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- After the Dance: Conversations on Michael Jackson's Black America
Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture
June 5, 2010
Panel: To Be White, Gifted and Black: Managing Acceptable Representations of Blackness as the "King of Pop"
DJ Qool Marv, Arthur Jafa, dj lynnee denise, Esther Armah
![[Live] : ONE 168 วันนี้!! "โจนาธาน vs ซุปเปอร์เล็ก"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0jIN65KgJsI/mqdefault.jpg)
Michael Jackson was the first artist to write a love song about an African female love interest: Liberian Girl.
Everything about MJ was strategic.
A lot of people don't realize that most of the controversial things that michael did was a survival tactic for him which all stems from his childhood. We are who we are because of our childhoods. I mean its the most crucial part of our lives. So if your constantly told by your father that your ugly and your nose is big and your too black. The same father that doesn't give you any aamount of love and affection or doesn't even let you call him dad.
Are you kidding me? Paul McCartney was offered the Beatles catalogue by the seller(an Australian millionaire) FIRST. Only when he refused to buy it, did Michael buy it. There's a video here on TH-cam where the sellers attorney says precisely that. MJ didn't "outbid" Paul for it. MJ wasn't even ALLOWED to bid for it till Paul refused. No one was. Paul had first dibs.
Thanks for that little glimmer of insight.
So what. Paul dropped the ball and Michael picked it up. That’s how you score big.
@@azucarmorena5000 the story is told as Micheal outbiding Paul for it.
Just a bunch of men gossiping about the the cool kid. Nothing but grapevine rumors colored by their own personality, prejudices, jealousies, ignorance and perceptions of the world. "You see the world as you are". So true in how people see Michael Jackson, you can tell what kind of people they are.
+globalcitizenn
*Yep ... EXACTLY!! One of the best, most truthful comments (Long or short) I have ever read across the Internet. I just left a comment on the first video I came across from this bunch, and not going to even listen the rest of this and the others. Part of my post near the end, basically summed up what you said. Good on you!*
globalcitizenn yes....100 percent true
EXACTLY!!! U PUT IT PERFECTLY...
Lol nah you just understand cultural critique
The only person who expressed what I believed about MJ. He knew that in order on conquer, he needed to seem softer than he was.
MJ did not "pose those kids". He just wanted to be a father and he was a great father to them, that's all that matters. I couldn't care less if what he said of their biological origin was true or not. It's none of our business anyway. Had he said nothing about that, that would not have stopped the speculations by nosy people like you. He was damned if he said something, damned if he didn't. I think you are projecting a lot of your own issues with race onto MJ.
So michael had to use creams to even it out so he wouldnt look like a dalmation. So michaels changing appearance was a survival tactic for him. And maybe it got out of hand but that doesn't make him a terrible person. He's human and we all got issues.
Why do you think it got out of hand??? The white took over....plain and simple...he adjusted to it...Still Michael...
i love to hear arthur speak. i was thrilled to hear his perception on mj's strategic choices. that is exactly how i perceived mj's innovative moves. thank you for sharing.
Michael was bound to have some problems with his appearance. If you also mix that with being a perfectionist and having and addictive personality something is bound to go wrong. Also michael had a lot of health problems that affected his appearance.
He had really bad acne which made him really insecure. He couldn't even look in the mirror he had to wash his face in the dark. He also had lupus which caused him to develop vitiligo which destroys skin pigmentation.
Then why does he look like a black young man in his early tapes of him dancing and singing in the early years with the J5?
And why do you feel it's your business to know all about how MJ's children were fathered? It's only his and his children's business. The pathology of having our nose in everything that is not our business is at least as interesting as this panel...
@scorpionJB MJ was still brown when Bad came out. I think you are a victim of revisionist history. Bad had 5 # 1's on the Billboard Hot 100. but the 6th #1 was on the R&B chart. That means driven by black people all the way to number one. So the data does not corroborate your memories.
Some people are missing the point as far as what he’s actually saying. He may not be stating actual facts in terms of accuracy but if you listen to his points he’s making valid statements. No way shape or form is he even dissing MJ
@scorpionJB I've been a fan for 40 years. I'm not a victim of revisionist history because I saw it as it unfolded. MJ is brown in the Bad video and I didn't call anyone complaining about his looks when I saw that video. He was GORGEOUS and don't even get me started on Dirty Diana. a for comparing Bad to Thriller, you realize NO OTHER ALBUM IN HISTORY SOLD ANYWHERE NEAR THRILLER, right? But Bad held the title of 2nd largest selling album in history for awhile. Dangerous sold more than Bad.
@scorpionJB The cover of MJ's last album, Michael is his older face just turned brown. He looks just like Thriller era. I've actually studied his face for myself, not let someone else tell me how "radically" it changed. I call BS on that because I trust my own eyes. Also looking at video footage of his face from award shows proves for me that there was no radical change between Thriller and Bad. Just look at Grammys AMA's etc., instead of those dumb morphing vids.
Jeen-yuhs
Preach, AJ, preach!
Brilliant insights. Thanks for posting this.
