Machining a Wood Lathe Spindle Ep. 3
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- The next phase of the spindle is getting the hole drilled through the full length of the shaft and boring the Morse taper on the spindle nose end. I'll setup a MT dead center to indicate the angle using the compound slide.
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Since I saw several commenting about the angle error difference between the MT4 setting and it being different than an MT2, Though true but assuming that the reamer was in fact a MT2 Reamer and not just a generic 3° reamer, then the reamer definitely cleaned up the error and here's why...
The MT4 taper angle is slightly larger than the MT2 and thus when the initial boring op cuts were made to bring it to size, the small end would have been too small (about .005" too small in diameter compared to what it should be for the given big end diameter) so as long as the reamer did progress to the point that it was cutting to some degree on the big end, it definitely cleaned up the entire taper / length because it would have had to cut the small end first and progressed outward towards the big end.
This right here and end of story. I got curious about this discussion and drew it in my software.
@@wolffengineering7038 Granted, I'm sure it was pretty quick for you to sketch out in whatever software you use as I could sketch this is in AutoCAD and / or SolidWorks in short order but it can be calculated faster as its just a simple basic Trig (Tan Function) calculation.
Just take the Tan of the half angle for each and multiply that by the spec length for the MT2 (which is 2.56") that will tell you the radial difference between the big end and small end. By doing that, you see that the radial difference is greater for the MT4 taper and thus the Small end diameter is smaller
Then you can take it a step further and multiply that value by two and subtract that from the large end diameter and know what the small end diameter is.
This is why, if you have to error and then use a different tool to correct the error when it comes to tapers, you want the larger error (too small diameter error) to be inboard with the smallest error (most correct diameter) outboard, that way its a simple visual reference of the outboard end that is easy to see. The moment it starts to show indication that its cutting, then the entire length has been cut since the cutting will start at the inboard (largest error) end and work its way out to the smallest error.
@@CJ-ty8sv yes, it was about 1 minute
Yep but if he didn't ream right to the end, then the taper would be unsupported right where it's most critical. The owner of the lathe should invest in a reamer of his own and a bottle of blue to make sure.
@@MattOGormanSmith Sorry but even reaming several thou short is not going to have any detrimental effect, especially in an application that sees little to no radial loading. especially being that its only roughly a 3° included angle taper Hell, even hundred thou short in this type of application will have no negative effect.
If it was a milling application taper, like say a CAT40 taper (i.e., something wit a much larger included angle and that sees pretty substantial radial loading (comparatively speaking), then yes, no doubt but here? nope, and no reason for the lathe owner to invest in a $50 + dollar tool (for a good one that you can trust its accuracy) that he or she will likely never use again after this likely to be 1 time use.
nice to see the spring center Pierre and I made. cheers
I'm sure I wasn't the only viewer sitting on the edge of my chair chewing my fingernails, Adam, after you set up to bore the taper using a #4 Morse taper instead of a #2. 🫣 But then I remembered you showing the #2 reamer at the start of the series and was relieved after you reamed it to a perfect fit for a #2. 😅 Talk about drama! 😆😆
Why there are different dimensions for each Morse taper is that in 1864, instead of simply specifying the standard, the Bureau of Standards used a master gage supplied by the manufacturer. The manufacturer made two master gages and sent one to the Bureau of Standards which became the National Standard. Accurately measuring a cylindrical taper is a bit tricky, especially back then without today's precision measuring instruments, Stephen A. Morse was trying to get a taper of 5/8" per foot which is 0.0521" per inch. Since he had to make two master gages for each taper #0 through #7, making two of each size that matched so one could be sent to the Bureau was more important, and significantly easier, than making eighteen master gages for the series of nine individual tapers match the target taper. Any of us who has tried to make two parts exactly the same can appreciate his challenge. 😆 Interestingly, Morse tapers are used in surgical procedures for hip implants and such.
(As an aside, I recently discovered that to this day the threads of screws in sewing machines are proprietary. Sewing machines began to be manufactured in the 1800's before standards for things like screw threads were common. Manufacturers like Singer kept their screw threads proprietary to prevent others from copying their machines and supplying parts. An owner of their machine had to get repair parts from them.)
On a wood lathe the through hole is, of course, necessary for a knockout bar to eject the spur center which is often used for rough turning bowls or hollow forms or for turning spindles.
This was an very interesting project with lots of good operations. Good job, Adam!
I’m glad I’m not the only one that was stressed out during this. I’m surprised it seemed to fit as well as it did before reaming, though. At least the M4 angle is > M2 angle, so it could be fixed. I am surprised the discrepancy didn’t get recognized, and addressed, though.
