Hey Mr. Gilmore. This video is a dedicated look at the question I posted on your VPC1 review. Thank you for going into this. I did end up going with the PX5S rather than the VPC1. As a pianist who has only ever played acoustic I'm sure I would have been much happier with the VPC1's action but as a newb adventurer into the world of MIDI, VSTs and composition on the PC I feel I am getting a lot more with the Privia. The features - particularly the sound designing/hex features are overwhelming but very, very cool. Also, while it can't compare to my grand piano it does feel quite good - better than anything in its price range and in my opinion better than many workstations double its price. Many thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
Perhaps a valid comparison would be to take the MIDI out of the VPC1 into the Privia. That way there is not difference at all in the sound when you're coming sustain, legato and key release while playing. You're also not taking Casio's Hammer Response Feature into consideration. That will change the response time of repeated notes. Hammer response can be disabled. You also fail to mention that the PX-5S sends high resolution MIDI velocity which makes it a more accurate controller for using it with piano software products such as Pianoteq - sending 16256 steps of velocity resolution instead of 128.
Absolutely no question that the Privia series excels in action - and even sound - in its price class - I make no qualms about letting the world know that its my first choice for gigging! However, paper/technical specifications aside, professional pianists will be able to duplicate what I've shown between the two (not so much with your average pianist). The HighRes MIDI, along with other specs that are impressive on paper, just don't cut it when a professional pianist sits down at the two boards. I've played just about every concert grand piano in the world, and I've played them since age 5. I have yet to find anything that comes as close to a concert grand than the VPC1 for action and the amount of control a professional pianist has over their performance. The action is modeled after the $200k Kawai EX 9' concert grand - almost identical! This makes it my first choice for professional studio work. Don't forget that Kawai is one of the two keyboard manufacturers that actually build fine concert grand pianos (the other is Yamaha). I would think Casio would be flattered in that I chose their (excellent) action to compare against the VPC1 in this particular video.... a $2k controller vs a
PianoManChuck Except you don't really play fast repetitions by whacking one finger as fast as you can on a key (that's a recipe for carpal tunnel syndrome)... you alternate fingers on a single key . That would definitely impact the way the keyboard responds, I'm sure. Also, you should have only taken into account the MIDI output from both boards, controlling a 3rd party piano (say, Pianoteq). Using internal sound of Casio vs whatever you used for VPC1 doesn't give them equal ground to judge response of the sound to the MIDI data - it would depend on how Casio programmed their internal sounds.
PianoManChuck I do think it has something to do with the Hammer Response setting, though. I'm currently looking to buy an 88-keys MIDI controller and was more or less left with the names 'Roland A-88' and 'Casio Privia PX-5S'. A new owner on one forum started by complaining how he couldn't play Billy Joel's "Angry Young Man" with the PX-5S even though other users told him he should be able to execute fast tremolos with ease. One of them then told him to set the Hammer Response to zero, after which the owner replied back saying it had fixed the performance issues and enabled him to perform that song. So I'd say you not taking notice of that feature of the Casio in the video while also rather ignoring the statements 'Casio Music Gear' made in their comment regarding it and your usage of different sound banks makes it seem like your comparison wasn't accurate. So overall the PX-5S seems like the better option for me now, as I ended up reading more positive opinions regarding its keys and action than the Roland S-88, while it also has more switches for MIDI manipulation which I guess could be handy at times, *but why does it solely have two on/off pedal inputs?* That's really strange considering how Casio seems to have designed it to give an overall piano-feel, in addition to being a MIDI controller. Not being able to put a continuous control pedal and having only two inputs seems problematic. Is there any way to couple the PX-5S as a MIDI controller with a full 3-pedal set/expression pedal (I have a Babyface Pro if that could somehow help)? Or is there perhaps another keyboard from their product line which has similar MIDI controller features but also a complete pedal support? On the Casio website it seems to be either this or other Privia models which support 3 pedals but have no MIDI controlling knobs. And Mario Krušelj I believe you've replied to my thread on Gearslutz.com where you also mentioned the PX-5S.
