I kind of suspected the motor being on the weak side. With steppers the problem is that they don't just slow down with a load, they just suddenly cease to rotate at all, they just stall. Bad for a planer, as that'd lead to rubbing of the blade on the now-stationary board. Now that you're down the rabbit hole with steppers, it's mostly too late, but a geared DC motor with a PWM controller might have been the better choice.
Yeah, or even better a small geared 3Ph motor, as I have a couple of small VFD's. Unfortuneatly, I didnt find such a motor. This Vexta is pretty old. I need to check the spec sheet, but I think it is only about 1NM. I can now get a 3NM Nema 23, and there is this video, which shows it working: th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html
@@RotarySMP Thinking a VFD would already be overkill. Geared DC motors are the gold standard for wireless power tools for example, because their drawbacks like slop in the gears, low torque at low speed and speed being dependent on load aren't big problems in that application. If the bigger stepper also causes problems with stalling, I'd go for geared DC. You could keep the cabinet and power supply, just have a PWM controller with polarity reversal. Instead of stalling, it'd just get slower under high load, but at least keep moving.
When you tig, try to clean all the mildcale and rust off. You can soak your parts overnight in vinegar and it will remove the milscale and you will have clean base metal. Your tog weld won’t sizzle anymore and you won’t contaminate your tungsten. Just a helpful tip mate
I am getting better with Freecad, but especially on a quick and nasty job like this, often break my model by not being rigorous enough with my drawing practice.
Thanks for the Naxos jab... (plan to go end of sept) Those Incas were sold in the US for a while and they are overall well made with the exceptions you have had to fix. They are hard to sell here because of it. If I were doing that mod I would have used a 90VDC (90* or straight) gear motor and a KB drive for it. Basically the same motors and drives used on drum sanders. The drives are around $50 but the motors are stupid priced since they are industrial use. The motor on my drum sander died and I bought a used one and made one working one out of the two. I love your enthusiasm on projects but on your electronics ones you tend to overengineer it sometimes.
I should have thought this through better. There is one video th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html where a guy did it with a stepper and since I familar with steppers I copied it. I figured a geared DC motor also need a PSU, and a speed controller so it would be a wash. The gearbox is the key though. I also have a couple of small VFD's, and did look for a small 3Ph geared motor, as that would have been perfect, but couldn't find one for a resonable price.
@@RotarySMP I can't tell you how many projects I have done that when I was done I said why on earth did I do it the hard way... The drive I use for the 90v motors is a KBVC-14. Obviously it's a 120V version since I'm in the US. It's about 2.5" in diameter and an inch thick and it has the potentiometer built into it and the whole thing mounts to the panel and hangs on the potentiometer. 120V in and max 90V variable output for $50 ish. Compact all in one and cheap. But the motor that's another thing all together when it comes to pricing. They run $200+ new but I have bought them used for $50 or less. Since you have the stepper set up already how about a gear reduction stepper motor?
I considered it, but that does't really address the issue that the pinion shaft is a plain bearing in a very dusty environment, and therefore will always be a maintenance hog.
You may already know this, but find a stepper with lowest inductance. I have also just used a dumb power supply with a transformer, bridge rectifier and large caps. This allows the stepper driver to do all the current limiting. As an aside I would only use a stepper here if I had the kit lying around. I wonder if a windscreen wiper motor would do the job?
Thanks Peter. I would have used a 3Ph gear motor, if I could find one small enough, as I have a couple of small VFD's. I did consider a window winder motor, but they are not set out for 100% duty cycle, and I tend to need a couple of hours of planing when milling wood for a project. I already had a stepper, but that may have been false economy.+
That will come up ok when you put a better stepper motor on it. I have independent drive for the leadscrew on my 12" swing lathe and it works fine. I'm running 24 volts on my controller and start stop reverse control board. I can get at least 0.080" doc ( 2mm) in aluminium and as much as 0.030" doc (0.75mm ) in 316 stainless steel.
Hi! I applaud the effort, but I think there is better way for this. I had 3 of these machines, drive unit on all was shit😂 the best one was with tersa head, that one is perfect finish machine. What I did to mine was this: removed original drive unit, bought variator- mechanical variable speed gear reduction motor, made new cabinet from wood, and mounted the new motor under the new cabinet top. Bought new chain, and one important thing, I made chain tensioner for the chain, because when wood goes under the rollers, the rollers go up, and you need chain to accommodate for that. So chain tensioner will allow for chain to be longer than you need,and with constand tension. Mechanical variator is very strong for the size of the motor, so you will have more than enough force for driving wood. One step after that would be to buy more powerful main motor, and have more power for wide boards and to take bigger cut in the wood. Mounting the new motor on new cabinet stand under the variator is way to save some space.
Thanks for your input. You have great points there. Making a completey new stand would allow the motor to be rotated underneath. The way is sticks out now is a pita. I have a couple of little VFD, so maybe I should keep an eye out for a small 3Ph geared motor.
@@RotarySMP Yes, vfd is also perfect for this aplication, small 3ph motors are cheap, and in most cases run forever. Just do not buy chinese motors, those are bad in my opinion. Older motors made in Europe are way to go. I use this setup on my industrial SCM machine, removed planetary drive system, and installed geared variator, best decision ever.
@@RotarySMP I did not settle to be honest, I change the rpm of feed rollers very often depending on wood I use and finish I need. But one thing you need to consider-diameter of the feed rollers. Because you need to calculate how many meters or feet per one minute you need to have for lets say moderate speed. My feed rollers are much bigger than those on inca, so for the same rpm my rollers push wood futher distance than smaller diameter ones. I will go in my workshop very soon, and I will calculate the speed of my current setup and post it in reply.
