Next we need to do 50 year long ammo storage tests in hot, cold, humid, dry and coastal climates. Shade and no shade. buried in dirt or kept in a garage. Plastic ammo box versus metal ammo box.
+Denchanter357 I get the joke but I happennto be one. I'll admit people have intelligence even if their stuipid in one thing or another as you believe I'm to be both. though even if ya disregard religion entirely a lot of religious book from most sources will have things historically accurate so at the very least their an inconsistent historal account where sometimes there is none for the time. so don't discount them entirely
Yeoman Archer military surplus rounds are stored in unfavorable conditions sometimes. As well as can be older than you in some cases. Also i stored shotgun and rifle ammo in my garage for two years, only have 3 rounds total not fire but those were light primer strikes from rapid fire after my rifle was hot.
@@DroneVideos4k I'm feeling sad because I know tomorrow is gonna be a bad day, I'm out of money and my glass of water is almost gone and I know I'm gonna get a cold next week and I'll probably lose my job and its gonna rain.
I think people forget we only live 70 years. If I get my first handgun at 21, I'll only need to do 10 spring replacements for my fully loaded mags in my entire life, and that's if I do it every five years. Keep your mags loaded. Mags are cheep. Life is not.
70 years? I have patients who are in their 80s and probably more healthy than you if you believe that. 90+ is a constant regular occurrence and most of them are obviously slower but still fully functional.
Thank you for this experiment I'm no longer worried about leaving my glock mags loaded. The amount of creep on the springs is negligible and insignificant in my opinion.
At least, the creep is negligible for the G21 mags that were paired with my Gen 3. Glock has many magazine designs. On the bright side, even my mags which showed lots of creep still functioned fine. I'm not worried either.
nice test . not to mention the fact the age of the actual spring itself and how one spring regardless of how often its used or not will get simular loss of function or creep as you mentioned to that of another, its been my experience that most stoppages due to poor feeding isn't the mags fault but mostly due to poor cleaning of the firearm itself or the gun ho types that over fill the mags
I shot 21 year old Hi Power mags loaded with 21 year old ammo, and had zero problems, but the 13 round Hi Power mags do not smash the springs down nearly as much as other mags. Sig's P228 factory magazines are also only 13 rounds, but the aftermarkets, also made by MecGar just like the Sig factory mags, hold 15 rounds, and they are not nearly as hard to load as Beretta's PX4 Compact mags. Those PX4 springs are really mashed down super hard. That last round is pretty darn tight.
Creep is due to the movement & creation of new dislocations in a material. They are imperfections that allow rows of atoms to move one atomic space at the time. Each dislocation causes a local distortion in the material. Eventually, dislocations will ''pile up'' and get stuck in the strain fields created by each other. In my opinion, the speed of room temperature creep should become less and less over time. *I remember reading that hydrogen made creep worse... and caused embrittlement. I cannot remember why.
Great review sir! I have a Beretta 92-f 9mm used for a service weapon year’s ago. Left it fully loaded and 3 mags topped off. After 23 years sitting it ran amazing. I was surprised, and had concerns about the spring tension as well, but everything was functioning and cycling with no issues
I liked your video. Nicely done. I have called S&W for my M&P, as well as Magpul for my AR. They both told me that they design the mags to be loaded permanently. I love your in depth stuff. Keep em coming.
Great video. Refreshing to hear someone on the interweb in the gun realm that actually does their homework, speaks intelligently, and isn't a super tacticool operator guy... Solid video. Well done
I have a S&W 915 and have kept the mags loaded since I bought it in the 80s. I shoot it about once a week and have never had any malfunctions. However, after watching this excellent video, I'm ordering new springs! Thanks.
I don't suppose may folks have thought of weakening springs from constant storage , rather ,eta when I taught metallurgical physics, in the portion of elastic effect I termed the "coathanger" effect of weakening due to flexing and unflexing heating. This test you did is interesting because you have proven that just compressing a spring shortens it without weakening. Others have already disproved "coathanger" effect as neither the amplitude or rapidity of flexing meets the threshold for weakening one would associate with a hot bending coathanger suddenly breaking. This was an excellent test you conducted and I had not thought of in my classes before I retired. Thanks!
I love seeing the results of long term tests like this. It's the kind of data that is hard to come by. And it's useful in engineering far beyond it's original scope. Good job.
This is excellent. A lot of talk on this very subject, without real data. This is real data, showing that the loaded springs compress (shorten) over time.
I was taught, use (compression & release) caused spring wear and leaving mags loaded wouldn't damage the spring. Clearly springs at max compression degrade. I'll be using your information and will begin changing out my mag springs every 5-7 years depending on use. Thanks for taking the time to actually complete this test.
Make sure you check my work! The conventional wisdom is wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm always right. My G21 mags for instance exhibited very little creep. You probably have guns that are different from mine, and even if not your springs may be from different batches or subcontractors or whatever. Check your loaded mag springs against your practice mags and see what the differences are.
Bend a clothes hanger back and forth in the same bend. What happens??? Nough said...metal IS COMPRIMISED with use and tension. I always thought this was just common sense, really. But, thx for the test that shows, to what extent, they're effected.
Inherited from my Dad what was originally my grandfather's Colt 1908 Vest Pocket (1919 manufacture). I ran through the six rounds it had in it with no problems. It performed well each time I took it to the range until recently. With .25APC hard to find, I buy what is available but the little pistol has started jamming with almost everything I try in it-- ejecting, but not seating the next round. So, today, I received my spring kit. New magazine spring: 5-3/4" Old magazine spring: 4-7/16" About an inch and a quarter! Obviously feels different to load the magazine, and also when seating the magazine. I look forward to my next range time. Hopefully, it will be less picky about what I feed it.
Saiga actually does the same thing with their .308 mags. You can modify the factory 8 round magazine to hold 10 rounds. But there just might be a reason they limited it to 8...
John Moses Browning designed the M1911 spring and follower to only let the original magazines take 7 rounds, even though there was room in the box for 8. It's amazing how even 100+ years ago, they put that kinda thought into gun and magazine design.
Great video! Let me share my experience: I am a LEO who carried a S&W 4006 as my duty weapon. At 0830L on 9/11 my ANG Security Forces unit was activated. For the next year and a half, my duty weapon and spare mags were forgot about in my gun safe. When my Unit was deactivated, I went to the range to qualify before return to LEO duties. While qualifying, I had two of the three S&W mags have multiple issues with feeding and locking back the slide. As a rangemaster myself, the rangemaster who was qualifying me and I decided to experiment in correcting the magazine issues by re-stretching the springs. Doing that corrected one of the two problematic magazines, the other continued to have feeding issues. Although all three of my mags were replaced for duty use, it was an interesting and surprising turn of events. Conversely, when my Security Forces was activated, we broke ot the "wartime" supply of loaded 30 rd. M-4 magazines. (Variety of manufactures.) The were fully loaded for at least 6 years that I know of. When qualifying at the range prior to deployment, we had ZERO issues with any of the mags. Defensor Fortis/molṑn labé
really can't beat your test. bravo! thank you so much for this experiment. I've been keeping a lot of my AR mags loaded and all my pistol mags too. well done. subbed!
Today Aug 8 2020 I have been watching mag vblogs on and off all day. This is the only one that had a structured approach to mag spring "wear" over time. All the others were talk ( BS ). Thank you for the effort it is appreciated.
Very interesting and informative. I appreciate seeing some actual thought put into this. My father and I both carry Winchester Ranger T series, and both of us keep our carry guns loaded to +1 capacity. Very cool to see that function of the magazine is unaffected and that the rounds still work after such time. I was starting to worry that I had been carrying my rounds for too long and wanting to replace them. Considering I've carried OWB and I've only been carrying those rounds for 2 years since last replacement, I suppose they can go a little longer. Keep up the good work mate.
Thank for this video! It's good to know that somebody took the time to make a video about this. Now I don't worry so much about leaving mine loaded but it was a concern at one point. I wondered about my daily carry which is also the LC9.
Amazing real world data comparison! From a theoretical engineering approach, (simply put) yes loading and unloading of a spring and keeping a load on a spring for periods of time will shorten the length (in return life) of the spring. Does this matter though? No, because just about every manufacturer accounts for this, making their springs slightly longer to ensure spring life for their mags. In the end if you ever do exceed the life of your springs (which would take a LONG time to do so), its not that big of a deal to replace the springs or mags. Love to see people actually testing things physically instead of relying on the calculations done by engineers . Subbed!
