I mean, *technically* it is an enemy counter measure. Since you use it to counter your enemy. ... just like an LB-10X is an enemy counter measure. albeit a messy one
Honestly, one of my favorite things about C3 is that it makes MRMs a lot more usable. I'm glad that you mentioned the MRM Catapult, that thing is hilarious in a C3 lance. Another option for an MRM boat in a C3 lance is the MRM variant of the Demolisher. It will have a harder time getting into position and drawing line of sight than the Catapult, but 90 MRMs on a heavily armored assault tank with a base BV of 1242 is quite fun. The Orion 1MC is also great in this role if you want something a bit faster. Also, if you're using C3i, there's a config for the IS version of the Battle Cobra that has 4 MRM 10s, which hits way harder than a mech under 1000 BV has any right to.
I feel like Kurita needs to build an MRM Hetzer. And an MRM Hunchback. There's no reason not to pour the missiles out of the units; they're doing good work that way.
@@marcusshiffler2614 The Hunchback especially. One big weapon, short range focus? That just screams MRM40. It's lighter compared to the AC20, even with the Apollo FCS, so a 1 for 1 swap leaves you some weight to play with.
The Schiltron D is almost certainly one of the best C3 master units, having ECM, 2 RAC/5s with a TC, and an Art IV LRM-15 for about 1600 BV. I normally play Word of Blake when I'm running C3, so I skip straight to C3i, but when I do, the WoB LRM carrier is insane, as is their variant of the Fafnir, the 5WB if memory serves. They have a lot of awsome options for forward pieces too, like the Preta Dominus, the WoB SRM carrier, the C3i Sprint, and the Nightshade VTOL which carries both a C3i computer and ECM. But by far, the best C3i unit in the game are the Tau Wraiths, and probably the unit you need the most books to play, too. They are cybernetically enhanced paratrooping conventional infantry, who deploy in single squads of 6, with advanced stealth equipment, and C3i implants in their heads. Utterly insane for about 50 BV, end up with a +5/+6 to be hit when standing still, can drop onto any hex from an aerospace transport, and still do enough damage to other infantry to beat full platoons armed with lasers.
@@humanhaggis wow haha Ill have to check out those Tau guys. Double RAC5s with a TC sounds pretty amazing as well! Big crit seeking power at range... amazing.
@@WolfHreda I like the Challenger, but without ECM, it needs help to avoid interdiction, and while Gauss Rifles are better than RAC/5s against mechs, they kind of suck against vehicles and infantry, and the extra LRM-15 means you are looking at around 15% more damage for 15% less BV even while you stay at RoF 5 with the RACs. I do play with 1 point of Edge, so the jams might be a bigger concern at other tables. I like the extra armor, but I just don't think it's worth it on a sniper with everything you give up. 250 BV for the vehicle alone is not a small price, but you're multiplying that with every unit you add to the network, and I find that hard to justify.
@@ObiwanNekody vehicles are unfortunately just better than mechs in general, and only the very specialized ones that do something no vehicle can replicate can sneak by, like heavy/assault jumpers, or insane MASC/Supercharger meme units. No matter how great your 3/5/0 juggernaut is, there will always be the Mars Assault Vehicle, or even just a Demolisher Mk I. No matter how efficient your scout or flanker mech, there will always be the Onuris, Balac, or Karnov.
As an addendum, you actually can link multiple C3 lances together. If you have a unit with two C3 master computers (such as one of the naginata variants), you use one of the masters to link up with its lancemates like normal, but you can also use the other C3 master to connect to two other units with a C3 master and form a company scale C3 network where all 12 units are sharing information. It's not really something that's likely to come up outside of very niche circumstances, and even then it's probably not a good idea, but it is technically an option.
I came here to comment this lol. 50.02 will allow you to define a whole company as a single combat team, so you could generate only missions with 12 C3 units if you wanted!