@@RotarySMP 5.2 meters per minute is the current feed setup, I can slow this to I think 1m/min on slow side, and much faster on fast side of the variator speed. But I do not use faster feed much because I want better finish on wood.
@@RotarySMP I do this sometimes. We are here to learn and sometimes we learn from our mistakes. By the way, i think you are a very talented person. Keep up the good work and don't be afraid to show your mistakes.
Hi Michel. I did suspect it, as I have had that one since the first mini lathe conversion. I need to check the specs, but think it is under 1NM, whereas you can get a 3Nm Nema 23 these days. Won't be a big deal to switch it out.
There is this video, th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html where he used a 3NM motor. Mine was an old one I already had. I'll get one of those 3NM 4.2A motors.
Could you do the maths, to work out the old RPM of that chain drive sprocket, knowing the motor speed. To help to match your final required roller feed range.
I suspect there would be a lot of slippage in that round belt. I can change the speed range easily through a wide rang by moving a jumper or two on the driver.
@@RotarySMP But that would further impact the available torque. I believe it's time to abandon the stepper idea and look for a beefy DC motor with a PWM controller...
@@RotarySMP See, at the beginning of the video I thought you will keep (at least, partly) the original reduction train, as it is well known that a stepper is not very powerful and tends to lose steps under load. Then when I saw the quasi "direct drive" at the end, I was sure even before the test run that it won't be enough to move heavy pieces of wood under a tool... here my friend you _need_ torque. Forget the bigger stepper, it's just throwing more good money after all bad you already did. I would go to a wreckyard and look for an adequate windshield wiper motor. For a few euros you have a good start point... which is capable to do the job. After, if you want to make it fancy with speed regulation, direction change etc... is up to you, but if the drive sucks, there is nothing to do!
G'day Mark. [damnit, sorry to see the stepper wasn't powerful enough. I feel your pain as someone that also has a large harem of steppers] Wood working screaming banshees of death. Two things. 1) By the direction of red lightning arrow I think the electrical box is installed upside down 😇 2) My expression when I saw that welded all thread 😦 Never assume anything about switches. I have some DC solar isolator switches that switch the power from the house solar arrays. The DC power goes in the bottom of the switch (20Amps at almost 400 volts) but comes out the top of the switch reversed. The documentation doesn't really clearly mention this and you only find that out if you're paranoid like me and use different colored conductors for DC GND and POWER (many people don't 😰) and measure everything with a multi-meter before connecting one stage to another and fully energizing the circuits.
Hi Vince. This is a pretty old stepper, so I am not surprised. I need to check the data sheet, but think it is under 1NM, whereas there are 3NM Nema 23 available today. I'll get a 3NM 4A motor, They way it tried to pull in the wood, I have a reasonable feeling that 3x the torque should work. I wonder if my industrial switch wiring would have worked if I had seen that I had the wrong ground earlier :)
I have never been to an F1. My daughters got into F1 due to "Drive to survive", so I no longer have to watch the races, but get a really funny summary from them. Went to MotoGp Brunn and Donnington about 20 years ago though. I think 2 wheels is a better viewer spectacle.
JustAnotherMakerChannel did a video showing how to increase the power on a stepper by I think joining several coils together. It decreases the number of steps per revolution. Requires setting the controller to match of course. Here is the title: Modifying Cheap Stepper Motor To Be More Powerful (28BYJ-48)
Seems like the stepper runs quite slowly under normal working conditions, maybe integrate a couple of spur gears into your revised motor assembly design to get some more torque as you have lots of headroom on motor speed.
China glass cups are garbage, had same experience with them too. They somehow draw air from somewhere, what messes up the weld. Ceramic cups and PTFE fittings only, for me.
ich habe die gleiche Maschine mit dem gleichen Problem, sehr schön dass du das hier zeigst. dann kann ich das ev. nachbauen. wobei bei mir liegt noch ein winzig kleiner Asynchronmotor mir schneckengetriebe rum... Btw: hat deine Maschine auch Tersa Messer?
Ich habe ein Paar kleine FU, und wollte ein Drehstrom Getriebemotor anwenden, habe aber kein passendes gefunden. Welche sind die Tersa Messer? Meine haben ein Kreisförmige Clearance eingeschliffen.
Wait, the motor is from Elu? Elu was sort of a competitor to Inca back in the day, but I think less expensive. I think it is quite unlikely that that part of the motor wiring is original? i've got an old jointer planer from Elu (dah 176), and it apparently suffered from the same problem, the previous owner cobbled a 12v wiper motor to the feed roller drive
I figured it would still need a PSU and a speed controller, and I already had a stepper. There is a video of someone else who did it like this, so I copied it, but he has a much stronger stepper.
I would agree that speed control is preferable so you can have fast roughing passes and slow finish passes, saves some time. Is the stepper also too weak with a generous helping of wood grease such as waxilit or silbergleit?
I see your driver is set to 1.36A (is that correct?) but I didn't seen the motor label and can't check the spec. my suggestions: 1) add more current at (in? on?) the driver. even if the motor dies due to overheating, it will be a brave death for science 2) you can 3D print a small planetary gearbox to get more torque. there is a good tool for making gears in FreeCAD
Thanks for the cross check: I thought I was jumpering the drive for 1.91A, which is the closest to the 2A motor rating. Good point to over drive the motor and see what happens. I used the Freecad gear generation tool to design a replacement part for my Do-ALL. You are right that it is a really good module in Freecad. I am still checking out my options, but adding further complication to an already overly complicated build sounds like an excellent plan :)
So close 😀. I was just looking at the stepper motor listing at a local canadian online store , the equivilant torque nema 34 motor is only half as long as the nema 23, 67mm vs 112mm would that help with fitting it under the cover? down side is C$90 vs $65.
