I actually really enjoyed the story of the pre-sequel. I interpreted it as a cautionary tale of how anyone could fall from grace, no matter how well intentioned or altruistic they may have been.
It's definitely still an enjoyable story! Even if I thought it was kinda weak if I looked at it too hard, I still thought it was a fun story to experience and carried that "anyone can be corrupted" idea really well. :)
The story of Jack is the story of a sociopath discovering his true nature. Jack does not start off as a hero. He already has his supervillian lair, enslaved his daughter and used the eye of the destroyer to create his pet Death Star. He's a grandiose narcissist and narcissists love the validation of others. They manipulate people around themselves and lure them into abusive relationships where they make you feel like you are the bad guy. Handoms Jack is a textbook narcissist and the Pre Sequel shows how he gradually loses his mask... until he got a new physical one, ending his transformation. People like Jack are not born, they are enabled by their surroundings. What TPS does well is to draw comparisons with Jack. Merrif had the same background as Jack, being ex-Hyperion but didn't turn evil (Jack recognizes the similarities but justifies his actions because "he's funny"). The Merrif is easily the most justifyable murder in the game, but this is by intention. Felicity in her last moments is foreshadowing what happens to Jack (literally screaming that you are just a bunch of Scavs and need to be eradicated). Jack tells us that he's sorry but not late after he openly tells you his enjoyment of erasing AIs and giving them new meaning. And Zarpedon is just Jack in reverse. She seems like a villian at first, but would sacrifice herself for the greater good. Jack only sacrifices others and does so in spades. Wilhelm, Felicity, the scientists etc.
so, i didnt play borderlands ever until i bought the handsome collection during 2020, and played the games in what i heard was chrono order because i wanted the best possible story, and honestly its hard to agree with alot of the points in the video presequel, 1 and 2 tell the story of how revenge and lust for power destroys people, whether that be psychos or jack himself, revenge to tthe nth degree has only led to death, incorporating tales in aswell only helps prove that point, 'take a look around you rhys, this is what success looks like, you'll see, after awhile you start to measure by the size of the pile of destruction around you. You've gotta break it down to build it back up." jack started as someone healing from his pain, growing to find a wife, have a kid, get a cushy job, but his incessant need to "be the hero" only led him to madness, i think the big turning point of this for him isnt the merrif, but towards the end when he chucks the scientists out of the airlock, because its the first notable time i remember him just killing for both the sake of watching them die, and out of a need to be that hero he craves, pre-sequel didnt ruin the whole "grandmother abused him" thing but reinforced it by showing his need for validation, its why he wants to be the hero and after being betrayed by moxxie and lillith it only took him farther, seeing that his grandmother who was a bandit abused him and bertrayed him, he equates everyone who does this to him as bandits, and tries to "save" pandora by wiping out ALL bandits, but with having hyperion behind him and having lost most of everything he cares about, he starts taking that too far, especially when his wife ends up dying, he starts using angel as a means to an end idk, im not a video essayist and definately dont want to just put down your points, but as someone who had their first go through the series in story order, rather than when the games came out, it very obviously reads as someone who played two before pre sequel, and so i find it difficult to agree with the points because we have diffrent ideas of the story, i cant make asumptions fully on how you see it, but to me, borderlands is the story of someone who WAS the hero, and had good itentions, but after the praise, after the betrayals, and after being given power, stopped looking anywhere but his idea of foward, a real icarus jack is, a hero, but a hero who flew too close to the sun, and much like lucifer, fell deeo to the pits of hell after spiting god
also on a video side, really love the content, really engaging, never has there been a video on youtube that has made me feel the need to comment something, only critisim i have is to just remember some people use headphones, and so that scream during tales's handdick scene really hurt, though i understand including it full volume to play up the comedy, just try giving a headphone user warning next time around, otherwise, love the video, cant wait to see more from you
I definitely see where you're coming from with all of this, and thanks so much for the comment! Like I said, I was really curious to see how/if the Pre-Sequel shifted peoples' interpretation of Jack and it's really cool to see how differently the story read for you. I completely agree that Jack is kind of an Icarus metaphor as someone that always had ambitions that went well-beyond what he actually needed and always strived more for what he wanted. Which was absolutely the praise of others and sort of entrapping people with the need to rely on him for pretty much everything. I kind of brushed off revenge as a significant part of his story, since the plot holes in the Pre-Sequel and the way it messed up the timeline kinda messed me up a bit, but you're right. It's an important part of his character and how he ended up being so guarded. It doesn't come across to me as putting down my points at all, just sharing why you see it differently and I really appreciate that you took the time to say so. Glad that it got you thinking about him and you still found the video that fun to watch in spite of it all! 😄 (And since I don't wanna flood your notifs, I am *so* sorry about the audio issue! I completely missed that and I'll definitely be keeping a closer eye on peaking the mic in the future! Thanks so much for letting me know!)