@@gilbat1 wow that is kinda wild. I doubt anyone is gonna do that but... good to know! It's kinda weird that Comstar invented C3i to link 6 units when you could already do up to 8 or 12... but then again, C3i is also better at not getting interrupted by ECM.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I did it in that DCMS/Smoke Jag dust-up we had. Didn't get to use that function except for once, but it's definitely interesting. Unfortunately, one of my best lists got left behind because I picked my final lists at like 2 AM. It had a HM-2 Hitman. I'm still sad.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I assume the difference in network sizes is for lore reasons. IS formations are supposed to be 4 units to a lance, 3 lances to a company (12 total). Comstar/Wobble formations are 6 units to a Level II, 6 level II's to a Level III (36 total). So C3i works in networks of 6 because comstar designed it with their organizational structures in mind.
Good video. I'd recommend a few units for you though, check out though the blessed order mad cat it's a C3i one, but it's very good. 2 er ppcs 2 streak srm 6s. But it's got enough mobility you can keep the range. The biggest weakness i think of c3 is if the opponent rushes you, it doesn't give you any benefit, so something with speed like the mad cat can maintain range. I'd also recommend trying close-range C3 units it's know it sounds odd, but close range weapons are very efficient and now you can negate there biggest weeknes try a crusader 6t. 12 standard medium lasers and a 5/8/5 profile. You'll need a durable spotter to stay within those 3 hexes without dying i like the Wolverine 9w2, 6/8/7 good armor. And bringing all those mediums to close range is excellent, its like a Nova that doesn't have an insane amount of heat.
I'm rather disappointed that there aren't more IS omnis with C3, especially the ones being produced in Draconis space. Kind of annoying for my Gunyosha force, which I have with all omnis. Of the omnis best associated with the DCMS, the Avatar and Sunder are the only ones with C3, and the Sunder is stuck with a company commander setup (two C3Ms). Kinda wish the Sunder B had dropped one C3M and downgraded the LRM-10 to a 5 so that it could carry an ERPPC. The Strider M is funny, though I wish there was a much earlier version with just a regular C3M. Still, Ive found the Omnistarter (Firestarter Omni) to be a great C3S unit, particularly the B and D. The B is a hair over 1000 BV and has 6 jump and pulse lasers; very good and wants to get into short range to shoot, plus it has the armor to resist return fire. The D has ECM, very good for the Clan Invasion era (though the 1300 BV hurts thanks to that ERPPC). One important aspect of the Boosted C3s is that while it's more resistant to ECM, it also costs 7% per unit in the network rather than 5%, so if you thought 5% was already too expensive then the Boosted system is horrible. One really powerful aspect of the C3i is that to cut a unit off from the network, it must be completely within a hostile ECM bubble. The regular C3 system can have an element cut off if the line between the Slave and Master has hostile ECM, a weakness the C3i (and Nova CEWS) does not have. Also, the Ghost Bears used C3i from at least the 3080's through the 3090's. While fluff text indicates that the Hussars and Drakkons in the Omega Galaxy made use of C3i on their omnis, we only have two PR mechs (Ursus PR and Beowulf IIC PR) that have stat blocks with C3i on them. Honestly, I kinda hope/wish we'd see a Clan C3 based on that, but make it a bit unique by doing something like having an ECM built in. Maybe have the ECM bubble be smaller (kinda like the Nova CEWS), which would make getting "too close" dangerous since getting within 1-2 hexes of a hostile ECM unit would cut off the Clan mech from the network. Anyway, sorry for the long post. I've been using C3 a lot with my local group lately, and we usually play 4500 or 6500 BV with FCCW era limits. Which means a lot of units don't have ECM yet.
The Phawk 8CS will generate 6 heat running, 4 heat walking, and 2 heat standing still. Which is actually not a problem either - it's still well-sinked for anything but jumping. I would move the ECM if I were them, tho - arms are pretty detachable and having it pad those torso crits is a good idea.
@@marcusshiffler2614 hmm maybe. Ya I think it's a solid unit even with XXL. It gets hot when jumping but it's less reliant on jumps with that good ground speed.
@@RyeFields ECM is a real problem... it's hard to deal.with if ur not very cognizant of the ECM threat range(IE, where can the enemy ECM bubble end up?)
Princess seems to know about C3 well enough that when I was testing a lance with a C3M Templar config, the enemy ECM carrier beelined to it. This broke my whole network the whole time it was humping my Templar's leg.
@TheManyVoicesVA Where did you read about the rule drawing the line of sight through the ECM is not sufficient to disrupt the more powerful computer? That seems wrong.