I always thought the modern manufactures took shortening into consideration, that way once it’s shortened/if shortened it’s more or less where it should be
Interesting and informative, would be interesting to see a "new" magazine (just loaded once before the test) as a control to see if there is a difference between one and one that had been loaded and unloaded many times at the range. Also maybe see one that had been loaded for a long time with 1-2 rounds less than capacity of the magazine.
Very well done put together test and video. As an engineering major I enjoyed seeing a quality examination of this question that I am sure many of us gun owners have wondered at one time or another. You earned a new subscriber. Since this mainly focused on creep it would be interesting to test to see how magazines are if at all susceptible to fatigue given how many times a magazine can be fully loaded and unloaded. I wonder with modern metallurgy, machine design, and CAE most firearm engineers determined a proper endurance limit for this component or if it is one of those parts that they assume is to be replaced every so often. I would hope for the first case even if it cost more.
I think about it this way: A recoil spring or striker spring can last 3-5k rounds, right? Okay. So imagine you have just one ten round magazine and the spring in it wears at the same rate as a recoil/striker spring. Assume you load rounds in the magazine, and always shoot them out. It would take 30-50k rounds to cycle that spring 3-5k times. That's the service life of major components like the frame, slide and barrel... as in, you can fully expect to wear out the gun as fast as you'd wear out the magazine spring through compression and decompression. On top of that, you gotta keep in mind the striker and recoil springs are cycled very rapidly, which will build up heat - on top of being near a source of heat. The magazine spring on the other hand is cycled slowly which allows that heat to dissipate, and it's further away from a heat source. I just can't imagine, assuming quality materials and normal use, that it's realistically possible to wear out a magazine spring through compression cycles.
Excellent data. I've wondered about this for years now and wish I had thought to do something along the same lines when I last purchased some XDM 40 mags for long term hidden placement around the property. I have recently lost one of them and I think I might just order two and perform the same test, although not as extensively. Thanks a lot for this publication!
The humility of this guy... taking over 5 years to produce a test on a controversial topic in the gun community... and he apologizes that he couldn't do more. Great guy, great vid. Liked & Subbed, brother.
Great test report. Well done and not too wordy. I noticed the Glock magazine springs have closer coil spacing at the top of the magazine near the follower. The other magazine springs appear to have evenly spaced coils which are a little cheaper to produce. Perhaps the designers at Glock have had additional studies that led to the design of their springs so they would not be affected as much by being compressed for a long time.
The Glock engineering mojo is certainly on display here! Very little spring creep on those mags. I would have to guess that it's all but impossible to eliminate unless you use a spring that's nowhere near it's compression limit - like a 30rd mag pinned to 10rd, for instance.
Great analysis - I wonder if you had the foresight to measure the springs initially. Shortness is not a significant measure unless the springs were longer to begin with.
Awesome, awesome video. Thank you sir. Maybe something else to consider, the quality of the metal used to make the springs. I like your theory of the designers choosing to possibly go over the spring's designed limit by adding that 'extra' round as a selling point for the firearm
Thanks for the data and the process you went through to obtain it. Like the other comments, it allows one to have much more confidence in thier daily carry when they haven't unloaded the mag in quite a while. (Or their old nightstand 1911, which hasn't been to the range in 4 years. ;)
It is my experience that the "old school" thought came forward thru the military which were still using antiquated 45's and M16A1s until the early 1980's. Heck we used to gather around to see who was shooting the oldest pistol for bragging rights even though we knew they were occasionally rebuilt. The pieces were sloppy and would rattle but would still function however not stretching your magazine springs before using them was asking for a malfunction. There is absolutely no way of knowing how many thousands of rounds went down range from those weapons. And, of course, those magazines were produced by the cheapest bidder. Excellent and thanks!
you made me check!!! lol i have 2 carry mags that have been loaded for 4 yrs and 3 extra range mags that are fairly new i leave unloaded my results were much the same on 40 cal m&p but like yourself no miss fires or fail to feeds thanks for the video!!!
@@ShadetreeArmorer it's crazy how much people will deny certain concepts that are real and true. This is why world politics is such a mess. Either way good on you to find out yourself, the world needs more of us to do that.
thanks for the time taken to make this. really things held up fairly well. better then my experience at least (glock compact and full size 9/40/357 mags most over 8 and up to 12yrs and some 17 mags may be 3coils short length wise (including a wolf +power replacement spring). I rotate springs and magizines because of this and have some that fail to lard the last or last 2 rounds or at the least just intermittent slide lock. .... I have never heard of "spring creep" but it sounds appropriate I've found loading to 30% capacity makes the wear seem incredibly minimal compared to closer to full capacity. and I do believe (it certainly seems like it) a few days/week spring fully unbound outside of a magazine can help temporarily restore some degree of function to the weaker springs....... and thanks again for a rather well documented test and the time to post it for us, cheers!
I'd like to share some of my personal experience as a fellow gunsmith. While the plastic deformation was clearly visible, a more telling test would be to take the assembled mags and measure the upward force on the follower at bullet sized intervals down the length of each and plot the resulting curves against each other. What I believe you would find would be two things: 1: the expected slightly weaker force of the stored-loaded ones (curve of lower amplitude), and 2: A shift in the shape of the curve itself. Because you have good form, it would take a fairly significant problem with the magazine to actually cause a malfunction. However, for the zillions of poor form and weaker shooters, spring problems can be vastly exacerbated. Outside of dirty guns, when a customer tells me a gun is jamming, I always test it myself. I routinely encounter guns that I can put 200 rounds though without a malfunction, but when the customer does the firing, they can't get through a single mag without a problem. All of this is generally due to grip strength and form. However, worn springs can play a big role in the issue as well. When *you* are firing the gun, you are creating essentially optimal conditions for the firearm. It's clean and it's held nearly perfectly still during the recoil. In this scenario the springs really have to only achieve the bare minimum of functionality. With a shooter with weak arms, a weak grip, and poor recoil control, the story is different. Consider what happens in the magazine if the gun is allowed to move four inches vertically during the recoil. Now instead of the mag spring having to push the stack of rounds up only 1/4 of an inch, it now has to achieve that same motion with the full inertia of those round pushing down against the recoil force that is lifting them up those four inches. The weaker spring is far more likely to fail under those conditions. It's often more obvious of a problem with recoil springs. If you stored the gun locked-back for 5 years, it would likely function just fine, but the slide would be battering the crap out of the frame. The idea here is that while the worn spring may be able to perform *some* of its tasks adequately (returning the gun into battery), it won't necessarily be performing *all* of its tasks (absorbing enough recoil to protect the frame). In a nutshell, you aren't wrong here. A good shooter is not likely to experience problems with stored-loaded mags. But there is a reason that every manufacturer recommends replacing all the springs in a self-protection firearm every couple years. Not everyone has perfect form, and if your life depends on it its hard to justify taking that extra risk. Cheers!
@@ShadetreeArmorer Similar to AshburnArmorer's suggestion, but I was hoping you would test the actual spring rate, I'm far from being any kind of expert, but I can't help but wonder if the compressed springs would eventually "relax" so to speak, and lengthen back out to original length, and aren't actually any weaker. I have no idea if this is the case or not, it's probably just as likely that they wouldn't, just wish there was a little more to go on, it's a great test though otherwise, and still a lot better and informative than pure heresay. But if you ever revisit this, pick up a spring rate tester! And on a side note, as an owner of M&P's I'm a little disappointed in how they held up, seems like the Glocks held up a lot better, but as much as I want to like Glocks, I just don't. I don't dispute that they are good, solid guns, but I hate their ergonomics, and I really wanted to like them too because I wanted a 10mm. Was actually going to get an FNH FNS over both as I really like them, M&P was actually my second choice, but then I found some police trade ins with night sights at half the cost of new guns, lol. That could actually make for an interesting video too, testing how much brightness night sights lose over time, I think the generally recommended replacement interval is 10 years, could make for an interesting video though to compare.