Adam other comments are filled with confusion regarding using a MT4 taper to set the angle for a MT2 bore. Can you lend clarity to this confusion?
I was confused by this as well since a MT2 has an included angle of 2.86 degree (.049951/inch) and a MT4 has an included angle of 2.97 degree (.051938/inch), I guess using the MT2 reamer is sufficient to take out the tenth of a degree difference....?
Yeah ... I'm confused too. I know he was going to ream it but still it should have been rough bored to the correct spec.
Very nice work! On the vibration issues with the long boringbar...may I suggest the following... go to the local vehiclewheel balancing shop and ask for some self adhesive balancing lead (used for balancing alloy wheels) ....adhere a strip on the TOPside of your boringbar and make sure that you make a slight bend in the middle of the lenght (so that THAT area wont adhere to the boringbar!) Give it a try! The reasoning is.. by adding the mass of the lead you shift the harmonics...and that non-sticking area in the middle will also dampening vibrations on basis of that local weight and the stickiness of the adhesive in the borderregion from adherd and not adherd. Succes and greatings from the Netherlands😊
Thanks a lot. That’s an excellent suggestion that should work well for dampening the vibrations.
@@SteveColluns-hm2xx Welcome back Steve, heard you were leaving the comment section, but then again many hurtful comments by you to others and about others and from others to you and your ilk do not indicate that to me. Things like "Don't let the door hit ya in the ass" to encourage your departure following many of your comments about Abom being a tool of the monies and a salesman do seem to foretell your being like a tree in fall and turning.
It so happened, that I had today the same back and forth drilling, just barely made it... Nice precison machinning, Adam, an art of a real expert!
The Matthews lathe never ceases to amaze me how smooth and quiet running it is (All except the DRO squaking all the live long day)
I have machined lots of parts with my cheap chinese midsize lathe thanks to you Adam, you have always inspired me and you are such a great teacher. Bought my lathe 6 years ago, and I have machined parts for skilifts, pulleys, bushings and axle shafts for several industrial lawn mowers, snowmobiles, and so on. And I'm about to start my own business! All of this would never had happened if I didn't stumble across your channel many years ago, and I got so amazed by what you did and how high your standard was. I owned one used Swedish, and in very good condition, vernier calipers when I bought my lathe, and now I own so many precision tools which I use to machine parts to a precision I didn't even know was possible.
Big thanks Adam for everything that you do for making videos, and my greatest thanks for introducing me to manual machining.
Victor, Sweden
The through hole is very important at a knock out bar is often used to get the drive center knocked out of the spindle. It is also used for vacuum chucks that are used to hold bowls for final external turning to remove the tenon that was used for the internal turning process and sometimes even for a draw bar this used to hold specific drives and other attachments. Hope this helps explain why the through hole is really necessary.
I had no idea how to measure and cut a morse taper with a boring bar. Thanks for the lesson!
You should blue up that morse taper fit to see the contact after reaming with MT2 reamer. MT4 gives you incorrect angle to indicate. Should always indicate from the same size morse taper.
I'm sitting here wondering why he's indicating a MT2 taper with a MT4 shank. Glad I'm not the only one that's confused.
Exactly what the doctor ordered a nice long relaxing video with Adam to sooth the nerves :D
At first I thought the gib on your compound rest was hanging out and was suppose to travel with the compound rest but then I noticed it's stationary fixed to the inside dovetail of that lathe. Anyway love the work as usual. You are a Pro and I have learned a ton from watching. Thanks.........
As always; Inspirational and entertaining. My wife is like, why do you sit here watching people making things on TH-cam... Then I point out the kids watching other people play video games... On you tube. I've successfully made parts and modifications on parts based on observationally acquired knowledge from this channel...
Something I didn't quite understand. You used a MT4 dead centre to set the compound angle for boring a MT3 socket. My references show that Morse tapers have different angles albeit very slightly different. However I guess that the reamer looked as though it took care of that and would explain the initial load of chips on the first pass of the reamer.
Fair point but like Adam did in the video, he used a 'standard' MT3 finish reamer. Most of the taper in my shop are MT2. I bought an MT2 finish reamer and dressed out all the sockets the same. Some were amazingly cruddy and some were a tad off. I also made a "standard" MT2 socket and plug so I now have a handy reference for whenever I make tapered tooling for my shop. I also bought the MT2 roughing reamer. Step drill the bore, rough ream, then finish ream, blue up and test with my in-house standard.