It is Freecad.Yes, because it is open source and anyone can try it. There is an active support community. But it does have a couple of inherent design aspects which mean you have to be very rigorous in the way you model, or you build fragile models which fall apart when you need to modify a fillet etc. If only for personal work, I would use Onshape. It is really easy to learn and use. I switched to FreeCad when I monetised my channel, and using Onshape would have been against the license agreement.
Mate, I think you're onto something with the statement, "I should have done it in CAD so it was easier to do a second time." I think that may be a quote from Ben Franklin or Ghandi?
You could've drawn up that gland-plate for the electrical panel in barely a couple of minutes. I usually fixture thin plate like that using a piece scrap ply, ali or plastic beneath. 👍
@@alanrichardson1672 I don't think putting a spoil board underneath it is the problem - usually the problem is keeping it flat. I think a common technique is painter's tape on the back side of the part and on the spoil board, and then superglue them together. After you're done cutting, you heat it to release the glue, and then just peel the tape off of both sides.
its a pretty neat mechanism, but yeah doesn't seem like a great choice for the application - sure you can blame lack of maintenance but we know what happens when you rely on users to do the right thing 🤣
I guess the budget in the 1980 didn't spring for a motor speed control, for a consumer product. That drive probably works fine under idea lab conditions :)
I think that it is possible to drive a stepper motor (almost) directly from the mains 50Hz. Not at 230V (or, not for very long 🙂 ) and you would need a capacitor to drive one phase at 90 degrees phase offset. There is a (badly executed) example here: th-cam.com/video/Jfqo4HO6dLI/w-d-xo.html but with some more useful pointers in the comments. Going completely off-piste, you need a way to limit the current through the stepper, so choose a stepper with the same current rating as the main drive motor, and wire the stepper in series....
Yeah, I took them off pretty soon after that. I had been wearing them carrying the rough boards over to the band saw and back, as I'd gotten a few splinters. Thanks for the safety check.
That power supply is just what I need to power the drive motors in my Washington Metro destination roll sign from the 1970s i.imgur.com/mg8hXtj.jpg th-cam.com/video/8ONWQzEEK_Q/w-d-xo.html The other part of the project is to create a new sign roll with all of the present day destinations signs and strip maps on it. i.imgur.com/kRIMwMv.jpg
@@RotarySMP What makes it even more special is it came out of one of the money train cars before it was scrapped in 2016. The other cars of the same type had theirs replaced with LED signs back in the mid 1990s.
nice thing about that industrial switch you installed the first time is that you can stack switches on top of eachother , making it a double pole double trow
Hi Your welding is like watching a yo yo going up and down. The tig tip must stay at the same level while you drag it along the weld face the filler rod is the only thing should be going in and out. try setting the height of the tip then drag your hand along also the amps are two high.
I am curious as to why not pickup a windshield washer motor and a 12v PSU. Simple PWM speed controller and built in gearbox to give you all the torque you need.
When I was young, I always wanted Incra equipment, but it was expensive. Now, I’ve got plentry of equipment, but not Incra. Funny how that works. It’s interesting to see that they too have design problems.
Next modification could be to add a shelve below the planer and move the main motor down there (with a longer belt), that would make the combined "planer" less of an odd shape and generally eat up less floor space.
just test to umph the amp on the driver,might be enough- worst case you burn the motor..no biggie,i use to run a 3.4 amp nema 24 at 5 amps-and it held up for several years
why not just a windshield wiper motor? has torque and would save quite a bit of the electronics. Also, I really enjoy how you rush to make the cabinet and the plate holding the buttons before even trying the system. I always try first with loose cables and very often it ends up staying this way for a long time.
not necessarily, whatever challenge we set ourselves to is the point in this hobby world, right? but also yes, as much as cnc is amazing wiper and garage door motors are great for things which just need to spin slow and give some torque. pretty simple to add a buck converter to adjust the speed and double switch to analogously reverse direction. could still use your set up with it! they basically are a stupid dc motor with a big worm gear reduction
Your weldings not far off, looks like you could do a bit prep to the metal. Tig is fussy and littlest bit of mill scale or zinc from the allthread will make it tough to get the puddle to flow.
Oh that just sucks. I don't know beans, but one other disadvantage of a stepper in this application might be that the "step" nature of their rotation might lead to undesirable wave textures in the wood being operated upon. Although it'd be a huge parts swap over what you bought maybe a gear driven sinusoidal motor (BLDC or Servo) might be better. IDK
The drive rollers put a diamond pattern in the wood, which gets cut off by the blade, unless you take a too thin cut. I am not concerned about step resonance.
Disappointing for sure, but it will be nice to have the additional feature of variable feed rate once you have it working. I'm also very much looking forward to you putting a board through the planer in reverse. 😀
Thanks. Hope a stronger motor will do it. I only added the reverse control, as way to back out a stuck board without changing the set thickness. Not sure if it will ever be used.
@@RotarySMP i think and hope the reverse will not work since there is an anti kickback mechanism in the planer. (all those litle fingers infront of the first roler) They should bite into the material an lock it in place when it trys to move backwards. only way to disengage it is to lower the table.
You've done a great job and are very knowledgeable in electrical work. I have to ask though, if the original gears lasted almost 50 years wouldn't it have been easier to buy or make up replacement gears? Your solution, while clever enough on its own, seems overly complicated and I doubt with all those Chinese parts will last a fraction of the time the original gears did. Keep up the good work.