@@grindersandgears3445 I didn't have the equipment to take any measurements, but the M&P springs that had been under load were notably weaker feeling when loading and unloading rounds than the ones that weren't. I didn't really notice as dramatic a difference on the LC9 springs despite the fact that they lost a lot of length.
I liked the fact that you did an actual test rather than pontificating about the subject. Having worked in design engineering, I can attest to the fact that a spring can be designed in such a way that it will not exhibit problems in the future. Here are two real life examples: 1) I own a Savage 1915 10-shot semi auto pistol. My father left it loaded in a safe for over 40 years. He never shot it other than when he first got the pistol. After he passed, I took the gun out of the safe and emptied the gun by firing all 10 shots. The gun performed flawlessly. 2) My brother purchased a Ruger 10-22 in 1984. He always leaves the gun unloaded. The spring in the original rotary magazine is worn out and no longer functions properly.
I wish you had new "control" magazines for comparisons. But your dedication in making this is amazing. I wish you had included a brief conclusion at the end. A friend of mine was playing in the attic when he was a kid. His younger brother found his dad's .45 auto from the War. He picked it up, tried to rack the slide back and the ammo failed to load. But he noticed the gun's barrel had drifted to where it was pointed directly at his chest. He was glad the round failed to be chambered (most likely because his brother lacked the strength to rack the slide all the way back, and because his brother didn't know to release it and let it chamber a round. What bothered him the most, however, was that his brother had his finger on the trigger when he did it.) At the time, the War had only been over for about 20 years.
Wow thank you for doing this. No one else will put the time in to do this. So you just hear the theories about it with no data to back it up. Well done video.
Pretty good test. I have loaded my safe guns a few rounds shy of complete for years looking to minimize this issue. That and rotation of the magazines and rounds seems the easiest solution. :)
Great video! I've always wondered this because I usually have my 9mm magazines loaded. Of course every expert on the internet has their own opinion. Your video is the first one I have seen that actually experimented. Great job and thank you!
Replacing the springs in the mags of a gun you're selling to a friend sounds like the right thing to do. Alternatively if you sell one to an enemy take the springs out completely 🧐
I think part of it anyway comes down to material used in the springs. The specific composition in the steel used. Awesome video man, thankyou for the effort. You don't see much of that these days!
Thanks for doing this video. I've heard cases for and against keeping mags loaded. Now I'm pretty comfortable keeping my glock mags fully loaded and ready.
I forget the actual formula but time does play a role in sag resistance (room temperature creep), which is the technical term. Regarding using the spring (compression and decompression), it is only worst if the strain rate (speed of loading) is high enough to induce crack initiation and propagation, which in a mag spring it is not. Time is the issue.
An important thing to consider is the element or alloy used to make the spring. You are correct however, spring creep is a known phenomenon, but it is very difficult to calculate.
I'll give you the short version: none of the mags in the video are still loaded anymore, but I've repeated this test with other magazines and found similar results. Glock magazine springs are the best at resisting spring creep/relaxation.
Great informative test. You’ve shown that changes do occur to the springs, which I didn’t expect. However, since each mag still performed flawlessly, then you would have to conclude that those who say that “leaving mags loaded for extended periods doesn’t hurt anything” are correct. While spring length is a data point, it’s function that really counts.
Since making this video, I've found a magazine where the function is negatively impacted by spring creep. It'll be the subject of an upcoming video hopefully.
I don't know how thinking bending metal to a certain point and keeping it there for years wouldn't cause lasting changes to the shape of the metal. Defies all physics. Thanks for proving it.
It's a continuum. The problem with magazine springs is that gun designers frequently setup a magazine so that when fully loaded, the spring is actually on the edge of plastic deformation. If you take a new spring out of the package, measure it, put it in the magazine and load it fully then immediately unload it, and measure it again, you will almost always observe that the spring has shortened. This is after being loaded to capacity for mere seconds, and it's because the designer of the magazine was trying to get the most rounds in the least length. It means that the spring has taken a "set" or has been compressed into plastic deformation. So when it's fully loaded, it's on the edge. Creep happens to all compressed springs, though it may not be easily observable. But a spring compressed near the plastic deformation point undergoes a LOT of creep, and at that point the metallurgy of the spring matters a lot. That's what you're seeing in my results. Thanks for watching.
I have some AR mags, about 10 or so I loaded back in 2001, about 15 plus years ago. They were brand new mags and only have been loaded once, never cycled. I would be curious how they have held up.
haha. Haven't tried them yet, life kind of getting in the way atm...they are still sitting there. Maybe I need to do this soon, record it and post to my channel.
I shot 2 full 15 round mags from a Sig p226 today that had been loaded for 12 years. Not one malfunction. Became a Smith and Wesson fan so the Sig got ignored. Accuracy was great too. I may have to reconsider my choices.
Great video. Thanks for doing a long term test. I work for a spring company and may be able to answer some of your questions. Of the springs that we have evaluated from gun companies what we have found is that most of the springs are over stressed. They are usually made of music wire and do take a set when compressed. There are ways to make springs that are more resilient but most large gun companies are not concerned with this because it has a higher cost involved. When you are making millions of guns per year, adding an extra dollar or two to the gun can make a huge difference. Some boutique parts suppliers make their springs out of oil tempered chrome silicon wire. That material makes the springs last a whole lot longer. You see these a lot in AR type rifles. Hope that helps.
You say that the springs "tend to take a set when compressed." My understanding of "set" when referring to springs is that "set" describes plastic deformation that happens immediately. In other words, it doesn't matter if the magazine is fully loaded for one year or one minute, if the spring is going to take a set it happens the instant the magazine is fully loaded. If "set" as I understand it is the issue with these springs, then there would be no difference between magazine springs from magazines that were stored fully loaded and those that have been fully loaded from time to time, but were normally stored unloaded. From what I understand, "creep" and "stress relaxation" are the concepts at work when a spring is compressed for a long duration.
Excellent video, I have had this exact argument with other shooters. I leave some mags loaded for years but never marked when they were loaded so my personal experience has always been anecdotal at best, definitely sharing this video to prove my point that while there long term effects on springs it is really irrelevant to function.
Caveat emptor - I'd say it's irrelevant to function IF the designers of that particular magazine factored in some decrease in strength over time. This is also anecdotal, but through the comments on this video I've heard of quite a few cops having experiences with Glock 22 magazine springs loosing enough strength over time (while loaded) to start causing malfunctions. The Glock 21 magazine springs are unique to the 20/21 - what I'm saying is don't rely on this test to assume that all Glock, S&W, or Ruger magazine springs are good to go. Always be testing equipment you rely on.
@@ShadetreeArmorer Testing goes without saying. my luck with mags loaded long term could be just that, though I don't leave mags loaded as long as you have, two years max and then they get switched out with a new mag. Also when it comes to my carry pistol I do have one mag that stays loaded but I test that for function monthly. I personally have never had an issue with any factory mag. Still a great video that does show while spring compression is a real thing it is not as big of an issue as some make it out to be.
Nice job. You are like me. You got tired of hearing everybody talk and decided to actually test it. It's funny you mentioned how old your carry ammo was. I just recently uploaded a video testing that theory, although my carry ammo was two years old. You'd be surprised at how many people think ammo goes bad in a year or less. Of course, there are conditions that can cause that, but they are truly the exception and not the rule. Thanks for doing this. I was thinking about it, and you saved me a LOT of time. 😁
Great job in your testing. I keep my mags loaded but I don't load to full capacity (one less than full) and unload them occasionally to let the spring relax. Your findings are what I expected and that's why I maintain my mags the way I do. Thanks for sharing this information.
I've found that occasional unloading has no benefit versus being loaded full time. Additionally, and this is just anecdotal, but I accidentally left one out of three magazines I've been testing downloaded by one round for a month, and it had the exact same amount of creep as the other two magazines that were topped off. That's only one example though, I'm going to try and replicate it.
Well maybe not exactly. Like he said, it could be that the glock 21 mags have a little extra space and aren't getting compressed as hard when fully loaded like the M&P mags. Either way both mags functioned fine after years of being fully loaded. but i'd still replace both springs under after being loaded for so long to be safe. Just as he did.
