It should be mentioned, there's an Iron Keep door at the back of the cell the Lost Sinner is in, further connecting her to the Old Iron King. It is in my opinion, that the Old Witch Soul actually belongs to chaos bug that parasitically attaches itself to her in the beginning of the fight. So here's my summation of the lore for them. The Lost Sinner herself, is likely the Princess of Venn, and one can actually infer another quality about her. She was not undead. The Bell Keeper items specifically mention love to be her curse, not undeath. She was imprisoned in the Bastille for attempting to light the First Flame, at the behest of her progenitor, the Old Witch contained by the Chaos Bug. This would seem like a logical conclusion, the Undead come at the end of an age, either of fire, or dark. To stop the undead problem, one need only re-light the First Flame. Unfortunately, that is a suicidal quest, and one the Old Iron King ,also likely to be the Prince of Alken, would not allow. In an effort to preserve her, he locked his beloved princess away at the bottom of the Bastille where later Vendrick would attempt to exile his undead, far away from Drangleic. (Bear in mind that the Bastille, Saltfort, and Belfry Luna are implied to be very far away from Drangleic, and they do not connect to any other location by land.) In their current state, time continued on, and the curse of undeath is a slow one to take hold. The Prince had an arranged marriage to Mytha, who became the Baneful Queen, when he finally took the throne (not of want). However there was no reciprocated love for her, and she later went mad in her sorrow, to be so beautiful, and yet unloved was a grave insult to her. She poisoned herself out of love, in an effort to have her love returned just as the Covetous Demon did from love of her. Unfortunately, the ties between these characters resembles some manner of "Love Quadrilateral" Sadly, the love between the Prince and Princess could never be, and as their kingdoms began to further be beset by undeath, the Iron King began to seek answers from outside just as his progenitors did before him (The Four Kings) in an attempt to solve the problem, unlike the Princess who sought to restart the cycle. The Iron King held hunts to purge his land of the Undead and thus his lands began to look grim, and dark, all the while he entertained strange outsiders (such as the Alonne Knights, who swore loyalty to him for his generosity) in an effort to find a solution to the Undead. Finally, as he began to dig deeper for more Iron (Just as the Four Kings dug too deep in New Londo), he unearthed a great demon, who slew him and claimed his soul. The demon is implied to be "Ichorous Earth" from the Iron King Hammer's description, and from Shalquoir's dialogue. Mad with grief at the death of her beloved, the Lost Sinner (Princess of Venn) tortures herself, in an effort to end her life, unfortunately, the Chaos Bug, bearing the soul of her progenitor from the Age of Fire, cannot allow her host to die, and so she lies at the bottom of the Bastille, Not undead, but not allowed to embrace death to finally be with her beloved Prince of Alken. The loyal guardians to their honor, the Bell Keepers maintain their duties, even after the slow destruction of their leaderless kingdoms. These animated manikins represent a perfect creature, unliving, but not undead. As their living masters died or were exiled, they remained unchanged, ever fulfilling their duties of repelling those who would harm their creator's honor. Mytha, now ruling over her husband's crumbling kingdom, revived the art of puppet making, and created her own manikins, but she was petty, and thought them undeserving to see her beauty even after she had poisoned her own health, and she had their heads removed, yet even so, like the original puppets that guard the Bells, hers still defend her honor, just as those of the Prince and Princess do. As time went on, and the curse of Undeath become more prominent in Drangleic, Aldia, seeking to re-create a perfect being, untouched by Undeath, experimented on the manikins of Belfry Luna and Belfry Sol. Unfortunately, his efforts of binding them to the undead were failures, and served only to create more Enhanced Undead, abominations whose bodies warped with his foul experimentation. However, he was successful in producing one perfect being....Shanalotte. However, his creation came too late, and the secrets of undeath were never truly found, only stumbled across in luck. Drangleic succumbed to the curse, just as the kingdoms before it.
IsenseeSantosBR Thank you very much. This is one of the more open sections of lore. If you pay attention to the environment and read your items. It makes a lot of sense. :D
Well this is great story and does make sense,but i don't think that part about Aldia is true,where did you found that he has some sort of connection with iron keep,belfry luna(sol) ?
Those "messages" on the floor in the hall where you fight the Sinner... they're not simple engravings... They are the SAME glyphs what magically bound the flailing arms of the Bed of Chaos, in the first Dark Souls.
she is very very old, when a woman reaches a certain age her body stops producing the hormones that give women their ´femenine´ apparence more over the masculine hormones that were kept at a minimum see a sudden spike in production (not being ofershadowed by the antagonizing female hormones) that is why old women tend to grow facial hair and since the sinner is so old that might explain the large amount of it.
@@sadluck420 No read it again, he meant the mask that you buy has no beard. I see why you're confused because he mentioned the lost sinner in the middle, but there is no comma.
Here's my theory: The Lost Sinner wasn't the Prince or Princess. If they are then it really doesn't matter. We are told The Lost Sinner wanted to light The Flame. Well in order to do so you need the Great Souls to reach it. The first great one it went to was held by the Chaos Bug, the true holder of the Soul. But instead of killing the bug, the Sinner was possessed by it. The bug then made it lash out at random humans, friend or enemy. So the Sinner retreated into the dungeon you find it in. Its equipment is meant to make it weaker in combat, thus more likely to die and less likely to kill anyone. It also punishes itself for getting possessed in the first place, feeling responsible for all the innocent blood on its hands.
i think most people thought the lost sinner was female because she has breast and is wearing a skirt I never noticed a beard in game even if there is it isn't unheard of for females to have facial hair heck maybe its both of them maybe they got combined to suffer their sins together xD
I just got through commenting this on another video: he is the ONLY DS Lore guy who doesn't try to make himself sound spooky (which usually ends up making the ones who DO do it sound like failed ASMR channels)
Lost sinner is my favorite Dark Souls 2 boss. I just love how the fight went for me, like it wasn't too hard to the point where I would rage, but it sure was a challenge
What if the bug that crawls into her eye has something to do with qualaag from dark souls 1 ? Qualaag's soul in dark souls 1 can be used to make the chaos blade. In dark souls 2 the chaos blade is made from the old witch soul which you get by defeating the lost sinner on NG+. Qualaag is sometimes referred to as witch which further supports this.
i agree that the lost sinner is the witch of Izalith because this would make kinda make sense when we consider that her attempts to re-light the first flame could be considered the actions of a "fool" which is what Shalquoir calls her. Maybe she's punishing herself for what she created?
I guess I'm 4 years late playing through DS2, LOL. Having made it about halfway through, I have so many questions and wanted to know more about a lot of these bosses and locations. Good vids bro. I'm your newest subscriber.
I have a theory. The Lost Sinner attempted to link the fire but in order to do such a thing, you need a VERY powerful soul. I’m guessing she went on a murderous rampage, slaughtering countless people and warriors so she could build up her soul to become strong enough to even attempt to harness the first flame but over time...the guilt of what she did in order to become so powerful caught up to her and in the end she abandoned her quest and punished herself.
After this and 6 other Lore videos you just earned yourself a new subscriber! :D Seriously, i'm impressed how much work and research you put into these videos!
you know I would like to learn more about Shalquor (i think that's how u spell it) the talking cat and where she fits in knowing all this and being a talking cat
to add on remember in ds1 where the attempt to duplicate the flame created demons? its said that the bug is to be the witch of izalith, the main one, and according to you that sinners rise is where they keep mutations and undead its more of a reason to believe that it is the witch of izalith
Maybe the prince is the body, and the princess is the bug? United at last, to be locked in chains, in the dark, awaiting death. That's the kind of happy ending Dark Souls would give.
the lost sinner is not a guy, it's a woman check the game in portuguese, the translation of her name (lost sinner - pecadora perdida )refers to a woman not a man
Major Gari While that may be the case, we also know that translators have made mistakes in this game plenty of times already. The Throne Watcher's gear, for example, uses masculine pronouns, but in Japanese a genderless pronoun is used. This, along with the Watcher's more feminine appearance and the general association in past From Software games between sorcery and the feminine, has led many to believe the Throne Watcher is actually female. I do think the Lost Sinner is female as well, but it's still fun to speculate and come up with new interesting lore theories, which is all my original comment was.
Personally I believe that the lost sinner is the witch of izalith reborn in drangleic and she's punishing herself for the mistake of trying to relight the flame possibly due to the fact that the flame killed/mutated 2 of her daughters and also birthed many demons.
You make a lot of good points. I like the idea that the sinner is the princess and the beard is just her hair kinda like the movie the man in the iron mask
In the Spanish version of the game, the lost sinner is referred as a She: "La pedacora", so if the last theory is right, she'd have to be the princess instead of the prince.
So has an idea, when the witch of Izalith tried to create a new flame and the demons where born maybe she somehow birthed (or became the bug) along side them, plus the bug shares a lot of similar colours with the daemons, also I think because of how much smaller it is in dark souls 2, maybe it rebirthed itself through the power of the witches soul and became weaker/smaller because of this. It's a long shot but who knows
In Italian, we have male and female nouns. The Lost Sinner is translated in "La Peccatrice Perduta": "Peccatrice" stays for a female sinner, so, I think she's the Princess :D
Worth mentioning that it is probably a reference to the Giant Dad. Mask Raises Equipment Burden (Mask of the Father) Binded hands force the use of both hands on the sword (16 Strength for a Zweihander effectively "Binds" you to two handed use) Pyromancers show up to try to kill you (Black Flame) I've never played Dark Souls II, but that is what I'm seeing in the boss fight from what I've seen.
