The way he mentions the new kickstarter "Desert War" expansion makes me think he doesn't know about the already available Spacing Guild and Smugglers expansion, both of which are excellent and add a lot more thematic gameplay to the spice mechanic.
You mentioned the wordyness: I just pulled down SW Rebellion for the first time 4 years and had to relearn the whole thing. I’m creating a document to really pair it down so I can be introduced at the 10k foot level and go down to more complexity quickly. I’d like to do it for all my games so I can quickly get started. Great review. Love Dune, can’t justify this one yet though.
At about 22 minutes don't forget that the region legions retreat to is decided by the opposing player. So the harkonnen retreating from the sandworm go where the atreidies decide they go. Which can be super nice for the atreidies. And of course vice versa for when atreidies legions are retreating from harkonnen.
Very good. Once again you have gone into areas others reviewers have not touched. Your review mirrored my favorite review (RTFM) that the speeding up of the game took away some of the strategy compared to WotR. Making it far more playable but not as a satisfying of an experience. BTW for big boards get a set of Board Butler map clips, they are great.
Different starting leaders and and different scenarios is part of the kickstarter version only. I wish the retail included these two i think it would have keep people more interested over multiple plays.
Great review. You mentioned near the end of the review that SW:R was one of your favourite games, but you initially rated it a ‘7’ (same as WotR and Dune War for Arrakis). Has SW:R gone up in score over time and would you say it’s your favourite of the 3?
Good review but I disagree with your conclusion. I won with House Atreides twice. It’s more balanced than you think, and this can get played a lot because it takes less than 3 hours! Amazing 2 players tactical and strategic game. Everything about this game is thematic! As you take out a harvester you think of the beginning scene of Dune Part 2, where the Fremen take out a harvester. As the Harkonnen player takes out a sietch, you mind pictures Fade taking out a sietch in the movie. I won’t go into detail about what happens towards the end. If you know you know. But when the Atreides player uses desert power to ride a worm across the board to exploit the enemy, you feel like you are riding the worm! Towards the beginning of the game it is fairly easy to take out sietches. However, as you eliminate each sietch you make it easier for House Atreides to bolster in the remaining sietches. It is also fairly easy for the Atreides player to disrupt the Harkonnen player from harvesting spice. The Atreides player needs to play to the cards he reveals. The player needs to be aggressive and bold in their decisions while still being cautious of the Harkonnens. It’s possible to get halfway to victory pretty quickly. The razors edge of this game comes right after the mid-game. As the Atreides player starts to get stronger and harness desert power. The Harkonnen player inches dangerously closer to clinching victory. The game become a dangerous race to the finish!
I came to the conclusion that House Artreides are weak if they think they have to get all their points through objectives. I'm convinced that it is quite balanced if the Artreides manages to rally a strike force to take out some Harkonnen bases. Which makes the game more thematic and tense. Also slows them considerably from running down all Artreides Sietches. We also thought that Harkonnen is much stronger than House Artreides after the first few games. They certainly feel that way if you get a lot of reinforcement cards or dice.
Cheers! Yep, lots of thematic things about this game- yet it doesn't quite have the theme meeting gameplay like War of the Ring for me. That had the elven rings, the fellowship moving up, troops running out, etc. In WFA, the gameplay can sometimes actually suffer from theme as you do atriedes missions that happen at a weird time. For balance, Atreides can definitely win! It's just that many factors in the game are slanted against them. They are harder to pilot as we said, which is the double whammy against them. It is easier for atreides to bolster the remaining sietches once some are taken, but also they always have less actions than hark and can't directly predict what they'll enforce (chani does help with this though). On the Hark end, think about how them taking sietches gets them closer to getting Feyd, which spells trouble for the Atriedes if spawned earlier than usual. There are still dangerous races to the finish too though, with epic showdowns! -Ashton
@@Shelfside I appreciate your team’s take. You always produce great content. I see what you’re saying about War of the Ring. That was a necessary sacrifice to keep it shorter, but overall, I respectfully disagree 😉. It will be interesting to see what the new expansion does. By the way, the original all-in did come with 2 expansions that change things up a bit.
hahaha. I just end up liking a lot of games but not loving them! Also I'd prefer not to review games that I strongly dislike. SWR is a 9/10! Ti4 is a 10/10! Ashes reborn is a 8/10. No BGG profile unfortunately :) -Ashton
For those of you who say that Harks are stronger than Atradies, you need to play more. If Harks are playing super aggresively (most new players do that), then you can counter play them by attacking the central bases aggressively. Based on my experiences, aggressive attradies are very strong if Harks don’t play defensively. If Harks play defensively, then Attredies can counter play by playing for the objectives. Once you get the hang of this, it is 50/50.
