7.62 x 39 has been adopted before AK. SKS used that ammo and they were supposed to be a main assault riffle (while AK was supposed to be a light support machine gun)
@@robertjones2811 More like that the evolution of the bolt action rifle to the self-loading rifle had a dead end and the new concept of a rifle-submachine gun hybrid (id est assault rifle) was the way forward.
Well, yes, I don't deny it) The AK was created for an existing cartridge (as always happens in the weapons industry). I just didn't talk about the SKS because the video would have become too loaded
while the AK entered service later than the SKS the SKS and AK were planned at the same time. orginally the soviet military wanted to standardise on one cartridge for both the rifle replacement (the SKS), the light machinegun replacement (the RPD) and the submachinegun replacement (the AK). note that the SKS was considered a carbine not a rifle, but it was the rifle replacement, and the AK was not considered a submachinegun, just the replacement of the submachine gun's tactical role. It was quickly discovered that the AK could do the role of a rifle just aswell as the SKS so they ended up replaceing the SKS too, the only reason the SKS had any service life was because it was developed early enough to enter production before the AK, which had a longer developement.
@@huh-cb1rktrue but the concept of both guns were created at the same time. They just produced the sks first as it was originally meant to be the standard infantry rifle while the ak was to replace just the smg’s
I don't think the 5.56 or the 5.45mm cartridges are going away any time soon. Even if they don't penetrate newer body armors, if you are taking hits from either cartridge you will stop what you are doing and seek cover (while the guy shooting at you has a buddy call in artillery fire or sends a drone). There are also no generally issued body armor systems that cover 100% of a soldier's body. IMO the armor penetration concern is overblown and the advantages of light weight and low recoil of the older cartridges still apply. Also, the US M-4 platform is lightweight, reliable and highly modular. It will continue to be used for a long time.
Longer range. The AK47 sights go out to an optimistic 800m, but the round goes unstable at 400m and is an area of effect weapon beyond that. In Afghanistan, the Enfield rifles of the Mujahideen could safely engage Russian troops from a distance.
One note: The new russian calibre was not aksed for by the russian MOD. Its a project by Tula (they developed the round and Kalshnikov (they developed the rifle for it). This does not mean that the russian army will be equip with ether the round or the AK-22
The soviets made the switch to 5.45mm when they recieved captured m16s from veitnan. Thought the americans were on the something. Mikail kalasnikov opposed the 5.45mm and wanted to improve the 7.62x39mm
The Yugoslavs did improve the 7.62x39 a bit when they introduced their M67 ball, which had a hollow cavity in the tip underneath the jacket which allowed the bullet to tumble much sooner after penetration. However the USSR stuck with the mild steel core M43 ball for a long time even after the Yugoslavs introduced the M67 ball. This same hollow cavity is what allows the 5.45 to tumble so rapidly as well, whereas 5.56 relies on velocity for fragmentation in flesh. Some Russian manufacturers began using M67 ball post-1991 in 7.62x39. Which as everyone knows the greatest advantage to using the smaller 5.45/5.56/5.8 is that a soldier can carry twice as much ammo, and in most battlefield situations it has been shown that each individual soldier being able to carry twice as much of a less powerful cartridge is more effective than a soldier carrying fewer of a more powerful cartridge.
@@FinalFront yugoslav ammo was alway a favorite of mine, wether fired from my mausers or AK. Way better then the steel and laqured soviet ammo. I still have a ton of it too.
The Russians and in turn the Soviets already though had what was considered an intermediate round. They had the Fedorov Avtomat in 6.5 Japanese. Japan didn't consider that round big enough, at least for bolt actions, which is why they came up with the 7.7 Japanese. @@tatsuhirosatou5513
There was an episode of History Channel's "Tales Of The Gun" where Kalashnikov states that he was against the adoption of the 5.45mm. But this was in the early 2000's, way after the fall of the USSR...
Yes. The clip they used was a video from the 90s where Eugene Stoner, AR-15/M16 inventor, met Mikhail Kalashnikov and talked about their respective weapons and the reasons any changes where made. Kalashnikov has also voiced his disagreement to switch calibers but as a loyal Soviet citizen he changed his design to meet his nations requirements.
The struggle for all armies around the world is to find a cartridge/caliber that can do everything a little bit. Long, accurate range, reliability, ease of manufacture, lighter recoil, penetration power and cost effective. The 5.56mm NATO round is good for short range engagements against enemy personnel, but that is all. 7.62mm NATO is better suited for longer range engagements and lightly armoured vehicles. Everyone is trying to find the "magic" caliber, if there is such a one. Thanks for this video.
Kind of shows when the US Army when to the new rifle with a 6.8 cartridge, making it between the 7.62 and the 5.56. Rifle aside, sounds like somewhere between those two might suit that “do it all” round.
It's funny. The us switched to 30 06 because supposedly the 30 40 krag sucked vs the 7mm mauser. Then the 7.62x51 comes along which is like a glorified 30 40 krag. Then everything goes out the window and the 5.56 is standard. And now full circle with the 6.8 thing probably not much different than a 7mm mauser used in ww1.
For man-handled arms, the 5.56 NATO is more than sufficient, even with the M249 SAW. The 7.62 x 51 is suitable for a sniper rifle, but also heavier crew-served automatic weapons.
@@TH-camPrimer-zm1xi thats because it did. fun fact the 30-06 is 7mm mauser, because the m1903 springfield is a stolen mauser rifle, so they thought "were already stealing the designs of the rifle, might as well steal the round". another fun fact, mauser later sued the US government because they were using stolen tech in 1914 i believe. so when war broke out the court case was sidelined, and the US took the patients given to them for the court case and stole everything else they could get their hands on. and after the war settled with a million dollar settlement after the war.
Great video 👍 6mm ARC, 6mm MAX, and especially 6.5 Grendel are all great cartridges sold primarily in the US market for AR-15 caliber conversions, but all of the above would be better suited in an AK pattern due to the larger neccessary bolt face diameter and the proper magazine curvature geometry... I think Serbia adopted 6.5G AK pattern systems for some type of sizeable contract for either their military or police, but I'm surprised more countries haven't been slowly working towards this goal... It's kind of the best of both worlds between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39, besting both without sacrificing much of anything besides a slightly higher cartridge weight that 5.45, but not 7.62x39. Although the AK platform isn't quite as modular as an AR-15, a bolt, barrel, recoil spring, and magazine are fairly easy items to reconfigure even in an AK once the decision is made to produce the new tooling... Plus Serbia and Russia (among others) already have 6.5G in production, so there isn't much need for load development or case/projectile designs as its already been done. Ammunition production line changes aren't extreme when compared to something that is much longer, or extremely high pressure, so tooling up ammo production wouldn't be prohibitively expensive... But I also understand the classic argument of hundreds of millions of cartridges already existing so why change for what on a modern battlefield is becoming more of a personal defense weapon while supporting more powerful beltfed MGs, high payload systems from automatic grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, guided munitions, drones, aircraft or vehicle mounted systems with high payload capabilties and autocannons... Do you really NEED a more powerful, flatter shooting, standard issue cartridge that does only slightly better at barrier or very very light armor penetration for the cost of the logistics involved? (like helmets or woven material, not hard plates) I mean it would 100% be beneficial, but I can see why most replacement cartridge programs "fail" or atleast have limited adoption, especially in a time of conflict or very likely conflicts on the horizon... But I'd take one of these new intermediate cartridges for a standard issue carbine any day over the stupid 6.8 NGSW round! That cartridge only makes sense for beltfed MGs, designated marksman rifles, or other special purpose uses, not a standard issue "carbine" cartridge! Which I'm sure is where it will end up assuming it actually gets adopted in any sizeable numbers in the near future...
Yup I believe you are 100% correct in the assumption of the new US cartridge be used only in a specialty role in the infantry squad as a dedicated marksman. I am an ex Army Infantry officer and avid firearms Instructor and hobbyist for decades. That new round would burn up barrels at an alarming rate in combat, rendering a huge logistical nightmare and down time.
@@MrSuba47the Japanese in WW2 used 6.5 variant. It was reportedly going right through Americans with little deformation/trauma due to it being to aerodynamic. The navy likewise used a 6.5 to punch through the hulls of lightly armored ships. Apparently the same issues with lethality came up
The 6x41 is a much better do-it-all cartridge. I was very disappointed that they chose a battle rifle cartridge again, instead of a high performance intermediate cartridge
Fallschirmjägergewehr 42 In 1942 the Germans launched the FG 42. It has selective fire control, semi and full auto. It fires the 7.92×57mm Mauser - a full-power rifle cartridge. The FG 42 is also known for its accuracy and controllability. It is possible to make an assault rifle (or combat rifle), firing full-power cartridges, if one is willing to look in the right places.