I have a small thought... As we know, the witch of Izalith took the form of the insect like creature as punishment for trying to recreate the first flame. My theory is that, since she is cursed, whatever she re-incarnates into will always have the bug-like appearance. And for that, i'd say the bug that enters the Sinner's is a re-incarnation of the Witch Of Izalith. Just a small thought that has been on my mind for a while, nothing special, i know :P
The bed of chaos was a vessel that held a bug that was once a person who tried to relight the First Flame. Just like that, I believe that the bug that crawls into the Lost Sinner's eye is indeed, the actual Lost Sinner, and the body being the vessel which the bug inhabits. Crossing that theory with the prince/princess story and recalling how the Bed of Chaos was more than just the Witch of Izalith alone, it would make sense that their "forbidden love" has resulted in the merging of the two, if they both were involved in relighting the First Flame, the body being the prince's, the insect being the princess. Makes sense, don't it?
When you fight Quelaag and ceaseless discharge, there are runes that appear within the fire above them. These same runes are seen in most beings directly related to the Witch's bloodline, the orbs next to bed of chaos, they even appear above the chaos bug itself. Now when you enter the room with the lost sinner, similar runes are inscribed on the ground. I'm not sure if its the Witch or the Chaos bug that causes these runes. Seems like since the witch is basically mother goddess, she can never truly die. When her current forms dies, the parasitic chaos bug that houses her soul just looks for its next host : witch body > chaos bug > archtree > chaos bug > lost sinner Regardless what form the Witch's soul inhabits, the chaos runes seem to follow her and her kin.
Sorry if I'm bombarding your videos with Dark Souls 2 lore theories, but I have another interesting idea! Although not as solid as the others. Oh, and this is a disclaimer! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. This theory contains topics that people may not feel comfortable with, so if you really want to deal with it, go right on ahead. I've seen some other people theorize that the equipment is meant to restrict the power of the Sinner, and that is true, but I think it does serve a double purpose. The Lost Sinner is locked up, most likely to keep herself and the world safe. But inside, there is a lot of blood and messages, and she obviously regrets something. Maybe multiple things. One possible thing is that she beheaded Myrtha. While Myrtha could have done that to herself, thinking she was turning ugly and wasn't enough for the king, it is possible that Myrtha went to see the one that the King coveted so much- and got beheaded for it. The Lost Sinner could be regretting that... But it seems unlikely. What about Vorgel the Sinner? He too is called a sinner, and guards the Bastille Key, which is very important for the whole Bastille and for lighting up the boss chamber. Why does he guard it? Perhaps he loves her, and the Lost Sinner gave in to her lust. This is going to turn dark, just a warning. Perhaps the blood is not only self-mutilatin, but... abortions. She betrayed her 'true love' and gave into lust, and she regretted that. She is also wearing a skirt. Not pants, not chain leggings.. a skirt. That would give her, ahem, access. While the last part goes a little far, the connection between Vorgel and the Sinner is very interesting. (this next section has been removed, after investigating the lore further. Not only was said section an abomination, but it was also wrong by lore standards) I might be right, or I might be wrong and be a horrible person for it. Either way, Dark Souls has definitely taken sad stories to the extreme, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is the truth. If you have something more positive, please, PLEASE, let me know, because I certainly don't want this to be right. Because this is dark.
Well, we really have no way of saying if it's wrong, so... it's all possible, haha. It's interesting to me, when I think about it, they allowed her to be locked up with a sword at all, really. Anyways, it is good to bring into question where Vorgal the Sinner lies in all of this!
DaveControlLive My thought is that They are sinner's because they rung the bell. In belfry sol the guardians seem to be after ringing the bell, at least the one who you talk to is. What if they succeeded and upon hearing the bell Vorgal and The Lost sinner tried to ring the bell in belfry luna but the order to ring it hadn't reached luna. So they were called sinner's for trying to access the flame.
maybe the witch of izaleth was reborn, possessed someone and tried to recreate the first fire again or just light it.After she failed again or maybe doing something similar to what happened at the bed of chaos she retreated back to sinners rise and now punishes herself
Interesting detail about the enhanced undead, which everyone seems ignore. They have identical moveset with the Titanite Demons from DS1... Just find it curious that no one seems to be making the connection.
I have a speculation about Lost Sinner that i think might make a lot of sense. I think this woman is actually a reincarnation of both the Queen of Izalith (quite obvious) and Velka, the Goddess of Sin. Don't say WTF yet, here are some strong clues: - The bug that clearly represents the queen of Izalith is a seperate character from the body: and the body seems to fight against it, until they are united again. I think this clearly indicates the Lost Sinner is a symbiotic being made of the corpse and the bug: two unique characters in one. - Velka has a strong association with crows. In DS1, as a crow, she takes the player to Lordrin; in DS2, the exact same happens to travel from the forest to the Lost Bastille... Where the biggest boss is the Lost Sinner. - The Lost Bastille is full of pursuers, which we know are brought by crows, which we know are related to Velka. By the way Velkas' covenant is the Blades of the dark moon; doesn't it match prefectly with the theme of the Lost Bastille? - Every character related to Velka wears crow feathers. Isn't it very likely that the "beard" on the Lost Sinner is actually... Crow feathers? That also solves the "male Lost Sinner" problem. - According to Vow of Silence, Velka is known as a "black-haired witch". The Witch Soul dropped by the Lost Sinner could match both with the queen of Izalith and Velka, as well as her physical description. - Velka is a rogue deity, perfectly matching the combat style of the Lost Sinner: agile, backstabbing, unpredictable. - No other character in the game has "Sin" in its name or primary description. - In DS1, the Karmic Justice miracle says "It is the task of Goddess Velka to define the sin, and mete out the punishment". Also in DS1, the Book of Guilty says "the guilty, who have disrespected the Gods or their covenants, shall one day face the wrath of the Blades of Moon". Althought there is no reason for the Queen of Izalith to have masochists pendants and to torture herself the way she does, it is the duty of Velka to make her get her punishment. The Queen of Izalith obviously was one of the biggest sinner in the whole lore and disrespected the Gods, so i believe Velka had to face her somehow. When the player delivers the queen of Izalith from her pain in DS1, Velka might have reincarnated with her in one being to ensure the queen would continue to endure her punishment forever, because her sin goes on forever: the chaos continues to spread. All those little things make me strongly believe that the queen of Izalith and the Goddess of Sin both are the Lost Sinner.
Okay so I'm not sure if this is just me but there are some of the 7 daughters of the Witch of Izalith whose location is still unknown. What if the Sinner is one of the daughters of the Witch? This is backed up by the cat saying "trying to light the first flame". Maybe the Sinner's sin was being an accomplice to the Witch. She too was part of those who committed the first sin.
If they were going to drive it home by tying the Witch of Izolith with the Lost Sinner, they could have made the pyromancers wear the Gold Hemmed Set and make that set a rare drop from them like they did with the Suspicious Shadows in No Mans Wharf in NG+. That would be awesome to see, the gold hemmed set, with the new look of cloth in darksouls 2
The thing about the Lost Sinner trying to light the first flame puzzles me, and if she indeed is the princess of Venn, and the Old Iron King is the prince of Alken, I believe that the current state of Iron Keep is a direct result of this attempt. We are told that the castle started to sink under its own weight, sure, but only right before it is said to be a mere story, indicating that no-one knows for sure. Maybe the prince and the princess tried to light the flame together, which backfired and led the princess to be locked away in Sinner's Rise, maybe even by herself as a punishment for her guilt and shame. The Iron King's flesh was charred and his soul possessed by the things that lurk below, as his soul says. This reminds me of what happened to the Witch of Izalith back when she started to mess around with the flame.
So how do we connect this with the Collectors Guide "The Lost Sinner eternally punishes herself for the sins of her past, she committed what some would believe to be the ultimate sin - she attempted to re-light the First Flame. The Lost Sinner possesses the Souls of a Great One; she holds the remnants of the Soul of the Old Witch of Izalith. Eons have passed since the Old Witch of Izalith walked the land, but such was her power that it persists even now." Why would she do that.
I'd say that the sinner is the princess and the iron king the prince (like you speculated in your alken/venn video), the king betrayed Mithra with the sinner, which led to the poisoning and destruction of the Earthen Peak; that's why she punishes herself! She cause the deaths of thousands and feels guilty about it
I'd like to know just who Shalquoir is... she knows events from the past that literally nobody else even remembers, and seems to intimately know all of the Great Old Ones... Not only that, but she is also the only unkillable NPC and even laughs at a player who tries to kill her. She has some relation to the Throne of Want, as she states she has to leave once the player has access to the area. Not only that, but also she recognizes very early on that you're somehow special-- I believe that's what she means by your "scent". Despite all of this, I've yet to find any lore on her whatsoever. Could she be some old soul from the original game? I don't know enough lore to know if this is justified, but she might possibly be Sif... It would make sense an animal would be reincarnated as an animal.
