When storytelling GOES WRONG | Andor vs Ahsoka
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.พ. 2024
- Star Wars is back on form, that is to say. It's taken a drop since Andor. No, that's not an opinion it's fact. Ahsoka is the newest show and... it has some problems. Here we compare a scene from both shows as they are very similar in structure.
- ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Ironically by not really feeling "Star Wars", Andor ends up feeling far more faithful to the world that's been established for the past thirty plus years.
Do more Andor PLEASE!!
Andor is pure art ❤
I’m such a fan of these Andor breakdowns. What a fantastic show.
This introduction to Andor calls us back to his introduction in Rogue One as someone who is willing to get dirty when the situation calls for it. It shows us he is a morally gray character even if we might agree with his use of self-defense in this scene. This scene also shows us that this show is going to ask difficult questions about how far these characters are willing to go, and that’s a thread throughout the rest of the show.
One interesting and direct comparison to Ahsoka’s opening is the full opening to Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Ark. We see Indy in shadow, we see his capabilities when he whips that gun out of someone’s hand, and we see him face dangers as he goes through the temple. And we know how important this object is because there is a shot of him carefully balancing the sandbag, dumping out some sand, and then timing his swap. Ahsoka immediately starts turning pillars without any tension. One opening builds tension while the other disposes of tension as a waste of time.
Wrestling has done this a lot, too. Someone is talking in the ring, calling another wrestler a wanker, and then that opponent’s music hits and the initial wrestler stares with the same dull expression as Ahsoka basically burying the tension and the undermining the moment.
"You pay at the end..." could also be interpreted as foreshadowing of Andor's eventual fate at the end of Rogue One, in addition to illustrating that he's not a regular in this establishment.
I feel like this must absolutely be deliberate as the opening line: we all pay at the end, and it could be referring to Andor, to the Empire, to the rebellion. We all pay for the consequences of our decisions and actions.
I really enjoy your analysis! Please do more Andor/other SW shows comparison 🙏
A little side note: when Andor screams at the guard “Tell me what to do” he is being angry and sarcastic, because he says also: “Let’s hear it, boss!” He means something like “now when I hold the gun, you wouldn’t order me, would ya?”
Andor is simply masterful 💖 Expert analysis y'all! 💯
Hope you guys do a breakdown of Nemik and how big his impact is on Andors character development. There's alot of great characters in this show and I feel like he often gets left outside the spotlight
Your breakdown of the opening scene of Andor is great! But more than just the points you've made about dialogue, character, etc, *thematically* the opening sequence also is entirely and cleverly on point: Cassian is put in a situation where there are no good options for him, and in fact the best option appears to be violent resistance. Isn't that more or less the whole show? And the writers set that up from the very opening scene. So so good.
Great video!!! Andor in my eyes was perfect! Storm troopers that actually hit the mark when they shoot! Empire is scary in Andor!!!
Every time I watch one of your videos, I go back and rewatch all of your videos. Just to remind myself that there are still people who care about the details of storytelling and characters, who have the patience to have an in-depth discussion about a single scene and its importance for the story that follows. Another great discussion about a show that demonstrates just how wasted the Star Wars IP has been in the last decade. If only these writers could have had a crack at Rings of Power
You guys give easily the best commentary on these shows that I've found, especially on the way you break down Andor. You pick up on so much of the nuance and detail. I wish i could join in on these conversations with you, because you make observations that I wish I were seeing in other reviews of the show.
I totally agree with you two. Even good guys with unimpeachable moral clarity and righteousness can have trepidation and nervousness. Andor is brilliant but Ahsoka was is a Dave Filoni project and Dave Filoni makes cartoons. Always. Filoni is extremely over rated.
I disagree with both of you a little, I don't think Andor even had the 300, But he knew he couldn't go to jail, so he had to lure at least one of them closer.
Agree. I don’t think he has any money because he is in debt to everyone on Ferrix.
