i assume the greater will isn't dead, but the shattering may sever greater will power over land between, the wifi router is broken the fingers cannot dm the greater will, what a sad state of affairs...
This has been pretty much my interpretation exactly, since encountering the Fingers in their disconnected wifi pose. That's why I'm my view of the lore Marika is actually the one influencing the Tarnished with the Guidance of Grace, and not the Greater Will itself.
@@aydenbonnet9630 first i also shared the same view as you, but now i kinda doubt that, remember if we managed to kill the grafted scion we fall because of that nascent butterfly, and nascent butterfly can be found through out many significant places same as miquella and trina lillies.. now the dlc post is assumed to be miquella riding torrent, i doubt marika care about us tarnished, this might sound a little bit farfetched, but hear me out, the round table hold isn't a real place and saint trina power is dream...
By Gwyn, his name was hidden right there all along! You just need to turn the W right side up: GReateR Mill! In all seriousness, I'm a sucker for metanarratives and breaking the fourth wall. So I would totally be happy if FromSoft ever decides to channel Pirandello in any future game!
One small detail I think is important. In the item descriptions for mohgwyn's sacred spear and the bloodboon incantation it mentions that you are physically piercing the body of the Formless Mother to use their abilities, which means the Formless Mother could be some kind of extra dimensional being that's in the same place as the lands between but on a higher plane of existence, so that could explain why Mohg is able to commune with his outer god instantly
Placidusax looks like he was trying to commune with the Greater Will as well with his two remaining heads. It could explain why he is locked in time as it apparently takes a very long time to do so.
I was kinda playing around with a theory that the Greater Will is either a collective consciousness or just a case of "only I can talk to the Greater Will, trust me bro it exists." So this video is pretty insightful, there's more thinking to be done.
If the Greater Will doesn't really do things, then the Two Fingers have their own agendas. Which makes the Two and Three Fingers the Elden Ring equivalent of Kaathe and Frampt. Makes sense.
The greater will seems to have very little direct involvement in the lands between. The only 'direct' actions it's taken are sending the Elden Stars to the lands between to become the Elden Ring, selecting Marika as the vessel for the Elden Ring and having the fingers and Elden Beast as it's vassals, and, presumably, banishing the Nox. Everything else done in it's name is carried out by one of it's vassals, which are distinct entities, namely, Marika's punishment is all but outright said to be carried out by the Elden Beast. As for why it didn't kill her, Marika is the vessel for the Elden Ring; in a sense she IS the Elden Ring, this is even expressed by her cracked body after shattering it. Destroying her probably means destroying the Elden Ring. The way I see it the Greater Will before the shattering was very hands off and seemingly only communicated to the lands between through the fingers, and after the shattering, it straight up abandoned the land entirely; this is stated right out in the opening. So the fingers aren't getting a response from the greater will anytime soon.
So the confirmed involvement of the Greater Will is even less than you mentioned! The Elden Stars description is hearsay and we don't know how/why Marika became the vessel of the Elden Ring. Presumably she was chosen by the Two Fingers but that would again be the GW's vassals acting. That is a good question about if the Elden Ring is destroyed when Marika is dead. Presumably yes for the Frenzied Flame ending, but in the Age of Stars, Ranni takes the order she envisions with her into space. So the ring might still be around. And there's also the Elden Ring we see in Maliketh's arena.
@@garrulousgoldmasknecroposting but, since both Marika and Ranni are/were empyrean I think it's possible that Ranni inherited the Elden Ring from Marika in some form during the Age of Stars ending and became the new god of the Lands Between, which in turn would explain Marika vanishing
It's interesting you brought her up because the Gloam Eyed Queen is the only one whose Empyrean status is called into question. ("It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.")
Another thing to note is Maliketh earned his name "Death of the Demi-Gods" before Marikas reign and while he was her shadow as an empyrean. Which means Maliketh killed demi gods before Marika ascended. A god ruled the lands over Marika, this is the only explanation as to how he had killed demi gods. The Gloam Eyed queens children were likely those demi gods and she was actually the ruler of the lands at the time, possible the missing god for Placidusax and the young girl statue in Faram with the three wolves is actually a young Gloam Eyed Queen as an Empyrean. Because what other god would those demi gods belong to.
You've made a point. I played part of this game with a friend who constantly refers to GW as a "creator god" or "outer god" sits atop the power hierarchy and I believe that’s not the case, simple, GW itself sounds like a propaganda term. ER’s theme is Radagon’s theme not EB’s theme, the golden order felt more like a cult to me if anything, and it makes sense that Marika would say Radagon is yet to become her, yet to become a god. People are overcomplicating the power of GW imao, and I don’t buy it whatever the GW is. Good job on challenging that. 🤗
Golden Order IS a cult, but that doesn't mean Greater Will is nonexistent, just that there's a difference between the two. Also doesn't the intro explicitly say Greater Will forsake Lands Between after the shattering?
@@kindlingking He never said GW is none existent, neither did I. Enia said GW didn't abandon the lands that’s why tarnished is guided by grace, makes it more suspicious, as Melina said grace is given by Marika. GW can be anything, a god, collective consciousness, concept like the primeval current, you name it. The golden order, we already know what it is, is not as intangible, and they have the very motivation to do whatever they want in the name of GW, that is the point imao.
This was an interesting video. I never really thought to hard on why the Greater Will is so distant vs "Outer Gods." It might be dead like you say or it might be a "Blind Idiot God" like Azathoth of HP Lovecraft. Azathoth is all powerful, all knowing, and if I remember right his dreams create the universe. But what Lovecraft tried to pitch as a being beyond our comprehension, my brain took to understand that it is a God-Ameba. Everything that happens be it good or ill is in their realm of their power but none of what happens is part of any plan of theirs. The God simply exists and everything is just a byproduct of its nature. So in this interpretation, yes from the people or whatever's view the Greater Will sent down the Elden star. Because it is something so grand, from their perspective it must be intentional. But what if the Greater Will just shuttered, shifted, or something and that sent the Elden Star down. Keeping in mind Azathoth technically created us means an Idiot God CAN make beings that think like us on accident. I'm not fully convinced of the "Idiot-God" Theory but just adding something to get folks thinking.
Azathoth being all powerful is actually something that was made up by later writers, Lovecraft exclusively wrote him as a monster who dwelt in the dreamlands in the center of the nuclear chaos, the true all-powerful deity is Yog Sothoth who is literally the supreme archetype of everything Yog-Sothoth knows the gate, he is the gate, he is the key and the gate keeper itself of all things
@@alchemicalalek7535 Who/when the text was written within that shared universe is irrelevant to the point. And Yog-Sothoth is a manifestation of Azathoth's imagination. In context of Elden Ring Azathoth is the Greater Will and Yog-Sothoth would be the Elden Beast. The Beast Knows the ring, is the ring, it is the key and gatekeeper of the Elden Ring. (I was ready for ya lol but thanks for giving me a reason to bring up that the Elden Beast is Yog lol.)
I love how, in a game series that’s already very tight on the given lore, there can be so much thats just lost or misunderstood due to improper translation.
I interpret Marika's imprisonment as actually the work of Radagon, not the Greater Will, so you might be able to scratch another action off the Greater Will's scoreboard.
Likewise! It feels like one of those classic murder mysteries: Marika is locked away inside the Erdtree, and Radagon has sealed the entrance off. It's elementary that Radagon is the most likely suspect.
This isn't really correct, the Two Fingers expressly state that "Marika's trespass demanded a heavy sentence." This means that the Greater Will itself imprisoned her, which is supported by the fact that the Elden Beast has a grab attack where you get crucified exactly like Marika More than anything, it is a work of the Elden Beast if not the Greater Will itself
Feels more like the Elden Beast may be the one imprisoning her, since the Beast is able to crucify you as an attack during the fight just as Marika is crucified.
@@alchemicalalek7535 It is the Elden Beast's power that is actually holding Marika but it is at Radagon's will. The Two Fingers don't actually know what they're talking about - that's why they lock up once you reach the Erdtree and it tells you to jog on. Because the Elden Beast uses Radagon's corpse as a weapon, it is easy to assume the Elden Beast is the entity pulling the strings but the more you analyse Radagon's personality the less likely that seems. The Elden Beast isn't the GOD SLAIN - because it isn't a God, it's the embodiment of Order and the Elden Ring itself, which you are taming; dominance over beasts is repeatedly shown to be the sign of the divine. The God you are slaying is the vessel of the Elden Ring, Radagon - whose pre-fight cutscene clearly shows is the one who actually houses the Elden Ring now, instead of Marika. He gives his body over to his version of Order in a last ditch effort to keep his Order as it is - and so we defeat him and the Beast in order to claim the Order for our own and change it as we see fit. This is all my interpretation at least.
I want to clarify that before you read this that I love your theory. Its very tragic and poetic in many ways that invite a new way of interpreting the game. The following are my thoughts but given that words can often come off more cold and mean then we want them to when writing them in text I wanted to clarify beforehand. Have you watched Tarnished Archeologist? He offers a very compelling idea that the Greater Will can only act through a vassal, specifically through woman capable of childbirth. If Marika, the Greater Will's chosen vassal has rebellee and broken its connection to the world then maybe it simply can't interact with it. Also, if the Greater Will was dead then why are Tarnished being given back grace? Is it part of Marika's plan? Seems a little conviluted when everyone is telling you the Greater Will was the one to give grace to the Tarnished. Its also a bit too coincidental that the two fingers connection to the Greater Will would be broken at the exact time the Tarnished reaches the Erdtree for it to be simply a leftover message that no longer matters. And why would Ranni even have a questline if her goal of severing the connection to the Greater Will was already accomplished? Whats more, Gold Mask along with other Tarnished seems to have been given a vision to reforge the Elden Ring by the Greater Will itself so it cannot be dead. I think whats gojng on is an allegory to the Abrahamic God as you've pointed out in one of your videos. In the Bible, after repeated covenants have been broken by the Israelites God abandons his people and lets them be conquered. Heis not heard from again in Jewish belief but will return with the promised Son of Man, but for now he remains silent for thousands of years. Given the Christian iconography present in this game its likely that they are going with the Christian fufillment of that prophecy where a man is raised from the dead to save the world from its sins. Sound familiar? You are a Tarnished whose grace has been restored and the various endings with the exception of Ranni's and Frenzied Flame are establishments of new covenants with the Greater Will. This explains each changing era of gods and lords in elden ring as covenants and helps fill in a lot of missing information. That is not to say the Greater Will is God from the Bible as its motivations seem more based around a need for order but still you get the idea. Honestly, I think your video of the Greater Will's connection to the Biblical God explains a lot of whats going on here with Ranni's ending being a rejection of the covenant. Still, interesting theory. We need more "outlandish" theories if we are ever going to solve this game.
