Paul, Great summary on the difference between MM and MC cartridges. Your explanation of using step up transformers (SUT) to get ~30x the gain is spot on. Thank you! I use a pair of Triad JO-3 SUTs between my Ortofon LYS MC and my moving magnet phono stage with very good results, but these SUTs are susceptible to stray magnetic fields from proximity to power supplies and motors in the form of audible hum. I added cylindrical permalloy shields over the SUTs and moved them as far away from the field sources as possible, which reduced the hum by ~12 dB. This seems to be the only major drawback to using MC cartridges.
It depends very much on the transformer and phono stage. My experience is opposite. A good high end step up transformers are always better. The only good MC phono stage I’ve used was rare and expensive John Curl’s Vendetta. In my opinion less active devices in signal path always gives out better sound.
@@stanislavshokurov6532 Agreed. The step up I used was made by Ortofon - not sure how "High end" this was, but I replaced it with a Dynavector P75 Mk1 which I'm still happily using.
At the end of the day there probably isn't all that much difference between either cartridge once you bung the signal through a step up transformer or put a higher gain phono stage with its inherent noise figures ( only a very high end phono stage justifies this )
For the best audio, yes, a carefully designed MC phono preamp is better. A transformer in the audio signal path is sort of much worse than cheap capacitors or other evil components we prefer to be without.
Just got a denon ha500, if you have a good rig, sut's the way😀. It will amplifie, Even your bad records and you will find them☹️ thats prob the downside with it, if you can call it that.
I have watched a few videos and love how simple they are to understand. That is thanks to the author for in depth knowledge made simple, for simple people like me.lol
Years ago I built a LaPacifica phono preamp from a kit I bought for $60 or so, I added my own outboard AC wallwart, low noise power supply and a case. This is a very simple circuit using a couple of jFets and a passive frequency shaping ckt using oil filled caps and RN60 resistors for each channel. Because i was using a moving coil cartridge I needed more gain, for another $30 I bought another gain stage with a single JFet per channel\ and a small ckt board for all of it. In the end this cost me about $125 all in. Is this as good as a top notch phono stage, no but it also only costs 5% as much.
*sigh* I miss living somewhere where the sun is not as harsh where Iam now my Hifi needs a range of climatic controls to maintain it and no direct UV but looking at that spindle of CDS on the window sill OH DEAR they would be faded in a week here. I never had the issue down south where I grew up but here we are. great vid always MC Is an area i just dont know if I will make the jump or not I went with the Clear Audio Maestro V2 and for a MM its the best i can justify but thats just me. Amp has the switches for MC so maybe ONE DAY lol
Excellent explanation of the entire subject. But I have to agree with the person who said using a cartridge that costs way more than your amp does not make much sense.
Which reminds me of a previous video about how to turn an asymmetric signal symmetric. You could use that step up transformer for it. In this case you would have to put the transformer very close to the Sprout and have a symmetric output on your turn table.
I don't think you'd want to use a stepup transformer for balancing a single ended signal... better to use 1:1 isolation transformer. Btw, cartridges already are balanced due to their electric principle, but almost all phono preamps short the negative (-) from the left and right coils to ground.
The transformer not only increase the signal output but also matches the impedance which could be as low as 5 ohms. You could add an active part instead such as a low noise op-amp in place of the transformer instead which is a much cheaper solution but has other issues to deal with, such as induced hum from power supplies and the like but could work much better than the transformer if it is manufatured by non reputable or dubious manufacture and can band limit the music or introduce peaks and dips in the response.
If you look at how information on an lp disc is stored then a lot of passes to other things are dampened to make room for long playing time with music. To get flat / normal frequency then you need to have a riaa amplifier which in a way is an EQ. You need one that is made for moving coil or moving magnet!