C3 and C3i BattleValue Calculation: 1. Find your BV before Gunnery/Pilot. 2. Multiply that BV value in Step 1 by 0.05 (5%) 3. Multiply the value from Step 2 by the number of units in the C3/C3i network. 4. Add this number to BV from step 1. 4. Now use the number from Step 4 in your Gunnery/Pilot calculation.
There is the Strider STR-OM as a C3M option. If you are playing a company sized engagement, two of these can allow you a network of 11 units and your masters can just go sit at the bottom of the lake or hide in a nice safe corner for the engagement. 607 BV means that you aren't paying much for you masters which you don't want exposed to combat either. It's generally considered to be of poor sportsmansmanship to do this tho, so I wouldn't make a habit of it.
Official rules says if your C3 is at the bottom of a lake, it only affects units that are underwater with it. But a Skulker C3M doing its' best to be unnoticed is functioning exactly as intended.
The most difficult thing with C3 is finding players who don't mind playing against it. It can be kinda stompy, especially if the other player isn't well aware of how to play against it. There is, however, nothing quite as satisfying as slamming gauss slugs into targets 20 hexes away on 4's. It's possibly even more satisfying than the crackling sound an overcharged PPC makes.
The Barghest deserves a mention as it mounts an IHGR and a C3 slave, meaning it can deliver that yummy 22 points from quite the distance. Definitely not an ideal unit option. The Blitzkrieg BTZ-4F also deserves a mention as a nice unit that can jump 7 and trade between a range 4-6 spotter and a range 18 sniper. It's kinda expensive to fit into a c3 network tho.
Yes! The video you should've made before I disgraced myself against the Smoke Jaguars. 😂 So, does the C3 only gather targeting data off the weapons you've fired? Which is why you recommended the Enforcer get within 3 hexes with its VSP?
@@WolfHreda no it gathers it from the mech's position. You dont have to fire any weapons, actually. The sprint would be kinda useless if u needed to fire weapons lol.
@TheManyVoicesVA okay, just to be sure, if that Enforcer is within 5 hexes of the target, and the Naginata is 21 hexes away from the target, its LRMs target as if they're being fired at short range, and there's no minimum range penalty because they're not within minimum range.
@WolfHreda that is correct! Cover still applies(from the firer, not the spotter, as I said) but min ranges only count from the firer. IE if the target is 5 hexes from the spotter, no problem. If it's 5 hexes from the shooter, now you get penalties.
Yes. They aren't horrible options if you want to go cheap, but they are kinda lightly armored. I have sometimes used the Company Command one, the low cost and reasonably long ranged LB10x ACs are definitely workable. In general tanks make excellent c3m units, the Challenger XI is one of my favorites. There is a Schreck that is pretty nice too, and the Schiltron has multiple excellent c3m options.
As I understand the Alpha Strike rules, C3 is already included in the PV cost of units and it costs nothing to set up the network. I kinda don't like this as it slightly punishes units that have but don't use C3 and makes C3 forces seem extremely cheap to deploy.
Electronic Counter Measures. Not Enemy Countrr Measures.
@@stuggaroy lol oops. Im a big dummy head :P
I mean, *technically* it is an enemy counter measure.
Since you use it to counter your enemy.
... just like an LB-10X is an enemy counter measure.
albeit a messy one
Honestly, one of my favorite things about C3 is that it makes MRMs a lot more usable. I'm glad that you mentioned the MRM Catapult, that thing is hilarious in a C3 lance. Another option for an MRM boat in a C3 lance is the MRM variant of the Demolisher. It will have a harder time getting into position and drawing line of sight than the Catapult, but 90 MRMs on a heavily armored assault tank with a base BV of 1242 is quite fun. The Orion 1MC is also great in this role if you want something a bit faster. Also, if you're using C3i, there's a config for the IS version of the Battle Cobra that has 4 MRM 10s, which hits way harder than a mech under 1000 BV has any right to.
I feel like Kurita needs to build an MRM Hetzer. And an MRM Hunchback. There's no reason not to pour the missiles out of the units; they're doing good work that way.