Did he really try to paint him as a shapeshifter and really think, that it is a compliment for someone who was accused of child molestation multiple times?
@dirratt no disrespect, because I don't want to get into an argument, we have a different set of opinion and that's just the reality.....the situation is what it is...and things could have been more rewarding for a much longer period of time than it actually was......let's just conclude that michael accomplished allot of amazing feats and that would be no dispute.
@scorpionJB I have to disagree with your comment in terms of his decline. When thriller became the biggest selling album in 1984 with 20 million records sold the majority of those sales came from whites and people who just bought the album because it was the hip thing to do. But when bad came around that's when the bandWagon fans jumped off the ship after 4 yrs. I believe the real fans are the ones who bought Off the wall, Bad and Dangerous because they all sold about 8 million copies equally.
@dirratt I'm not referring to the allegations, the first allegations happened in 1993...I'm talking about the years of BAD, 1987-1989.....I was 16,17,18 years old and there was tons of black people who felt alienated by his appearance and choices he was making and no longer wanted to buy his albums.....that's fact, because I heard it almost every single day, and this is what I'm referring to that his younger fanbase is not aware of because of the manner the situation has been presented to them
@scorpionJB Anyway, you are wasting your time trying to convert me to your mindset. I have a perfectly good, fully functional brain of my own. IMO what people think of MJ tells me more about them than him. There is a whole lot of pathology on display on the panel and it's not Michael Jackson's.
@scorpionJB But you said his decline was because he lost the majority of his Black fanbase did you not?
@AnaisKarim I believe his current fanbase need truth history......Michael jackson was virtually unrecognizable when Bad video premiered on CBS in 1987....every distinguishable facial feature (including his skin color) that would indicate he was black was gone..millions of those who represented his original following called to radio stations across the land were distraught and shocked as to how he looked and how he was able to do that....he looked nothing like his natural being at all
man this is deep
love it love you mj
@AnaisKarim and because of that reality, Michael was not even viewed as an american recording artist, he was strictly viewed as an international artist, and to boost sales of DANGEROUS in america, he sought to give an interview with OPRAH...he would have never given an interview if his career met his expectations..the transformation offended millions of people, particularly black people, and this is why his album sales (when it truly counted) declined w/each subsequent album
RIGHT ON!!!
michael jackson's career decline is really about one thing, he lost the tremendous support from black folk who constituted the majority of this fanbase from 1969-1984....when he altered his features to eradicate any trace of african american/black heritage/lineage, along w/changing his skin color, Bad sold 20 million copies less than Thriller, 20 million decline in sales, drastic, and his career in the united states was never the same at that point, that's what it all comes down to
100% agreed. I have been saying that all along.
@@liyaberi absolutely. There is an excellent book the delves into the root of everything pertaining to the root cause of MJs decline and the state of music as a whole
@@scorpionJB if you have the book, please post it, I'd like to read it.
@AnaisKarim that man's complexion was not brown during Invincible and you know it....he looks nothing like he did when he was younger...this man destroyed his face w/plastic surgery/cosmetic alterations. the real pathology is that his current following doesn't want to admit the truth, and the real culprit is an expectation and demand placed on him thru based on a false sense of entitlement to denounce who he was along w/his culture, which led to his self destruction
I think the people who are disagreeing are either too young to remember, weren't born then, white, or completely in denial. Every point you're making is 100% accurate!
@@liyaberi no doubt about it....the book explains everything in stark detail and delves into the root of why everything transpired the way it did
I agree totally.....
great!
@dirratt I never said that black people were the only ones who bought THRILLER...I've never suggested that even when the album was actually out... I just viewed your profile, and according to it, you're 22 years old, meaning, if you're 22, you wasn't born when THRILLER existed, or even when BAD was released back in 1987...and when THRILLER debuted, it was receiving airplay on black radio first and then when pop radio (top 40) saw it's "potential", that's when they started supporting it.
@dirratt I never said we abandoned michael.......what happened to michael over time cannot be associated with black people...
Insightful!!Now the (Harlem Ensemble)video is working ...SMH
Have an extraordinary week!
@AnaisKarim he fathered neither one of those kids.....it's mindboggling that people believe this
@AnaisKarim I see you didn't want to answer the question about those 3 kids....Michael jackson didn't father either one of those kids, and it's an insult for him to assume people would believe him....those two oldest kids are white, the youngest child carries a hispanic origin....this is why the public grew cynical about his explanations....