+Tal Lin - Valid points about hammer response... but this comparison was an 'out of the box' comparison. Yes, that was an oversight on Casio's part about not having an assignable (ie: expression) pedal input on the PX-5S. You might want to check into Casio's new PX-560 which DOES have one of those pedal inputs (unfortunately, there's only 1 assignable and 1 on/off pedal input for a total of two pedal inputs).
PianoManChuck Could be what this was in practice, but that's rather a small yet important setting to overlook regarding this specific matter. Anyway, thanks for the reply. I've searched a bit about the PX-560, I guess that's better than having no expression/whatever input at all (yet only a half-way measure), but as the Casio website states you can optionally purchase the SP-33 -which is a 3-pedal unit- how does it only have 2 inputs? Either way, I'm not sure about its benefits regarding other aspects: it seems to have less controls for MIDI manipulation while I'm also less interested in the on-board speakers/internal sound features overall. I read there are some ways to pair an expression pedal with the PX-5S, which should close the deal for me, but I'm not sure how exactly. Here's an article I've found which compares the two models: casiomusicgear.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/the-definitive-px-5s-vs-px-560-comparison/
Very informative. Does (or could) a 2 sensor keyboard retrigger the note based on the time difference between the open/close time of the bottom switch? This would be only done when the top (initial) sensor was still active (not a full release). As the key lifts, bottom sensor opens, timer starts and when bottom sensor closes again, note is triggered with velocity.
Chuck, if you don't mind me asking. How does a Yamaha p115 compare with these two keyboards? I know it doesn't have triple technology but do the notes disappear gradually or rapidly?
two possible explanations for the quantity of repetitions you can make in 1 second : 1. sensors are more spaced or 2. the key come back more slowly; in the two case, repeat the notes need more time
Great demo... shows why strings are still in use with Poly AT still sitting back in the 80's and a few VAX77s;-). If you want to emulate a string... and who doesn't... you need higher resolution expression capabilities as well as Poly AT and release velocity. But that costs money and until people realize what they are missing they won't know what to ask for.
Hi, after you wrote this a year ago, there's the ultimate keyboard for strings... it's called Expressive E Osmose. You get Poly AT, release velocity, per-note polyphonic swell (basically, you control the velocity of each note by its key depth, from the moment you press it until final release. Also, each key can wiggle (after a slight bit of travel) on its own for polyphonic pitch bending. The onboard string sounds are physical modeling, fbow, but it also can be used to control MIDI instruments which can handle MPE (which is regular MIDI with a protocol that puts each note on its own channel). If you want a keyboard for playing expressive strings sounds, that's the best available in 2023.
Hope this isn't considered a dumb question but when you were demonstrating the pure mechanical sounds of the keybeds on both instruments, were you using your vocal mic to pick-up the sound? I didn't see any other microphones. If this is the case then wouldn't the noise of the Casio be louder than the Kawai, since the mic was closer to the Casio? Just wondering...
Chuck!luuuuv ur videos bro! Very informative.. I gotta ask..how many boards do u own? Lol u have all the awesome keyboards. Lol I would never leave my house. Lol
Thanks, Mathew! At this point, 4 88-key boards and 2 keytars... but I "have" more boards here than I "own"... (some boards are here temporarily, but whatever board comes and goes, I try to do a review on it if I think its a worthwhile board)!
Nice Chuck this indeed is fascinating I've had a bit of concern about these .....issue's its a minor detail because these are still stage piano's, I would found it a concern when it would be a piano for at home. But true on the Kawai its implemented very well.
Very informative comparison. Thanks. Interesting would be a comparison of similar priced key actions to the VPC-1 action. From the top of my head the new Yamahas (CP4 and CLP 5xx-Series) and the Roland PHA 4 (RD-800, DP-90se, HP-506) and even Kawai's RH2 action (MP-7, CN-34).
The Kawai actions implement the same triple-sensor technology... the newer actions of say, the MP11, employ Kawai's GF (Grand Feel) which is basically the same as the RM3II but with the pivot point placed further back.
lophiomys The RH2 Action on the MP7, from what I read has more traditional keyboard keys (plastic) and a shorter hammer action mechanism. However, I read that you can actually adjust the key-strike location on the RH2 so you can have a softer 'feel' when playing organs and synths, and a heavier feel when playing piano, for instance.