+Seth Brightside It makes more sense to me that she would have the soul of Alvina, who in her time was also a great soul. If I recall, she was also unkillable, also a cat, and had stupid amounts of ancient knowlege.
it's really very simple what the great soul bosses represent The rotten=nito lost sinner=witch of izaleth old iron king=gwyn dragon in bright stone= seath
Please forgive my terrible english. I think the lost sinner is actually eygil, while almost every description about the sinner is actually referring to the chaos bug (Izalith's fragment) to signify the "lost" Part. His handcuff actually boost pyromancy power, which hint his relation to pyromancy, while his agile swordmanship resemble a katana moveset, which is unique to sir alonne and his apprentice knights. Eygil was a loyal follower of the iron king, so i imagine he also had a good relationship with sir alonne, good enough to observe his techniques. So why don't he use pyromancy when we fight him, and use someone else's technique instead? My theory is that after sir alonne's disappearance, eygil attemp to create something to replace him. He was, after all, a master of pyromancy who managed to "give life" To fire (fire snake), and the iron king's most loyal retainer. It was at this point that he contract with the fragment of chaos, the source of demons. Then, the disaster we know happens. Not only that he killed his lord, he also sank his legacy (with his giant iron idol) to the ichorous earth. The shame was so great that he swear off one thing that he was proud of the most (pyromancy), erase his identity and damn himself eternally. Perhaps the old witch was feeling the same way about the chaos and what happened to her children, to the point where their guilt fuse one another.
The lost sinner might be a reference to the first dark souls game's ending. There if you chose the good ending you light the first flame again, the player in dark souls 1 is the only one that possesses the soul of the bed of chaos which is most likely the only source to create such a bug. The sinner's body resembles a male with the beard and rugged physique but is refered too as a female. Dark Souls is known for the choice of genders in the protagonists for the players choosing which kinda opens the posibility for both genders. The sinner could have been locked away when taken from the kiln as Drangleic had to be buildt and sealed off where the soul of bed of chaos grew new life and possessed the Sinner that lighted the flame in the first game and thus possessed him/her. Also look at the Sinners body, quite pale and kinda hollow like. Could be from being locked in darkness for so long but it could also have been the first flame taking it's toles when it was kindled, I mean we do not know how much or how fast the first flame burns people, and Gwyn was fully hollowed after so long being in the kiln. The Sinner might not look so bad because it wasn't in the kiln that long as Gwyn was and it's clothes might be that grayish due to being covered in ash. It is a possibility.
I’d like to think it’s the prince. The kingdom of belfry Luna killed most of the puppets and captured the prince. He’s made to suffer first by breaking his body then allowing the bed of chaos bug to take over his mind like with solair. The bug is referred to as she and probably holds a fragment of the old witches soul. The last puppet guards the bell which is the only thing the prince has left his honor.
How does the lost Sinner connect to the Ivory King? She must be connected to the DLC in some way, what with the Old Chaos. Maybe long ago (after DS1 though) the Lost Sinner's attempt to relight the first flame resulted in the Old Chaos, and thats where the Chaos Bug came from, and has been with her since then.
Personally I believe that the lost sinner is Quelanna because as a daughter of the Witch of Izalith she would know how to relight the first flame and would also know where her mother's soul would be. I feel that maybe after enough time passed she mourned over the loss of her family still and wanted to bring them back without remembering the previous mistake. Also I believe that the lost sinner made the chaos underneath Eleum Loyce.
maybe its the princess who's wearing torture garments closely similar to the prince? in a sense that would mean that she's tortured by him and the the love they shared between each other
In the German version of the game the lost sinner is called „Die Verlorene Sünderin“. In german you add „-in” at the end of a noun to make it female. So we can probably rule out the prince option.
Man.. shanalot has sooo much to say.. wish I knew back when it was new and I was super into it that she was the one who directs the player.. like the forlorn warrior in ds1..
I think the pursuer is the prince of alken. His ring provides evidence plus the fact that his eagle for no apparent reason takes you to the lost bastille to find the lost sinner. It's like the eagle is used to taking the pursuer there regularly so he can visit the lost sinner (his lover/the princess)
my interpretation goes in a whole different direction, but i just base this on things i saw on my playthroughs, so please correct me if im wrong... but since the door at sinners rise looks just like the door in the iron keep, i assume the sinner is linked to this place. what if the sinner is egyil, a pyromancer working for the old iron king. as far as i know, egyil created a lot of things, for example the giant minotaur head, which in named after egyil. after egyil helped the iron king to create the smelter demon and the smelterdemon burned the iron king, egyil felt guilty about what she (or he) has done, so she locked herself in the sinners rise. this would explain, why her handcuffs increase pyro damage, since she was a pyromancer... also, the iron king hunted the undead in the forest, so maybe the lost bastille was also built by him capturing the undead.. and thats why egyil went there to lock herself.
And people think Lost souls as very little story. I think it has a lot of story, but just as if you were plunked down into an unfamiliar land the story of that place may be hard to learn. Also I love all the little nodes both games give to Sword of the berserk/ the black swordsman/berserk. Was one of the first anime I saw and, was the first manga I started to collect.
Ahhhhhh now i know more about the fourth sister.At the beginning of the game,the 3 Firekeeper-sisters tell us,they was 4.With the Bonus for Pyromanty on the hand of the Siner Set,I think they is this lost Sister.And here Sin was the first flame.That was we think,what a beard is,can be long hairs,but this is my theory.
I read somewhere that it may be Quelana punishing herself for repeating her mothers mistakes by trying to recreate the first flame and failing. Its an interesting idea, but I read it a week after launch, so I don't know how credible it is.
Her sin was atleast partially the "forbidden" love (if you like me think that the lost sinner is indeed the princess) She did commit adultery after all, something that in medieval society was a reason for sentencing women to death (her beloved, wich is strongly suggested became the iron king, was engaged to another woman after all) Also she tried to "light" the first flame.. she did not try to copy it. So i dont really think that was her sin, just that it was a foolish idea. Maybe she tried to light it to get the power so she could finaly gain her love the prince? After all with the power of the first flame who would be able to keep her apart from her lover? Since their love was forbidden i think there where political reason... but as i said if you have the power of the first flame youre pretty much a god. Aparantly thought she failed miserably and punishes herselfe for her failure to obtain the power.. and in the end her beloved.
Well to be honest she HAS to be undead since she has been locked away for a damn long time. But i dont think that she was a chosen undead cause the chosen undead "links" the fires, not light the first flame. (or maybe the chosen undead does and its all just semantics... ah.. dark soul lore XD) Since she punishes herselfe she must feel that she has failed somewhere along the road wich means she must have realized how selfish her reasons for seeking out the first flame where. Sure that doesnt explain the presence of the bug, but i think the bug is a manifesation of the witch of isalith that urged the princess to seek out the first flame in the first place. How else was she suposed to know about the first flame to begin with? No one else seems to remember the lord souls wich where the split soul from the first flame no one but a certain cat.
I think the lost sinner is a reincarnation of the witch of izalith after learning what she did and the lost sinner found out she had the witches soul within her she thought the only way to pay for her sins was to torture herself
Doesn't the mask remind you of Pinwheel? Maybe the Princess and/or Prince tried to light the First Flame and something went horribly wrong, merging the two lovers into one being. And maybe the bug is created whenever someone tries to light the Flame. Or it is the reason it never works out.
If I saw it correctly wasn’t flexile sentry on the left of the path to The Lost Sinner? Though I might have been too angry when I kept dying on the path so I probably saw something different
I dont know if you speak with the cat after after the lost sinner boss she says "what was she thinking? ,Trying to light the first flame?" I dont think that the the belfey luna has anything to do with sinner's rise. I think the reason why you see the gargoyle is because after you do that boss you can get a key that is called the Bastille key and it allows you to open those two doors to light the inside of the room that you fight the lost sinner in. Also im pritty sure that the princess did not have a great soul and probably is the witch of isialth or whatever it is.
Ever consider that that bug might be the life soul, or a form of the life soul? As it is the soul of life, is it not right that it be alive? When looking at it like this, the bed of chaos is the witch of izalith, and it is the bug she extracts her power from. Afterall, you kill the bug at the heart of the bed of chaos; the only way it could manifest exactly as it was is if it was a form of the soul itself.
cant the sinner be the witch of izalith? idk seems to fit quite well. Pyromancers in ng+, darkness (no more flames for her), the sin shes getting punished for is the old chaos, the bug is the same from the bed of chaos...? gois does this make sense?
I honestly feel like the Bug is the Reincarnation of the Witch of Izaleth and is probably either Alken or Venn. The Sinner is whichever the bug is not. I actually feel that both are a Reincarnation, however. The bug is the reincarnation of the Witch herself, where the Sinner is the reincarnation of the Bed of Chaos, as the Bed was a living Vessel used by the bug, similar to what we are seeing here. Another point that somewhat supports that is Alken and Venn's love of creating and ability to create life. The Puppets in the towers were brought to life by Alken and Venn in order to protect. Similarly, in DS1, the demons were created by the Witch and were there to protect her and her children. Or that's how I take this, anyway.
I know it's an old video, and I can't cement my reference, but I heard somewhere (elsewhere on YT, I think) that the mask is male to represent the love for the Prince, or as the reason behind the sin in the first place (the motivation, not the actual sin itself). That's why the prisoner is female, yet the mask is male.