Correct, but you're forgetting several major things about the FG-42 that make it suboptimal as an assault rifle: One, the FG-42 was only supposed to fire in single shot or short bursts. If you tried to use an FG for sustained fire like an LMG, the weapon's gas system would effectively destroy itself, and even the Germans were aware of this when creating training manuals. Two, the FG weighs 5 pounds (or 4-5 kilos), whereas an AKM weighs pounds/3 kilograms, or an M4 carbine which weighs 6.5 pounds/3 kilos. That doesn't sound like a lot, but for an assault rifle that's very heavy, which actually makes it a bit of a surprise for me that it was only used by paratroopers. Three, assault rifles are *by definition* chambered for intermediate cartridges, not to mention the FG was used more as a light support weapon than a proper infantry. The FG-42 would more likely be classified as automatic rifle, similar to guns like the BAR, Chauchat, or Fedorov-Avtomat. And finally, as noted in the video, militaries didn't *want* a standard combat rifle to use full-power cartridges, that's kind of the whole point. If they really did want to standardize on a battle rifle, NATO could easily have just stuck to the FN FAL or M14 (which there are modernized versions of), and these rifles do get used as DMRs, but they're not standard issue for a reason. Even the US's new .277 Fury round is sort of an intermediate between full-power and true intermediate cartridges.
You’re probably the only English speaking channel that talks about Russian military topics and equipment without bashing or simply barfing US propaganda. Good job!
The case length needs to be longer than just 41mm. Something like 44mm or 45mm sounds better. A longer, thinner cartridge is better than a wider, shorter one too. That allows more ammo to be fit into a magazine.
Longer cartridges actually introduce their own set of problems, since the action needs to be longer in order to cycle and eject with a longer cartridge. For example, the US specifically switched from the 30-06 cartridge to .308 because they could get very similar performance out of a much shorter cartridge, which gave them more options when it comes to rifle design, since the action can now be over 1cm shorter.
@@encompassthyeclipse7278modern commercial 30-06 is much more powerful than the traditional military stuff from 100 years ago. When they shortened it to make 7.62 NATO a different powder formula for at gave it similar performance to the original 30-06 despite the smaller case volume
No, but we are starting to see a rise of semi auto DMR rifles using full powered rifles rounds for a similar reason, and because of the growing range in modern combat.
@@constantinethecataphract5949 battle rifles are different to DMRs. They can overlap but battle rifles such as the SCAR H, G3 FAL, and many AR-10 configurations are basically used in the same way modern intermediate rifles are used. intended for close to medium range.
Many thanks for the quite interesting overview. Probably there must be a separation between submachine guns - carbines and line army weapons or those for special operations. The 7,62 calibre is a reliable solution, and it is the only factor of sa 10 further ones to decide a military conflict. Paul,68
In the new age of drone warfare, the combat distance has extended. So moving back to a higher calibre now makes sense, when the effective range of rifles needs to be longer than before. That is to say, in an environment dominated by artillery and FPV drones, close quarters and house-to-house fighting between infantry is much rarer, because the question of who can occupy the ground tends to be determined before soldiers can come that close.
As an ex serbian infantry soldier...I was once handed the AK74...served me well and usually hit what I wanted it to hit without beating me up too much. Then i was handed the AK74M and i was in love with 5.45
Pay attention to the 6x49 cartridge. It has an interesting detail - an additional groove at the bottom of the sleeve. This design allows you to counteract the stretching of the metal, which occurs due to the increased pressure of the powder gases. Plus, this groove increases the reliability of sleeve extraction
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
5.45 is a great round Especially for a rifle Low recoil, great range, good accuracy 7.62x39 was developed as an improved SMG ammo While the 5.56 / 5.45 was more like a downloaded "rifle" cartridge Only problem with 5.45 is with short barrel guns No offence, I love the AKs 74u, but it's effectiveness is limited Granted it's development was not for a general purpose rifle, but what we now consider as a pdw
Take into consideration fact that not only were there vast stocks of 7.62 bullets in existence, the manufacturing investment to produce those rounds was quite significant. This is why the 7.92 ended up in a truncated 33m Kurz cartridge case and the 7.62 Soviet/Tzarist bullet ended up in the 39mm cartridge case. They are really rounds of convenience and quite "unbalanced" as a result. The British were spot on with their post-war .280 round for the EM-1 and EM-2. Had not the US Army overrode the European arms designers and manufacturers of the 1950s, including FN's FAL, which had its own proprietary ammunition and forced the introduction of the 7.62x51 NATO a new standard round would have developed for the Infantry of the Western armies. Everyone is now trying to capture the essence of the .280 British. The 6.5 Grendel looks very much like the .280 British
As Kalashnikov said 'The biggest challenge to Firearms designers are Ammuniton designers' (Maybe it was Eugene Stoner who said that idk, one said it to the other tho)
I've been fascinated with the RUSSO-UKR war for a number of reasons. One of them was trying to figure out why the Russians changed their Strategic Military Operations back to but retained the same caliber ( 5.45 ). A little off topic here but in-line with Kalashnikov himself ... After WW2 the Canadian Army wanted NATO to adopt the 7mm cartridge ( 284 caliber ). Canada has a long hunting tradition as comparable of that as the US. The British were on board but the US wanted the 5.56 ( 223 ). The British 303 was standard hunting rounds here in Canada, along with the necked down 7mm-308. It will take all medium sized game in North America saves grizzley's, kodiak's, and polar bears. The 7mm-08 cartridge is a 140 grain bullet that delivers as much energy down range as the 150 grain 308 and 30-06. It has a better BC than both and not as affected by windage and drag. It shoots flatter as well. The recoil is slightly more that the 243 but still good for new shooters. It has been overshadowed recently by the 6.5 Creedmore ( 260 caliber ). Again, the US dictates all terms within NATO: here we are 50 years later full circle back to what the original caliber should have been. There was nothing wrong with the FN-FAL or the G3. It was an excellent firearm. We could have saved millions of dollars on the retrofit if the decision was made to neck-down the 308. Hell .. take the 6.5 x 47 mm Lapua ... it's already developed and is a necked down NATO 7.62 !@#$ One further point, here we are ( yet again ) in the same territory as the 6.5 x 55 SE and the 7 x 57 mm cartridges all developed around the 1890's. My suspicion is that the Russians will adopt either the 6.7 x 45 or the 6.5 x 39 ( Grendel ). I think the Serbs have adopted the 6.5 Grendel. The 6.7 x 45 is the old Czech caliber. The question is now money. All said I think the Russians will opt for the 6.5 Grendel. No need for a new battle rifle. Thanks for reading !
Some of my guys are retired US special forces. And they said they only used AK’s in Afghanistan against the Taliban and Al-Queda. They told me they preferred the 7.62 AK over the 5.45 because 7.62 was more common then 5.45. They also told me the 5.45 is not very accurate.
Really, the main reasons the 7.62x39 was used originally was - The simplification of manufacturing. 7.62x54R, 7.62x39 and 7.62x25 all used the same initial drilling for Barrel. Only the reaming was done differently - The RPD, and SKS already used the 7.62x39 so it was a proven cartridge - Though originally meant to be used in an SMG role, it was later implemented to replace the role of rifle, carbine and SMG so the 7.62x39 loosely fit the roles. Jack of all trades sort of thing
Yea I thought I was tripping, older games I played such as James Bond Goldeneye the caliber for the cartridge was 7.62 then years later games like Stalker had AKM with 5.45 rounds. So they did change it.
" I just want to make evidently clear to all seeing the thumbnail, that is a Romanian AKM variant called the Pistol Mitraliera Model 1963 (PM md. 63). Arguably the best AK variant to date with it being used in many historical wars and near recent conflict. Goes to show how well respected it is that it can be just as easily mistaken for a soviet AK. "
A small offtopic: Considering what type of rifle US Army chose for tests, it really seems to me like the West is going back to battle rifles as their service weapons. Why it's that? Are military weapons evolving backwards or something? The cartridge of this rifle no longer seems to be the intermediate one, but almost full rifle one. Can someone actually explain it to me?
Just the changing landscape of warfare. 556 was invented for closer range encounters where a soldier has better chances with more controllable firepower. I guess with the war in Ukraine and others around the world the us is starting to see the need for more full power rifle cartridges
Idiocy. Every single assessment of weapons performance, for the past more than a century now has indicated smaller cartridges. You can carry more oven fire faster, with shorter splits between shots are more effective at winning fights, because he shoots first and shoots more usually wins. The US Army has an unhealthy obsession with this single shot rifleman myth, getting back 300 years, and it really gets in the way of realistic weapons development. We tried something like this back in the 1950s it was called the M14 and it failed horribly.
