Yes! A preamp will often sound better. I have tried both. A really good preamp can give the source a much easier load and drive the power amplifier and associated cabling (output load) with ease! I prefer tube preamps because the added tube harmonics increase clarity by reducing masking effects. We don’t need to hear the fundamental if we can hear the overtones (so if the fundamental is masked we gain clarity if the tube added harmonics allow us to “hear” that fundamental).Volume control is challenging due to the extreme range required and a great preamp will make a huge difference there - at both low and high volumes: channel separation, linearity, SNR, dynamics etc. will be better preserved with a dedicated preamp. By allowing the source to run at reference full volume you better preserve SNR performance. By using an attenuator in your source (no dedicated preamp) you lose SNR in the chain. Rule of thumb - keep the signal level as high as possible throughout the audio chain - pro audio balanced is often capable to run up to 18 volts - way higher than RCA 1 volt and this means better SNR at the final output - go pro-audio if want the best performance and for long cable runs there really is no other choice.
I have a very good DAC that can be used as a preamp, it even has an analog input. Connected directly to my amplifier, it sounds pretty darn good. I’ve always wanted to see what the “tube sound” is all about so I bought a very good tube pre used and replaced the tubes. I’ll never go back. Just my experience
Bottom line: you are correct. Some people prefer violins; others prefer pianos. Some like electric guitars. Some like weed, others alcohol. Some few are merely proud of the money they've spent on stuff. ;)
Thank you! The idea of any kind of altering or coloration of the source has become sacrilege, but the bottom line is do you like how it sounds? I'll take gobs of jitter and noise all day if it makes the music hit me deeper in my soul. Tube guys talk about even order harmonic distortion producing the tube "bloom". Great, I love tubes so color me happy.
Paul. You share with us honestly that you recognize a good preamp can actually enhance our audio experience even though you do not have a full reason(at least not convince yourself) on how it can be. I will try to add a preamp to see how and why. Looking forward for your next sharing! Thankyou!
Paul, I suspect that the reason for the sound quality improving, upon using a pre-amp, is due to the DAC being subjugated to doing what its primary function is: When the DAC is relieved of the task of producing large gain changes, it can produce its analog signal at a low volume, where it probably sounds best. It does not have to struggle with producing a higher DB level, for which it is not best at accomplishing. The pre-amp is designed specifically for volume gain to feed your amps. So it is best suited for that job, as that "is" its job. To put it another way: The pre-amp inside the DAC is simply not nearly as good as the stand-alone pre-amp. That is my hypothesis.
This is defeated by his statement that the input of his power amp - or the preamp, it doesn't matter - is the same, high input impedance of at worst just south of 100k. Thus there is essentially no current, so nothing for the source to struggle with, especially any differently. Furthermore a modern preamp in such use doesn't have a significant gain (and is thus largely a misnomer, it's more of a controller and a buffer), and to the extent that it does, it gets subtracted from the gain the power amp will need to provide, not the source. Furthermore you do not want to drive your source lower. You want to maximise the signal, because you're facing essentially no distortion either way, as measured, before you reach clipping, and you want to get away from the noise floor that is inevitably down there somewhere. Third interesting bit is that according to this video, preamps never did anything for him until he tried a tube preamp, and he attributes an improvement specifically to tube distortion. It's known that mild single-ended distortion can sound quite pleasant, especially as long as the music is fairly minimalistic in nature.
Strangely, I just discovered that putting a preamp buffer massively improved the performance of a certain electrostatic headphone and its included amp. I'm not sure if it's the output on the source or the amp itself that is having its electrical performance improved. I initially only put the preamp in the chain to use the EQ settings on it, but then I bypassed the gain modes & the EQ, cranked the amp up, and the source down. The preamp is like at 75% volume, and I'm controlling the headphone volume with the source. Doesn't even sound like the same headphone. Then I just remembered this video of yours.
I never had a preamp in customised /diy systems, I was happy with the sound of my system, it was clear and high fidelity. I was always baffled when someone like Paul talking about sound stage,though I had my concept of stereo etc. Until I put a good preamp in my chain of the system, then I realised that I can actually separate instruments and singers on the stage, in those properly recorded albums. it sounds like I wasted my 30-40 years of music listening experience.
Paul's right. I've tried a very high quality passive preamp versus solid state or tube preamps and the passive sounds thin with no drive. Overall the preamp wins in most cases. An exception could be with a high quality source that's designed to drive the power amps directly.
Agreed completely. Passives are nice, but can sound thin and lifeless. Solid states nice and controlled and detailed but for me valve pre amps sound the nicest. They add a layer of warmth to the sound and also to my ear sound the most natural and real whilst still offering a nice drive to the sound.
Aesthetix Calypso Were the tube preamp Paul did not remember the name of. (As you have mentioned before a while back.. Maybe I paid to much attention to your videos 🥰 )
Hi Paul, I am Vathna from Cambodia. Thanks for this video about preamp and also others videos I watch most of the days. I am quite passionate and learned a lot from your videos 🙏
My GCD was getting repaired so in the meantime I went directly from the DAC which has a preamp in it to control the volume and switch between inputs, and it sounded fine. Got the GCD back and switched the DAC back to DAC ONLY mode and it seemed that the soundstage was a bit wider, but I wasn’t knocked out by the difference. I use a preamp for the convenience of being able to hook up and control 4 different sources more than any other reason. If you can get away with no preamp and like what you hear, great.
Yes, Paul is correct on this one. If you put 20 Golden Ears in a listening room and put the sound source through a preamp with a tube in its signal path 18 or 19 of those Golden Ears will say the sound now has Life, Depth, Air, warmth, stage and on and on. Use something like a Pass Labs preamp and you’ll get dry, adds nothing to the sound, flat, sterile. Yup, there will be a clear preference for that tube sound which is exactly what Paul says in this video. Paul never mentioned accuracy.
As a musician and recording engineer, my pre-amp is actually the mixing desk. I could run electronic synths directly into the recorder, but the control of the signal across two preamps (mixing board and recorder preamps) smooths the sound and seems to remove harshness. Maybe it is the balancing of the preamps, there is not enough signal from a synth to a recorder and it must be boosted at the preamp stage to get a proper level at the recorder. So I have 3 choices; boosting both or one or the other to achieve the best sound. I don't know either, maybe it is the introduction of analog distortion at low levels, maybe our ears/mind favors a distortion that is missing on a direct inject recording. Maybe we are missing the distortions a room/hall/have on an instrument? When we play back a recording in a small room (which accounts for 99% of homes) it sounds sterile and too clean...missing is the distortions we get from a stage/hall/concert venue???? Obviously program material matters, acoustic instruments compared to sound re-enforcement instruments can make a difference in our perceptions and predictions of "proper sound".
I'm using just an integrated tube amplifier with 3 inputs (turntable, bluetooth DAC and a CD player) All sound very good to me going direct to the amplifier. A few times I added a preamp (tube and transistor) but then found I was fiddling with it more than listening to the music and the differance was not all that much better. The way I correct any imbalance in sound is to use resistors, capacitors or chokes at the input of the speakers.
I've played the phono preamp game for about a year, and have gone through 5 preamps that cost under $500 dollars. Its been fun and interesting/informative as well! My system is sounding really really good now! Some day i hope to buy 1 of the nicer systems
"Because the Vacuum Tube is somehow adding something pleasurable to the music". Perhaps a certain amount of harmonics? I still remember the sweetness of the sound coming out of the family tube radio, a Blaupunkt with a single large oval speaker. The high frequencies were attenuated somewhat - and not harsh - and the middle frequencies were sweet. Clearly harmonic distortion and reduced frequency response. But it sounded so sweet. Makes me wonder if looking for 0.001%THD and a flat frequency response from 5Hz to 50kHz is really what we should be aiming for.
