The FIRE Movement Is Dead!! (What You Need to Know)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- Is the FIRE movement officially dead? There are a few major problems with the FIRE movement, and we've noticed it moving in a different direction the last few years. Here's what you need to know about early retirement and why traditional FIRE may not be as popular anymore.
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Biggest lesson i learnt in 2023 in the stock market is that nobody knows what is going to happen next, so practice some humility and low a strategy with a long term edge.
Nobody knows anything; You need to create your own process, manage risk, and stick to the plan, through thick or thin, While also continuously learning from mistakes and improving.
Uncertainty... it took me 5 years to stop trying to predict what bout to happen in market based on charts studying, cause you never know. not having a mentor cost me 5 years of pain I learn to go we’re the market is wanting to go and keep it simple with discipline.
Could you kindly elaborate on the advisor's background and qualifications?
“NICOLE ANASTASIA PLUMLEE’’ is the licensed fiduciary I use. Just research the name. You’d find necessary details to work with a correspondence to set up an appointment.
Just ran an online search on her name and came across her websiite; pretty well educated. thank you for sharing.
I wanted FIRE so bad that in my mid 20s, I got super depressed for 4 years because i felt like i wasn’t getting anywhere closer to my goal. Once I got out of the slump, I realized I’m doing better than most of my peers and I’m currently on track for a successful retirement
Curious - did you like what you were doing career-wise and in life? I think satisfaction in those areas can play a big part in this process.
@@Erin-rg3dw yeah. I loved my job. Still working the same job. I get paid decent. But it’s hard when you know you work hard but you see your goal and you’re still so far from it. I knew I couldn’t retire by 35-40 and I was very demotivated. I thought I was going nowhere
The first $100,000 is the hardest!
@caroline That’s false, the first $100 lasting one month is the hardest… for normal people.
@@nwj03a 😂
Learned about FIRE in my mid-40s. Was way behind in my savings. Now I am into FIROT: Financial Independence Retire On Time 🙃
I retired at 55 two weeks ago. It's not dead for me!
58 for me. 7 years ago and loving it. Enjoy you own time doing what you want to do. It's a third faze of life.
@@kennethwerswhat did you invest in lol and how long
That's not too early. Maybe not dead, but at least asleep, maybe crippled.
Is 55 early retirement :/ hell, my job has me set up to receive my full retirement benefit at the age of 50. Retiring early from that would have me in my 40's.
The way my finances are I am set to be able to retire early to mid 40's but at the moment at least, I plan to continue until 50 simply because the full retirement offered is very good and that would guarantee I have well over what I actually calculate needing. I was never great at math so can't hurt to over-correct lol.
@@LegDayLas I'm on-track to retire at 55 in a couple of years and I do not consider it "early" but rather "on-time".
Unfortunately, FI-ROT doesn't exactly sound appealing.
The kind of person that is disciplined enough to do FIRE is typically not the kind of person that can find purpose in playing golf every day.
They don’t have kids, they don’t have friends, they don’t drink, they don’t go on vacation, they won’t go to weddings.
If you actually can do a real “FIRE”, you’re living a miserable early life to live a miserable later life.
You will live alone your entire life. It’s honestly depressing.
I love time alone. No kids. I’m happy. Have gotten into running after a health scare, and now enjoying retirement thru setting personal (physical) challenges. Had to find a purpose, that’s all.
Not everyone is miserable…
@@hopoutside Speak it. I online game with folks from around the world now. Its awesome.
@@nwj03a lol you're funny. I'm helping all my friends FIRE too. Went to a wedding in 2022, vacation (with friends!) in 2023. You're right, I don't drink though. Never enjoyed it all that much. Maybe some people have different ideas of what is enjoyable than you do? What a concept!
@dragon My hyperbole went right over your head.
The basic concept of FIRE (the catchy internet fad type) is exactly what I described. I’m going to live as bare bones as possible, I can’t enjoy a late because it’s $7 now, and that costs me $80 later. I will never enjoy a late, I won’t enjoy anything, because I have to save and cut everything.
That’s the fad version of fire (it also assumes an enormous income very early). I’m making fun of that… not being fiscally responsible.
If you live to not live, you’re never living. If you’re not throwing money at subscription you never use, or a car that is 20k more expensive than is necessary, then that’s just smart.
I love how every episode begins with Bo saying "Brian I AM SO EXCITED ABOUT THIS!" Love his enthusiasm. Need a t-shirt with him saying that.
Definitely need a T Shirt for this.
Thanks, cant unhear it now
Golden retriever
(Brian’s Troll here) Boxers, print that on boxers.
@@andrewdiamond2697I'm a nerd. I would wear that.
Focus on FI, not necessarily the RE part.
Someone in the movement suggested we change retire early to “recreational employment. FIRE lives!
@@gritynerd4509 this is a good one! 😊
FIWF
@@gritynerd4509”recreational employment” is so much more appealing to me! Thanks for sharing
@@gritynerd4509barista fire
Maybe I'm just weird, but I would have ZERO issues being retired starting tomorrow. There are a billion films to watch, games to play, places to visit, people to meet. If you retire and don't know what to do with yourself, then that means that you made work your entire identity.
For me FIRE is to work until 50 as an engineer, then pivot to working for a national park or something outdoor and low stress
That sounds perfect.
Why not just do that now?
@@webbynater Money.
@@bLd321 it’s just kind of funny how we choose to wait until 50 to do something we want to do.
@@webbynater it's a luxury to do in life what you want to do. Not everyone can afford that.
For us it’s FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE RECREATIONAL EMPLOYMENT 💁🏻♀️get to do what we want. We’re 38 and will reach FIRE in 3-4 years and we’re freaking excited. 🎉🎉
THIS RIGHT HERE!!!! That's the answer. I'm stealing this :) My goal is to be financially independent enough to find work I enjoy (rather than the rat race to hedge against being old and poor).
how on earth did you pull that off, I'd love to see the nuts and bolts to see if I can adjust things myself
@@NotTehJonhi! We started investing in our late 20s. And I also invested in some Boeing and Tesla stocks and when they skyrocketed I sold them. After that it was all index funds only. Other than that nothing else, than just saving and investing. No inheritances or anything. I wish you much financial success in 2024! You got this!