@fafnirvt don't worry about apologizing, all content creators start somewhere, and I'm glad you understand that my intentions weren't to attack you and yeah I completely understand overlooking things, there are definitely plot holes, however I think if you had had the chance to play them in order, they'd seem less like plot holes and more just development, i do however agree with the optional echo bit and ESPECIALLY how much it sucked having Nisha just be gutted in a sidequest, honestly would love to see you talk about bl3 sometime and what issues you may or may not have with it, I'm just playing through it now and would love to see a fresh take, especially from someone engaging as you
The main problem with the pre-sequel why couldn’t work to make jack being a good guy from the beginning is that it contradicts what they established already(which becomes a bigger issue in bl3). Jack being a good guy in the pre-sequel(with better writing) could have made sense but some of the side quests and a little of the main story made in bl2 that give a bit of insight for who handsome jack was were already made, it threw that possibility out the window and yet gearbox still try to make a game out it
1:09:10 Have you forgotten what happened in Sir Hammerlock's Big Game Hunt? We destroy 3 of Nakayama's back up AIs, and he says that he has one more copy of the AI that was with him at the plane that crashed, and when he fell down the stairs and just died, we leave him and do nothing with him. Now, Idk how many back up copies of something programmers make, but I thought I would bring this point up.
Oh, crap I did forget about that DLC! That one definitely left it ambiguous enough that I can give the backup a pass then. I've personally never met any programmers that don't have it on both a flash drive and a cloud like GitHub at the minimum, but from what I remember with the way Nakayama was talking about it it'd make sense if that slipped through the cracks.
Pre-Sequel stumbled so RDR2 could run. But seriously, you coulda done stuff like the Merriff by...Doing the same thing, but instead of him pulling the gun, Jack jumps onto the table and starts strangling him, he pulles a gun and then Jack shoots him. Trying to act like it was justified. But I get it, I get it. I guess writers didn't have faith that players couldn't get behind an insane dude getting you to do evil stuff (except they would, hell I'd love that.) Edit: Actually yeah, the Army of Jack idea isn't great because...Okay I love Doctor Who. The Master is this evil, egomaniac with a sometimes-god complex, he's a lot like Jack. Doctor Who being a time-travel thing means that there's an insane amount of self-interaction. The Master has met himself quite a few times, and nearly every time every version of the Master has tried to kill each other. Assuming that Jack was being literal, putting a copy of his AI in all those bodies? That'll turn into all of them killing each other trying to be the top-dog. If he meant "robots that I control" that makes more sense.
Jack's story should have started with John, an ugly, underconfident coder for Hyperion who is forced to protect the company. As you go on and he gains confidence, he gradually gets plastic surgery and changed his appearance, slowly getting more confident with giving orders. It just felt like he was a cocky handsome dude from the get go, but makes no sense when you heat Tassiter's echo log "You're just a hideous code monkey." Just didn't work for me :/
I actually really enjoyed the story of the pre-sequel. I interpreted it as a cautionary tale of how anyone could fall from grace, no matter how well intentioned or altruistic they may have been.