With the technique that Adam used with drilling then using the boring bar it pretty much guarantees that anything mounted in the taper will run true to the spindle.
@@utidjian I agree. Concentricity is most important here and the use of the readily available MT4 centre as a starting point for the ultimate shape is a good choice. Just as important was showing how to set the compound to duplicate the taper, an exercise that machinists to be aware of.
It's MT 2 not MT 3.
Very nicely done. You are the man.
Jet tools have never seen such precision.
Adam, i'm just a DIYer. I am always amazed at your machining skill. You machine these parts according to how you feel comfortable. Thanks alot.
As a non-machinist just interested in this for learning purposes, I think it would be cool if you did a video going through all of the different oils/lubricants/protectants you use and what they are used for. I hear you talk about weigh oil, cutting oil, anchor lube, CRC XYZ cans, etc. They all seem to have a different purpose and I would find that interesting to watch.
Its looking great. The purpose of the hole running through the center is to use a knock out bar to get the drive spur out if you use one in the morse taper.
What a relief! I have been waiting for this episode to see your methodology for deep hole drilling. I am a retired gunsmith and aside from working on guns I have used my very small lathe to make tools and other sundry products over the years. Deep hole drilling has always been the bane of my existence. Seeing that we both use the exact same method regardless of size / length of drill helps me to relax a bit. I thought I was the only one on the planet who took so long to drill one.
hmmmm! not sure about setting the compound angle off of a #4 morse taper, to bore for a #2 morse. According to what I read, it said the angles varied depending on the taper size!
They are all very close, but, that's another reason to use the reamer.
I would have liked to see a fit test using spot dye to check the fit.@@brettbuck7362
thats what i thought too, all the morsecone 1,2,3,... has a slight different degree of taper among them (were talking 1,87°,2,05° as an example) they have to be exact, thats how to obtain the precission
The difference between the two is .05 degrees, it's probably not a big deal. Plus he's got the right reamer.
Man I just love them Dormer twist drills. They cut beautifully out of the box and last a good long time if you’re mindful with use.
You are one bad ass Machinists Adam! Always love watching you do your magic! 🫡
the through hole in the spindle is so you can use a rod to push out the tool from the morse taper.
the most common thing to go in there would be a Drive Center, which is like a dead center with teeth that can dig into wood to drive it.
I have some mandels for turning pens for my lathe that go into a morse taper.
another use could be for a vacuum chuck.
I could not have said it better.
Another good one.
The 10mm bore down the middle it commonly used in woodworking lathes to place a tool to tap out the dead/live center, so it is pretty important that it exists, but perhaps not important to be perfect (although imperfections may affect balance).
The lathe sounds smooth and seems to be a great machine!! 🙂
I follow you, Steve Summers, and Keith Rucker, plus a couple of others, continuously, since you do very interesting things with mechanical tools. I was a Computer Engineer, but watching hardware being restored, used, and modified is fascinating. My compliments!
I don’t think that MT2 reamer took out enough material to fix the error from setting up with a MT4. Perhaps use some blueing with a known good MT2 taper tool shank and check it.
As long as the reamer did touch and make some sort of cut on the big end, then it definitely cleaned up the error for the full length because the MT4 has a larger angle than the MT2 which means that by setting to the MT4 initially, the small end diameter would have been .005" too small when the big end was at size thus the reamer would cut at the small end first and progress to cutting outward towards the big end as it cut deeper.
well it did change the major diameter so it had to clean up the whole length of the taper.
I’m really enjoying this video series. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
Great vid Adam .. thanks .. best to you and Abby . God bless.
I really liked to see how you actually operate the lathe and not just the cutting. Hope to see more of that in the future.
The through hole is used for a knock out bar and can also be used with a vacuum chuck.
Kinda figured the hole was to knock out whatever was in the Morse taper. Not familiar with vacuum chuck. Anyway, Adam showed some things that I didn't know how to do. Did wonder about using the #4 Morse taper setup.
Always, adam. A pleasure to watch you work. Thank you.
Joy to watch you work
I like how your drill grinds are perfect!! 🙂
Excellent video Adam. Thanks.
The 10mm hole through the spindle is used with a knockout bar to drive out drills, Jacob chucks and spur centers used in the head stock
I'm looking forward to seeing your mill work.
Looking at the overall lathe setup to Indicate the taper, works really well visually. Gives Mr Average a good insight of how to setup tapers for Internal as well as External Tapers.
Nice lathe works.