The feed back I have read is that those gear a constantly getting chewed up, and are expensive to replace. You can't really keep the lube clean, as the dust mixes in with it. The belt causes a lot of friction and heats up everything.
Hi Jim. Yeah, I am glad I didn't get too creative on the electrical stuff during the live stream. Would have sucked to electrocute myself on the internet.
Why not? There is a video of one who already this. This was a Nema 23 I had laying around. It is pretty old and under 1NM torque. You can easily get 3NM Nema 23's today.
It would be helpful to know why you think this is the case. Do you mean the motor is too small? Is it the wrong type of motor? The gearing is incorrect?
@@broglet2003 Yeah, this is the video I based my conversion om. th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html It is a much stronger motor than mine, so I'll be getting one.
I kind of suspected the motor being on the weak side. With steppers the problem is that they don't just slow down with a load, they just suddenly cease to rotate at all, they just stall. Bad for a planer, as that'd lead to rubbing of the blade on the now-stationary board.
Now that you're down the rabbit hole with steppers, it's mostly too late, but a geared DC motor with a PWM controller might have been the better choice.
Yeah, or even better a small geared 3Ph motor, as I have a couple of small VFD's. Unfortuneatly, I didnt find such a motor. This Vexta is pretty old. I need to check the spec sheet, but I think it is only about 1NM. I can now get a 3NM Nema 23, and there is this video, which shows it working:
th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html
a OLD car generator 12v variety has TONS of low speed TQ , cheap and widely available. nice cheap DC brushed motors
@@RotarySMP Thinking a VFD would already be overkill. Geared DC motors are the gold standard for wireless power tools for example, because their drawbacks like slop in the gears, low torque at low speed and speed being dependent on load aren't big problems in that application. If the bigger stepper also causes problems with stalling, I'd go for geared DC. You could keep the cabinet and power supply, just have a PWM controller with polarity reversal. Instead of stalling, it'd just get slower under high load, but at least keep moving.
I'd buy a cheap battery drill or something, I don't even know if a nema23 will be up to the task.
Mark, I cannot convey how dissapointed I am that it's not (yet) running LinuxCNC.
Not as disappointed as I am that it is not running at all :)
@@RotarySMP😂😂
@@kristofpucejdlthat's how they end movies open for a second part
When you tig, try to clean all the mildcale and rust off. You can soak your parts overnight in vinegar and it will remove the milscale and you will have clean base metal. Your tog weld won’t sizzle anymore and you won’t contaminate your tungsten. Just a helpful tip mate
Thanks Paul. I tried to grind off the mill scale and the zinc, but you are right, acid removal would have been better. I was too impatient.
Trial and error builds character. Keep at it pal you'll figure it out!!
Thanks Edward. Will do.
LOVE seeing freecad out in the wild
I am getting better with Freecad, but especially on a quick and nasty job like this, often break my model by not being rigorous enough with my drawing practice.
Thanks for the Naxos jab... (plan to go end of sept) Those Incas were sold in the US for a while and they are overall well made with the exceptions you have had to fix. They are hard to sell here because of it.
If I were doing that mod I would have used a 90VDC (90* or straight) gear motor and a KB drive for it. Basically the same motors and drives used on drum sanders. The drives are around $50 but the motors are stupid priced since they are industrial use. The motor on my drum sander died and I bought a used one and made one working one out of the two.
I love your enthusiasm on projects but on your electronics ones you tend to overengineer it sometimes.
I should have thought this through better. There is one video th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html
where a guy did it with a stepper and since I familar with steppers I copied it. I figured a geared DC motor also need a PSU, and a speed controller so it would be a wash.
The gearbox is the key though.
I also have a couple of small VFD's, and did look for a small 3Ph geared motor, as that would have been perfect, but couldn't find one for a resonable price.
@@RotarySMP I can't tell you how many projects I have done that when I was done I said why on earth did I do it the hard way...
The drive I use for the 90v motors is a KBVC-14. Obviously it's a 120V version since I'm in the US. It's about 2.5" in diameter and an inch thick and it has the potentiometer built into it and the whole thing mounts to the panel and hangs on the potentiometer. 120V in and max 90V variable output for $50 ish. Compact all in one and cheap.
But the motor that's another thing all together when it comes to pricing. They run $200+ new but I have bought them used for $50 or less.
Since you have the stepper set up already how about a gear reduction stepper motor?
@@RotarySMP just do a brushed geared 230v motor, they can be adjusted with a simple tiny enclosed triac controller for 5€ per piece.
Good morning from Lincolnshire UK 🇬🇧
Mahlzeit, from Vienna :)
This "Amazon" is a very generous viewer. Bless their heart.
Shame there is no local shop for the sort of weird mechanical junk I need.
Very cool. I hope you can do a follow-up video when you get a more powerful stepper
I'll try to include it in the next wood working project video.
I'm surprised you didnt just make new worm gears out of a stronger material but still a nice conversion. 👍👍
Yes, that's what I thought. Hobbing replacements for those nylon pinion gears would have made a good video also.
I considered it, but that does't really address the issue that the pinion shaft is a plain bearing in a very dusty environment, and therefore will always be a maintenance hog.
i love this types os modifications
Glad you enjoyed it.
Your welding might be a dog's ar$e but the filming of the welding is the dog's bo11ocks!
:)
I am not sure that is a good thing at this point in my TIG journey.
When a DC geared motor simply isn't fancy enough 😂
I have a couple of small VFD's and would have used a small 3Ph gear motor if I'd found one. :)
Dumb big geared DC motor and Variac to like 24V transformer would be my #1 solution, too.