I don't think this is the same thing, but when I got back into "the hobby" a few years ago, I had just two components...a turntable & a tape deck. Neither one had a preamp, meaning they needed to be hooked up to a receiver or amp. To get around that, I hooked the two together, & pressed record on the tape deck (without a tape in it) & I had sound!!! I had to settle for that until a coworker gave me an old Marantz receiver one day. I know, or don't think, this is the same thing, but I thought it was neat. I honestly don't remember how good it sounded, but it wasn't too bad because that's what I listened to for a little while.
I have been driving a old 40W Mcintosh tube amp directly from a Burr Brown DAC based audio card in my PC. After 50 years of working with audio this has yielded my best outcome so far. However, I cannot say I have ever found anything offensive about a well designed preamp.
The best pre-amp I ever heard is the Audio Research SP-3 with the original vacuum tubes. My BSK pre-amp is pretty close in sound quality and what I like about the BHK is it only has two input tubes.
I have a huge amount of respect for Paul admitting this. Most transistor brands would never admit this. I also think that there are almost no really good preamplifiers on the market. So many sound boring/thin/cold/harsh/out of tune. I have only heard Nagra and Spectral transistor preamps sounding good that are transistor. But the annoying part is also that, they only sound good with the same brand, which is a huge limitation. I guess PSaudio then did something quite unique.
The reason for a good preamp is to modify the signal source to match room characteristics. Speakers have to be matched to room acoustics that can make speakers sound excessively bright or to heavy at the bottom end. Good tonal control can help balance sound. Also use of a well designed loudness control, that is the change to frequency contour based on volume setting to make music more realistic at lower sound levels. I suspect the reason valve amps sound better is the particular type of distortion valves add (yes, they are adding distortion), hence the term you often hear, valves add warmth.
Almost every preamplifier adds up a sonic signature, sometimes ever so little but, it is there. I have noticed through group listening that, many people _do like_ a bit of colouration in sound, even if it 'violates' the flat frequency response in specs. I guess then, this opens the door for a preamplifier of choice. The 'direct way' is super clean and impresses initially but extensive listening can expose it as somewhat sterile. I think it gets into subjective evaluation territory.
@Fat Rat ..and you haven't been tempted to try again a preamp "FatRat"? I alternate between preamplifiers and a small passive fully balanced one. In some recordings the passive is king while, with different material I prefer the sound of the active preamp... One can develop (unintentionally) a "bipolar" mental condition with these experiments.. LOL!
Good video Paul your right a preamp between your main amplification gives more signal with the sound my dragon fly dac that I use goes out to my preamp and sends it out to my main amplification. Without a preamp the sound , it's fine but a little flat sounding to my ears.
The recording and reproduction process robs music of some subtle cues, harmonics etc and voices can become thinner, drier and harder than in life. Adding a valve preamp may add some distortion but the ear is fooled into thinking it is closer to natural organic sound. Vinyl does the same thing. No preamp can sound pretty good for a while but I find it a bit small and lacking in dynamics. A valve preamp can give you back dynamics and an increased sense of space and voices sound more fleshed out. I have never heard a transformer coupled passive, like a Townshend allegri they are said to be more dynamic than no preamp or a passive.
The tubes preams may sound snces because of the INTERMODULATIONS DISTORTIONS from the tubes. hear is a articles from MIstre KENROCKWELLs... These are subtle effects most audible to musicians and very dedicated music lovers; casual listeners (people who "listen" with their eyes open while doing something else) usually won't notice, but sometimes the difference is so obvious that people's wives will comment that "wow, that sounds much better" when people use tubes at home. Tube amplifiers measure poorly in the lab specifically because of these added distortions, but these distortions are often a part of what make them sound better. Even today with an all-digital infrastructure from recording studio to home, professional studio microphones for decades and decades and decades have used tube pre-preamplifiers inside the microphones themselves. Today their outputs are fed to tube preamplifiers before being digitised for recording, mixing and distribution. We use tubes simply because they make the music we create sound better: smoother, warmer and cleaner. Guitars amps with tub esounds nices because the tube distortions, nit the clip[ping but AMplitues and sucs. My frends with the KRELL and BW DOES NOT LIKES TUBES! Guitar into thew EFFECTS RETURN doe snto sound as mive as the preamp with the equalizers. THANKES YOUE AND THUM,BBS UPPS!
As I'm sure you know, Paul, high-end audio is a journey. It's entirely possible the tubed pre-amp whose name you forgot may have sounded better because it may have helped mask a distortion that lack of pre-amp exposed. Thus convincing you the tubed pre-amp was more musical. Just saying that's a distinct possibility. In theory and in practice and all else being the same, a lack of active gain stage should always sound more naturally musical. In such a case only the dynamics should suffer. However, a passive pre-amp with high-powered amps should not only compensate for the usual lack of dynamics but also provide a more realistic and natural and musical dynamics than with an active pre-amp. But nobody seems to try this.
My analog preamp uses a type of photo-cel technology which is unique. There is little if any measurable influence on the signal. So it's more passive than anything ever developed. And yet, the sound is so incredibly clear, engaging and alive, better than any sonic influence, or lack of influence I've experienced with preamps, be they tube, digital or solid state. In a nutshell, the builder, Ed Schilling states: "It has an input impedance too high to measure, output impedance is a couple ohms, bandwidth is to 60Mhz, slew rate is a couple hundred V/microsecond. There are no capacitors or resistors (other than the photocell) in the signal path. There is no potentiometer in the signal path. It uses photo cells to control the volume. It does not use optocouplers."
Interaction between outputs (usually opamps) of the pre amp and the input stage of the amp is a complex behavior. There’s no easy answer. It is indeed possible for a preamp to drive the power amp’s input section with lower distortion than a source alone.
@@Canadian_Eh_I I've read a few whitepapers by Texas Instruments and others. All opamps are not suited for the same task. Preamps, especially two channel models, tend to spend a little more coin in this area than most source manufacturers do.
@@DBravo29er Ok so question: If your dac already has a digital volume control its already going through an opamp, correct? So is using a preamp ONLY beneficial when your DAC has no volume control?
@@Canadian_Eh_I Not necessarily (to the VC). There are many types of VC; most of which do not preserve quality or bit depth. You've got cheap Far East analog potentiometers to Alps Blue Velvet. Resistor ladders. Stepped relay attenuators, etc. They all behave differently. Back to opamps. Like with DAC chips, it's not just with chip is used, but how it is implemented. What kind of power supplies feed it? Are they independently regulated? Is it buffered? Are two matched opamps being used in parallel? Etc etc etc. The bottom line is that a good active preamp can often drive the variable output of a VC line output with lower noise floor and distortion.... and to generally higher output levels.... than a device that was originally designed to be optimized into 2v RMS but had an attenuator circuit or VC circuit added. VC and quality output is a core competency for a preamp.... not so for a device that has added this capability. I tried this with my RME ADI-2 and Benchmark LA-4 into my Benchmark AHB2's. Soundstage was larger, detail retrieval at lower output was better, and dynamics were more potent when using the LA-4 via XLR vs the RME via XLR. And the RME has one of the better implemented VC'a in the industry and the best at its price point. They only exceptions may be the Holo May DAC, which has a stunning resistor ladder VC that one can purchase as a $600 option. But, again, it costs money and requires intention to design and build a quality VC. Which is why it's not just "included" in the base model.