Thank you for watching--and for leaving such a detailed comment! In the game, where does it say that the Greater Will specifically is the one offering grace? I may have missed something, but from what I've seen, we're told that grace is provided by the Erdtree or the Elden Ring itself (which is inside the Erdtree after all, so that could explain the conflation). One of my upcoming videos will be on the guidance of grace and how it explains Marika's plan, so stay tuned! So I don't think that the Two Fingers lost their connection with the Greater Will right when we come back; rather, as Gideon tells us, the Fingers have been broken for a while and they've been covering that fact up. And now that we've actually been to the Erdtree, but see that it's been sealed off, the Fingers know the ruse is up. (There could also be an element of slapstick comedy: The Fingers could be staying still in the hopes that we won't notice them.) Ranni never mentions the Greater Will--her whole quest is about escaping the control of the Two Fingers and forging a new order. The Fingers are usurpers in charge of an organized religion. So Ranni's desire to free herself from them doesn't really depend on the (non)-existence of the Greater Will. It's not a 1:1 comparison but I like to think of the Fingers as akin to the Grand Inquisitor in the Brothers Karamazov. That is a great question about how Goldmask received his revelation about the Mending Rune of Perfect Order and how he got his hands on it. What's also interesting is that in the 1.0 version, that rune is the only that makes the Elden Ring "whole once more." Definitely something to investigate though getting it from the Greater Will certainly would make sense. All that said, I really love your comparison with the Tarnished mending the Elden Ring being akin to fulfilling a new covenant with the Greater Will! Taking it one step further, you could even interpret the Goldmask ending as a type of New Jerusalem, which would be another piece of evidence that his ending is the best ending. (And all that fits very well with my previous video on how the Frenzied Flame is the only good ending for Gnostics, who would reject the Greater Will as a demiurge.) Personally, I love the fact that there are these drastically different interpretations of Elden Ring, but they're still cohesive and carry narrative and thematic weight. E.g., you can read Goldmask as both a Ubermensch AND as a John the Baptist figure, and both interpretations fit surprisingly well! The game is truly a masterwork.
@@garrulousgoldmask I couldn't agree more! This game, for all of its convoluted lore, is truly a masterpiece when it comes to crafting a world so open to possibilities. As for my rebuttal to your theory, your right in that the game never tells you if the grace comes from the Greater Will and Ranni does only ever mention the two fingers as her enemy. Theres also that wierd quote from Marika about how she would take away their grace and give it back. I think the biggest piece of evidence for the "it was all her plan" theory comes from the fact that stakes of Marika work for us despite the cycle of death and rebirth in the lands between being halted. That being said, there still are some things that prevent me from going completely on board with the theory, for one, if Gideon was right and Marika wants us to struggle for all eternity than why would her plan involve luring Tarnished to the Erdtree where they might decide to burn the Erdtree? Maybe she didn't expect a lowely Tarnished to manage going that far? The Two Fingers are super sketcky and so its believable they were just lying to us about the whole thing and the Greater Will really is gone in some way. As for the visions, there is an explaination for them if its not the Greater Will. They each have a connection to the stars, stars being the determiners of fate its possible they are leading Tarnished to the endings they want. The star The Dung Eater saw could easily be the bloodstar and maybe Goldmask's star is just the sun. I've had a theory that maybe the Greater Will is the sun and since its left thats why its so small in the sky but there isn't enough evidence for that and I don't know whether to believe it myself. In this scenario the covenant anaolgy fails but its possible we were looking too deeply into the symbology. I'm still of the belief that the Greater Will is present because the Flame of Frenzy seems too diametrically opposed to it for it to not even care but that could just be part of the tragedy. Right now the theory is too much of a "reach" for me but maybe we find more evidence later and you can change my mind but no pressure. Still a great theory that I haven't seen a lot of good evidence for until this video.
So I think that Marika is the one who is guiding us through grace, since as you mentioned, she robs Godfrey of his grace, only to give it back much later. And that would also explain all the weird directions grace sends you on the map. As for Gideon, I like the theory that he was looking into the will of Radagon, since by continuing to struggle, the Tarnished won't become Elden Lord and replace Radagon. I definitely like those ideas about the stars! The Greater Will being the sun (or at the very least, represented by it) would fit quite well since the rays of the Erdtree are compared to sunlight and there is also the mysterious Sunrealm Shield. Plus it's always sunny in Farum Azula! That's totally understandable! Order and Chaos are definitely a compelling duality. And from a strictly pragmatic view, I'm not sure if there really is that much difference between the Greater Will being dead, the Greater Will never existing, and a non-responsive Greater Will.
First of all, I really enjoy your video. I think you're the first one to do justice to how the Fingers react to the fact that the Erdtree is closed. I've never thought about the time for the message to "reach" the Greater Will. I've always thought that either the GW ghosted the Finger or that it was itself thinking really hard about what to do next, making the Fingers freeze while waiting for the answer. I was always of the opinion that the GW is very similar to the Outer Gods but, being in charge for so very long, its followers drank ther own kool-aid and believed he was a Father-of-all God. And of course, neither the GW nor the Fingers did anything to correct the mistake. I won't call it propaganda per se, but they sure influenced the whole culture of the Lands Between to go in that direction. It explained, for exemple, why every enemy of the Erdtree and the Golden Order wants to make a Lord + a consort structure. It is what they saw as the political and religious normalcy for centuries if not millenia. It is a social construct, not a cosmic force that push them to want this. And I think, for this very reason, that what the followers of the Golden Order say about the nature of the world, the Order (as a social or cosmic Order), the gods, etc. can't be taken at face value. They either lie (most likely the Fingers) or know no better. It is a point easily forgotten. After a all, a common theme in Dark Souls and Bloodborne is that the true nature of the social and cosmic orders is very actively hidden, we need to be more suspicious, to paraphrase Nietzsche. Anyway, I found your channel pretty much by chance and I hope to see your furture videos soon !
I just found this channel today while at work, and i gotta say man im loving the content. You approach the lore in a bit of a different way than some of the larger lore channels, and i think a lot of the ideas you put forward make a lot of sense. Keep it up
I always loved how the Elden Beast boss arena looks like the meeting place for countless Erdtrees, perhaps on different worlds, all sharing (or being) the Greater Will.
Thank you so much! I wasn't trying to reach a specific conclusion since so much of the lore behind the GW is deliberately ambiguous, but to get people thinking about it in a whole new light.
There are two possibilities: 1. The One Great's shattering refers to the creation of the universe. Therefore, the Greater Will is indirectly responsible for life existing. Life here is a byproduct. 2. The One Great refers to the Crucible. Here, life is a consciously created object by the Will through Elden Stars. In either case, the entire premise of this video depends on you ignoring one or the other. The Greater Will cannot possibly be described as weak; it is either directly or indirectly responsible for existence as we know it. More importantly,the Golden Order does not worship the Greater Will. The Golden Order is founded on the principle of Marika being the one true God. The Greater Will is an afterthought; it is not the interest of the Order. Moreover, Hyetta and the Three Fingers have every reason to downplay the Greater Will's role in existence. But they don't. As such, the premise that they are an untrustworthy source is faulty at best. The assumption it could've been Marika does not hold much weight; nowhere do we hear pf Godfrey fighting Nox. The Nox were underground by the time the Carians were founded, most likely. Marika was trapped inside the Erdtree and tortured without reprieve. Death is too merciful a punishment when it comes to the Will. She is kept alive because her Shattering the Elden Ring means shattering herself. Her dying without a successor would mean no vessel for the Elden Ring, and possibly the complete breakdown of the world's laws, even beyond how they are now. Either the Elden Beast wanted the world to keep going, or the Greater Will wanted it to keep going. Either way, Marika was punished. There are three Empyreans. All of them are candidates for succession. If you think the Will shouldve just picked one up and gsve them the Ring,then you are thinking in terribly simple terms. They have to fight or choose whoever is going to recieve the Ring. Godhood is not given on a silver platter. Otherwise, why did Marika have to fight the Gloam Eyed Queen? The opening cutscene told you what happened. The Greater Will abandoned the world in the Shattering, and only it's vassals are interested in convincing you it didn't. Whether it renews it's interest in this plane or not is not known to us, but by all accounts, it is content to let Marika, and the Lands Between, rot for eternity.
Nokron or Nokstella got literally banished...sunk underground. This accounts for why there is a huge chasm in Leyndell behind the front gate. It also lines up underneath the map. The buildings also have the same sculptures and styles of Leyndell. Also just wanted to throw this out there because I was today years old when i realized that Farum A was tossing chunks of itself all over the world. That's why, particularly Limgrave is litered with these ancient ruins and why they are casually strewn about. At some point it was literally raining coliseum sized fragments lol
One thing I've noticed in the lore is that the Greater Will is both rarely mentioned by characters and is also never worshipped by anyone. Even those who follow The Golden Order only worship Marika as the one true god. The Two Fingers seem to be the only ones who follow the GW or even mention it at all and even then it's implied that they haven't communicated with the GW in a very long time.
I always thought they said that they were pushed underground for creating a weapon that could kill a god, and bring a new age about, the finger slayer blade
Or perhaps the Greater Will is not dead, but has simply... Left. I wonder which would be worse... Your god dying, or simply leaving you and your world behind. The first one is devastating, but it has closure. The second could lead one to endless futile hope, to pray for thousands, even tens of thousands of moons for an answer that will never come... because god doesn't care about you anymore.
I think the greater will plants his ring and fingers with instructions and moves on, its probably seeded many universes and is LITERALLY light years away by now.
Since the greater will is just the will of life in the lands between there is no getting rid of it. No matter what order the ring is configured the greater will is what configures it. Say if a different outer god were to take control. It would be still under the rule of the greater will. Also good to note that the outer good ar just concepts manifested
I've been wondering something similar, That some time after Marika decided that _"Dying is cringe"_ and removed the rune of death, then later fractured the whole thing, The Will lost something it needed to influence The Lands Between so it simply just lost interest and left; Or maybe the Frenzy is correct, The One Great made a mistake that needs to be amended (or burned to nothingness) so that it may start anew. I recommend checking out 'The Tarnished Archaeologist' series on The Great Tree, The Crucible, and The Erdtree, He has a pretty good theory on the sickles of the world.
The people never understood the great one,they tried to manipulate the ring.All the factions have been destroyed by punishments we can see that.The greater will long has been against the demigods.Even the dragons did something wrong as well and were punished.All of them have caused chaos and deserved it from what I have seen.They picked out so many pieces of the ring it is broken.The ring is at the mercy not the greater will,because it is the greater will is guiding us to be elden lord and has done it like it has done many times.Greater will no longer talks to the fingers it has other things to worry about.It has made us immortal I call that powerfull to have control over actual life and death.We do not come back as a ghost we get our flesh back with our equipment.We are missing this because we are playing a game.Makes us remember how in real life you die and do not come back it is game over.It is the greater will who guides us and it lives in all life like the force.
@@meezy5671 I don't know HOW they did, but it's heavily implied throughout all the new lore. Metyr is broken, the two fingers can't contact the Greater Will, & it's likely the abandonment of the Golden Order might've actually lead to the Shattering as well. It is fully possible that the timeline of events may have transpired in a very different order to what was originally thought.
@@meezy5671 Well.. that's Marika's will, not neccesarily the Greater Will's. After all, she's supposed to be an envoy, but there are hints to it being her guiding you; considering that her mother is Marika, and she is in fact Messmer's sister, she is also being guided toward the tree for her purpose. Marika is imprisoned; just as with Miquella, Godhood is said to be a prison; it makes sense she'd desire the end.
@@xoldrakesanguine2009 no brother, it’s the greater will that guides us to restore order into a land that is fractured. Imo the greater will is what modern folks would call a “monotheistic god”. There’s a reason that the answer to it is not flat out given in the game and that we have to theorize. It’s just like life! You must have faith.
With dlc out and mother of fingers there... We know that she tried to communicate with the Greater Will. But she couldn't. It all just points that it isn't dead, but rather ignoring us. Like any Cosmic Entity, it might have simply lost interest in the world of Lands Between and its people.