So these new cartridges are fundamentally different than those before it. They had to achieve a 50% increase in chamber pressure to get the desired external and terminal ballistics, and to do this the cartridges are made of mixed metal materials (iirc both steel and brass cases). This also changed the design of the rifles themselves because they had to reliably accommodate this massive increase in pressure.
Proliferation of body armor. The stainless casehead version of the 6.8x51 is running at 80000 psi pressure and can generate .270 rifle performance. 140 grain @2900 fps. 277 fury is an all brass case loaded at conventional pressures. And is much lower performance.
I still do not understand why the inventor of the AK-47 was so displeased with the new round yes the 762 does have a lot of power but it's slower and has less range the 5.45 has better accuracy and better range and when it hits a Target it does a lot more damage
Probably because he never had to carry a full combat load for long duration and fight on foot in basic infantry maneuvers. He was a tanker. He sat on his butt.
Mikhail Kalashnikov was a GENIUS! If he had been born in the USA he would have been a multimillionaire because of his invention. Instead the USSR gave him a few medals. He truly was a genius!
6 mm new round is good for rifles like Dragunov and it is far better than USA´s 6,8mm(it has very heavy recoil). However the original 5,45 is still the best choice for the average soldier who would use it under 300m distances almost every time....
Well no now given increases in optics, they'll actually be engaging at longer distances. They're not going to be designated marksmen, but prism optics give them more range than iron sights which is the pervious paradigm
@@buddermonger2000 Imagine yourself in Ukraine...., tall grass will not let you shoot in a good stabilised prone position, while standing you might get hit by enemy...and standing position is very unstable, so even with optick it would be hard to shoot accurately at longer distances while standing ...
@mirekslechta7161 I mean you're mostly in trenches and tree-lines. Which do actually let you get that. The biggest limitation on engagement distance is visibility. It's not that hard to shoot once you can see it in your rifle's sights. And you can stabilize on a tree.
We have a round called the 6.5 grendel and have for years. It fits in our AR/M4 platforms easily and is vastly more powerful than 5.56, with people very often shooting accurately past 800m. For something the size of a small carbine, that is unbeatable. And recoil does not matter if you train as you should.
The Soviets were impressed with the wounding characteristics of the US 5.56x45 M193 round used in Vietnam and decided that they needed a high velocity, small caliber round so they adopted the 5.45x39 in 1974.
Iv seen channels were people shoot 5.54x39 into clear gel blocks and the way the round acs in the gel is not only cool but the thought of being shot with one is in a way scary. Its a very very devastating round when hitting a live target
You can carry a lot more 5.56 or 5.45 than you can larger bullets. Most gunfights are at reasonably short ranges so the guy who gets there the firstest with the mostest is likely to win the day. Your 7.62 doesn't do much good if you are out of ammo and the American still has pockets full of 5.56 to spend the day plinking at you with.
O've seen literally zero (0) cases of war footage where the lighter ammo or having more of that ammo made a difference. Maybe in a desert. In Ukraine its pew pew and everyone is already dead. Its either 2-3 shots at target or 9001 shots at nothing. Arty and drones are used to keep heads down. Grenades when assaulting. 60 extra bullets are nice, but so are dead enemies and bullets not deflecting from smallest of brushes.
When Kalashnikov was interviewed many years later he laughed and said "because you did'". He indicated it was not his idea. Personally, I prefer shooting my 5.45. But I'm not at war.
@@waterzap99by having a proprietary calibre it would limit it's appeal in globalised world also China being so large it has a sense. Seems like the world is going back to the 19th century when so many nations had their own calibre
My guess is that Russia will go with either 6 mm or 6.5 mm x 39 for the new official cartridge. They will figure it all out in the testing, depending on the performance parameters required.
It's not a mistake, it's called 'adaptation' and 'experimentation'. Experimentation for most of the time didn't end in the lab and the testing field, it happened in the real-uncontrolled testing field. The solid evident of adaptation and experimentation we can see today is the Russian Turtle Tank. Sooner or later the 6mm cartridges will be obsolete and then they might come up with the new platform that chamber 7.62x54R or go wild with 9mm supersonic or wilder the Brandon Herrera's AK-50 Russian Edition chambering 12.7x108 or just entering sci-fi zone with laser weaponry or railgun. Something you invented and you think it's a masterpiece become obsolete 30 years later is no surprise unless it was something marvelous like the AKM and M1911
Not even every cheff uses single type of knife. So, various calibers have varous advantages and disadvantages, all tools for the right job with prefrence to each at different tasks.
It wasn't the maker from the AK-47 it was because of caption American life like the M16 using the 556 but the Russians want to use something similar smaller caliber especially it was a lot better later and you can carry a whole lot more than a 7.62 you could carry about double the amount of rounds the more ammunition the better you are off anyways
I'm going to put a copyright strike claim on all your videos using my footage if you don't give me credit. Multiple of your videos you have stolen my footage from my videos without permission or credit.
5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39 as well as 7.62 NATO aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Russia will learn the same thing the US has with the new 6.8 round. Sure it can defeat armor and theirs no question it performs all of those other calibers mentioned previously. But it is also extremely expensive. That is a problem because what makes 5.56 so viable is the tons of civilian AR's chambered in 5.56 that are also very affordable. This allows the military to tap into the civilian market with surplus to recoup cost. The new rifle probably won't be that cheap anytime soon and .277sig/6.8 Fury also won't be that cheap anytime soon. So, in short until the new caliber and guns become affordable the previous cartridges will still have life. Never forget 5.7x28 was supposed to be a wonder cartridge as well and it is if you can own a proper P90. But other then that it never really took off and is only really starting to get some traction in the US due the efforts of Kel-Tec, Ruger, Smith and Wesson, and PSA to make guns that fire it affordable. That in turn will make it more sought after which will let the economy of scale start to actually be a thing for it. Why is that important you ask? Militaries love it when they can save a buck due to others helping foot the bill. That's also just talking about the US military mainly. The Russian military is even more tight with it's purse strings.
The problem with armor piercing bullets is you need sufficient Kinetic energy and hardness of the bullets to penetrate modern armor. Which means you need heavy bullets and the mean to accelerate them as fast as possible. But there's a limit to how fast the bullets can be accelerated until it becomes too demanding for the gun barrels. This means to keep the speed at workable levels the bullets have to be heavy enough which means either using bigger bullets or making them out of tungsten. This is where the russian and western designers diverge. In the west they use tungsten to make the bullets heavier and harder but most dedicated russian armor piercing bullets are usually bigger bullets with a hardened steel tip like the subsonic 9×39 or 12.7×55. I think the Russian realized that using tungsten on a large scale is too expensive as tungsten is both expensive to produce and to machine. Putting hardened steel tips on 5.45 worked fine for the Russians seeing that you're gonna shoot a ton of them anyway and if you really need high penetrating power you might as well get a bigger gun, something that fires 7.62×54. Development in 5.7 almost stagnated. They already push the caliber to the limit but even as early as near the end of the cold war, armor that can withstand the highest penetration level of 5.7 was already available, at least in sufficient numbers for Russian paratroopers. The 5.7 simply lost its main purpose when armor that can stop it became more available.
In the 1980s the Chinese wanted to modernise their weapons. They got US weapons and the 5.56 mm NATO cartridge and compared them with the 5.45x.39 mm cartridge and the 7.62x39 mm cartridge and tested them. We know that there were complaints by Americans about the performance of the 5.56 mm cartridge during Vietnam and later on. The Chinese knew about the complaints from Vietnam because they're not that bad at intelligence gathering. If the 5.56 mm NATO cartridge had performance issues, so did the Soviet 5.45x39 mm cartridge. The Chinese didn't adopt either, they developed their own, the 5.8x42 mm, cartridge.
M43's speed makes it harder to hit with and bumping it up to 900 m/s will make the rifle too heavy and hard recoiling. Meanwhile 5,45 is starting to be too wimpy in the face of kevlar so adding a pair of grams to the bullet sounds like a good choice. MTK might not have been able to go on record in soviet times but he never said anything of the sort after as well. Remember that russians don't have the M249 problem as they use PKM in that role so there is no need for .277 fury class of cartridge. Also, subsonic 7.62x39 was replaced by 9x39.
It's not an error. If the ordinary conscript will ever use his rifle it would be for self-defense. It just should easy to shoot and to carry, penetrate some armor and ordinary cars. Stopping power is not an issue.
I foresee ammunition foul ups in the future Standardizing NATO cartridges assured that ammunition was compatible between armies. Old M14s were pulled out of storage and the actions were fitted onto modern synthetic stocks and put in service in Afghanistan; they needed the extra reach the 7.62x51 gave them. Ammunition was NOT an issue.
