consider a publisher is console ports. Things have become so complex and locked-down that without a publisher on good terms with console first-parties, you can kiss cross-platform release goodbye. (This has had the side-effect that you can't really use even a slightly obscure engine if you ever want it ported (not to say anything of hand-rolled code!) but that's not an issue to most people I imagine)
Good morning Tim, you once made a video in which you shared how you fleshed out a setting in detail, from the time period to the wildlife etc. and I can’t seem to find it again for my life.. you wouldn’t happen to remember the title of that video would you..?
I had never heard of the right of last refusal. Have any of the projects that you worked on had such a clause and if so, was it ever invoked? Thanks for teach this old dog something new today!
A lot of indies go without a publisher these days, and it's not hard to see why. Platforms like Steam handle most of the logistics, so you only need to bring your product and i believe a $100 hosting fee. The downside, of course, is it's all your own money, and you've got no legal protection. I'll probably be forced to self-publish for my first game, but after that it depends on how favorable of a contract i can negotiate.
Thor did a fantastic stream(~45min) about making an indie game, where among other things, he covers what it's like to do that. Still my go-to when people say they aren't good enough to make a game. th-cam.com/video/aMc-GKv5olA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ly5lqhoAE3n-TmFW
timothy cain i am a long time watcher with my first question: if i want to explore an existing IP with my own spin on it, ie the first person rpg of a fixed 45 degree mobile game, how would i pitch that to the owners of the IP?
You almost certainly wouldn't. Sorry, but people dont really pay someone else to have ideas for their own IP. Even if you did find a way, if they liked it, they would just do it themselves.
Great video! Quick question, when designing a level or boss how do you consider something that is mechanically intensive? An example would be something like a final boss of a fighting game.
You should probably stipulate in the video description that these do's and don'ts are purely informational and do not constitute legal advice in contract negotiations 😉
Mmm. Learend more from failure then success? So that is why CEO's and everything below that seems to fall backwards for promotion! Got it! Clearly somone with fumbles the ball and sacirifces everything to get a promotion (mostly others and not making sacrifices themslevs exept moral ones.) are the best investment when picking a CEO! Golden parachutes are charity spreading talen troughout the industry. Why have no one told the masses how cariful they are? Unity getting a EA CEO or whatever was exactly what Unity needed! Jokes aside. I would not want to be a good lawyer. Good CEO. Good stock trader etc, etc. Since 'good' seems to not meant what it actually should be. And it dose not matter in what part of the world of what year it is. You can never be a good lawyer or King/Leader of anything. Not for very long anyways. You can keep power until you become the darkness. Or you are kicked out and lose to somone that have no problem with being evil/corrut or simply wrong. Who decides what is wrong and right anyways? I can not become a docktor. Yet have no problem with gore in games and eat meat like most people do. It is funny how a doctor/healer whatever the tittle/role is. You can actually be a good doctor without having to figure out if stock prices or Kings would call you a good doctor. Unless your a ambulance personal, delivering the dying King to the hostbiltal. Because then after the fact you would be looked over with insane scrutiny if you did your job right. Being questioned if you should be hanged for what otherwise would be nothing diffrent then a ordinary Thursday... Questioned if your a good doctor. Horrible way to treath anyone like that.
What if I'd do a project which is, let's say, politically incorrect, or "not DEI conform" to say mildly. Wouldn't it be a problem to be beholden to a publisher that seeks to make the game "non-offensive" to customers, the "modern audiences"? I assume the consequence, aside from outright rejection, would be that the publisher would demand various changes. And once I am willing to change that, they'd realize that I am willing to turn on my own convictions, meaning there is probably very little I would refuse to change for money as they perceive mental weakness or even desperation.
The #1 thing that I've learned from contracts (and suing) is:
A contract is a document for a *dis*agreement, not an agreement!
The termination clauses are *the most important*.
When you're friendly and everything is going fine, the sides often don't look at the contract.
When anyone wants to terminate, everyone looks at the contract.
Spell out the termination clauses.
Spell out what counts as "for cause" and what doesn't.
Spell out who gets what when party A terminates.
Spell out who gets what when party B terminates.
Since you're talking about termination, you're also able to use social leverage since you're saying,
"You're telling us you're not going to terminate so, since this won't matter for you anyway, we'll get the rights/paid/etc. if you do"
I love the incredible specificity of this information. One of those things that only come from hard-won experience.
Thank you!