I really like the whole trio of games but my liebling will be Dune as that is my IP - great that all fans get a game for their favourite. This won me over with the shorter playtime although or WotR games are now below 2.5 hours.
It started where I was thinking “I have to get this!” But then the game details remind my why I didn’t get it. I play WOTR about once a week It’s a masterpiece.
Another well-rounded review and one that finally gave me relief from my regret. I think i was heavily swayed by the IP, and while i still like the idea of the game, my initial concern that it seems expensive for a reasonably light-on game (compared to the less expensive WotR and SW Rebellion) seem founded. I'd like it at half its price, so i'll wait for the Spring Sale... oh, that's video games, isnt it?
This game is amazing ❤ ... a 8 at least, probably a 9. Theme, gorgeous, fun... we only need MORE vehicles or factions ❤ to get a 9.5 or a 10! The KS version also gives you more heroes and a super Worm ❤
HOW DID HE GLOSS OVER THE SPACING GUILD EXPANSION!!! I cant believe they didn't know it existed but it was never addressed. It makes the spice trade a lot more tangible giving rewards to factions for interacting with it. Now house Atredies isn't only trying to stop Harkonnen's spice production to hurt them, but because Atredies profit doing so. It truly shifts the games focus back to spice production. In base game I found gathering spice felt a bit like a chore but with spacing guild it becomes a driving force in decision making. It is also extremely easy to implement and teach! When teaching a new Harkonnen players how to interact with the spice track I find the Spacing Guild expansion makes the rules easier to frame and for them to digest. Yeah it's technically more rules but going "Making X faction happy by meeting spice quota get this reward, fail and get X imperium ban" immediately clicks thematically and informs their strategy early on. Would never play without it and recommend only playing base game instead if BOTH players have never played War for Arrakis before.
@@ShelfsideMaybe when all the expansions are out you could look at them all for a video! Also thanks for the reply! You just earned yourself a sub WITH notifications. Keep up the good work!
@@jatedin1077 haha thanks! Yeah the idea is to have my buddy and I who played this game to play it multiple times with all the expansions (or however many we can get our hands on). Cheers! -Ashton
He is completely right about the rulebook, it isn't great. BUT he is wrong about balance, beginner games favor Harkonnen but two experienced players head to head slightly favor Atreides.
This game is pretty good. It's not without its flaws. I found that even with the updated rules, the game still favors the Harks. I think a way to balance this game would to make worms and storms more punishing.
This is *exactly* the comparison I’ve been wanting. I own Rebellion and have played WotR. Been trying to figure out if Dune was for me or not. Now I know. Thank you so much. 🎉
The Atreides are much stronger than they seem. Once you learn how to play them effectively, the game truly shines. It's unfortunate that the game is receiving low ratings because of its steep learning curve.
That's a perfectly valid reason to mark down a game in my opinion, a game of this scope needs to be enjoyable and close from the first playthrough, you shouldn't need to play near perfectly to have a balanced experience with one side
@SB-pr4dg I didn't say you need to play nearly perfectly. You just need to play well (as Arreides). But yes, this game requires several plays. If you want to play once or twice and move on, as most of the games nowadays, this is not the game. But it is the same thing that War of the Ring and the free people; at the beginning, everybody claimed that they underperformed.
Atreides are definitely stronger than some people have made them out to be. That said, the a designer said on BGG that it is intended for Harkonnen to be a bit stronger so that the Atreides feel like underdogs. It was intended to be a roughly 60-40 win rate split by design.
@aaronhandleman7277 That was right before the FAQs 3.0 were released. The new tweaks favor Atrides and are supposed to bring the balance to 50/50. Last tournament stats even suggest that Atreides are slightly stronger.
The asymmetry in this game is so weird. In the book and movies, the Fremen aren't the weakest faction at all. By the time they full-out attack the Harkonnen and the Emperor, it's not even a competition and they steamroll an opposition that is vastly inferior in both strength and numbers. It's never a question of "can the Fremen beat the Harkonnen?" It's all about how and what personal cost Paul Atreides will have to pay to get there (and how much he has to exploit the Fremen to achieve his victory). So this game is thematic in one sense while also completely missing one of the most important themes of the story, which is the personal struggle of Paul and how he is caught in a spiral of inevitability (with the defeat of the Harkonnen being inevitable, not improbable).
You gave dune conquest and diplomacy an 8, and this is a 7? Then you say sw rebellion is one of your fav games, but you gave it a 7? Your scoring is all over the place. Just avoid scoring to have at least an appearance of coherence.
