Miracoulon's Buyable Missions mod could work as a way to prevent abusing time. (You dont actually have to buy the missions, there is an option to make the missions free) It allows you to chooce the modifiers for a mission or in this case choosing no modifiers. There is an option to randomize the mission seed as well.
I feel like just allowing the time travel exploit would be cool for longer runs. Kind of like set-seed minecraft speedruns. They are very much still interesting to watch because it removes part of the RNG aspect, allowing runners to get much better at the run they are attempting skillwise because it requires less resets.
hypothetically ofc, honestly id like to have two ladder sets for fastest to all 25. one that allows manipulations and one that doesnt. as long as the the runner says what they are doing and are honest about it idc. both are exciting in their own ways, non-manips especially in races.
To me, the obvious answer is to set a standard time for speed runs to be started on, so that every run that people do have the same seed of missions, maybe something like thr exact time and day drg was 1.0 was released or any other arbitrary time, but have it be the standard
I believe that there should be no changing of system clocks during runs. That said, I have no qualms with changing it prior to a run, think of Minecraft and its set seed category. The sequence of resets will be the same across runs but the times the runners enter and each mission's seed will vary. Parallel to what happens in Minecraft set seed, when a better/more optimal start time is found, all new runs start to use it.
I think that both should be categories. Time travel enabled and disabled. But with time travel enabled I would enable it to be set only at the start of the run, no modifying during the run. You need to provide your system time (either show or write) of the start of your run, as it is easily verifiable if it is the time you started at.
I think the problem with setting your system clock could be solved by using a random number generator to set your system clock to a random time prior to starting the speed run. It's like starting the run with a random seed. But I am by no means a technical player so take my word with a grain of salt.
Using minecraft as an example, runs with random seeds and modifiers could absolutely still be entertaining to watch regardless of the advantages gained, as long as players aren’t manipulating using the clock as you say, I feel like a quick showing of the date and time at the start of a run wouldn’t be overly intrusive, but I’m not an expert. On the other hand, using the clock method as it’s own category could be fun as well, having all players use a specific date and time for their runs. Granted the seeds would still be random, but I feel it would limit the amount RNG played in creating an advantage. Speed runners are not unfamiliar with RNG being a factor, as long as it’s to a reasonable degree.
As a watcher I would want to watch DRG speedruns with positive modifiers as for one the modifiers are not always there so most of the gameplay will be just skill and game knowledge, but whenever a positive modifier is active that effects the dwarfs themselves, say rich atmosphere, I want see if the player would do anything differently because of the buff they received for that mission. Yea it might not feel fair to a speedrunner that gets no buffs for their run but someone else gets 5 double XP missions in a row, but the more scenarios there is to watch, the more I can learn and apply to my games in order to play better myself.
from a viewers perspective having double xp on every mission is still entertaining becouse it doesnt change the seed. i imagine like most other speed run comunities the best strategy would be found and in terms of this run it would be a date and time combo that didnt need to be reset over and over but just gave you a long string of missions with double xp. seems like once that perfect golden split date and time was found then its a matter of who can beat 15 missions all with double xp the fastest
i think it should be two categorie. It is so fun to watch some minecraft run with very good seed that are curated to make the best time. And if you put two categorie you can hope that people would less abuse the no time skip categorie :)
Mutators could also be beneficial too because they increase hazard bonus and some of them (such as cave leech cluster or exploder infestation) are not a huge setback at all
Personally, I see the time travel exploit as a valuable asset to improve times. And since it is replicable by simply going to that point in time yourself, moderators can easily verify the validity of the timestamp and competitors can use the same strat without anyone gaining a significant advantage other than seed luck, which as you pointed out in the CHIV% video shouldn't really factor in on a run this many missions. There are many Pokemon speedruns going for specific system times to get beneficial seed behaviors so I don't see it being a bad thing here.
Not making a specific mod that regulates how many positive modifiers a player can get will always allow for some sneaky cheater to have an insane speedrun and say that it was luck, DRG is an RNG heavy game, and it will never be a perfectly fair competition without modding the game, modded rulesets are not often seen in a positive light, but it can be pulled of... Risk of Resources (the speedrunning community for Risk of rain 2) completely changed the rules of the game through mods to make the format more watchable and exciting in general while allowing RNG and skill expression to be at play for all runners.