@AnaisKarim this aint no tabloid junkie right here.....after michael's record sale no longer met his expectation, he began the process of pitting his following against the media..I never needed the media to shape my views...because the media doesn't recognize the real reason for his career decline, and because of the path he chose to take, it caused a myriad of problems that took down a entertainer of his stature...it never should have came down to this..everyone loses out in the end
@dirratt I'm not referring to whether or not we believed if the allegations were true, I'm talking about no longer choosing to buy his records.....the support was lost 5 years before the 93 allegations occured......but as I say, all we have to do is listen to this very clip above and we can reach our own conclusions.......I'm out
@AnaisKarim His looked so distinguishably different than he had in the past, I thought it was somebody else in that video, I thought it was a different person...yeah, Bad charted 5 #1 singles, but they only maintained that status briefly before descending down the ranks, black radio played the songs only because of the relationship with his past, but BAD sold 20 million copies less than its predecessor..His complexion was noticeably paler and that's why millions were appalled
WHY are you so concerned with criticisms about what is black and judging artists? Great articulations-with all opinions-sounding like musicians trying to outdo each other in sounds that only pleases the minds,and not the heart...............................
quite to the contrary...it's MICHAEL JACKSON who made it his business to pose those 3 kids to the world as his...nobody made him introduced that youngest kid to the world at a sigmund and freud circus...nobody made him say he didn't know who the mother of that youngest kid and 30 seconds later say the mother was black.....HE made race an issue...but the recording industry w/in the establishment is to blame as they convinced him moving beyond his blackness would bring even greater success
His kids are Bi...you can say all you want they are white....but the facts prove you wrong...again...i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab13/MJMedia09/Prince%20Michael%20and%20Samuel%20Jackson_zps1l2t1dnh.jpg
Michael's Family....Black, White and Indian....
Carolyn Bailey Stop it please.
@AnaisKarim I never needed the media to see things for what they are, the commercial media didn't latch onto Mike until after Thriller, the commercial media along w/his evolving fanbase from the late 80s to the present are born out of the same realm, vitiligo has nothing to do w/changing every distinguishable facial feature that indicates your true identity, and that's what's so said about all of this, people choose to believe in the lie about vitiligo
@AnaisKarim when this man was going back and forth to his doctor during the rehearsals for his concert..it was revealed, his face had virtually collapsed on him, his jawline was wrecked due to bone reconstruction he underwent beginning in the mid/late 80s, his nose had deteriorated, this is from years and decades of extreme procedures that his body could no longer tolerate...those are the facts, all because he no longer want to be viewed as black after reaching his career pinnacle
Preach!
@dirratt Well you said his decline was because he lost the tremendous support fo blacks.
@scorpionJB Well I can't find the video that you are talking about but another persons opinion does not really matter to me. I know for a fact that whites purchased the Thriller album along with others which led to the album selling 20 million in the U.S.. It was not just the black community considering that all of the jacksons albums(bought mostly by blacks) never sold more than 3 million copies, the highest album sale prior to thriller was off the wall which sold 5 million in it's heyday.
This Jafa don't know what he's talking about.
I think Elvis was real, nobody invented him. And he probably became a singer because he liked singing.
again...he's the one who initiated that documentary with Martin Bashir...he's the one who sold pictures of that first kid to life Magazine in the late 90s.....he's the guy who brought attention to himself....he's the one who said he didn't know who the mother was than a half minute later said she was black knowing good and well she wasn't..he projected issues unto himself, especially the fact he became indifferent to his own blackness..HE made it the issue..
He thought because he did a good job with Princess Diana he used Bashir...Thank God he had his own filming done at the same time of their interviews...He sold the pictures to the magazine because he knew they were gonna continue following him for a picture....as far as Bigi's mom...she did not want any publicity...what's he gonna do...tell you??? He was never indifferent...he was a musician and he used that platform to speak out....we all got the message....duh...
@AnaisKarim the 5 #1 singles were mainly a byproduct of the momentum/stature gained from THRILLER, the buildup for the most anticipated follow up album in history, by name recognition alone, BAD would gain interest, but in terms of his original following buying his albums as they once did, that was over..DANGEROUS failed even worse...by the time the Summer of 1992 hit (before the 93 allegations), DANGEROUS wasn't even charting the Billboard charts
I hope you know bad came five years after thriller? So what momentum are you talking about? Dangerous failed? It literally sold over 32M and bad sold 35M. What world are you living in buddy?
@for-house-stark I would expect thar, MJ was upset and concerned because neither album wasn't selling DOMESTICALLY the way he was anticipating, Bad sold 6-8 million domestically, 17-19 million less than what Thriller did....Dangerous sold 2 million less than that in his home country, this is why he did the Oprah interview to try and boost domestic sales...
@@for-house-stark and I witnessed his entire solo career from 1979 to 2001 and how all his adult solo albums charted
@@scorpionJB so how did you miss the success of bad, dangerous and history?
@for-house-stark according to HIS expectations those albums didn't sell DOMESTICALLY the way he expected. He expected BAD to sell 100 million copies worldwide. He revealed this in his autobiography book Moonwalk, and right after Bad's release in August of 1987, both albums sold after initial weeks of release and lost momentum. This is why he did the Oprah interview because by the end of 1992, the Dangerous LP was not charting in the United States
Damn, he's racist.
and that was the absolute worse advice anyone has ever received....his career declined drastically the moment he shed his blackness.....if he remained visibly black, 95% of the discussions about this man would not even exist..this clip wouldn't even exist...
Are you serious......he was dealing with vitiligo and lupus....tried to hide it as long as he could....like to see you handle that...do you know anything other than the Tabloids???? Just curious...