For the same reason Nato replaced the 7.62 with 5.56 for their battle rifle. You could carry more ammo for the same weight and their is less recoil when firing.
One reason why the Soviets decided to adopt a whole new assault rifle cartridge is 'cause what the US involvement during the Vietnam war during the 1960s caused with the M16,small caliber and high velocity(also small cal.causes soft or low impulse when fired on full automatic).Quoting from a firearms expert from a late 1990s tv documentary series about the history of assault rifles,"all firearms makers have same philosophy:small caliber light rifle short range"(during W.W.2 German troops experience most urban fire fights within 300 yards/meters). The Soviets saw what the M16 & its 5.56×45mm can do and thought,"we need to catch up and not to lag behind"
The 7.62* is a intermediate round that fires at approximately 2,347 feet per second at A Slightly curved ark resonating from the barrels trajectory. The change in in round was due to competition from nato. Fortunately the Soviet forefathers made More AKs and it’s corresponding round to match all the grains of sand on earth. Rendering the (arguably) modest 5.56 concentration properties negligible and not worth considering (don’t fix it if it ain’t broke).
Yes the 7.62 is superior, and even firearm companies in America have recently developed 6.8 Remington and 6.5 Creedmoor as marginal improvements to the standard 556 (they fit in STANAG rounds) and the .300 BLK is basically a 7.62x39. However, you can carry a lot more of 5.56 and 5.45 which is more important in general combat.
Thank you very much!) I am engaged in reviewing and interesting facts from the world of modern weapons, the period of the 20th-21st century. In addition, the deeper you go into history, the more difficult it is to find good shots, photos and videos to make a good picture, so it is unlikely that you will be able to implement this idea here
The new Russian cartridges all look interesting. I had a feeling they had 6.5 Grendal (6.5 x 39mm) lined up since it shares the same case as 7.62 x 39mm. But honestly, I'm curious to see what the 6.02 x 41mm does. But I think if they wanna keep up with the United States 6.8 x 51mm round, I think they're best bet lies with 6.7 x 45mm, or 6 x 49mm! Interested to see what these all do!
7.62x63mm? What havoc it can wreak Why invented? Because the Americans introduced the 5.56 caliber that's why Although the Russian caliber is smaller, it shatters much more, in many cases it also causes more serious injuries and the Russian projectile tends to turn around in the body, which causes even more serious wounds to the body or internal organs and has a range of about 300 meters longer than the 5.56x45mm caliber, but its stopping effect is somewhat a little bit weaker than the 5,56x45mm The Italian Cei-Rigotti semi-automatic or fully automatic rifle developed by the Italians in the 19th century was an epoch-making invention, mainly in the sense that it was only a rifle from the end of the 19th century that could shoot in automatic mode and was accurate up to 1400 meters. its firing range, which is not a small number, but the Italians did not deal with it because it was considered a small caliber and in this period the military was busy with developing as much stopping power and firepower as possible 6.5×52mm Carcano 7.65×53mm Mauser can also cause terrible destruction, which were the two calibers for Cei Rigotti (wasn't President Kennedy shot in Dallas with a Carcano rifle THEORETICALLY and his upper skull was torn off badly immediately, part of his brain was also torn off, which immediately caused him brain death, although the news of his death was only officially announced at around 11:00 AM, until then he was probably still physically alive it was possible, but it would have been impossible to bring him back to the ranks of the living, he was already brain dead when he was shot in the head, but in my opinion the assassination is quite confusing and unclear to this day) But there are certain situations where 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm is still better Although in the USA there is a lot of hostility towards Russia on TV and you can't even get a Russian-made weapon, every second American has an AK47 or an AK74. (the AR15 is much cheaper, but in general they ask a lot for an AK74, sometimes ridiculously much money in the USA, which is either American production under a European license or generally consists of Serbian, Hungarian, Romanian, or Kalashnikovs left over from the former Eastern Communist bloc that are converted into semi-automatic and they sell it in American gun shops to civilians. Basically, an AK47 is at least double the price of an AR15 in the USA) The only thing that is not understandable is the aftermarket orange polymer magazine for the Kalashnikov It's obviously a cheaper solution than a original metal one, but a good question is why it's orange when you can poke it out even at night in the dark and it looks pretty ugly Britney Spears' 6.8x51 gun and caliber will not be suitable in my opinion, because on the one hand, the gun is too big and this will result in a sniper war, and it is obvious that the gun is not suitable for continuous shooting, it is completely inaccurate
7.62 x 39 has been adopted before AK. SKS used that ammo and they were supposed to be a main assault riffle (while AK was supposed to be a light support machine gun)
A testament to how good the ak line of firearms are.
@@robertjones2811 More like that the evolution of the bolt action rifle to the self-loading rifle had a dead end and the new concept of a rifle-submachine gun hybrid (id est assault rifle) was the way forward.
Not quite. There was a similar cartridge before though.
AK was originally intended to fill the role of the SMG and the SKS of the main infantry rifle.
You kind of missed the part where the SKS and the 7.52x39 were already invented, meaning the AK had no real choice in what caliber to use.
Well, yes, I don't deny it) The AK was created for an existing cartridge (as always happens in the weapons industry). I just didn't talk about the SKS because the video would have become too loaded
while the AK entered service later than the SKS the SKS and AK were planned at the same time. orginally the soviet military wanted to standardise on one cartridge for both the rifle replacement (the SKS), the light machinegun replacement (the RPD) and the submachinegun replacement (the AK). note that the SKS was considered a carbine not a rifle, but it was the rifle replacement, and the AK was not considered a submachinegun, just the replacement of the submachine gun's tactical role. It was quickly discovered that the AK could do the role of a rifle just aswell as the SKS so they ended up replaceing the SKS too, the only reason the SKS had any service life was because it was developed early enough to enter production before the AK, which had a longer developement.
@@matthiuskoenig3378SKS was in production when the ak was still in design
@@huh-cb1rktrue but the concept of both guns were created at the same time. They just produced the sks first as it was originally meant to be the standard infantry rifle while the ak was to replace just the smg’s
What about the RPD?
I don't think the 5.56 or the 5.45mm cartridges are going away any time soon. Even if they don't penetrate newer body armors, if you are taking hits from either cartridge you will stop what you are doing and seek cover (while the guy shooting at you has a buddy call in artillery fire or sends a drone).
There are also no generally issued body armor systems that cover 100% of a soldier's body. IMO the armor penetration concern is overblown and the advantages of light weight and low recoil of the older cartridges still apply. Also, the US M-4 platform is lightweight, reliable and highly modular. It will continue to be used for a long time.
The US military will have replaced the 5.56 entirely by 2030. Is that "soon" enough?
-"They hated Jesus because he spoke the truth"
Anything powerful enough to reliably defeat armor without needless expensive tungsten ammo, would require something fairly unwieldy
>reliable
in clean condition
the 5.56 is still the most balance of them all, when it comes to cost, weight and effectiveness
Less recoil & Flatter shooting, you can carry more of it for the same weight. That is reason enough
Also more velocity 🤑🤑🤑
Also the magazines aren’t as bad to deal with especially if you have a front grip on one
Longer range. The AK47 sights go out to an optimistic 800m, but the round goes unstable at 400m and is an area of effect weapon beyond that. In Afghanistan, the Enfield rifles of the Mujahideen could safely engage Russian troops from a distance.
@@CR67iirc the mujahideen have a nickname for AK-74 too because of their performance
@@alaric_3015 I know they referred to the 5.45 bullet as the poisoned pill, because of its peculiar performance.
One note: The new russian calibre was not aksed for by the russian MOD. Its a project by Tula (they developed the round and Kalshnikov (they developed the rifle for it). This does not mean that the russian army will be equip with ether the round or the AK-22
testing it, like usa is still testing.
6.8 gun and ammo might be deemed as too heavy, for individual soldier, and for logistics purposes.
caliber. fiber. tire.
The soviets made the switch to 5.45mm when they recieved captured m16s from veitnan. Thought the americans were on the something. Mikail kalasnikov opposed the 5.45mm and wanted to improve the 7.62x39mm
7.62x39 was just them copying 8mm Kurtz
It was the fal rifle was originally chambered for 7.92x33
The Yugoslavs did improve the 7.62x39 a bit when they introduced their M67 ball, which had a hollow cavity in the tip underneath the jacket which allowed the bullet to tumble much sooner after penetration. However the USSR stuck with the mild steel core M43 ball for a long time even after the Yugoslavs introduced the M67 ball. This same hollow cavity is what allows the 5.45 to tumble so rapidly as well, whereas 5.56 relies on velocity for fragmentation in flesh. Some Russian manufacturers began using M67 ball post-1991 in 7.62x39.