The one great(greater will original form) casted out all the flames of calamity In the first shattering in order to try to create the perfect world. This was a mistake and its other pieces became the outer gods stars. The greater will went dormant and became the sun
As far as the defeat of the Nox and their exile underground, I feel like the Nox were the actual enemy in the First Liurnian War, not Caria or Raya Lucaria. It never made sense to me how there were two wars between Liurnia and the Erdtree. There are enough links between Liurnia and the Nox, like puppetry, some use of silver, architecture, those large sentient wrecking balls, and a culture built around reverence of the moon and stars.
I don't think the Greater Will can possibly be dead because, aside from the fact that no such a thing is ever mentioned even tangentially in the game, I don't think something like the Greater Will can even die at all. The idea doesn't even mean anything. I think there are a few things to think about. First of all, we know that the Crucible is the origin of all life, and that the Crucible is also the Erdtree at a primordial stage of its evolution, that the Crucible was always marked by a golden tint of red, that Placidusax uses golden fire and has remains of golden scales that likely once were the entirety of his skin, and finally that the Erdtree is intimately linked to the Elden Ring/Elden Beast as changing stuff with the Elden Ring immediately leads to changes in the Erdtree. With the Shattering, the Erdtree felt its end coming and started releasing Golden Seeds, and I think the transition from Crucible to modern Erdtree was sparked by Marika's removal of the Rune of Death, since the timeline converges at that moment in time. Now, if the Crucible/Erdtree works according to the Elden Ring's runic order, and all life originates from the Crucible, how could there be Nox on Earth when the Elden Ring crashed on Earth? There could be no life, not even ancient dragons, since all that stuff comes from the Crucible, that is, from the Elden Ring and the divine power of the Greater Will that created life on Earth. First the Greater Will created life and order through the Elden Ring and its associated Crucible/Erdtree, then the Dragons ruled on the primordial Golden Order of the age of the Crucible, then the Greater Will must have decided to switch the ownership of the world from dragons to mankind, and removed the Elden Ring from Placidusax's companion and gave it to Marika. Finally during Marika's reign she completed the transformation of Crucible into modern Erdtree likely by removing the Rune of Death, as the fundamental changes in how death and life operate likely also changed how the Erdtree sustained life, and things like Omen became a reviled symbol of surpassed beliefs and barbarism compared to the new Golden Order as envisioned by Marika. Clearly both the Greater Will and the Elden Beast leave a lot of discretion to their subordinates, because they let her do all this freely. I feel like Marika wasn't killed because you can't get rid of your Elden Ring container without having a new one immediately on hand, and there weren't any acceptable options at the time. Malenia was afflicted by Rot, Miquella was afflicted by his inability to grow, and Ranni had successfully got rid of its Empyrean flesh, and anyway the Lands Between were engulfed in war and since neither the Greater Will nor the Elden Beast ever seem to do anything directly but leave stuff to their vassal Fingers the situation couldn't be resolved. We also know that the Greater Will, or maybe the Fingers, ultimately lost faith in the Demigods and wanted a Tarnished to rule, but it might be that at this point the Greater Will had already abandoned the Lands Between to themselves entirely as a failed project, and only the abandoned Fingers still try to keep their thing going, hoping their god will forgive them like Placidusax did in the past, also with no luck. As for how the Formless Mother can be contacted seemingly immediately, I think this might be one of those little translation issues that ended up creating established narratives in the Elden Ring community that not necessarily hold truth. It is commonly believed that the Greater Will is an Outer God, like others. What if this isn't true? What if the Greater Will is indeed a superior cosmic entity that rules over the universe, and the Outer Gods are outsider gods that exist as Kami, outside of the established order of the Golden Order? That's what "Outer" might stand for, and thus the Formless Mother would simply be a powerful spirit that exists on Elden Ring's Earth, and her followers can gain her power, but as a minor god she's liable to be imprisoned (like the God of Rot imprisoned by Malenia's sword master) or almost destroyed (like the god of the giants). Her power can be more easily summoned, but it's also a far lesser being compared to the Greater Will's cosmic power of creation and order. Indeed, some Outer Gods directly oppose the Golden Order while others seem to want to hijack the Elden Ring by placing their own empyrean and Elden Lord as rulers, like Mohg and the Formless Mother seem to want, but even then they'd still rule under a system fundamentally governed by the Greater Will's power, who's apparently pretty okay with leaving a lot of freedom to its subjects as long as they don't do things as stupendously stupid such as trying to break the Ring.
How can a sentient concept be dead I think it's like the most ancient Eldritch Abominations of Lovecraft In that you can't destroy a living fundamental law a pillar of reality/existence/the universe it's like gravity.
Perhaps not dead, or gone, or even unable. The greater will seems to be, above anything else, manipulative and it seems to do so in the subtle ways. Every ending being attached to it in some way re-creating order it deigned exist (cept good ole Shabriri). You describe it seemingly as a weaker force, and maybe it doesn't need to be strong. Machiavellian villains or powers / whatever can be as bad or worse than brute force depending on setting and parameters. What if its really strong, but not compared to Marika / Radagon or even Radahn, what if it could easily be bested by a single man, but not be outsmarted, or outmaneuvered.
The Greater Will can only work through its agents, the Elden Beast, the two fingers, and the finger readers. These kinds of beings are not good at roaming the land to find Empyrian replacements, which is why there are Gods and Champions that are more active in the land. Marika wasn't killed because she still embodies the Elden Ring, and a great person needs to be found that can take up the burden and there are rules for that. Namely 'born of a single god', and Marika is the only fertile god on the land capable of self-reproducing. So she just can't easily be killed off. That's why the Greater Will is looking for a new champion to restore Marika instead of looking for a new empyrian. Ranni has cut herself off, and Miquella and Millenia broke from the Golden Order so there are no empyrians left to take up the Elden Ring. Great video, love your script and double thanks for providing the item descriptions!
Thanks for watching! So what's the item or dialogue that says how the Greater Will works? I tried to be thorough in the video and I really hope I didn't miss anything! And that's a really interesting point you bring up about Marika self-reproducing.
@@garrulousgoldmask It is from the finger reader dialogue after you burn the erd tree and are told to wait a few thousand years for the Greater Will to get in touch
The Greater Will is just god and a bunch of people are claiming to see something that others can't see. It's kind of like main stream christianity. People claim to hear the voice of god but they cannot prove it but we also can't prove that they didn't. It's a long game of telephone in the Land's Between.
The crucible incantations say all life was once blended together in it all life and it says it is an ancient erdtree incantation elden stars says it is the oldest that derives from the erdtree even older than the crucible incantations meaning the elden stars event predates the crucible and thus all life the erdtree is the result of marika and it goes through many stages of growth and evolution like any tree
Also the greater will was never involved it being dead is quite a presumption also the greater will doesn’t seem like an outer god at all an outer god represents a particular concept and spreads an affliction without exception the outer god of the death birds represents death yet there is a rune of death in the elden literally embodying death and the rune of rebirth what the scarlet rot supposedly is the greater will doesn’t embody anything as far as we know what we know is he shattered the one great and created disparity and thus the world we see and sent the elden ring and the Elden ring became the seed bed of all life in the lands between the outer gods as they are called seem like kami to me deities that embody certain forces of nature and act upon the world through that force because without disparity which the greater will predates all the concepts that outer gods embody can’t exist without disparity you can’t have death blood madness or rot but what we do know is that the greater will acts through vassals and only directly intervenes when things are very very very dire he directly intervenes with us the tarnished we become true immortals unable to die a power everyone else lacks we get instantly reformed after death not even maliketh can kill us even though he has destined death our power defies a piece of the elden ring and thus comes from something greater he directly intervenes with marika and he imprisonment the reason he can’t simply remove the elden ring from marika is because the elden ring and marika are one and the same when it get shattered so does marika
Lastly it commands the largest power in the universe the elden ring itself changing the ring changes all of reality death life order stars all of it is connected to this ring and it is under the greater wills command
Hmm. I don’t think we need posit that the Greater Will is deceased in order to explain its seeming lack of activity or direct influence. Instead, we should consider the implications that it simply was never “living” in the sense that a mortal, or even a mortal-turned-god, is a living thing. It seems much more like an abstract cosmic force embodying order than a living creature to me. Bernahl’s boasting aside, I don’t think it has a physical form, and might not even have a sentient mind. It’s hard to say one way or the other if it is one of the Outer Gods, but it does share with them one important characteristic - it cannot directly affect the world, and needs to do so by means of vassals and proxies. That’s why it didn’t take direct action even back in ancient times when the Fingers had more direct communication with it, only sending the Elden Beast/Ring as a means through which it can spread Order. So if it is alive (or well, “still existent” may be a better term here), what precisely caused the Fingers to “lose their purpose”, and why does it take them so long to speak to it? That I’m not quite sure. The item description on Lord’s Divine Fortification has puzzled me since the game came out, and I can’t really give you a good alternate explanation. One thing I can say, however, is that one individual does seem to be capable of communicating with the Greater Will directly - Goldmask. The way his meditations are presented imply he is acting as a sort of “Human Two Fingers” in that he remains silent and communicates entirely by moving two of his fingers in a way akin to the aforementioned creatures, getting a direct line to the Greater Will and trying to discern its divine plan, which leads him to rediscover the Mending Rune of Perfect Order. But if he can reach the Greater Will, then what is wrong with the Fingers? Perhaps that’s the real question we need to answer.
I am of the belief that in the lands between there are three gods the greater will, the moon, and the frenzied flame, all others are outer gods who were let in by the numens, the three gods were possibly at one point in a fragile peace with each other, possibly with humanity being their main focus and only real thing keeping them from fighting each other but then the numans came along and with them multiple outers gods who caused this fragile peace to break down and now we get the mess left behind
Two fingers are definetely lying about it taking thousands of years to communicate. There is no way an entire empire could be built around greater will with that kind of communication delay. What if two fingers just made the whole thing up? There is no greater will, two fingers are really powerful manipulators, and most of the heavy lifting is actually done by power of erdtree that is just enhanced version of crucible. Wouldnt be first time either. Miayazaki loves using enigmatic NPCs with questionable motives and origins in his games. Frampt in DS1 quite literally made up the whole legend about undead and how they need to become lords of fire.
I think Marika was one of the eternals of nokron, we know that the nokrons worshiped the eternals and that the nokrons are descendants of the numen this would explain why marika is associated with the black nife assasins Marikas action were what got nokron banished she killed on of her fellow eternals to create the finger slayer blade and used it to upend the current crucible (dragon) order and become a god for a more puritan greater will based order without the influences of lesser gods such as the fell god, god of rot, and the formless mother, The greater will used to allow these outer gods influence on the world but marikas actions made the greater will take a more hands on approach
I believe the player is the personification of the greater will not radegon and marika or the elden beast which is cut off from the greater will as the player has the greatest impact on the events in the game an erdleaf falls on a random body (the player) that revived then proceeded to do things that the body/soul before the player had taken control would not and could not have done. At the very least the greater will has imbued "the flame of ambition" to the player character.
@garrulousgoldmask had some things I wanted to share with you ER wise but felt it might be too involved for TH-cam. Figured I'd ask and see ^_^ BTW, referencing a conversation we had a while back, if we're going by naming conventions being familial links, I would offer that Selen, Azur, and Lussat are related, as all of their names refer to a mineral~ Lussatite is specifically very interesting in this bunch. It comes from a very distinct region of France where an ancient Temple of Mercury was errected that had both Celtic and Roman architecture for prayer rooms, perhaps similar to how the Church of Vows and Celes Manus have Noxian and Lleyndell architecture. The mineral itself also has some interesting fossilized helix patterns, which look veryyyyy reminiscent of Spirit Caller Snails. The whole area is dominated by a large lake feature as well~ Could just be confirmation bias, but it is interesting at the very least. But yeah, considering their common interests and similar names, I would wager that the Primeval Sorcerers are related, rather than Selen being related to Renalla. Of course, they could all be related to each other, idfk.