Yes. Also, when he says, "Tell me what to do.", I interpreted it as him threatening him out of adrenaline. Basically, 'give me a reason to pull the trigger'. I do agree that he didn't want to kill him. When the guy starts bargaining for his life, you can see Andor's face change as he comes to his murderous conclusion. He kills a man in cold blood, but the show does such a good job of putting you in Andor's shoes. You feel his desperation. You cringe, as he pulls the trigger, but think, "Yeah. It had to be done." So much pay off for setting the scene.
The Ahsoka section underlines what’s wrong with the Force power creep - it literally can be used to explain anything that makes no sense.
The thing is good writers would still respect the fact that Jedi Knights are knights, careful, pensive, yet decisive warriors. They wouldn’t act, behave, nor carry themselves in a careless manner. The Force or not😊
This definitely deserves more views. If you made more videos like these about the Star Wars shows, I would definitely watch. It's interesting to see two guys on a couch are easily able to point out the problems with the drivel Disney's been putting out.
I'm not sure whether Rosario Dawson was told to act like this by Dave Filoni or if she decided to do it like this. Either way, neither are good. Mauler refers to Brie Larson's Captain Marvel as "plank" but my god, this is "log". Everything is sluggish, everything drags, no buildup, no suspense, no tension, no emotion, just hardwood.
Diego Luna had the entire backstory of Andor already written down for himself before they actually started shooting it. He knows his own role in and out which makes portraying it so much easier to perform. He doesn't just act, he becomes the character which makes his emotions just so much more palpable when shown on screen.
It's a shame really since I started watching Ahsoka before Andor. Had I known how good Andor would turn out to be I would have watched it a lot sooner. But I guess that's Disney fatigue kicking in.
It seems that everyone involved in Andor cared about the project.
Yeah, I very much agree. Rosario Dawson has been so wooden throughout the entire Ahsoka show. Her stoicism comes across as complete emotional disengagement which is not what you want from a main character. After all, if the hero acts like she doesn't care half the time, why should we?
@@dereklopez9060It seems to me that what works well in cartoon writing, storytelling & filmmaking just falls apart when you graduate to live action where your skill-deficiencies get exposed. That said, Filoni cartoons are far different from anime, manga or whatever Arcane & Blue Eye Samurai was.
Brie Larson was on Craig Ferguson’s late night show a few times, and she was always animated and damn funny. Somebody told her to be wooden.
@@CantankerousDave Of course, I mean, she is an oscarwinner after all. She knows how to act, unfortunately directions are not always for the better. Especially in current climate where a lot of showrunners/directors are talentless hacks
I think there is validity in what Steve said about not watching these film “during their prime”.
The hype built from either 1) the anticipation or 2) from the recommendations of loved ones (if one were too young when the films were released) can really affect how we experience these movies. These biases allow us to sometimes see these movies through rose-colored glasses and that’s my experience with the original trilogy. Looking back, objectively, those movies do have a lot of flaws but I still enjoy them because they are tied to my past while Steve experiences them with the absence of nostalgia.
I hope he does a video to back up that claim, because I'm pretty sure his arguments are going to fall apart. There are still people who have never seen star wars, and totally absent of any rose tinted nostalgia goggles from watching as a child, they still find them very good when they finally watch them. Even with the people who don't like them, the reason is almost never that they're 'boring' (which is what he so adamantly claims). I grew up as the prequels came out and over the years found myself enjoying them less and less due to the nostalgia fading away, but that never happened with the original trilogy. If there were significant objective flaws with the trilogy it wouldn't have held up this well to people who are only seeing it for the first time now. I'm willing to bet that he has reactionary nostalgia for them, meaning he came into the movies with the full weight of the reputation they had, and convinced himself that they're overhyped old movies that aged badly and everyone else is probably seeing them wrong.
@@restitvtororbis5330 At the end of the day, everyone enjoys things differently. If this guy says he finds most Star Wars boring, then he finds it boring. There isn't really a way to back up his claim other than to go through the movies scene by scene and say that he found it boring for whatever reason. His argument can't fall apart because it isn't an argument, it's an opinion on the quality of a piece of art.