Which as everyone knows the greatest advantage to using the smaller 5.45/5.56/5.8 is that a soldier can carry twice as much ammo, and in most battlefield situations it has been shown that each individual soldier being able to carry twice as much of a less powerful cartridge is more effective than a soldier carrying fewer of a more powerful cartridge.
@@FinalFront yugoslav ammo was alway a favorite of mine, wether fired from my mausers or AK. Way better then the steel and laqured soviet ammo. I still have a ton of it too.
The Russians and in turn the Soviets already though had what was considered an intermediate round. They had the Fedorov Avtomat in 6.5 Japanese.
Japan didn't consider that round big enough, at least for bolt actions, which is why they came up with the 7.7 Japanese.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513
There was an episode of History Channel's "Tales Of The Gun" where Kalashnikov states that he was against the adoption of the 5.45mm.
But this was in the early 2000's, way after the fall of the USSR...
Yes. The clip they used was a video from the 90s where Eugene Stoner, AR-15/M16 inventor, met Mikhail Kalashnikov and talked about their respective weapons and the reasons any changes where made. Kalashnikov has also voiced his disagreement to switch calibers but as a loyal Soviet citizen he changed his design to meet his nations requirements.
@@JoyZofSoRRoW What video?
@DTinkerer it's on the history channel
The channel that shows spooky and conspiracy stories, instead of actual history?
@@jdsheleg8332 it used to be different in the 90's and early 2000's. But yeah, that one. 😆
Kinetic energy is more about speed than mass...
"Speed kills armor"
The struggle for all armies around the world is to find a cartridge/caliber that can do everything a little bit. Long, accurate range, reliability, ease of manufacture, lighter recoil, penetration power and cost effective. The 5.56mm NATO round is good for short range engagements against enemy personnel, but that is all. 7.62mm NATO is better suited for longer range engagements and lightly armoured vehicles. Everyone is trying to find the "magic" caliber, if there is such a one. Thanks for this video.
Kind of shows when the US Army when to the new rifle with a 6.8 cartridge, making it between the 7.62 and the 5.56. Rifle aside, sounds like somewhere between those two might suit that “do it all” round.
It's funny. The us switched to 30 06 because supposedly the 30 40 krag sucked vs the 7mm mauser. Then the 7.62x51 comes along which is like a glorified 30 40 krag. Then everything goes out the window and the 5.56 is standard. And now full circle with the 6.8 thing probably not much different than a 7mm mauser used in ww1.
Damn 100 years of gun technology just to circle back to low power rifle rounds. Federov Awtomat next-gen gun lmao
For man-handled arms, the 5.56 NATO is more than sufficient, even with the M249 SAW. The 7.62 x 51 is suitable for a sniper rifle, but also heavier crew-served automatic weapons.
@@TH-camPrimer-zm1xi thats because it did. fun fact the 30-06 is 7mm mauser, because the m1903 springfield is a stolen mauser rifle, so they thought "were already stealing the designs of the rifle, might as well steal the round".
another fun fact, mauser later sued the US government because they were using stolen tech in 1914 i believe. so when war broke out the court case was sidelined, and the US took the patients given to them for the court case and stole everything else they could get their hands on. and after the war settled with a million dollar settlement after the war.
Great video 👍 6mm ARC, 6mm MAX, and especially 6.5 Grendel are all great cartridges sold primarily in the US market for AR-15 caliber conversions, but all of the above would be better suited in an AK pattern due to the larger neccessary bolt face diameter and the proper magazine curvature geometry... I think Serbia adopted 6.5G AK pattern systems for some type of sizeable contract for either their military or police, but I'm surprised more countries haven't been slowly working towards this goal... It's kind of the best of both worlds between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39, besting both without sacrificing much of anything besides a slightly higher cartridge weight that 5.45, but not 7.62x39. Although the AK platform isn't quite as modular as an AR-15, a bolt, barrel, recoil spring, and magazine are fairly easy items to reconfigure even in an AK once the decision is made to produce the new tooling... Plus Serbia and Russia (among others) already have 6.5G in production, so there isn't much need for load development or case/projectile designs as its already been done. Ammunition production line changes aren't extreme when compared to something that is much longer, or extremely high pressure, so tooling up ammo production wouldn't be prohibitively expensive... But I also understand the classic argument of hundreds of millions of cartridges already existing so why change for what on a modern battlefield is becoming more of a personal defense weapon while supporting more powerful beltfed MGs, high payload systems from automatic grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, guided munitions, drones, aircraft or vehicle mounted systems with high payload capabilties and autocannons... Do you really NEED a more powerful, flatter shooting, standard issue cartridge that does only slightly better at barrier or very very light armor penetration for the cost of the logistics involved? (like helmets or woven material, not hard plates) I mean it would 100% be beneficial, but I can see why most replacement cartridge programs "fail" or atleast have limited adoption, especially in a time of conflict or very likely conflicts on the horizon... But I'd take one of these new intermediate cartridges for a standard issue carbine any day over the stupid 6.8 NGSW round! That cartridge only makes sense for beltfed MGs, designated marksman rifles, or other special purpose uses, not a standard issue "carbine" cartridge! Which I'm sure is where it will end up assuming it actually gets adopted in any sizeable numbers in the near future...
I think Serbia actually did it with normal 6.5 Grendel
@@buddermonger2000 Zestava M19. Excellent rifle.
@@buddermonger2000smart. It’s an awesome cartridge.
Yup I believe you are 100% correct in the assumption of the new US cartridge be used only in a specialty role in the infantry squad as a dedicated marksman.
I am an ex Army Infantry officer and avid firearms Instructor and hobbyist for decades.
That new round would burn up barrels at an alarming rate in combat, rendering a huge logistical nightmare and down time.
I wouldn’t want to be shot with either
Only sensible comment here!
i do not want someone to throw them at me LOL
I wouldn't want to be shot by a water pistol.
I know Serbia adopted a variant of the 6.5 Grendel. A souped up version of the 6.5 Grendel with a 7n6 sort of bullet would be interesting to see.
Creedmoor
My grendel shoots just as flat to be honest
@@encompassthyeclipse7278I think the creedmore is too large, more like a special force round
@@encompassthyeclipse7278creedmore is excellent, but wears too much barrel and it is expensive.
@@MrSuba47the Japanese in WW2 used 6.5 variant.
It was reportedly going right through Americans with little deformation/trauma due to it being to aerodynamic.
The navy likewise used a 6.5 to punch through the hulls of lightly armored ships. Apparently the same issues with lethality came up
The 6x41 is a much better do-it-all cartridge. I was very disappointed that they chose a battle rifle cartridge again, instead of a high performance intermediate cartridge
"It's not the size, it's how you use it" 😅
Always good to see you upload
Fallschirmjägergewehr 42
In 1942 the Germans launched the FG 42. It has selective fire control, semi and full auto. It fires the 7.92×57mm Mauser - a full-power rifle cartridge. The FG 42 is also known for its accuracy and controllability. It is possible to make an assault rifle (or combat rifle), firing full-power cartridges, if one is willing to look in the right places.
Correct, but you're forgetting several major things about the FG-42 that make it suboptimal as an assault rifle: One, the FG-42 was only supposed to fire in single shot or short bursts. If you tried to use an FG for sustained fire like an LMG, the weapon's gas system would effectively destroy itself, and even the Germans were aware of this when creating training manuals. Two, the FG weighs 5 pounds (or 4-5 kilos), whereas an AKM weighs pounds/3 kilograms, or an M4 carbine which weighs 6.5 pounds/3 kilos. That doesn't sound like a lot, but for an assault rifle that's very heavy, which actually makes it a bit of a surprise for me that it was only used by paratroopers.
Three, assault rifles are *by definition* chambered for intermediate cartridges, not to mention the FG was used more as a light support weapon than a proper infantry. The FG-42 would more likely be classified as automatic rifle, similar to guns like the BAR, Chauchat, or Fedorov-Avtomat. And finally, as noted in the video, militaries didn't *want* a standard combat rifle to use full-power cartridges, that's kind of the whole point. If they really did want to standardize on a battle rifle, NATO could easily have just stuck to the FN FAL or M14 (which there are modernized versions of), and these rifles do get used as DMRs, but they're not standard issue for a reason. Even the US's new .277 Fury round is sort of an intermediate between full-power and true intermediate cartridges.
You’re probably the only English speaking channel that talks about Russian military topics and equipment without bashing or simply barfing US propaganda. Good job!
The case length needs to be longer than just 41mm. Something like 44mm or 45mm sounds better. A longer, thinner cartridge is better than a wider, shorter one too. That allows more ammo to be fit into a magazine.
a thinner cartridge is worse for suppression since longer dwell times
Longer cartridges actually introduce their own set of problems, since the action needs to be longer in order to cycle and eject with a longer cartridge.