@@marcusshiffler2614 The Hunchback especially. One big weapon, short range focus? That just screams MRM40. It's lighter compared to the AC20, even with the Apollo FCS, so a 1 for 1 swap leaves you some weight to play with.
@@StarlightSocialist my good sir, it shall be a swayback with 6 MRM 10s. (Ur gonna need to drop to 10 DHS though)
I truly appreciate that your three c3 spotter mechs all have a snubby, just as RNGesus intended.
@@ObiwanNekody hehehehe best spotter weapon
The Schiltron D is almost certainly one of the best C3 master units, having ECM, 2 RAC/5s with a TC, and an Art IV LRM-15 for about 1600 BV.
I normally play Word of Blake when I'm running C3, so I skip straight to C3i, but when I do, the WoB LRM carrier is insane, as is their variant of the Fafnir, the 5WB if memory serves. They have a lot of awsome options for forward pieces too, like the Preta Dominus, the WoB SRM carrier, the C3i Sprint, and the Nightshade VTOL which carries both a C3i computer and ECM.
But by far, the best C3i unit in the game are the Tau Wraiths, and probably the unit you need the most books to play, too. They are cybernetically enhanced paratrooping conventional infantry, who deploy in single squads of 6, with advanced stealth equipment, and C3i implants in their heads. Utterly insane for about 50 BV, end up with a +5/+6 to be hit when standing still, can drop onto any hex from an aerospace transport, and still do enough damage to other infantry to beat full platoons armed with lasers.
@@humanhaggis wow haha Ill have to check out those Tau guys. Double RAC5s with a TC sounds pretty amazing as well! Big crit seeking power at range... amazing.
@@humanhaggis _cough_ Challenger MBT XI _cough_
Twin Gauss Rifles, a C3M, and a Targeting Computer
@@WolfHreda these two tanks are pretty much the best c3m options. In general c3m tanks are better than mechs.
@@WolfHreda I like the Challenger, but without ECM, it needs help to avoid interdiction, and while Gauss Rifles are better than RAC/5s against mechs, they kind of suck against vehicles and infantry, and the extra LRM-15 means you are looking at around 15% more damage for 15% less BV even while you stay at RoF 5 with the RACs. I do play with 1 point of Edge, so the jams might be a bigger concern at other tables.
I like the extra armor, but I just don't think it's worth it on a sniper with everything you give up. 250 BV for the vehicle alone is not a small price, but you're multiplying that with every unit you add to the network, and I find that hard to justify.
@@ObiwanNekody vehicles are unfortunately just better than mechs in general, and only the very specialized ones that do something no vehicle can replicate can sneak by, like heavy/assault jumpers, or insane MASC/Supercharger meme units.
No matter how great your 3/5/0 juggernaut is, there will always be the Mars Assault Vehicle, or even just a Demolisher Mk I. No matter how efficient your scout or flanker mech, there will always be the Onuris, Balac, or Karnov.
As an addendum, you actually can link multiple C3 lances together. If you have a unit with two C3 master computers (such as one of the naginata variants), you use one of the masters to link up with its lancemates like normal, but you can also use the other C3 master to connect to two other units with a C3 master and form a company scale C3 network where all 12 units are sharing information.
It's not really something that's likely to come up outside of very niche circumstances, and even then it's probably not a good idea, but it is technically an option.
I came here to comment this lol. 50.02 will allow you to define a whole company as a single combat team, so you could generate only missions with 12 C3 units if you wanted!
@@gilbat1 wow that is kinda wild. I doubt anyone is gonna do that but... good to know! It's kinda weird that Comstar invented C3i to link 6 units when you could already do up to 8 or 12... but then again, C3i is also better at not getting interrupted by ECM.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I did it in that DCMS/Smoke Jag dust-up we had. Didn't get to use that function except for once, but it's definitely interesting. Unfortunately, one of my best lists got left behind because I picked my final lists at like 2 AM. It had a HM-2 Hitman. I'm still sad.
@@TheManyVoicesVAalso the Master is a single point of failure.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I assume the difference in network sizes is for lore reasons. IS formations are supposed to be 4 units to a lance, 3 lances to a company (12 total). Comstar/Wobble formations are 6 units to a Level II, 6 level II's to a Level III (36 total). So C3i works in networks of 6 because comstar designed it with their organizational structures in mind.