Yeah, the upgrade process is weird and usually nonlinear. There are modestly priced electronics that sound quite good (and some that sound like crap, of course; I haven't heard either the Ortofon 2M Black or the Sprout, so I have no opinion). Not that many people can afford a multiple component upgrade all at once. If Don in IN feels that his MM cartridge is the current weak link in his system and he can afford the upgrade to a better MC cartridge and transformer now, why not? He can upgrade to a better amp (or turntable/tonearm or speakers) later when the money is there if he feels the need/want.
Maybe the cartridge was won at a radio contest - like I won a 500 $ Monster Cable interconnect back in 1995 while my existing system at the time costs 600 $.
What you all do for turntables and albums......some of this stuff is like slapping a Indy car motor in a stock Ford Model T. It could do a 100mph if the 1910's tires don't blow apart and the wood rims don't disintegrate. In the mean time I pull up in my SACD Lotus that can bring the milk home from the store at 150mph....
Step up transformers are probably not a good fit for MI (moving iron) cartridges. I talked to Bob Satin of Bob's Devices about this a number of years ago. He said it would not be a good fit. He was right. I experimented with a Soundsmith cartridge; it amplified the sound, but the quality was lost.
It's a bit of a stretch to categorically call MC way better than MM. That is more of a personal opinion than anything else. It is very hotly disputed in HIFI circles, and it is situational. I have no problem people say or think MC is better, but man, tone it down. It is probably more correct to say the most expensive cartridge is, usually, the best. Given everything in the audio chain is a good fit that is.
i got to thinking this may be why the really cheap turntables like the crosley cruiser and such sound so bad is because they use a small audio transformer to replace the pre amp stage so they can get signal into the speaker amp without having to use a pre amp. in addition they are not applying the riaa curve . i am sure if you wired an audio matching transformer from the stylus to the line in on your sound system you could get a signal and basically that maybe what the cheap turntables are doing. of course you got copper windings in the transformer that add cost however they could use aluminum windings and make it cheaper.
No, the main reason for Crosley and similar players sounding so awful is small, crummy speakers driven by inadequate amplifiers. The only transformer in such a unit is for power. These cheapo things don't have magnetic cartridges; they have ceramics --- but don't dismiss a ceramic just because it is one! Even the all-plastic stylus used in many of them isn't as bad as one might expect. In case you want to find out for yourself just how much is missing due to the deficiencies of the rest of the thing, try connecting only the turntable in one of them to a good system. Use a line-level input (CD, Aux, etc.), Not a phono input. Play a clean but unimportant copy of a familiar recording. The difference between that and using the entire unit will be pleasantly striking.
I need to choose between two preprocessors, a Marantz AV7705 ($1900 my cost) or a Yamaha CV-A5200 ($2200 my cost). The preprocessor would be driving 3, Crown XLS 2502 amplifiers. Although this equipment is intended for my home theater system, musical performance is a high priority to me. Which preprocessor would you choose? I am long time subscriber and value your opinion :) Thank you for your assistance.
Dad, what is a moving coil step-up transformer? Son, when I was your age we used those for...well, Paul makes retro audiophile solutions, like using a transformer as voltage amplifier, great again.
The only reason stepups are that expensive, is because the manufacturer knows how much it would cost the consumer to change to MC by buying a full MC phono preamp. The manufacturers of stepups try to stay slightly below those upgrade costs.
I have to question MCs now - I have gone around the loop buying mindgurrglingly expensive MCs, TT's arms and phono stages - and gone back to MM due to the trade offs of noise against signal ... so now. does my Koetsu black nailed to a Ittok arm - bolted to a Linn Sondek LP12 sound better than my Systemdek II, Logic Datum, Nagoaka Boron Mp11 ? ... not really. ...how much of this is engineering trade offs plus "psycho acoustics" added to pissing contest? ...I've learned my lesson ... I'll save my money now and use it elsewhere... go MM .
It's not that simple, Paul likes to simplify things too much; the impedance of MC carts is also different. Because of the isolation of the stepup transformer, that impedance mismatch gets decoupled from the gain stage.