(Disclaimer: I know nothing about DRG speedrunning, but I have an interest in speedruns. I could be talking out my ass.) Solution: No matter if DXP is banned or encouraged (with or without time travel), a mod that allows for re-rolling missions. Saves everyone’s time, whether it’s ‘oh I don’t have to ignore this mission because I can just swap it for a new one’ or ‘need a new double xp, I could time travel but I can just reroll like 40 times and get some new results.’ Alternatively there are category extensions, let people run what they prefer to. If a category dies at least you now know what the preference is for runs.
Cheaters will always cheat. You need to get a mod to disallow all modifiers to get as level a playing field as possible. All mission types are up at least once every rotation, the only RNG then comes from the length and difficulty and which biome the missions spawn in. You did not mention brews, which I think should be allowed on a new account since it will add a level of strategy if you decide to play in biome X at the start to get starch nuts to unlock a specific brew to make this other mission type easier.
Is there not a way to make a mod that simply gets rid of the time travel exploit entirely, therefore allowing the RNG of modifiers to be random without having to worry about bad actors utilizing it?
They can make one but that still leaves us with just waiting for double-xp mission. Considering real time isn't doesn't really says a lot about a run since it relies on runners' PC, connection, etc. So one run could be like 4 hours of game time but 24 real time and others like 7/8 respectively
Theoretically this is only a problem if some people are using it. Its like seeded minecraft runs, theres a fun in finding the perfect moment for optimal play too. Could even have a "seeded" category where time travel is allowed, and an "unseed" category where the systen clock info needs to be displayed
I think its much more interesting to rank player performance rather than their luck dependent mission completion time. So what i suggest is to give them both a ranking in time aswell as how "lucky" their run has been, that way you could gauge player performance both by completion time aswell as how lucky or rather in this context unlucky they were, still giving a lot of incentive to continue with "bad" runs.
If there's no good way to moderate it then just make it legal, or as another user suggested have a standard time that all speedruns must be set to in order to be legal, if there's enough interest you could even divide the leader board into multiple sub-categories so people can go with the rules they'll have the most fun with.
Players should also submit the date and hour they were playing and no run older than 7 days should be allowed. This will control the amount of system hour shenanigans and give mods a way to look after cheats. Also, you should do 2 categories. A Modifier allowed one and a Modifierless run. Atleast that's how I think it should be done
Regulating the time is way to cumbersome, i don't think this category can ever work if people are hung up on that. My sugestion is to allow everyboddy to "time travel" and have a comunity page with known good dates to start.
I think it's worth considering the impact any of the restrictions would have on the fun of the run. Is it worth making the run less fun and potentially dissuade people from playing to prevent *potential* cheating?
only 2 options i can think of are keeping the runs fairly rng dependant as they are, or set a standard time and date for runs of each category where they must be started (may be cumbersome, not sure how it works exactly). either that or make a mod that disables mutators as you said lol
Why not two categories? Kind of like an Any% and NoDXP% - a category where date and time zones are required but players are allowed to choose double xp missions - category with either no double xp's allowed, or with a mod for no double xp
Quick question, what upgrades and overclock do you run on the deepcore in the Time travel section? The amount of dmg, firerate and precision is kinda insane to make me be baffled.