Tube adds something to the sound that Paul says in the video. Or tube colors / changes the sound. If you have to change the sound to get it good then something is not good enough. Speakers are the weakest link! All equipment has a preamplifier built in! Transistors or 8 leg ic. When using an audio streaming box or DAC you have offte a cheap preamplifier built in! so you run sounds through 2 preamps in a way if you have your own preamp box.
I disagree to be honest. Especially with digital sources the sound can sound thin and a little lifeless with passives and solid states. The tubes add a lovely layer of warmth to the sound and to my ear sound the most natural. Don’t get me wrong I enjoy all 3 and own all 3 but I keep going back to the tube pre amp, as to my personal tastes it sounds the best.
Wadia's view was that a good separate pre-amp cuts RF noise from the source. So Wadia said they tried to hard suppress RF for direct connection to power amp.
@@faludabutt8253 Cant put my finger on it but in my opinion its a sound thats not boomy in bass, human voice reslistic & treble is sweet. Enough separation but not sterlie and detscted. Sounds musical & whatever music is played you dont get hung up on Audiophile Sound Quality but just a fair rendition. Trust me I have done/tried/bought/listened to high end equipment & cabling & it just fatigues you but now I have scaled down to ensure what I call decent musical tone.
Nass Khan I I am more into Hindi music up to the late 80’s. First problem is that it’s poorly recorded in the first place compared to in the West, Japan or South Korea. Mics, recording equipment and sound engeeniers are poor. Hindi recording improved every 10 years. A R Rehman’s recording are superb. So I have to go by what I have. I am enjoying my recent vinyl collections by changing cartridges and speakers. Best I have heard up to now is heresy IV. For medium to slow paced music. Hindi music akin to western pop
It's been a long time since this video came out, but I have a question... If i have a very good tube dac, will i benefit from replacing my solid-state preamp to a tube based preamp? My monos are a very good solid state amps. Thanks allot 🙏
If it adds something (even something benevolent) , it's no longer HiFi , and we are entering the zone of euphonics . The question no longer is if it truefully replicates the source but if it sounds good .
It's not rocket science, many people like the sound of tube amplifiers, preamplifers, or whatever because of their more euphonic sound because of the different transfer function of tubes versus transistors and the distortions arising from the use of transformers. The net effect is a more pleasing harmonious sound from the addition of pleasing harmonics. Also in the case of power amplifiers, the lower damping factor also adds some harmonic distortion due to the reactance of the speaker being less damped. Personally I prefer to preserve the audio signal and control any addition of sound effects via EQ or more sophisticated psychoacoustic algorithm based methods.
Anyone who knows a bit about sound knows that everything you run the sound through will affect sounds in some way It is best to run the sound through the least possible equipment. Without a preamplifier is the best but not always the most practical! All equipment has its own sound type and no one sounds the same! If you are using a CD player with built-in volume adjustment or a computer or other equipment with your own volume adjustment with high enough output volume then you do not need pre-amplified!
@Fat Rat Yes I know. Now I have the Denon DCD 2560 GOLD which was the special edition of the second largest CD player of the time and Denon DCD3300 which was the largest one at that time! I run everything through a DAC and then into the amplifier that has the built-in preamplifier. Shengya A-206
As far as i know all BOSS pedals haves a buffers. The TRUE BYPASS is a pile of garbage. My frnds to me to always have at leest 1 pedal with a buffers on the pedalbroads. THNALE YOU AND TBBS UPS!
I was running my Adcom cd player (30 +yrs old) into my Adcom amp ( same age) which drove my snell c2 mk2 speakers ( also over 30yrs.old ), that is until Paul said the DACs in CD sucked. Soo I bought a used Emotiva preamp/DAC which now connects to the amp. Resulting in improvement in detail, soundstage and imaging as well as volume. So my question why aren't Preamp/DAC configurations more common as it seems a good way to go? is the notion of separates as better applicable here? As an aside I was going to upgrade my amp with the PS Audio Stella s300 but given the economic uncertainty of the impact of covid 19 my purchase was put on hold. I intend to support PS Audio and Emotiva as they are supporting their staff in these difficult times, the loyalty to their workers is not lost on me. It is sad that there are few audio stores to audition gear and while it can't get easier then the return policy of PS Audio it pales in comparison to going to a store. I just heard Paul's lament on the decline of shows, it seems to me the audio industry is committing suicide. How the hell am I going to choose between a few competing companies( ps audio emotiva shiits for example) without hearing their gear. What am I going to do order their amps at the same time then return the ones I don't like I don't think so! But this view is from a middle-class guy not some rich cat with lots of disposable income.
Thanke you Mine frends! As fasas I know, all BOSS pedals have a buffers. I have heard the differnece when 8 pedals together with and witholu a BUFFER. I don tlike the TURE BYPASS. It ends up being a real tone suckers. My frends tol ame to have at least 1 buffer pedal in the signal paths. Only down side is if the power gets stuf off t the pedal such as 9 volt transformer stop working, then no signal! THAKN YOU, YOUA RE TEH GOODS FRENDS., THUMBBSS UPS!
I've tried the audio output from my Fetch tv tuner/ recorder direct to my power amp and it trumps the sound going through my pre amp which is all vacuum tube design
I think this has something to do with linearity of the output. Maybe it’s better to push the DAC and preamp amplification only 50% than pushing only the DAC output for 100%
hi paul.im trying to get hold of a bhk pre to go with the dac and 250 amp back in the uk .nobody appears to have one..can kevin get hold of one for me to test? cheers
Well less Ripple I suppose amperage would be a factor would be more Run your DAC through a Tape Deck get a tape make a loop run dac into the type the out of the Tape Deck into your active speaker or amplifier. you probably haven't got real to reel so you probably have to add a washer glued on the spool to the Tape otherwise you get too much Flutter. Even running in and out of the circuitry will give you some benefit but you add some noise depends on the condition quality of deck. Check your voltage as well on your DAC solid-state amps prefer low voltage 1 volt might be better tube amplifiers prefer 3 volts setting between 1 and 3 unbalanced. this means turning it off and holding the buttons putting it back on it should flash to the sequence you need look in your manual to change output voltage. Run it 1 volt standard is 2 volts. 3 volts valve amps
So yesterday I was working to sort my new amp setup and for one config I removed the preamp from the food chain (so I could use all balanced connections) and use the volume on the source via phone remote. I forgot I had the gain all the way up on both amps. I made mistake and went instantly to max volume. Yeah... 1260 watts... instantly... loud... no, really really loud.... So, for me, I'll stick with a preamp in there for, at least, the better/safer volume control...
@Fat Rat I had a variable gain and I started at a low volume, just saying it was digital and harder to control (and I double tapped and that's the command for set to 0 db...)
Is it possible that some CD's are recorded poorly? I have some store bought CD's that just sound "muddy" no matter in what CD Player or system I play it in.
For well over a decade i used a Conrad Johnson PV10 preamp which is all tube, I used it as much for the great phono preamp it had as the great sounding preamp sound (compared to a solid state Parasound preamp of the early aughts). I replaced the CJ a couple of years back with a Rogue Audio RP5 which has a great sound, I don't use the internal solid state phon section because I find it too dark - very quiet but dark sounding. I use a homebrew La Pacifica that uses Jfets and find that much more open sounding. Maybe some of the difference in preamp vs no preamp has to do with the output impedance of some components (esp older ones). A higher output impedance might cause the cables to have more effect on the sound of the entire chain.