I don't find them boring, but I definitely believe the OT movies are overhyped. I don't think they're bad, I actually think they're pretty good, but they aren't exactly cinematic masterpieces. They have lots of issues with things like acting, dialogue, and choreography just to name a few. None of the issues are big enough to ruin the movies entirely, but they are noticeable flaws that a lot of SW fans don't even seem to acknowledge. This is what makes me believe they have too many emotions tied up in the movies to think critically about them.
The main character should aim to be a surrogate for the audience; make the viewer experience each emotion through the protagonist, like with Frodo, Luke, etc. The hyper-competent character trope can be an interesting one, but only as a supporting character, never the main.
As an audience member, its tough to know what you're suppose feel when the MC doesn't feel anything. Matrix fell to the same trap in its sequels
Great detail analysis !!
More, please !!
Great job, guys, this is a fantastic breakdown.
Great analysis, lads. I couldn't drag myself into finishing Ahsoka S1, the space whales was as far as I got, then I realised I didn't care about any character at all or was interested in what could happen.
Very nice. Would love to see more comparisons between Ashoka & Andor. Such as what the heck are the motivations of Baylon Skul and why should I care?
No, you are not alone! 😊 Great discussion and analysis, I left a subscription.
Jamming and Standard Jedi Protocols:
I think that the comms were jammed, and Ahsoka was commenting that if the ship had been closer, then the transmission would have been more clear DESPITE the jamming. Of course, not being underground while you try to transmit helps, too.
The standard practice makes sense in a way: if you are going to explore something potentially dangerous, you don't want your ship to be right there to be spotted and possibly destroyed. That being said, as soon as the jamming was detected, the droid (Hun-yang? something like that) should have started flying closer because clearly something was wrong. Since everything here happens at the speed of Plot Convenience, we don't know if that is what he was doing already or if he waited until he got the luckily now unjammed (or if being charitable, aboveground) call.
I can understand Ashoka being unconcerned with droids ambushing her, she did get most of her training during the Clone Wars where she fought droids constantly. Doesn't make things better, just can make sense.
It would be out of character for her, but what if during the puzzle bit, she walked up to the depiction of the third person, and she slashed it across the head with her lightsaber? That one action would say so much:
1. She knows exactly what this place is
2. She knows who is depicted
3. She has hostility towards THAT PERSON in particular.
Andlor was so good. I watched it over and over. I couldn't even watch a full espisode of Ashoka.
Ashoka was like a cartoon.
The Ahsoka fandom is nothing more than a section of the fandom that wants all animation re shot in live action. I refer to them as the toon division of the star wars fandom.
21:54 I never got the feeling it was anything Andor did (directly) that killed the first guy. My thought was (and is, still) that it was one of those two last blasts fired while Cassian were struggling to get the gun (or a ricochet, if that's the kind of weapon that result in such, they're in a very narrow space). So, he was indirectly the cause? But then those two buggers were also causing it, by initiating the situation.
Love long form deep dives
Pretty sure Andor didn't have 300 credits. He was bluffing about it.
Would love to see you guys analyse why the isb is actually terrifying in andor aka they're actually competent yet there systems still are a weakness exploited by the likes of luthen and andor
Why the empire is a threat in Andor is a planned video.
this was a lot of fun listening
Great analysis, I was able to pick up some nuggets I missed or had no clue where there. Andor is the show that keeps on giving. The Ahsoka section was nice for laughs. I like Ahsoka but it's not on Andors level of writing.
I think you may have misinterpreted Cassian's comments after he wrests the gun from the guard.
I interpreted it as him mocking him. His comments really sound like he's daring the guy to keep trying on giving him orders now that the tables have turned and HE has the gun. It's a pretty good characterizing detail, I think.
Agreed. "Go on, order me around NOW Big Man!" He's releasing the tension and adrenaline built up when being shaken down by the cops.
Need more breakdown of the human element for all the side characters
Both shows are great in completely different ways.
