More info: youtube has finally deigned to give me advanced features despite having this account nearly 10 years so I'll leave this pinned here, some things were left out either intentionally or for time as this video was put together in 8 days so some things got lost in editing(original recordings totalled over 4 hours) Some of those things were answered below in comments but to list some of them: >>>Adroit Maneuver buff: Didn't get discussed in full, was lost in editing. Situationally useful attack duration and finesse buff useful when there are heavy attack speed/attack duration debuffs on you. >>>Advanced Technique: Briefly mentioned but to expand. As you cast gambits 2 icon or more you gain stacks represented as a chain icon in your buffs, when the chain completes you get a stack or tier. These tiers cap out at 3 and each tier adds potency to way of spear/shield/fist-desperate combat charges capped at 4 total at best-and the damage reduction for for the free peoples. Way of spear/shield/fist is the only cashout in red. >>>Way of spear/shield/fist: mentioned multiple times but never actually used in the video, up to you how to want to use it. as far as dps is concerned you can use it in a few ways like way of spear right before cauterizing cashout, way of shield during a forced damage phase trying to sustain yourself, or some people blow way of fist early in their rotation for a slight amount more dot damage or you could save the t3 cashout of way of fist for the pickup rotation after the opening to help offset not having recklessness up just depends on preference and situation. If you don't end up using it at all its not a big deal it appears more powerful on paper than it actually is like I said in the video its just something to spend and use. In blue its just another way to trigger the dr buffs if all your other cd are down. >>>Unseen strikes: Left out completely by accident, Worthless as a cashout(as of time im making this comment) does less damage than just letting the aoe fist dots finish the only use I found for it is removing dots from a reflecting target to protect yourself. >>>Offensive strike/Combination strike/Boars rush: Left out(as dps) because they are pretty self explanatory skills just aoe immediate damage but to clarify they arent useful in a dps parse but for short term burst damage like weak trash pulls these can be more useful than loading dots on targets that will be dead in seconds. >>>First Aid: Lost in editing Warden's class effect purge (wound/disease/fear/poison) spammable but costly in power this is why dark before dawn needs to be used often in most content these days this skill needs to be used often(where appropriate) to remove constant dots and debuffs and quickly tier down tiered dots in conjunction with your group(healer/support) you should always have a stack of pots ready (and store purges if you have them) to be used at the same time or to select specific effects to be removed when there are many(fear pot for silence effect buried in dots/debuffs for example). >>>Steadfast: Mentioned briefly Warden's cc purge(was immediate last year but was changed back to fast again) >>>The dps example openings were to give an idea of the cycle and flow of warden dps, Pickup rotations(the rotations between recklessness and rapid techniques) were not shown because they are very improvisational on warden and everyone's will be different based on situation (as mentioned 1:27:15) to avoid confusion >>>The only cc available in red is ambush now so you may want the trait in yellow to instant cast it >>>Any use of the word Optimal is subjective to explicitly what was in question, this video is about showing how the class works in endgame it is not "the one build" there is not only one way to build warden. A Video about "optimizing" warden would be more about the players performance not the build, It would be several more hours at the least and would not be very "welcoming" lets just put it that way. 99% of warden is the class not the build so the hard work will need to be put in by the player, no setup of gear in the world is a substitute for player skill and class knowledge( that goes for all classes in this game) >>>A few minor verbal typos that i missed in editing that made me pull my hair out mainly in the trait section This list will be updated if needed
Thank you for this, as an altaholic the Warden is one that I kinda don't play to the full extent so having a guide like this and the fact I recently just got to 150 on my warden it'll be a great help to build to some sort of optimum level to enjoy end game content!
Thanks for the video. As a high ranked mythic raider in WoW and someone who has completed all savage content (including current) in FF14. I was looking for a more chill game and found Lotro. While the mechanics of fights are very elementary, I do find the warden fun. Nice explanation to get things going.
Glad it was helpful, Part of why Warden is the class I have put the most time into is its one of the last things in the game that has retained the complexity the game used to have. The devs have been I guess you could say Simplistic in recent years in the way of mechanics and group setup expectations, and the oversimplification of classes with questionable reworks hasn't helped. This used to be a much more complicated game akin to WoW but over the years especially after 2013 with Helms Deep adding the trait trees as opposed to previously classes being all 3 lines at the same time the game has "narrowed" in what is expected of each player and of how raid leads organize groups. Warden is probably the only class that functions more or less the same way it did before the 2013 trait trees so when I play it, it feels like the old days. The rework I feel went well in 2023 but it still needs some adjustments and bug fixes but otherwise did a good job future proofing the class from change. With that said, logically i assume they are oversimplifying to appeal to new players so they don't have 17 years of catchup to do learning the game to perform in endgame but it certainly has not made older players(like myself) happy when we remember how group content used to be in the 2007-2011 era but otherwise I'm happy to see new people coming to the game and sincerely hope the developers will once again focus on group content with the importance and scale that they used to, every mmo lives and dies by its hardcore-core playerbase. Good luck with Warden and the game
@@aegloras-1331 Well, to be fair. All MMOs have gotten simpler since launch. Including WoW and FF14. They both have had serious class trimming, simplification of talent trees, and buffs since launch. Thats just not a LOTRO thing. I think it has to be like that. In todays gaming world, people want to pick up a game and go. They dont have the patience to sit and read a thesis on optimal rotations. They basically want to get to endgame and raid. This is why I dont think LOTRO will ever be a big MMO. Its very niche. Its the opposite of accepted MMOs IMO. It puts the story/lore above combat. The older we get the less people even know about Tolkien or his lore. People to log on, raid, get loot and move on. LOTRO isnt like that. That and LOTRO is absurdly expensive as far as western MMOs. I can buy WoW/FF14 expansion (get every expansion), skip and be rich for less than 100 bucks. Due to so many outdated systems, you are going to spend hundreds in LOTRO (So many expansions you still have to buy, Journeyman riding, bag space, vault space, Virtue xp boosts, crafting boosts)(Not to mention having to pay for races and jobs). Its sad. TLDR: LOTRO is a good game, just not something for the competitive market.
The way I personally have made using masteries, in a way that feels intuitive and reduces any sort of brain lag/delay, is utilizing the three side buttons on my mouse and setting up keybindings to the corresponding skill slots. My brain knows mouse-button 4 is a spear mastery, mouse-button 5 is a shield mastery, mouse-button 6 is a fist mastery. For example: All Spear masteries (spear+spear, spear+shield, spear+fist) are on a ctrl keybind. Specifically ctrl+1, ctrl+2, ctrl+3, respectfully. I bind ctrl to one of the three side-buttons on my mouse. In my brain, when I need to chain a mastery, I'm trained to know that holding that mouse button (bound to ctrl) means "the next gambit builder is spear + something", depending on the desired gambit I would then press the next corresponding hotkey (1,2,3) for the next gambit builder (ctrl+spear, ctrl+shield or ctrl+fist). For example if I want to use a simple brink of victory, (fist, shield, fist) I can do "mouse6+2","mouse6+3". In other words, this combination is "shift+2","shift+3" keybinds, just remapped to use my mouse buttons. This would correspond to fist+shield,fist+fist.
This way, it doesn't matter how your hotbars are organized on screen. They can be a 3x3 box or shuffled all around, so long as you remap the keybinds in options. Highly recommend you save your UI and backup your LOTRO documents folder after this so you don't need to redo it on a new system, etc.
Also, this also enables you to keep your hand on your mouse for camera movement, which I believe @aegloras keeps both hands on his keyboard? Seems like a strange way to play.
First of all, I explained all this at 2:00 onward. @comment 1 this is what I was talking about setting up what works for you all of this was discussed in the setup section (1:59) and the lag section (2:00:11) this class is pretty much impossible to play in endgame unless the person playing it has some way of mentally ordering their keybinds into muscle memory. @comment 2 It doesn't matter how your hotbars are organized, I never said it did and I explicitly stated at 2:43 that I had rebound certain keys and that I had some of them on mouse keys, also you don't need to backup documents for vanilla UI that is saved server side it does not matter what system you are on, I have reinstalled lotro countless times over the years and multiple times in 2024 on multiple systems and every time everything was where I left it, if you lose all that on reinstalls its an account issue with SSG not documents. The only thing I ever need to change is 5 keys I rebind that takes me about 5 seconds everything else I have setup using default locations since I back in the day class swapped frequently and I wanted it to be universal since I always had different setups for different classes this way I didn't need to mess with plugins to order my stuff it just wasn't necessary I designed it that way. The only time you need to backup this folder is when you either have completely redone your layout and don't want to do it again or you have plugin data that you don't want to setup again both of which are neither applicable to this video or me. I intentionally left plugins out of this to not muddy the waters for new players. @comment 3 I do not keep both hands on the keyboard, I explicitly said I didn't at 2:43. playing the game in the highest levels BOTH endgame group content/raiding and PVP mouse turning is a requirement in this game I don't know where you got the idea I wasn't mouse turning watch the footage I put in the video 2:08:55 - 2:25:24 I literally put a key overlay on the left side of the screen the entire video so people could see what keys I was pressing at the bottom it says M1 M2 so...... @comment 4 I use a "whole ass keyboard" mouse as you put it for everything because I am used to it after playing this game for 17+ years I workout pretty often so the weight does not bother me lol. I use it for everything whether its different games (rainbow 6 siege/escape from tarkov/vermintide 2 all the way to old games from the 90s that do not require a mouse even like Tomb Raider I-V and Thief: The dark project/gold Thief 2 Thief fms etc etc) to doing work related things so I don't have to move my hand from my mouse to my keyboard when doing numerical calculation and I use it for internet navigation as well just in general makes my life easier I'm not really sure what the point of these comments were since its clear you didn't watch the video but I appreciate the algorithm engagement all the same lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Have a nice day
@@aegloras-1331 Did I say something you took offense to? I wasn’t being aggressive to you at all. It also wasn’t a targeted comment to you but more towards other people (not) watching your 2.5hr video, reading the comments.