I appreciate the ask--feel free to shoot me a DM on reddit or to my gmail! That is a terrific find--thank you! It is so uncanny how much the Lussatite look like snails. And in the Sellia Hideaway where Lusat is locked up, we can find all kinds of crystal snails as well as the Putrid Crystalian trio. And snails (both in our world and in the Lands Between) have been associated with resurrection, not unlike the primal glintstones. There definitely is some kind of closer connections going on with those three! Azur was Sellen's teacher and Azur and Lusat were founding glintstone sorcerers. And the sigil used for the Night sorceries has two crossed staves, which to me look awfully similar to Azur and Lusat's staves. So I think it's more than likely that Azur and Lusat were brothers/partners/BFFs at some point, though I'm still on the fence as to how Sellen fits in with those two. In any case, thank you so much for sharing!!
I wonder if the Golden Order exagerrated the attributes and domains of the Greater Will to make it look more powerful than it really is. You want to tell me that in this universe where there are multiple powerful entities that one of them is the greatest of all? Sounds suspicious to me. It makes me think which attributes of Greater Will are true and which were added up by the golden oder. It's like in real life where a deities attributes change and develop over time as the culture it's worshipping evolves or how different cultures who worship the same entity emphasize different attributes of the same deity.
Seem like chinese mythology. The first and strongest god born from chaos. He split chaos to light and dark, but after that he die too. His body become world for creatures live
I don't think it's dead, but simply fucked off. Who knows how many worlds it has aside from this one? Might simply be that the lands between us just it's side chick and it only checks in once every ten thousand years or so.
The greater will is not an outer god. It’s the will of the lands between. Intelligence was gifted to the beast men which led to manifestation. The collective unconscious of the people of the lands between is the greater will. Interesting saying into dead. Because the will of the land is shattered
@@garrulousgoldmask Yah... I think being such a supreme being had other places to domain and said f*ck it once the Eternal Queen broke the comand in a tantrum. Maybe that's why Goldmask discovered the rune by stablishing contact with the Greater Will using the Two Fingers method to communicate. Just that the Two Fingers are tarnished (thats why they get old and can't make contact) like fallen angels for acting by their own interest while Goldmask recieved grace once again so can see the Erdtree and communicate like he was an actual Two Fingers.
@@garrulousgoldmask another pseudo clue of this is that he referenced a "Golden Halo" which is bith the shape of the rune he discovered and a sign the Elden Beast makes when it makes it's first explosive attack while rising to the sky
Oh, that's a great theory! I really like how seamless that fits in. That could also explain how Goldmask was able to discover his mending rune--it could have been hidden or lost and no one else had the ability to ask the Greater Will for directions. And Goldmask, ever the Chad, does have his own Finger Maiden in Corhyn (which is a masculinized version of the Greek word for...maiden).
Maybe this supposed death (or incapacitation) could be explained with the concept of the Holy Trinity. Jesus is not just portrayed as the Son of God, but as the very thing that holds the universe together: The *Logos* This a philosophical concept created by Heraclitus, and used by Apostle John, which is basically the set of rules that govern all events in the universe, the *cosmic law* . You see what else fits this description? The Elden Ring. With this, i think you're already seeing where i'm going: (YWHW/The Greater Will) sends the living incarnation of the concept of order: (Jesus/Elden Beast) to earth. And they end up being killed by men. The thing is, continuing this comparison, Jesus is not just a separarate entity from God, but he says that he is One with the Father. "In him dwells the exact expression of his being." As Apostle Paul puts. If we apply this same concept to Elden Ring, this could mean that shattering the Elden Beast would have some effect on the Greater Will itself, because the Beast is not just a vassal, but also part of the GW's being. That's specially interesting when you consider that Jesus also behaves like that: as an obedient vassal, but also as God incarnate.
That's an interesting interpretation! I really like that comparison between the Elden Stars and Logos. And the Two Fingers talisman does say that the Fingers taught the Tarnished the words of their faith, which fits! Though I wonder Marika and the Shattering of the Elden Ring would fit in this framework.
@@garrulousgoldmask She would probably be the Holy Spirit. She's the one who channels the power of the other two and actually uses it. She's the one who extended the guidance of Grace to the Tarnished. The Holy Spirit has a similar funcion in Christianity: It's through him that God's power is manifested, imparting God's "guidance* and *power.* He's basically God's mean of action and communication, being also considered God. Just like Marika, the Elden Beast and the Greater Will are considered gods.
You have not properly understood the nature of the Greater Will, the greater will is beyond life and death, it fractured the One Great then came fractures(death, separation of being), births, souls. Before the occurrence of life and death, the Greater Will is, so the Greater Will cannot die and everything that happens, happens in accordance with its will, regardless of what that is. The order Marika brought was not the order the Greater Will desired so Marika breaks the elden ring so that new order can come about and even after you choose the Chaos ending, it is still in accordance with its will. Destroy everything and then the Greater Will can begin creating anew. Everything that happens in Elden Ring, happens because the Greater Will has allowed it to occur.
No... Things can definitely get out of Greater Will's hand, even in the intro it said so: "A war leading to abandonment by the Greater Will.", while I do believe that quote was meant for Greater Will abandoned the Demi God as the quote before that was "A war from which no lord arose." and the fact that Lost Grace has returned to the tarnished. And the Frenzied Flame said "the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake. And so, what was borrowed must be returned." I believe the "mistake" here was awareness itself, which is why everyone is absorbed by the "flame of ambition" once they get their hands on the great runes. Also "fractures, and births, and souls." Were the creations of the One Great, not because the Greater Will deviate itself from the One Great.
@@hainguyn948 The mistake was fracturing the One Great and creating everything, the frenzied flame sees this as a mistake of the Greater Will which is why it seeks to rectify it by burning everything with the chaos flame and returning it to the One Great.
Elden RIng is like a bad translation of the entire history of Christianity was sent to the Japanese to inspire them in making a game. Like Miyazaki likes his lore. One could theorize God dead like Nietzsche proclaimed and the priests continued the worship for their own gains or even more sinister like the incarnate Christ was killed two thousand years ago and the apostles made a cult around it. Could be similar with the GW. We'll probably won't find its corpse for proof.
i just realized enya says it will take eons before the greater will speaks again....shadow of the erdtree is speculated to possibly take place in the future ala ringed city dlc. What if the reason we go into the future is to hear this final instruction from the greater will? the ending is ours to choose because the greater will doesnt give us specific instructions but what if once we get the dlc we get to see what the greater will actually wants from us?
and maybe the deathroot strangling the tree is simply the result of further eons of decay without a new order, like how the ringed city ending is the future of thousands and thousands of years of letting the fire fade.
The question then would be how do we access It? when told how long communing with the GW Would take, do we get the option to Just sit there? Either way definitely an interesting idea, assuming the Fingers are actually truthfull about what they do and aren't actually useless, or even traitors to the Greater Will.
I honestly, for me isn't hard to suscribe to this theory primary because I like to think that Marika just invented with the greater will for her own agenda and all the stuff related to it is bullshit that the she or the GO make up
Stopped the video at 6.08, cool video but it's just that the greater will is canonically (Specified in both comics and the official books) the creator of the er universe and its concepts. Marika was not killed becase the greater will decided to punish her "As the two finger stated". The greater will is the life force of the entire universe basically as you can see what happened to even Marika the instant she shattered the Elden RIng with a "regular" hammer which is her hammer.
Ah, it's a shame you stopped! So what are the comics and the official books you mentioned? I know there's a manga but that's deliberately tongue-in-check (the very first issue is called You Thought This Would Be Serious?) so I don't think we can draw any real lore conclusions from that. And I know there are art books but as far as I'm aware they just have the concept art for the game. In any case, even if the Greater Will is the creator of the whole universe (which I do mention as a possibility), it has had a very minimal presence and there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests it's no longer alive. I also think it's very telling that the Fingers didn't try to (or maybe more accurately, couldn't) replace Marika as Empyrean.
I think Marika was one of the eternals of nokron, we know that the nokrons worshiped the eternals and that the nokrons are descendants of the numen this would explain why marika is associated with the black nife assasins Marikas action were what got nokron banished she killed on of her fellow eternals to create the finger slayer blade and used it to upend the current crucible (dragon) order and become a god for a more puritan greater will based order without the influences of lesser gods such as the fell god, god of rot, and the formless mother, The greater will used to allow these outer gods influence on the world but marikas actions made the greater will take a more hands on approach
i assume the greater will isn't dead, but the shattering may sever greater will power over land between, the wifi router is broken the fingers cannot dm the greater will, what a sad state of affairs...
The DLC will reveal that the Greater Will has been trying to get in touch about Torrent's expired warranty.
@@garrulousgoldmask lol maybe upgrade the spectral rider license so we could do triple jump like the ancestral spirit
This has been pretty much my interpretation exactly, since encountering the Fingers in their disconnected wifi pose. That's why I'm my view of the lore Marika is actually the one influencing the Tarnished with the Guidance of Grace, and not the Greater Will itself.
@@aydenbonnet9630 first i also shared the same view as you, but now i kinda doubt that, remember if we managed to kill the grafted scion we fall because of that nascent butterfly, and nascent butterfly can be found through out many significant places same as miquella and trina lillies.. now the dlc post is assumed to be miquella riding torrent, i doubt marika care about us tarnished, this might sound a little bit farfetched, but hear me out, the round table hold isn't a real place and saint trina power is dream...
@@necroviveI see where you're going with this and it's making sense.
The greater will is GRRM, typing away with his two fingers.
By Gwyn, his name was hidden right there all along! You just need to turn the W right side up: GReateR Mill!
In all seriousness, I'm a sucker for metanarratives and breaking the fourth wall. So I would totally be happy if FromSoft ever decides to channel Pirandello in any future game!
Hahaha that’s brilliant
Visiting this video after the DLC, just gotta say you nailed it on saying the fingers were cut off from the Greater Will
crazy how on point you were about the two fingers being a fraud
One small detail I think is important. In the item descriptions for mohgwyn's sacred spear and the bloodboon incantation it mentions that you are physically piercing the body of the Formless Mother to use their abilities, which means the Formless Mother could be some kind of extra dimensional being that's in the same place as the lands between but on a higher plane of existence, so that could explain why Mohg is able to commune with his outer god instantly
Placidusax looks like he was trying to commune with the Greater Will as well with his two remaining heads. It could explain why he is locked in time as it apparently takes a very long time to do so.
He is trying to contact the one great, the God that predates the greater will
@@HC-gm4fono
I was kinda playing around with a theory that the Greater Will is either a collective consciousness or just a case of "only I can talk to the Greater Will, trust me bro it exists." So this video is pretty insightful, there's more thinking to be done.
If the Greater Will doesn't really do things, then the Two Fingers have their own agendas.
Which makes the Two and Three Fingers the Elden Ring equivalent of Kaathe and Frampt.
Makes sense.