Ah, had I known you needed a stepper and driver ... I still have the full set from when I converted my 6040 CNC to servos.
Thanks. I will try a 3MN 4.2A Nema 23 next.
You may already know this, but find a stepper with lowest inductance. I have also just used a dumb power supply with a transformer, bridge rectifier and large caps. This allows the stepper driver to do all the current limiting.
As an aside I would only use a stepper here if I had the kit lying around. I wonder if a windscreen wiper motor would do the job?
Thanks Peter. I would have used a 3Ph gear motor, if I could find one small enough, as I have a couple of small VFD's.
I did consider a window winder motor, but they are not set out for 100% duty cycle, and I tend to need a couple of hours of planing when milling wood for a project.
I already had a stepper, but that may have been false economy.+
It’s the gavel on the bolt that stopped you having a good weld
I ground off most of the Zinc, but think I missed some.
Almost there! Great work.....
Hi Jasper. Getting there.
That will come up ok when you put a better stepper motor on it. I have independent drive for the leadscrew on my 12" swing lathe and it works fine. I'm running 24 volts on my controller and start stop reverse control board. I can get at least 0.080" doc ( 2mm) in aluminium and as much as 0.030" doc (0.75mm ) in 316 stainless steel.
Yeah, I can get a Nema 23 with 3x the torque of this old stepper. th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html
Hi! I applaud the effort, but I think there is better way for this. I had 3 of these machines, drive unit on all was shit😂 the best one was with tersa head, that one is perfect finish machine. What I did to mine was this: removed original drive unit, bought variator- mechanical variable speed gear reduction motor, made new cabinet from wood, and mounted the new motor under the new cabinet top. Bought new chain, and one important thing, I made chain tensioner for the chain, because when wood goes under the rollers, the rollers go up, and you need chain to accommodate for that. So chain tensioner will allow for chain to be longer than you need,and with constand tension. Mechanical variator is very strong for the size of the motor, so you will have more than enough force for driving wood. One step after that would be to buy more powerful main motor, and have more power for wide boards and to take bigger cut in the wood. Mounting the new motor on new cabinet stand under the variator is way to save some space.
Thanks for your input. You have great points there.
Making a completey new stand would allow the motor to be rotated underneath. The way is sticks out now is a pita.
I have a couple of little VFD, so maybe I should keep an eye out for a small 3Ph geared motor.
@@RotarySMP Yes, vfd is also perfect for this aplication, small 3ph motors are cheap, and in most cases run forever. Just do not buy chinese motors, those are bad in my opinion. Older motors made in Europe are way to go. I use this setup on my industrial SCM machine, removed planetary drive system, and installed geared variator, best decision ever.
@@regodawoodstudio What roller RPM did you settle on?
@@RotarySMP I did not settle to be honest, I change the rpm of feed rollers very often depending on wood I use and finish I need. But one thing you need to consider-diameter of the feed rollers. Because you need to calculate how many meters or feet per one minute you need to have for lets say moderate speed. My feed rollers are much bigger than those on inca, so for the same rpm my rollers push wood futher distance than smaller diameter ones. I will go in my workshop very soon, and I will calculate the speed of my current setup and post it in reply.
@@RotarySMP 5.2 meters per minute is the current feed setup, I can slow this to I think 1m/min on slow side, and much faster on fast side of the variator speed. But I do not use faster feed much because I want better finish on wood.
Thanks, love a video that makes me think
Thanks for your kind feedback.
A good example of overcomplicating thing. All you needed was a motor with reduction, like a windshield wipers motor.
Yep. I didn't plan this well.
@@RotarySMP I do this sometimes. We are here to learn and sometimes we learn from our mistakes. By the way, i think you are a very talented person. Keep up the good work and don't be afraid to show your mistakes.
Great video :) lovely to watch
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks.
It must have been a bit like a cold shower when you find out that the motor wasn't strong enough.
But maybe you can count on Phil for this one too...
Hi Michel. I did suspect it, as I have had that one since the first mini lathe conversion. I need to check the specs, but think it is under 1NM, whereas you can get a 3Nm Nema 23 these days. Won't be a big deal to switch it out.
I did wonder about the size of that stepper motor. Can you determine the amount of torque the old set up supplied?
There is this video, th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html where he used a 3NM motor. Mine was an old one I already had. I'll get one of those 3NM 4.2A motors.
Could you do the maths, to work out the old RPM of that chain drive sprocket, knowing the motor speed. To help to match your final required roller feed range.
I suspect there would be a lot of slippage in that round belt. I can change the speed range easily through a wide rang by moving a jumper or two on the driver.
@@RotarySMP But that would further impact the available torque. I believe it's time to abandon the stepper idea and look for a beefy DC motor with a PWM controller...
@@janosnagyj.9540Yep, A geared motor would have been the better path from the start.
@@RotarySMP See, at the beginning of the video I thought you will keep (at least, partly) the original reduction train, as it is well known that a stepper is not very powerful and tends to lose steps under load. Then when I saw the quasi "direct drive" at the end, I was sure even before the test run that it won't be enough to move heavy pieces of wood under a tool... here my friend you _need_ torque. Forget the bigger stepper, it's just throwing more good money after all bad you already did. I would go to a wreckyard and look for an adequate windshield wiper motor. For a few euros you have a good start point... which is capable to do the job. After, if you want to make it fancy with speed regulation, direction change etc... is up to you, but if the drive sucks, there is nothing to do!