Just getting into warden and will be deep diving in this great video. I have a basic question. With gambit chains being a thing, why do I see everyone start with the highest spender and going down? For ex going desolation -> surety of death -> brink of victory - > war cry. Shouldn't it be the other way around if war cry buffs brink of victory etc?
Ascending order gambit chains are gone with the rework, now gambit "chains" are just consecutively using gambits in combat to tier up advanced technique. The order no longer matters or the sequence, as for why some people start high to low, its both a combination of preference and usually the highest cost skills tend to take up the most space in the rotation so its good to get them out of the way early. so for example desolation has the longest icon sequence(taking up 2 or 3 masteries unless used with rapid techniques) and has a long animation(you see me cut it with shield slam multiple times in the video) then surety and brink have the same animation and less cost, and war cry after the rework had its animation cut in half so its good to end with moving into the next sequence because the short animation will blend better. resounding challenge is another one I weave in that sequence since it is similar in scope and function and it also has a long animation so I may decide to cut that instead of desolation but long story short as far as dps is concerned I just want them out of the way as fast as possible to move forward with the rotation. The old gambit chain buffs are completely gone now(and most of them were worthless and not worth doing) so the method of high to low is quite old and has been done for a long time for the reasons listed above. If you see any tooltips referencing those chain buffs, they are outdated and no longer correct so you can ignore them.
I was expecting someone to ask this at some point, I have played most roles at most of the older expansion caps at one point or another but that was back in the day many years ago and the game was very different then(Warden didn't exist til moria, I played hunter and guard mainly in SOA). However I did briefly play tri role captain(pre captain rework) on treebeard (angmar 50) the situation at that time was that very little was done to up the difficulty on those instances(due to multiple stat reworks HD trait trees class reworks etc screwing balance up over the last decade) even the new t2 and t3 versions of some of the content were far too easy, people were 1-3 manning some of them(thaurlach) just due to the sheer amount of healing and dps output that exists now that is tuned for the live servers which allowed phase skipping and bypass of mechanics among other things. As far as "optimal" gear on legendary servers someone else will have to help you with that I haven't played on one for a few years since treebeard but I expect its mostly the same. Since essence gear is very rare or non existant at those levels its hard to choose what stats you want, you have the do the old method of finding each piece the developers made with the stats you want and min maxing how you want it, for tanking at that level that essentially means pieces with the highest mitigation(tactical will be what you want to prioritize) and anything with high vit and morale as well as virtues and buffs with the same. I also recall it was possible to get insanely high resists on the legendary servers(50+%) making some content that was hard in 2007 afkable now I don't know if they fixed or changed that, but I digress That content was not designed for everyone to have capped stats so with the excess stat bloat that is available now its very easy to have far more mitigation and health(and damage and healing) than the devs ever forsaw being possible back in 2007 For Traits(assuming we are talking about warden here) you are going to have far less points than what is achievable on live so you will not be able to achieve anywhere near what I showed in this video. You will want to focus on getting your capstone skill for whatever line you are playing in skimping any points out of anything not immediately useful(only 5 points are needed to advance trait tiers the line doesn't need to be maxed) and any leftover points you want to get as deep into yellow as possible. you will want the marked/diminished debuff and strong foundations as the class is designed to be played with mastery resets for over a decade now anything else you can get is a bonus Warden is an anomaly in SOA in 2007 the developers didn't have self sufficient hybrid tank/dps in their vision so you will find that there are pieces of content that are utterly roflmaoable on warden and after the warden rework being able to get more mitigation than some heavy armors it may very well be the most broken class at that level cap so as far as tanking is concerned you should have no issues assuming you meet the bare minimum of having enough mits and morale to not get one shot by forced damage which is not a high bar at that level. hope that helps and good luck
Warden is mid st lv 50. Classes are too strong and with Warden being DoTs, bosses die too quickly for a DPS role. Tanking is just fine because "tank" classes are all close together for any one to stand out. Guardian is still the S-Tier but Captain, Warden, Bear, are all A/S-Tier as well at lv 50.
A bit late but hope you will see. First what virtues you use as red. I use Compassion, Loyalty, Fidelity, Valour, Wit but not sure. Second I am man red and now on lotro wiki says master spear training increases +2% dmg and not +7%. Man sword extra +5% sounds like big difference. Should I than use sword LI?
Regarding the wiki that specific page you mentioned is outdated lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Master_Spear_Training This page was last edited on 22 September 2016, at 13:58. at the bottom of the page. Quite a few wiki pages are outdated or flat out incorrect from the start while its good to use as a resource to identify things in game much of the info needs double verified. Most of the Warden class page has been incorrect since it was even added so I tend to steer people away from it. The specific spear change that made it 7% was added in the last year so it won't be on there. Spear and sword(with trait) are on par bonus wise the only reason I went to spear for dps over sword after 16+ years of using sword is the animation changes for spear. Spear is now exponentially faster in everything so depending on how fast you are spear may be better for you but stat wise they are more or less identical so choose what you like. The difference is not so huge that you can do one thing you can't with the other just it will bug me to no end if I find a faster way to do something and I'm not using it(if its worth the effort). Virtues are very flexible usually you just want to use what compliments your build, in other words gives you the most space in your build. For that reason most people over the years have tended to use the traits that give the most mitigation and vit/morale because it usually works out to be with buffs/food/etc the more efficient for meeting the bare minimum of mitigation and morale for forced damage in group content, and then they finish their damage/crit/etc with gear/essences/lis. To elaborate on that, like I said in the video most people will want to overcap mits as low as the content requires to leave as much room for dps stats as possible and the way the virtues are balanced(right now) they tend to be more defense\offense slated so that is how most people set them up to leave more room in the main part of the build gear/essences/lis to be focused on dps. Wit was added in later for another source of finesse so if your build stands to benefit from that it can be slotted. Ultimately you can set them up however you want, as far as min maxing is concerned the difference between "this way or that way" is minuscule when you come out on the end as long as you get to the finish line so to speak it doesn't really matter how you got there, lotro is very good about that sort of thing vs other games that generally have everyone obsessing over some sort of "meta". If you decide you want to pull your hair out in front of a calculator to discover whats 0.1% more effective for your setup that is your prerogative. I spent many sleepless nights doing just that to try and make my builds better over the years but its certainly not fun I was using Tolerance Fidelity Loyalty Honor Compassion in both red and blue to make me inherently tankier on the backend leaving gear and lis more open to set up as I wished, and then dropping in a few extra tact mit essences(primarily red) into extra essence slots as needed when the content I was running had heavy tactical forced damage and I wanted to ensure I was over the minimum hardcap threshold I needed to be. I chose them for primarily tact mit(more important in 99% of endgame and phys is easier to cap) and morale pushing(pre stat changes I managed to get 4,750,000 morale buffed in blue post stat changes I was sitting 430,000-475,000 morale fully buffed(depending on group setup)(raid setting) for reference
@@aegloras-1331 Thanks a lot on such a beautiful replay as I did not even think you would replay at all. Warden saved me as I almost quit lotro because I could not find a single class that I would call main (falling asleep playing red champ) and after trying Warden I am in love with both class and game again. He was last one I tested. Spear / sword thing makes me happy as I prefer spear because of animations as with it character keeps shield static in front of him that looks more Warden like while with all other one handers he flails around with it with each attack and on top of bleed and faster animations I am sticking with spear. Just wished there are more options for spear outfits compared to swords. I remember you saying how squishy warden is in video despite looking tanky with shield and it could not be more correct so I think I will remove those 2 offensive virtues as dmg is not problem and put all 5 defensive as you did so that I will have them already rdy when I hit max lvl and fill stats I miss with gear. Cheers mate!
hi there! i'm a returning player who keeps bouncing off because i made the slight mistake of picking warden as my first/main character. I'm glad i found this guide but I think I need a new player or non-endgame guide first. do you have any recommendations? or even, is that a video you would make? thank you!