For example, the US specifically switched from the 30-06 cartridge to .308 because they could get very similar performance out of a much shorter cartridge, which gave them more options when it comes to rifle design, since the action can now be over 1cm shorter.
@@random.3665you can definitely tell the difference between 06 and 308 when hunting that’s for sure. I stand by my 30-06s, never shot a 308 I liked
@@encompassthyeclipse7278modern commercial 30-06 is much more powerful than the traditional military stuff from 100 years ago. When they shortened it to make 7.62 NATO a different powder formula for at gave it similar performance to the original 30-06 despite the smaller case volume
Worse for feeding and close combat but better for long range and usually lighter if it's a .22 cal bullet
2:17 a rifle with the two magazines of ammunition, classic meme
With many nation states are investing in proper body armor for their troops, it's really only a matter of time before we start inventing Bolt guns.
No, but we are starting to see a rise of semi auto DMR rifles using full powered rifles rounds for a similar reason, and because of the growing range in modern combat.
@@kyoMcMushy didn't those basically already exist but were called battlerifles?
There is a Chinese sniper grenade launcher. It's a proto bolter.
@@constantinethecataphract5949 battle rifles are different to DMRs. They can overlap but battle rifles such as the SCAR H, G3 FAL, and many AR-10 configurations are basically used in the same way modern intermediate rifles are used. intended for close to medium range.
*XM7 has entered the chat*
Many thanks for the quite interesting overview. Probably there must be a separation between submachine guns - carbines and line army weapons or those for special operations. The 7,62 calibre is a reliable solution, and it is the only factor of sa 10 further ones to decide a military conflict.
Paul,68
In the new age of drone warfare, the combat distance has extended. So moving back to a higher calibre now makes sense, when the effective range of rifles needs to be longer than before. That is to say, in an environment dominated by artillery and FPV drones, close quarters and house-to-house fighting between infantry is much rarer, because the question of who can occupy the ground tends to be determined before soldiers can come that close.
As an ex serbian infantry soldier...I was once handed the AK74...served me well and usually hit what I wanted it to hit without beating me up too much. Then i was handed the AK74M and i was in love with 5.45
6:12 nice catridges
Pay attention to the 6x49 cartridge. It has an interesting detail - an additional groove at the bottom of the sleeve. This design allows you to counteract the stretching of the metal, which occurs due to the increased pressure of the powder gases. Plus, this groove increases the reliability of sleeve extraction
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
As far as I know that cartridge was made by the USSR in the late 80's, curiously was not the only one, the flechette PKM also was made, 11,5x54R, smooth barrel PKM that can sustain way more fire than the conventional, it was scrapped after the collapse, but...
I was unaware that the reds have made a similar 6.8 round . Thanks guys , good information
They “reds” don’t exist anymore and haven’t since 1991
Lol dude Russia haven’t been red since 1991
@@Kazako83 I disagree. The mentality is ever present
Great video! I love your channel man, it’s really good 👌🏼💯
Thank you!)
5.45 is a great round
Especially for a rifle
Low recoil, great range, good accuracy
7.62x39 was developed as an improved SMG ammo
While the 5.56 / 5.45 was more like a downloaded "rifle" cartridge
Only problem with 5.45 is with short barrel guns
No offence, I love the AKs 74u, but it's effectiveness is limited
Granted it's development was not for a general purpose rifle, but what we now consider as a pdw
Take into consideration fact that not only were there vast stocks of 7.62 bullets in existence, the manufacturing investment to produce those rounds was quite significant. This is why the 7.92 ended up in a truncated 33m Kurz cartridge case and the 7.62 Soviet/Tzarist bullet ended up in the 39mm cartridge case. They are really rounds of convenience and quite "unbalanced" as a result. The British were spot on with their post-war .280 round for the EM-1 and EM-2. Had not the US Army overrode the European arms designers and manufacturers of the 1950s, including FN's FAL, which had its own proprietary ammunition and forced the introduction of the 7.62x51 NATO a new standard round would have developed for the Infantry of the Western armies. Everyone is now trying to capture the essence of the .280 British. The 6.5 Grendel looks very much like the .280 British
6mm is the Goldielox caliber.
who knew airsoft is the real best combat caliber xD. fun fact: the KAC PDW was an AR pattern SBR chambered in 6mm that never made it past prototype.
glad to see my boy oxide in your vid, absolute kino footage
Looks like a sort of return of battle rifle cartridges
Nah, these are intermediate. Look at the case length, 41mm, that's still intermediate.
Battle diameter. Assault length
@@andrewgates8158 Remember that pistol diameter is larger than rifle diameter
@buddermonger2000 but velocity is sucky vs a rifle
@@andrewgates8158 Yeah but it's just to illustrate that the diameter really has nothing to do regarding the caliber type
The second magazine in the handguard has to be the silliest concept i've ever seen.
Yeah but it kept Soviet Engineers on a project.
As Kalashnikov said 'The biggest challenge to Firearms designers are Ammuniton designers' (Maybe it was Eugene Stoner who said that idk, one said it to the other tho)
The universal mystery of firearms development is the question about which came first, the gun or the cartridge.
AKM /AK-74 is 16 inch barrel rifle
7,62x39 is good for short barrel rifle (10 inch)
5,56/5,45 for long barrel (16-20 inch)
I've been fascinated with the RUSSO-UKR war for a number of reasons. One of them was trying to figure out why the Russians changed their Strategic Military Operations back to but retained the same caliber ( 5.45 ).
A little off topic here but in-line with Kalashnikov himself ...
After WW2 the Canadian Army wanted NATO to adopt the 7mm cartridge ( 284 caliber ). Canada has a long hunting tradition as comparable of that as the US. The British were on board but the US wanted the 5.56 ( 223 ). The British 303 was standard hunting rounds here in Canada, along with the necked down 7mm-308. It will take all medium sized game in North America saves grizzley's, kodiak's, and polar bears.
The 7mm-08 cartridge is a 140 grain bullet that delivers as much energy down range as the 150 grain 308 and 30-06. It has a better BC than both and not as affected by windage and drag. It shoots flatter as well. The recoil is slightly more that the 243 but still good for new shooters.
It has been overshadowed recently by the 6.5 Creedmore ( 260 caliber ). Again, the US dictates all terms within NATO: here we are 50 years later full circle back to what the original caliber should have been. There was nothing wrong with the FN-FAL or the G3. It was an excellent firearm. We could have saved millions of dollars on the retrofit if the decision was made to neck-down the 308. Hell .. take the 6.5 x 47 mm Lapua ... it's already developed and is a necked down NATO 7.62 !@#$
One further point, here we are ( yet again ) in the same territory as the 6.5 x 55 SE and the 7 x 57 mm cartridges all developed around the 1890's.
My suspicion is that the Russians will adopt either the 6.7 x 45 or the 6.5 x 39 ( Grendel ). I think the Serbs have adopted the 6.5 Grendel. The 6.7 x 45 is the old Czech caliber. The question is now money. All said I think the Russians will opt for the 6.5 Grendel. No need for a new battle rifle.
Thanks for reading !
At 400m range the targets is only half the size of your last fingernail. Target will be hard to hit without rifle-scope.
Some of my guys are retired US special forces. And they said they only used AK’s in Afghanistan against the Taliban and Al-Queda. They told me they preferred the 7.62 AK over the 5.45 because 7.62 was more common then 5.45. They also told me the 5.45 is not very accurate.
Really, the main reasons the 7.62x39 was used originally was
- The simplification of manufacturing. 7.62x54R, 7.62x39 and 7.62x25 all used the same initial drilling for Barrel. Only the reaming was done differently
- The RPD, and SKS already used the 7.62x39 so it was a proven cartridge
- Though originally meant to be used in an SMG role, it was later implemented to replace the role of rifle, carbine and SMG so the 7.62x39 loosely fit the roles. Jack of all trades sort of thing
I wonder if .32 ACP being popular amongst some Warsaw Pact countries was done for the same reason.
The SKS was still widely produced and issued. Not every Soviet trooper needed a select-fire weapon.
Yea I thought I was tripping, older games I played such as James Bond Goldeneye the caliber for the cartridge was 7.62 then years later games like Stalker had AKM with 5.45 rounds. So they did change it.
"
I just want to make evidently clear to all seeing the thumbnail, that is a Romanian AKM variant called the Pistol Mitraliera Model 1963 (PM md. 63). Arguably the best AK variant to date with it being used in many historical wars and near recent conflict. Goes to show how well respected it is that it can be just as easily mistaken for a soviet AK.