Thanks for showing the key "thump" (what I call it). I have a Yamaha S90 XS and sometimes the "thump" is louder than the note (when playing soft). The Kawai looks like a fantastic keyboard, but it is designed to imitate a real piano more that other keyboard platforms. I'm sure as the technology gets cheaper that more of the higher end keyboards will get the triple sensor. It's fascinating how far the technology of keyboards has come.
The Yamaha S90 XS is an awesome keyboard (but it weighs a lot)!! There's a lot of awesome 2-sensor boards - some of which "feel" better than some of the 3-sensor boards out there! Anytime something "feels" good, the more in control you can be! 3-sensor boards are starting to appear more and more (but still in the minority at this time).
Tell me about it. In a soft carrying case and with all of cords, foot switches and music I think it weighs nearly 65 pounds and I have to carry it down stairs at my house when to go to a gig!
PianoManChuck I primarily use the M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 for live and home use. And I have trouble using it sometimes because I feel the action can't keep up with my playing. Do you know if the Pro 88 is dual or triple sensored? Will that be the reason for the response problem? Thanks!
***** Your M-Audio keyboard is dual sensor and uses semi-weighted keys, not fully weighted keys. Not a serious controller/board for pianists... sorry :(
I have the px5s. The action is good for hitting some chords but if you want to play thrills or fast repeating notes, you will long for another brand such as Kawai or Yamaha. So the triple sensor action from Casio makes not much sense to me.
the problem with casio privia and other cheaper keyboard, it's key are very light and don't move fastly, and don't come back easily to their initial position.
I really appreciate the time you have spent sharing your insights into the Casio PX-5s.
Thank you.
Great demo thanks. Tried to find this type of comparison, happy I stumbled upon your channel
Hey Mr. Gilmore. This video is a dedicated look at the question I posted on your VPC1 review. Thank you for going into this. I did end up going with the PX5S rather than the VPC1. As a pianist who has only ever played acoustic I'm sure I would have been much happier with the VPC1's action but as a newb adventurer into the world of MIDI, VSTs and composition on the PC I feel I am getting a lot more with the Privia. The features - particularly the sound designing/hex features are overwhelming but very, very cool. Also, while it can't compare to my grand piano it does feel quite good - better than anything in its price range and in my opinion better than many workstations double its price. Many thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
Yes, I remember... and a great question too! You'll have a lot of fun with the PX5S, you get a lot of bang for the buck with it!!
Very good info. Would you please do this test also on Roland FP-10?
Great explanation as always - very much appreciated Chuck.
Perhaps a valid comparison would be to take the MIDI out of the VPC1 into the Privia. That way there is not difference at all in the sound when you're coming sustain, legato and key release while playing. You're also not taking Casio's Hammer Response Feature into consideration. That will change the response time of repeated notes. Hammer response can be disabled. You also fail to mention that the PX-5S sends high resolution MIDI velocity which makes it a more accurate controller for using it with piano software products such as Pianoteq - sending 16256 steps of velocity resolution instead of 128.
Absolutely no question that the Privia series excels in action - and even sound - in its price class - I make no qualms about letting the world know that its my first choice for gigging!
However, paper/technical specifications aside, professional pianists will be able to duplicate what I've shown between the two (not so much with your average pianist). The HighRes MIDI, along with other specs that are impressive on paper, just don't cut it when a professional pianist sits down at the two boards. I've played just about every concert grand piano in the world, and I've played them since age 5. I have yet to find anything that comes as close to a concert grand than the VPC1 for action and the amount of control a professional pianist has over their performance. The action is modeled after the $200k Kawai EX 9' concert grand - almost identical! This makes it my first choice for professional studio work.
Don't forget that Kawai is one of the two keyboard manufacturers that actually build fine concert grand pianos (the other is Yamaha). I would think Casio would be flattered in that I chose their (excellent) action to compare against the VPC1 in this particular video.... a $2k controller vs a
PianoManChuck
Except you don't really play fast repetitions by whacking one finger as fast as you can on a key (that's a recipe for carpal tunnel syndrome)... you alternate fingers on a single key . That would definitely impact the way the keyboard responds, I'm sure.