Yes this is an issue I've heard many times from people that picked warden first, even experienced raiders from other mmos have come to lotro and played warden as their first character and quit the game soon after. It is definitely not the class I'd recommend learning the game on unless it's all you are interested in. As far as new player guides I hadn't considered making one myself because I felt that category was oversaturated and in the grand scheme of things accurate information is more important in endgame than it is early game so thats why I was more worried about it. Ive stopped in recent years recommending anything I'm not personally in control of to anyone because every time I do that immediately after the author of said service or material does something enormously stupid that I don't want to be associated with. As im sure you've noticed there are thousands of random guides for this game on youtube but as to any I consider good enough to send someone to, I couldn't tell you because I don't have time to watch through them all and make sure I'm giving you good information. Majority of why I made this video is my disgust with people in game, on youtube, and in various other sites posting either misleading information or just outright lying about the game, it has become a major issue in recent years but thats not a lotro thing thats a planet earth thing. With all that said, there are many beginner level warden videos on youtube that show basic gambit usage and gameplay well enough, but My recommendation for learning warden from scratch is just playing through the game and exploring the classes capabilities naturally. The hardest thing people starting out on warden need to learn is the muscle memory because of the nature of the gambit system if you want to keep up with other classes whose skill plays are one and done you have to be confident knowing where everything in your setup is and that is something you can only achieve through practice and first hand experience. To give some examples, when I started playing warden there was a period of about 3 days where I sat in the same spot in the northern bree fields practicing gambits over and over til I could perform them without looking at the screen only then did I continue with leveling, every time I unlocked a new gambit I did the same with it until it was effortless. I would manufacture scenarios in which a certain gambit was useful so like when a pull or mechanic called for it and I would make sure I was fully exploiting every tool I had applicable to the situation. Later in the game when things got harder, I made it a point to approach things as hard as possible, like full pulling camps, soloing instances, giving myself time limits etc that is how you learn where the lines are and what is possible, and that goes for all classes not just warden. your methods may vary you have to do what works for you. Warden is the largest investment in the game and it is completely unique from all the other classes not just in lotro but all mmos. It's up to you what class you decide to go with just I recommend whatever you do pick you stick with it until you get deeper into the game because I have seen people that start this game and try to juggle multiple classes at the same time and they either A get overwhealmed and don't learn the game because they keep class hopping without experience ultimately quiting around level 30 when the game starts getting harder or B they progress insanely slow and take years upon years to level and never get anywhere. I don't know how far along you are in the game from your comment, but this guide was angled toward people that were still new or returning but had mastered the basics and wanted direction for working toward endgame content, so you may want to return to it once you get more comfortable this is ABSOLUTELY NOT something people starting out/starting over should be working toward yet, I don't want you to feel like you have unrealistic expectations upon you. As far as me making any more guides, Both a comprehensive mmo class/ mechanics guide and a raiding/group content mechanics and composition setup guide were things I had on the pipe dream list but I just did not have the time or the conditions to create a video I deemed of acceptable enough quality yet, I've been away from the game and life in general since this was posted, only answering questions while I still have internet access. Whether those or any other guides will ever get made, I need to see how the next few months go but atm things are looking bleak so don't expect them I hope that helped and good luck to you with the game
Its complicated to explain so get ready for a text wall. Historically Warden is one of the two "main tank" classes and the rest of the tank capable classes are regarded as "off tanks". Now, balance issues over the years primarily have blurred the lines here and captain(balance and niche cds) drifted into the "main tank" position for many comps for many years(pretty much late 2017ish until the rework last year that pushed it back into offtank territory). During those years warden had major balance issues to put it lightly and it was not viable as a tank at all for that period, during this time beorning sort of took its spot as a more heal tank adaptable support tank just for lack of better alternative and with the addition of brawler later it mostly became the desired off tank for the sole reason of the gut punch debuff. Primarily(as of right now and recent years) guard will nearly always be main tank because after its rework its just too good not to use in that role, and any other tanks taken will nearly always be chosen based upon the buffs/debuffs/utility they bring to the group not necessarily the survivability(all tanks atm have good enough survivability to be VIABLE but not always OPTIMAL) With that as a preface: At the time I'm typing this Warden is the optimal off tank both in survivability(99% of situations) and damage increasing buffs/debuffs. between marked diminished being permanent fire at will being resettable and on demand battering strikes being permanent and with the current raid set desperate spear being 10% for 40 seconds aoe warden is the optimal in the off tank position. That does not mean it cannot main tank, just as I said there is no reason not to have gaurd be the main tank at the moment its just too good.(except niche situations like last stand cheesing in which case captain is best) "how good is warden survivability?": It depends on the player. If the class is played properly at the skill cap(the point where the player is flawless)Warden has the best self sustain capability and long term longevity potential(being able to provide for yourself) Warden will take more damage hit for hit than most other tanks but is the hands down #1 in recovering from that hit and at the moment the way cooldowns work it is possible to have 1 cooldown always running if properly cycled where as all other tanks have a period of downtime. Gaurd and Captain will take less damage per hit, but are nowhere near as good at recovering. To give you an example Halls of black lore t4/t5 the final boss's execute phase gives insane dread and takes you down to like 10% max morale Gaurd and captain will survive as long as they have cds and healer support but the moment its gone they are dead, but warden has such high hps that even with no healer its possible to survive with 10% max morale and everytime you get hit you just bounce back to full health. This is where the issue of Warden comes in. Effort. You have to manage dozens of things and function mentally and physically nearly perfect to perform at this level at all times where as other tanks have to manage usually less than 5 things. You can teach a new guardian tank to play competently in higher tier in an afternoon, It takes months(at least) to get a new warden privy to high tier tanking so if someone were to ask "why is it worth it to bother then if another tank is so much easier?" the answer is because if you have a player that can pull it off, It is the optimal group setup(for dps output) and you have all the self sustain and niche capability warden has to offer. The reason why most hardcore groups don't have or take a warden is not because its not a good enough class or its not useful, its because between lag and the non-existant margin for error almost no one wants to play the class. It is no contest the hardest class and its not for everyone and its without a doubt the heaviest investment in the game. The tradeoff is it can do things no other class can. "Can Warden compete with a Beorning Tank?": For the sake of the question lets assume the same person is playing both classes, Warden beats Beorning in personal survivability by a large margin Warden outheals beorning in self healing(both the blue self healing and yellow beorning group healing) by a ratio of more than 10:1. I compared my self heal parses(combat analysis) in group content against various Beorning healing parses from april 2023 until december 2023 and was absolutely astonished with how little they were putting out compared to rk/minstrel. The main reason beorning healers are taken is for the cross healing potential in raids and their utility but as far as supporting a tank is concerned If you ask me they are the worst healer. For cooldowns beorning tank has multiple situationally strong cds(anything bpe is usually worthless against main bosses)but they have short up times and long cds meaning for extended survival beorning burns out its options fast and will need to swap off quicker to another tank(or die) Wardens cds are designed to always be useful in someway and they if cycled have high uptime allowing for extended periods of protection meaning warden can withstand pressure longer than beorning Mitigations if you built similar to how I mentioned in the stats and gear section the mitigations between the two will be similar. Most of what warden does is self centered based upon ones own survival whereas most of what beorning does is mixed bag group utility. Warden was designed in the beginning to be a hardcore mobile melee tank/dps hybrid and as one of the 2 "main tanks". Beorning was designed to be an amalgamation of roles meant to please a variety of players and was never intended to be a main anything(dpser,tank/healer) Brawler and mariner are in the same boat being utility and support oriented instead of main role. Ironically the most common role beorning is seeing recently is dps because since its last rework its sustained dps is quite good. My tank tierlist atm looks like Gaurd->Too good not to use as main, not that it is better at everything, it has poor self sustain Warden-Captain-> Warden and captain tied for slot depending on scenario warden better for dps increase captain better for group protecting Brawler-Beorning-> Brawler-Beorning tied if warden/captain not taken brawler is simple and mainly for gut punch beorning has lots of group utility and buffs/debuffs Champion-> needs a rework desperately has not been properly updated in over a decade but is still semi viable very few players playing atm I know That was extremely long but i didnt see a way to accurately answer your questions in few words. The developers seem to have been flip flopping in the last few years whether they want specific classes to be main roles(traditional mmo) or have every class be able to do every role. This game has always expected certain classes be played certain ways and the dual or tri viability is very new to lotro and lack of development time on hasty changes has hurt the games balance. They seem to want to phase out supports and make them dps with extra debuffs which is disturbing because its the antithesis of how a traditional mmo works but at this point I'm just happy the game is still running. Hope that helps *The statements I made in this post were accurate at the time I made them I'm not responsible for changes to the game after the fact **all hypothetical scenarios posed were assuming high tier content with large hit for hit from boss(es) and constant healer/support required ***all class hypotheticals were assuming players were at equal skill levels and we are purely talking about class capability not player skill ****Every statement I made is either personal experience and/or cross examined with people I consider to be colleagues to avoid flukes in data. *****I'm not a lawyer I promise lmao
@@aegloras-1331 thank you very much for your very detailed answer! I appreciate it a lot! You made it clear that warden is the right choice for me! I want a tank that has amazing self sustain and lives and dies by its own skill. I will embark on my journey to become the best warden i can be! Thank you again for this guide and the time you have taken to help me!