Maybe the bug is the princess.when someone trys to relight the flame they transform right? I think the body is the prince or someone else but i dont think the lost sinner is a woman. I think she turned in to the bug.
I personally believe that the lost sinner is Quellana, her sins being that she asked someone to kill here family. And that she tortures herself thinking that she is to blame.
It would be really tragic if the Lost Sinner really was Quelana from DS1. Even after she lucked out by escaping the horrible fates of the rest of her family, she was still so consumed by guilt that she felt compelled to succeed where they failed. Only to be imprisoned for her efforts, with no one but the worms and maggots for company.
If it was either the Prince or Princess, it must be the Princess. In the spanish version, in the Lost Sinner's name it's stated that it's female (in spanish most nouns describe this, in this case it's "Pecadora", which is the female for "Pecador").
I believe that the lost sinner is torturing her self because maybe she was forced to give herself to someone else and maybe she feels that she betrayed her love, the prince, but this is just speculation.
It is possible that the Sinner is the princess, from the Alken and Venn story. Their love , in the background of conflicts, should be considered a sin. If someone discovered their relationship, what is plausible, could have used this as an argument to lock her up. The bastille, as the game says, is a place where the undead are imprisioned, to avoid the spread of the curse. Sinner's rise is even further behind the bastille, in a place no one would think in visiting. Also, she is suffering the loss of her beloved, maybe the messages are for him. But, that theory would explain only her presence there. The question is why the bug/Witch of Izalith is there, and why a prisioner has a sword.
By the way, I just want to ask this: Is there any possibility of Mytha being the princess, and the Sinner someone else? Because there is the theory that Mytha is the princess and the Iron King the prince, but, if that is true, they wouldn't be in love already? Mytha is trying to be beautiful to the king, in order to gain his love, since he loves someone else.
The Prince of Alken could be the Smelter demon. As for the Princess being the Lost sinner is highly possible. I don't think it's the witch of Izalith, just merely one of her daughters.
ok, i got a theory here a powerful female pyromancer is trying to create a new first flame. she saw the fuckup izalith did and instead tries to use her own body and soul to kindle the fire, dying in the process. it's also possible the pyromancer got her hands on izaliths soul and used that aswell for even more power in the kindling a bug of chaos is still spawned but a much weaker one, since this one is just made for a ordary(even if powerful) human but still has atleast SOME of the pyromancers intellegence/mind the smaller and weaker chaos bug can not survive by its own, so it finds a host, a big strong knight dude, the lost sinners body (i guess you could argue that the lost sinners body might be the prince, maybe?) when the bug infects the person he is slowly going to get corrupted and it ending up controlling him completely. so with the last of his sanity he chooses to imprison himself in the sinners rise, torturing and imprisoning the now-in-control pyromancer for her sins aswell as some of her followers.
some notes that back this up -the lost sinner has a obvious "male" physique with broad shoulders, a very square shaped body, and a large torso and a beard -both times the first flame tired to be artificially made a bug of chaos was spawned, so it's not unlikely that both times this happened the creator had to give her life for it. -the lost sinner doesn't use pyromancies, just a sword -it says that the lost sinner locked herself up, i think this is meant to mean that the body of her locked her up, but wouldn't have made any sense if it was put that way -darksouls 1 had the chaos bugs in lost izalith, if you did not kill them they would seemingly infest solaire and turn him against you, seemingly slowly due to him still talking to you when he is defeated. thus having a bug that takes control of ones body and mind does not seem to outlandish. -there are messages scribbled on the floor next to the lost sinner, maybe these are messages either to stay sane as long as possible or, more likely, messages to one another with them unable to directly communicate -the original bug of chaos was also forced into using a puppet, but was much more powerful and was able to spawn/make one itself and was defenceless without the bed of chaos
My personal belief is that Lost Sinner IS the Witch if Izalith. Now be prepared, this is borderline fanfiction levels of speculation, but hear me out. So Sinner's rise is seen to be separate from the Lost Bastille. And further, the Lost Sinner's cell seems to be in a separate structure. My personal belief is that the Sinner's cell was actually built by The Ivory King and that Lost Sinner was found in the Chaos. Her guilt for what she did overwhelming her, and she was taken and imprisoned far away. It is important to note the direct translation of her name is the Forgotten Sinner, and this was her fate, to be locked away; Forgotten for all time. Her garb is designed to restrict her power, leaving her bound and lessened. She most likely vowed to never use fire again, hence why you can even enter her chamber without being incinerated instantly. But in an ironic twist of fate, Pyromancers that learn of her existence come to try and take from her the primordial secrets of fire, and maybe, the most foolish or mad of these students of flame, come seeking the power of the fabled Chaos Flame. It is very likely that Eigyl was one such seeker of knowledge who succeeded, as we find the Chaos Storm Pyromancy within the Iron Keep. She keeps the sword to deal with such foolish intruders who would dare disturb her punishment. Chaos Bugs follow her everywhere, a constant reminder of the horrors she birthed into the world, and the suffering her twisted, monstrous children inflicted upon it's inhabitants. As for what is etched in the floor, i cannot say. It could be the names of all those she felt she betrayed. Her children, her comrades and friends, snd/or the people of Izalith. Perhaps it is an account of their war with the Dragons. Or a list of all her lies and justifications. But more likely, it is simply the insane ramblings of one driven mad by guilt and shame. Eternally trying to atone for a crime, a sin, no being can truly judge. Sitting there in her cell as the centuries turn to millenia, and the relentless march of the ages erodes the stone around her, The Sinner waits. Locked away, forgotten by time, Lost to history...The Sinner waits. Regardless, I thank you for indulging me in my nonsensical ramblings about a fictional character we know virtually nothing about.
Well since the Lost Sinner wanted to rekindle the first flame, it has to be the princess trying to bring the two Kingdoms together so she can be with the prince. Rekindling the flame was the sin she made thus putting her in jail. She regrets it since she cant ring the bell anymore so she tortures herself. My theory
It makes me wonder that perhaps the 4 grand bosses are perhaps the reincarnation of the previous dark souls bosses. Lost sinner=witch of izalith or one of the daughters of chaos The rotten/pharros=gravelord into Dukes dear freja/duke tseldora=seathe the scales The old iron king=lord gwynn
WOAH! It all makes sense now. If the lost sinner is the princess of ven/belfry luna, and her and the iron king were in love... Well, he was stuck married to Mytha, however and didn't love her. Thus, the bells being made because they simply couldn't just say "lel fuck it" and walk out on their kingdoms to elope into the night. Thus Mytha went batshit insane and somehow turned into a headless gorgon.
It should be mentioned, there's an Iron Keep door at the back of the cell the Lost Sinner is in, further connecting her to the Old Iron King. It is in my opinion, that the Old Witch Soul actually belongs to chaos bug that parasitically attaches itself to her in the beginning of the fight. So here's my summation of the lore for them.
The Lost Sinner herself, is likely the Princess of Venn, and one can actually infer another quality about her. She was not undead. The Bell Keeper items specifically mention love to be her curse, not undeath. She was imprisoned in the Bastille for attempting to light the First Flame, at the behest of her progenitor, the Old Witch contained by the Chaos Bug. This would seem like a logical conclusion, the Undead come at the end of an age, either of fire, or dark. To stop the undead problem, one need only re-light the First Flame.
Unfortunately, that is a suicidal quest, and one the Old Iron King ,also likely to be the Prince of Alken, would not allow. In an effort to preserve her, he locked his beloved princess away at the bottom of the Bastille where later Vendrick would attempt to exile his undead, far away from Drangleic. (Bear in mind that the Bastille, Saltfort, and Belfry Luna are implied to be very far away from Drangleic, and they do not connect to any other location by land.)
In their current state, time continued on, and the curse of undeath is a slow one to take hold. The Prince had an arranged marriage to Mytha, who became the Baneful Queen, when he finally took the throne (not of want). However there was no reciprocated love for her, and she later went mad in her sorrow, to be so beautiful, and yet unloved was a grave insult to her. She poisoned herself out of love, in an effort to have her love returned just as the Covetous Demon did from love of her. Unfortunately, the ties between these characters resembles some manner of "Love Quadrilateral"
Sadly, the love between the Prince and Princess could never be, and as their kingdoms began to further be beset by undeath, the Iron King began to seek answers from outside just as his progenitors did before him (The Four Kings) in an attempt to solve the problem, unlike the Princess who sought to restart the cycle. The Iron King held hunts to purge his land of the Undead and thus his lands began to look grim, and dark, all the while he entertained strange outsiders (such as the Alonne Knights, who swore loyalty to him for his generosity) in an effort to find a solution to the Undead. Finally, as he began to dig deeper for more Iron (Just as the Four Kings dug too deep in New Londo), he unearthed a great demon, who slew him and claimed his soul. The demon is implied to be "Ichorous Earth" from the Iron King Hammer's description, and from Shalquoir's dialogue.
Mad with grief at the death of her beloved, the Lost Sinner (Princess of Venn) tortures herself, in an effort to end her life, unfortunately, the Chaos Bug, bearing the soul of her progenitor from the Age of Fire, cannot allow her host to die, and so she lies at the bottom of the Bastille, Not undead, but not allowed to embrace death to finally be with her beloved Prince of Alken.