Removing meta sweat would be wonderful and remove a lot of obnoxious back-end clutter for the run. I do not see a way to achieve it though, if it's "legal" people will do it for the gains. The explicit reasons I don't watch things like Minecraft and Valheim speedruns is exactly due to the seeding issue. However you just can't order people to "blind seed" as it's 100% on the honor system despite that vastly being my preference and is significantly closer to speeding through the intended play experience. The only two solutions I see is your mentioned "show time / date /zone" or having everyone play the same assignment (but not individual mission) seeds. Both are clunky. At least with the "Chiv%" the first 10 the missions are always modifier free. The run ends as soon as the Scout starts to feel like something though at level 6-8 though. You un-ironically should get in touch with a modder who would be capable of just giving the players an assignment that is 1 of every mission type without modifiers, but at minimum length and complexity each. "Build an Assignment" and "Build a Mission" would be a great mod with wide reaching uses other than just this category, and it wouldn't be locked behind Mira's mod that does it but has required progression. Then GauntletScoutAny%, and GuantletFreshStartAny% could exist, especially if we use some other math that isn't tied to high level areas of the system clock (i.e. day, time zone, and week) to randomize the seeds. This last part is the hard part as computers can't just *generate* random numbers, it's why System Clock based approaches are so popular. Lastly if GSG had simply made the "rogue-like" deep dives instead of delving directly into another new game when they kept feature creeping it this idea wouldn't even be tossed around with. When you do the rogue-like you effectively start fresh, do 3 short non-dread missions, Gold gives credits directly, you have to find other mineral types are used for upgrades between missions, secondaries gives upgrade materials, and capstone it with a fifth mission being a single Dread with Toughness+2 turned on. Your player character doesn't get any credits or xp until your die or you win based on performance, but ignoring most things found in the run. Normal run is Haz2, 3, 4, and 5. Elite run is Haz4, 5, 5+, 5++. It's work, but it's less work than an entire new game.
But can't u just time-travel to have only good short/long (idk which one is better but i bet one of them IS better for xp gain) missions in good biomes etc etc?
Bro you are overcomplicating things. First of all it's not a highly competitive thing - speedrunning drg, you are not gonna get a huge prize for it and if it's heavily manipulated people should aknowledge that. The other thing is to just make a mod that disables modificators all together or just postive ones. I think it just enough randomness as it should. Basically just the pool of mission types and the seed. Everything else is in your full control. Also only in-game time should get counted but, I believe, you already said that
The idea to run OR to watch a 7 hours run does not sound exciting, to be honest. I would like if it was always double xp mission just to make the run shorter. Although, I don't like the idea of replaying one mission over and over for 3 hours xd Maybe a mod that will set double xp on every mission? And you just play every mission type in a cicle. Let's just talk about the point of this. We want to get to the first promotion as quick as possbile. What do I want to showcase by making the run longer and from the new save file while doing that? More desicion making as for general situations in missons and as for the upgrade tree. I don't want to showcase my endurance by playing the game for 7 hours with full focus. That's my take, at least.
Drg is supposed to be played in a certain phase to be efficient in modded difficulties. You HAVE to be efficient, but theres no speedrunning involved on any level. But hell yeah this guy is a haz 5 ”speedrunner” Makes 0 sense to me. Also, in a game with randomly generated maps? Bro
Nah that’s cap, most of the modded gameplay you can find is people sitting in bunkers or tunnels to fight swarms and then just waddling forward once everything is dead. The balance of objectives and combat in the base game is pretty good, almost never have to drop everything and fight vs modded where the entire point (that I can see) is to make the combat significantly more time consuming and prominent. You can be super inefficient and still win modded hazards just like you can with 5, however you cannot be as fast on modded difficulties as you can with 5, the combat pressure will slow you down at least a little. I’m sure some people are fast and efficient in modded but they’re going to be slowed down by modded difficulty vs how fast they could go in vanilla. This isn’t really a “modded vs everybody” argument, but seems like you got that chip on ya. Im never gonna play modded predominantly man it’s not gonna happen
Off topic here, I do wish we had the option to purchase support items in missions, like having a Bet-C being deployed with the dwarvs at the cost of like 25-50k creds, or having us be able to buy a Jetty Boot box, or even have a little mini mule that holds enough nitra for one supply pod. Also seeing speed runs of drg would be neat to watch, honestly id say make double xp banned and call it even tbh.
Aint no way AxisKronos™ has taken the special powder bhop pill
Miracoulon's Buyable Missions mod could work as a way to prevent abusing time. (You dont actually have to buy the missions, there is an option to make the missions free)
It allows you to chooce the modifiers for a mission or in this case choosing no modifiers.
There is an option to randomize the mission seed as well.