No, I left some things out because I saw them as beginner oriented when this video was meant to be oriented toward people that had been playing for at least a while on warden and wanted to know more specifically which direction they should be going for endgame. Looking back I probably should have because the developers barely documented it as a new mechanic and its pretty crucial to tanking now. As far as AT goes as you cast gambits 2 icon or more you gain stacks represented as a chain icon in your buffs, when the chain completes you get a stack or tier. These tiers cap out at 3 and each tier adds potency to way of spear/shield/fist-desperate combat charges capped at 4 total at best-and the damage reduction for for the free peoples. Way of spear/shield/fist is the only cashout in red. As I said in the video you ideally want to wait til you are at tier 3 to spend these skills for maximum potency but there are exceptions for emergencies. As far as Adroit Maneuver is concerned, I intended to mention it in the video but it got overlooked in the mess of rushing together everything and editing. It is useful in several situations, for tanking it can save you if there are extremely heavy attack speed debuffs, once there are enough of them you pretty much can't attack anymore and it can get you killed and adroit can bring back functionality, there is a case of that in den of pughlak if you get the flooded tavern room, For dps you can use it if you want it doesn't take so much time to make a huge difference in dps its just not overly needed as between the animation changes with the rework and group buffs that increase speed you will be very fast already but its up to you. Me personally I typically only use it when there is some attack speed debuff and I want to negate it but that is rare as in recent years the developers haven't used this mechanic much. And about the audio in your other comment, As I said in the description I apologize, I rushed this together in about 8 days and OBS was not cooperating so in order to not have either baby rap squeeky sounds or immense backround noise that sounds like the amazon rain forest this is how the audio had to be without more time to tinker with it, it bothers me more than you trust me. Even the audio that came out "good" is heavily distorted and not indicative of my natural speaking voice which probably made me harder to understand for some people. I Had an emergency come up that required I drop everything so in the 8 days I had to do this the outcome was less than what I would have wanted but whats done is done. Thanks for watching
@@aegloras-1331 thanks for a detailed answer. It's very hard to get any decent guides for this game. Would you know if there is any discord or theorycrafting and meta-oriented group out there? I might stick around and I'd rather optimise myself and learn as fast as I can.
@@AlecFortescue There have been many over the years but as to any currently active or reputable I cannot personally attest at the moment. The old lotro forums had a lot of invaluable information but I checked before I made this comment and I'm not sure if the .old link is still working or if that part of the site is still in operation. Your best bet for finding authentic information would be trying to get into a reputable raiding kin(I can't speak to what x kin's requirements may be other than the ones I've been in/worked with-most of which are now in maintenance mode)most kins doing group content are willing to help new players if they are genuinely interested. The lack of authentic and true information these days is part of why I made this video, The game has changed drastically since the old information was put out and most of what is new is completely wrong or at best misleading. Even going way back toward 2007 this game has always had a very secretive community and typically anything of import in the way of knowledge was achieved either by personal experience or through personal teaching between players particularly pvp and endgame group content. Most of the top level wardens in the game have been self taught(myself included) and over time as the game changed and more information was made available standards emerged that were generally agreed upon and that's what most of the information in this video is. Majority of the older players have either moved on or rarely play anymore and there is a gap that exists now between old players (2007-) and players that have just recently started (2020-) and most of that knowledge has been lost or only exists now in small private circles so I fully understand a new players frustration with lack of information. It seemed almost as though there would no longer be any wardens in endgame once the last few of us were gone so I felt an obligation to attempt to course correct with this video and steer people in the right direction so that new players would not be ostracized by the ignorant that i spoke of at the start of the video. I know that was probably vague and cryptic but its the best I can do in this public format. Lotro is a unique game with a unique community and despite the changes over the years that have upset older players there is still nothing like it out there and probably never will be again(otherwise I wouldn't have put 17 years of my life into it lol) so I encourage anyone that has the opportunity to play through the game as much as they can and enjoy it. I met some of the best people I've ever met in my life through this game and learned things I never would have anywhere else, if I had to do it over again I would change nothing. Edit: I got it to work forums-old.lotro.com/forums/forum.php Like i said most of it may be outdated but there is decades of information there, You are certain to find something valuable. Probably the largest surviving record of this games history along with the lotro wiki
@@jamesp1136 If you read the description and/or some of the comments I replied to you'd have your answer. TH-cam just recently added stable audio to this video without my knowledge or consent so any audio issues that arise now you can blame on them. I had it perfectly balanced to where it needed to be before hand so if you think its too quiet turn it on, if its too loud turn it off.
No, I was more concentrated on explaining what I was doing during the example openings. In real content as far as dps is concerned you can use it in a few ways like way of spear right before cauterizing cashout, way of shield during a forced damage phase trying to sustain yourself, or some people blow way of fist early in their rotation for a slight amount more dot damage or you could save the t3 cashout of way of fist for the pickup rotation after the opening to help offset not having recklessness up just depends on preference and situation. If you don't end up using it at all its not a big deal it appears more powerful on paper than it actually is like I said in the video its just something to spend and use. In blue its just another way to trigger the dr buffs if all your other cd are down.
dps warden rotatoin is actually based on your shortest dot besides spear of fate. When watching expert parse videos its around 30-36 seconds. Just a heads up. Not easy but correct mastery planning is required sadly.
I explained in the video the condition in which its advantageous to weave shorter dots first(1:23:13) (1:24:24). I also showed an example of one such rotation. In addition to that, I explained why I prefer wave building and why its typically more pertinent in a real setting and not static training dummy parses which are typically meaningless in reality, which was the point of the video. Warden dps is typically taken in an auxiliary role not as a main dpser because of the wave like nature of its peak burst line up-what you should be shooting for since if you try to sustain with a long duration rotation that does not symmetrically match up in dot duration, you will end up short stroking yourself and doing less damage overall. This is why minstrel/hunter/fire rk/red guard etc are taken as main dpsers at the moment and not wardens due to short skill cds and more naturally flowing rotations to maintain a perfect sustain hence why I said dps warden is taken in auxiliary role, similar to red captain or red burglar. I've never heard of or seen an "expert" that will short stroke their maximum potential especially during limited time oathbreaker windows that come in phases with boss health just so they can repeat more smoothly while missing numerous skills they could be playing in said rotation for a larger overall parse. The point of the video was to provide reality oriented information taking into account specific instance/stress/lag/circumstance/common scenarios/etc instead of a several hour recording, controlled environment parse that, from your description would result in dps loss that even if it didn't generously assuming would still not be practical in real practice in group content. Thanks for watching, if you did.
yeah, on champ i just push the same button many times for skill i want to execute, so i can handle slow and wrong skills order which lag produce. but when i watch some parses i cant understand how ppl get those numbers. i should try mordor server on beta to see how it plays with proper ping, not 130-140ms i have for years
Unless they decide to add more, 3 ways: way of spear/shield/fist-desperate combat-for the free peoples. The only way to consume in red is way of spear/shield/fist. Like I said in the video ideally you want to consume at tier 3 for max potency on those skills but there are exceptions per situation i.e getting desperate spear faster if you don't have time to wait and you need/want the extra group output, shield for emergency burst heal or force taunt, fist for stunning something important etc
I've been away from the game since this was uploaded dealing with something of a shitfest irl, just checking for questions for as long as I'll continue to have internet. If the next few months calm down I'll probably be back so If you happen to be on Evernight I may be able to help but the timetable is not concrete yet
More info: youtube has finally deigned to give me advanced features despite having this account nearly 10 years so I'll leave this pinned here, some things were left out either intentionally or for time as this video was put together in 8 days so some things got lost in editing(original recordings totalled over 4 hours) Some of those things were answered below in comments but to list some of them:
>>>Adroit Maneuver buff: Didn't get discussed in full, was lost in editing. Situationally useful attack duration and finesse buff useful when there are heavy attack speed/attack duration debuffs on you.
>>>Advanced Technique: Briefly mentioned but to expand. As you cast gambits 2 icon or more you gain stacks represented as a chain icon in your buffs, when the chain completes you get a stack or tier. These tiers cap out at 3 and each tier adds potency to way of spear/shield/fist-desperate combat charges capped at 4 total at best-and the damage reduction for for the free peoples. Way of spear/shield/fist is the only cashout in red.
>>>Way of spear/shield/fist: mentioned multiple times but never actually used in the video, up to you how to want to use it. as far as dps is concerned you can use it in a few ways like way of spear right before cauterizing cashout, way of shield during a forced damage phase trying to sustain yourself, or some people blow way of fist early in their rotation for a slight amount more dot damage or you could save the t3 cashout of way of fist for the pickup rotation after the opening to help offset not having recklessness up just depends on preference and situation. If you don't end up using it at all its not a big deal it appears more powerful on paper than it actually is like I said in the video its just something to spend and use. In blue its just another way to trigger the dr buffs if all your other cd are down.