The loyal guardians to their honor, the Bell Keepers maintain their duties, even after the slow destruction of their leaderless kingdoms. These animated manikins represent a perfect creature, unliving, but not undead. As their living masters died or were exiled, they remained unchanged, ever fulfilling their duties of repelling those who would harm their creator's honor.
Mytha, now ruling over her husband's crumbling kingdom, revived the art of puppet making, and created her own manikins, but she was petty, and thought them undeserving to see her beauty even after she had poisoned her own health, and she had their heads removed, yet even so, like the original puppets that guard the Bells, hers still defend her honor, just as those of the Prince and Princess do.
As time went on, and the curse of Undeath become more prominent in Drangleic, Aldia, seeking to re-create a perfect being, untouched by Undeath, experimented on the manikins of Belfry Luna and Belfry Sol. Unfortunately, his efforts of binding them to the undead were failures, and served only to create more Enhanced Undead, abominations whose bodies warped with his foul experimentation. However, he was successful in producing one perfect being....Shanalotte. However, his creation came too late, and the secrets of undeath were never truly found, only stumbled across in luck. Drangleic succumbed to the curse, just as the kingdoms before it.
Just awesome, congrats dude.
IsenseeSantosBR Thank you very much. This is one of the more open sections of lore. If you pay attention to the environment and read your items. It makes a lot of sense. :D
Well it is darksouls 2 which means the sequel of darksouls there fore meaning the contuing of darksouls lore
Well the lost sinner is "man in the iron mask" and his prison is far away on some island.
Well this is great story and does make sense,but i don't think that part about Aldia is true,where did you found that he has some sort of connection with iron keep,belfry luna(sol) ?
Those "messages" on the floor in the hall where you fight the Sinner... they're not simple engravings...
They are the SAME glyphs what magically bound the flailing arms of the Bed of Chaos, in the first Dark Souls.
I can't remember how the witch of izileth became a bug
@@cadenallen6776 Dark souls demons are parasites. The bug linked her to the chaos flame
I always thought the beard was just part of the mask.
she is very very old, when a woman reaches a certain age her body stops producing the hormones that give women their ´femenine´ apparence more over the masculine hormones that were kept at a minimum see a sudden spike in production (not being ofershadowed by the antagonizing female hormones) that is why old women tend to grow facial hair and since the sinner is so old that might explain the large amount of it.
Its just the hair swept on face, not beard.
It's definitely just her ragged hair in front of her face and showing beneath the mask... not a beard..
@@sadluck420 No read it again, he meant the mask that you buy has no beard. I see why you're confused because he mentioned the lost sinner in the middle, but there is no comma.
I coulda have gone my entire life and not know that this was a women
Here's my theory:
The Lost Sinner wasn't the Prince or Princess. If they are then it really doesn't matter.
We are told The Lost Sinner wanted to light The Flame. Well in order to do so you need the Great Souls to reach it.
The first great one it went to was held by the Chaos Bug, the true holder of the Soul. But instead of killing the bug, the Sinner was possessed by it.
The bug then made it lash out at random humans, friend or enemy. So the Sinner retreated into the dungeon you find it in.
Its equipment is meant to make it weaker in combat, thus more likely to die and less likely to kill anyone. It also punishes itself for getting possessed in the first place, feeling responsible for all the innocent blood on its hands.
your theory actually makes alot of sense O.O
+Lord Tryhard awesome theory
To light the first flame wouldn't he/she have to travel to the kiln of the First flame?
yugioh guy Yes, but you must acquire the four Great Souls to get there.
Lord Tryhard Isn't the kiln of the First flame in londor?
Your channel is definitely one of the best ways to explain why dark souls is not just about killing difficult bosses. +1 subscriber.
I'm glad you enjoy, thank you so much! :)
Am I only one who thought 'The Lost Sinner' was a Male?
Well I don't think a princess would grow a full length beard.
i think most people thought the lost sinner was female because she has breast and is wearing a skirt I never noticed a beard in game even if there is it isn't unheard of for females to have facial hair heck maybe its both of them maybe they got combined to suffer their sins together xD
Cheshire Heart I never noticed the breasts or the beard. And I thought the skirt was ripped trousers or something.
Sedge Sedgicus Yea I did too lol its so much cooler that its a female imo tho
I read the soul description.
I have waited a thousand years for someone to explain DSII lore without sounding like a total blowhard. Thanks man
I just got through commenting this on another video: he is the ONLY DS Lore guy who doesn't try to make himself sound spooky (which usually ends up making the ones who DO do it sound like failed ASMR channels)
Lost sinner is my favorite Dark Souls 2 boss. I just love how the fight went for me, like it wasn't too hard to the point where I would rage, but it sure was a challenge
***** honestly I think bosses shouldn't be nerfed, this is a souls game after all, its meant to be hard and unforgiving
What if the bug that crawls into her eye has something to do with qualaag from dark souls 1 ? Qualaag's soul in dark souls 1 can be used to make the chaos blade. In dark souls 2 the chaos blade is made from the old witch soul which you get by defeating the lost sinner on NG+. Qualaag is sometimes referred to as witch which further supports this.
i agree that the lost sinner is the witch of Izalith because this would make kinda make sense when we consider that her attempts to re-light the first flame could be considered the actions of a "fool" which is what Shalquoir calls her. Maybe she's punishing herself for what she created?
I guess I'm 4 years late playing through DS2, LOL. Having made it about halfway through, I have so many questions and wanted to know more about a lot of these bosses and locations. Good vids bro. I'm your newest subscriber.
I have a theory.
The Lost Sinner attempted to link the fire but in order to do such a thing, you need a VERY powerful soul. I’m guessing she went on a murderous rampage, slaughtering countless people and warriors so she could build up her soul to become strong enough to even attempt to harness the first flame but over time...the guilt of what she did in order to become so powerful caught up to her and in the end she abandoned her quest and punished herself.
After this and 6 other Lore videos you just earned yourself a new subscriber! :D Seriously, i'm impressed how much work and research you put into these videos!
"A character whose backstory is wrapped in mystery..." Bloody hell, that narrows it down.
you know I would like to learn more about Shalquor (i think that's how u spell it) the talking cat and where she fits in knowing all this and being a talking cat
The Princess can be wearing mask that resembles the Prince as a sign of eternal love.
love these lore videos
to add on remember in ds1 where the attempt to duplicate the flame created demons? its said that the bug is to be the witch of izalith, the main one, and according to you that sinners rise is where they keep mutations and undead its more of a reason to believe that it is the witch of izalith
Maybe the prince is the body, and the princess is the bug? United at last, to be locked in chains, in the dark, awaiting death. That's the kind of happy ending Dark Souls would give.
Well that doesn't make sense at all,and the bug is definitely one of the daugthers of Chaos.
Sladjan Ivkovic What if......the Princess.....was a decendent of Quelana, who is, a Daughter of Chaos?
Redxfighter0 Well maybe his theory then is not that bad..
the lost sinner is not a guy, it's a woman
check the game in portuguese, the translation of her name (lost sinner - pecadora perdida )refers to a woman not a man
Major Gari While that may be the case, we also know that translators have made mistakes in this game plenty of times already. The Throne Watcher's gear, for example, uses masculine pronouns, but in Japanese a genderless pronoun is used. This, along with the Watcher's more feminine appearance and the general association in past From Software games between sorcery and the feminine, has led many to believe the Throne Watcher is actually female.
I do think the Lost Sinner is female as well, but it's still fun to speculate and come up with new interesting lore theories, which is all my original comment was.
YOURE SUPPOSED TO LIGHT THE SINNERS ROOM? TF
it makes it easier
Personally I believe that the lost sinner is the witch of izalith reborn in drangleic and she's punishing herself for the mistake of trying to relight the flame possibly due to the fact that the flame killed/mutated 2 of her daughters and also birthed many demons.
You make a lot of good points. I like the idea that the sinner is the princess and the beard is just her hair kinda like the movie the man in the iron mask
In the Spanish version of the game, the lost sinner is referred as a She: "La pedacora", so if the last theory is right, she'd have to be the princess instead of the prince.
Maybe the Lost Sinner is one of those circus freak ladies with the beards
+SloFlo Bruh This is totally me when I'm responding to your comment.
+DaveControl you say bellfry wrong you say it bellfree not bellfry
dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/belfry
+DaveControl realy
Ok dude you win a "Suscriber" Congratulations!! *Evangelion Ending Congratulations*
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoy my videos. :)
You can get the bell keeper stuff at the iron keep bell
But he was talking about how to get bell stuff in the sinner’s rise not the iron keep
So has an idea, when the witch of Izalith tried to create a new flame and the demons where born maybe she somehow birthed (or became the bug) along side them, plus the bug shares a lot of similar colours with the daemons, also I think because of how much smaller it is in dark souls 2, maybe it rebirthed itself through the power of the witches soul and became weaker/smaller because of this. It's a long shot but who knows
In Italian, we have male and female nouns. The Lost Sinner is translated in "La Peccatrice Perduta": "Peccatrice" stays for a female sinner, so, I think she's the Princess :D
I think the bug wants to light the first fire like the witch of izalieth trying to recreate the first flame
What if the girl behind the mask is who the statues in the gutter are supposed to represent? its just a thought
Worth mentioning that it is probably a reference to the Giant Dad.