The greater will seems to have very little direct involvement in the lands between. The only 'direct' actions it's taken are sending the Elden Stars to the lands between to become the Elden Ring, selecting Marika as the vessel for the Elden Ring and having the fingers and Elden Beast as it's vassals, and, presumably, banishing the Nox. Everything else done in it's name is carried out by one of it's vassals, which are distinct entities, namely, Marika's punishment is all but outright said to be carried out by the Elden Beast. As for why it didn't kill her, Marika is the vessel for the Elden Ring; in a sense she IS the Elden Ring, this is even expressed by her cracked body after shattering it. Destroying her probably means destroying the Elden Ring.
The way I see it the Greater Will before the shattering was very hands off and seemingly only communicated to the lands between through the fingers, and after the shattering, it straight up abandoned the land entirely; this is stated right out in the opening. So the fingers aren't getting a response from the greater will anytime soon.
So the confirmed involvement of the Greater Will is even less than you mentioned! The Elden Stars description is hearsay and we don't know how/why Marika became the vessel of the Elden Ring. Presumably she was chosen by the Two Fingers but that would again be the GW's vassals acting.
That is a good question about if the Elden Ring is destroyed when Marika is dead. Presumably yes for the Frenzied Flame ending, but in the Age of Stars, Ranni takes the order she envisions with her into space. So the ring might still be around. And there's also the Elden Ring we see in Maliketh's arena.
@@garrulousgoldmasknecroposting but, since both Marika and Ranni are/were empyrean I think it's possible that Ranni inherited the Elden Ring from Marika in some form during the Age of Stars ending and became the new god of the Lands Between, which in turn would explain Marika vanishing
Worth noting, the Gloam Eyed Queen was also an Empyrean, as stated in the Black Flame Ritual incantation description
It's interesting you brought her up because the Gloam Eyed Queen is the only one whose Empyrean status is called into question. ("It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.")
@@garrulousgoldmaskMany things are stated as hear say in the Japanese text so a cautious approach on their voracity is indeed good to have
Another thing to note is Maliketh earned his name "Death of the Demi-Gods" before Marikas reign and while he was her shadow as an empyrean. Which means Maliketh killed demi gods before Marika ascended. A god ruled the lands over Marika, this is the only explanation as to how he had killed demi gods.
The Gloam Eyed queens children were likely those demi gods and she was actually the ruler of the lands at the time, possible the missing god for Placidusax and the young girl statue in Faram with the three wolves is actually a young Gloam Eyed Queen as an Empyrean.
Because what other god would those demi gods belong to.
@@garethlawton5278And there were likely many other gods and demigods around as well, since the Godskins had to get their name somehow...
You've made a point. I played part of this game with a friend who constantly refers to GW as a "creator god" or "outer god" sits atop the power hierarchy and I believe that’s not the case, simple, GW itself sounds like a propaganda term. ER’s theme is Radagon’s theme not EB’s theme, the golden order felt more like a cult to me if anything, and it makes sense that Marika would say Radagon is yet to become her, yet to become a god. People are overcomplicating the power of GW imao, and I don’t buy it whatever the GW is. Good job on challenging that. 🤗
Thank you! And those are great points about the theme and Marika's dialogue.
Golden Order IS a cult, but that doesn't mean Greater Will is nonexistent, just that there's a difference between the two. Also doesn't the intro explicitly say Greater Will forsake Lands Between after the shattering?
@@kindlingking He never said GW is none existent, neither did I. Enia said GW didn't abandon the lands that’s why tarnished is guided by grace, makes it more suspicious, as Melina said grace is given by Marika. GW can be anything, a god, collective consciousness, concept like the primeval current, you name it. The golden order, we already know what it is, is not as intangible, and they have the very motivation to do whatever they want in the name of GW, that is the point imao.
This was an interesting video. I never really thought to hard on why the Greater Will is so distant vs "Outer Gods." It might be dead like you say or it might be a "Blind Idiot God" like Azathoth of HP Lovecraft. Azathoth is all powerful, all knowing, and if I remember right his dreams create the universe. But what Lovecraft tried to pitch as a being beyond our comprehension, my brain took to understand that it is a God-Ameba. Everything that happens be it good or ill is in their realm of their power but none of what happens is part of any plan of theirs. The God simply exists and everything is just a byproduct of its nature.
So in this interpretation, yes from the people or whatever's view the Greater Will sent down the Elden star. Because it is something so grand, from their perspective it must be intentional. But what if the Greater Will just shuttered, shifted, or something and that sent the Elden Star down. Keeping in mind Azathoth technically created us means an Idiot God CAN make beings that think like us on accident. I'm not fully convinced of the "Idiot-God" Theory but just adding something to get folks thinking.
Thanks! And the idea of the Greater Will being a blind idiot god is definitely thought-provoking.
Azathoth being all powerful is actually something that was made up by later writers, Lovecraft exclusively wrote him as a monster who dwelt in the dreamlands in the center of the nuclear chaos, the true all-powerful deity is Yog Sothoth who is literally the supreme archetype of everything
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate, he is the gate, he is the key and the gate keeper itself of all things
@@alchemicalalek7535 Who/when the text was written within that shared universe is irrelevant to the point. And Yog-Sothoth is a manifestation of Azathoth's imagination.
In context of Elden Ring Azathoth is the Greater Will and Yog-Sothoth would be the Elden Beast. The Beast Knows the ring, is the ring, it is the key and gatekeeper of the Elden Ring.
(I was ready for ya lol but thanks for giving me a reason to bring up that the Elden Beast is Yog lol.)
@@Writh811 Jesus, I think I just witnessed an online parry.
@@jimijenkins2548 INHUMAN REACTIONS
I love how, in a game series that’s already very tight on the given lore, there can be so much thats just lost or misunderstood due to improper translation.
I interpret Marika's imprisonment as actually the work of Radagon, not the Greater Will, so you might be able to scratch another action off the Greater Will's scoreboard.
Likewise! It feels like one of those classic murder mysteries: Marika is locked away inside the Erdtree, and Radagon has sealed the entrance off.
It's elementary that Radagon is the most likely suspect.
This isn't really correct, the Two Fingers expressly state that "Marika's trespass demanded a heavy sentence." This means that the Greater Will itself imprisoned her, which is supported by the fact that the Elden Beast has a grab attack where you get crucified exactly like Marika
More than anything, it is a work of the Elden Beast if not the Greater Will itself
Feels more like the Elden Beast may be the one imprisoning her, since the Beast is able to crucify you as an attack during the fight just as Marika is crucified.
@@soarel325 This I agree with
@@alchemicalalek7535 It is the Elden Beast's power that is actually holding Marika but it is at Radagon's will. The Two Fingers don't actually know what they're talking about - that's why they lock up once you reach the Erdtree and it tells you to jog on.
Because the Elden Beast uses Radagon's corpse as a weapon, it is easy to assume the Elden Beast is the entity pulling the strings but the more you analyse Radagon's personality the less likely that seems. The Elden Beast isn't the GOD SLAIN - because it isn't a God, it's the embodiment of Order and the Elden Ring itself, which you are taming; dominance over beasts is repeatedly shown to be the sign of the divine. The God you are slaying is the vessel of the Elden Ring, Radagon - whose pre-fight cutscene clearly shows is the one who actually houses the Elden Ring now, instead of Marika. He gives his body over to his version of Order in a last ditch effort to keep his Order as it is - and so we defeat him and the Beast in order to claim the Order for our own and change it as we see fit.
This is all my interpretation at least.
I want to clarify that before you read this that I love your theory. Its very tragic and poetic in many ways that invite a new way of interpreting the game. The following are my thoughts but given that words can often come off more cold and mean then we want them to when writing them in text I wanted to clarify beforehand.
Have you watched Tarnished Archeologist? He offers a very compelling idea that the Greater Will can only act through a vassal, specifically through woman capable of childbirth. If Marika, the Greater Will's chosen vassal has rebellee and broken its connection to the world then maybe it simply can't interact with it. Also, if the Greater Will was dead then why are Tarnished being given back grace? Is it part of Marika's plan? Seems a little conviluted when everyone is telling you the Greater Will was the one to give grace to the Tarnished. Its also a bit too coincidental that the two fingers connection to the Greater Will would be broken at the exact time the Tarnished reaches the Erdtree for it to be simply a leftover message that no longer matters. And why would Ranni even have a questline if her goal of severing the connection to the Greater Will was already accomplished? Whats more, Gold Mask along with other Tarnished seems to have been given a vision to reforge the Elden Ring by the Greater Will itself so it cannot be dead. I think whats gojng on is an allegory to the Abrahamic God as you've pointed out in one of your videos. In the Bible, after repeated covenants have been broken by the Israelites God abandons his people and lets them be conquered. Heis not heard from again in Jewish belief but will return with the promised Son of Man, but for now he remains silent for thousands of years. Given the Christian iconography present in this game its likely that they are going with the Christian fufillment of that prophecy where a man is raised from the dead to save the world from its sins. Sound familiar? You are a Tarnished whose grace has been restored and the various endings with the exception of Ranni's and Frenzied Flame are establishments of new covenants with the Greater Will. This explains each changing era of gods and lords in elden ring as covenants and helps fill in a lot of missing information. That is not to say the Greater Will is God from the Bible as its motivations seem more based around a need for order but still you get the idea. Honestly, I think your video of the Greater Will's connection to the Biblical God explains a lot of whats going on here with Ranni's ending being a rejection of the covenant.
Still, interesting theory. We need more "outlandish" theories if we are ever going to solve this game.
Thank you for watching--and for leaving such a detailed comment!
In the game, where does it say that the Greater Will specifically is the one offering grace? I may have missed something, but from what I've seen, we're told that grace is provided by the Erdtree or the Elden Ring itself (which is inside the Erdtree after all, so that could explain the conflation). One of my upcoming videos will be on the guidance of grace and how it explains Marika's plan, so stay tuned!
So I don't think that the Two Fingers lost their connection with the Greater Will right when we come back; rather, as Gideon tells us, the Fingers have been broken for a while and they've been covering that fact up. And now that we've actually been to the Erdtree, but see that it's been sealed off, the Fingers know the ruse is up. (There could also be an element of slapstick comedy: The Fingers could be staying still in the hopes that we won't notice them.)
Ranni never mentions the Greater Will--her whole quest is about escaping the control of the Two Fingers and forging a new order. The Fingers are usurpers in charge of an organized religion. So Ranni's desire to free herself from them doesn't really depend on the (non)-existence of the Greater Will. It's not a 1:1 comparison but I like to think of the Fingers as akin to the Grand Inquisitor in the Brothers Karamazov.
That is a great question about how Goldmask received his revelation about the Mending Rune of Perfect Order and how he got his hands on it. What's also interesting is that in the 1.0 version, that rune is the only that makes the Elden Ring "whole once more." Definitely something to investigate though getting it from the Greater Will certainly would make sense.
All that said, I really love your comparison with the Tarnished mending the Elden Ring being akin to fulfilling a new covenant with the Greater Will! Taking it one step further, you could even interpret the Goldmask ending as a type of New Jerusalem, which would be another piece of evidence that his ending is the best ending. (And all that fits very well with my previous video on how the Frenzied Flame is the only good ending for Gnostics, who would reject the Greater Will as a demiurge.)
Personally, I love the fact that there are these drastically different interpretations of Elden Ring, but they're still cohesive and carry narrative and thematic weight. E.g., you can read Goldmask as both a Ubermensch AND as a John the Baptist figure, and both interpretations fit surprisingly well! The game is truly a masterwork.