Ultimately, one still has to amplify the signal from line level out of the source, to a level sufficient to power their speakers. By omitting the pre-amp your aren't (and pardon the pun) gaining anything. All the gain now happens in the power amp.
I have a Shanling CD player with a variable output. I tried it direct to my Bryston power amp thinking I would have a better sound since my Adcom preamp was no longer in the path. The result....meh. Reinserted my preamp and it was a much more open and revealing. There are no tubes in the preamp or amp.
@Fat Rat The Shanling has only one output. My point was that the preamp included in the path still made a positive difference (output on the CD at max)
This is my favourite video on all the TH-cam. The head of the audioequipment company and a life-long audiophile admits that he does not know why preamp might improve the sound of an audio-system. You can not beat that. Respect to you Paul, I am sure 99% of audio-geeks would pull an answer to that out of their a**, but not you my man, not you. You only say what you know.
Bang a Gong.... The never ending A sounds better than B... The subjective/ objective listening experience is fraught with anomolies.. We would all be driving the same car if there was actually a best... The best example I give is listening to "Satisfaction" driving in a Corvette with a top down out of an FM radio and it just sounds fantastic, making me want to dance....
I too doubted adding a preamp would do anything positive. IMHO....a (tube) preamp added “bloom” or “life” to the sound probably by lifting the input voltages going into the power amp.....and probably also by adding just enough 2nd order harmonic distortion to be pleasurable
The preamp question reminds me the discussion battle about adding Benchmark LA4 preamp in the chain can improve system SNR. (www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-benchmark-hpa4-headphone-amp-pre.8141 . The thread starts with measuring and discussing HPA4, somehow turns into if LA4 will improve SNR.
I think, no matter how impartial you may think Paul is, asking a CEO of a company who sells preamps whether you should buy/use a preamp is going to have some level of bias. If you walk into a car dealership and ask them if you should buy a car from them, what do you think they’d say?
Fat Rat I did, in my younger years, ask about taking a test drive at a dealership and the salesman said to me “Only if you’re ready to buy it right now”. Well I WAS looking for another car (who goes car shopping for fun?), so I thought that was a bad sign. So I left.
Anybody know where I can find video or photos showing how to connect the DirectStream DAC directly to a power amplifier with a (non REL) subwoofer? Thanks!
Depending on your amps’s inputs, you could get a pair of XLR-to-RCA cables in order to use both audio outputs on the DS; don’t both types of outputs on the DS work at the same time? Or you could get an RCA splitter adaptor and run two different lines for the amp and sub. Not elegant solutions, but both should work well, as long as you’re not running long distances.
Same- tube pre amp- the sound is smooth yet detailed with more space around instruments and less fatiguing sound. You dont have to spend BHK money to get it either. www.schiit.co.uk/Schiit-Freya
Digital attenuation is bad, and I'm not going to lie, i enjoy the colour of my active kinki preamp. The audiophile way would be a passive preamp but i don't want to be an audiophile.
@Fat Rat Hegel preamp and Hegel DAC actually sounds better than the DAC and Pream that I have in my Integrated amp. But both of them cost about the same as my amp for each of them. Hegel makes very good integrated and separate components.
@Fat Rat I have the H390, but I guess I might have already told that. I'm very happy with it. And I see no reason to exchange any device in my system at the current time.
When you have finally transitioned to pure digital audio, you don't need a preamp. A DAC output is line level and a power amp input is also line level. Of course a well designed DAC can drive a power amp directly. Justifying a pre-amp with the argument that you need volume control is somewhat bogus. Volume control is trivial to do in a DAC. I really would love to see a PS Audio solid DAC that includes a high-performance DSP (loudness, EQ, room calibration etc. with DIGITAL BYPASS option) and top-notch analog volume control. Call it whatever (pre-amp or DAC).
My frends told me it was perfectly fines to plug in his krell intio the POWERS AMPS na control the sould level with the remote control output level of the KRELL. I honestly don know if ti was a CD player ot transport and converter. But thats what he told me. For guitares, Mister Scott Grove uses a Morley OPTILCA PEDAL. I hav enot true dit ye because I done hav emonmey for it yet. I will some day into the EFFECTS RETURN of the bass amp. THANKES TYOU AND THUMBB SUPS!
Paul, I love the videos and I've been watching them from the beginning but I've started to skip them because you're answering the same question for the 2nd or 3rd time. You've mentioned several times that you've received a huge number of questions. If that's the case surely there's no reason to answer the same question multiple times.
IMHO, triode. That's a general statement though, all circuits are unique. My amp has a switch that will pick either triode or pentode (Primaluna). Triode sounds way better but it gives about 1/2 the power. I use triode until I need to really rock out, then it's pentode.
Be glad you are not a mechanic, you will shake your head every day. There are things made to 'work' in the automotive engineering world that don't make sense but work well.
It does not sound better, it sounds different. Tubes give a roundy feeling but are decreasing the definition. Why is this video promoting high grade tube preamps? Is it because PS Audio is producing high grade tube preamps?
I have had the same experience with my equipement.
Since I put a tube preamp between the streamer and the amp, the sound has improved with no doubt.
No Doubt has a good sound.
@@jamesplotkin4674 Yeah, much better soundstage than Doubt, Doubt is so narrow.
Yes! A preamp will often sound better. I have tried both. A really good preamp can give the source a much easier load and drive the power amplifier and associated cabling (output load) with ease! I prefer tube preamps because the added tube harmonics increase clarity by reducing masking effects. We don’t need to hear the fundamental if we can hear the overtones (so if the fundamental is masked we gain clarity if the tube added harmonics allow us to “hear” that fundamental).Volume control is challenging due to the extreme range required and a great preamp will make a huge difference there - at both low and high volumes: channel separation, linearity, SNR, dynamics etc. will be better preserved with a dedicated preamp. By allowing the source to run at reference full volume you better preserve SNR performance. By using an attenuator in your source (no dedicated preamp) you lose SNR in the chain. Rule of thumb - keep the signal level as high as possible throughout the audio chain - pro audio balanced is often capable to run up to 18 volts - way higher than RCA 1 volt and this means better SNR at the final output - go pro-audio if want the best performance and for long cable runs there really is no other choice.
Paul cupping his hands over his ears and doing a mock scream just made my day (a rather dull day obviously like most others).
I have a very good DAC that can be used as a preamp, it even has an analog input. Connected directly to my amplifier, it sounds pretty darn good. I’ve always wanted to see what the “tube sound” is all about so I bought a very good tube pre used and replaced the tubes. I’ll never go back. Just my experience
TOOOBZ!!! 😍
I had a similar experience! What tube preamp was it by the way?
It’s simple, good sounding systems are colored, colored to an individuals taste.
Bottom line: you are correct. Some people prefer violins; others prefer pianos. Some like electric guitars. Some like weed, others alcohol. Some few are merely proud of the money they've spent on stuff. ;)
Thank you! The idea of any kind of altering or coloration of the source has become sacrilege, but the bottom line is do you like how it sounds? I'll take gobs of jitter and noise all day if it makes the music hit me deeper in my soul. Tube guys talk about even order harmonic distortion producing the tube "bloom". Great, I love tubes so color me happy.
Indeed
Paul.
You share with us honestly that you recognize a good preamp can actually enhance our audio experience even though you do not have a full reason(at least not convince yourself) on how it can be. I will try to add a preamp to see how and why.
Looking forward for your next sharing!
Thankyou!
Paul, I suspect that the reason for the sound quality improving, upon using a pre-amp, is due to the DAC being subjugated to doing what its primary function is:
When the DAC is relieved of the task of producing large gain changes, it can produce its analog signal at a low volume, where it probably sounds best. It does not have to struggle with producing a higher DB level, for which it is not best at accomplishing.