I'd like to add a data point to your research. I loaded a Beretta 92 30 round magazine made by pro-mag approximately 10 years ago. It sat loaded, untouched, and never fired for those 10 years up until February of 2018. I finally used the magazine and it worked flawlessly. I then reloaded it once and ran through an additional 30 rounds without failure. I did the same thing with a 15 round magazine for the same Beretta that stayed loaded even longer than the 30 round mag and it worked without failure.
I saw the thumbnail, read the title and was convinced the video was about some kind of spring used in books or the ones in notebooks. I'm not sad however.
I work at a gun store and handle used trade-ins all the time. Quite often we'll find pistols or mags that were stored loaded for a long time but barely fired. Very rarely have we seen failures to feed but VERY often we'll see magazines that will fail to lock the slide open. Eight round 1911 magazines, the springs have coils removed to squeeze in an extra round and can fail to lock the slide open yet original style GI mags have much heavier springs that will feed through anything.
Based on what I've observed, what you say makes sense. It seems to vary by the design. There's always at least a little creep (like my G21 example) or sometimes a lot (M&P9.)
One of the biggest differences in Glocks and other mag designs is the size of the wire used in the springs. Glocks spring metal is thicker which helps retain the spring size. Glock springs brand new does tend to be difficult to load the last round in a mag for a lot of users because of the spring size and being the springs are not broken in some. I've left 4-5 of my Glock mags loaded for 3-5 years and they still continue to work without any issues. My Sig P238 had 2 mags left loaded and the spring was considerably shorter and I kept having FTF on the last round.
Jack Public I'm 5 years into experimenting with Affirmations vs' Negative conversations with my Magazines...just 5 more years to go, and I will have the Data to share.
mags are really meant to be disposable, consumable items. i personally keep all my mags loaded, so these "tools" are always ready to go if an emergency need arises. even if keeping them loaded for years will reduce their service life and service cycle, then so be it, replace them periodically as intended and pull new ones from your stockpile. i don't understand why some people want to "baby" their mags, an empty mag simply serves no purpose, then why even have them around? it's like "babying" your car by parking it on the drive way with gas tank empty, and only fuel it up before you go for a drive. doesn't make any logical sense.
"Or do not; I am not a beggar." That made me laugh. I'm so used to TH-camrs ending it with a command, but when you said that, it surprised me. You sir, have made my day. I'm still not sharing your video.
Thank You for getting to the truth..I have argued about this for years..I knew the springs had to be weakened by having them loaded..Great Video...Like you said, just because the mag worked, doesnt mean the spring has been weakened..
Good work mate. But the thing to remember is cycling the same (top) round repeatedly if you clear and re-chamber daily. This can cause the bullet to eventually push back into the round. In effect slightly enlarging the round at the tip, causing a blockage if fired, and damage to the firearm and or your self. Great video.
Any guns that I keep loaded stay loaded unless I'm cleaning them (rare) or practicing with them at the range. I never unload daily. I've never noticed any bullet setback.
Thanks for the laugh, Michael... Really cracked me up and helped with a recent depressive mood. It's like Steven Wright once said... "You know when you're leaning back on the two legs of a four-legged chair and you're just about to fall over backwards??? ...I feel that way all the time!"
two great points, #1 i knew that compression over time had to cause loss, it seems so obvious to me #2 its great to see that the loss is controlled and not an issue thank you for posting
Ive got some Glock 19 magazines thats when not in use, always are fully loaded. Thats since august 2011. Ive also got 2 magasines to a H&K G3 rifle thats been fuly loaded since 1992. (when not in use) and they all work fine today.
+Johan Sand Have any identical magazines that were left unloaded the whole time? If so, compare the spring lengths. There's probably a difference. My observation is that wear occurs, but not enough wear to "wear out" a magazine spring.
Used my G3 magasines in late august, still worked fine, this time I cleaned them and compared som springs. Out of the 4 magasines I cleaned, all the springs had different length. The 2 thats been loaded over time where shorter then the 2 other magasines that I have no history over. Got them used and its my military issued gear, one is actually a genuine H&K magasine from 1966 and not a swedish made one. Back in 1992, I did not check the springs, so I have no idea if the springs in the loaded magasines have been any shorter. The difference betveen the magasines are about 1- 1 -1/2cm. Used the Glock 19 magasines yesterday, Im not using my G19 so much nowdays, the still work fine. I have not yet stripped and cleaned the magasines since I got them in 2011. Just rubb them against my pants if they are dirty or just put them in a water and shake them clean.
Out of words sir. Thank you so much for your effort and patience in conducting this test. See those, at the moment, 166 dislikes? That's the current amount of gun channels you pissed off with this amazing video. May you have a great day!
Actually someone doing a real test versus just talking about it. Nice job.
Jason Zeisler couldn't have said it better. People have always said having your mag loaded has no bearing on the spring life.
Right! I had to like it when he said 5 years.
Would have nice to see of they functioned in the gun that's the big question
@@magicd5780 did you not watch the entire video?? Zero malfunction s and lockback on all magazines.
@@Snowy0123 Is rather seem him just shoot em ass is rather than take them apart relieving the pressure from the spring momentarily
The commitment is crazy 5 year setup for a vid
Next we need to do 50 year long ammo storage tests in hot, cold, humid, dry and coastal climates. Shade and no shade. buried in dirt or kept in a garage. Plastic ammo box versus metal ammo box.
+Riddick tonn a lot of folk tend to forget about that aspect though lol
Saya1 especially creationists...
+Denchanter357 I get the joke but I happennto be one. I'll admit people have intelligence even if their stuipid in one thing or another as you believe I'm to be both. though even if ya disregard religion entirely a lot of religious book from most sources will have things historically accurate so at the very least their an inconsistent historal account where sometimes there is none for the time. so don't discount them entirely
Yeoman Archer military surplus rounds are stored in unfavorable conditions sometimes. As well as can be older than you in some cases. Also i stored shotgun and rifle ammo in my garage for two years, only have 3 rounds total not fire but those were light primer strikes from rapid fire after my rifle was hot.
I have nothing negative to say about you or your extensive research. you're just a smart guy helping a lot of people. thank you sir.
Focused, too. I suppose this transfers to mags for other firearms. Scientific principle applied?
This comment is so negative
@@DroneVideos4k I'm feeling sad because I know tomorrow is gonna be a bad day, I'm out of money and my glass of water is almost gone and I know I'm gonna get a cold next week and I'll probably lose my job and its gonna rain.
I think people forget we only live 70 years. If I get my first handgun at 21, I'll only need to do 10 spring replacements for my fully loaded mags in my entire life, and that's if I do it every five years.
Keep your mags loaded. Mags are cheep. Life is not.
I leave my 15 round triple k 1911 magazine I modified a bit fully loaded for self defense in the house and leave my to Wilson Combat mags unloaded
My gun is a colt gold cup trophy bright stainless
1911
@Seckswithatoaster ...
70 years? I have patients who are in their 80s and probably more healthy than you if you believe that. 90+ is a constant regular occurrence and most of them are obviously slower but still fully functional.
Holy shit you missed the target. This must be an authentic channel. Subbed.
I was uh... hitting a target further down range. Out of frame. Or something. ;-)
Shadetree Armorer lol OK I'm subbing
Shadetree Armorer yeah most noobs only trying with one Target in frame, they always forget about the special operator Target that is out of frame...
Skates82: I just hate how those operator targets out of frame are so quiet when you hit them... they really should make a louder noise.
@@phillips91682ify i saw that rock he got it!!!!
Thank you for this experiment I'm no longer worried about leaving my glock mags loaded. The amount of creep on the springs is negligible and insignificant in my opinion.
At least, the creep is negligible for the G21 mags that were paired with my Gen 3. Glock has many magazine designs. On the bright side, even my mags which showed lots of creep still functioned fine. I'm not worried either.
William bugg i
nice test . not to mention the fact the age of the actual spring itself and how one spring regardless of how often its used or not will get simular loss of function or creep as you mentioned to that of another, its been my experience that most stoppages due to poor feeding isn't the mags fault but mostly due to poor cleaning of the firearm itself or the gun ho types that over fill the mags
I shot 21 year old Hi Power mags loaded with 21 year old ammo, and had zero problems, but the 13 round Hi Power mags do not smash the springs down nearly as much as other mags. Sig's P228 factory magazines are also only 13 rounds, but the aftermarkets, also made by MecGar just like the Sig factory mags, hold 15 rounds, and they are not nearly as hard to load as Beretta's PX4 Compact mags. Those PX4 springs are really mashed down super hard. That last round is pretty darn tight.