>>>Unseen strikes: Left out completely by accident, Worthless as a cashout(as of time im making this comment) does less damage than just letting the aoe fist dots finish the only use I found for it is removing dots from a reflecting target to protect yourself.
>>>Offensive strike/Combination strike/Boars rush: Left out(as dps) because they are pretty self explanatory skills just aoe immediate damage but to clarify they arent useful in a dps parse but for short term burst damage like weak trash pulls these can be more useful than loading dots on targets that will be dead in seconds.
>>>First Aid: Lost in editing Warden's class effect purge (wound/disease/fear/poison) spammable but costly in power this is why dark before dawn needs to be used often in most content these days this skill needs to be used often(where appropriate) to remove constant dots and debuffs and quickly tier down tiered dots in conjunction with your group(healer/support) you should always have a stack of pots ready (and store purges if you have them) to be used at the same time or to select specific effects to be removed when there are many(fear pot for silence effect buried in dots/debuffs for example).
>>>Steadfast: Mentioned briefly Warden's cc purge(was immediate last year but was changed back to fast again)
>>>The dps example openings were to give an idea of the cycle and flow of warden dps, Pickup rotations(the rotations between recklessness and rapid techniques) were not shown because they are very improvisational on warden and everyone's will be different based on situation (as mentioned 1:27:15) to avoid confusion
>>>The only cc available in red is ambush now so you may want the trait in yellow to instant cast it
>>>Any use of the word Optimal is subjective to explicitly what was in question, this video is about showing how the class works in endgame it is not "the one build" there is not only one way to build warden. A Video about "optimizing" warden would be more about the players performance not the build, It would be several more hours at the least and would not be very "welcoming" lets just put it that way. 99% of warden is the class not the build so the hard work will need to be put in by the player, no setup of gear in the world is a substitute for player skill and class knowledge( that goes for all classes in this game)
>>>A few minor verbal typos that i missed in editing that made me pull my hair out mainly in the trait section
This list will be updated if needed
By far the most comprehensive and detailed guide for warden. A legendary video for a legendary class!
The clear and concise info and the notable optimized dps rotations shared in this video are impressive! Thank you so much for sharing.
Thank you for this, as an altaholic the Warden is one that I kinda don't play to the full extent so having a guide like this and the fact I recently just got to 150 on my warden it'll be a great help to build to some sort of optimum level to enjoy end game content!
Wow what a video. Warden is my main and still learned a lot and remembered some of the stuff. Thank you very much.
Thanks for the video. As a high ranked mythic raider in WoW and someone who has completed all savage content (including current) in FF14. I was looking for a more chill game and found Lotro. While the mechanics of fights are very elementary, I do find the warden fun. Nice explanation to get things going.
Glad it was helpful, Part of why Warden is the class I have put the most time into is its one of the last things in the game that has retained the complexity the game used to have. The devs have been I guess you could say Simplistic in recent years in the way of mechanics and group setup expectations, and the oversimplification of classes with questionable reworks hasn't helped. This used to be a much more complicated game akin to WoW but over the years especially after 2013 with Helms Deep adding the trait trees as opposed to previously classes being all 3 lines at the same time the game has "narrowed" in what is expected of each player and of how raid leads organize groups. Warden is probably the only class that functions more or less the same way it did before the 2013 trait trees so when I play it, it feels like the old days. The rework I feel went well in 2023 but it still needs some adjustments and bug fixes but otherwise did a good job future proofing the class from change.
With that said, logically i assume they are oversimplifying to appeal to new players so they don't have 17 years of catchup to do learning the game to perform in endgame but it certainly has not made older players(like myself) happy when we remember how group content used to be in the 2007-2011 era but otherwise I'm happy to see new people coming to the game and sincerely hope the developers will once again focus on group content with the importance and scale that they used to, every mmo lives and dies by its hardcore-core playerbase.
Good luck with Warden and the game
@@aegloras-1331 Well, to be fair. All MMOs have gotten simpler since launch. Including WoW and FF14. They both have had serious class trimming, simplification of talent trees, and buffs since launch. Thats just not a LOTRO thing.
I think it has to be like that. In todays gaming world, people want to pick up a game and go. They dont have the patience to sit and read a thesis on optimal rotations. They basically want to get to endgame and raid.
This is why I dont think LOTRO will ever be a big MMO. Its very niche. Its the opposite of accepted MMOs IMO. It puts the story/lore above combat. The older we get the less people even know about Tolkien or his lore. People to log on, raid, get loot and move on. LOTRO isnt like that.
That and LOTRO is absurdly expensive as far as western MMOs. I can buy WoW/FF14 expansion (get every expansion), skip and be rich for less than 100 bucks. Due to so many outdated systems, you are going to spend hundreds in LOTRO (So many expansions you still have to buy, Journeyman riding, bag space, vault space, Virtue xp boosts, crafting boosts)(Not to mention having to pay for races and jobs). Its sad.
TLDR: LOTRO is a good game, just not something for the competitive market.
this helped a lot not picking a warden :D it seems like a head ache for me...but you explain these things very good !
It's basically a 2 and half hour video, on why no one plays a warden. lol
The most detailed and exceptional guide for warden exist!
champs back to dual wielding, wardens back to spear. kudos for guide
The way I personally have made using masteries, in a way that feels intuitive and reduces any sort of brain lag/delay, is utilizing the three side buttons on my mouse and setting up keybindings to the corresponding skill slots. My brain knows mouse-button 4 is a spear mastery, mouse-button 5 is a shield mastery, mouse-button 6 is a fist mastery. For example:
All Spear masteries (spear+spear, spear+shield, spear+fist) are on a ctrl keybind. Specifically ctrl+1, ctrl+2, ctrl+3, respectfully. I bind ctrl to one of the three side-buttons on my mouse. In my brain, when I need to chain a mastery, I'm trained to know that holding that mouse button (bound to ctrl) means "the next gambit builder is spear + something", depending on the desired gambit I would then press the next corresponding hotkey (1,2,3) for the next gambit builder (ctrl+spear, ctrl+shield or ctrl+fist).
For example if I want to use a simple brink of victory, (fist, shield, fist) I can do "mouse6+2","mouse6+3". In other words, this combination is "shift+2","shift+3" keybinds, just remapped to use my mouse buttons. This would correspond to fist+shield,fist+fist.
This way, it doesn't matter how your hotbars are organized on screen. They can be a 3x3 box or shuffled all around, so long as you remap the keybinds in options.
Highly recommend you save your UI and backup your LOTRO documents folder after this so you don't need to redo it on a new system, etc.
Also, this also enables you to keep your hand on your mouse for camera movement, which I believe @aegloras keeps both hands on his keyboard? Seems like a strange way to play.
I have a razor basilisk mouse. By no means an MMO mouse. I don't need another whole ass keyboard on the side of my mouse making it bulky.
First of all, I explained all this at 2:00 onward.
@comment 1 this is what I was talking about setting up what works for you all of this was discussed in the setup section (1:59) and the lag section (2:00:11) this class is pretty much impossible to play in endgame unless the person playing it has some way of mentally ordering their keybinds into muscle memory.
@comment 2 It doesn't matter how your hotbars are organized, I never said it did and I explicitly stated at 2:43 that I had rebound certain keys and that I had some of them on mouse keys, also you don't need to backup documents for vanilla UI that is saved server side it does not matter what system you are on, I have reinstalled lotro countless times over the years and multiple times in 2024 on multiple systems and every time everything was where I left it, if you lose all that on reinstalls its an account issue with SSG not documents. The only thing I ever need to change is 5 keys I rebind that takes me about 5 seconds everything else I have setup using default locations since I back in the day class swapped frequently and I wanted it to be universal since I always had different setups for different classes this way I didn't need to mess with plugins to order my stuff it just wasn't necessary I designed it that way. The only time you need to backup this folder is when you either have completely redone your layout and don't want to do it again or you have plugin data that you don't want to setup again both of which are neither applicable to this video or me. I intentionally left plugins out of this to not muddy the waters for new players.
@comment 3 I do not keep both hands on the keyboard, I explicitly said I didn't at 2:43. playing the game in the highest levels BOTH endgame group content/raiding and PVP mouse turning is a requirement in this game I don't know where you got the idea I wasn't mouse turning watch the footage I put in the video 2:08:55 - 2:25:24 I literally put a key overlay on the left side of the screen the entire video so people could see what keys I was pressing at the bottom it says M1 M2 so......
@comment 4 I use a "whole ass keyboard" mouse as you put it for everything because I am used to it after playing this game for 17+ years I workout pretty often so the weight does not bother me lol. I use it for everything whether its different games (rainbow 6 siege/escape from tarkov/vermintide 2 all the way to old games from the 90s that do not require a mouse even like Tomb Raider I-V and Thief: The dark project/gold Thief 2 Thief fms etc etc) to doing work related things so I don't have to move my hand from my mouse to my keyboard when doing numerical calculation and I use it for internet navigation as well just in general makes my life easier
I'm not really sure what the point of these comments were since its clear you didn't watch the video but I appreciate the algorithm engagement all the same lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Have a nice day
@@aegloras-1331 Did I say something you took offense to? I wasn’t being aggressive to you at all. It also wasn’t a targeted comment to you but more towards other people (not) watching your 2.5hr video, reading the comments.