The pre-amp is designed specifically for volume gain to feed your amps. So it is best suited for that job, as that "is" its job.
To put it another way:
The pre-amp inside the DAC is simply not nearly as good as the stand-alone pre-amp.
That is my hypothesis.
@behexen250 Correct.
This is defeated by his statement that the input of his power amp - or the preamp, it doesn't matter - is the same, high input impedance of at worst just south of 100k. Thus there is essentially no current, so nothing for the source to struggle with, especially any differently. Furthermore a modern preamp in such use doesn't have a significant gain (and is thus largely a misnomer, it's more of a controller and a buffer), and to the extent that it does, it gets subtracted from the gain the power amp will need to provide, not the source.
Furthermore you do not want to drive your source lower. You want to maximise the signal, because you're facing essentially no distortion either way, as measured, before you reach clipping, and you want to get away from the noise floor that is inevitably down there somewhere.
Third interesting bit is that according to this video, preamps never did anything for him until he tried a tube preamp, and he attributes an improvement specifically to tube distortion. It's known that mild single-ended distortion can sound quite pleasant, especially as long as the music is fairly minimalistic in nature.
This was a good question and a good answer, I had no luck to hear a tube preamp yet, but I would love to try one and hear the difference.
Strangely, I just discovered that putting a preamp buffer massively improved the performance of a certain electrostatic headphone and its included amp. I'm not sure if it's the output on the source or the amp itself that is having its electrical performance improved. I initially only put the preamp in the chain to use the EQ settings on it, but then I bypassed the gain modes & the EQ, cranked the amp up, and the source down. The preamp is like at 75% volume, and I'm controlling the headphone volume with the source. Doesn't even sound like the same headphone. Then I just remembered this video of yours.
It takes a good man to admit when he just doesn't know something.
"Humility is the strength of a true craftsman".
I never had a preamp in customised /diy systems, I was happy with the sound of my system, it was clear and high fidelity. I was always baffled when someone like Paul talking about sound stage,though I had my concept of stereo etc. Until I put a good preamp in my chain of the system, then I realised that I can actually separate instruments and singers on the stage, in those properly recorded albums. it sounds like I wasted my 30-40 years of music listening experience.
Paul's right. I've tried a very high quality passive preamp versus solid state or tube preamps and the passive sounds thin with no drive. Overall the preamp wins in most cases. An exception could be with a high quality source that's designed to drive the power amps directly.
Agreed completely. Passives are nice, but can sound thin and lifeless. Solid states nice and controlled and detailed but for me valve pre amps sound the nicest. They add a layer of warmth to the sound and also to my ear sound the most natural and real whilst still offering a nice drive to the sound.
Aesthetix Calypso
Were the tube preamp Paul did not remember the name of.
(As you have mentioned before a while back.. Maybe I paid to much attention to your videos 🥰 )
Hi Paul, I am Vathna from Cambodia. Thanks for this video about preamp and also others videos I watch most of the days. I am quite passionate and learned a lot from your videos 🙏
Welcome, my friend, and thanks for reaching out!
My GCD was getting repaired so in the meantime I went directly from the DAC which has a preamp in it to control the volume and switch between inputs, and it sounded fine. Got the GCD back and switched the DAC back to DAC ONLY mode and it seemed that the soundstage was a bit wider, but I wasn’t knocked out by the difference. I use a preamp for the convenience of being able to hook up and control 4 different sources more than any other reason. If you can get away with no preamp and like what you hear, great.
That's why it doesn't justify to pay over ten thousand dollars to get a decent preamp that seems to make only a subtle difference in sound quality.
Yes, Paul is correct on this one. If you put 20 Golden Ears in a listening room and put the sound source through a preamp with a tube in its signal path 18 or 19 of those Golden Ears will say the sound now has Life, Depth, Air, warmth, stage and on and on. Use something like a Pass Labs preamp and you’ll get dry, adds nothing to the sound, flat, sterile. Yup, there will be a clear preference for that tube sound which is exactly what Paul says in this video. Paul never mentioned accuracy.
As a musician and recording engineer, my pre-amp is actually the mixing desk. I could run electronic synths directly into the recorder, but the control of the signal across two preamps (mixing board and recorder preamps) smooths the sound and seems to remove harshness. Maybe it is the balancing of the preamps, there is not enough signal from a synth to a recorder and it must be boosted at the preamp stage to get a proper level at the recorder. So I have 3 choices; boosting both or one or the other to achieve the best sound. I don't know either, maybe it is the introduction of analog distortion at low levels, maybe our ears/mind favors a distortion that is missing on a direct inject recording. Maybe we are missing the distortions a room/hall/have on an instrument? When we play back a recording in a small room (which accounts for 99% of homes) it sounds sterile and too clean...missing is the distortions we get from a stage/hall/concert venue???? Obviously program material matters, acoustic instruments compared to sound re-enforcement instruments can make a difference in our perceptions and predictions of "proper sound".
I'm using just an integrated tube amplifier with 3 inputs (turntable, bluetooth DAC and a CD player) All sound very good to me going direct to the amplifier. A few times I added a preamp (tube and transistor) but then found I was fiddling with it more than listening to the music and the differance was not all that much better. The way I correct any imbalance in sound is to use resistors, capacitors or chokes at the input of the speakers.
I've played the phono preamp game for about a year, and have gone through 5 preamps that cost under $500 dollars. Its been fun and interesting/informative as well! My system is sounding really really good now! Some day i hope to buy 1 of the nicer systems
"Because the Vacuum Tube is somehow adding something pleasurable to the music". Perhaps a certain amount of harmonics? I still remember the sweetness of the sound coming out of the family tube radio, a Blaupunkt with a single large oval speaker. The high frequencies were attenuated somewhat - and not harsh - and the middle frequencies were sweet. Clearly harmonic distortion and reduced frequency response. But it sounded so sweet.
Makes me wonder if looking for 0.001%THD and a flat frequency response from 5Hz to 50kHz is really what we should be aiming for.
I don't think this is the same thing, but when I got back into "the hobby" a few years ago, I had just two components...a turntable & a tape deck. Neither one had a preamp, meaning they needed to be hooked up to a receiver or amp. To get around that, I hooked the two together, & pressed record on the tape deck (without a tape in it) & I had sound!!! I had to settle for that until a coworker gave me an old Marantz receiver one day.
I know, or don't think, this is the same thing, but I thought it was neat. I honestly don't remember how good it sounded, but it wasn't too bad because that's what I listened to for a little while.
I have been driving a old 40W Mcintosh tube amp directly from a Burr Brown DAC based audio card in my PC. After 50 years of working with audio this has yielded my best outcome so far. However, I cannot say I have ever found anything offensive about a well designed preamp.
The best pre-amp I ever heard is the Audio Research SP-3 with the original vacuum tubes. My BSK pre-amp is pretty close in sound quality and what I like about the BHK is it only has two input tubes.
I have a huge amount of respect for Paul admitting this. Most transistor brands would never admit this. I also think that there are almost no really good preamplifiers on the market. So many sound boring/thin/cold/harsh/out of tune. I have only heard Nagra and Spectral transistor preamps sounding good that are transistor. But the annoying part is also that, they only sound good with the same brand, which is a huge limitation. I guess PSaudio then did something quite unique.