Mask Raises Equipment Burden (Mask of the Father)
Binded hands force the use of both hands on the sword (16 Strength for a Zweihander effectively "Binds" you to two handed use)
Pyromancers show up to try to kill you (Black Flame)
I've never played Dark Souls II, but that is what I'm seeing in the boss fight from what I've seen.
The lost sinners lore is one of the best to me. Its so idk, hard do explain with words...
I have a small thought... As we know, the witch of Izalith took the form of the insect like creature as punishment for trying to recreate the first flame. My theory is that, since she is cursed, whatever she re-incarnates into will always have the bug-like appearance. And for that, i'd say the bug that enters the Sinner's is a re-incarnation of the Witch Of Izalith.
Just a small thought that has been on my mind for a while, nothing special, i know :P
You can actually get the bellkeeper items at the place close to the ironkeep as well. I believe it's called ''the bell...'' something.
The bed of chaos was a vessel that held a bug that was once a person who tried to relight the First Flame. Just like that, I believe that the bug that crawls into the Lost Sinner's eye is indeed, the actual Lost Sinner, and the body being the vessel which the bug inhabits.
Crossing that theory with the prince/princess story and recalling how the Bed of Chaos was more than just the Witch of Izalith alone, it would make sense that their "forbidden love" has resulted in the merging of the two, if they both were involved in relighting the First Flame, the body being the prince's, the insect being the princess.
Makes sense, don't it?
It's the main character from dark souls 1. I don't know how, but it might as well be.
When you fight Quelaag and ceaseless discharge, there are runes that appear within the fire above them. These same runes are seen in most beings directly related to the Witch's bloodline, the orbs next to bed of chaos, they even appear above the chaos bug itself. Now when you enter the room with the lost sinner, similar runes are inscribed on the ground. I'm not sure if its the Witch or the Chaos bug that causes these runes. Seems like since the witch is basically mother goddess, she can never truly die. When her current forms dies, the parasitic chaos bug that houses her soul just looks for its next host :
witch body > chaos bug > archtree > chaos bug > lost sinner
Regardless what form the Witch's soul inhabits, the chaos runes seem to follow her and her kin.
Sorry if I'm bombarding your videos with Dark Souls 2 lore theories, but I have another interesting idea! Although not as solid as the others.
Oh, and this is a disclaimer! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. This theory contains topics that people may not feel comfortable with, so if you really want to deal with it, go right on ahead.
I've seen some other people theorize that the equipment is meant to restrict the power of the Sinner, and that is true, but I think it does serve a double purpose.
The Lost Sinner is locked up, most likely to keep herself and the world safe. But inside, there is a lot of blood and messages, and she obviously regrets something. Maybe multiple things.
One possible thing is that she beheaded Myrtha. While Myrtha could have done that to herself, thinking she was turning ugly and wasn't enough for the king, it is possible that Myrtha went to see the one that the King coveted so much- and got beheaded for it. The Lost Sinner could be regretting that... But it seems unlikely.
What about Vorgel the Sinner? He too is called a sinner, and guards the Bastille Key, which is very important for the whole Bastille and for lighting up the boss chamber. Why does he guard it? Perhaps he loves her, and the Lost Sinner gave in to her lust. This is going to turn dark, just a warning. Perhaps the blood is not only self-mutilatin, but... abortions. She betrayed her 'true love' and gave into lust, and she regretted that. She is also wearing a skirt. Not pants, not chain leggings.. a skirt. That would give her, ahem, access. While the last part goes a little far, the connection between Vorgel and the Sinner is very interesting.
(this next section has been removed, after investigating the lore further. Not only was said section an abomination, but it was also wrong by lore standards)
I might be right, or I might be wrong and be a horrible person for it. Either way, Dark Souls has definitely taken sad stories to the extreme, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is the truth.
If you have something more positive, please, PLEASE, let me know, because I certainly don't want this to be right. Because this is dark.
Well, we really have no way of saying if it's wrong, so... it's all possible, haha. It's interesting to me, when I think about it, they allowed her to be locked up with a sword at all, really.
Anyways, it is good to bring into question where Vorgal the Sinner lies in all of this!
DaveControlLive My thought is that They are sinner's because they rung the bell. In belfry sol the guardians seem to be after ringing the bell, at least the one who you talk to is. What if they succeeded and upon hearing the bell Vorgal and The Lost sinner tried to ring the bell in belfry luna but the order to ring it hadn't reached luna. So they were called sinner's for trying to access the flame.
maybe the witch of izaleth was reborn, possessed someone and tried to recreate the first fire again or just light it.After she failed again or maybe doing something similar to what happened at the bed of chaos she retreated back to sinners rise and now punishes herself
Wow i never actually noticed the bug was a chaos maggot from ds1 lol.
Interesting detail about the enhanced undead, which everyone seems ignore. They have identical moveset with the Titanite Demons from DS1... Just find it curious that no one seems to be making the connection.
I have a speculation about Lost Sinner that i think might make a lot of sense. I think this woman is actually a reincarnation of both the Queen of Izalith (quite obvious) and Velka, the Goddess of Sin. Don't say WTF yet, here are some strong clues:
- The bug that clearly represents the queen of Izalith is a seperate character from the body: and the body seems to fight against it, until they are united again. I think this clearly indicates the Lost Sinner is a symbiotic being made of the corpse and the bug: two unique characters in one.
- Velka has a strong association with crows. In DS1, as a crow, she takes the player to Lordrin; in DS2, the exact same happens to travel from the forest to the Lost Bastille... Where the biggest boss is the Lost Sinner.
- The Lost Bastille is full of pursuers, which we know are brought by crows, which we know are related to Velka. By the way Velkas' covenant is the Blades of the dark moon; doesn't it match prefectly with the theme of the Lost Bastille?
- Every character related to Velka wears crow feathers. Isn't it very likely that the "beard" on the Lost Sinner is actually... Crow feathers? That also solves the "male Lost Sinner" problem.
- According to Vow of Silence, Velka is known as a "black-haired witch". The Witch Soul dropped by the Lost Sinner could match both with the queen of Izalith and Velka, as well as her physical description.
- Velka is a rogue deity, perfectly matching the combat style of the Lost Sinner: agile, backstabbing, unpredictable.
- No other character in the game has "Sin" in its name or primary description.
- In DS1, the Karmic Justice miracle says "It is the task of Goddess Velka to define the sin, and mete out the punishment". Also in DS1, the Book of Guilty says "the guilty, who have disrespected the Gods or their covenants, shall one day face the wrath of the Blades of Moon". Althought there is no reason for the Queen of Izalith to have masochists pendants and to torture herself the way she does, it is the duty of Velka to make her get her punishment.
The Queen of Izalith obviously was one of the biggest sinner in the whole lore and disrespected the Gods, so i believe Velka had to face her somehow. When the player delivers the queen of Izalith from her pain in DS1, Velka might have reincarnated with her in one being to ensure the queen would continue to endure her punishment forever, because her sin goes on forever: the chaos continues to spread. All those little things make me strongly believe that the queen of Izalith and the Goddess of Sin both are the Lost Sinner.
Everything is Velka tho.
Okay so I'm not sure if this is just me but there are some of the 7 daughters of the Witch of Izalith whose location is still unknown.
What if the Sinner is one of the daughters of the Witch?
This is backed up by the cat saying "trying to light the first flame".
Maybe the Sinner's sin was being an accomplice to the Witch. She too was part of those who committed the first sin.
If they were going to drive it home by tying the Witch of Izolith with the Lost Sinner, they could have made the pyromancers wear the Gold Hemmed Set and make that set a rare drop from them like they did with the Suspicious Shadows in No Mans Wharf in NG+. That would be awesome to see, the gold hemmed set, with the new look of cloth in darksouls 2
The thing about the Lost Sinner trying to light the first flame puzzles me, and if she indeed is the princess of Venn, and the Old Iron King is the prince of Alken, I believe that the current state of Iron Keep is a direct result of this attempt. We are told that the castle started to sink under its own weight, sure, but only right before it is said to be a mere story, indicating that no-one knows for sure. Maybe the prince and the princess tried to light the flame together, which backfired and led the princess to be locked away in Sinner's Rise, maybe even by herself as a punishment for her guilt and shame. The Iron King's flesh was charred and his soul possessed by the things that lurk below, as his soul says. This reminds me of what happened to the Witch of Izalith back when she started to mess around with the flame.
So how do we connect this with the Collectors Guide "The Lost Sinner eternally punishes herself for the sins of her past, she committed what some would believe to be the ultimate sin - she attempted to re-light the First Flame. The Lost Sinner possesses the Souls of a Great One; she holds the remnants of the Soul of the Old Witch of Izalith. Eons have passed since the Old Witch of Izalith walked the land, but such was her power that it persists even now." Why would she do that.