G'day Mark. [damnit, sorry to see the stepper wasn't powerful enough. I feel your pain as someone that also has a large harem of steppers]
Wood working screaming banshees of death.
Two things.
1) By the direction of red lightning arrow I think the electrical box is installed upside down 😇
2) My expression when I saw that welded all thread 😦
Never assume anything about switches. I have some DC solar isolator switches that switch the power from the house solar arrays. The DC power goes in the bottom of the switch (20Amps at almost 400 volts) but comes out the top of the switch reversed. The documentation doesn't really clearly mention this and you only find that out if you're paranoid like me and use different colored conductors for DC GND and POWER (many people don't 😰) and measure everything with a multi-meter before connecting one stage to another and fully energizing the circuits.
Hi Vince. This is a pretty old stepper, so I am not surprised. I need to check the data sheet, but think it is under 1NM, whereas there are 3NM Nema 23 available today. I'll get a 3NM 4A motor, They way it tried to pull in the wood, I have a reasonable feeling that 3x the torque should work. I wonder if my industrial switch wiring would have worked if I had seen that I had the wrong ground earlier :)
Great video as ever. Did you happen to see the F1 race today? Some day I'm going to be there! But the Verstappen juggernaut is a bit old hat by now.
I have never been to an F1. My daughters got into F1 due to "Drive to survive", so I no longer have to watch the races, but get a really funny summary from them.
Went to MotoGp Brunn and Donnington about 20 years ago though. I think 2 wheels is a better viewer spectacle.
Fair play to get it to where it is from where it was during the live stream, you must put some hours in, in the garage after work 😴😴
Yeah, this five minute job has taken me way longer than it should have :/
@@RotarySMP a wise man once told me there’s no such thing as a five minute job
Grate video as always! Nice to see the project coming along pity about the motor
Hi Luke. No big deal, I'll get a stronger motor.
I have been meaning to ask wouldn’t reversing be useless on a planer?
@@LCalleja I was just thinking of backing out a board which gets stuck, if I try too agressive a cut.
@@RotarySMPif not mistaken there is metal teeth that stop that from happening no?
@@LCalleja Duh! I never considered that. :)
JustAnotherMakerChannel did a video showing how to increase the power on a stepper by I think joining several coils together. It decreases the number of steps per revolution. Requires setting the controller to match of course. Here is the title: Modifying Cheap Stepper Motor To Be More Powerful (28BYJ-48)
Thanks. This is a pretty old motor, and you can today get Nema 23 steppers with 3x that torque of this one.
Seems like the stepper runs quite slowly under normal working conditions, maybe integrate a couple of spur gears into your revised motor assembly design to get some more torque as you have lots of headroom on motor speed.
I was also considering that if necessary.
China glass cups are garbage, had same experience with them too.
They somehow draw air from somewhere, what messes up the weld.
Ceramic cups and PTFE fittings only, for me.
That is a name brand cup I was given. I suspect the issue was not associated with my welding, than a problem with the machine :)
Hello :) What current setting did you set the jumper to on the stepper driver module?
1.91A, which is the closest it offers to the 2A motor rating.
After this and the Schaublin, how about a CNC’d plasma table?
I really dont have space for one. Shame really.
@@RotarySMP ArcDroid style should be compact enough and I saw folding table for it too.
@@marqs37 A mate is a member of a maker space with a laser, so I would probably use that.
ich habe die gleiche Maschine mit dem gleichen Problem, sehr schön dass du das hier zeigst. dann kann ich das ev. nachbauen. wobei bei mir liegt noch ein winzig kleiner Asynchronmotor mir schneckengetriebe rum... Btw: hat deine Maschine auch Tersa Messer?
Ich habe ein Paar kleine FU, und wollte ein Drehstrom Getriebemotor anwenden, habe aber kein passendes gefunden.
Welche sind die Tersa Messer? Meine haben ein Kreisförmige Clearance eingeschliffen.
gotta ask, for all of that effort why not just go with a simple ac gear motor?
I would have, if I had found one small enough. I even have a couple of small VFD's which would have been perfect for it.
Wait, the motor is from Elu? Elu was sort of a competitor to Inca back in the day, but I think less expensive. I think it is quite unlikely that that part of the motor wiring is original?
i've got an old jointer planer from Elu (dah 176), and it apparently suffered from the same problem, the previous owner cobbled a 12v wiper motor to the feed roller drive
A wiper motor would be perfect for this
I figured it would still need a PSU and a speed controller, and I already had a stepper. There is a video of someone else who did it like this, so I copied it, but he has a much stronger stepper.
I would agree that speed control is preferable so you can have fast roughing passes and slow finish passes, saves some time. Is the stepper also too weak with a generous helping of wood grease such as waxilit or silbergleit?
I see your driver is set to 1.36A (is that correct?) but I didn't seen the motor label and can't check the spec. my suggestions:
1) add more current at (in? on?) the driver. even if the motor dies due to overheating, it will be a brave death for science
2) you can 3D print a small planetary gearbox to get more torque. there is a good tool for making gears in FreeCAD
Thanks for the cross check: I thought I was jumpering the drive for 1.91A, which is the closest to the 2A motor rating. Good point to over drive the motor and see what happens.
I used the Freecad gear generation tool to design a replacement part for my Do-ALL. You are right that it is a really good module in Freecad. I am still checking out my options, but adding further complication to an already overly complicated build sounds like an excellent plan :)
So close 😀. I was just looking at the stepper motor listing at a local canadian online store , the equivilant torque nema 34 motor is only half as long as the nema 23, 67mm vs 112mm
would that help with fitting it under the cover? down side is C$90 vs $65.