The reason for a good preamp is to modify the signal source to match room characteristics. Speakers have to be matched to room acoustics that can make speakers sound excessively bright or to heavy at the bottom end. Good tonal control can help balance sound. Also use of a well designed loudness control, that is the change to frequency contour based on volume setting to make music more realistic at lower sound levels. I suspect the reason valve amps sound better is the particular type of distortion valves add (yes, they are adding distortion), hence the term you often hear, valves add warmth.
Time to connect the preamp to the postamp stage and watch the fun!!!
Almost every preamplifier adds up a sonic signature, sometimes ever so little but, it is there.
I have noticed through group listening that, many people _do like_ a bit of colouration in sound, even if it 'violates' the flat frequency response in specs.
I guess then, this opens the door for a preamplifier of choice. The 'direct way' is super clean and impresses initially but extensive listening can expose it as somewhat sterile.
I think it gets into subjective evaluation territory.
Oh you can't say that because colouration BAD
@Fat Rat
..and you haven't been tempted to try again a preamp "FatRat"?
I alternate between preamplifiers and a small passive fully balanced one. In some recordings the passive is king while, with different material
I prefer the sound of the active preamp...
One can develop (unintentionally) a "bipolar" mental condition with these experiments.. LOL!
Good video Paul your right a preamp between your main amplification gives more signal with the sound my dragon fly dac that I use goes out to my preamp and sends it out to my main amplification. Without a preamp the sound , it's fine but a little flat sounding to my ears.
vacuum tube noise adds dithering, which mitigates quantizing artifacts
The recording and reproduction process robs music of some subtle cues, harmonics etc and voices can become thinner, drier and harder than in life. Adding a valve preamp may add some distortion but the ear is fooled into thinking it is closer to natural organic sound. Vinyl does the same thing. No preamp can sound pretty good for a while but I find it a bit small and lacking in dynamics. A valve preamp can give you back dynamics and an increased sense of space and voices sound more fleshed out. I have never heard a transformer coupled passive, like a Townshend allegri they are said to be more dynamic than no preamp or a passive.
The preamp starting with "C" was a bottle of chardonnay.
Or Cognac or Champagne or Cava
@@QoraxAudio
* hic! *
@@HareDeLune *hoc!*
😆
Conrad Johnson?
I think it was an Aesthetix Calypso.
I'm not sure how many times I've seen Paul answer this, but I am back for more. lol
The tubes preams may sound snces because of the INTERMODULATIONS DISTORTIONS from the tubes. hear is a articles from MIstre KENROCKWELLs...
These are subtle effects most audible to musicians and very dedicated music lovers; casual listeners (people who "listen" with their eyes open while doing something else) usually won't notice, but sometimes the difference is so obvious that people's wives will comment that "wow, that sounds much better" when people use tubes at home.
Tube amplifiers measure poorly in the lab specifically because of these added distortions, but these distortions are often a part of what make them sound better.
Even today with an all-digital infrastructure from recording studio to home, professional studio microphones for decades and decades and decades have used tube pre-preamplifiers inside the microphones themselves. Today their outputs are fed to tube preamplifiers before being digitised for recording, mixing and distribution. We use tubes simply because they make the music we create sound better: smoother, warmer and cleaner.
Guitars amps with tub esounds nices because the tube distortions, nit the clip[ping but AMplitues and sucs. My frends with the KRELL and BW DOES NOT LIKES TUBES! Guitar into thew EFFECTS RETURN doe snto sound as mive as the preamp with the equalizers. THANKES YOUE AND THUM,BBS UPPS!
If we start pulling our hair out for everything that doesn't make sense in life, the entire world's population will go bald.
Laurel - Hardly !!!
I think it's even ordered Harmonics :D
No we'd be under lockdown...
th-cam.com/video/jUbNsdiQe0I/w-d-xo.html
Too late for me...
When the hell is Pawool getting to my question?
As I'm sure you know, Paul, high-end audio is a journey. It's entirely possible the tubed pre-amp whose name you forgot may have sounded better because it may have helped mask a distortion that lack of pre-amp exposed. Thus convincing you the tubed pre-amp was more musical. Just saying that's a distinct possibility. In theory and in practice and all else being the same, a lack of active gain stage should always sound more naturally musical. In such a case only the dynamics should suffer. However, a passive pre-amp with high-powered amps should not only compensate for the usual lack of dynamics but also provide a more realistic and natural and musical dynamics than with an active pre-amp. But nobody seems to try this.
My analog preamp uses a type of photo-cel technology which is unique. There is little if any measurable influence on the signal. So it's more passive than anything ever developed. And yet, the sound is so incredibly clear, engaging and alive, better than any sonic influence, or lack of influence I've experienced with preamps, be they tube, digital or solid state. In a nutshell, the builder, Ed Schilling states: "It has an input impedance too high to measure, output impedance is a couple ohms, bandwidth is to 60Mhz, slew rate is a couple hundred V/microsecond. There are no capacitors or resistors (other than the photocell) in the signal path. There is no potentiometer in the signal path. It uses photo cells to control the volume. It does not use optocouplers."
Interaction between outputs (usually opamps) of the pre amp and the input stage of the amp is a complex behavior. There’s no easy answer. It is indeed possible for a preamp to drive the power amp’s input section with lower distortion than a source alone.
Now thats interesting, any reason for this that you can point to?
@@Canadian_Eh_I I've read a few whitepapers by Texas Instruments and others. All opamps are not suited for the same task. Preamps, especially two channel models, tend to spend a little more coin in this area than most source manufacturers do.
@@DBravo29er Ok so question: If your dac already has a digital volume control its already going through an opamp, correct? So is using a preamp ONLY beneficial when your DAC has no volume control?
@@Canadian_Eh_I Not necessarily (to the VC). There are many types of VC; most of which do not preserve quality or bit depth. You've got cheap Far East analog potentiometers to Alps Blue Velvet. Resistor ladders. Stepped relay attenuators, etc. They all behave differently.
Back to opamps. Like with DAC chips, it's not just with chip is used, but how it is implemented. What kind of power supplies feed it? Are they independently regulated? Is it buffered? Are two matched opamps being used in parallel? Etc etc etc.
The bottom line is that a good active preamp can often drive the variable output of a VC line output with lower noise floor and distortion.... and to generally higher output levels.... than a device that was originally designed to be optimized into 2v RMS but had an attenuator circuit or VC circuit added. VC and quality output is a core competency for a preamp.... not so for a device that has added this capability.
I tried this with my RME ADI-2 and Benchmark LA-4 into my Benchmark AHB2's. Soundstage was larger, detail retrieval at lower output was better, and dynamics were more potent when using the LA-4 via XLR vs the RME via XLR. And the RME has one of the better implemented VC'a in the industry and the best at its price point.
They only exceptions may be the Holo May DAC, which has a stunning resistor ladder VC that one can purchase as a $600 option. But, again, it costs money and requires intention to design and build a quality VC. Which is why it's not just "included" in the base model.
Nothing sounds better than CD with a Perfect Wave Transport or DirectStream Memory Player
Excellent Paul. Thanks!
Tube adds something to the sound that Paul says in the video. Or tube colors / changes the sound.
If you have to change the sound to get it good then something is not good enough. Speakers are the weakest link!
All equipment has a preamplifier built in! Transistors or 8 leg ic. When using an audio streaming box or DAC you have offte a cheap preamplifier built in! so you run sounds through 2 preamps in a way if you have your own preamp box.
I disagree to be honest. Especially with digital sources the sound can sound thin and a little lifeless with passives and solid states. The tubes add a lovely layer of warmth to the sound and to my ear sound the most natural. Don’t get me wrong I enjoy all 3 and own all 3 but I keep going back to the tube pre amp, as to my personal tastes it sounds the best.