I feel like just allowing the time travel exploit would be cool for longer runs. Kind of like set-seed minecraft speedruns. They are very much still interesting to watch because it removes part of the RNG aspect, allowing runners to get much better at the run they are attempting skillwise because it requires less resets.
Speedrun to find the rare mushroom in fungus bog! Start a new game file and count the mission time until it is found.
hypothetically ofc, honestly id like to have two ladder sets for fastest to all 25. one that allows manipulations and one that doesnt. as long as the the runner says what they are doing and are honest about it idc. both are exciting in their own ways, non-manips especially in races.
To me, the obvious answer is to set a standard time for speed runs to be started on, so that every run that people do have the same seed of missions, maybe something like thr exact time and day drg was 1.0 was released or any other arbitrary time, but have it be the standard
I believe that there should be no changing of system clocks during runs. That said, I have no qualms with changing it prior to a run, think of Minecraft and its set seed category. The sequence of resets will be the same across runs but the times the runners enter and each mission's seed will vary. Parallel to what happens in Minecraft set seed, when a better/more optimal start time is found, all new runs start to use it.
I agree. I think clock changing should be in its own catagory.
I think that both should be categories. Time travel enabled and disabled. But with time travel enabled I would enable it to be set only at the start of the run, no modifying during the run. You need to provide your system time (either show or write) of the start of your run, as it is easily verifiable if it is the time you started at.
amog us (on a side note, it's great to see your gameplay again, even if it's just meant as background footage)
I think the problem with setting your system clock could be solved by using a random number generator to set your system clock to a random time prior to starting the speed run. It's like starting the run with a random seed. But I am by no means a technical player so take my word with a grain of salt.
i like this idea too.
Using minecraft as an example, runs with random seeds and modifiers could absolutely still be entertaining to watch regardless of the advantages gained, as long as players aren’t manipulating using the clock as you say, I feel like a quick showing of the date and time at the start of a run wouldn’t be overly intrusive, but I’m not an expert. On the other hand, using the clock method as it’s own category could be fun as well, having all players use a specific date and time for their runs. Granted the seeds would still be random, but I feel it would limit the amount RNG played in creating an advantage. Speed runners are not unfamiliar with RNG being a factor, as long as it’s to a reasonable degree.
As a watcher I would want to watch DRG speedruns with positive modifiers as for one the modifiers are not always there so most of the gameplay will be just skill and game knowledge, but whenever a positive modifier is active that effects the dwarfs themselves, say rich atmosphere, I want see if the player would do anything differently because of the buff they received for that mission. Yea it might not feel fair to a speedrunner that gets no buffs for their run but someone else gets 5 double XP missions in a row, but the more scenarios there is to watch, the more I can learn and apply to my games in order to play better myself.
from a viewers perspective having double xp on every mission is still entertaining becouse it doesnt change the seed. i imagine like most other speed run comunities the best strategy would be found and in terms of this run it would be a date and time combo that didnt need to be reset over and over but just gave you a long string of missions with double xp. seems like once that perfect golden split date and time was found then its a matter of who can beat 15 missions all with double xp the fastest
i think it should be two categorie. It is so fun to watch some minecraft run with very good seed that are curated to make the best time. And if you put two categorie you can hope that people would less abuse the no time skip categorie :)
Mutators could also be beneficial too because they increase hazard bonus and some of them (such as cave leech cluster or exploder infestation) are not a huge setback at all
Personally, I see the time travel exploit as a valuable asset to improve times. And since it is replicable by simply going to that point in time yourself, moderators can easily verify the validity of the timestamp and competitors can use the same strat without anyone gaining a significant advantage other than seed luck, which as you pointed out in the CHIV% video shouldn't really factor in on a run this many missions. There are many Pokemon speedruns going for specific system times to get beneficial seed behaviors so I don't see it being a bad thing here.
Not making a specific mod that regulates how many positive modifiers a player can get will always allow for some sneaky cheater to have an insane speedrun and say that it was luck, DRG is an RNG heavy game, and it will never be a perfectly fair competition without modding the game, modded rulesets are not often seen in a positive light, but it can be pulled of... Risk of Resources (the speedrunning community for Risk of rain 2) completely changed the rules of the game through mods to make the format more watchable and exciting in general while allowing RNG and skill expression to be at play for all runners.