It's definitely still an enjoyable story! Even if I thought it was kinda weak if I looked at it too hard, I still thought it was a fun story to experience and carried that "anyone can be corrupted" idea really well. :)
The story of Jack is the story of a sociopath discovering his true nature. Jack does not start off as a hero. He already has his supervillian lair, enslaved his daughter and used the eye of the destroyer to create his pet Death Star. He's a grandiose narcissist and narcissists love the validation of others. They manipulate people around themselves and lure them into abusive relationships where they make you feel like you are the bad guy. Handoms Jack is a textbook narcissist and the Pre Sequel shows how he gradually loses his mask... until he got a new physical one, ending his transformation.
People like Jack are not born, they are enabled by their surroundings.
What TPS does well is to draw comparisons with Jack. Merrif had the same background as Jack, being ex-Hyperion but didn't turn evil (Jack recognizes the similarities but justifies his actions because "he's funny"). The Merrif is easily the most justifyable murder in the game, but this is by intention.
Felicity in her last moments is foreshadowing what happens to Jack (literally screaming that you are just a bunch of Scavs and need to be eradicated). Jack tells us that he's sorry but not late after he openly tells you his enjoyment of erasing AIs and giving them new meaning.
And Zarpedon is just Jack in reverse. She seems like a villian at first, but would sacrifice herself for the greater good. Jack only sacrifices others and does so in spades. Wilhelm, Felicity, the scientists etc.
so, i didnt play borderlands ever until i bought the handsome collection during 2020, and played the games in what i heard was chrono order because i wanted the best possible story, and honestly its hard to agree with alot of the points in the video
presequel, 1 and 2 tell the story of how revenge and lust for power destroys people, whether that be psychos or jack himself, revenge to tthe nth degree has only led to death, incorporating tales in aswell only helps prove that point, 'take a look around you rhys, this is what success looks like, you'll see, after awhile you start to measure by the size of the pile of destruction around you. You've gotta break it down to build it back up." jack started as someone healing from his pain, growing to find a wife, have a kid, get a cushy job, but his incessant need to "be the hero" only led him to madness, i think the big turning point of this for him isnt the merrif, but towards the end when he chucks the scientists out of the airlock, because its the first notable time i remember him just killing for both the sake of watching them die, and out of a need to be that hero he craves, pre-sequel didnt ruin the whole "grandmother abused him" thing but reinforced it by showing his need for validation, its why he wants to be the hero
and after being betrayed by moxxie and lillith it only took him farther, seeing that his grandmother who was a bandit abused him and bertrayed him, he equates everyone who does this to him as bandits, and tries to "save" pandora by wiping out ALL bandits, but with having hyperion behind him and having lost most of everything he cares about, he starts taking that too far, especially when his wife ends up dying, he starts using angel as a means to an end
idk, im not a video essayist and definately dont want to just put down your points, but as someone who had their first go through the series in story order, rather than when the games came out, it very obviously reads as someone who played two before pre sequel, and so i find it difficult to agree with the points because we have diffrent ideas of the story, i cant make asumptions fully on how you see it, but to me, borderlands is the story of someone who WAS the hero, and had good itentions, but after the praise, after the betrayals, and after being given power, stopped looking anywhere but his idea of foward, a real icarus jack is, a hero, but a hero who flew too close to the sun, and much like lucifer, fell deeo to the pits of hell after spiting god
also on a video side, really love the content, really engaging, never has there been a video on youtube that has made me feel the need to comment something, only critisim i have is to just remember some people use headphones, and so that scream during tales's handdick scene really hurt, though i understand including it full volume to play up the comedy, just try giving a headphone user warning next time around, otherwise, love the video, cant wait to see more from you
I definitely see where you're coming from with all of this, and thanks so much for the comment! Like I said, I was really curious to see how/if the Pre-Sequel shifted peoples' interpretation of Jack and it's really cool to see how differently the story read for you. I completely agree that Jack is kind of an Icarus metaphor as someone that always had ambitions that went well-beyond what he actually needed and always strived more for what he wanted. Which was absolutely the praise of others and sort of entrapping people with the need to rely on him for pretty much everything. I kind of brushed off revenge as a significant part of his story, since the plot holes in the Pre-Sequel and the way it messed up the timeline kinda messed me up a bit, but you're right. It's an important part of his character and how he ended up being so guarded.