I hate that FIRE stands for retire early when virtually none of the movement actually wants to retire early. It has always been about achieving a point where finances are no longer dependent on your work. You can do WHATEVER you want for work. If it makes money, cool, if it doesn't cool, the point is you are doing what you want because it makes you happy, not because it puts food on the table.
I’m stealing the Recreational Employment bit 😂. Whenever I tell people about the FI/RE movement and my goals with it, I always have to mention that I only plan to “soft retire” and pursue work that’s more meaningful but might not produce a great paycheck. The real dream is to no longer need to worry about money and to get some time added back into our lives while pursuing passion projects.
I think for most people, FIRE can be a useful tool to keep you ahead of where you actually need to be to retire on time. Because, to be honest, most people probably dont want to be retired for 40 to 50 years. However, the financial decisons that would put you on the track to retire that early, even if you dont reach those goals, will definitely set you up to be MUCH more comfortable retiring on time
I do 😂
Honestly Im never bored, but the key is proper income so I can still travel and do the stuff I like.
But whats retiring in this sense. People will always do something. I dont know, for me its all about being able to make your own choices instead of having to drag yourself to a job you dont like.
I’d like to not need to work more that 3 days a week by my 40s, and hoping to get down to 4 days a week before that time. Plus a couple long holidays and flexibility on work.
@@Coastpsych_fi99 Cut back to 32 hours when I was around 34. Wouldnt want it any other way. Looking at cutting it down to 28 hrs next year. Huzah
What has happened is that before 20/1/21 there where people who could save and invest up to 75% of their income., can today with inflation only save and invest 50 to 60 %.
@@tuttuttut7758 Yep! Me too. Retirement simply means not having to work for financial reasons. It doesn't mean not having some kind of income or hobbies that bring you joy, purpose, and even money. My goal would be to work (or better put, make extra money) at my own pace, time, and leisure. Not that I never work again.
Started my career as an Architect then shifted to software development and made a very good living. Looking at “retiring” early and going back to Architecture but not worried about how much $ I make doing it. Working on the projects I find interesting or challenging and turning away the projects that do not inspire me.
There's a difference between frugal and cheap. The cheap person isn't willing to commit money regardless of the value proposition, and even to the point where the unwillingness to spend actually can cost them. Frugal people may be cautious in spending, but they aren't fearful of it, and they ultimately understand cost/benefit analysis.
Cheap = Lowest Price
Frugal = Best Value
yes!!! 🔥 🔥 🔥
bingo@@TheFirstRealChewy
Great insight. Makes me realize that there’s a big difference between someone who becomes a millionaire (or just high net worth in general) by being cheap vs one who got there being frugal. I don’t think the cheap person ever finally feels the relief from financial independence.
For me FIRE is my plan IN CASE my husband or me become long term disabled or laid off and having a hard time getting another job as we age. This is our way as we are young to allow us to have peace in our future if things change outside of our control.
Love the FIRE movement! Since I found it in 2016, I have used these concepts in my own life 1) FU money, 2) exiting active mutual funds for index funds, 3) mini retirement, 4) international geographic arbitrage, 5) Roth conversion ladder, and 6) coast FIRE/semi-retirement. There is so much more to it than how much you need to save to retire. I'm in the messy middle now with 3 young kids, and aggressive saving prior to kids gave my spouse and me so many more options now.
What is international geographic arbitrage? Moving to a place with lower cost of living and/or state income tax + property tax?
@@Jary3166 It's earning money in a high cost of living country and living/spending in a low cost of living country or countries. Super common example is US citizens who live on only Social Security in countries where they can live well on that amount. But remote/online work or temp work may allow this too.
Thank you@@allisonmeyer4521 !
I used to be so into fire in my 20s. All I wanted was to quit working and go on a forever vacation. But now in my mid 30s, I'm starting to realize that I'm no longer the same person. I actually really love my job and it's a huge part of my identity. I have a lot of pride in what I do and as I get closer to retirement, I'm asking myself if I would be happy letting it go. And these days, the answer is no. Now, I think my plan is just Financial Independence without the early retirement.
That’s awesome! I hope to find work like that but should it not happy I’ll keep investing.
I did FIRE late in life. I started at 39 after divorcing a spendthrift spouse. I was already seeing health issues and I was panicked about not being able to have a comfortable retirement and potentially being forced to retire by the time I was 60.
My goal was to retired some time between 55 and 60. I actually hit my number at 54 and retired at 56. By the time I retired I was suffering from a couple of significant health issues. Fortunately my mental facilities have not declined as much as I expected, but there has been other physical deterioration that has made doing many things difficult. But at least seeing these problems coming up has allowed me to be realistic about how much I really need to be comfortable in my old age.
Something that I am always fight with in my mind is getting comfortable with a FIRE # that I can be confident with! How did you get to that level of confidence that you achieved the number you felt you needed to achieve?
@@NipItInTheBud100 - It takes time to get comfortable with the idea that a certain amount is good enough. It took me several years going over my historical spending and my budget numbers trying to poke holes in them - to find my mistakes as you can't know what you don't know. It also takes time to get comfortable with the idea of living off your savings. I did that last bit by front-loading all my retirement (including backdoor and Mega-backdoor Roth) and HSA contributions in the first half of the year and living off of my taxable investments instead of a paycheck. The last few months of the year I put everything extra back into the market in taxable accounts and repeated it again each January.