I think he was referring to the Cambridge pre amp.
Wadia's view was that a good separate pre-amp cuts RF noise from the source. So Wadia said they tried to hard suppress RF for direct connection to power amp.
People get hung up on Accuracy but a decent musical tone that makes music in the home is the answer.
Nass Khan what’s decent musical tone 😊
@@faludabutt8253 Cant put my finger on it but in my opinion its a sound thats not boomy in bass, human voice reslistic & treble is sweet. Enough separation but not sterlie and detscted. Sounds musical & whatever music is played you dont get hung up on Audiophile Sound Quality but just a fair rendition. Trust me I have done/tried/bought/listened to high end equipment & cabling & it just fatigues you but now I have scaled down to ensure what I call decent musical tone.
Nass Khan I I am more into Hindi music up to the late 80’s. First problem is that it’s poorly recorded in the first place compared to in the West, Japan or South Korea. Mics, recording equipment and sound engeeniers are poor. Hindi recording improved every 10 years. A R Rehman’s recording are superb. So I have to go by what I have. I am enjoying my recent vinyl collections by changing cartridges and speakers. Best I have heard up to now is heresy IV. For medium to slow paced music. Hindi music akin to western pop
Probably it is suppressing the off frequencies (20Khz, 220hz) and amping it all up, so the 17khz and 50hz is dominant.
It's been a long time since this video came out, but I have a question...
If i have a very good tube dac, will i benefit from replacing my solid-state preamp to a tube based preamp?
My monos are a very good solid state amps.
Thanks allot 🙏
I’ve never used a pre-amp. 🙈
If it adds something (even something benevolent) , it's no longer HiFi , and we are entering the zone of euphonics . The question no longer is if it truefully replicates the source but if it sounds good .
Could you make a 32 channel digital live PA mixer with the best pre-amp design
It's not rocket science, many people like the sound of tube amplifiers, preamplifers, or whatever because of their more euphonic sound because of the different transfer function of tubes versus transistors and the distortions arising from the use of transformers. The net effect is a more pleasing harmonious sound from the addition of pleasing harmonics. Also in the case of power amplifiers, the lower damping factor also adds some harmonic distortion due to the reactance of the speaker being less damped. Personally I prefer to preserve the audio signal and control any addition of sound effects via EQ or more sophisticated psychoacoustic algorithm based methods.
In my opinion the added harmonics of the tubes always make a better sound!
Anyone who knows a bit about sound knows that everything you run the sound through will affect sounds in some way
It is best to run the sound through the least possible equipment. Without a preamplifier is the best but not always the most practical!
All equipment has its own sound type and no one sounds the same!
If you are using a CD player with built-in volume adjustment or a computer or other equipment with your own volume adjustment with high enough output volume then you do not need pre-amplified!
@Fat Rat Yes I know. Now I have the Denon DCD 2560 GOLD which was the special edition of the second largest CD player of the time and Denon DCD3300 which was the largest one at that time!
I run everything through a DAC and then into the amplifier that has the built-in preamplifier.
Shengya A-206
As far as i know all BOSS pedals haves a buffers. The TRUE BYPASS is a pile of garbage. My frnds to me to always have at leest 1 pedal with a buffers on the pedalbroads. THNALE YOU AND TBBS UPS!
I was running my Adcom cd player (30 +yrs old) into my Adcom amp ( same age) which drove my snell c2 mk2 speakers ( also over 30yrs.old ), that is until Paul said the DACs in CD sucked. Soo I bought a used Emotiva preamp/DAC which now connects to the amp. Resulting in improvement in detail, soundstage and imaging as well as volume. So my question why aren't Preamp/DAC configurations more common as it seems a good way to go? is the notion of separates as better applicable here?
As an aside I was going to upgrade my amp with the PS Audio Stella s300 but given the economic uncertainty of the impact of covid 19 my purchase was put on hold. I intend to support PS Audio and Emotiva as they are supporting their staff in these difficult times, the loyalty to their workers is not lost on me. It is sad that there are few audio stores to audition gear and while it can't get easier then the return policy of PS Audio it pales in comparison to going to a store. I just heard Paul's lament on the decline of shows, it seems to me the audio industry is committing suicide. How the hell am I going to choose between a few competing companies( ps audio emotiva shiits for example) without hearing their gear. What am I going to do order their amps at the same time then return the ones I don't like I don't think so! But this view is from a middle-class guy not some rich cat with lots of disposable income.
I’m happy with my stealth dc-1... it gets the job done and xlr outs = win
I think, maybe, a preamp works like a buffer pedal in a guitar pedal chain. It may change the sound, but it will keep the signal strong.
Thanke you Mine frends! As fasas I know, all BOSS pedals have a buffers. I have heard the differnece when 8 pedals together with and witholu a BUFFER. I don tlike the TURE BYPASS. It ends up being a real tone suckers. My frends tol ame to have at least 1 buffer pedal in the signal paths. Only down side is if the power gets stuf off t the pedal such as 9 volt transformer stop working, then no signal! THAKN YOU, YOUA RE TEH GOODS FRENDS., THUMBBSS UPS!
I've tried the audio output from my Fetch tv tuner/ recorder direct to my power amp and it trumps the sound going through my pre amp which is all vacuum tube design
I think this has something to do with linearity of the output.
Maybe it’s better to push the DAC and preamp amplification only 50% than pushing only the DAC output for 100%
But please don’t fall for the charms of tubes... it’s so superficial.
@Fat Rat Ok Boomer 😜
at ASR they cynically call preamps "effects boxes"
How many times is this question asked/answered on this channel alone?
hi paul.im trying to get hold of a bhk pre to go with the dac and 250 amp back in the uk .nobody appears to have one..can kevin get hold of one for me to test? cheers
Does adding a bhk preamp to the direcstream play louder than the dac alone (to the power amps)?
Well less Ripple I suppose amperage would be a factor would be more
Run your DAC through a Tape Deck get a tape make a loop run dac into the type the out of the Tape Deck into your active speaker or amplifier.
you probably haven't got real to reel so you probably have to add a washer glued on the spool to the Tape otherwise you get too much Flutter. Even running in and out of the circuitry will give you some benefit but you add some noise depends on the condition quality of deck. Check your voltage as well on your DAC solid-state amps prefer low voltage 1 volt might be better tube amplifiers prefer 3 volts setting between 1 and 3 unbalanced. this means turning it off and holding the buttons putting it back on it should flash to the sequence you need look in your manual to change output voltage. Run it 1 volt standard is 2 volts. 3 volts valve amps
Passive pre-amp ? Those are really good to !
So yesterday I was working to sort my new amp setup and for one config I removed the preamp from the food chain (so I could use all balanced connections) and use the volume on the source via phone remote. I forgot I had the gain all the way up on both amps. I made mistake and went instantly to max volume. Yeah... 1260 watts... instantly... loud... no, really really loud.... So, for me, I'll stick with a preamp in there for, at least, the better/safer volume control...
@Fat Rat I had a variable gain and I started at a low volume, just saying it was digital and harder to control (and I double tapped and that's the command for set to 0 db...)
Good job
Is it possible that some CD's are recorded poorly? I have some store bought CD's that just sound "muddy" no matter in what CD Player or system I play it in.
Very much true.
@Fat Rat Probably so high, they need to turn up the volume all the way to 11 and that's why we have crap CD quality. Some vinyl, too. Such a shame.
@Fat Rat Ha, ha! No doubt.