>publisher contracts
>angriest face by tim in the thumbnail
Thank you for covering this topic. As publishers have conventionally been in the more powerful position in negotiations I can imagine that reliable information on the subject can be difficult to find, being trade secrets and all that.
Can we please have ten million more episodes about contracts and working relationships with publishers?
Thanks Tim! 😊
(A few less than that would be ok too)
There's another business video tomorrow!
@@CainOnGamesThanks! 😊 Looking forward to it!
Man, this video really changed my perspective on the gaming industry.
Thanks, Tim.
Thank you too!
Thank you once again -- this is exactly the kind of hugely helpful practical advice that could *only* come from the wisdom of first-hand experience.
I had a really rough day and got in a car accident and I see this upload and immediately something within me just lights up. Thank you, Tim
Incredibly eye opening, and a lot of it makes sense I can see many indies walking blindly into those traps thinking that the publisher is doing them a favour by picking them up. You may well have saved more than a few future Indies with this video.
Hi Tim! Do you think you could do a video about licensing? I'm curious about how the process works for music, IPs etc.
You got a weird community here.
Thanks for continuing!
There's only one quote that comes to mind when watching stuff like this:
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life." -Mickey Mantle
Thank you Tim!
Thank you! This is the content I need the most!
Thanks Tim, love the business side of information
You really need a fan base name, shoutout the Tim Cainers
That point about penalty clauses, to counter the penalty clauses you'll be under and other such things... really good.
This is a great perspective but from both an older view of how the industry was and/or the AA/AAA gaming industry at it's current state. Not sure if Tim is even aware of the predatory nature of these publishers when it comes to indie games. I can tell you first hand that the scale tipped where publishers take almost none of the risk and devs are essentially on the hook for most of the cost. The reason why indie devs commit to these publishers because they don't possess access to leads marketing insight. Localization and marketing are normally a split cost between both the publisher and dev where devs receive a lower percent of the sales (e.g. 30-70) till their cut of that is covered and most no longer "pay" devs as Tim suggested. They simply scour the indie scene for games almost completed and swoop in. Basically, you do all the work and forgo a large chunk of your hard work to a publisher because they have a mailing list.
As someone, who was on publishing side and because often part of QA evaluation was based on definitions in contracts, I would add to be really careful about Milestone deliveries (what each milestone is contractually obliged to contain) and how is gateway process contractually defined (general rules for milestone deliveries and milestone contents from pre-production to release and post release other than specifically stated in each milestone delivery). Because you can fully fulfil your XY milestone delivery specifics but still fail due to gateway process.
Or you can release game but still be contractually obligated to do day90 or day160 or year2 patch/update, etc. (even if you are not working on the game anymore and even if you have zero income from those)
Often they are contractually defined why ahead of release and are still valid even when some (or most) of the parts of design changed.
great video, good info
Excellent advice. Thanks Tim!
It's so sad to see games unvisited for 20+ years because the rights are tied to some dead publisher or whoever bought them up.
You are awesome, Tim!
I'm wondering to what degree - if at all - digital distribution actually resulted in a (sigficant / meaningful) change of percentage of revenue the game developer gets ? PS: Not concerning the 'game stores cuts' (i.e. Steam or alike), but the scenario where a publishers still finances the development ?
Thank you, great video.
In the past youve spoken on emergent gameplay but how do you feel about games with a focus on emergent story telling?
The games that focus on this tend to be colony sim type games like rimworld or dwarf fortress where you arent a character, but the community. I find these games have a lot of your design principles in them. Notably, reaction and consequence. However they also implement other aspects you enjoy such as the flaw system, characters in these games tend to come with a prebaked personality, sometimes with flaws such as arsonist that you have to manage. But also can gain flaws through action such as losing limbs or gaining phobias. Not to mention they interact with eachother and can form relationships, negative or positive with the other colonists.
Have you played any of these sorts of games? And while it would be hard with current tech to make an rpg focused on such gameplay, the closest i can think of is Kenshi, do you see this as a potential future subgenre of rpgs?
I second that!
Very interesting
The only reason I'd consider a publisher is console ports. Things have become so complex and locked-down that without a publisher on good terms with console first-parties, you can kiss cross-platform release goodbye. (This has had the side-effect that you can't really use even a slightly obscure engine if you ever want it ported (not to say anything of hand-rolled code!) but that's not an issue to most people I imagine)
Good morning Tim, you once made a video in which you shared how you fleshed out a setting in detail, from the time period to the wildlife etc. and I can’t seem to find it again for my life.. you wouldn’t happen to remember the title of that video would you..?