I collected a decade of historical spending data using Mint. This included mainly food, housing, insurance, basic utilities, and my employer's health insurance deductible. In my case was a bit less than $5,000/month my last couple of years before retiring. This was on the Seattle Eastside, so cost of living was pretty high, even if I did have a locked in mortgage on my home. I assumed the worse case was that I retired in-place.
This did not include a budget for a new vehicle or for replacing major home repairs, but I did anticipate renovating my house after I retired, though I only included a somewhat fixed budget of $100K for that. Then I looked at what my employer subsidized - mostly they paid for very good health insurance, but they also provided a budget for certain activities such as my bicycling / bike commuting. I also spent time considering my entertainment and travel budget. Finally I took a hard look at what taxes could be in retirement given where I expected my tax deferred assets would grow to as a base case and what Social Security benefits would likely be, assuming no changes in the current law. Bear in mind that my Mint records didn't even include my Federal taxes, so I had to add something fairly nontrivial for that.
With every additional budget item I tried to error on the conservative side and estimate high. In the end I rounded up my 2021 retirement budget to $100,000/year, a good 67% more than what Mint was showing as historical spending. That seemed reasonable because I'm getting older, but I was retiring in my mid-50s with not especially good health, so health-related expenses were going to a big chunk of that. Also I was expecting to pay a blended tax rate of at least 15% and I would likely have a marginal rate in the range of 25% for most of my retirement. Between just those two categories, $100,000 was actually starting to look almost optimistic, leaving me maybe $10-12,000/year for other things such as travel and entertainment.
Current budget is $113,000/year.
While this may seem like a lot, bear in mind that when I lived and worked in North Texas, I made an initial stab at a retirement budget of just $3,000/month or $36,000/year. This was just before the Great Recession and not long after I started pursuing FIRE. But this lacked an adequate buffer for a number of things such as taxes, healthcare, major repairs, travel, entertainment and vehicle replacement. If you adjust for inflation since I set that budget, we're talking about nearly $4,500/month or $54,000/year in today's dollars. And that's not adjusting for the COLA differences between the two locations. But at the time I had set my target FIRE number at $1.25M, so obviously I must have known deep down that $3,000/month wasn't going to cut it if I wanted to live well.
I'm almost 40, and I'm really targeting just to be able to drop out of the corporate grind at age 50 and have options to do other things but still earn an income. Then at age 60 to be able to live the rest of my life not concerned about earning income at all. I don't really see myself "retiring" as sitting around not being productive for the rest of my life, just opening doors to choose to do things the way I'd like.
I really appreciate how they acknowledged that the fundamentals in the FIRE movement have been around for decades. It's nothing new but the "branding" and discussion that have resurfaced are helping a lot.
I’m not retired, however I have been unemployed anywhere from 4-7 months 3 times now in 10 years due to the nature of my industry. I can get behind the idea that as long as you have someone to enjoy your time doing things with it is so much better. The first time, I had lots of friends and family that I was able to do things with. The second time was during Covid. The loneliness and boredom is real!!! Believe it or not online video games got me through it by giving me a community to connect with.
Whenever looking at married vs single stats, be sure to consider the previously married+divorced/widowed influence on those stats. Many of those single people ended up that way unintentionally or unwillingly, and they're more likely to have worse outcomes than people who opted for it.
I've seen people say they retired early but start a business on TH-cam making videos, blogging, or doing retire consulting. they just changed careers.
It's on their schedule and those videos and blogs make them money while they're on vacation. Big difference.
@@misspriss2482no difference, they changed career and pretend they are retired. Don't be a gullible sheep
@@lengerercould they live off the income from their TH-cam channels/whatever they do? Do they spend 40+ hours a week on those things? If not, their new “career” is just a hobby that makes them extra money. No different than someone retiring and doing woodworking for some extra cash in their free time.
@@lengerer There's a huge difference from two reasons. One, if they don't' NEED that income to live. Or two, if they can do it on their own time and schedule. 99% of people don't have the ability to work when they want or on what they want. That alone is an incredible difference and my main goal.
I just want financial independence so I can step back from my stressful job to something I enjoy but doesn’t pay great
The FI comes before the RE for a good reason. One of the best messages the community drums into newbies is to build the life you want, then save for it.
Do you have to retire when you hit your RE number? Nope. The best part about having FI money is that it converts at a 1:1 ratio to FU money.
FU money is the gold at the end of the rainbow.
Start young, invest steadily, s&p, Nasdaq, one house, one spouse use common sense and you will most likely retire early.
The thing I always get confused on about calculating this is, if you’re wanting to replace say $100K in annual living expenses in today’s dollars, do I also need to adjust for inflation as well? Because $100K annually in 2023 won’t be the same as $100K annually in 2048.
Yes and no. You should account for inflation, subtract anything like a house payment you might have handled already. And realistically 80% of that depending on your new tax situation and lifestyle in retirement
The 4% rule they mentioned already factors in inflation, actually.
You need to keep a portion of your portfolio in the stock market. I would consider an S&P Index fund for example. And then use the bucket strategy to keep at least 3 YEARS of expenses in safe assets (cash, treasuries, HYSA). Another couple years in bonds or income funds would be great. The rest in the index fund. That will keep your money growing with inflation. Then annually, you can refill your safe asset bucket unless we're in a recession. Otherwise, ride out the recession and refill the bucket when the market recovers.
@@allisonmeyer4521But only for 30 years, if you read the original study it's based on
I separate financial independence from retirement. I’ve worked for myself all my life so I don’t have a boss.
I have no desire to step away from working. I love what I do too much stop. I plan on working as long as I’m able.
I would LOVE to retire early, but I am more passionate about the financial independence part. FI would enable me to drop to part-time or less, and still do what I love until traditional retirement age.
Why should the FIRE movement be dead? It's the number 1 escape from horrendous suffering in a 9 to 7 job that ruins our health. Boredem, lack of fulfillment, empty days after having achieved FIRE - all this is 500% better than wilting away in a fulltime job that ruins your mental and physical health.