As an Asian American who watched a lot of kung fu flicks growing up, the beginning of Ahsoka was basically a replica of how one would introduce a kung fu master. No need to use logic cause if it's cool it's cool. If the audience goes in already thinking about Ahsoka as this Jedi badass who will go through the entire show kicking ass, this kind of intro actually make some sense. Of course, in a kung fu flick you'd expect the badass protagonist to be a bit more outwardly showy. Like when the first droid shows up he'll be like "I know there are more of you, just come at me together so I can get this over quickly." Or he'd scoff at the stairway 10 feet away and decide dropping down directly just because he can. Perhaps Ahsoka being a Jedi prevent her from showing that kind of arrogance you expect from this kind of scene. But I can definitely see how without her showing that kind of arrogance the character can feel very bland.
I found Andor to be insufferable and the most boring Star Wars disney have made... This review/analysis however I found to be entertaining and well made. Funny how that works. Subscribed!
Andor is well paced and has good writing. You don't need high stakes, force and lightsabers for an interesting Star Wars show.
How far did you get? The first two episodes are quite slow, mostly character and location setup, and the editing is a little wierd. It really picks up towards the end of episode 3.
I know some friends who stopped at e2 saying it was boring, then watched the rest and loved it.
Thanks very much!
That clip in the first minute, was that an actual real time clip from the show? Or was that edited? Please tell me that was edited together for comic effect.
Real time. The only edit was adding the Monty Python stuff.
I liked Ahsoka but it’s not anywhere near the level of maturity, grit and development found in Andor. Andor is the best SW project since Disney acquired SW.
In defense of the droids in Ass, they may have been sent knowing they were specifically fighting a Jedi, and knew that guns would not work, hence they bring electric spears to block the lightsabers.
But one of them bought a gun? And in the prequels we see that Jedi can easily be gunned down if caught unawares. If they had ambushed with gunfire she'd be dead.
@@Media-Musings Yea that’s fair. Maybe the one brought the gun to deal with any interlopers idk. But we do know that Ashoka was trained to block blaster fire from all sides, and she’s quite good at it (this is coming from Tales of the Jedi). It’s possible the droids knew this, but then that raises the question of how the fuck they know that.
@Artemie-np3qu I feel that's the biggest problem right there. Even if we give an overly good faith answer (one that certainly doesn't satisfy me) it ultimately raises more difficult questions. 😅 because you also have the issue that if they knew how good a fighter she is, why send 4/5 droids and not dozens?
@@Media-Musings I mean, they probably ran out of budget so they could only send 5 lol
@@Artemie-np3qu You've solved it!!! 😆
So the force ability Ahsoka is using her is Psychometry. It was first introduced in the Clone Wars TV show and she has never shown to have this ability before. It was most famously portrayed by the character of the Fallen Order games and based on the explanation that was given it should be a rare ability that most people seem to inherently have. Of course, as you guys clearly show, it is super unclear that it is being used. They really should have communicated that better. The games have a small visual effect and the character can hear the audio of what they are witnessing. They do this better later on in the show, but it is really badly done here.
To the point about her doing the lightsaber cut in the floor, it is a reference to her doing the same thing in the Clone Wars. It is pure fan service and has not practical reason why she did that in the universe of the show.
Thanks for clearing that up! It helps us understand the intention and that is something used before.
I watched it but I was on my phone from the first 10 minutes for 90% of the show
There is really no comparison when it comes to Andor. It's simply next level story telling, and the other D+ shows just don't get it.
Ahsoka is SHIT!!!!!! Andor is GREAT!!!
Please do an analysis of an action scene. Action in Ashoka is soooooooooo bad 😂😂
Good job explaining why Andor works, bad job explaining the problems with Ahsoka. Little nitpicks about the fight scene are not ultimately why the show doesn't work. The choreography needs work, for sure, but it's the plotting and characters that really hurt it.
Thanks mate. And yes, Ahsokas issues go far deeper than we do here.