I think it was this one: th-cam.com/video/Lm0qhfquv74/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames Thank you Tim, that’s the one! I really appreciate it!
I had never heard of the right of last refusal. Have any of the projects that you worked on had such a clause and if so, was it ever invoked? Thanks for teach this old dog something new today!
No, we had an experienced lawyer who steered us away from those contracts
Hi Tim it's me, everyone. How to take notes effectively?
A lot of indies go without a publisher these days, and it's not hard to see why. Platforms like Steam handle most of the logistics, so you only need to bring your product and i believe a $100 hosting fee.
The downside, of course, is it's all your own money, and you've got no legal protection.
I'll probably be forced to self-publish for my first game, but after that it depends on how favorable of a contract i can negotiate.
Thor did a fantastic stream(~45min) about making an indie game, where among other things, he covers what it's like to do that. Still my go-to when people say they aren't good enough to make a game.
th-cam.com/video/aMc-GKv5olA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ly5lqhoAE3n-TmFW
Hi Tim, what was the typical range for royalties based on your experience?
Royalties, rates, and when/how they kick in are things I definitely want to hear about too!
timothy cain i am a long time watcher with my first question: if i want to explore an existing IP with my own spin on it, ie the first person rpg of a fixed 45 degree mobile game, how would i pitch that to the owners of the IP?
You almost certainly wouldn't. Sorry, but people dont really pay someone else to have ideas for their own IP.
Even if you did find a way, if they liked it, they would just do it themselves.
The thumbnail says it all lol
The keyword here is "business partners" 💯
Great video! Quick question, when designing a level or boss how do you consider something that is mechanically intensive? An example would be something like a final boss of a fighting game.
Tim: Developers aren't your enemy they're your partner
Me: But I'm polyamorous
*ba dum tss*
You should probably stipulate in the video description that these do's and don'ts are purely informational and do not constitute legal advice in contract negotiations 😉
GREETINGS
Mmm. Learend more from failure then success? So that is why CEO's and everything below that seems to fall backwards for promotion! Got it! Clearly somone with fumbles the ball and sacirifces everything to get a promotion (mostly others and not making sacrifices themslevs exept moral ones.) are the best investment when picking a CEO! Golden parachutes are charity spreading talen troughout the industry. Why have no one told the masses how cariful they are? Unity getting a EA CEO or whatever was exactly what Unity needed!
Jokes aside. I would not want to be a good lawyer. Good CEO. Good stock trader etc, etc. Since 'good' seems to not meant what it actually should be. And it dose not matter in what part of the world of what year it is. You can never be a good lawyer or King/Leader of anything. Not for very long anyways. You can keep power until you become the darkness. Or you are kicked out and lose to somone that have no problem with being evil/corrut or simply wrong. Who decides what is wrong and right anyways?
I can not become a docktor. Yet have no problem with gore in games and eat meat like most people do. It is funny how a doctor/healer whatever the tittle/role is. You can actually be a good doctor without having to figure out if stock prices or Kings would call you a good doctor. Unless your a ambulance personal, delivering the dying King to the hostbiltal. Because then after the fact you would be looked over with insane scrutiny if you did your job right. Being questioned if you should be hanged for what otherwise would be nothing diffrent then a ordinary Thursday... Questioned if your a good doctor. Horrible way to treath anyone like that.
Have you lost a little weight Tim? Either way you’re Looking good
Nah he's gained weight
What if I'd do a project which is, let's say, politically incorrect, or "not DEI conform" to say mildly. Wouldn't it be a problem to be beholden to a publisher that seeks to make the game "non-offensive" to customers, the "modern audiences"? I assume the consequence, aside from outright rejection, would be that the publisher would demand various changes. And once I am willing to change that, they'd realize that I am willing to turn on my own convictions, meaning there is probably very little I would refuse to change for money as they perceive mental weakness or even desperation.
There used to be people in USSR that rejected art that didn't conform to the regime.
Making such art could land you in jail.
bruh are you you culture war freaks everywhere? nobody here cares about your bs culture war
@@bezceljudzelzceljsh5799 well thank god that hasn't happened in a long time
@@chaserseven2886 Aren't Russian people protesting war thrown in jail?
WDYM hasn't happened in a long time?
@@bezceljudzelzceljsh5799 protesting isn't an art tho and you were talking about art