I'd say that the sinner is the princess and the iron king the prince (like you speculated in your alken/venn video), the king betrayed Mithra with the sinner, which led to the poisoning and destruction of the Earthen Peak; that's why she punishes herself! She cause the deaths of thousands and feels guilty about it
I'd like to know just who Shalquoir is... she knows events from the past that literally nobody else even remembers, and seems to intimately know all of the Great Old Ones... Not only that, but she is also the only unkillable NPC and even laughs at a player who tries to kill her. She has some relation to the Throne of Want, as she states she has to leave once the player has access to the area. Not only that, but also she recognizes very early on that you're somehow special-- I believe that's what she means by your "scent". Despite all of this, I've yet to find any lore on her whatsoever. Could she be some old soul from the original game? I don't know enough lore to know if this is justified, but she might possibly be Sif... It would make sense an animal would be reincarnated as an animal.
im in the same boat as you buddy
+Seth Brightside It makes more sense to me that she would have the soul of Alvina, who in her time was also a great soul. If I recall, she was also unkillable, also a cat, and had stupid amounts of ancient knowlege.
+MaelstromFilm that makes much more sense! I haven't played DeS or DaS1 so I was really just guessing from what I know of the first game
Sweet Shalquoir is a descendant of Alvina from Dark Souls 1. Makes sense, both are talking cats and give insight to random shit.
She a cat
After I played dark souls I realized that nothing is true.
it's really very simple what the great soul bosses represent
The rotten=nito
lost sinner=witch of izaleth
old iron king=gwyn
dragon in bright stone= seath
ninetailed fox she isn't a great soul herself. She got it from the stone dragon in the boss arena that spits spiders.
Please forgive my terrible english.
I think the lost sinner is actually eygil, while almost every description about the sinner is actually referring to the chaos bug (Izalith's fragment) to signify the "lost" Part. His handcuff actually boost pyromancy power, which hint his relation to pyromancy, while his agile swordmanship resemble a katana moveset, which is unique to sir alonne and his apprentice knights. Eygil was a loyal follower of the iron king, so i imagine he also had a good relationship with sir alonne, good enough to observe his techniques. So why don't he use pyromancy when we fight him, and use someone else's technique instead? My theory is that after sir alonne's disappearance, eygil attemp to create something to replace him. He was, after all, a master of pyromancy who managed to "give life" To fire (fire snake), and the iron king's most loyal retainer. It was at this point that he contract with the fragment of chaos, the source of demons. Then, the disaster we know happens. Not only that he killed his lord, he also sank his legacy (with his giant iron idol) to the ichorous earth. The shame was so great that he swear off one thing that he was proud of the most (pyromancy), erase his identity and damn himself eternally. Perhaps the old witch was feeling the same way about the chaos and what happened to her children, to the point where their guilt fuse one another.
The lost sinner might be a reference to the first dark souls game's ending. There if you chose the good ending you light the first flame again, the player in dark souls 1 is the only one that possesses the soul of the bed of chaos which is most likely the only source to create such a bug.
The sinner's body resembles a male with the beard and rugged physique but is refered too as a female. Dark Souls is known for the choice of genders in the protagonists for the players choosing which kinda opens the posibility for both genders.
The sinner could have been locked away when taken from the kiln as Drangleic had to be buildt and sealed off where the soul of bed of chaos grew new life and possessed the Sinner that lighted the flame in the first game and thus possessed him/her.
Also look at the Sinners body, quite pale and kinda hollow like. Could be from being locked in darkness for so long but it could also have been the first flame taking it's toles when it was kindled, I mean we do not know how much or how fast the first flame burns people, and Gwyn was fully hollowed after so long being in the kiln. The Sinner might not look so bad because it wasn't in the kiln that long as Gwyn was and it's clothes might be that grayish due to being covered in ash.
It is a possibility.
I’d like to think it’s the prince. The kingdom of belfry Luna killed most of the puppets and captured the prince. He’s made to suffer first by breaking his body then allowing the bed of chaos bug to take over his mind like with solair. The bug is referred to as she and probably holds a fragment of the old witches soul. The last puppet guards the bell which is the only thing the prince has left his honor.
How does the lost Sinner connect to the Ivory King? She must be connected to the DLC in some way, what with the Old Chaos. Maybe long ago (after DS1 though) the Lost Sinner's attempt to relight the first flame resulted in the Old Chaos, and thats where the Chaos Bug came from, and has been with her since then.
Personally I believe that the lost sinner is Quelanna because as a daughter of the Witch of Izalith she would know how to relight the first flame and would also know where her mother's soul would be. I feel that maybe after enough time passed she mourned over the loss of her family still and wanted to bring them back without remembering the previous mistake.
Also I believe that the lost sinner made the chaos underneath Eleum Loyce.
maybe its the princess who's wearing torture garments closely similar to the prince?
in a sense that would mean that she's tortured by him and the the love they shared between each other
Woah, really cool theory man.
In the German version of the game the lost sinner is called „Die Verlorene Sünderin“. In german you add „-in” at the end of a noun to make it female. So we can probably rule out the prince option.
I thought that the lost sinner was a 'soul fragment' of the witch, just as nashandra is a fragment of manus and Duke tseldora is a fragment of seath.
Man.. shanalot has sooo much to say.. wish I knew back when it was new and I was super into it that she was the one who directs the player.. like the forlorn warrior in ds1..
*shalquoir
I think the pursuer is the prince of alken. His ring provides evidence plus the fact that his eagle for no apparent reason takes you to the lost bastille to find the lost sinner. It's like the eagle is used to taking the pursuer there regularly so he can visit the lost sinner (his lover/the princess)
there are more then one pursurer, its more likely that they hunt down the undead
is there a point where you fight two at once?
yes in the throneroom (after you see the ghost). Idk if its just ng+ tho. But yes you have to fight 2 at once at one point
itzjustboris nice theory dude!
my interpretation goes in a whole different direction, but i just base this on things i saw on my playthroughs, so please correct me if im wrong...
but since the door at sinners rise looks just like the door in the iron keep, i assume the sinner is linked to this place. what if the sinner is egyil, a pyromancer working for the old iron king. as far as i know, egyil created a lot of things, for example the giant minotaur head, which in named after egyil.
after egyil helped the iron king to create the smelter demon and the smelterdemon burned the iron king, egyil felt guilty about what she (or he) has done, so she locked herself in the sinners rise.
this would explain, why her handcuffs increase pyro damage, since she was a pyromancer...
also, the iron king hunted the undead in the forest, so maybe the lost bastille was also built by him capturing the undead.. and thats why egyil went there to lock herself.
And people think Lost souls as very little story. I think it has a lot of story, but just as if you were plunked down into an unfamiliar land the story of that place may be hard to learn. Also I love all the little nodes both games give to Sword of the berserk/ the black swordsman/berserk. Was one of the first anime I saw and, was the first manga I started to collect.
Ahhhhhh now i know more about the fourth sister.At the beginning of the game,the 3 Firekeeper-sisters tell us,they was 4.With the Bonus for Pyromanty on the hand of the Siner Set,I think they is this lost Sister.And here Sin was the first flame.That was we think,what a beard is,can be long hairs,but this is my theory.
I read somewhere that it may be Quelana punishing herself for repeating her mothers mistakes by trying to recreate the first flame and failing. Its an interesting idea, but I read it a week after launch, so I don't know how credible it is.
Her sin was atleast partially the "forbidden" love (if you like me think that the lost sinner is indeed the princess) She did commit adultery after all, something that in medieval society was a reason for sentencing women to death (her beloved, wich is strongly suggested became the iron king, was engaged to another woman after all)
Also she tried to "light" the first flame.. she did not try to copy it. So i dont really think that was her sin, just that it was a foolish idea. Maybe she tried to light it to get the power so she could finaly gain her love the prince? After all with the power of the first flame who would be able to keep her apart from her lover? Since their love was forbidden i think there where political reason... but as i said if you have the power of the first flame youre pretty much a god. Aparantly thought she failed miserably and punishes herselfe for her failure to obtain the power.. and in the end her beloved.
What if she was a chosen undead?
Well to be honest she HAS to be undead since she has been locked away for a damn long time. But i dont think that she was a chosen undead cause the chosen undead "links" the fires, not light the first flame. (or maybe the chosen undead does and its all just semantics... ah.. dark soul lore XD) Since she punishes herselfe she must feel that she has failed somewhere along the road wich means she must have realized how selfish her reasons for seeking out the first flame where. Sure that doesnt explain the presence of the bug, but i think the bug is a manifesation of the witch of isalith that urged the princess to seek out the first flame in the first place. How else was she suposed to know about the first flame to begin with? No one else seems to remember the lord souls wich where the split soul from the first flame no one but a certain cat.
I never noticed that the bug is the one from bed of chaos.
I think the lost sinner is a reincarnation of the witch of izalith after learning what she did and the lost sinner found out she had the witches soul within her she thought the only way to pay for her sins was to torture herself
Doesn't the mask remind you of Pinwheel? Maybe the Princess and/or Prince tried to light the First Flame and something went horribly wrong, merging the two lovers into one being. And maybe the bug is created whenever someone tries to light the Flame. Or it is the reason it never works out.
on the japanese version the Lost sinner is referred as a woman
If I saw it correctly wasn’t flexile sentry on the left of the path to The Lost Sinner? Though I might have been too angry when I kept dying on the path so I probably saw something different
Hmm... I never noticed those pyromancers when doing the Lost Sinner boss fight in NG+...
I dont know if you speak with the cat after after the lost sinner boss she says "what was she thinking? ,Trying to light the first flame?" I dont think that the the belfey luna has anything to do with sinner's rise. I think the reason why you see the gargoyle is because after you do that boss you can get a key that is called the Bastille key and it allows you to open those two doors to light the inside of the room that you fight the lost sinner in. Also im pritty sure that the princess did not have a great soul and probably is the witch of isialth or whatever it is.