For well over a decade i used a Conrad Johnson PV10 preamp which is all tube, I used it as much for the great phono preamp it had as the great sounding preamp sound (compared to a solid state Parasound preamp of the early aughts). I replaced the CJ a couple of years back with a Rogue Audio RP5 which has a great sound, I don't use the internal solid state phon section because I find it too dark - very quiet but dark sounding. I use a homebrew La Pacifica that uses Jfets and find that much more open sounding.
Maybe some of the difference in preamp vs no preamp has to do with the output impedance of some components (esp older ones). A higher output impedance might cause the cables to have more effect on the sound of the entire chain.
Ultimately, one still has to amplify the signal from line level out of the source, to a level sufficient to power their speakers. By omitting the pre-amp your aren't (and pardon the pun) gaining anything. All the gain now happens in the power amp.
If the loudspeakers aren’t active, do I need a preamp? How do I know if just the amp is enough?
Did *measuring* the pre-amp's output ever cross your mind?
What if you used a tube power amp?
I have a Shanling CD player with a variable output. I tried it direct to my Bryston power amp thinking I would have a better sound since my Adcom preamp was no longer in the path. The result....meh. Reinserted my preamp and it was a much more open and revealing. There are no tubes in the preamp or amp.
@Fat Rat The Shanling has only one output. My point was that the preamp included in the path still made a positive difference (output on the CD at max)
@Fat Rat it did and the difference was not subtle!
There can be only one.....Mark Levinson No.32 Reference 💯🎵🎶👌
I thought most devices had a preamp of some sort. ( excluding some phono players & amplifiers without preamps)
This is my favourite video on all the TH-cam. The head of the audioequipment company and a life-long audiophile admits that he does not know why preamp might improve the sound of an audio-system. You can not beat that. Respect to you Paul, I am sure 99% of audio-geeks would pull an answer to that out of their a**, but not you my man, not you. You only say what you know.
Bang a Gong....
The never ending A sounds better than B...
The subjective/ objective listening experience is fraught with anomolies..
We would all be driving the same car if there was actually a best...
The best example I give is listening to "Satisfaction" driving in a Corvette with a top down out of an FM radio and it just sounds fantastic, making me want to dance....
Can my one watt Musical Fidelity vCan 1 headphone amplifier be used as a preamplifier?
I too doubted adding a preamp would do anything positive. IMHO....a (tube) preamp added “bloom” or “life” to the sound probably by lifting the input voltages going into the power amp.....and probably also by adding just enough 2nd order harmonic distortion to be pleasurable
In other words pream is a miracle
The preamp question reminds me the discussion battle about adding Benchmark LA4 preamp in the chain can improve system SNR. (www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-benchmark-hpa4-headphone-amp-pre.8141 . The thread starts with measuring and discussing HPA4, somehow turns into if LA4 will improve SNR.
A bit like asking: is a marriage better with a prenup or no prenup, signed before the wedding? As my lawyer friends tell me, "it depends ... ".
Was it constlation?
Better is not best, which is really what Paul is saying.
it’s called placebo, Paul
I think, no matter how impartial you may think Paul is, asking a CEO of a company who sells preamps whether you should buy/use a preamp is going to have some level of bias. If you walk into a car dealership and ask them if you should buy a car from them, what do you think they’d say?
Fat Rat I did, in my younger years, ask about taking a test drive at a dealership and the salesman said to me “Only if you’re ready to buy it right now”. Well I WAS looking for another car (who goes car shopping for fun?), so I thought that was a bad sign. So I left.
Anybody know where I can find video or photos showing how to connect the DirectStream DAC directly to a power amplifier with a (non REL) subwoofer? Thanks!
Depending on your amps’s inputs, you could get a pair of XLR-to-RCA cables in order to use both audio outputs on the DS; don’t both types of outputs on the DS work at the same time? Or you could get an RCA splitter adaptor and run two different lines for the amp and sub. Not elegant solutions, but both should work well, as long as you’re not running long distances.
Same- tube pre amp- the sound is smooth yet detailed with more space around instruments and less fatiguing sound.
You dont have to spend BHK money to get it either.
www.schiit.co.uk/Schiit-Freya
Digital attenuation is bad, and I'm not going to lie, i enjoy the colour of my active kinki preamp.
The audiophile way would be a passive preamp but i don't want to be an audiophile.
The audiophile way is to enjoy the system you enjoy.
If the preamp has better volume attenuation that will make it sound better if a DAC has a sub par attenuation.
@Fat Rat What has this to do with my comment?
@Fat Rat I have no separated preamp if that is what you mean. I have integrated DAC, Preamp and Amplifier, all in one.
@Fat Rat But still I don't understand this has anything to do with Hegel.
@Fat Rat Hegel preamp and Hegel DAC actually sounds better than the DAC and Pream that I have in my Integrated amp. But both of them cost about the same as my amp for each of them. Hegel makes very good integrated and separate components.
@Fat Rat I have the H390, but I guess I might have already told that. I'm very happy with it. And I see no reason to exchange any device in my system at the current time.
why not just replace the tubes for something else in a bhk and then see if it sounds different.you'll know then what it is..
When you have finally transitioned to pure digital audio, you don't need a preamp. A DAC output is line level and a power amp input is also line level. Of course a well designed DAC can drive a power amp directly. Justifying a pre-amp with the argument that you need volume control is somewhat bogus. Volume control is trivial to do in a DAC. I really would love to see a PS Audio solid DAC that includes a high-performance DSP (loudness, EQ, room calibration etc. with DIGITAL BYPASS option) and top-notch analog volume control. Call it whatever (pre-amp or DAC).
I forgot this important point: it also needs a subwoofer output.
My frends told me it was perfectly fines to plug in his krell intio the POWERS AMPS na control the sould level with the remote control output level of the KRELL. I honestly don know if ti was a CD player ot transport and converter. But thats what he told me. For guitares, Mister Scott Grove uses a Morley OPTILCA PEDAL. I hav enot true dit ye because I done hav emonmey for it yet. I will some day into the EFFECTS RETURN of the bass amp. THANKES TYOU AND THUMBB SUPS!
@@ThinkingBetter it needs two even
Jan Wa You mean two sub outputs?
@Fat Rat And adjustable x-over frequency.
Or just integrate a full crossover module into it that allows you to draw your own bode plot.
should always use a preamp. Variable output from a DAC doesn't sound as good.
please do a video on this!
Paul, I love the videos and I've been watching them from the beginning but I've started to skip them because you're answering the same question for the 2nd or 3rd time. You've mentioned several times that you've received a huge number of questions. If that's the case surely there's no reason to answer the same question multiple times.
What sounds better, a Triode or a Pentode?
A quindeciode
A flux capacitor..
@@poserwanabe Or a "magtrometer" 😅
@@QoraxAudio 😂😆🤣
IMHO, triode. That's a general statement though, all circuits are unique. My amp has a switch that will pick either triode or pentode (Primaluna). Triode sounds way better but it gives about 1/2 the power. I use triode until I need to really rock out, then it's pentode.
Not gain?
I see an Uber sticker on the desk? Are you taking Ask Paul on the road?
In my experience, after speakers, a preamp makes the biggest difference to sound
Be glad you are not a mechanic, you will shake your head every day. There are things made to 'work' in the automotive engineering world that don't make sense but work well.
its cause nothing sounds close to original...so need gear to color the signal
When in doubt....no preamp.
It does not sound better, it sounds different. Tubes give a roundy feeling but are decreasing the definition. Why is this video promoting high grade tube preamps? Is it because PS Audio is producing high grade tube preamps?
Oh preamp. I pernounced it ouw it sounded and it through me off. Preemp is how i said it and im not at fault. God bless english