Creep is due to the movement & creation of new dislocations in a material. They are imperfections that allow rows of atoms to move one atomic space at the time.
Each dislocation causes a local distortion in the material. Eventually, dislocations will ''pile up'' and get stuck in the strain fields created by each other.
In my opinion, the speed of room temperature creep should become less and less over time.
*I remember reading that hydrogen made creep worse... and caused embrittlement. I cannot remember why.
I certainly wouldn't have expected such a thorough test. Good job and thank you for the video!
Christoph Michelbach no shit! I thought my wife had my balls in a jar under the sink.....
Great review sir! I have a Beretta 92-f 9mm used for a service weapon year’s ago. Left it fully loaded and 3 mags topped off. After 23 years sitting it ran amazing. I was surprised, and had concerns about the spring tension as well, but everything was functioning and cycling with no issues
THANK YOU SIR!!! this has been an extremely difficult thing to get an answer on. I appreciate your work.
No problem!
I liked your video. Nicely done. I have called S&W for my M&P, as well as Magpul for my AR. They both told me that they design the mags to be loaded permanently. I love your in depth stuff. Keep em coming.
Great video. Refreshing to hear someone on the interweb in the gun realm that actually does their homework, speaks intelligently, and isn't a super tacticool operator guy... Solid video. Well done
I have a S&W 915 and have kept the mags loaded since I bought it in the 80s. I shoot it about once a week and have never had any malfunctions. However, after watching this excellent video, I'm ordering new springs! Thanks.
Thank You for taking the time to do this test.
Serious time lmfao
I don't suppose may folks have thought of weakening springs from constant storage , rather ,eta when I taught metallurgical physics, in the portion of elastic effect I termed the "coathanger" effect of weakening due to flexing and unflexing heating. This test you did is interesting because you have proven that just compressing a spring shortens it without weakening. Others have already disproved "coathanger" effect as neither the amplitude or rapidity of flexing meets the threshold for weakening one would associate with a hot bending coathanger suddenly breaking. This was an excellent test you conducted and I had not thought of in my classes before I retired. Thanks!
I love seeing the results of long term tests like this. It's the kind of data that is hard to come by. And it's useful in engineering far beyond it's original scope. Good job.
This is excellent. A lot of talk on this very subject, without real data. This is real data, showing that the loaded springs compress (shorten) over time.
I was taught, use (compression & release) caused spring wear and leaving mags loaded wouldn't damage the spring. Clearly springs at max compression degrade. I'll be using your information and will begin changing out my mag springs every 5-7 years depending on use. Thanks for taking the time to actually complete this test.
Make sure you check my work! The conventional wisdom is wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm always right. My G21 mags for instance exhibited very little creep. You probably have guns that are different from mine, and even if not your springs may be from different batches or subcontractors or whatever. Check your loaded mag springs against your practice mags and see what the differences are.
Bend a clothes hanger back and forth in the same bend. What happens??? Nough said...metal IS COMPRIMISED with use and tension. I always thought this was just common sense, really. But, thx for the test that shows, to what extent, they're effected.
Inherited from my Dad what was originally my grandfather's Colt 1908 Vest Pocket (1919 manufacture). I ran through the six rounds it had in it with no problems. It performed well each time I took it to the range until recently.
With .25APC hard to find, I buy what is available but the little pistol has started jamming with almost everything I try in it-- ejecting, but not seating the next round.
So, today, I received my spring kit.
New magazine spring: 5-3/4"
Old magazine spring: 4-7/16"
About an inch and a quarter!
Obviously feels different to load the magazine, and also when seating the magazine.
I look forward to my next range time. Hopefully, it will be less picky about what I feed it.
This probobly explains why HK limits mag capacity even though the tube is long enough for another round. Really good video you have put together.
Saiga actually does the same thing with their .308 mags. You can modify the factory 8 round magazine to hold 10 rounds. But there just might be a reason they limited it to 8...
+mattorama CAL MAG REG FROM 10 TO 8 , CHECK GLOCK MAG REGS FOR THE STATE OF EMERGENCY CALIFORNIA !!!!9/29/17 SPOKANE WA! !
Great up-load, keep up the great videos....
John Moses Browning designed the M1911 spring and follower to only let the original magazines take 7 rounds, even though there was room in the box for 8. It's amazing how even 100+ years ago, they put that kinda thought into gun and magazine design.
Great video! Let me share my experience: I am a LEO who carried a S&W 4006 as my duty weapon. At 0830L on 9/11 my ANG Security Forces unit was activated. For the next year and a half, my duty weapon and spare mags were forgot about in my gun safe. When my Unit was deactivated, I went to the range to qualify before return to LEO duties. While qualifying, I had two of the three S&W mags have multiple issues with feeding and locking back the slide. As a rangemaster myself, the rangemaster who was qualifying me and I decided to experiment in correcting the magazine issues by re-stretching the springs. Doing that corrected one of the two problematic magazines, the other continued to have feeding issues. Although all three of my mags were replaced for duty use, it was an interesting and surprising turn of events.
Conversely, when my Security Forces was activated, we broke ot the "wartime" supply of loaded 30 rd. M-4 magazines. (Variety of manufactures.) The were fully loaded for at least 6 years that I know of. When qualifying at the range prior to deployment, we had ZERO issues with any of the mags.
Defensor Fortis/molṑn labé
I would have personally introduced a brand new mag into the test as a control, but that hardly nullifies the experiment. Well done!
Echoing everyone’s comments. Thanks for taking the time to provide this thorough testing 👏
really can't beat your test. bravo! thank you so much for this experiment. I've been keeping a lot of my AR mags loaded and all my pistol mags too. well done. subbed!
Today Aug 8 2020 I have been watching mag vblogs on and off all day. This is the only one that had
a structured approach to mag spring "wear" over time. All the others were talk ( BS ). Thank you for
the effort it is appreciated.
Turns out it's a lot easier to repeat something you've heard than actually do the work and figure out the truth. Thanks for watching!
Very interesting and informative. I appreciate seeing some actual thought put into this. My father and I both carry Winchester Ranger T series, and both of us keep our carry guns loaded to +1 capacity. Very cool to see that function of the magazine is unaffected and that the rounds still work after such time.
I was starting to worry that I had been carrying my rounds for too long and wanting to replace them. Considering I've carried OWB and I've only been carrying those rounds for 2 years since last replacement, I suppose they can go a little longer.
Keep up the good work mate.
+Erik Mason Thanks!
Thank for this video! It's good to know that somebody took the time to make a video about this. Now I don't worry so much about leaving mine loaded but it was a concern at one point. I wondered about my daily carry which is also the LC9.
Amazing real world data comparison! From a theoretical engineering approach, (simply put) yes loading and unloading of a spring and keeping a load on a spring for periods of time will shorten the length (in return life) of the spring. Does this matter though? No, because just about every manufacturer accounts for this, making their springs slightly longer to ensure spring life for their mags. In the end if you ever do exceed the life of your springs (which would take a LONG time to do so), its not that big of a deal to replace the springs or mags.
Love to see people actually testing things physically instead of relying on the calculations done by engineers . Subbed!
I always thought the modern manufactures took shortening into consideration, that way once it’s shortened/if shortened it’s more or less where it should be
Some of them do.
Interesting and informative, would be interesting to see a "new" magazine (just loaded once before the test) as a control to see if there is a difference between one and one that had been loaded and unloaded many times at the range. Also maybe see one that had been loaded for a long time with 1-2 rounds less than capacity of the magazine.
Very well done put together test and video. As an engineering major I enjoyed seeing a quality examination of this question that I am sure many of us gun owners have wondered at one time or another. You earned a new subscriber.
Since this mainly focused on creep it would be interesting to test to see how magazines are if at all susceptible to fatigue given how many times a magazine can be fully loaded and unloaded. I wonder with modern metallurgy, machine design, and CAE most firearm engineers determined a proper endurance limit for this component or if it is one of those parts that they assume is to be replaced every so often. I would hope for the first case even if it cost more.