I'm at Coast FIRE for a retirement age of 50. If I keep saving, I can push that age up to 47. Once at Coast FI, I cut down my work to 30 hours a week. I'm still able to save 15%-25% of my income, or I can choose to be generous (treating friends to food, giving a large tip, buying new tech for family), or splurge on travel. Coast FI is the best way in my opinion.
No spouse no kids …
@@mitchthornton1820Incorrect
I'm still locked into FIRE at 28. On track to hit my number by 34 or 35. A simple life is a good life. Wife and I have no interest in having kids and would rather have the option to switch careers or take extended periods of time off from work. Her family is halfway across the world and seeing them for only a couple weeks a year (and then not having any PTO to do anything else) is just not an option for us long term. I have endless hobbies and things I'd rather do than work. Hiking the Appalachian trail isn't really possible if you only get 2-4 weeks of PTO, for example, and that's something on our bucket list. I'd rather do that at 35 than 65.
I disagree on the social aspects. Join a club. Find a hobby. Go to church. Join a climbing or CrossFit or some kind of gym with classes and socializing opportunities. Coworkers are often temporary and keeping professional relationships separate from personal relationships is often much better for your mental health anyways. And I've seen way too many stories of people getting backstabbed by coworkers who they thought would keep things to themselves but didn't.
If you're retired and sitting around at home doing nothing all day you're doing FIRE wrong. The saying in the FIRE community goes: "build the life you want, then save for it." As you guys say, this is your WHY. Without a WHY, yes, FIRE is an empty pursuit.
Your withdrawal rates are kind of egregious for the younger range of FIRE too. 2.5% for 35-year olds? Really? There has never been a 60 period in history where a 3% withdrawal rate has failed. Something like 95% of such retirements end up with 3-4x their initial inflation-adjusted portfolio value, to boot. We're targeting 3% to be conservative, but even that is low since we'll likely have SOME form of income. It's unlikely that most FIRE crowd people will never make another dollar their entire lives.
honestly the life you described without kids sounds kinda boring and perfectly representrs why the FIRE movement is really only meant for people with dual income and no kids unless you're so rich but at that point you don't even need the Fire movement to retire early
@@stuff4232we have 3 nieces and nephews that we can spend as much time with as we want. Kids aren't required to live a fulfilling life. My parents have friends who are in their 60s and child free and have lived perfectly fulfilled and interesting lives. As long as you have a "tribe" it's completely irrelevant whether or not you decide to start your own family.
@@stuff4232 kids aren't necessary for a fulfilling life. I would be 100x more miserable with kids. We love visiting my family members with kids but are always relieved when we go back to our quiet home with cats.
Plenty of my parents' older friends who were childfree live perfectly fulfilling and interesting lives.
@@stuff4232 LOL you have not met a lot of people who don't have kids then. Our lives are anything but boring because we don't have kids. We can do whatever we want, how we want it, go anywhere because we don't have kids. To each their own. Is that the only reason to have kids? So that life is not boring and there's a constant struggle for peace? Don't be such a natalist and just be happy for the person because they achieved their goals in life.
I think there will be a lot of regret among dinks, also his wife says she doesn't want kids. One of my friend's parents was like that when they lived in CA and all of their friends had no kids. They moved to Texas and that changed they ended up having 5! I also know a 40 year old suddenly struck with baby fever having trouble having kids its very sad for her.
This is the best episode you guys have ever done. I was ready to fight thinking this was just clickbait to dunk on FIRE but this was very well presented. Those last few slides were absolutely fire no pun intended
I wasted my 20s with this crazy shit, skipped getting married, having kids and never traveled. My grandfather work until the day he died at 84. Just find something you want to do. Once you hit your goal you still wont be comfortable enough to retire.
I get it. The RE part of FIRE is not good for the market. It’s less people working, buying stocks and consuming.
I think you guys are more honest than any other prominent financial personalities I’ve seen, but I can’t get over that most financial personalities are starting to hand out easily counter points about retiring that have solutions. I turned on Suze Orman randomly flipping through the Tv and it seems her whole thing has pivoted to telling people not to retire, and she’s still “working” so they can too.
I agree with that the goal may not to be completely retire but that you have enough financial independence that you can do what fulfills you instead having to do something because you need the money. I like the ability to “walk away”. I retired with a pension at 58 that now I am going to work as a contractor because I like what I was doing but I don’t need to do that job because I have to.
@@scrapinmaniac I can't remember the channel, btu one of the hosts works part time at a winery just because they love wine. They get to drink wine, talk about wine, and get a discount on it. Seems like a good deal to me
Different strokes for different folks.
I prefer to say FIRE is Financial Independence, Retire Earlier! My pension age should be 68, but if I retire at 60, then that's earlier.
Damn... IDK about you but that pension seems like a scam. 68 leaves almost no time to collect on it, and the average lifespan will for sure not be able to get back what was put in. My pension for example hits full yield 18 years sooner (granted mine is classed as high risk for injury).
It's nice to still have a pension in this day and age I guess... But at that age, I would almost rather have a lump sum retirement account.
@@LegDayLas the US has one of the shortest life expectancies in the developed world. Approx 50% of people my age in my country will live beyond 90.
Everyone who works in my country has the option of a pension and their employer must contribute to it by law.
@@clarkeysam You are correct I am looking at it from a US perspective, so perhaps that helps bridge the gap because yes we certainly do not have a great average lifespan thanks to our obesity and drug issues. Thanks for your insight.
@@LegDayLas I'm also probably significantly younger than most people who watch these videos.
Hey. Thanks. Self actualization is tough especially when your identify is tied to your job. This movement is pushing boundaries. It's not for the weak. Don't settle for toxic relationships (at work, home or society). We deserve better. Break the cycle. Rebel. Isolation (individuation) is part of the journey.