@@garrulousgoldmask I couldn't agree more! This game, for all of its convoluted lore, is truly a masterpiece when it comes to crafting a world so open to possibilities.
As for my rebuttal to your theory, your right in that the game never tells you if the grace comes from the Greater Will and Ranni does only ever mention the two fingers as her enemy. Theres also that wierd quote from Marika about how she would take away their grace and give it back. I think the biggest piece of evidence for the "it was all her plan" theory comes from the fact that stakes of Marika work for us despite the cycle of death and rebirth in the lands between being halted. That being said, there still are some things that prevent me from going completely on board with the theory, for one, if Gideon was right and Marika wants us to struggle for all eternity than why would her plan involve luring Tarnished to the Erdtree where they might decide to burn the Erdtree? Maybe she didn't expect a lowely Tarnished to manage going that far?
The Two Fingers are super sketcky and so its believable they were just lying to us about the whole thing and the Greater Will really is gone in some way. As for the visions, there is an explaination for them if its not the Greater Will. They each have a connection to the stars, stars being the determiners of fate its possible they are leading Tarnished to the endings they want. The star The Dung Eater saw could easily be the bloodstar and maybe Goldmask's star is just the sun. I've had a theory that maybe the Greater Will is the sun and since its left thats why its so small in the sky but there isn't enough evidence for that and I don't know whether to believe it myself. In this scenario the covenant anaolgy fails but its possible we were looking too deeply into the symbology.
I'm still of the belief that the Greater Will is present because the Flame of Frenzy seems too diametrically opposed to it for it to not even care but that could just be part of the tragedy. Right now the theory is too much of a "reach" for me but maybe we find more evidence later and you can change my mind but no pressure. Still a great theory that I haven't seen a lot of good evidence for until this video.
So I think that Marika is the one who is guiding us through grace, since as you mentioned, she robs Godfrey of his grace, only to give it back much later. And that would also explain all the weird directions grace sends you on the map. As for Gideon, I like the theory that he was looking into the will of Radagon, since by continuing to struggle, the Tarnished won't become Elden Lord and replace Radagon.
I definitely like those ideas about the stars! The Greater Will being the sun (or at the very least, represented by it) would fit quite well since the rays of the Erdtree are compared to sunlight and there is also the mysterious Sunrealm Shield. Plus it's always sunny in Farum Azula!
That's totally understandable! Order and Chaos are definitely a compelling duality. And from a strictly pragmatic view, I'm not sure if there really is that much difference between the Greater Will being dead, the Greater Will never existing, and a non-responsive Greater Will.
First of all, I really enjoy your video. I think you're the first one to do justice to how the Fingers react to the fact that the Erdtree is closed. I've never thought about the time for the message to "reach" the Greater Will. I've always thought that either the GW ghosted the Finger or that it was itself thinking really hard about what to do next, making the Fingers freeze while waiting for the answer.
I was always of the opinion that the GW is very similar to the Outer Gods but, being in charge for so very long, its followers drank ther own kool-aid and believed he was a Father-of-all God. And of course, neither the GW nor the Fingers did anything to correct the mistake. I won't call it propaganda per se, but they sure influenced the whole culture of the Lands Between to go in that direction. It explained, for exemple, why every enemy of the Erdtree and the Golden Order wants to make a Lord + a consort structure. It is what they saw as the political and religious normalcy for centuries if not millenia. It is a social construct, not a cosmic force that push them to want this.
And I think, for this very reason, that what the followers of the Golden Order say about the nature of the world, the Order (as a social or cosmic Order), the gods, etc. can't be taken at face value. They either lie (most likely the Fingers) or know no better. It is a point easily forgotten. After a all, a common theme in Dark Souls and Bloodborne is that the true nature of the social and cosmic orders is very actively hidden, we need to be more suspicious, to paraphrase Nietzsche.
Anyway, I found your channel pretty much by chance and I hope to see your furture videos soon !
Hyetta’s dialogue with Komm susser tod playing in the background is a strangely good pairing that I’d never think of.
I love the Eva reference with the three fingers
That reference was so perfect. *chef kiss*
I just found this channel today while at work, and i gotta say man im loving the content. You approach the lore in a bit of a different way than some of the larger lore channels, and i think a lot of the ideas you put forward make a lot of sense. Keep it up
I always loved how the Elden Beast boss arena looks like the meeting place for countless Erdtrees, perhaps on different worlds, all sharing (or being) the Greater Will.
Fantastic video. I really don't know what to think, but I like the open-endedness of it all
Thank you so much! I wasn't trying to reach a specific conclusion since so much of the lore behind the GW is deliberately ambiguous, but to get people thinking about it in a whole new light.
There are two possibilities:
1. The One Great's shattering refers to the creation of the universe. Therefore, the Greater Will is indirectly responsible for life existing. Life here is a byproduct.
2. The One Great refers to the Crucible. Here, life is a consciously created object by the Will through Elden Stars.
In either case, the entire premise of this video depends on you ignoring one or the other. The Greater Will cannot possibly be described as weak; it is either directly or indirectly responsible for existence as we know it.
More importantly,the Golden Order does not worship the Greater Will. The Golden Order is founded on the principle of Marika being the one true God. The Greater Will is an afterthought; it is not the interest of the Order.
Moreover, Hyetta and the Three Fingers have every reason to downplay the Greater Will's role in existence. But they don't. As such, the premise that they are an untrustworthy source is faulty at best.
The assumption it could've been Marika does not hold much weight; nowhere do we hear pf Godfrey fighting Nox. The Nox were underground by the time the Carians were founded, most likely.
Marika was trapped inside the Erdtree and tortured without reprieve. Death is too merciful a punishment when it comes to the Will. She is kept alive because her Shattering the Elden Ring means shattering herself. Her dying without a successor would mean no vessel for the Elden Ring, and possibly the complete breakdown of the world's laws, even beyond how they are now. Either the Elden Beast wanted the world to keep going, or the Greater Will wanted it to keep going. Either way, Marika was punished.
There are three Empyreans. All of them are candidates for succession. If you think the Will shouldve just picked one up and gsve them the Ring,then you are thinking in terribly simple terms. They have to fight or choose whoever is going to recieve the Ring. Godhood is not given on a silver platter. Otherwise, why did Marika have to fight the Gloam Eyed Queen?
The opening cutscene told you what happened. The Greater Will abandoned the world in the Shattering, and only it's vassals are interested in convincing you it didn't. Whether it renews it's interest in this plane or not is not known to us, but by all accounts, it is content to let Marika, and the Lands Between, rot for eternity.
I heard and appreciated your creative liberty during the Hyetta dialogue.
The NGE music during Hyetta's speech was a nice touch 🤣
Nokron or Nokstella got literally banished...sunk underground. This accounts for why there is a huge chasm in Leyndell behind the front gate. It also lines up underneath the map. The buildings also have the same sculptures and styles of Leyndell.
Also just wanted to throw this out there because I was today years old when i realized that Farum A was tossing chunks of itself all over the world. That's why, particularly Limgrave is litered with these ancient ruins and why they are casually strewn about. At some point it was literally raining coliseum sized fragments lol
One thing I've noticed in the lore is that the Greater Will is both rarely mentioned by characters and is also never worshipped by anyone. Even those who follow The Golden Order only worship Marika as the one true god. The Two Fingers seem to be the only ones who follow the GW or even mention it at all and even then it's implied that they haven't communicated with the GW in a very long time.
The music during Hyetta dialogue was brilliant of you!😂
Maybe greater will is shy 👉👈
I always thought they said that they were pushed underground for creating a weapon that could kill a god, and bring a new age about, the finger slayer blade
Or perhaps the Greater Will is not dead, but has simply... Left.
I wonder which would be worse... Your god dying, or simply leaving you and your world behind.
The first one is devastating, but it has closure. The second could lead one to endless futile hope, to pray for thousands, even tens of thousands of moons for an answer that will never come... because god doesn't care about you anymore.
If God is dead, then all that remains is...Shabriri.
I mean, Grace is proof of its influence so i dont think god is dead
I think the greater will plants his ring and fingers with instructions and moves on, its probably seeded many universes and is LITERALLY light years away by now.
Bru spot on a year in advance
Incredibly interesting as always, sir!
Thanks!
Since the greater will is just the will of life in the lands between there is no getting rid of it. No matter what order the ring is configured the greater will is what configures it. Say if a different outer god were to take control. It would be still under the rule of the greater will. Also good to note that the outer good ar just concepts manifested
Bro had a vision
I've been wondering something similar, That some time after Marika decided that _"Dying is cringe"_ and removed the rune of death, then later fractured the whole thing, The Will lost something it needed to influence The Lands Between so it simply just lost interest and left;
Or maybe the Frenzy is correct, The One Great made a mistake that needs to be amended (or burned to nothingness) so that it may start anew.
I recommend checking out 'The Tarnished Archaeologist' series on The Great Tree, The Crucible, and The Erdtree, He has a pretty good theory on the sickles of the world.
You’ve easily persuaded me. I can see it in no other way now.
I love the idea but I'm going to need to think this over.
The people never understood the great one,they tried to manipulate the ring.All the factions have been destroyed by punishments we can see that.The greater will long has been against the demigods.Even the dragons did something wrong as well and were punished.All of them have caused chaos and deserved it from what I have seen.They picked out so many pieces of the ring it is broken.The ring is at the mercy not the greater will,because it is the greater will is guiding us to be elden lord and has done it like it has done many times.Greater will no longer talks to the fingers it has other things to worry about.It has made us immortal I call that powerfull to have control over actual life and death.We do not come back as a ghost we get our flesh back with our equipment.We are missing this because we are playing a game.Makes us remember how in real life you die and do not come back it is game over.It is the greater will who guides us and it lives in all life like the force.
Keep at it I like your videos and your voice
Thank you!
The Greater Will actually abandoned the Lands Between a loooong time ago!!! Thanks to the new lore, we now know. :D
How
@@meezy5671 I don't know HOW they did, but it's heavily implied throughout all the new lore. Metyr is broken, the two fingers can't contact the Greater Will, & it's likely the abandonment of the Golden Order might've actually lead to the Shattering as well. It is fully possible that the timeline of events may have transpired in a very different order to what was originally thought.
@@xoldrakesanguine2009 then how do you explain the grace that we see? That guides us. Don’t forget who gave you life tarnished. Have faith.
@@meezy5671 Well.. that's Marika's will, not neccesarily the Greater Will's. After all, she's supposed to be an envoy, but there are hints to it being her guiding you; considering that her mother is Marika, and she is in fact Messmer's sister, she is also being guided toward the tree for her purpose. Marika is imprisoned; just as with Miquella, Godhood is said to be a prison; it makes sense she'd desire the end.
@@xoldrakesanguine2009 no brother, it’s the greater will that guides us to restore order into a land that is fractured. Imo the greater will is what modern folks would call a “monotheistic god”. There’s a reason that the answer to it is not flat out given in the game and that we have to theorize. It’s just like life! You must have faith.
I guess now we know. The greater will never influenced the gold order. It was just marika and the fingers
But I guess marika thought they were the gods
SInce you asked, yes the subtitles are helpful, and I did enjoy your caption comments on the video itself, both the informative and the comical
Glad to hear!
With dlc out and mother of fingers there...
We know that she tried to communicate with the Greater Will. But she couldn't. It all just points that it isn't dead, but rather ignoring us. Like any Cosmic Entity, it might have simply lost interest in the world of Lands Between and its people.