Just getting into warden and will be deep diving in this great video. I have a basic question. With gambit chains being a thing, why do I see everyone start with the highest spender and going down? For ex going desolation -> surety of death -> brink of victory - > war cry. Shouldn't it be the other way around if war cry buffs brink of victory etc?
Ascending order gambit chains are gone with the rework, now gambit "chains" are just consecutively using gambits in combat to tier up advanced technique. The order no longer matters or the sequence, as for why some people start high to low, its both a combination of preference and usually the highest cost skills tend to take up the most space in the rotation so its good to get them out of the way early.
so for example desolation has the longest icon sequence(taking up 2 or 3 masteries unless used with rapid techniques) and has a long animation(you see me cut it with shield slam multiple times in the video) then surety and brink have the same animation and less cost, and war cry after the rework had its animation cut in half so its good to end with moving into the next sequence because the short animation will blend better. resounding challenge is another one I weave in that sequence since it is similar in scope and function and it also has a long animation so I may decide to cut that instead of desolation but long story short as far as dps is concerned I just want them out of the way as fast as possible to move forward with the rotation.
The old gambit chain buffs are completely gone now(and most of them were worthless and not worth doing) so the method of high to low is quite old and has been done for a long time for the reasons listed above. If you see any tooltips referencing those chain buffs, they are outdated and no longer correct so you can ignore them.
This was extremely helpful, thank you very much from a returning warden player.
Amazing video, have you ever tanked at lvl 50? Playing legendary server and wondering about optimal traits/gear there
I was expecting someone to ask this at some point, I have played most roles at most of the older expansion caps at one point or another but that was back in the day many years ago and the game was very different then(Warden didn't exist til moria, I played hunter and guard mainly in SOA). However I did briefly play tri role captain(pre captain rework) on treebeard (angmar 50) the situation at that time was that very little was done to up the difficulty on those instances(due to multiple stat reworks HD trait trees class reworks etc screwing balance up over the last decade) even the new t2 and t3 versions of some of the content were far too easy, people were 1-3 manning some of them(thaurlach) just due to the sheer amount of healing and dps output that exists now that is tuned for the live servers which allowed phase skipping and bypass of mechanics among other things.
As far as "optimal" gear on legendary servers someone else will have to help you with that I haven't played on one for a few years since treebeard but I expect its mostly the same.
Since essence gear is very rare or non existant at those levels its hard to choose what stats you want, you have the do the old method of finding each piece the developers made with the stats you want and min maxing how you want it, for tanking at that level that essentially means pieces with the highest mitigation(tactical will be what you want to prioritize) and anything with high vit and morale as well as virtues and buffs with the same. I also recall it was possible to get insanely high resists on the legendary servers(50+%) making some content that was hard in 2007 afkable now I don't know if they fixed or changed that, but I digress
That content was not designed for everyone to have capped stats so with the excess stat bloat that is available now its very easy to have far more mitigation and health(and damage and healing) than the devs ever forsaw being possible back in 2007
For Traits(assuming we are talking about warden here) you are going to have far less points than what is achievable on live so you will not be able to achieve anywhere near what I showed in this video. You will want to focus on getting your capstone skill for whatever line you are playing in skimping any points out of anything not immediately useful(only 5 points are needed to advance trait tiers the line doesn't need to be maxed) and any leftover points you want to get as deep into yellow as possible. you will want the marked/diminished debuff and strong foundations as the class is designed to be played with mastery resets for over a decade now anything else you can get is a bonus
Warden is an anomaly in SOA in 2007 the developers didn't have self sufficient hybrid tank/dps in their vision so you will find that there are pieces of content that are utterly roflmaoable on warden and after the warden rework being able to get more mitigation than some heavy armors it may very well be the most broken class at that level cap so as far as tanking is concerned you should have no issues assuming you meet the bare minimum of having enough mits and morale to not get one shot by forced damage which is not a high bar at that level.
hope that helps and good luck
@@aegloras-1331 It certainly does help, thank you for yout detailed answer
Warden is mid st lv 50. Classes are too strong and with Warden being DoTs, bosses die too quickly for a DPS role. Tanking is just fine because "tank" classes are all close together for any one to stand out. Guardian is still the S-Tier but Captain, Warden, Bear, are all A/S-Tier as well at lv 50.
A bit late but hope you will see. First what virtues you use as red. I use Compassion, Loyalty, Fidelity, Valour, Wit but not sure. Second I am man red and now on lotro wiki says master spear training increases +2% dmg and not +7%. Man sword extra +5% sounds like big difference. Should I than use sword LI?
Regarding the wiki that specific page you mentioned is outdated lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Master_Spear_Training This page was last edited on 22 September 2016, at 13:58. at the bottom of the page. Quite a few wiki pages are outdated or flat out incorrect from the start while its good to use as a resource to identify things in game much of the info needs double verified. Most of the Warden class page has been incorrect since it was even added so I tend to steer people away from it. The specific spear change that made it 7% was added in the last year so it won't be on there. Spear and sword(with trait) are on par bonus wise the only reason I went to spear for dps over sword after 16+ years of using sword is the animation changes for spear. Spear is now exponentially faster in everything so depending on how fast you are spear may be better for you but stat wise they are more or less identical so choose what you like. The difference is not so huge that you can do one thing you can't with the other just it will bug me to no end if I find a faster way to do something and I'm not using it(if its worth the effort).
Virtues are very flexible usually you just want to use what compliments your build, in other words gives you the most space in your build. For that reason most people over the years have tended to use the traits that give the most mitigation and vit/morale because it usually works out to be with buffs/food/etc the more efficient for meeting the bare minimum of mitigation and morale for forced damage in group content, and then they finish their damage/crit/etc with gear/essences/lis.
To elaborate on that, like I said in the video most people will want to overcap mits as low as the content requires to leave as much room for dps stats as possible and the way the virtues are balanced(right now) they tend to be more defense\offense slated so that is how most people set them up to leave more room in the main part of the build gear/essences/lis to be focused on dps. Wit was added in later for another source of finesse so if your build stands to benefit from that it can be slotted. Ultimately you can set them up however you want, as far as min maxing is concerned the difference between "this way or that way" is minuscule when you come out on the end as long as you get to the finish line so to speak it doesn't really matter how you got there, lotro is very good about that sort of thing vs other games that generally have everyone obsessing over some sort of "meta". If you decide you want to pull your hair out in front of a calculator to discover whats 0.1% more effective for your setup that is your prerogative. I spent many sleepless nights doing just that to try and make my builds better over the years but its certainly not fun
I was using Tolerance Fidelity Loyalty Honor Compassion in both red and blue to make me inherently tankier on the backend leaving gear and lis more open to set up as I wished, and then dropping in a few extra tact mit essences(primarily red) into extra essence slots as needed when the content I was running had heavy tactical forced damage and I wanted to ensure I was over the minimum hardcap threshold I needed to be.
I chose them for primarily tact mit(more important in 99% of endgame and phys is easier to cap) and morale pushing(pre stat changes I managed to get 4,750,000 morale buffed in blue post stat changes I was sitting 430,000-475,000 morale fully buffed(depending on group setup)(raid setting) for reference
@@aegloras-1331 Thanks a lot on such a beautiful replay as I did not even think you would replay at all. Warden saved me as I almost quit lotro because I could not find a single class that I would call main (falling asleep playing red champ) and after trying Warden I am in love with both class and game again. He was last one I tested.
Spear / sword thing makes me happy as I prefer spear because of animations as with it character keeps shield static in front of him that looks more Warden like while with all other one handers he flails around with it with each attack and on top of bleed and faster animations I am sticking with spear. Just wished there are more options for spear outfits compared to swords.
I remember you saying how squishy warden is in video despite looking tanky with shield and it could not be more correct so I think I will remove those 2 offensive virtues as dmg is not problem and put all 5 defensive as you did so that I will have them already rdy when I hit max lvl and fill stats I miss with gear.
Cheers mate!
hi there! i'm a returning player who keeps bouncing off because i made the slight mistake of picking warden as my first/main character. I'm glad i found this guide but I think I need a new player or non-endgame guide first. do you have any recommendations? or even, is that a video you would make? thank you!
Yes this is an issue I've heard many times from people that picked warden first, even experienced raiders from other mmos have come to lotro and played warden as their first character and quit the game soon after. It is definitely not the class I'd recommend learning the game on unless it's all you are interested in.
As far as new player guides I hadn't considered making one myself because I felt that category was oversaturated and in the grand scheme of things accurate information is more important in endgame than it is early game so thats why I was more worried about it.