SWR Rebellion was initially a 7/10 on review! Now it's a 9/10 easily. Dune conquest and diplomacy is an 8/10 still from me, although on the lower end of the integer. The scores are meant to reflect how we feel when making the review, can't really go back and change the videos years later after we play the game more and alter our tastes :) -Ashton
The way he mentions the new kickstarter "Desert War" expansion makes me think he doesn't know about the already available Spacing Guild and Smugglers expansion, both of which are excellent and add a lot more thematic gameplay to the spice mechanic.
well snap, I didn't know about that! Time to take a look -Ashton
You mentioned the wordyness: I just pulled down SW Rebellion for the first time 4 years and had to relearn the whole thing. I’m creating a document to really pair it down so I can be introduced at the 10k foot level and go down to more complexity quickly. I’d like to do it for all my games so I can quickly get started. Great review. Love Dune, can’t justify this one yet though.
At about 22 minutes don't forget that the region legions retreat to is decided by the opposing player. So the harkonnen retreating from the sandworm go where the atreidies decide they go. Which can be super nice for the atreidies. And of course vice versa for when atreidies legions are retreating from harkonnen.
Yep, that's how it is! I think I should have made it more obvious in the writing though -Ashton
Would love to see Undaunted 2200: Callisto.
Thanks for the vid. ❤
@@Anwar-AT Did you watch Shut-up and Sit-down’s review?
Very good. Once again you have gone into areas others reviewers have not touched. Your review mirrored my favorite review (RTFM) that the speeding up of the game took away some of the strategy compared to WotR. Making it far more playable but not as a satisfying of an experience. BTW for big boards get a set of Board Butler map clips, they are great.
Different starting leaders and and different scenarios is part of the kickstarter version only. I wish the retail included these two i think it would have keep people more interested over multiple plays.
Dang. I need to BUY BUY BUY then! -Ashton
you're right, but it's easy enough to proxy them
Great review. You mentioned near the end of the review that SW:R was one of your favourite games, but you initially rated it a ‘7’ (same as WotR and Dune War for Arrakis). Has SW:R gone up in score over time and would you say it’s your favourite of the 3?
Yep! SWR has definitely gone up in score over time (which is very uncommon), it's definitely a 9/10. -Ashton
@@Shelfsidewhat about Root?
@@nin_4_me58 definitely a 4/10, I haven't played it since my video of me marathoning it digitally! -Ashton
Good review but I disagree with your conclusion.
I won with House Atreides twice. It’s more balanced than you think, and this can get played a lot because it takes less than 3 hours! Amazing 2 players tactical and strategic game.
Everything about this game is thematic! As you take out a harvester you think of the beginning scene of Dune Part 2, where the Fremen take out a harvester. As the Harkonnen player takes out a sietch, you mind pictures Fade taking out a sietch in the movie. I won’t go into detail about what happens towards the end. If you know you know. But when the Atreides player uses desert power to ride a worm across the board to exploit the enemy, you feel like you are riding the worm!
Towards the beginning of the game it is fairly easy to take out sietches. However, as you eliminate each sietch you make it easier for House Atreides to bolster in the remaining sietches. It is also fairly easy for the Atreides player to disrupt the Harkonnen player from harvesting spice.
The Atreides player needs to play to the cards he reveals. The player needs to be aggressive and bold in their decisions while still being cautious of the Harkonnens. It’s possible to get halfway to victory pretty quickly.
The razors edge of this game comes right after the mid-game. As the Atreides player starts to get stronger and harness desert power. The Harkonnen player inches dangerously closer to clinching victory. The game become a dangerous race to the finish!
I came to the conclusion that House Artreides are weak if they think they have to get all their points through objectives. I'm convinced that it is quite balanced if the Artreides manages to rally a strike force to take out some Harkonnen bases. Which makes the game more thematic and tense. Also slows them considerably from running down all Artreides Sietches.
We also thought that Harkonnen is much stronger than House Artreides after the first few games. They certainly feel that way if you get a lot of reinforcement cards or dice.
Cheers! Yep, lots of thematic things about this game- yet it doesn't quite have the theme meeting gameplay like War of the Ring for me. That had the elven rings, the fellowship moving up, troops running out, etc. In WFA, the gameplay can sometimes actually suffer from theme as you do atriedes missions that happen at a weird time.
For balance, Atreides can definitely win! It's just that many factors in the game are slanted against them. They are harder to pilot as we said, which is the double whammy against them. It is easier for atreides to bolster the remaining sietches once some are taken, but also they always have less actions than hark and can't directly predict what they'll enforce (chani does help with this though). On the Hark end, think about how them taking sietches gets them closer to getting Feyd, which spells trouble for the Atriedes if spawned earlier than usual.