(Disclaimer: I know nothing about DRG speedrunning, but I have an interest in speedruns. I could be talking out my ass.)
Solution:
No matter if DXP is banned or encouraged (with or without time travel), a mod that allows for re-rolling missions.
Saves everyone’s time, whether it’s ‘oh I don’t have to ignore this mission because I can just swap it for a new one’ or ‘need a new double xp, I could time travel but I can just reroll like 40 times and get some new results.’
Alternatively there are category extensions, let people run what they prefer to. If a category dies at least you now know what the preference is for runs.
Cheaters will always cheat. You need to get a mod to disallow all modifiers to get as level a playing field as possible. All mission types are up at least once every rotation, the only RNG then comes from the length and difficulty and which biome the missions spawn in.
You did not mention brews, which I think should be allowed on a new account since it will add a level of strategy if you decide to play in biome X at the start to get starch nuts to unlock a specific brew to make this other mission type easier.
Is there not a way to make a mod that simply gets rid of the time travel exploit entirely, therefore allowing the RNG of modifiers to be random without having to worry about bad actors utilizing it?
They can make one but that still leaves us with just waiting for double-xp mission. Considering real time isn't doesn't really says a lot about a run since it relies on runners' PC, connection, etc. So one run could be like 4 hours of game time but 24 real time and others like 7/8 respectively
Your voice is just so melodic, I have genuinely lost GALLONS UPON GALLONS to you! I just can't stop. I don't know what's wrong with me
Theoretically this is only a problem if some people are using it. Its like seeded minecraft runs, theres a fun in finding the perfect moment for optimal play too. Could even have a "seeded" category where time travel is allowed, and an "unseed" category where the systen clock info needs to be displayed
I think its much more interesting to rank player performance rather than their luck dependent mission completion time. So what i suggest is to give them both a ranking in time aswell as how "lucky" their run has been, that way you could gauge player performance both by completion time aswell as how lucky or rather in this context unlucky they were, still giving a lot of incentive to continue with "bad" runs.
If there's no good way to moderate it then just make it legal, or as another user suggested have a standard time that all speedruns must be set to in order to be legal, if there's enough interest you could even divide the leader board into multiple sub-categories so people can go with the rules they'll have the most fun with.
Players should also submit the date and hour they were playing and no run older than 7 days should be allowed. This will control the amount of system hour shenanigans and give mods a way to look after cheats. Also, you should do 2 categories. A Modifier allowed one and a Modifierless run. Atleast that's how I think it should be done
It may sounds stupid but I'll put it here anyway.
What if 2xXP missions time counts as double the time spent?
Regulating the time is way to cumbersome, i don't think this category can ever work if people are hung up on that. My sugestion is to allow everyboddy to "time travel" and have a comunity page with known good dates to start.
I think it's worth considering the impact any of the restrictions would have on the fun of the run. Is it worth making the run less fun and potentially dissuade people from playing to prevent *potential* cheating?
only 2 options i can think of are keeping the runs fairly rng dependant as they are, or set a standard time and date for runs of each category where they must be started (may be cumbersome, not sure how it works exactly). either that or make a mod that disables mutators as you said lol
Why not two categories? Kind of like an Any% and NoDXP%
- a category where date and time zones are required but players are allowed to choose double xp missions
- category with either no double xp's allowed, or with a mod for no double xp
Quick question, what upgrades and overclock do you run on the deepcore in the Time travel section?
The amount of dmg, firerate and precision is kinda insane to make me be baffled.
Removing meta sweat would be wonderful and remove a lot of obnoxious back-end clutter for the run. I do not see a way to achieve it though, if it's "legal" people will do it for the gains. The explicit reasons I don't watch things like Minecraft and Valheim speedruns is exactly due to the seeding issue. However you just can't order people to "blind seed" as it's 100% on the honor system despite that vastly being my preference and is significantly closer to speeding through the intended play experience.
The only two solutions I see is your mentioned "show time / date /zone" or having everyone play the same assignment (but not individual mission) seeds. Both are clunky. At least with the "Chiv%" the first 10 the missions are always modifier free. The run ends as soon as the Scout starts to feel like something though at level 6-8 though.