"
A small offtopic: Considering what type of rifle US Army chose for tests, it really seems to me like the West is going back to battle rifles as their service weapons. Why it's that? Are military weapons evolving backwards or something? The cartridge of this rifle no longer seems to be the intermediate one, but almost full rifle one. Can someone actually explain it to me?
Just the changing landscape of warfare. 556 was invented for closer range encounters where a soldier has better chances with more controllable firepower. I guess with the war in Ukraine and others around the world the us is starting to see the need for more full power rifle cartridges
Idiocy. Every single assessment of weapons performance, for the past more than a century now has indicated smaller cartridges. You can carry more oven fire faster, with shorter splits between shots are more effective at winning fights, because he shoots first and shoots more usually wins.
The US Army has an unhealthy obsession with this single shot rifleman myth, getting back 300 years, and it really gets in the way of realistic weapons development.
We tried something like this back in the 1950s it was called the M14 and it failed horribly.
@@Mortabluntthey are preparing for a new type of war
Counter insurgency and cqb are being replaced
Ww3 is looming
So these new cartridges are fundamentally different than those before it. They had to achieve a 50% increase in chamber pressure to get the desired external and terminal ballistics, and to do this the cartridges are made of mixed metal materials (iirc both steel and brass cases). This also changed the design of the rifles themselves because they had to reliably accommodate this massive increase in pressure.
Proliferation of body armor. The stainless casehead version of the 6.8x51 is running at 80000 psi pressure and can generate .270 rifle performance. 140 grain @2900 fps. 277 fury is an all brass case loaded at conventional pressures. And is much lower performance.
Amazing video
Thank you!)
I still do not understand why the inventor of the AK-47 was so displeased with the new round yes the 762 does have a lot of power but it's slower and has less range the 5.45 has better accuracy and better range and when it hits a Target it does a lot more damage
I guess the 5.45 tumbles more after it hits , making it more lethal
Besides, why would he be concerned with which caliber the gun would fire? He invented the AK but the caliber wasn't chosen by him.
Probably because he never had to carry a full combat load for long duration and fight on foot in basic infantry maneuvers. He was a tanker. He sat on his butt.
I would've liked a credit for using my videos
Of course!) I'll do it within a week
@@casperarms Still not done?
Hi! I added 50% of all video credits in the description, including to your channel ✨ I will finish most of the videos in the coming days
Mikhail Kalashnikov was a GENIUS! If he had been born in the USA he would have been a multimillionaire because of his invention. Instead the USSR gave him a few medals. He truly was a genius!
The truth is the Soviet changed caliber because the one guy in charge of making them died and no one knew how he was doing it.
😂
6 mm new round is good for rifles like Dragunov and it is far better than USA´s 6,8mm(it has very heavy recoil). However the original 5,45 is still the best choice for the average soldier who would use it under 300m distances almost every time....
Well no now given increases in optics, they'll actually be engaging at longer distances. They're not going to be designated marksmen, but prism optics give them more range than iron sights which is the pervious paradigm
@@buddermonger2000 Imagine yourself in Ukraine...., tall grass will not let you shoot in a good stabilised prone position, while standing you might get hit by enemy...and standing position is very unstable, so even with optick it would be hard to shoot accurately at longer distances while standing ...
@mirekslechta7161 I mean you're mostly in trenches and tree-lines. Which do actually let you get that. The biggest limitation on engagement distance is visibility. It's not that hard to shoot once you can see it in your rifle's sights. And you can stabilize on a tree.
We have a round called the 6.5 grendel and have for years. It fits in our AR/M4 platforms easily and is vastly more powerful than 5.56, with people very often shooting accurately past 800m. For something the size of a small carbine, that is unbeatable. And recoil does not matter if you train as you should.
Good video 👍
The Soviets were impressed with the wounding characteristics of the US 5.56x45 M193 round used in Vietnam and decided that they needed a high velocity, small caliber round so they adopted the 5.45x39 in 1974.
Iv seen channels were people shoot 5.54x39 into clear gel blocks and the way the round acs in the gel is not only cool but the thought of being shot with one is in a way scary. Its a very very devastating round when hitting a live target
You can carry a lot more 5.56 or 5.45 than you can larger bullets. Most gunfights are at reasonably short ranges so the guy who gets there the firstest with the mostest is likely to win the day. Your 7.62 doesn't do much good if you are out of ammo and the American still has pockets full of 5.56 to spend the day plinking at you with.
Geography and purpose play more of a role armies are rigid by nature be glad you are not an army
"Get there first with the most" - N.B.F.
O've seen literally zero (0) cases of war footage where the lighter ammo or having more of that ammo made a difference.
Maybe in a desert.
In Ukraine its pew pew and everyone is already dead. Its either 2-3 shots at target or 9001 shots at nothing.
Arty and drones are used to keep heads down. Grenades when assaulting. 60 extra bullets are nice, but so are dead enemies and bullets not deflecting from smallest of brushes.
When Kalashnikov was interviewed many years later he laughed and said "because you did'". He indicated it was not his idea. Personally, I prefer shooting my 5.45. But I'm not at war.
Very interesting video
Similar to the oddball round the Chinese use.
They use that oddball cartridge because the officers were selling off their stocks of Ak ammo. Shocking. I know.
@@waterzap99by having a proprietary calibre it would limit it's appeal in globalised world also China being so large it has a sense. Seems like the world is going back to the 19th century when so many nations had their own calibre
@waterzap99 the Chinese wanted a 5.8 round since the 80s. It just took them awhile because the type 81 wasn't really cutting it.
My guess is that Russia will go with either 6 mm or 6.5 mm x 39 for the new official cartridge. They will figure it all out in the testing, depending on the performance parameters required.
"What new caliber did they use to replace it?"
Well I hope not those darts. Lol
It's not a mistake, it's called 'adaptation' and 'experimentation'. Experimentation for most of the time didn't end in the lab and the testing field, it happened in the real-uncontrolled testing field. The solid evident of adaptation and experimentation we can see today is the Russian Turtle Tank. Sooner or later the 6mm cartridges will be obsolete and then they might come up with the new platform that chamber 7.62x54R or go wild with 9mm supersonic or wilder the Brandon Herrera's AK-50 Russian Edition chambering 12.7x108 or just entering sci-fi zone with laser weaponry or railgun. Something you invented and you think it's a masterpiece become obsolete 30 years later is no surprise unless it was something marvelous like the AKM and M1911
1:34 YOUNG ALEX JONES
Also it wasn't replaced by 5.45. it was simply added to the current range
VERY interesting--thanks!
Not even every cheff uses single type of knife.
So, various calibers have varous advantages and disadvantages, all tools for the right job with prefrence to each at different tasks.
It's the case when Ivan hasn't been paying attention during English lessons!!!
It wasn't the maker from the AK-47 it was because of caption American life like the M16 using the 556 but the Russians want to use something similar smaller caliber especially it was a lot better later and you can carry a whole lot more than a 7.62 you could carry about double the amount of rounds the more ammunition the better you are off anyways
Chrome lining is for protection from corrosion and to make it easier to clean. Has nothing to do with using cartridges of 5.6 diameter.
I'm going to put a copyright strike claim on all your videos using my footage if you don't give me credit. Multiple of your videos you have stolen my footage from my videos without permission or credit.
Um… your videos are literally listed in my descriptions…
5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39 as well as 7.62 NATO aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Russia will learn the same thing the US has with the new 6.8 round. Sure it can defeat armor and theirs no question it performs all of those other calibers mentioned previously. But it is also extremely expensive. That is a problem because what makes 5.56 so viable is the tons of civilian AR's chambered in 5.56 that are also very affordable. This allows the military to tap into the civilian market with surplus to recoup cost. The new rifle probably won't be that cheap anytime soon and .277sig/6.8 Fury also won't be that cheap anytime soon. So, in short until the new caliber and guns become affordable the previous cartridges will still have life.
Never forget 5.7x28 was supposed to be a wonder cartridge as well and it is if you can own a proper P90. But other then that it never really took off and is only really starting to get some traction in the US due the efforts of Kel-Tec, Ruger, Smith and Wesson, and PSA to make guns that fire it affordable. That in turn will make it more sought after which will let the economy of scale start to actually be a thing for it. Why is that important you ask? Militaries love it when they can save a buck due to others helping foot the bill. That's also just talking about the US military mainly. The Russian military is even more tight with it's purse strings.
The problem with armor piercing bullets is you need sufficient Kinetic energy and hardness of the bullets to penetrate modern armor. Which means you need heavy bullets and the mean to accelerate them as fast as possible. But there's a limit to how fast the bullets can be accelerated until it becomes too demanding for the gun barrels. This means to keep the speed at workable levels the bullets have to be heavy enough which means either using bigger bullets or making them out of tungsten. This is where the russian and western designers diverge. In the west they use tungsten to make the bullets heavier and harder but most dedicated russian armor piercing bullets are usually bigger bullets with a hardened steel tip like the subsonic 9×39 or 12.7×55. I think the Russian realized that using tungsten on a large scale is too expensive as tungsten is both expensive to produce and to machine. Putting hardened steel tips on 5.45 worked fine for the Russians seeing that you're gonna shoot a ton of them anyway and if you really need high penetrating power you might as well get a bigger gun, something that fires 7.62×54.