There are still dangerous races to the finish too though, with epic showdowns! -Ashton
@@Shelfside I appreciate your team’s take. You always produce great content. I see what you’re saying about War of the Ring. That was a necessary sacrifice to keep it shorter, but overall, I respectfully disagree 😉. It will be interesting to see what the new expansion does. By the way, the original all-in did come with 2 expansions that change things up a bit.
Did you play/try the other 2 already available expansions? Thoughts?
will have to get around to it! -Ashton
I've played twice; once 1v1, and once 2v2 and won both times as Atreides.
This game is absolutely stellar. Dripping with theme and super tense
And apparently unbalanced.
@@IndianaGeologist it isn't, beginner games favor Harkonnen but two experienced players head to head slightly favor Atreides
@@bomholmm from this review....it is. And I'll trust Shelfsides review over your random comment.
@@IndianaGeologist recent online gameplay stats disagree.
Are all your scores 7/10 😅. Do you have a bgg profile? Would love to see which games are 8/9
hahaha. I just end up liking a lot of games but not loving them! Also I'd prefer not to review games that I strongly dislike. SWR is a 9/10! Ti4 is a 10/10! Ashes reborn is a 8/10. No BGG profile unfortunately :) -Ashton
Hawat Schemeing is meant to be a balancing mechanic. A downside for drawing Hark cards. That's the entire point. It isn't a con.
I hope you get to review Arcs eventualy. I would love to hear your toughts on this epic sci fi new game.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who also have said gene besserit before lol
haha it was initially a joke at one of our reviews, then it just became part of my vocabulary -Ashton
Yes, the 4th book is SOOO good.
Aww yeah - love this game!
When is your top 10 of all time coming guys! Miss those videos
For those of you who say that Harks are stronger than Atradies, you need to play more. If Harks are playing super aggresively (most new players do that), then you can counter play them by attacking the central bases aggressively. Based on my experiences, aggressive attradies are very strong if Harks don’t play defensively. If Harks play defensively, then Attredies can counter play by playing for the objectives. Once you get the hang of this, it is 50/50.
You really know the game. People complaining that the Atr sucks dont play well or are dummies
yeah, the harks are only favored in games between beginners
I really like the whole trio of games but my liebling will be Dune as that is my IP - great that all fans get a game for their favourite. This won me over with the shorter playtime although or WotR games are now below 2.5 hours.
Yea really digging this game yoo
It started where I was thinking “I have to get this!” But then the game details remind my why I didn’t get it. I play WOTR about once a week It’s a masterpiece.
Just ordered
And Dune WFA might be better!
Thank you for the review
Feyd-Rautha looks like the guy from rocky horror picture show
Commenting for the algorithm. Only wish I knew someone who owned this or war of the ring since I can't justify buying it myself.
hah, hopefully they can teach you, because MAN are these 2 games insane to understand via the rulebook! Thanks! -Ashton
Love this game!
Another well-rounded review and one that finally gave me relief from my regret.
I think i was heavily swayed by the IP, and while i still like the idea of the game, my initial concern that it seems expensive for a reasonably light-on game (compared to the less expensive WotR and SW Rebellion) seem founded.
I'd like it at half its price, so i'll wait for the Spring Sale... oh, that's video games, isnt it?
This intro makes me want to buy the game already and I hate miniates games damn.
This game is amazing ❤ ... a 8 at least, probably a 9.
Theme, gorgeous, fun... we only need MORE vehicles or factions ❤ to get a 9.5 or a 10!
The KS version also gives you more heroes and a super Worm ❤
HOW DID HE GLOSS OVER THE SPACING GUILD EXPANSION!!! I cant believe they didn't know it existed but it was never addressed.
It makes the spice trade a lot more tangible giving rewards to factions for interacting with it. Now house Atredies isn't only trying to stop Harkonnen's spice production to hurt them, but because Atredies profit doing so. It truly shifts the games focus back to spice production. In base game I found gathering spice felt a bit like a chore but with spacing guild it becomes a driving force in decision making.
It is also extremely easy to implement and teach! When teaching a new Harkonnen players how to interact with the spice track I find the Spacing Guild expansion makes the rules easier to frame and for them to digest. Yeah it's technically more rules but going "Making X faction happy by meeting spice quota get this reward, fail and get X imperium ban" immediately clicks thematically and informs their strategy early on. Would never play without it and recommend only playing base game instead if BOTH players have never played War for Arrakis before.