We were able to achieve FIRE with one child who graduated college by 2017, and we were 42 and 38 years young. We paid off the house in June 2023 on a 6 year and 4 month mortgage. It is achievable, and nothing is wrong with retiring when YOU are able to. Too many people are saying retirement at a certain age is an issue when several of us in the military retire before 40. Also, government workers in New York and other places retire before 40. Stop making this an issue if it's not your issue.
⚛️ I tested the FIRE movement at 44 years old ⚛️ played lots of golf ⛳️ got bored so began looking for start up businesses and did a little bit of Ubering to serve a purpose for my local community ⚛️ high cost of living makes me recalculate my early retirement ⚛️
You guys really do a good job of stating your assumptions and forecasting a range of possibilities. Kudos for not assuming your audience is dumb and can handle a more numbers on the screen.
Retired at 39 for 18 months. Went back to work for 5 years.Retired again for 6 years. Went back to work and have now decided to be semi-retired at 59. I hope the retirement police don't catch me :-).
To each his own but the FIRE movement has a lot of good values to teach everyone. Being FI young, is liberating and builds your confidence immensely.
I get bored after a 4 day weekend of passive activity; can’t imagine planning for 40 years of that. Maintaining activities you find purpose in is so important!
This. If you don’t like your job then work on finding a career that brings you purpose. Don’t focus on how to spend the next 40+ years doing nothing.
I need Financial Independence (so I can comfortably use all my pto to do things like clean out the garage and rebuild my fence)
@@AAS1-kp9cs the thing that sucks is even when you find that purpose, they need you working 40-50 hours a week then it starts to be no fun. Wish more employers gave options to work higher level positions but a reduced work week (for example 4x8hr days) for 20% less pay. If every work week had a 3-day weekend I could see myself working a lot longer.
@AAS1 Great statement in the abstract. But "finding a job I'll like" would mean getting paid less than a third of what I make now. So I could spend every work day for the next 20 years doing something I like, as long as I'm paid for it. Or I could work another 5 or 6 years doing something I don't particularly like, then have all my time free.
@@path4061 if you want to save up and then do volunteer work that’s fine. I just think we should all keep contributing to society and not check out halfway through.
I entered the FIRE movement midway through 2020 and it was already different types of FI and more focus on FI, not the RE part. Skinny, fat, barista were all already terms that entered the movement. I personally never wanted to retire early, at least not before 50. I was mid 20s, so I entered when I just started working. Retirement is something my parents aren't old enough for, so a really far from my bed show. I've seen what can change, what can go wrong, what can go right. I know my father always said he wanted to retire at 60, now he wants to continue working until 70 because my mom will still be working when he gets to retire and he doesn't know what to do all alone. I know wishes change, I know the world changes, I want to be prepared for possible financial difficulties, but what I want to do with the rest of my life, as in retirement, is something I will re-evaluate in 20 years. I'm too young to decide, but will build the doors so they can be opened. I don't have to use them if I don't want to.
Unpopular opinion but I entered FIRE because I want to do absolutely nothing. During COVID, I took a year and a half off doing nothing but passive activities and it mad me really happy. I think it just depends on the person since I'm not a very social, outdoorsy type. Give me internet and food and I don't mind staying in forever.
Good to know @yourfatmom69
I love it!!!!
Amen... nothing wrong with that.
I am working towards FIRE so that if AI makes my job obsolete I have something to fall back on and my family doesn’t become homeless. Plan is to reach FI and then get a more enjoyable job. Maybe work at the zoo or something.
Sadly, the FIRE movement for Gen Z means retiring at 55 instead of 70...
its all about your expenses and keeping them low...your expenses dont know what year you were born...i couldnt make money online from my bedroom in my teens and 20's like gen Z...some see a roadblock , some see a detour ...my daughter is 17 and has already maxed out a ROTH IRA two years in a row ...if she works past 40 , itll be doing whatever she chooses , because she chooses
That’s actually for everyone, not just Gen Z
I became financially retired at 54 amd now semi-retired at 56 from my aluminum manufacturing company and 0 debt period!
Really great discussion especially on how to live in retirement. Since I'm in my own business, the hobbies and friends outside of the workplace already exist.
I'm actually on goal to FIRE when I'm 40. But, I actually like my current job, so I'm not likely to leave it anytime soon.
I adopted the thought that it is less about what I am retiring from to more about what I am retiring to. The next adventure. Coming to a financial independent near you. :)
I retired from the labor market at 36, and I didn't have a good paying job, so I'm convinced that most people could FIRE if they made that their priority. You don't need a high-paying career to save up the money, you just have to be comfortable living a frugal lifestyle. Examples: I spend just a couple hundred dollars a decade on clothes, always buy used cars with cash, cheapest Android over iPhone, no vacations, no credit cards, no personal debt, housemates to split the bills, etc. Statistically, I'm the odd ball, but the funny thing is that from my perspective everyone else is crazy for wasting all their money on stuff they don't really need! I look around and see people living like rock stars, but I'm wise enough to know that they are piling up debt.
I'm very similar except for the no vacations part. My retirement plan is to be constantly on vacation but only in cheap countries where it's actually cheaper to rent a room short term than it is just to pay bills and council tax in the UK on a home I own outright!
@@rudolphteperberry3888 That sounds like a life hack. I like it! I'm not totally against spending money on fun. Now that I've achieved financial independence, I want to start going on cruises -- that appears to provide the most bang for the buck.
I’m 31 and I’ve been watching you guys for about 6 months now. The wealth of knowledge I’ve gained from your channel has blown me away. I’ve tried to tell my friends/parents about you guys and they are not interested. (Their loss) This video did really get me thinking… I’m that 30 year old who just wants to retire because I can’t stand doing my job for another 10/20 years I get paid well for what I do but it’s soul destroying. It’s not what I want to do but, it’s the classic case of golden handcuffs so I’m thinking along the lines now of building up half of what I need to subsidize what I would be getting. To do something a actually want to do. Which I’ve also got to figure out because I’ve gone hard into this in a big way already. Thinking it’s going to solve all my problems. Watching this has made me realize it won’t.