I think about it this way: A recoil spring or striker spring can last 3-5k rounds, right? Okay. So imagine you have just one ten round magazine and the spring in it wears at the same rate as a recoil/striker spring. Assume you load rounds in the magazine, and always shoot them out. It would take 30-50k rounds to cycle that spring 3-5k times. That's the service life of major components like the frame, slide and barrel... as in, you can fully expect to wear out the gun as fast as you'd wear out the magazine spring through compression and decompression. On top of that, you gotta keep in mind the striker and recoil springs are cycled very rapidly, which will build up heat - on top of being near a source of heat. The magazine spring on the other hand is cycled slowly which allows that heat to dissipate, and it's further away from a heat source. I just can't imagine, assuming quality materials and normal use, that it's realistically possible to wear out a magazine spring through compression cycles.
Excellent data. I've wondered about this for years now and wish I had thought to do something along the same lines when I last purchased some XDM 40 mags for long term hidden placement around the property. I have recently lost one of them and I think I might just order two and perform the same test, although not as extensively. Thanks a lot for this publication!
The humility of this guy... taking over 5 years to produce a test on a controversial topic in the gun community... and he apologizes that he couldn't do more. Great guy, great vid. Liked & Subbed, brother.
Great test report. Well done and not too wordy. I noticed the Glock magazine springs have closer coil spacing at the top of the magazine near the follower. The other magazine springs appear to have evenly spaced coils which are a little cheaper to produce. Perhaps the designers at Glock have had additional studies that led to the design of their springs so they would not be affected as much by being compressed for a long time.
The Glock engineering mojo is certainly on display here! Very little spring creep on those mags. I would have to guess that it's all but impossible to eliminate unless you use a spring that's nowhere near it's compression limit - like a 30rd mag pinned to 10rd, for instance.
I own a Taurus G2C, the springs in the magazines that came with it are identical to those Glock springs. Good to know. Love my G2C!
Superb video, your testing gave a definitive answer to this question of loaded magazine reliability over extended time period. Thank you!
A dedication of science it took five years in the making to make this video but getting down to the truth is the most important thing.
The best comment here
The only guy I have found that actually did the physical testing. Thank you
Turns out, it matters.
Great analysis - I wonder if you had the foresight to measure the springs initially. Shortness is not a significant measure unless the springs were longer to begin with.
He did say it was impromptu, but that is an excellent point. Manufacturers could have changed designs of the spring from year to year for any reason.
Awesome, awesome video. Thank you sir. Maybe something else to consider, the quality of the metal used to make the springs. I like your theory of the designers choosing to possibly go over the spring's designed limit by adding that 'extra' round as a selling point for the firearm
The hero youtube needs!
deadlychicken69 but not the one we deserve..
Beat me to it...
He beat me too...
Can we trust him?
Y’all should all do a video if you have mags to test.... more data the better...
6 years later your vids still helping others. Thank you for your time.
No problem!
one of the most informational videos I've ever watched. thank you
Thanks for the data and the process you went through to obtain it. Like the other comments, it allows one to have much more confidence in thier daily carry when they haven't unloaded the mag in quite a while. (Or their old nightstand 1911, which hasn't been to the range in 4 years. ;)
I liked your test as impromptu as it was. Answered all my questions. More good than bad. Thanks
This guy is my hero; Thank you. I have a few guns with fully loaded magazines ever since i bought them a few years ago. Never fire a shot.
Thanks Glad to see that my Glock 21 Mags can be left loaded for my EDC gun, Thanks for sharing & taking the time to do this test etc.
It is my experience that the "old school" thought came forward thru the military which were still using antiquated 45's and M16A1s until the early 1980's. Heck we used to gather around to see who was shooting the oldest pistol for bragging rights even though we knew they were occasionally rebuilt. The pieces were sloppy and would rattle but would still function however not stretching your magazine springs before using them was asking for a malfunction. There is absolutely no way of knowing how many thousands of rounds went down range from those weapons. And, of course, those magazines were produced by the cheapest bidder. Excellent and thanks!
you made me check!!! lol i have 2 carry mags that have been loaded for 4 yrs and 3 extra range mags that are fairly new i leave unloaded my results were much the same on 40 cal m&p but like yourself no miss fires or fail to feeds thanks for the video!!!
I still get accused of faking these results. People just don't want to accept that something they've believed for years is a myth.
@@ShadetreeArmorer agreed !!! but my grandpa/daddy/uncle carl said..... !!!!! yea i get that all the time!!!!!
@@ShadetreeArmorer Is there a range test to go along w/this?-How did the loaded springs perform on the range?
@@TrueBlueYou I see you didn’t watch the video and scrolled down to the comments instead.
@@ShadetreeArmorer it's crazy how much people will deny certain concepts that are real and true. This is why world politics is such a mess. Either way good on you to find out yourself, the world needs more of us to do that.
Sincerely impressed by your dedication and attention to detail. You certainly did not cut any corners. Subscribed.
Thanks!
one of the best video on you tube about mag springs thanks for sharing I give you 10 out of 10 thanks ones again
thanks for the time taken to make this. really things held up fairly well. better then my experience at least (glock compact and full size 9/40/357 mags most over 8 and up to 12yrs and some 17 mags may be 3coils short length wise (including a wolf +power replacement spring). I rotate springs and magizines because of this and have some that fail to lard the last or last 2 rounds or at the least just intermittent slide lock. .... I have never heard of "spring creep" but it sounds appropriate I've found loading to 30% capacity makes the wear seem incredibly minimal compared to closer to full capacity. and I do believe (it certainly seems like it) a few days/week spring fully unbound outside of a magazine can help temporarily restore some degree of function to the weaker springs....... and thanks again for a rather well documented test and the time to post it for us, cheers!
I'd like to share some of my personal experience as a fellow gunsmith. While the plastic deformation was clearly visible, a more telling test would be to take the assembled mags and measure the upward force on the follower at bullet sized intervals down the length of each and plot the resulting curves against each other. What I believe you would find would be two things: 1: the expected slightly weaker force of the stored-loaded ones (curve of lower amplitude), and 2: A shift in the shape of the curve itself.
Because you have good form, it would take a fairly significant problem with the magazine to actually cause a malfunction. However, for the zillions of poor form and weaker shooters, spring problems can be vastly exacerbated.
Outside of dirty guns, when a customer tells me a gun is jamming, I always test it myself. I routinely encounter guns that I can put 200 rounds though without a malfunction, but when the customer does the firing, they can't get through a single mag without a problem. All of this is generally due to grip strength and form. However, worn springs can play a big role in the issue as well.
When *you* are firing the gun, you are creating essentially optimal conditions for the firearm. It's clean and it's held nearly perfectly still during the recoil. In this scenario the springs really have to only achieve the bare minimum of functionality. With a shooter with weak arms, a weak grip, and poor recoil control, the story is different.
Consider what happens in the magazine if the gun is allowed to move four inches vertically during the recoil. Now instead of the mag spring having to push the stack of rounds up only 1/4 of an inch, it now has to achieve that same motion with the full inertia of those round pushing down against the recoil force that is lifting them up those four inches. The weaker spring is far more likely to fail under those conditions.
It's often more obvious of a problem with recoil springs. If you stored the gun locked-back for 5 years, it would likely function just fine, but the slide would be battering the crap out of the frame. The idea here is that while the worn spring may be able to perform *some* of its tasks adequately (returning the gun into battery), it won't necessarily be performing *all* of its tasks (absorbing enough recoil to protect the frame).
In a nutshell, you aren't wrong here. A good shooter is not likely to experience problems with stored-loaded mags. But there is a reason that every manufacturer recommends replacing all the springs in a self-protection firearm every couple years. Not everyone has perfect form, and if your life depends on it its hard to justify taking that extra risk. Cheers!
Well thought-out comment, cheers!