Development in 5.7 almost stagnated. They already push the caliber to the limit but even as early as near the end of the cold war, armor that can withstand the highest penetration level of 5.7 was already available, at least in sufficient numbers for Russian paratroopers. The 5.7 simply lost its main purpose when armor that can stop it became more available.
As far as armor penetration faster and smaller are better. 6.5x39 sounds a lot like like 6.5 Grendel which is not exactly new.
Great videos... Just make them longer ! And how about some videos on Russian Pistols, Russian GunSmith's -- THEN & NOW 👍
In the 1980s the Chinese wanted to modernise their weapons. They got US weapons and the 5.56 mm NATO cartridge and compared them with the 5.45x.39 mm cartridge and the 7.62x39 mm cartridge and tested them. We know that there were complaints by Americans about the performance of the 5.56 mm cartridge during Vietnam and later on. The Chinese knew about the complaints from Vietnam because they're not that bad at intelligence gathering. If the 5.56 mm NATO cartridge had performance issues, so did the Soviet 5.45x39 mm cartridge. The Chinese didn't adopt either, they developed their own, the 5.8x42 mm, cartridge.
African countrys like M43 ammo nowadays 😊
M43's speed makes it harder to hit with and bumping it up to 900 m/s will make the rifle too heavy and hard recoiling. Meanwhile 5,45 is starting to be too wimpy in the face of kevlar so adding a pair of grams to the bullet sounds like a good choice.
MTK might not have been able to go on record in soviet times but he never said anything of the sort after as well.
Remember that russians don't have the M249 problem as they use PKM in that role so there is no need for .277 fury class of cartridge.
Also, subsonic 7.62x39 was replaced by 9x39.
That is the question!
Can you make more videos about uniforms soviet and russian and equipment related to it? Curret war in ukraine makes it really complicated.
Fascinating.
Hello and welcome to forgotten weapons.
It's not an error. If the ordinary conscript will ever use his rifle it would be for self-defense. It just should easy to shoot and to carry, penetrate some armor and ordinary cars. Stopping power is not an issue.
I foresee ammunition foul ups in the future
Standardizing NATO cartridges assured that ammunition was compatible between armies.
Old M14s were pulled out of storage and the actions were fitted onto modern synthetic stocks and put in service in Afghanistan; they needed the extra reach the 7.62x51 gave them. Ammunition was NOT an issue.
For the same reason Nato replaced the 7.62 with 5.56 for their battle rifle. You could carry more ammo for the same weight and their is less recoil when firing.
There is still so much that 30 caliber can do and the round can be made hotter/faster
ah yes, battle rifles worked out so well
I thought they settled on the 227 FURY
That's sig saur new rifle for US army
The military designation for 277 fury is 6.8x51mm.
One reason why the Soviets decided to adopt a whole new assault rifle cartridge is 'cause what the US involvement during the Vietnam war during the 1960s caused with the M16,small caliber and high velocity(also small cal.causes soft or low impulse when fired on full automatic).Quoting from a firearms expert from a late 1990s tv documentary series about the history of assault rifles,"all firearms makers have same philosophy:small caliber light rifle short range"(during W.W.2 German troops experience most urban fire fights within 300 yards/meters).
The Soviets saw what the M16 & its 5.56×45mm can do and thought,"we need to catch up and not to lag behind"
Excelente . Gracias.
The 7.62* is a intermediate round that fires at approximately 2,347 feet per second at
A
Slightly curved ark resonating from the barrels trajectory.
The change in in round was due to competition from nato.
Fortunately the Soviet forefathers made
More
AKs and it’s corresponding round to match all the grains of sand on earth.
Rendering the (arguably) modest 5.56 concentration properties negligible and not worth considering (don’t fix it if it ain’t broke).
The 8mm kurz was almost the FAL round until NATO selected the 7.62x51mm round, and I own a FAL love that rifle
best part of the video- loading the D30 at 6:09.
What difference does it make? If it goes boom and the soldier is capable of hitting something then????
If the other soldier can blow through your armor and hit you from farther away while you can do neither, it makes a huge difference
Yes the 7.62 is superior, and even firearm companies in America have recently developed 6.8 Remington and 6.5 Creedmoor as marginal improvements to the standard 556 (they fit in STANAG rounds) and the .300 BLK is basically a 7.62x39.
However, you can carry a lot more of 5.56 and 5.45 which is more important in general combat.
So.... they developed their own version of 6mmARC... hm....seems like a good choice actually
7.62 means you never have to say sorry.
Unless they have armor... 😂
Title - about Russians
Thumbnail - Romanian Pm md. 65
So tell me bout Soviet Union
@@dipteshish Romania was never a part of the USSR.
That new battle rifle DC approved will never replace the intermediate ar.
Russian engineers working now on new round..6.02×41.
Reason of 5.45 was simply responding to NATO 5.56..
Hey,this video was very nice. Could you make a video on muskets and more specifically about their production in imperial russia
Thank you very much!) I am engaged in reviewing and interesting facts from the world of modern weapons, the period of the 20th-21st century. In addition, the deeper you go into history, the more difficult it is to find good shots, photos and videos to make a good picture, so it is unlikely that you will be able to implement this idea here
@@casperarms still thank you very much for taking the time to respond.😊
The AK is still one of the best rifles ever created
Excellent
Never replaced
The new Russian cartridges all look interesting. I had a feeling they had 6.5 Grendal (6.5 x 39mm) lined up since it shares the same case as 7.62 x 39mm. But honestly, I'm curious to see what the 6.02 x 41mm does. But I think if they wanna keep up with the United States 6.8 x 51mm round, I think they're best bet lies with 6.7 x 45mm, or 6 x 49mm! Interested to see what these all do!
It will be 50bmg. They contracted Brandon heraiara to make it
😅😅
Hahaha!
What do you think about the 8.6 with 1 turn in 3 ? Pretty spectacular in gel .
7.62x63mm? What havoc it can wreak
Why invented? Because the Americans introduced the 5.56 caliber that's why
Although the Russian caliber is smaller, it shatters much more, in many cases it also causes more serious injuries and the Russian projectile tends to turn around in the body, which causes even more serious wounds to the body or internal organs and has a range of about 300 meters longer than the 5.56x45mm caliber, but its stopping effect is somewhat a little bit weaker than the 5,56x45mm
The Italian Cei-Rigotti semi-automatic or fully automatic rifle developed by the Italians in the 19th century was an epoch-making invention, mainly in the sense that it was only a rifle from the end of the 19th century that could shoot in automatic mode and was accurate up to 1400 meters. its firing range, which is not a small number, but the Italians did not deal with it because it was considered a small caliber and in this period the military was busy with developing as much stopping power and firepower as possible
6.5×52mm Carcano 7.65×53mm Mauser can also cause terrible destruction, which were the two calibers for Cei Rigotti
(wasn't President Kennedy shot in Dallas with a Carcano rifle THEORETICALLY and his upper skull was torn off badly immediately, part of his brain was also torn off, which immediately caused him brain death, although the news of his death was only officially announced at around 11:00 AM, until then he was probably still physically alive it was possible, but it would have been impossible to bring him back to the ranks of the living, he was already brain dead when he was shot in the head, but in my opinion the assassination is quite confusing and unclear to this day)
But there are certain situations where 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm is still better
Although in the USA there is a lot of hostility towards Russia on TV and you can't even get a Russian-made weapon, every second American has an AK47 or an AK74.
(the AR15 is much cheaper, but in general they ask a lot for an AK74, sometimes ridiculously much money in the USA, which is either American production under a European license or generally consists of Serbian, Hungarian, Romanian, or Kalashnikovs left over from the former Eastern Communist bloc that are converted into semi-automatic and they sell it in American gun shops to civilians. Basically, an AK47 is at least double the price of an AR15 in the USA)
The only thing that is not understandable is the aftermarket orange polymer magazine for the Kalashnikov
It's obviously a cheaper solution than a original metal one, but a good question is why it's orange when you can poke it out even at night in the dark and it looks pretty ugly
Britney Spears' 6.8x51 gun and caliber will not be suitable in my opinion, because on the one hand, the gun is too big and this will result in a sniper war, and it is obvious that the gun is not suitable for continuous shooting, it is completely inaccurate
I saw Mr. Bean firing AK at 1:45