I'm 29 and tried doing the same thing with my friends and family with financial channels, especially with the Money Guy Show. I just found it better to ask if they want financial guidance and did brief financial audits and gave them basic advice, such as the FOO. I got all of them to realize that they need to get rid of bad debt and start emergency funds and contribute more to their retirement accounts. It's very fulfilling
If you need a little encouragement, I am all for you living your life in a way that heals your soul and makes you feel good, so that when you're old your regrets won't be that you never tried but instead that you would have joy that you had so many days and months and years living well. ❤
My wife and I like to say we're a little smokey. By April we'll be on step 4 of the FOO with a long term goal of reaching 750k in retirement accounts, by age 40 because at that point we have 30 years expenses covered. Then we let that ride in index funds while being able to take pay cuts from my job as a pastor as our lifestyle gets cheaper (paid off mortgage, kids move out etc).
I'll be a full time pastor until death or dementia, hopefully half pay before 50 and 0 salary by 65.
I’m investing 30% of my income for retirement right now and it’s very nice to be able to do that!
I considered FIRE, but honestly don't want to sit around my house all day doing nothing or worse, wanting to do things and constantly worry about my long-term money.
I'll be "retiring" at 52. I guess that's FIRE, but instead of just wasting away, I'd like to find another line of work that I enjoy, not for the money. That's easier when you don't need the money. I think work is healthy for most people. People's idea of early retirement is not always in line with reality. Unfortunately people start drinking too much, and get very unhealthy. Without health, retirement isn't great.
I retired 2 and a half years ago at 55 from a factory job working shifts. If I was ever to look around and think “what now” ( I haven’t), I would think I could be in nightshift tonight, then everything would feel ok.
Want to do FIRE…come join the military. 20 years to a pension plus matching funds on a TSP. Live below your means and invest the remainder into a brokerage to grow over the years and cover the gap between active duty retirement and drawing your TSP. Plus tuition assistance, GI Bill (you can pass to your kids), health care, extra allowance for housing and sustenance…it’s tough to beat the benefits package and the fact that you can FIRE in just 20 years…
I've been casually doing the FIRE thing for more than a decade, with most of my online research and community participation happening early on. It's far from dead IMO.
Over that decade I saved and invested as expected, with better than expected market returns offset by worse than expected inflation. As a result, I'm well past my target FIRE number and maybe a millionaire 5 years earlier than expected, which is neat. I can't complain about my financial results at all.
Haven't actually retired yet. Part of it is not knowing what I want to do with the rest of my life, and part of it is work not being so bad since I downshifted to part-time+remote work. I'll probably still be leaving my job decades earlier than most would, but it won't be before I have an idea of what to do with that time. The extra money to pad my accounts in the meantime is also nice.
Not married ? No kids ?
@@mitchthornton1820 Nah, that's one of the things to sort out in the next few years. But at this rate, nope.
Having said that, if you're just looking for excuses, feel free to say it can't be done because of and work until you're dead crippled. Most of the OG FIRE people I followed were married and had kids, if not pre-FIRE then post-FIRE.
@@ordinaryhuman5645 So as a parent part of my responsibility is to raise my child/ children to the best of my ability but to give them a childhood to cherish as an adult , they are only kids for a short period of time , then it is also my job to put them in the best possible position to succeed in life whether they choose to follow that road or not which all takes money and time . If you are reaching FIRE while your kids are still in the house you have probably failed as a parent …
Excellent wish I found you guys sooner
Wow!! Thanks for sharing FI Next Endeavor and FI Recreational Employment!! Those really help me shift focus and alignment the way I need.
How to fill my time ? Easy - LEGO !
Great episode. Would love if you all could post some charts showing starting at 35 and 40
I love this. Thank you guys. My wife and I have been thinking we weren't doing well as we enter our 40's but we're doing okay and giving my kids a life I never got because my parent's had to skimp out of necessity. Our goal has changed and going to save what we can and enjoy our lives while we are healthy and not chase a dollar figure.
Any movement that requires people to speed run their life is not bound to take for the masses. But the norm where people YOLO with their finances also isn’t ideal.
Only thing that lasts for the masses is continuous, significant and steady actions towards your financial goals over a few decades.
50 amd happily entering my semi retired era. Stoked actually.
Bo is the most excited guy on TH-cam- I love it
I've been watching the MG show since they had 30K subscribers. There hasn't been a single video in which they ever say anything good about FIRE without giving five reasons why you shouldn't. They need outside perspective and not just what they think of it. Why would anyone wanting to be FIRE join Abound Wealth if they are just going to say your dreams are stupid.
Fire as it originally was made is giving up your prime years to live like a miser your whole life and not have a career.
@@jackherbic6048nope.
Huh? I didn’t get the impression they said to not FIRE. They just said be careful to have something to retire to or you’ll be unhappy and unfulfilled
hes correct though...any time they mention it , its like its painful to say anything positive about it ...but when you get paid by AUM fees like them and many others , they def dont want their paycheck going down when you FIRE , instead of up for a regular 45 year career as you add to your account out of every paycheck@@Mactakun
FIRE will never die. There's just periods where more people are interested and periods where folks being casual will give up.
Correct. If the FIRE movement is dead then retirement in general is dead.
Fire for me is retiring in my early 50's. The kids and the messy middle will be handled, so no major life surprises. It's still an early retirement and I have control over my own time.
Fire (and traditional retirement) can be killed by inflated prices. Most people are worse off than they were before covid era money printing.
@@zunedog31 I'm a millennial, so the economic situation has never been good for me. I have actually been really happy with how inflation has pushed wages/incomes up in these last 2-3 years.
Seriously, I found the concept that people who have been on this path to exit the work force just giving up on early retirement because it's too hard insulting. Hard work and planning is our whole thing..