You un-ironically should get in touch with a modder who would be capable of just giving the players an assignment that is 1 of every mission type without modifiers, but at minimum length and complexity each. "Build an Assignment" and "Build a Mission" would be a great mod with wide reaching uses other than just this category, and it wouldn't be locked behind Mira's mod that does it but has required progression. Then GauntletScoutAny%, and GuantletFreshStartAny% could exist, especially if we use some other math that isn't tied to high level areas of the system clock (i.e. day, time zone, and week) to randomize the seeds. This last part is the hard part as computers can't just *generate* random numbers, it's why System Clock based approaches are so popular.
Lastly if GSG had simply made the "rogue-like" deep dives instead of delving directly into another new game when they kept feature creeping it this idea wouldn't even be tossed around with. When you do the rogue-like you effectively start fresh, do 3 short non-dread missions, Gold gives credits directly, you have to find other mineral types are used for upgrades between missions, secondaries gives upgrade materials, and capstone it with a fifth mission being a single Dread with Toughness+2 turned on. Your player character doesn't get any credits or xp until your die or you win based on performance, but ignoring most things found in the run. Normal run is Haz2, 3, 4, and 5. Elite run is Haz4, 5, 5+, 5++. It's work, but it's less work than an entire new game.
i'm gonna assume by the music choice that you like Stealing Fire
But can't u just time-travel to have only good short/long (idk which one is better but i bet one of them IS better for xp gain) missions in good biomes etc etc?
Just ask Ghost Ship Game a "Speedrun mode"
Bro you are overcomplicating things. First of all it's not a highly competitive thing - speedrunning drg, you are not gonna get a huge prize for it and if it's heavily manipulated people should aknowledge that. The other thing is to just make a mod that disables modificators all together or just postive ones. I think it just enough randomness as it should. Basically just the pool of mission types and the seed. Everything else is in your full control. Also only in-game time should get counted but, I believe, you already said that
The idea to run OR to watch a 7 hours run does not sound exciting, to be honest. I would like if it was always double xp mission just to make the run shorter. Although, I don't like the idea of replaying one mission over and over for 3 hours xd Maybe a mod that will set double xp on every mission? And you just play every mission type in a cicle.
Let's just talk about the point of this. We want to get to the first promotion as quick as possbile. What do I want to showcase by making the run longer and from the new save file while doing that? More desicion making as for general situations in missons and as for the upgrade tree. I don't want to showcase my endurance by playing the game for 7 hours with full focus. That's my take, at least.
Just make people show their system clock before runs start and have the run streamed?
I will always believe that you won't cheat, as a group competitive thing, I don't even think drg supports it
Drg is supposed to be played in a certain phase to be efficient in modded difficulties. You HAVE to be efficient, but theres no speedrunning involved on any level. But hell yeah this guy is a haz 5 ”speedrunner” Makes 0 sense to me. Also, in a game with randomly generated maps? Bro
Nah that’s cap, most of the modded gameplay you can find is people sitting in bunkers or tunnels to fight swarms and then just waddling forward once everything is dead. The balance of objectives and combat in the base game is pretty good, almost never have to drop everything and fight vs modded where the entire point (that I can see) is to make the combat significantly more time consuming and prominent.
You can be super inefficient and still win modded hazards just like you can with 5, however you cannot be as fast on modded difficulties as you can with 5, the combat pressure will slow you down at least a little. I’m sure some people are fast and efficient in modded but they’re going to be slowed down by modded difficulty vs how fast they could go in vanilla.
This isn’t really a “modded vs everybody” argument, but seems like you got that chip on ya. Im never gonna play modded predominantly man it’s not gonna happen
Off topic here, I do wish we had the option to purchase support items in missions, like having a Bet-C being deployed with the dwarvs at the cost of like 25-50k creds, or having us be able to buy a Jetty Boot box, or even have a little mini mule that holds enough nitra for one supply pod.
Also seeing speed runs of drg would be neat to watch, honestly id say make double xp banned and call it even tbh.