Great timing, I was just considering refitting my primary assault lance with C3 :)
@@TheThinKing23 oof. Assault mechs with C3 is *expensive* that is gonna be hard to fit in under 10k BV lol. Maybe even 15k
Good video. I'd recommend a few units for you though, check out though the blessed order mad cat it's a C3i one, but it's very good. 2 er ppcs 2 streak srm 6s. But it's got enough mobility you can keep the range. The biggest weakness i think of c3 is if the opponent rushes you, it doesn't give you any benefit, so something with speed like the mad cat can maintain range. I'd also recommend trying close-range C3 units it's know it sounds odd, but close range weapons are very efficient and now you can negate there biggest weeknes try a crusader 6t. 12 standard medium lasers and a 5/8/5 profile. You'll need a durable spotter to stay within those 3 hexes without dying i like the Wolverine 9w2, 6/8/7 good armor. And bringing all those mediums to close range is excellent, its like a Nova that doesn't have an insane amount of heat.
Woot C3 tutorial time, and with a megamek example. Thanks so much as I wanted to put a C3 force for a quick campaign
@@XanderDraft you're welcome! Thanks for watching :)
I didn't know that c3i update, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Challenger XI is one of my favorite c3 masters. Two Gauss on a turret with a TC and 14 tons of armor make for a very tough anchor to the force.
I'm rather disappointed that there aren't more IS omnis with C3, especially the ones being produced in Draconis space. Kind of annoying for my Gunyosha force, which I have with all omnis. Of the omnis best associated with the DCMS, the Avatar and Sunder are the only ones with C3, and the Sunder is stuck with a company commander setup (two C3Ms). Kinda wish the Sunder B had dropped one C3M and downgraded the LRM-10 to a 5 so that it could carry an ERPPC. The Strider M is funny, though I wish there was a much earlier version with just a regular C3M. Still, Ive found the Omnistarter (Firestarter Omni) to be a great C3S unit, particularly the B and D. The B is a hair over 1000 BV and has 6 jump and pulse lasers; very good and wants to get into short range to shoot, plus it has the armor to resist return fire. The D has ECM, very good for the Clan Invasion era (though the 1300 BV hurts thanks to that ERPPC).
One important aspect of the Boosted C3s is that while it's more resistant to ECM, it also costs 7% per unit in the network rather than 5%, so if you thought 5% was already too expensive then the Boosted system is horrible.
One really powerful aspect of the C3i is that to cut a unit off from the network, it must be completely within a hostile ECM bubble. The regular C3 system can have an element cut off if the line between the Slave and Master has hostile ECM, a weakness the C3i (and Nova CEWS) does not have. Also, the Ghost Bears used C3i from at least the 3080's through the 3090's. While fluff text indicates that the Hussars and Drakkons in the Omega Galaxy made use of C3i on their omnis, we only have two PR mechs (Ursus PR and Beowulf IIC PR) that have stat blocks with C3i on them.
Honestly, I kinda hope/wish we'd see a Clan C3 based on that, but make it a bit unique by doing something like having an ECM built in. Maybe have the ECM bubble be smaller (kinda like the Nova CEWS), which would make getting "too close" dangerous since getting within 1-2 hexes of a hostile ECM unit would cut off the Clan mech from the network.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. I've been using C3 a lot with my local group lately, and we usually play 4500 or 6500 BV with FCCW era limits. Which means a lot of units don't have ECM yet.
The Phawk 8CS will generate 6 heat running, 4 heat walking, and 2 heat standing still. Which is actually not a problem either - it's still well-sinked for anything but jumping. I would move the ECM if I were them, tho - arms are pretty detachable and having it pad those torso crits is a good idea.
@@marcusshiffler2614 hmm maybe. Ya I think it's a solid unit even with XXL. It gets hot when jumping but it's less reliant on jumps with that good ground speed.
C3 is fun in campaigns, where you do not care for your forces BV.
@@A88mph that is probably its best use for sure. I have to try running a Comstar Level II all with C3i at some point haha
C3 is fun, C3i is scary, and ecm is the enemy
@@RyeFields ECM is a real problem... it's hard to deal.with if ur not very cognizant of the ECM threat range(IE, where can the enemy ECM bubble end up?)