I’m not exactly planning on retiring early, but I do want to be able to retire by 50 if that’s what I choose at that time. I don’t think I’ll be completely retired because I’d probably get bored, but having the ability to do whatever I want at that age is important to me
I hit $3M net worth today at age 32. FIRE isn’t dead to me 😊
Stop Capping
Love this episode. I would also love some more scenarios about how SS, pension, and Medicare might affect someone's FIRE numbers.
I'm going to work part time as a consultant in my field. I'm ducking out from full time work in less than two years. I will work about 10 to 16 hours per week after that. That will give me a little supplemental play money and something to do to help fill my schedule during the week. Not sure it I will stay in Atlanta but I will be traveling more for sure.
I am new at personal finances/ financial planning. Love the content and education. Thank you so much!
Such an amazing video. Tells you exactly what you need number wise.
Glad that you say Compound Growth and not Compound Interest.... thank you
I wonder how many Ramsey disciples are watching this thinking, "I think I'll go with the 8% withdrawal rate Dave recommends, thanks!"
8% may be a little high, but with a 2.75% withdrawal rate, there are going to be some TMGS FIRE people out there wondering what to do with $10M in their 80s! 😂 And possibly mad when they realize they could have FIREd or FINEd a decade earlier and enjoyed life a good deal more.
I think the people with $10m will be perfectly happy not being a homeless 8%'er lol. They have $10m after all
Good stuff. Me and my wife plan on retiring early, but not that early. She is 10 years younger than me so we plan on leaving when I am 60-62 and she is 50-52. We think we can get to $5 mil by then. We are currently 41 & 31
Bro you already won the lottery by marrying 10 yr younger girl😂 some dudes wife look like their aunt 😂
@@Fred-yd9md thanks. I look like I am in my early 30s she still gets carded. Lol
@@Fred-yd9md did I mention she makes more than I do as well (and I am in the six figures. Lol)
@@ryanra44 boss you guys are like power couple.. your wife is a true bnb (beauty with brain).. does she has any social media profile like in fb or insta? would love to see her.
Wish I were like you.. I live in small town here in south Mississippi.. earning like 35 grand as a con Venice store employee.. I m kinda short and skinny, so getting a date is a rare luck .. even the land whales act as diva when I approach 🤪
@@Fred-yd9md thanks. I don’t give out my wife’s personal information on social media though
Please cite sources on the 2.75% withdrawal rate. I’ve never seen anything that conservative. Also social security changes the math considerably and that seems to have been ignored.
Yeah. Even the conservative numbers I've seen were 3.3% and that had a 100% success rate.
Hey guys, you rock, one production note for the editors: the recording is being recording using a flat color transform(shooting in "log"). if you aren't already, you can use davinci resolve or other color tools to bring out all the real colors that log provides by transforming the color space based on the camera the profile was shot in. Itll reduce the washed out feel and if you need to keep the look for TV output, maybe keep everything as youre doing but gamma curve things down a smidge and pull the black point down 10%
It ideally will make for a crispier colored video output. ( test of course since i havent a clue whats on yalls end. I guess have a color monitor so I figure why not offer some unsolicited advice in exchange for the great money advice)
How do you calculate new car or roof repairs. AC and heater big tickets items
FI at 45. Left the job and work culture that was killing me. Began a new phase of life and work that I love. It's not about RE. We must have productive and challenging tasks that are rewarding to do. FI is important because it provides the freedom for us to pursue the possibilities.
0:00: 🔥 Discussion on the evolution of financial independence, the impact of the FIRE movement, and the catalyzing effect on financial discussions.
4:11: 💰 The concept of retiring early has evolved due to life changes in 40s, 50s, and 60s, impacting the financial independence movement.
7:47: 💰 The emphasis on quantitative decisions led to the downfall of the FIRE movement, neglecting qualitative aspects and causing disillusionment.
11:14: 🔥 The challenges of transitioning into retirement and the impact on relationships, including a high divorce rate among older couples, as well as the increased isolation for single retirees.
14:47: 🔑 Importance of Purpose, Healthy Habits, and Active Lifestyle for Happy Retirees
18:47: ⏳ Financial Independence Retire Early (FIRE) movement evolving towards owning time and resources for next life chapters.
22:33: 💸 The 4% rule for retirement savings needs to be stress-tested as retirement approaches, as it may not be a one-size-fits-all solution.
26:11: ⏳ Financial independence planning should consider conservative assumptions for long-term sustainability, aiming to replace a portion of expenses indefinitely.
29:44: 💰 Early retirement by 40 requires saving close to $2 million and $10,000 monthly. Consider shifting to a more fulfilling career instead.
33:23: 💰 Financial independence requires careful planning for long-term expenses, with portfolio sizes increasing significantly as age and expenses rise.
37:12: 💰 The importance of long-term compound growth for financial independence and retirement planning.
Love the two sides of fi shout out F.I. Recreational Employment is the bucket I've realized im in on this journey
The vast majority of FIRE is better categorized into that bucket. That's not new, it's been like that since FIRE was conceptualized. The RE part has always been a poor representation of the movement's ideals.
I'm a F.I.R.E person, left corporate world at 45. I fully exoect to work again, at some point. And while I "get" the happy retirees activities and stats, I will say that creating a vacuum in your life can draw in unexpected joys. Sometimes great creativity can spring from boredom! Don't think every minute of your early retirement has to be planned and optimized. There is beauty in getting a little lost, and seeing where it leads you!
Our income just went way up hard work pays off.
We are concentrating on Debt free and limiting to $60k standard of living. Everything else is being invested.