It doesn't come across to me as putting down my points at all, just sharing why you see it differently and I really appreciate that you took the time to say so. Glad that it got you thinking about him and you still found the video that fun to watch in spite of it all! 😄
(And since I don't wanna flood your notifs, I am *so* sorry about the audio issue! I completely missed that and I'll definitely be keeping a closer eye on peaking the mic in the future! Thanks so much for letting me know!)
@fafnirvt don't worry about apologizing, all content creators start somewhere, and I'm glad you understand that my intentions weren't to attack you
and yeah I completely understand overlooking things, there are definitely plot holes, however I think if you had had the chance to play them in order, they'd seem less like plot holes and more just development, i do however agree with the optional echo bit and ESPECIALLY how much it sucked having Nisha just be gutted in a sidequest, honestly would love to see you talk about bl3 sometime and what issues you may or may not have with it, I'm just playing through it now and would love to see a fresh take, especially from someone engaging as you
The main problem with the pre-sequel why couldn’t work to make jack being a good guy from the beginning is that it contradicts what they established already(which becomes a bigger issue in bl3). Jack being a good guy in the pre-sequel(with better writing) could have made sense but some of the side quests and a little of the main story made in bl2 that give a bit of insight for who handsome jack was were already made, it threw that possibility out the window and yet gearbox still try to make a game out it
pre-sequel was magic, love Jack and miss him a lot
1:09:10 Have you forgotten what happened in Sir Hammerlock's Big Game Hunt? We destroy 3 of Nakayama's back up AIs, and he says that he has one more copy of the AI that was with him at the plane that crashed, and when he fell down the stairs and just died, we leave him and do nothing with him. Now, Idk how many back up copies of something programmers make, but I thought I would bring this point up.
Oh, crap I did forget about that DLC! That one definitely left it ambiguous enough that I can give the backup a pass then. I've personally never met any programmers that don't have it on both a flash drive and a cloud like GitHub at the minimum, but from what I remember with the way Nakayama was talking about it it'd make sense if that slipped through the cracks.
Pre-Sequel stumbled so RDR2 could run.
But seriously, you coulda done stuff like the Merriff by...Doing the same thing, but instead of him pulling the gun, Jack jumps onto the table and starts strangling him, he pulles a gun and then Jack shoots him. Trying to act like it was justified.
But I get it, I get it. I guess writers didn't have faith that players couldn't get behind an insane dude getting you to do evil stuff (except they would, hell I'd love that.)
Edit: Actually yeah, the Army of Jack idea isn't great because...Okay I love Doctor Who. The Master is this evil, egomaniac with a sometimes-god complex, he's a lot like Jack. Doctor Who being a time-travel thing means that there's an insane amount of self-interaction. The Master has met himself quite a few times, and nearly every time every version of the Master has tried to kill each other.
Assuming that Jack was being literal, putting a copy of his AI in all those bodies? That'll turn into all of them killing each other trying to be the top-dog.
If he meant "robots that I control" that makes more sense.
48:50 cracked me up. lol. great video!
bro, onIy 96 subs and you put this much dedication???? damn.... respect.
Jack's story should have started with John, an ugly, underconfident coder for Hyperion who is forced to protect the company. As you go on and he gains confidence, he gradually gets plastic surgery and changed his appearance, slowly getting more confident with giving orders. It just felt like he was a cocky handsome dude from the get go, but makes no sense when you heat Tassiter's echo log "You're just a hideous code monkey." Just didn't work for me :/
Its Prescule and story is about from Athena's eyes
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