@@ShadetreeArmorer Similar to AshburnArmorer's suggestion, but I was hoping you would test the actual spring rate, I'm far from being any kind of expert, but I can't help but wonder if the compressed springs would eventually "relax" so to speak, and lengthen back out to original length, and aren't actually any weaker. I have no idea if this is the case or not, it's probably just as likely that they wouldn't, just wish there was a little more to go on, it's a great test though otherwise, and still a lot better and informative than pure heresay. But if you ever revisit this, pick up a spring rate tester! And on a side note, as an owner of M&P's I'm a little disappointed in how they held up, seems like the Glocks held up a lot better, but as much as I want to like Glocks, I just don't. I don't dispute that they are good, solid guns, but I hate their ergonomics, and I really wanted to like them too because I wanted a 10mm. Was actually going to get an FNH FNS over both as I really like them, M&P was actually my second choice, but then I found some police trade ins with night sights at half the cost of new guns, lol. That could actually make for an interesting video too, testing how much brightness night sights lose over time, I think the generally recommended replacement interval is 10 years, could make for an interesting video though to compare.
@@grindersandgears3445 I didn't have the equipment to take any measurements, but the M&P springs that had been under load were notably weaker feeling when loading and unloading rounds than the ones that weren't. I didn't really notice as dramatic a difference on the LC9 springs despite the fact that they lost a lot of length.
One question,what of the different metals the following springs are cast.?
I would value your opinion on certain jury rigs,all I want to do is what you do. There aren't enough smith's in Canada bro.
I liked the fact that you did an actual test rather than pontificating about the subject. Having worked in design engineering, I can attest to the fact that a spring can be designed in such a way that it will not exhibit problems in the future. Here are two real life examples: 1) I own a Savage 1915 10-shot semi auto pistol. My father left it loaded in a safe for over 40 years. He never shot it other than when he first got the pistol. After he passed, I took the gun out of the safe and emptied the gun by firing all 10 shots. The gun performed flawlessly. 2) My brother purchased a Ruger 10-22 in 1984. He always leaves the gun unloaded. The spring in the original rotary magazine is worn out and no longer functions properly.
I'd certainly say there's room for worse designs than the three examples I happened to use!
Impressive amount of time/effort you put into this testing. Thank you!
I wish you had new "control" magazines for comparisons. But your dedication in making this is amazing. I wish you had included a brief conclusion at the end.
A friend of mine was playing in the attic when he was a kid. His younger brother found his dad's .45 auto from the War. He picked it up, tried to rack the slide back and the ammo failed to load. But he noticed the gun's barrel had drifted to where it was pointed directly at his chest. He was glad the round failed to be chambered (most likely because his brother lacked the strength to rack the slide all the way back, and because his brother didn't know to release it and let it chamber a round. What bothered him the most, however, was that his brother had his finger on the trigger when he did it.)
At the time, the War had only been over for about 20 years.
Great test, well done. Love the idea of testing springs this way, results are real world and thanks for posting!
Wow thank you for doing this. No one else will put the time in to do this. So you just hear the theories about it with no data to back it up. Well done video.
Pretty good test. I have loaded my safe guns a few rounds shy of complete for years looking to minimize this issue. That and rotation of the magazines and rounds seems the easiest solution. :)
Great video! I've always wondered this because I usually have my 9mm magazines loaded. Of course every expert on the internet has their own opinion. Your video is the first one I have seen that actually experimented. Great job and thank you!
Replacing the springs in the mags of a gun you're selling to a friend sounds like the right thing to do. Alternatively if you sell one to an enemy take the springs out completely 🧐
Or just file down the firing pin ;) 😂
I think part of it anyway comes down to material used in the springs. The specific composition in the steel used.
Awesome video man, thankyou for the effort. You don't see much of that these days!
Thanks for doing this video. I've heard cases for and against keeping mags loaded. Now I'm pretty comfortable keeping my glock mags fully loaded and ready.
I've wondered this for 20 years. Thank you uploader.
I forget the actual formula but time does play a role in sag resistance (room temperature creep), which is the technical term. Regarding using the spring (compression and decompression), it is only worst if the strain rate (speed of loading) is high enough to induce crack initiation and propagation, which in a mag spring it is not. Time is the issue.
An important thing to consider is the element or alloy used to make the spring. You are correct however, spring creep is a known phenomenon, but it is very difficult to calculate.
Would be awesome to see another 6 years later update. Great video
I'll give you the short version: none of the mags in the video are still loaded anymore, but I've repeated this test with other magazines and found similar results. Glock magazine springs are the best at resisting spring creep/relaxation.
@@ShadetreeArmorer Have you tried with other brands like Sig or Taurus?
This is exactly what I was looking for thanks for taking the time.
Great informative test. You’ve shown that changes do occur to the springs, which I didn’t expect. However, since each mag still performed flawlessly, then you would have to conclude that those who say that “leaving mags loaded for extended periods doesn’t hurt anything” are correct. While spring length is a data point, it’s function that really counts.
Since making this video, I've found a magazine where the function is negatively impacted by spring creep. It'll be the subject of an upcoming video hopefully.
@@ShadetreeArmorer I look forward seeing it.
Excellent! Thanks for showing.
I don't know how thinking bending metal to a certain point and keeping it there for years wouldn't cause lasting changes to the shape of the metal. Defies all physics. Thanks for proving it.
It's a continuum. The problem with magazine springs is that gun designers frequently setup a magazine so that when fully loaded, the spring is actually on the edge of plastic deformation. If you take a new spring out of the package, measure it, put it in the magazine and load it fully then immediately unload it, and measure it again, you will almost always observe that the spring has shortened. This is after being loaded to capacity for mere seconds, and it's because the designer of the magazine was trying to get the most rounds in the least length. It means that the spring has taken a "set" or has been compressed into plastic deformation. So when it's fully loaded, it's on the edge. Creep happens to all compressed springs, though it may not be easily observable. But a spring compressed near the plastic deformation point undergoes a LOT of creep, and at that point the metallurgy of the spring matters a lot. That's what you're seeing in my results. Thanks for watching.
I have some AR mags, about 10 or so I loaded back in 2001, about 15 plus years ago. They were brand new mags and only have been loaded once, never cycled. I would be curious how they have held up.
Me too!
deltaleader71 and results are ?
haha. Haven't tried them yet, life kind of getting in the way atm...they are still sitting there. Maybe I need to do this soon, record it and post to my channel.
@@deltaleader71 Have you tried them yet?
@@orficaldari3524 negative. I still have not tested any yet. I need to try to remember to do this next go around.
Good informative vid and certainly dispels any myth about springs wearing , it is of no consequence to keep them loaded for years. thnx
I shot 2 full 15 round mags from a Sig p226 today that had been loaded for 12 years.
Not one malfunction. Became a Smith and Wesson fan so the Sig got ignored. Accuracy was great too. I may have to reconsider my choices.
Bubba Blackmon love the AIG P226 . Thing is accurate as can be.
Great Vid man. Very informational, and kills the Myths.
Great Video!
You are legit!
Great video. Thanks for doing a long term test. I work for a spring company and may be able to answer some of your questions. Of the springs that we have evaluated from gun companies what we have found is that most of the springs are over stressed. They are usually made of music wire and do take a set when compressed. There are ways to make springs that are more resilient but most large gun companies are not concerned with this because it has a higher cost involved. When you are making millions of guns per year, adding an extra dollar or two to the gun can make a huge difference. Some boutique parts suppliers make their springs out of oil tempered chrome silicon wire. That material makes the springs last a whole lot longer. You see these a lot in AR type rifles. Hope that helps.
You say that the springs "tend to take a set when compressed." My understanding of "set" when referring to springs is that "set" describes plastic deformation that happens immediately. In other words, it doesn't matter if the magazine is fully loaded for one year or one minute, if the spring is going to take a set it happens the instant the magazine is fully loaded. If "set" as I understand it is the issue with these springs, then there would be no difference between magazine springs from magazines that were stored fully loaded and those that have been fully loaded from time to time, but were normally stored unloaded. From what I understand, "creep" and "stress relaxation" are the concepts at work when a spring is compressed for a long duration.
"Or do not, I am not a begger" best part of the whole video. After the scientific rigor.
Wow. Amazing work. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks, man!
Wow! Serious dedication much appreciated brother.
The best I've seen.
Thank you for your time and sharing?👍
Liked and subbed.✌️
Excellent video, I have had this exact argument with other shooters. I leave some mags loaded for years but never marked when they were loaded so my personal experience has always been anecdotal at best, definitely sharing this video to prove my point that while there long term effects on springs it is really irrelevant to function.