I get so bummed when I watch this show as the FIRE goals mentioned are impossible for me due to my age and income. However, my advice to anyone is to start saving something...anything as soon as you can so that retirement becomes a possibility. Don't wait. Even a small amount adds up over time! My 57 yr old self would tell my 25 yr old self to NOT cash out that $2000 retirement account when I left my job!
at 37+, i agree with what the money guys say. it is hard to preempt the changes and budget needed despite me knowing my steady state as of today. The most comforting way for ppl around this age is either you have large chunk of $ for FI that you do not worry with withdrawal rates of even 2.5-3%, else I think being able to rake in a monthly income to cover at least your monthly or annual expenses (aka semi-retiring or recreational employment) will be great so you leave the retirement pot untouched and have it grow while you find meaningful work/things to do.
I really like how this FIRE episode is structured. I recall giving some feedback on the math in the earlier episode that was based on offsetting income.
You guys get it now 😊 also happy to see good alignment with my own calculations and projections.
I like the FINE acronym.... Not heard that before.
I retired in 2019 aged 51 and now I have 5-6 nature recovery projects in the area where I live and 3 community projects in my town.
So after a 29 year working career, I hope you have another 30 year career in these new endeavours.
For me, it's all about building new relationships.
You just need FI. RE is optional. Don’t have get too fixated on the retirement part. My current goal is to keep working but also withdraw just the dividend at age 59.5. That way you get the more desirable tax treatment, can go on vacations when you are relatively young but keep your nest egg growing.
This video is MONEY!! Great information! 🙏
Crazy you'd need need over 1.4 million to live on 40k a year which isn't a good income for lower middle class or higher folks. Not counting for emergencies or turbulent changes in life.
Food for thought for sure!
I have health insurance from my husband ( retired govt), a 1200 month pension( I’m a teacher), and 420k in portfolio ( taxable, pre tax, and tax free). House not paid for ( owe 150k), husband has 53k a year govt pension , no debt. Husband has 730k in portfolio too. I am 59, I am retiring in June. I will substitute teach some. How am I doing? Thanks - I like your channel
(Brian’s Troll here) when does it make sense to invest in a Financial Planner?
At a cost of 1.25% for 1 million under management, that’s equivalent to $1041 a month that’s not in a portfolio earning money. In my situation, I’m 8 years from retirement. Assuming an 8% return (low S&P avg Long term return rate) compounded for 8 years, that 1.25% is equal to $141,000.
When does it make sense to divert $1041 a month from my investment allocation to an advisor?
FIRE is dead, long live FIRE!
Really enjoyed this episode. One of the biggest living expenses of retiring prior to age 65 is health insurance. I’ve not seen the cost of health insurance go down, so if you’re planning to retire in your 40’s or 50’s, the cost of that at the time will be a big determining factor in your ability to retire early.
There are options here:
1. Leave the US, pay out of pocket for much cheaper healthcare.
2. Control your income, get on a subsidized ACA plan.
I’m looking for a podcast that focuses on an individual starting to save in their 50’s for retirement.
It is called Catching up to FI
Their Adjusted 4% rule makes no sense. It seems arbitrary and not based on any math. Sequence of returns risk is mostly about accounting for the first 5 years or so. Once you get past that you have too much money now.
The adjustment is fairly straightforward based on the content of the Trinity study. It helped to determine a “safe withdrawal rate” meaning a rate at which you could withdraw a constant amount adjusted for inflation without “significant risk” of it depleting over the course of typical retirement lengths (focus on up to 30 years). Using the same methodology, you get rates lower than 4% for longer time periods, and eventually converge on a “perpetual withdraw rate” around 2.5% for an unbounded length of retirement.
I believe the issue here is you are mixing a separate criticism of the Trinity study method with the validity of the adjustment. Would we really just blindly withdraw 4% if we knew the market conditions were poor? Would we really not work a bit extra to buffer against the early sequence of returns? Similar methods to Trinity using a “guardrail” approach allow for higher initial returns but adjusting down if market conditions deteriorate allow for a similarly high success rate.
Essentially your criticism means that their 2.5% doesn’t make sense, but also that none of the percents resulting from Trinity make sense because they don’t reflect reasonable behavior in early retirement in response to sequence of returns risk materializing.
Personally, RE as early as possible isn’t my goal. FI is, so I expect to see a runway portfolio with more money than I would reasonably spend as I work past that point. If RE is the main goal I can see why exactly what criteria makes for a “safe” rate (and hence how much you have saved) would mean more.
I'm wondering if they are taking 3.5% withdrawal rate and adding a 1% AUM fee. While normal in the industry, it's extremely expensive for someone trying to retire early.
@@BrianAnother that's why FIRE people are all DIY. losing 25-33% of your withdrawals to fees is crazy
@@BrianAnotherFIRE ppl are not paying some joe shmoe 1% fee. Most that I know buy VOO like ETFs and are able to achieve their goal.
It is always irritating when you talk divorce as far as being alone but not death. Many are alone because their spouse dies.
37:00 I'm 40, on track for FINE at 53, saving 25%. Then, I'm going to go work part-time for people like these guys.
Some quick math shows 2.5% withdrawal rate at 35 is counting on real returns of somewhere around 2%. The stock market has on average returned ~8%.
Even accounting for sequence of returns risk, something has to be missing here.
Are they adding a 1% AUM fee to these calculations? That would make things much closer, but then you’re paying your financial advisor 30% of your total expenses.
Sadly that's not how the math works. I encourage you to research sequence of returns risk. Just because your portfolio over a lifetime generates 8% yearly doesn't mean you got 8% every year to siphon off. It means some years you got -15%, some you got 20%, and so on. If you retire and start with 3 years of -15% for example you have just spent 3 years selling out your assets at a significant loss while trying to survive. At that point you could get 20% returns every year for the remainder of your life, you have cause too much damage in those early years to allow those great years to compound properly.
Early Retirement Now covers sequence of return risk in tremendous detail. There is a lower bound too - less than 3% withdrawal rate is overkill even when retirement is 60 years long.
The bucket strategy helps protect against sequence of return risk. Have your portfolio positioned that way before you retire.