The length should not be a problem, as the main motor is much longer. They sell Nema 23 with 3x this motors torque. Only €38.
I’m not familiar with the Inca brand but the initial breakdown of the system doesn’t speak real well of them. Plastic worm gears?
Yeah, that was not their best decision. The rest of the machine is really nice.
What CAD software are you using? Would you recommend it to others?
It is Freecad.Yes, because it is open source and anyone can try it. There is an active support community. But it does have a couple of inherent design aspects which mean you have to be very rigorous in the way you model, or you build fragile models which fall apart when you need to modify a fillet etc.
If only for personal work, I would use Onshape. It is really easy to learn and use. I switched to FreeCad when I monetised my channel, and using Onshape would have been against the license agreement.
@@RotarySMP thank you for the advice!
Mate, I think you're onto something with the statement, "I should have done it in CAD so it was easier to do a second time." I think that may be a quote from Ben Franklin or Ghandi?
Probably Gandi :)
more gas flow on the welds?
Thanks.
The bolt of electric symbol on the electrical panel door is upside down 😉
I sure is.
It keeps the electrons from falling out the bottom of the arrow
@@gorak9000of course, silly me 😂😂
You could've drawn up that gland-plate for the electrical panel in barely a couple of minutes. I usually fixture thin plate like that using a piece scrap ply, ali or plastic beneath. 👍
@@alanrichardson1672 I don't think putting a spoil board underneath it is the problem - usually the problem is keeping it flat. I think a common technique is painter's tape on the back side of the part and on the spoil board, and then superglue them together. After you're done cutting, you heat it to release the glue, and then just peel the tape off of both sides.
I can report the later model with planetary gear is horrible too.
I’m truly disappointed that something Swiss-made is so bad
Thanks for the feed back on that. I never encountered that improved system.
its a pretty neat mechanism, but yeah doesn't seem like a great choice for the application - sure you can blame lack of maintenance but we know what happens when you rely on users to do the right thing 🤣
I guess the budget in the 1980 didn't spring for a motor speed control, for a consumer product. That drive probably works fine under idea lab conditions :)
I think that it is possible to drive a stepper motor (almost) directly from the mains 50Hz. Not at 230V (or, not for very long 🙂 ) and you would need a capacitor to drive one phase at 90 degrees phase offset. There is a (badly executed) example here: th-cam.com/video/Jfqo4HO6dLI/w-d-xo.html but with some more useful pointers in the comments.
Going completely off-piste, you need a way to limit the current through the stepper, so choose a stepper with the same current rating as the main drive motor, and wire the stepper in series....
Hi Andy. Those are some ideas no one thinks about. Since I have a couple of small VFD's I would have used a small geared 3Ph motor if I had found one.
I'm not an expert on picking motors but why didn't you just pick one of those 24V 30RPM windscreen wiper motors? Heads up otherwise! :)
I guess it would have still needed a PSU, and a speed controller and I already had the stepper (which failed :)
just use a windshield wiper motor or a window regulator motor from a car. loads of torques and cheap.
Still needs a PSU and a speed controller. I thought I was saving as I already had the stepper. Probably false economy.
Nice
Thanks for watching.
a worm gear DC motor and a variable supply might have been the easy way
That's what I did. And it was about a million times easier than this
Well, you still need the PSU and speed controller. The difference is that the geared motor means it works :/
@@RotarySMP and a DC motor won't just "give up" like a stepper
@@fuzzy1dk I might just give up on the stepper.
@@RotarySMP the stepper would be great for a consistent speed, but it would need quite a bit of excess torque to make sure it doesn't stall
You buy lots of shop equipment .... a sheet metal sheers would be nice lol. Yust got my right after finishing a sheet metal project ):
Would be a nice tool to have.
@@RotarySMP Yes you can cut sheet metal realy precisely with no angle grinder dust.... insane tool
@@alyo3299 The problem is finding space for one.
@@RotarySMP You must be thinking of a different one.... the kind that I got are no bigger than a bench vice
@@alyo3299 I was at a maintenance hanger on Friday, and they had a guillotine with about a meter long blade :)
The results are a result of time pressures.
Yep. And poor planning :)
3d printed parts are crap 90% of the time. You should invest in a cnc plasma cutter or (if you have space) an old CNC punch press.
I like prototyping with the 3D printer, as It is an easy what to mock up and see if you have interference you didn't notice.
Hoesch posh libel dabel as it best
??
promo sm
You’ve gone this far might as well add a espresso machine to it.
:) But I'm not a coffe drinker.
Please don't wear gloves while jointing!
Yeah, I took them off pretty soon after that. I had been wearing them carrying the rough boards over to the band saw and back, as I'd gotten a few splinters. Thanks for the safety check.
That power supply is just what I need to power the drive motors in my Washington Metro destination roll sign from the 1970s
i.imgur.com/mg8hXtj.jpg
th-cam.com/video/8ONWQzEEK_Q/w-d-xo.html
The other part of the project is to create a new sign roll with all of the present day destinations signs and strip maps on it.
i.imgur.com/kRIMwMv.jpg
That roll sign is pretty cool :)
@@RotarySMP What makes it even more special is it came out of one of the money train cars before it was scrapped in 2016. The other cars of the same type had theirs replaced with LED signs back in the mid 1990s.
i found my Hex key on wednesday , after a year,,, in my bedroom in a draw
Keep looking, maybe mine are there as well :)
nice thing about that industrial switch you installed the first time is that you can stack switches on top of eachother , making it a double pole double trow
Unfortunately I didn't consider the space needed for that when I installed the cable channel.