Keep up the good works, & will catch you on the next Installment.
just for information the hole goes through the piece so you can run a vacuum chuck (a cup with a rubber gasket that when vacuum to it can hold bowls or plates to finish the bottom) the vacuum pipe goes in the bac end of the piece
also with no way to knock the morse taper out you push a rod through it
Definitely enjoyed the video. Great filming. Thanks
The thru hole is to be used for removing what ever you put in the Morse taper.
Hello Abom. You use a Morse Taper MT4 as a pattern for scanning. However, you cannot make a Morse taper MT2 with this measuring because the angles of the different cones are also minimal different. In MT4 the half angle is 1 degree 29' 15" but in MT2 it is 1 degree 25' 50".
I was going to say, an MT4 is huge for that spindle, I just machined a new spindle for my 1950 Walker-Turner wood lathe and it was only an MT2, the MT2 will never seat correctly in a MT4 taper.
I was about to make the same comment. But if you use this angle as a rough measurement to rough machine the taper before finishing using a mt2 reamer, then it works probably just fine. It would be nice though if this was detailed in the introduction.
You are correct Robby
😂 trust the man. He knows what he's doing. He is Mr. Wizard with a manual lathe. You're thinking no way in hell that will work. And boom, when he's done, it's absolutely perfect lol
He finished with a MT2 reamer, how will it not work..lol?
Beautiful looking part. The surface finish is something I only dream of!
This project has inspired me to consider making a new spindle for my 20" Walker Turner drill press with a bent spindle that straightening efforts have not fully resolved. One thing I noted in the video is that you made no mention that each Morse taper is a different, a #2 is .5994 ipf and a #4 is .6233 ipf unlike a Jarno that is a constant .6000 ips . Using the #2 reamer I'm sure has corrected the angular difference.
Thanks a 79❤
Hey adam! Most of the time a wood worker will use a drive spur in that taper for say, turning table or chair legs, or anything where you cant have a chuck in the way!
Fascinating. Thank you!
Nice job as always 👍
The through hole allows you to push the drive center out of the morse taper with a long metal rod. Give it a firm tap and the tool just pops out.
Most excellent. I really enjoyed this.
Always Adam!
Really enjoyed this. Love the simple setup for the Morse taper.
Love the projects like this. Lots of stuff to watch and learn.
A small part....but it took every different lathe operation to complete. A excelent video series on this part. Looking forward to seeing the milling operations. Cheers from Tennessee
Getting close and then using a reamer was clever. Thanks for another excellent video with some very interesting tips and suggestions. Always enjoy your videos, Adam.
No two Morse tapers angles are the same angle . " Machinery's Handbook"
That's what I was thinking too.
Because of using a reamer afterwards, the Morse taper angle should not be that critical. Of course no two Morse tapers are the same, but they are not too far off as well.
As soon as he said what he was doing I thought, none are the same. A #2 is 0.59941" per foot, a #5 is 0.63151" per foot.
Unless he is stopping short and teaming it to size.
@@dennisleadbetter7721trust the wizard ;)
...
MT2 Angle 1 deg 25 min 50 sec
MT3 Angle 1 deg 26 min 16 sec
MT4 Angle 1 deg 29 min 15 sec
...
per machinery's handbook the no2 morse and the number 4 morse have different angles. no2 is .04995/in and no4 is .05193/in - close but not the same.
You can't set up a morse 2 using a morse 4 - or any other size for that matter.
Thanks for sharing. Thanks for the lesson, that a 4 and a 2 is that similar.
Great work
aAdam, I always enjoy your videos , including this series. I look forward to your postings every weep. Keep it up!
MaxWallace6628, in machine work we hope it's not a weep, nice typo.
Excellent video. Thanks.
Thanks for the show Adam
Awesome, can't believe all the work that goes into making that shaft. I've learned a lot from this series, thanks!!!!!!
best most satisfying and relaxing channel on this site
dang while i was typing the dog swiped my sandwich...
1:13 ... It's to tap out the morse taper centre when it gets stuck in there by pressure.
luv it
Draw bar and tapping out the dead centers that are tight. I have a nice Collett that fits in my M4 spindle, and I have a draw bar tying it to the lathe, so it won't spin out.
Once again, Outstanding Brother! 👌👍💪
Adam - the thru hole is for a drawbar to hold #2 MT collets, and for a knock out bar to remove centers, spur drives and other MT tooling. lots of spindle turnong starts out being turned with a spur drive, at least initially. great video. thanks for sharing.
That's been explained several times but he clearly doesn't read comments so you're wasting your time.