So you need to use Boosted C3, which doesn't get blocked by ECM (angel ecm blocks it)
Princess seems to know about C3 well enough that when I was testing a lance with a C3M Templar config, the enemy ECM carrier beelined to it. This broke my whole network the whole time it was humping my Templar's leg.
Lots of errors in this video :/ ECM is countered by ECCM which is an optional TacOps rule
@TheManyVoicesVA Where did you read about the rule drawing the line of sight through the ECM is not sufficient to disrupt the more powerful computer? That seems wrong.
@@markcalhoun9480 it's a new errata that dropped very recently.
@TheManyVoicesVA From which book?
C3 and C3i BattleValue Calculation: 1. Find your BV before Gunnery/Pilot. 2. Multiply that BV value in Step 1 by 0.05 (5%) 3. Multiply the value from Step 2 by the number of units in the C3/C3i network. 4. Add this number to BV from step 1. 4. Now use the number from Step 4 in your Gunnery/Pilot calculation.
There is the Strider STR-OM as a C3M option. If you are playing a company sized engagement, two of these can allow you a network of 11 units and your masters can just go sit at the bottom of the lake or hide in a nice safe corner for the engagement.
607 BV means that you aren't paying much for you masters which you don't want exposed to combat either.
It's generally considered to be of poor sportsmansmanship to do this tho, so I wouldn't make a habit of it.
Official rules says if your C3 is at the bottom of a lake, it only affects units that are underwater with it. But a Skulker C3M doing its' best to be unnoticed is functioning exactly as intended.
The most difficult thing with C3 is finding players who don't mind playing against it. It can be kinda stompy, especially if the other player isn't well aware of how to play against it. There is, however, nothing quite as satisfying as slamming gauss slugs into targets 20 hexes away on 4's. It's possibly even more satisfying than the crackling sound an overcharged PPC makes.
The Barghest deserves a mention as it mounts an IHGR and a C3 slave, meaning it can deliver that yummy 22 points from quite the distance.
Definitely not an ideal unit option.
The Blitzkrieg BTZ-4F also deserves a mention as a nice unit that can jump 7 and trade between a range 4-6 spotter and a range 18 sniper. It's kinda expensive to fit into a c3 network tho.
Yes! The video you should've made before I disgraced myself against the Smoke Jaguars. 😂
So, does the C3 only gather targeting data off the weapons you've fired? Which is why you recommended the Enforcer get within 3 hexes with its VSP?
@@WolfHreda no it gathers it from the mech's position. You dont have to fire any weapons, actually. The sprint would be kinda useless if u needed to fire weapons lol.
@TheManyVoicesVA okay, just to be sure, if that Enforcer is within 5 hexes of the target, and the Naginata is 21 hexes away from the target, its LRMs target as if they're being fired at short range, and there's no minimum range penalty because they're not within minimum range.
@WolfHreda that is correct! Cover still applies(from the firer, not the spotter, as I said) but min ranges only count from the firer. IE if the target is 5 hexes from the spotter, no problem. If it's 5 hexes from the shooter, now you get penalties.
(the 3 hex comment was so that MRMs could get their short range TNs)
@@ObiwanNekody this is the right answer lol
Isn’t there some Partisan tanks with C3 Slave and Master (even double Masters for a company)
Yes. They aren't horrible options if you want to go cheap, but they are kinda lightly armored. I have sometimes used the Company Command one, the low cost and reasonably long ranged LB10x ACs are definitely workable.
In general tanks make excellent c3m units, the Challenger XI is one of my favorites.
There is a Schreck that is pretty nice too, and the Schiltron has multiple excellent c3m options.
As I understand the Alpha Strike rules, C3 is already included in the PV cost of units and it costs nothing to set up the network.
I kinda don't like this as it slightly punishes units that have but don't use C3 and makes C3 forces seem extremely cheap to deploy.
(I know this was about classic but I felt this was worth mentioning in the comments at least)
One of the reasons company level C3 in AlphaStrike is broken
How have I noticed that Phoenix Hawk before?
Oh, XXL
i am surprised they didn’t have ai in the mech lol.u have no pilot