The one great(greater will original form) casted out all the flames of calamity In the first shattering in order to try to create the perfect world. This was a mistake and its other pieces became the outer gods stars.
The greater will went dormant and became the sun
Loved the Happy Souls reference 😎👍
I'd add "...right down the road!" 😁
Right down the road. 👍
As far as the defeat of the Nox and their exile underground, I feel like the Nox were the actual enemy in the First Liurnian War, not Caria or Raya Lucaria. It never made sense to me how there were two wars between Liurnia and the Erdtree. There are enough links between Liurnia and the Nox, like puppetry, some use of silver, architecture, those large sentient wrecking balls, and a culture built around reverence of the moon and stars.
If you ask me. I think the Greater Will did in fact abandon the realm. As the intro narrator speaks.
I don't think the Greater Will can possibly be dead because, aside from the fact that no such a thing is ever mentioned even tangentially in the game, I don't think something like the Greater Will can even die at all. The idea doesn't even mean anything.
I think there are a few things to think about. First of all, we know that the Crucible is the origin of all life, and that the Crucible is also the Erdtree at a primordial stage of its evolution, that the Crucible was always marked by a golden tint of red, that Placidusax uses golden fire and has remains of golden scales that likely once were the entirety of his skin, and finally that the Erdtree is intimately linked to the Elden Ring/Elden Beast as changing stuff with the Elden Ring immediately leads to changes in the Erdtree. With the Shattering, the Erdtree felt its end coming and started releasing Golden Seeds, and I think the transition from Crucible to modern Erdtree was sparked by Marika's removal of the Rune of Death, since the timeline converges at that moment in time.
Now, if the Crucible/Erdtree works according to the Elden Ring's runic order, and all life originates from the Crucible, how could there be Nox on Earth when the Elden Ring crashed on Earth? There could be no life, not even ancient dragons, since all that stuff comes from the Crucible, that is, from the Elden Ring and the divine power of the Greater Will that created life on Earth.
First the Greater Will created life and order through the Elden Ring and its associated Crucible/Erdtree, then the Dragons ruled on the primordial Golden Order of the age of the Crucible, then the Greater Will must have decided to switch the ownership of the world from dragons to mankind, and removed the Elden Ring from Placidusax's companion and gave it to Marika. Finally during Marika's reign she completed the transformation of Crucible into modern Erdtree likely by removing the Rune of Death, as the fundamental changes in how death and life operate likely also changed how the Erdtree sustained life, and things like Omen became a reviled symbol of surpassed beliefs and barbarism compared to the new Golden Order as envisioned by Marika. Clearly both the Greater Will and the Elden Beast leave a lot of discretion to their subordinates, because they let her do all this freely.
I feel like Marika wasn't killed because you can't get rid of your Elden Ring container without having a new one immediately on hand, and there weren't any acceptable options at the time. Malenia was afflicted by Rot, Miquella was afflicted by his inability to grow, and Ranni had successfully got rid of its Empyrean flesh, and anyway the Lands Between were engulfed in war and since neither the Greater Will nor the Elden Beast ever seem to do anything directly but leave stuff to their vassal Fingers the situation couldn't be resolved. We also know that the Greater Will, or maybe the Fingers, ultimately lost faith in the Demigods and wanted a Tarnished to rule, but it might be that at this point the Greater Will had already abandoned the Lands Between to themselves entirely as a failed project, and only the abandoned Fingers still try to keep their thing going, hoping their god will forgive them like Placidusax did in the past, also with no luck.
As for how the Formless Mother can be contacted seemingly immediately, I think this might be one of those little translation issues that ended up creating established narratives in the Elden Ring community that not necessarily hold truth.
It is commonly believed that the Greater Will is an Outer God, like others. What if this isn't true?
What if the Greater Will is indeed a superior cosmic entity that rules over the universe, and the Outer Gods are outsider gods that exist as Kami, outside of the established order of the Golden Order? That's what "Outer" might stand for, and thus the Formless Mother would simply be a powerful spirit that exists on Elden Ring's Earth, and her followers can gain her power, but as a minor god she's liable to be imprisoned (like the God of Rot imprisoned by Malenia's sword master) or almost destroyed (like the god of the giants). Her power can be more easily summoned, but it's also a far lesser being compared to the Greater Will's cosmic power of creation and order. Indeed, some Outer Gods directly oppose the Golden Order while others seem to want to hijack the Elden Ring by placing their own empyrean and Elden Lord as rulers, like Mohg and the Formless Mother seem to want, but even then they'd still rule under a system fundamentally governed by the Greater Will's power, who's apparently pretty okay with leaving a lot of freedom to its subjects as long as they don't do things as stupendously stupid such as trying to break the Ring.
Lmao at the music behind hyetta
How can a sentient concept be dead I think it's like the most ancient Eldritch Abominations of Lovecraft In that you can't destroy a living fundamental law a pillar of reality/existence/the universe it's like gravity.
Perhaps not dead, or gone, or even unable. The greater will seems to be, above anything else, manipulative and it seems to do so in the subtle ways. Every ending being attached to it in some way re-creating order it deigned exist (cept good ole Shabriri). You describe it seemingly as a weaker force, and maybe it doesn't need to be strong. Machiavellian villains or powers / whatever can be as bad or worse than brute force depending on setting and parameters. What if its really strong, but not compared to Marika / Radagon or even Radahn, what if it could easily be bested by a single man, but not be outsmarted, or outmaneuvered.
thank you very much that really needed to be said
The Greater Will can only work through its agents, the Elden Beast, the two fingers, and the finger readers. These kinds of beings are not good at roaming the land to find Empyrian replacements, which is why there are Gods and Champions that are more active in the land.
Marika wasn't killed because she still embodies the Elden Ring, and a great person needs to be found that can take up the burden and there are rules for that.
Namely 'born of a single god', and Marika is the only fertile god on the land capable of self-reproducing. So she just can't easily be killed off.
That's why the Greater Will is looking for a new champion to restore Marika instead of looking for a new empyrian.
Ranni has cut herself off, and Miquella and Millenia broke from the Golden Order so there are no empyrians left to take up the Elden Ring.
Great video, love your script and double thanks for providing the item descriptions!
Thanks for watching!
So what's the item or dialogue that says how the Greater Will works? I tried to be thorough in the video and I really hope I didn't miss anything!
And that's a really interesting point you bring up about Marika self-reproducing.
@@garrulousgoldmask It is from the finger reader dialogue after you burn the erd tree and are told to wait a few thousand years for the Greater Will to get in touch
Nothing will stop the age of stars 🤩
I’m glad I am not the only one who has made the connection between Evangelion and Elden Ring.
I wonder if its a case of the greater will being an imense cosmic being and the elden beast is just a small spore of it.
Very nice video :)
Thank you for watching!
The Greater Will is just god and a bunch of people are claiming to see something that others can't see. It's kind of like main stream christianity. People claim to hear the voice of god but they cannot prove it but we also can't prove that they didn't. It's a long game of telephone in the Land's Between.
The crucible incantations say all life was once blended together in it all life and it says it is an ancient erdtree incantation elden stars says it is the oldest that derives from the erdtree even older than the crucible incantations meaning the elden stars event predates the crucible and thus all life the erdtree is the result of marika and it goes through many stages of growth and evolution like any tree
Also the greater will was never involved it being dead is quite a presumption also the greater will doesn’t seem like an outer god at all an outer god represents a particular concept and spreads an affliction without exception the outer god of the death birds represents death yet there is a rune of death in the elden literally embodying death and the rune of rebirth what the scarlet rot supposedly is the greater will doesn’t embody anything as far as we know what we know is he shattered the one great and created disparity and thus the world we see and sent the elden ring and the Elden ring became the seed bed of all life in the lands between the outer gods as they are called seem like kami to me deities that embody certain forces of nature and act upon the world through that force because without disparity which the greater will predates all the concepts that outer gods embody can’t exist without disparity you can’t have death blood madness or rot but what we do know is that the greater will acts through vassals and only directly intervenes when things are very very very dire he directly intervenes with us the tarnished we become true immortals unable to die a power everyone else lacks we get instantly reformed after death not even maliketh can kill us even though he has destined death our power defies a piece of the elden ring and thus comes from something greater he directly intervenes with marika and he imprisonment the reason he can’t simply remove the elden ring from marika is because the elden ring and marika are one and the same when it get shattered so does marika
Lastly it commands the largest power in the universe the elden ring itself changing the ring changes all of reality death life order stars all of it is connected to this ring and it is under the greater wills command
Hmm. I don’t think we need posit that the Greater Will is deceased in order to explain its seeming lack of activity or direct influence. Instead, we should consider the implications that it simply was never “living” in the sense that a mortal, or even a mortal-turned-god, is a living thing. It seems much more like an abstract cosmic force embodying order than a living creature to me. Bernahl’s boasting aside, I don’t think it has a physical form, and might not even have a sentient mind. It’s hard to say one way or the other if it is one of the Outer Gods, but it does share with them one important characteristic - it cannot directly affect the world, and needs to do so by means of vassals and proxies. That’s why it didn’t take direct action even back in ancient times when the Fingers had more direct communication with it, only sending the Elden Beast/Ring as a means through which it can spread Order.
So if it is alive (or well, “still existent” may be a better term here), what precisely caused the Fingers to “lose their purpose”, and why does it take them so long to speak to it? That I’m not quite sure. The item description on Lord’s Divine Fortification has puzzled me since the game came out, and I can’t really give you a good alternate explanation. One thing I can say, however, is that one individual does seem to be capable of communicating with the Greater Will directly - Goldmask. The way his meditations are presented imply he is acting as a sort of “Human Two Fingers” in that he remains silent and communicates entirely by moving two of his fingers in a way akin to the aforementioned creatures, getting a direct line to the Greater Will and trying to discern its divine plan, which leads him to rediscover the Mending Rune of Perfect Order. But if he can reach the Greater Will, then what is wrong with the Fingers? Perhaps that’s the real question we need to answer.
I am of the belief that in the lands between there are three gods the greater will, the moon, and the frenzied flame, all others are outer gods who were let in by the numens, the three gods were possibly at one point in a fragile peace with each other, possibly with humanity being their main focus and only real thing keeping them from fighting each other but then the numans came along and with them multiple outers gods who caused this fragile peace to break down and now we get the mess left behind
Two fingers are definetely lying about it taking thousands of years to communicate. There is no way an entire empire could be built around greater will with that kind of communication delay. What if two fingers just made the whole thing up? There is no greater will, two fingers are really powerful manipulators, and most of the heavy lifting is actually done by power of erdtree that is just enhanced version of crucible.
Wouldnt be first time either. Miayazaki loves using enigmatic NPCs with questionable motives and origins in his games. Frampt in DS1 quite literally made up the whole legend about undead and how they need to become lords of fire.
I think Marika was one of the eternals of nokron, we know that the nokrons worshiped the eternals and that the nokrons are descendants of the numen this would explain why marika is associated with the black nife assasins Marikas action were what got nokron banished she killed on of her fellow eternals to create the finger slayer blade and used it to upend the current crucible (dragon) order and become a god for a more puritan greater will based order without the influences of lesser gods such as the fell god, god of rot, and the formless mother, The greater will used to allow these outer gods influence on the world but marikas actions made the greater will take a more hands on approach
lol'd at the evangelion final theme whan speaking with Hyetta
I believe the player is the personification of the greater will not radegon and marika or the elden beast which is cut off from the greater will as the player has the greatest impact on the events in the game an erdleaf falls on a random body (the player) that revived then proceeded to do things that the body/soul before the player had taken control would not and could not have done.