@@wallbawden5511 The reason is irrelevant, he doesn't read comments so it's pointless commenting and pointing out his misunderstanding of why it's made the way it is because he doesn't care. He might as well turn off commenting but that tends to kill views as people like to think they're contributing even if they're ignored.
There is a vacuum line you can put thru the back of the chuck to hold a bole in place while you are sanding finishing the bottom of the bole.
Awesome series (so far)... :-)
Loved it, Adam. Great machining video.
Well I’ve learned here again, that you don’t necessarily have to have the right tooling to get the job done. Very interesting to see the MT4 to MT2 magic trick swap. Adam must be chuckling at the comments in the background. Thank you Adam for helping me think outside the box. Another reason why you’re one of the greatest on YT.
If you REALLY want to smooth that taper up, you could put some lapping compound on that Morse taper drill shank and lap the taper in...
I just saw that this chuck is made in my country Poland ;D glad to see that you use our country products ;D Anyway you did great job as always ;D Peace !
You've got the part looking super! That finish is excellent. 👍
Great Job........Beautiful Work.................
i think that guy gonna be very sastified
For those super deep holes I like to use spade drills. easy to just weld on a shank and go deeper if you have to.
I am not a machinist but it's not hard to see that is a sweet lathe.
Love it when just enough bit length is left to finish out the bore (@@)!. Sorry I have been slacking on dropping in and watching, but chemo and 5 days with 60 mile round trips will drain an elephant, hehe! That's one nice spindle project, keep on keeping on, Bear
Sorry Sir I do hate to say this buy a No 2MT is 0.04995" per inch & a No 4MT is 0.05193" per inch. It being a common miss conception to believe they are all the same. You need to check your Books first. My books give two very slight differences So I give you the Machinery Handbook One. I am taught to use the same size taper as the one you wish to copy.
But Adam finished it off with an 2MT reamer which would have finished it off at the exact angle. The initial boring didn't have to be spot on.
Thanks for pointing this out. I noticed the same thing having machined Morse tapers without a reamer to correct the error. Mr Stephen A Morse has a lot to answer for. Why couldn’t he have standardised on a 3 degree included angle for all Morse taper sizes instead of making each one a different angle. Probably to make it harder for competitors to copy?
MT4 tapers more than MT2, so the material would need to be removed at the narrow end (i.e.: down inside the hole) in order to convert MT4 to MT2. About .002 inch/inch x 2-1/2 inches = 0.005" (approx.), which is a lot of material for a reamer to remove. If you watch closely, you will see that he gets the same reading with his digital caliper (0.6975") both before and after the reaming process. It would only be after you see the caliper reading having increased that you would know that enough material has been removed to ensure the conversion.
Just one more of your bunch of great jobs, man !
25.53 When I first started at the machine shop I ran a "Horizontal Pecker Drill" (sometimes called a "Drill Pecker") NOT to be confused with a "Wood Pecker Drill" ...
It was pneumatically and automatically operated and did pretty much Adam is doing here, only a bit faster.
Funny about getting it stuck, I was about to yell at the screen "don't stick it in there too hard, you'll never get it out again!" Because that is exactly the sort of thing I would do .
This is how you bore a MT2 taper hole,Adam.Thank you.
Also nice job!
Don't I know that feeling just enough🤣
Great to learn from you! Thanks so much.
The Mors 4 taper is different from the Mors 2 taper.
MT 04 is 1.4876° and MT02 is 1.4307°. So you cannot setup an MT02 with an MT04.
Came here to say the same thing, All the morse tapers have different degree angles so this indication setup won't work. But its a good example of how to zero to the internal taper if you have the external to measure off of.
He did that to get close and then used the reamer in order to make it perfect.
@@TheDandyMann No he did not. He did not know the angles are different. Could have used the reamer to set the topslide.
@@Petertje94 He could have, but he didn't. He still ended up with the right taper with the finish reamer anyway. His way just made the reamer take more off when finishing.
@@SpakasAlbert exactly. If it was a good fit you don't ream the hole 17 times after.
Another video well done. It looks like jewelry.
Good job
cool
This reminds me of the a large drill I had to grind a pilot on to . The problem was the Morse taper was way off . The size was correct at the large end or at the gage line. The problem was at the small end of the taper it was about .010- .015" under size. The drill as you might guess was made in China.
I was able to get the job done . I told the customer I couldn't guarentee how true it would run. I couldn't see how he could hold it by the taper. He never complained about it.
Awesome video!
With wood turning the primary center that would be used on the drive end would be a drive center.
Lovely.