Ive stopped in recent years recommending anything I'm not personally in control of to anyone because every time I do that immediately after the author of said service or material does something enormously stupid that I don't want to be associated with. As im sure you've noticed there are thousands of random guides for this game on youtube but as to any I consider good enough to send someone to, I couldn't tell you because I don't have time to watch through them all and make sure I'm giving you good information. Majority of why I made this video is my disgust with people in game, on youtube, and in various other sites posting either misleading information or just outright lying about the game, it has become a major issue in recent years but thats not a lotro thing thats a planet earth thing.
With all that said, there are many beginner level warden videos on youtube that show basic gambit usage and gameplay well enough, but My recommendation for learning warden from scratch is just playing through the game and exploring the classes capabilities naturally. The hardest thing people starting out on warden need to learn is the muscle memory because of the nature of the gambit system if you want to keep up with other classes whose skill plays are one and done you have to be confident knowing where everything in your setup is and that is something you can only achieve through practice and first hand experience.
To give some examples, when I started playing warden there was a period of about 3 days where I sat in the same spot in the northern bree fields practicing gambits over and over til I could perform them without looking at the screen only then did I continue with leveling, every time I unlocked a new gambit I did the same with it until it was effortless. I would manufacture scenarios in which a certain gambit was useful so like when a pull or mechanic called for it and I would make sure I was fully exploiting every tool I had applicable to the situation. Later in the game when things got harder, I made it a point to approach things as hard as possible, like full pulling camps, soloing instances, giving myself time limits etc that is how you learn where the lines are and what is possible, and that goes for all classes not just warden. your methods may vary you have to do what works for you.
Warden is the largest investment in the game and it is completely unique from all the other classes not just in lotro but all mmos. It's up to you what class you decide to go with just I recommend whatever you do pick you stick with it until you get deeper into the game because I have seen people that start this game and try to juggle multiple classes at the same time and they either A get overwhealmed and don't learn the game because they keep class hopping without experience ultimately quiting around level 30 when the game starts getting harder or B they progress insanely slow and take years upon years to level and never get anywhere.
I don't know how far along you are in the game from your comment, but this guide was angled toward people that were still new or returning but had mastered the basics and wanted direction for working toward endgame content, so you may want to return to it once you get more comfortable this is ABSOLUTELY NOT something people starting out/starting over should be working toward yet, I don't want you to feel like you have unrealistic expectations upon you.
As far as me making any more guides, Both a comprehensive mmo class/ mechanics guide and a raiding/group content mechanics and composition setup guide were things I had on the pipe dream list but I just did not have the time or the conditions to create a video I deemed of acceptable enough quality yet, I've been away from the game and life in general since this was posted, only answering questions while I still have internet access. Whether those or any other guides will ever get made, I need to see how the next few months go but atm things are looking bleak so don't expect them
I hope that helped and good luck to you with the game
watching this video I’ve changed my mind playing warden, thanks!
Thank you so much for this. It is greatly appreciated
Hey! This is very helpful, thank you! With all that effort, how good is Warden Survivability? Can Warden compete with a Beorning Tank?
Its complicated to explain so get ready for a text wall.
Historically Warden is one of the two "main tank" classes and the rest of the tank capable classes are regarded as "off tanks".
Now, balance issues over the years primarily have blurred the lines here and captain(balance and niche cds) drifted into the "main tank" position for many comps for many years(pretty much late 2017ish until the rework last year that pushed it back into offtank territory). During those years warden had major balance issues to put it lightly and it was not viable as a tank at all for that period, during this time beorning sort of took its spot as a more heal tank adaptable support tank just for lack of better alternative and with the addition of brawler later it mostly became the desired off tank for the sole reason of the gut punch debuff.
Primarily(as of right now and recent years) guard will nearly always be main tank because after its rework its just too good not to use in that role, and any other tanks taken will nearly always be chosen based upon the buffs/debuffs/utility they bring to the group not necessarily the survivability(all tanks atm have good enough survivability to be VIABLE but not always OPTIMAL)
With that as a preface: At the time I'm typing this Warden is the optimal off tank both in survivability(99% of situations) and damage increasing buffs/debuffs. between marked diminished being permanent fire at will being resettable and on demand battering strikes being permanent and with the current raid set desperate spear being 10% for 40 seconds aoe warden is the optimal in the off tank position. That does not mean it cannot main tank, just as I said there is no reason not to have gaurd be the main tank at the moment its just too good.(except niche situations like last stand cheesing in which case captain is best)
"how good is warden survivability?": It depends on the player. If the class is played properly at the skill cap(the point where the player is flawless)Warden has the best self sustain capability and long term longevity potential(being able to provide for yourself) Warden will take more damage hit for hit than most other tanks but is the hands down #1 in recovering from that hit and at the moment the way cooldowns work it is possible to have 1 cooldown always running if properly cycled where as all other tanks have a period of downtime. Gaurd and Captain will take less damage per hit, but are nowhere near as good at recovering. To give you an example Halls of black lore t4/t5 the final boss's execute phase gives insane dread and takes you down to like 10% max morale Gaurd and captain will survive as long as they have cds and healer support but the moment its gone they are dead, but warden has such high hps that even with no healer its possible to survive with 10% max morale and everytime you get hit you just bounce back to full health.
This is where the issue of Warden comes in. Effort. You have to manage dozens of things and function mentally and physically nearly perfect to perform at this level at all times where as other tanks have to manage usually less than 5 things. You can teach a new guardian tank to play competently in higher tier in an afternoon, It takes months(at least) to get a new warden privy to high tier tanking so if someone were to ask "why is it worth it to bother then if another tank is so much easier?" the answer is because if you have a player that can pull it off, It is the optimal group setup(for dps output) and you have all the self sustain and niche capability warden has to offer.
The reason why most hardcore groups don't have or take a warden is not because its not a good enough class or its not useful, its because between lag and the non-existant margin for error almost no one wants to play the class. It is no contest the hardest class and its not for everyone and its without a doubt the heaviest investment in the game. The tradeoff is it can do things no other class can.
"Can Warden compete with a Beorning Tank?": For the sake of the question lets assume the same person is playing both classes, Warden beats Beorning in personal survivability by a large margin Warden outheals beorning in self healing(both the blue self healing and yellow beorning group healing) by a ratio of more than 10:1. I compared my self heal parses(combat analysis) in group content against various Beorning healing parses from april 2023 until december 2023 and was absolutely astonished with how little they were putting out compared to rk/minstrel. The main reason beorning healers are taken is for the cross healing potential in raids and their utility but as far as supporting a tank is concerned If you ask me they are the worst healer.
For cooldowns beorning tank has multiple situationally strong cds(anything bpe is usually worthless against main bosses)but they have short up times and long cds meaning for extended survival beorning burns out its options fast and will need to swap off quicker to another tank(or die) Wardens cds are designed to always be useful in someway and they if cycled have high uptime allowing for extended periods of protection meaning warden can withstand pressure longer than beorning
Mitigations if you built similar to how I mentioned in the stats and gear section the mitigations between the two will be similar.
Most of what warden does is self centered based upon ones own survival whereas most of what beorning does is mixed bag group utility. Warden was designed in the beginning to be a hardcore mobile melee tank/dps hybrid and as one of the 2 "main tanks". Beorning was designed to be an amalgamation of roles meant to please a variety of players and was never intended to be a main anything(dpser,tank/healer) Brawler and mariner are in the same boat being utility and support oriented instead of main role.
Ironically the most common role beorning is seeing recently is dps because since its last rework its sustained dps is quite good.
My tank tierlist atm looks like
Gaurd->Too good not to use as main, not that it is better at everything, it has poor self sustain
Warden-Captain-> Warden and captain tied for slot depending on scenario warden better for dps increase captain better for group protecting
Brawler-Beorning-> Brawler-Beorning tied if warden/captain not taken brawler is simple and mainly for gut punch beorning has lots of group utility and buffs/debuffs
Champion-> needs a rework desperately has not been properly updated in over a decade but is still semi viable very few players playing atm
I know That was extremely long but i didnt see a way to accurately answer your questions in few words. The developers seem to have been flip flopping in the last few years whether they want specific classes to be main roles(traditional mmo) or have every class be able to do every role. This game has always expected certain classes be played certain ways and the dual or tri viability is very new to lotro and lack of development time on hasty changes has hurt the games balance. They seem to want to phase out supports and make them dps with extra debuffs which is disturbing because its the antithesis of how a traditional mmo works but at this point I'm just happy the game is still running. Hope that helps
*The statements I made in this post were accurate at the time I made them I'm not responsible for changes to the game after the fact
**all hypothetical scenarios posed were assuming high tier content with large hit for hit from boss(es) and constant healer/support required
***all class hypotheticals were assuming players were at equal skill levels and we are purely talking about class capability not player skill
****Every statement I made is either personal experience and/or cross examined with people I consider to be colleagues to avoid flukes in data.
*****I'm not a lawyer I promise lmao
@@aegloras-1331 thank you very much for your very detailed answer! I appreciate it a lot! You made it clear that warden is the right choice for me! I want a tank that has amazing self sustain and lives and dies by its own skill. I will embark on my journey to become the best warden i can be! Thank you again for this guide and the time you have taken to help me!