Also, you should have only taken into account the MIDI output from both boards, controlling a 3rd party piano (say, Pianoteq). Using internal sound of Casio vs whatever you used for VPC1 doesn't give them equal ground to judge response of the sound to the MIDI data - it would depend on how Casio programmed their internal sounds.
PianoManChuck I do think it has something to do with the Hammer Response setting, though. I'm currently looking to buy an 88-keys MIDI controller and was more or less left with the names 'Roland A-88' and 'Casio Privia PX-5S'. A new owner on one forum started by complaining how he couldn't play Billy Joel's "Angry Young Man" with the PX-5S even though other users told him he should be able to execute fast tremolos with ease. One of them then told him to set the Hammer Response to zero, after which the owner replied back saying it had fixed the performance issues and enabled him to perform that song. So I'd say you not taking notice of that feature of the Casio in the video while also rather ignoring the statements 'Casio Music Gear' made in their comment regarding it and your usage of different sound banks makes it seem like your comparison wasn't accurate.
So overall the PX-5S seems like the better option for me now, as I ended up reading more positive opinions regarding its keys and action than the Roland S-88, while it also has more switches for MIDI manipulation which I guess could be handy at times, *but why does it solely have two on/off pedal inputs?* That's really strange considering how Casio seems to have designed it to give an overall piano-feel, in addition to being a MIDI controller. Not being able to put a continuous control pedal and having only two inputs seems problematic. Is there any way to couple the PX-5S as a MIDI controller with a full 3-pedal set/expression pedal (I have a Babyface Pro if that could somehow help)? Or is there perhaps another keyboard from their product line which has similar MIDI controller features but also a complete pedal support? On the Casio website it seems to be either this or other Privia models which support 3 pedals but have no MIDI controlling knobs.
And Mario Krušelj I believe you've replied to my thread on Gearslutz.com where you also mentioned the PX-5S.
+Tal Lin - Valid points about hammer response... but this comparison was an 'out of the box' comparison.
Yes, that was an oversight on Casio's part about not having an assignable (ie: expression) pedal input on the PX-5S. You might want to check into Casio's new PX-560 which DOES have one of those pedal inputs (unfortunately, there's only 1 assignable and 1 on/off pedal input for a total of two pedal inputs).
PianoManChuck Could be what this was in practice, but that's rather a small yet important setting to overlook regarding this specific matter.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. I've searched a bit about the PX-560, I guess that's better than having no expression/whatever input at all (yet only a half-way measure), but as the Casio website states you can optionally purchase the SP-33 -which is a 3-pedal unit- how does it only have 2 inputs? Either way, I'm not sure about its benefits regarding other aspects: it seems to have less controls for MIDI manipulation while I'm also less interested in the on-board speakers/internal sound features overall. I read there are some ways to pair an expression pedal with the PX-5S, which should close the deal for me, but I'm not sure how exactly. Here's an article I've found which compares the two models: casiomusicgear.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/the-definitive-px-5s-vs-px-560-comparison/
Very informative.
Does (or could) a 2 sensor keyboard retrigger the note based on the time difference between the open/close time of the bottom switch? This would be only done when the top (initial) sensor was still active (not a full release). As the key lifts, bottom sensor opens, timer starts and when bottom sensor closes again, note is triggered with velocity.
Thanks PianoManChuck unique review on this subject!
Thanks for the video very informative.. Can you tell me how good the Roland RD2000 it has the ph50 Action Triple sensor.. Thankyou
Which Yamaha digital piano has triple sensors?
Chuck, if you don't mind me asking. How does a Yamaha p115 compare with these two keyboards? I know it doesn't have triple technology but do the notes disappear gradually or rapidly?
two possible explanations for the quantity of repetitions you can make in 1 second : 1. sensors are more spaced or 2. the key come back more slowly; in the two case, repeat the notes need more time
Great demo... shows why strings are still in use with Poly AT still sitting back in the 80's and a few VAX77s;-). If you want to emulate a string... and who doesn't... you need higher resolution expression capabilities as well as Poly AT and release velocity. But that costs money and until people realize what they are missing they won't know what to ask for.