Ever consider that that bug might be the life soul, or a form of the life soul? As it is the soul of life, is it not right that it be alive? When looking at it like this, the bed of chaos is the witch of izalith, and it is the bug she extracts her power from. Afterall, you kill the bug at the heart of the bed of chaos; the only way it could manifest exactly as it was is if it was a form of the soul itself.
cant the sinner be the witch of izalith? idk seems to fit quite well. Pyromancers in ng+, darkness (no more flames for her), the sin shes getting punished for is the old chaos, the bug is the same from the bed of chaos...? gois does this make sense?
the princess is the sinner because women with beards are sins
I honestly feel like the Bug is the Reincarnation of the Witch of Izaleth and is probably either Alken or Venn. The Sinner is whichever the bug is not.
I actually feel that both are a Reincarnation, however. The bug is the reincarnation of the Witch herself, where the Sinner is the reincarnation of the Bed of Chaos, as the Bed was a living Vessel used by the bug, similar to what we are seeing here.
Another point that somewhat supports that is Alken and Venn's love of creating and ability to create life.
The Puppets in the towers were brought to life by Alken and Venn in order to protect. Similarly, in DS1, the demons were created by the Witch and were there to protect her and her children.
Or that's how I take this, anyway.
I know it's an old video, and I can't cement my reference, but I heard somewhere (elsewhere on YT, I think) that the mask is male to represent the love for the Prince, or as the reason behind the sin in the first place (the motivation, not the actual sin itself). That's why the prisoner is female, yet the mask is male.
Maybe the bug is the princess.when someone trys to relight the flame they transform right? I think the body is the prince or someone else but i dont think the lost sinner is a woman. I think she turned in to the bug.
I personally believe that the lost sinner is Quellana, her sins being that she asked someone to kill here family. And that she tortures herself thinking that she is to blame.
It would be really tragic if the Lost Sinner really was Quelana from DS1. Even after she lucked out by escaping the horrible fates of the rest of her family, she was still so consumed by guilt that she felt compelled to succeed where they failed. Only to be imprisoned for her efforts, with no one but the worms and maggots for company.
If it was either the Prince or Princess, it must be the Princess. In the spanish version, in the Lost Sinner's name it's stated that it's female (in spanish most nouns describe this, in this case it's "Pecadora", which is the female for "Pecador").
Nice video
I believe that the lost sinner is torturing her self because maybe she was forced to give herself to someone else and maybe she feels that she betrayed her love, the prince, but this is just speculation.
It is possible that the Sinner is the princess, from the Alken and Venn story. Their love , in the background of conflicts, should be considered a sin. If someone discovered their relationship, what is plausible, could have used this as an argument to lock her up. The bastille, as the game says, is a place where the undead are imprisioned, to avoid the spread of the curse. Sinner's rise is even further behind the bastille, in a place no one would think in visiting. Also, she is suffering the loss of her beloved, maybe the messages are for him. But, that theory would explain only her presence there. The question is why the bug/Witch of Izalith is there, and why a prisioner has a sword.
By the way, I just want to ask this: Is there any possibility of Mytha being the princess, and the Sinner someone else? Because there is the theory that Mytha is the princess and the Iron King the prince, but, if that is true, they wouldn't be in love already? Mytha is trying to be beautiful to the king, in order to gain his love, since he loves someone else.
The Prince of Alken could be the Smelter demon.
As for the Princess being the Lost sinner is highly possible.
I don't think it's the witch of Izalith, just merely one of her daughters.
Smelter demon was created by the old iron King after he tried to infuse a load of iron with life
I think it is the princess because in the german version of the gmae the lost sinner is called "Sünderin" witch meas that shes is a woman.
Princess with a beard? *NUTTING INTENSIFIES*
ok, i got a theory here
a powerful female pyromancer is trying to create a new first flame.
she saw the fuckup izalith did and instead tries to use her own body and soul to kindle the fire, dying in the process.
it's also possible the pyromancer got her hands on izaliths soul and used that aswell for even more power in the kindling
a bug of chaos is still spawned but a much weaker one, since this one is just made for a ordary(even if powerful) human
but still has atleast SOME of the pyromancers intellegence/mind
the smaller and weaker chaos bug can not survive by its own, so it finds a host, a big strong knight dude, the lost sinners body
(i guess you could argue that the lost sinners body might be the prince, maybe?)
when the bug infects the person he is slowly going to get corrupted and it ending up controlling him completely.
so with the last of his sanity he chooses to imprison himself in the sinners rise,
torturing and imprisoning the now-in-control pyromancer for her sins aswell as some of her followers.
some notes that back this up
-the lost sinner has a obvious "male" physique with broad shoulders, a very square shaped body, and a large torso and a beard
-both times the first flame tired to be artificially made a bug of chaos was spawned, so it's not unlikely that both times this happened the creator had to give her life for it.
-the lost sinner doesn't use pyromancies, just a sword
-it says that the lost sinner locked herself up, i think this is meant to mean that the body of her locked her up,
but wouldn't have made any sense if it was put that way
-darksouls 1 had the chaos bugs in lost izalith, if you did not kill them they would seemingly infest solaire and turn him against you,
seemingly slowly due to him still talking to you when he is defeated. thus having a bug that takes control of ones body and mind does not seem to outlandish.
-there are messages scribbled on the floor next to the lost sinner, maybe these are messages either to stay sane as long as possible or, more likely, messages to one another with them unable to directly communicate
-the original bug of chaos was also forced into using a puppet, but was much more powerful and was able to spawn/make one itself and was defenceless without the bed of chaos
My personal belief is that Lost Sinner IS the Witch if Izalith. Now be prepared, this is borderline fanfiction levels of speculation, but hear me out. So Sinner's rise is seen to be separate from the Lost Bastille. And further, the Lost Sinner's cell seems to be in a separate structure. My personal belief is that the Sinner's cell was actually built by The Ivory King and that Lost Sinner was found in the Chaos. Her guilt for what she did overwhelming her, and she was taken and imprisoned far away. It is important to note the direct translation of her name is the Forgotten Sinner, and this was her fate, to be locked away; Forgotten for all time. Her garb is designed to restrict her power, leaving her bound and lessened. She most likely vowed to never use fire again, hence why you can even enter her chamber without being incinerated instantly. But in an ironic twist of fate, Pyromancers that learn of her existence come to try and take from her the primordial secrets of fire, and maybe, the most foolish or mad of these students of flame, come seeking the power of the fabled Chaos Flame. It is very likely that Eigyl was one such seeker of knowledge who succeeded, as we find the Chaos Storm Pyromancy within the Iron Keep. She keeps the sword to deal with such foolish intruders who would dare disturb her punishment. Chaos Bugs follow her everywhere, a constant reminder of the horrors she birthed into the world, and the suffering her twisted, monstrous children inflicted upon it's inhabitants. As for what is etched in the floor, i cannot say. It could be the names of all those she felt she betrayed. Her children, her comrades and friends, snd/or the people of Izalith. Perhaps it is an account of their war with the Dragons. Or a list of all her lies and justifications. But more likely, it is simply the insane ramblings of one driven mad by guilt and shame. Eternally trying to atone for a crime, a sin, no being can truly judge. Sitting there in her cell as the centuries turn to millenia, and the relentless march of the ages erodes the stone around her, The Sinner waits. Locked away, forgotten by time, Lost to history...The Sinner waits. Regardless, I thank you for indulging me in my nonsensical ramblings about a fictional character we know virtually nothing about.
+Griffin Mazzara The game makes it pretty clear that the 4 old ones are not really the 4 lords, and they are just in possession of the 4 lords' souls.
Well since the Lost Sinner wanted to rekindle the first flame, it has to be the princess trying to bring the two Kingdoms together so she can be with the prince. Rekindling the flame was the sin she made thus putting her in jail. She regrets it since she cant ring the bell anymore so she tortures herself. My theory
He is "The Man in the Iron Mask".
Good video Dave :)
Uh no quelanna is the lost sinner pay attention to the creature that goes in her eye looks familiar?
It makes me wonder that perhaps the 4 grand bosses are perhaps the reincarnation of the previous dark souls bosses.
Lost sinner=witch of izalith or one of the daughters of chaos
The rotten/pharros=gravelord into
Dukes dear freja/duke tseldora=seathe the scales
The old iron king=lord gwynn
Lol dude well yeah that's not new,you even get souls of them in ng+.
Youre joking right? You better do...
I thought the Lost Sinner was the Chosen Undead of the first game... Something about punishing herself for re-lighting the first flame
WOAH! It all makes sense now. If the lost sinner is the princess of ven/belfry luna, and her and the iron king were in love... Well, he was stuck married to Mytha, however and didn't love her. Thus, the bells being made because they simply couldn't just say "lel fuck it" and walk out on their kingdoms to elope into the night. Thus Mytha went batshit insane and somehow turned into a headless gorgon.
In polish translation of the game it is implied that the sinner is female"zagniona Grzesznica". The word sinner is in female form.
I think all the random drop based conclusions are nullified by the items the spiders can drop
vaati made a video on that i think, it kind of makes sense really.
She might be the forth missing fire keeper.
+Error Code 69 I love that idea.