Yeah he didn't mention the two already available expansions, Spacing Guild and Smugglers. he may not know they exist
I didn't know about it, hah! I guess I'll have to try to cover it now :) -Ashton
@@ShelfsideMaybe when all the expansions are out you could look at them all for a video! Also thanks for the reply! You just earned yourself a sub WITH notifications. Keep up the good work!
@@jatedin1077 haha thanks! Yeah the idea is to have my buddy and I who played this game to play it multiple times with all the expansions (or however many we can get our hands on). Cheers! -Ashton
Ah-Rack-Kiss
A ruckus?
@@virgilalighieri7192Arruckus!
Soulblighter! Those first two games are still my favourites of all time.
He is completely right about the rulebook, it isn't great. BUT he is wrong about balance, beginner games favor Harkonnen but two experienced players head to head slightly favor Atreides.
This game is pretty good. It's not without its flaws.
I found that even with the updated rules, the game still favors the Harks.
I think a way to balance this game would to make worms and storms more punishing.
Safe to say people have to get their spelling right.
This is *exactly* the comparison I’ve been wanting. I own Rebellion and have played WotR. Been trying to figure out if Dune was for me or not. Now I know.
Thank you so much. 🎉
Glad to help mate! -Ashton
The Atreides are much stronger than they seem. Once you learn how to play them effectively, the game truly shines. It's unfortunate that the game is receiving low ratings because of its steep learning curve.
That's a perfectly valid reason to mark down a game in my opinion, a game of this scope needs to be enjoyable and close from the first playthrough, you shouldn't need to play near perfectly to have a balanced experience with one side
@SB-pr4dg I didn't say you need to play nearly perfectly. You just need to play well (as Arreides). But yes, this game requires several plays. If you want to play once or twice and move on, as most of the games nowadays, this is not the game. But it is the same thing that War of the Ring and the free people; at the beginning, everybody claimed that they underperformed.
Atreides are definitely stronger than some people have made them out to be. That said, the a designer said on BGG that it is intended for Harkonnen to be a bit stronger so that the Atreides feel like underdogs. It was intended to be a roughly 60-40 win rate split by design.
@aaronhandleman7277 That was right before the FAQs 3.0 were released. The new tweaks favor Atrides and are supposed to bring the balance to 50/50. Last tournament stats even suggest that Atreides are slightly stronger.
@@joseguirao7979 That's fair - a lot of people are playing straight from the rulebook though.
I must have a dirty mind, but every time I see those sand worm sculpts and their flesh-like color it made me think of....
Not as bad as the dune uprising Sand worm miniatures.
.... priapulida?
@@Vadjong Well, that's one guess. ; )
... phallaceae?
Twisted churros
I sure hope you got kelp comming
Are you guys ever gonna get around to that Human Punishment The Beginning review? lol
ha ha ha ha ha. Really not sure -Ashton
@@Shelfside I just picked it up and loved it! You should definitely do it sometime soon!
The asymmetry in this game is so weird. In the book and movies, the Fremen aren't the weakest faction at all. By the time they full-out attack the Harkonnen and the Emperor, it's not even a competition and they steamroll an opposition that is vastly inferior in both strength and numbers. It's never a question of "can the Fremen beat the Harkonnen?" It's all about how and what personal cost Paul Atreides will have to pay to get there (and how much he has to exploit the Fremen to achieve his victory). So this game is thematic in one sense while also completely missing one of the most important themes of the story, which is the personal struggle of Paul and how he is caught in a spiral of inevitability (with the defeat of the Harkonnen being inevitable, not improbable).
You gave dune conquest and diplomacy an 8, and this is a 7? Then you say sw rebellion is one of your fav games, but you gave it a 7? Your scoring is all over the place. Just avoid scoring to have at least an appearance of coherence.
SWR Rebellion was initially a 7/10 on review! Now it's a 9/10 easily. Dune conquest and diplomacy is an 8/10 still from me, although on the lower end of the integer. The scores are meant to reflect how we feel when making the review, can't really go back and change the videos years later after we play the game more and alter our tastes :) -Ashton
of course cmon would butcher this and of course swr is the king and wotr is the queen. WFA is the jest.
The expansions on this game are so ridiculously overpriced
What is this 40k ripoff?
Are you fkn kidding me
40K ripoff? You know that Dune is ~25 years older than 40k, and the direct main influence, dont you? So 40k is a ripoff of Dune, poor git......
@@kaygeehimself9027 it says 2024 on the website LOL
@@GarredHATES doesn't take much to google something and win over your ignorance...
@@francescodefilippis9384 yeah I did google and win