Caveat emptor - I'd say it's irrelevant to function IF the designers of that particular magazine factored in some decrease in strength over time. This is also anecdotal, but through the comments on this video I've heard of quite a few cops having experiences with Glock 22 magazine springs loosing enough strength over time (while loaded) to start causing malfunctions. The Glock 21 magazine springs are unique to the 20/21 - what I'm saying is don't rely on this test to assume that all Glock, S&W, or Ruger magazine springs are good to go. Always be testing equipment you rely on.
@@ShadetreeArmorer Testing goes without saying. my luck with mags loaded long term could be just that, though I don't leave mags loaded as long as you have, two years max and then they get switched out with a new mag. Also when it comes to my carry pistol I do have one mag that stays loaded but I test that for function monthly. I personally have never had an issue with any factory mag. Still a great video that does show while spring compression is a real thing it is not as big of an issue as some make it out to be.
Nice job. You are like me. You got tired of hearing everybody talk and decided to actually test it. It's funny you mentioned how old your carry ammo was. I just recently uploaded a video testing that theory, although my carry ammo was two years old. You'd be surprised at how many people think ammo goes bad in a year or less. Of course, there are conditions that can cause that, but they are truly the exception and not the rule. Thanks for doing this. I was thinking about it, and you saved me a LOT of time. 😁
Indeed. Keep oil away from your carry ammo and don't go swimming with it, you'll be just fine.
when my pops started shooting again after 22 years he had ammo from 1994 and it still worked perfect
Great job in your testing. I keep my mags loaded but I don't load to full capacity (one less than full) and unload them occasionally to let the spring relax. Your findings are what I expected and that's why I maintain my mags the way I do. Thanks for sharing this information.
I've found that occasional unloading has no benefit versus being loaded full time. Additionally, and this is just anecdotal, but I accidentally left one out of three magazines I've been testing downloaded by one round for a month, and it had the exact same amount of creep as the other two magazines that were topped off. That's only one example though, I'm going to try and replicate it.
Nicely done - a thorough test with usable results. Looks like Glock uses superior springs.
Well maybe not exactly. Like he said, it could be that the glock 21 mags have a little extra space and aren't getting compressed as hard when fully loaded like the M&P mags. Either way both mags functioned fine after years of being fully loaded. but i'd still replace both springs under after being loaded for so long to be safe. Just as he did.
I'd like to add a data point to your research. I loaded a Beretta 92 30 round magazine made by pro-mag approximately 10 years ago. It sat loaded, untouched, and never fired for those 10 years up until February of 2018. I finally used the magazine and it worked flawlessly. I then reloaded it once and ran through an additional 30 rounds without failure. I did the same thing with a 15 round magazine for the same Beretta that stayed loaded even longer than the 30 round mag and it worked without failure.
I saw the thumbnail, read the title and was convinced the video was about some kind of spring used in books or the ones in notebooks.
I'm not sad however.
I work at a gun store and handle used trade-ins all the time. Quite often we'll find pistols or mags that were stored loaded for a long time but barely fired. Very rarely have we seen failures to feed but VERY often we'll see magazines that will fail to lock the slide open. Eight round 1911 magazines, the springs have coils removed to squeeze in an extra round and can fail to lock the slide open yet original style GI mags have much heavier springs that will feed through anything.
Based on what I've observed, what you say makes sense. It seems to vary by the design. There's always at least a little creep (like my G21 example) or sometimes a lot (M&P9.)
I would have checked once a year to see if its getting worse.
Who am i kidding i dont have the patience!
Subbed
One of the biggest differences in Glocks and other mag designs is the size of the wire used in the springs.
Glocks spring metal is thicker which helps retain the spring size.
Glock springs brand new does tend to be difficult to load the last round in a mag for a lot of users because of the spring size and being the springs are not broken in some.
I've left 4-5 of my Glock mags loaded for 3-5 years and they still continue to work without any issues.
My Sig P238 had 2 mags left loaded and the spring was considerably shorter and I kept having FTF on the last round.
I leave all my mags loaded and stock up on two spare springs per mag for my preps so no matter what years from now I will have working mags
Wow! This is gold! Thx 4 taking the time to do this.
There has never been a sadness that can't be cured by breakfast food!
Wait, wait. I worry what you just heard was give me a lot of bacon and eggs. What I said was: Give me all the bacon and eggs you have.
Shadetree Armorer You had me at Meat Tornado.
Shadetree Armorer
You sir, just gained a new subscriber!
Shadetree Armorer
"I'll have the party platter."
"Sir, that's for up to four people.."
"I know what i'm about, son."
Jack Public
I'm 5 years into experimenting with Affirmations vs' Negative conversations with my Magazines...just 5 more years to go, and I will have the Data to share.
mags are really meant to be disposable, consumable items. i personally keep all my mags loaded, so these "tools" are always ready to go if an emergency need arises. even if keeping them loaded for years will reduce their service life and service cycle, then so be it, replace them periodically as intended and pull new ones from your stockpile. i don't understand why some people want to "baby" their mags, an empty mag simply serves no purpose, then why even have them around? it's like "babying" your car by parking it on the drive way with gas tank empty, and only fuel it up before you go for a drive. doesn't make any logical sense.
"Or do not; I am not a beggar." That made me laugh. I'm so used to TH-camrs ending it with a command, but when you said that, it surprised me. You sir, have made my day.
I'm still not sharing your video.
Haha!
I'm sharing it! Good knowledge and five years of preparation deserves some recognition
yeah I caught that at the end too and had a good chuckle
I came here to comment on this too, sounds like something Ron Swanson would say.
it is what Ron Swanson says
Thank You for getting to the truth..I have argued about this for years..I knew the springs had to be weakened by having them loaded..Great Video...Like you said, just because the mag worked, doesnt mean the spring has been weakened..
springs are cheap, just replace them every so often...
Or get extra ones for when the others get weak
they are pretty expensive actually
Good work mate. But the thing to remember is cycling the same (top) round repeatedly if you clear and re-chamber daily. This can cause the bullet to eventually push back into the round. In effect slightly enlarging the round at the tip, causing a blockage if fired, and damage to the firearm and or your self. Great video.
Any guns that I keep loaded stay loaded unless I'm cleaning them (rare) or practicing with them at the range. I never unload daily. I've never noticed any bullet setback.
You are a scientist.
this is a outstanding experiment you did on mag springs sir
Ha ha ha this is hilarious. I’ve literally wondered this every single day of my life
Thanks for the laugh, Michael... Really cracked me up and helped with a recent depressive mood. It's like Steven Wright once said... "You know when you're leaning back on the two legs of a four-legged chair and you're just about to fall over backwards??? ...I feel that way all the time!"
two great points, #1 i knew that compression over time had to cause loss, it seems so obvious to me #2 its great to see that the loss is controlled and not an issue thank you for posting
Ive got some Glock 19 magazines thats when not in use, always are fully loaded. Thats since august 2011. Ive also got 2 magasines to a H&K G3 rifle thats been fuly loaded since 1992. (when not in use) and they all work fine today.
+Johan Sand Have any identical magazines that were left unloaded the whole time? If so, compare the spring lengths. There's probably a difference. My observation is that wear occurs, but not enough wear to "wear out" a magazine spring.
Have not checked the lenght on the springs. Will do that next time I clean them. Got plenty of magazines to check against.
I only checked that the magazines still work. The G19 magazine worked fine yesterday😊
Used my G3 magasines in late august, still worked fine, this time I cleaned them and compared som springs. Out of the 4 magasines I cleaned, all the springs had different length. The 2 thats been loaded over time where shorter then the 2 other magasines that I have no history over. Got them used and its my military issued gear, one is actually a genuine H&K magasine from 1966 and not a swedish made one. Back in 1992, I did not check the springs, so I have no idea if the springs in the loaded magasines have been any shorter. The difference betveen the magasines are about 1-
1 -1/2cm.
Used the Glock 19 magasines yesterday, Im not using my G19 so much nowdays, the still work fine. I have not yet stripped and cleaned the magasines since I got them in 2011. Just rubb them against my pants if they are dirty or just put them in a water and shake them clean.
Out of words sir. Thank you so much for your effort and patience in conducting this test. See those, at the moment, 166 dislikes? That's the current amount of gun channels you pissed off with this amazing video. May you have a great day!
Haha, thanks.