Great video! i learned a lot. I just need to figure out why is my unerring strike only 40s instead of 44s
wardens triumph?
is there anywhere you explain advanced technique in this video? Also would you ever use Adroid Manouvre or is it a dps loss?
No, I left some things out because I saw them as beginner oriented when this video was meant to be oriented toward people that had been playing for at least a while on warden and wanted to know more specifically which direction they should be going for endgame. Looking back I probably should have because the developers barely documented it as a new mechanic and its pretty crucial to tanking now.
As far as AT goes as you cast gambits 2 icon or more you gain stacks represented as a chain icon in your buffs, when the chain completes you get a stack or tier. These tiers cap out at 3 and each tier adds potency to way of spear/shield/fist-desperate combat charges capped at 4 total at best-and the damage reduction for for the free peoples. Way of spear/shield/fist is the only cashout in red. As I said in the video you ideally want to wait til you are at tier 3 to spend these skills for maximum potency but there are exceptions for emergencies.
As far as Adroit Maneuver is concerned, I intended to mention it in the video but it got overlooked in the mess of rushing together everything and editing. It is useful in several situations, for tanking it can save you if there are extremely heavy attack speed debuffs, once there are enough of them you pretty much can't attack anymore and it can get you killed and adroit can bring back functionality, there is a case of that in den of pughlak if you get the flooded tavern room, For dps you can use it if you want it doesn't take so much time to make a huge difference in dps its just not overly needed as between the animation changes with the rework and group buffs that increase speed you will be very fast already but its up to you. Me personally I typically only use it when there is some attack speed debuff and I want to negate it but that is rare as in recent years the developers haven't used this mechanic much.
And about the audio in your other comment, As I said in the description I apologize, I rushed this together in about 8 days and OBS was not cooperating so in order to not have either baby rap squeeky sounds or immense backround noise that sounds like the amazon rain forest this is how the audio had to be without more time to tinker with it, it bothers me more than you trust me. Even the audio that came out "good" is heavily distorted and not indicative of my natural speaking voice which probably made me harder to understand for some people. I Had an emergency come up that required I drop everything so in the 8 days I had to do this the outcome was less than what I would have wanted but whats done is done. Thanks for watching
@@aegloras-1331 thanks for a detailed answer. It's very hard to get any decent guides for this game. Would you know if there is any discord or theorycrafting and meta-oriented group out there? I might stick around and I'd rather optimise myself and learn as fast as I can.
@@AlecFortescue There have been many over the years but as to any currently active or reputable I cannot personally attest at the moment. The old lotro forums had a lot of invaluable information but I checked before I made this comment and I'm not sure if the .old link is still working or if that part of the site is still in operation. Your best bet for finding authentic information would be trying to get into a reputable raiding kin(I can't speak to what x kin's requirements may be other than the ones I've been in/worked with-most of which are now in maintenance mode)most kins doing group content are willing to help new players if they are genuinely interested.
The lack of authentic and true information these days is part of why I made this video, The game has changed drastically since the old information was put out and most of what is new is completely wrong or at best misleading. Even going way back toward 2007 this game has always had a very secretive community and typically anything of import in the way of knowledge was achieved either by personal experience or through personal teaching between players particularly pvp and endgame group content. Most of the top level wardens in the game have been self taught(myself included) and over time as the game changed and more information was made available standards emerged that were generally agreed upon and that's what most of the information in this video is.
Majority of the older players have either moved on or rarely play anymore and there is a gap that exists now between old players (2007-) and players that have just recently started (2020-) and most of that knowledge has been lost or only exists now in small private circles so I fully understand a new players frustration with lack of information. It seemed almost as though there would no longer be any wardens in endgame once the last few of us were gone so I felt an obligation to attempt to course correct with this video and steer people in the right direction so that new players would not be ostracized by the ignorant that i spoke of at the start of the video.
I know that was probably vague and cryptic but its the best I can do in this public format. Lotro is a unique game with a unique community and despite the changes over the years that have upset older players there is still nothing like it out there and probably never will be again(otherwise I wouldn't have put 17 years of my life into it lol) so I encourage anyone that has the opportunity to play through the game as much as they can and enjoy it. I met some of the best people I've ever met in my life through this game and learned things I never would have anywhere else, if I had to do it over again I would change nothing.
Edit: I got it to work forums-old.lotro.com/forums/forum.php
Like i said most of it may be outdated but there is decades of information there, You are certain to find something valuable. Probably the largest surviving record of this games history along with the lotro wiki
Thanks for this. Wish the audio was louder.
It sounds perfectly fine to me. 🤔
Yes seriously. Why does nearly every LOTRO TH-camr have such quiet audio!!?!? Do yall not listen to it?
@@jamesp1136 If you read the description and/or some of the comments I replied to you'd have your answer. TH-cam just recently added stable audio to this video without my knowledge or consent so any audio issues that arise now you can blame on them. I had it perfectly balanced to where it needed to be before hand so if you think its too quiet turn it on, if its too loud turn it off.
oh, one thing. Did you use Way of the Fist/Spear in your rotation? Doesnt seem like it.
No, I was more concentrated on explaining what I was doing during the example openings. In real content as far as dps is concerned you can use it in a few ways like way of spear right before cauterizing cashout, way of shield during a forced damage phase trying to sustain yourself, or some people blow way of fist early in their rotation for a slight amount more dot damage or you could save the t3 cashout of way of fist for the pickup rotation after the opening to help offset not having recklessness up just depends on preference and situation. If you don't end up using it at all its not a big deal it appears more powerful on paper than it actually is like I said in the video its just something to spend and use. In blue its just another way to trigger the dr buffs if all your other cd are down.
really great guide!
Yuliwen, on Evernight right? Icekast here, as a returning warden this is helpfull :)
dps warden rotatoin is actually based on your shortest dot besides spear of fate. When watching expert parse videos its around 30-36 seconds. Just a heads up. Not easy but correct mastery planning is required sadly.
I explained in the video the condition in which its advantageous to weave shorter dots first(1:23:13) (1:24:24). I also showed an example of one such rotation. In addition to that, I explained why I prefer wave building and why its typically more pertinent in a real setting and not static training dummy parses which are typically meaningless in reality, which was the point of the video. Warden dps is typically taken in an auxiliary role not as a main dpser because of the wave like nature of its peak burst line up-what you should be shooting for since if you try to sustain with a long duration rotation that does not symmetrically match up in dot duration, you will end up short stroking yourself and doing less damage overall. This is why minstrel/hunter/fire rk/red guard etc are taken as main dpsers at the moment and not wardens due to short skill cds and more naturally flowing rotations to maintain a perfect sustain hence why I said dps warden is taken in auxiliary role, similar to red captain or red burglar. I've never heard of or seen an "expert" that will short stroke their maximum potential especially during limited time oathbreaker windows that come in phases with boss health just so they can repeat more smoothly while missing numerous skills they could be playing in said rotation for a larger overall parse. The point of the video was to provide reality oriented information taking into account specific instance/stress/lag/circumstance/common scenarios/etc instead of a several hour recording, controlled environment parse that, from your description would result in dps loss that even if it didn't generously assuming would still not be practical in real practice in group content. Thanks for watching, if you did.
Why would you take so much more damage tanking with spear? Idk how that increases mob attack speed
yeah, on champ i just push the same button many times for skill i want to execute, so i can handle slow and wrong skills order which lag produce. but when i watch some parses i cant understand how ppl get those numbers. i should try mordor server on beta to see how it plays with proper ping, not 130-140ms i have for years
How do you consume the advanced tyecnique? Thanks.
Unless they decide to add more, 3 ways: way of spear/shield/fist-desperate combat-for the free peoples. The only way to consume in red is way of spear/shield/fist. Like I said in the video ideally you want to consume at tier 3 for max potency on those skills but there are exceptions per situation i.e getting desperate spear faster if you don't have time to wait and you need/want the extra group output, shield for emergency burst heal or force taunt, fist for stunning something important etc
high elf is still the best choice if you go for damage imo. +5% light type damage is good
I'm more impressed how quickly he can build gambits. I'm curious to what it looks like with lag
last 26 minutes of the video is about just that
Can u contact me for a training? I would pay u. Thanks
I've been away from the game since this was uploaded dealing with something of a shitfest irl, just checking for questions for as long as I'll continue to have internet. If the next few months calm down I'll probably be back so If you happen to be on Evernight I may be able to help but the timetable is not concrete yet
I exclusively play wardens, since MoM and they were launched. Love the class.
I always use a sword and a spear. Javelins are junk
thx devs, changing legendary weapons is way easier now. so i can swap to spear with few coins and ancient scripts
nice dude thanks
oh man, 30ms. you are definitely live in us. im in europe and i have 135ms
Thunderbuddy don't care
Leave your microphone alone! Super annoying
Held together with tape with wires spliced. You are welcome to send a prepaid card number to this email for a recording studio.