This video is more about comparing the 2 scenes which are structurally similar and intended to introduce our main characters to the audience. We have started work on breaking down Ahsokas issues a bit more for a future video. Hope you'll stick around. 😁
@@Media-MusingsReally looking forward to it!
You abscribing competency to the cop smacking Andor in the head with the gun to keep him from turning is dumb. It's giving Andor the exact location of the gun so he doesn't need to see it to make his first move.
Not really? Cassian can hear what side the blaster is on, he knows who is holding the blaster and where they are standing and the angle of the muzzle against his head. It's not hard to intuit "big guy, right handed, my left side" in that context.
In turn though, the use of force shows a willingness to use force, disincentivizes any attempt to act without permission. It's controlling the situation. It is exactly what you do when controlling a situation through force.
We see cops pistol whipping detained suspects & innocent bystanders on released bodycam videos all the time.
I wasn't on tik tok or anything, I watched the whole show but I still found it boring. I liked it more than Ahsoka which I found awful, but still boring IN MY OPINION.
Ahsoka defense squad for the sake of it:
She cut her way down because the runes she uncovered told her the place she was seeking was beneath her, presumably, she'd have some knowledge of the architecture.
The excessively long Apple of Eden retrieval scene was to build up tension for the fight scene as well as further establish how calm and collected Ahsoka has become, it may have succeeded in doing either.
Firearms are almost worse than useless against Jedi in SW because whatever blaster bolts are made of can be reflected right back -and that's what makes any of the prequel scenes where Jedi are gunned down after all so great but never mind that-
A valiant attempt, my good friend.
I don’t think the Apple of Eden scene builds tension to the fight because we don’t know the fight is coming. One important filmmaking idea that Alfred Hitchcock talked about was the bomb under the table. If you have 2 characters talking and a bomb goes off there is no suspense or tension, but it you tell the audience there is a bomb that will go off in 5 minutes, now you’ve built tension and suspense into the scene because the audience knows something is wrong but not when it will happen.
I’d look to the introduction of Indiana Jones, which is in a similar situation as Ahsoka: ancient relic, ancient temple, surprise danger. We see Indy frequently tested by the situations and even test them himself. Ahsoka touches the ground and then tornados into the temple with her lightsabers but there is nothing to show us what she is thinking in the moment. Star Wars does this a lot. Makes the audience fill in the gaps with random head canon since there isn’t enough to grab on to.
I know you were only defending for the sake of it. I just wanted to offer some thoughts in rebuttal.
Knowing the place she was looking for changes nothing.
She didn't know how far was the drop. She didn't know if there was anything below her.
Also, why would she have knowledge of the architecture?
After all, what temple was that? It had the coordinates to another Galaxy. So it was not a Jedi temple. Why would she know it?
In fact, why going to another Galaxy always leads you to a specific planet? Don't star systems orbit the center of the other Galaxy? Why the other Galaxy is a single planet?
What a thankless task.
I really enjoyed your breakdown of the andor scene. I really did not enjoy your breakdown of the asokha scene. It felt gross and meanspirited. I still more or less agree with your premise/conclusion. .02
This show sucked and i think it shows a lot of the things people like Critical Drinker have been complaining. Also Galadriel.
The writers and CEOs simply want to empower female characters for the sake of it, without really caring if the show will be good or make sense. They are nearly flawless, must be badasses and the development arch sucks.
Not even women can relate with these idiotic characters.
Leia in the New Hope basically takes the gun from her "saviors" and save them.
Vasquez and Ripley in Alien and Aliens are awesome. They are HUMAN!
Who doesn't love Sarah Connor in Terminator?
Hollywood knew how to write great female characters that were empowered, and now when they pay more attention to empowerment than to good stories, they are destroying their female characters (ps: this of course a generalization. Andor itself has several great female characters. Dedra Meero alone has more character than Galadriel, Ahsoka and Rey together.
Then Mon Mothma is awesome, she has many more of the traits i would like to see in a wise Galadriel