Hi, after you wrote this a year ago, there's the ultimate keyboard for strings... it's called Expressive E Osmose. You get Poly AT, release velocity, per-note polyphonic swell (basically, you control the velocity of each note by its key depth, from the moment you press it until final release. Also, each key can wiggle (after a slight bit of travel) on its own for polyphonic pitch bending. The onboard string sounds are physical modeling, fbow, but it also can be used to control MIDI instruments which can handle MPE (which is regular MIDI with a protocol that puts each note on its own channel). If you want a keyboard for playing expressive strings sounds, that's the best available in 2023.
Hope this isn't considered a dumb question but when you were demonstrating the pure mechanical sounds of the keybeds on both instruments, were you using your vocal mic to pick-up the sound? I didn't see any other microphones. If this is the case then wouldn't the noise of the Casio be louder than the Kawai, since the mic was closer to the Casio? Just wondering...
Chuck!luuuuv ur videos bro! Very informative.. I gotta ask..how many boards do u own? Lol u have all the awesome keyboards. Lol I would never leave my house. Lol
Thanks, Mathew! At this point, 4 88-key boards and 2 keytars... but I "have" more boards here than I "own"... (some boards are here temporarily, but whatever board comes and goes, I try to do a review on it if I think its a worthwhile board)!
How does the mp7se compare to the vpc1?
Nice Chuck this indeed is fascinating I've had a bit of concern about these .....issue's its a minor detail because these are still stage piano's, I would found it a concern when it would be a piano for at home. But true on the Kawai its implemented very well.
Very informative comparison. Thanks.
Interesting would be a comparison of similar priced key actions to the VPC-1 action. From the top of my head the new Yamahas (CP4 and CLP 5xx-Series) and the Roland PHA 4 (RD-800, DP-90se, HP-506) and even Kawai's RH2 action (MP-7, CN-34).
The Kawai actions implement the same triple-sensor technology... the newer actions of say, the MP11, employ Kawai's GF (Grand Feel) which is basically the same as the RM3II but with the pivot point placed further back.
PianoManChuck I guess you meant the MP11 and intended to answer the Vari"s comment. The new (2014) MP7 has an RH2 action. All the Best, Lo Phi.
lophiomys The RH2 Action on the MP7, from what I read has more traditional keyboard keys (plastic) and a shorter hammer action mechanism. However, I read that you can actually adjust the key-strike location on the RH2 so you can have a softer 'feel' when playing organs and synths, and a heavier feel when playing piano, for instance.
How does the MP11 compare to the VPC1 on that second note or rapidly repeated second note??
Is the MP11 even better?? or is it nearly identical??
What sound source are you using for the Vpc1?
only on 5s or 560 too?
Thanks for showing the key "thump" (what I call it). I have a Yamaha S90 XS and sometimes the "thump" is louder than the note (when playing soft). The Kawai looks like a fantastic keyboard, but it is designed to imitate a real piano more that other keyboard platforms. I'm sure as the technology gets cheaper that more of the higher end keyboards will get the triple sensor. It's fascinating how far the technology of keyboards has come.
The Yamaha S90 XS is an awesome keyboard (but it weighs a lot)!! There's a lot of awesome 2-sensor boards - some of which "feel" better than some of the 3-sensor boards out there! Anytime something "feels" good, the more in control you can be! 3-sensor boards are starting to appear more and more (but still in the minority at this time).
Tell me about it. In a soft carrying case and with all of cords, foot switches and music I think it weighs nearly 65 pounds and I have to carry it down stairs at my house when to go to a gig!
I hear ya... major drag, but once you're "at" the gig and set up, there's nothing like it :)
PianoManChuck
I primarily use the M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 for live and home use. And I have trouble using it sometimes because I feel the action can't keep up with my playing. Do you know if the Pro 88 is dual or triple sensored? Will that be the reason for the response problem? Thanks!
*****
Your M-Audio keyboard is dual sensor and uses semi-weighted keys, not fully weighted keys. Not a serious controller/board for pianists... sorry :(
I have the px5s. The action is good for hitting some chords but if you want to play thrills or fast repeating notes, you will long for another brand such as Kawai or Yamaha. So the triple sensor action from Casio makes not much sense to me.
Infinite Response VAX 77 review ill be welcome.
the problem with casio privia and other cheaper keyboard, it's key are very light and don't move fastly, and don't come back easily to their initial position.