Hi Your welding is like watching a yo yo going up and down. The tig tip must stay at the same level while you drag it along the weld face the filler rod is the only thing should be going in and out. try setting the height of the tip then drag your hand along also the amps are two high.
Thanks for the tips!
I am curious as to why not pickup a windshield washer motor and a 12v PSU. Simple PWM speed controller and built in gearbox to give you all the torque you need.
Because I already had the stepper, and "If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
It was a poor decision.
When I was young, I always wanted Incra equipment, but it was expensive. Now, I’ve got plentry of equipment, but not Incra. Funny how that works. It’s interesting to see that they too have design problems.
Yeah, the drive is not great, but the basic design is really solid.
Next modification could be to add a shelve below the planer and move the main motor down there (with a longer belt), that would make the combined "planer" less of an odd shape and generally eat up less floor space.
That is a good idea. Shame I put that cabinet right there :/
just test to umph the amp on the driver,might be enough- worst case you burn the motor..no biggie,i use to run a 3.4 amp nema 24 at 5 amps-and it held up for several years
Good point. That is a pretty old stepper. I can get one today with 3x the torque.
why not just a windshield wiper motor? has torque and would save quite a bit of the electronics.
Also, I really enjoy how you rush to make the cabinet and the plate holding the buttons before even trying the system. I always try first with loose cables and very often it ends up staying this way for a long time.
That would have been a better plan. :/
not necessarily, whatever challenge we set ourselves to is the point in this hobby world, right? but also yes, as much as cnc is amazing wiper and garage door motors are great for things which just need to spin slow and give some torque. pretty simple to add a buck converter to adjust the speed and double switch to analogously reverse direction. could still use your set up with it! they basically are a stupid dc motor with a big worm gear reduction
hey mark, any chance I could contact you directly somehow? I’d love to ask your opinion about a schaublin machine i’m contemplating to buy
@@bastieng I have an Email address on the channel "about" page.
thanks! it wasn’t appearing on the mobile app somehow. but found it and wrote you there!
Your weldings not far off, looks like you could do a bit prep to the metal. Tig is fussy and littlest bit of mill scale or zinc from the allthread will make it tough to get the puddle to flow.
I was a bit pushed for time on this project. You nailed it. I should have soaked them in vinegar over night.
21:02 Thunder hitting the skies from the ground? 🤔🤣🤣😂
Yes I though it about time to address that lightning goes both ways.
Oh that just sucks. I don't know beans, but one other disadvantage of a stepper in this application might be that the "step" nature of their rotation might lead to undesirable wave textures in the wood being operated upon. Although it'd be a huge parts swap over what you bought maybe a gear driven sinusoidal motor (BLDC or Servo) might be better. IDK
The drive rollers put a diamond pattern in the wood, which gets cut off by the blade, unless you take a too thin cut. I am not concerned about step resonance.
Haha, "shame I didn’t draw it up and do it in cnc the 1st time" been there done that
Yeah. I really need to use the Maho more.
Disappointing for sure, but it will be nice to have the additional feature of variable feed rate once you have it working.
I'm also very much looking forward to you putting a board through the planer in reverse. 😀
Thanks. Hope a stronger motor will do it. I only added the reverse control, as way to back out a stuck board without changing the set thickness. Not sure if it will ever be used.
@@RotarySMP i think and hope the reverse will not work since there is an anti kickback mechanism in the planer. (all those litle fingers infront of the first roler) They should bite into the material an lock it in place when it trys to move backwards. only way to disengage it is to lower the table.
Yeah. I didn't think that through at all. Duh!
You've done a great job and are very knowledgeable in electrical work. I have to ask though, if the original gears lasted almost 50 years wouldn't it have been easier to buy or make up replacement gears? Your solution, while clever enough on its own, seems overly complicated and I doubt with all those Chinese parts will last a fraction of the time the original gears did. Keep up the good work.
The feed back I have read is that those gear a constantly getting chewed up, and are expensive to replace. You can't really keep the lube clean, as the dust mixes in with it. The belt causes a lot of friction and heats up everything.
Did I see a “Boeing secret project” box there? 😮
I think #1 fan Nico taped that on there :)
Super cooles Projekt! Den Schrittmotor Controller bestell ich gleich mal dann muss ich nicht immer umständlich einen Arduino verwenden!
LG aus Wien
Seems to work fine, except for the weird alignmemt of the buttons.
Well that's a good start 👍
I'll get there.
Progress! I'm glad you got the switch figured out without getting zapped.
Hi Jim. Yeah, I am glad I didn't get too creative on the electrical stuff during the live stream. Would have sucked to electrocute myself on the internet.
Have been toying with the idea of using steppers when I setup power feed for my mill. This gives me enough information to be dangerous 🤣
Go for it. It is not that difficult :)
Shows how useful 3D printing can be 😀
It really is handy for capturing interference in 3D, that is not so easy to visualise.
Ah, more tools for your tools to make other tools.
Don't tell my sister :)
This will never work - sorry to be the one to tell you.
Why not? There is a video of one who already this. This was a Nema 23 I had laying around. It is pretty old and under 1NM torque. You can easily get 3NM Nema 23's today.
It would be helpful to know why you think this is the case. Do you mean the motor is too small? Is it the wrong type of motor? The gearing is incorrect?
@@broglet2003 Yeah, this is the video I based my conversion om.
th-cam.com/video/Ccj-226hPd0/w-d-xo.html
It is a much stronger motor than mine, so I'll be getting one.
Here’s hoping you get over the torque hurdle…a dedicated drive motor seems a worthy concept to me! 👍
@@624Dudley I will get it to work...I hope :)