At the very least the greater will has imbued "the flame of ambition" to the player character.
If an auter god is strong enough to kill him so it should be strong enough to take the lands between maybe it was weakned by the chattering
Is there a discord for the channel?
Tbh, I didn't think there would be any demand for one!
@garrulousgoldmask had some things I wanted to share with you ER wise but felt it might be too involved for TH-cam. Figured I'd ask and see ^_^
BTW, referencing a conversation we had a while back, if we're going by naming conventions being familial links, I would offer that Selen, Azur, and Lussat are related, as all of their names refer to a mineral~
Lussatite is specifically very interesting in this bunch. It comes from a very distinct region of France where an ancient Temple of Mercury was errected that had both Celtic and Roman architecture for prayer rooms, perhaps similar to how the Church of Vows and Celes Manus have Noxian and Lleyndell architecture. The mineral itself also has some interesting fossilized helix patterns, which look veryyyyy reminiscent of Spirit Caller Snails. The whole area is dominated by a large lake feature as well~
Could just be confirmation bias, but it is interesting at the very least. But yeah, considering their common interests and similar names, I would wager that the Primeval Sorcerers are related, rather than Selen being related to Renalla. Of course, they could all be related to each other, idfk.
I appreciate the ask--feel free to shoot me a DM on reddit or to my gmail!
That is a terrific find--thank you! It is so uncanny how much the Lussatite look like snails. And in the Sellia Hideaway where Lusat is locked up, we can find all kinds of crystal snails as well as the Putrid Crystalian trio. And snails (both in our world and in the Lands Between) have been associated with resurrection, not unlike the primal glintstones.
There definitely is some kind of closer connections going on with those three! Azur was Sellen's teacher and Azur and Lusat were founding glintstone sorcerers. And the sigil used for the Night sorceries has two crossed staves, which to me look awfully similar to Azur and Lusat's staves. So I think it's more than likely that Azur and Lusat were brothers/partners/BFFs at some point, though I'm still on the fence as to how Sellen fits in with those two.
In any case, thank you so much for sharing!!
I wonder if the Golden Order exagerrated the attributes and domains of the Greater Will to make it look more powerful than it really is. You want to tell me that in this universe where there are multiple powerful entities that one of them is the greatest of all? Sounds suspicious to me. It makes me think which attributes of Greater Will are true and which were added up by the golden oder.
It's like in real life where a deities attributes change and develop over time as the culture it's worshipping evolves or how different cultures who worship the same entity emphasize different attributes of the same deity.
I want to hear you say "garrulous" so bad. No reason 😂
What if the Nox were banished by the greater will before Marika's Ascension?
I notice that the Radagon removing the rune of the unborn theory now conflicts with your theory that Godwyn was born cursed with deathblight!
What accent do you have? It's very distinct
I wish I knew! I moved around a lot when I was a kid so my accent basically became a Rorschach test for anyone who hears it.
The greader bill.
The will of all time! Or not I guess lol
The death of all time!
greater will is the will but greater. it therefore will not die.
Seem like chinese mythology. The first and strongest god born from chaos. He split chaos to light and dark, but after that he die too. His body become world for creatures live
I believe the greater will is just the greater literal will. Currently its radigon.
I don't think it's dead, but simply fucked off. Who knows how many worlds it has aside from this one? Might simply be that the lands between us just it's side chick and it only checks in once every ten thousand years or so.
If the Greater Will is dead, what resurrected the Tarnished?
Grace from the Elden Ring.
The greater will is not an outer god. It’s the will of the lands between. Intelligence was gifted to the beast men which led to manifestation. The collective unconscious of the people of the lands between is the greater will. Interesting saying into dead. Because the will of the land is shattered
Algormancy!
Nah, too much especulation. "The Greater Will abandoned the lands between "
Plane and simple
True, though I wanted to explore why and how the Greater Will went out for a pack of cigarettes.
@@garrulousgoldmask Yah... I think being such a supreme being had other places to domain and said f*ck it once the Eternal Queen broke the comand in a tantrum.
Maybe that's why Goldmask discovered the rune by stablishing contact with the Greater Will using the Two Fingers method to communicate.
Just that the Two Fingers are tarnished (thats why they get old and can't make contact) like fallen angels for acting by their own interest while Goldmask recieved grace once again so can see the Erdtree and communicate like he was an actual Two Fingers.
@@garrulousgoldmask another pseudo clue of this is that he referenced a "Golden Halo" which is bith the shape of the rune he discovered and a sign the Elden Beast makes when it makes it's first explosive attack while rising to the sky
Oh, that's a great theory! I really like how seamless that fits in. That could also explain how Goldmask was able to discover his mending rune--it could have been hidden or lost and no one else had the ability to ask the Greater Will for directions. And Goldmask, ever the Chad, does have his own Finger Maiden in Corhyn (which is a masculinized version of the Greek word for...maiden).
Maybe this supposed death (or incapacitation) could be explained with the concept of the Holy Trinity.
Jesus is not just portrayed as the Son of God, but as the very thing that holds the universe together:
The *Logos*
This a philosophical concept created by Heraclitus, and used by Apostle John, which is basically the set of rules that govern all events in the universe, the *cosmic law* .
You see what else fits this description? The Elden Ring.
With this, i think you're already seeing where i'm going:
(YWHW/The Greater Will) sends the living incarnation of the concept of order: (Jesus/Elden Beast) to earth.
And they end up being killed by men.
The thing is, continuing this comparison, Jesus is not just a separarate entity from God, but he says that he is One with the Father.
"In him dwells the exact expression of his being." As Apostle Paul puts.
If we apply this same concept to Elden Ring, this could mean that shattering the Elden Beast would have some effect on the Greater Will itself, because the Beast is not just a vassal, but also part of the GW's being.
That's specially interesting when you consider that Jesus also behaves like that: as an obedient vassal, but also as God incarnate.
That's an interesting interpretation! I really like that comparison between the Elden Stars and Logos. And the Two Fingers talisman does say that the Fingers taught the Tarnished the words of their faith, which fits!
Though I wonder Marika and the Shattering of the Elden Ring would fit in this framework.
@@garrulousgoldmask What exactly doesn't fit about Marika?
Oh I was thinking more about where Marika would fit in the Holy Trinity schema if the Elden Beast is the analogue to Christ.
@@garrulousgoldmask She would probably be the Holy Spirit.
She's the one who channels the power of the other two and actually uses it. She's the one who extended the guidance of Grace to the Tarnished.
The Holy Spirit has a similar funcion in Christianity:
It's through him that God's power is manifested, imparting God's "guidance* and *power.*
He's basically God's mean of action and communication, being also considered God.
Just like Marika, the Elden Beast and the Greater Will are considered gods.
Actually GW never existed as we think of existence it is same as nietzsche's will to power.
You have not properly understood the nature of the Greater Will, the greater will is beyond life and death, it fractured the One Great then came fractures(death, separation of being), births, souls.
Before the occurrence of life and death, the Greater Will is, so the Greater Will cannot die and everything that happens, happens in accordance with its will, regardless of what that is.
The order Marika brought was not the order the Greater Will desired so Marika breaks the elden ring so that new order can come about and even after you choose the Chaos ending, it is still in accordance with its will. Destroy everything and then the Greater Will can begin creating anew.
Everything that happens in Elden Ring, happens because the Greater Will has allowed it to occur.
No... Things can definitely get out of Greater Will's hand, even in the intro it said so: "A war leading to abandonment by the Greater Will.", while I do believe that quote was meant for Greater Will abandoned the Demi God as the quote before that was "A war from which no lord arose." and the fact that Lost Grace has returned to the tarnished. And the Frenzied Flame said "the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake. And so, what was borrowed must be returned." I believe the "mistake" here was awareness itself, which is why everyone is absorbed by the "flame of ambition" once they get their hands on the great runes.
Also "fractures, and births, and souls." Were the creations of the One Great, not because the Greater Will deviate itself from the One Great.
@@hainguyn948 The mistake was fracturing the One Great and creating everything, the frenzied flame sees this as a mistake of the Greater Will which is why it seeks to rectify it by burning everything with the chaos flame and returning it to the One Great.
@@hainguyn948 So really a mistake would depend on one's perspective, from the perspective of the Greater Will there are no mistakes.
Elden RIng is like a bad translation of the entire history of Christianity was sent to the Japanese to inspire them in making a game. Like Miyazaki likes his lore.
One could theorize God dead like Nietzsche proclaimed and the priests continued the worship for their own gains or even more sinister like the incarnate Christ was killed two thousand years ago and the apostles made a cult around it. Could be similar with the GW.
We'll probably won't find its corpse for proof.
i just realized enya says it will take eons before the greater will speaks again....shadow of the erdtree is speculated to possibly take place in the future ala ringed city dlc. What if the reason we go into the future is to hear this final instruction from the greater will? the ending is ours to choose because the greater will doesnt give us specific instructions but what if once we get the dlc we get to see what the greater will actually wants from us?
and maybe the deathroot strangling the tree is simply the result of further eons of decay without a new order, like how the ringed city ending is the future of thousands and thousands of years of letting the fire fade.
The question then would be how do we access It?
when told how long communing with the GW Would take, do we get the option to Just sit there?
Either way definitely an interesting idea, assuming the Fingers are actually truthfull about what they do and aren't actually useless, or even traitors to the Greater Will.
The greater will no longer exist, just like the one great.
The greater will has shattered into multiple stars like the one great did long ago
The greater will does die and becomes the Elden tree from dropping its runes
I honestly, for me isn't hard to suscribe to this theory
primary because I like to think that Marika just invented with the greater will for her own agenda and all the stuff related to it is bullshit that the she or the GO make up
Elden stores
Ur accent is so cute lol
Alive or dead, it abandoned the world to stagnation and decay.
The only logical choice for any sort of future is Ranni's Age of Stars.
You talk like Elmer Fudd dude.
"The Gweater Will", "Only four chawacters"
@@donniexiong6306Why have you never heard of speech impediments? Are you stupid?
Stopped the video at 6.08, cool video but it's just that the greater will is canonically (Specified in both comics and the official books) the creator of the er universe and its concepts. Marika was not killed becase the greater will decided to punish her "As the two finger stated". The greater will is the life force of the entire universe basically as you can see what happened to even Marika the instant she shattered the Elden RIng with a "regular" hammer which is her hammer.
Ah, it's a shame you stopped! So what are the comics and the official books you mentioned? I know there's a manga but that's deliberately tongue-in-check (the very first issue is called You Thought This Would Be Serious?) so I don't think we can draw any real lore conclusions from that. And I know there are art books but as far as I'm aware they just have the concept art for the game.
In any case, even if the Greater Will is the creator of the whole universe (which I do mention as a possibility), it has had a very minimal presence and there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests it's no longer alive.
I also think it's very telling that the Fingers didn't try to (or maybe more accurately, couldn't) replace Marika as Empyrean.
I think Marika was one of the eternals of nokron, we know that the nokrons worshiped the eternals and that the nokrons are descendants of the numen this would explain why marika is associated with the black nife assasins Marikas action were what got nokron banished she killed on of her fellow eternals to create the finger slayer blade and used it to upend the current crucible (dragon) order and become a god for a more puritan greater will based order without the influences of lesser gods such as the fell god, god of rot, and the formless mother, The greater will used to allow these outer gods influence on the world but marikas actions made the greater will take a more hands on approach