PS Audio community:. Any recommendations for a good inexpensive SUT? I run MM, would love to experiment with MC but price of new MC cart + SUT is prohibitive. I can afford a nice new MC cart + inexpensive SUT but can't afford new expensive cart + new expensive SUT. I have a really nice MM tube phono pre that sounds great and cost quite a bit so don't want to get a new pre that will accommodate MM and MC. New MC cart and cheap SUT would be ideal but all the SUTs I see are above 500$. Are there decent cheaper products out there?
Remember the "weakest link" theory? You spend a lot more for a mc cartridge and pair it with a cheap SUT or cheap mc phono stage, and it will only sound as good as the cheap SUT or phono stage. A good, higher-end mm cartridge will usually out perform a cheap mc cartridge and can be used with your existing mm phono stage. Look for one with a line-contact or shibata stylus and a more exotic cantilever, made from boron, ruby, sapphire, etc. There is no free lunch!
@@markwagner1997 no free lunch for certain! Your response confirmed my impression. Hoping somebody would tell me there is this guy in his basement making SUTs that are the deal of the century! Until then, yup my MM setup sounds pretty nice! Have a Nagaoka MP500 thèse days that sounds really sweet and I love my tube pre. Grass is always greener though....
@@billbones1000 If you are willing to buy used, there are many inexpensive transformers out there. Recall that transformers, being passive devices, don't really wear out, so an SUT from the 70's is likely to perform just the same today as it did back then. But, there is a catch: transformers should be purchased based on the specifications of the cartridge they are used with. You need to take into consideration the load resistance "seen" by the cartridge through the SUT as well as the voltage gain required based on the output of the cartridge.
What is Pauls take on the brand Mordaunt Short? I've got a couple of small speakers of that brand and they sound realy good! Btw I've got turntables with a preamp build in and that's far better than an external amp because you get less noise from the cables this way.
With small signals (and that is what they are) a transformer works linear and is amplifying the signal amplitude in proportion to the number of windings from the primary coil to the secondary coil. So there will be no distortion.
SUTs distort in a different way than do active gain stages. The harmonic distortion in transformers is highest at low frequencies but drops to very low levels at higher frequencies. Transistors do the opposite and usually exhibit higher distortion at higher frequencies. That said, IM distortion in a transformer is negligible compared to transistor amps. This is why SUTs generally sound cleaner when compared to headamps. But a good headamp can amplify and correctly load almost any cartridge, whereas an SUT much be chosen based on the voltage gain and impedance requirements of the cartridge.
What a nice guy. His explanations are so simple and his advice is so helpful. Bravo!
Going from MM to MC makes a difference, but way more important is the stylus shape.
Paul,
Great summary on the difference between MM and MC cartridges. Your explanation of using step up transformers (SUT) to get ~30x the gain is spot on. Thank you!
I use a pair of Triad JO-3 SUTs between my Ortofon LYS MC and my moving magnet phono stage with very good results, but these SUTs are susceptible to stray magnetic fields from proximity to power supplies and motors in the form of audible hum.
I added cylindrical permalloy shields over the SUTs and moved them as far away from the field sources as possible, which reduced the hum by ~12 dB. This seems to be the only major drawback to using MC cartridges.
Thank you. Now I understand what a step-up transformer is.
In my experience the step transformer will do the job but a dedicated MC phono preamp will sound better.
It depends very much on the transformer and phono stage. My experience is opposite. A good high end step up transformers are always better. The only good MC phono stage I’ve used was rare and expensive John Curl’s Vendetta. In my opinion less active devices in signal path always gives out better sound.
@@stanislavshokurov6532 Agreed. The step up I used was made by Ortofon - not sure how "High end" this was, but I replaced it with a Dynavector P75 Mk1 which I'm still happily using.
At the end of the day there probably isn't all that much difference between either cartridge once you bung the signal through a step up transformer or put a higher gain phono stage with its inherent noise figures ( only a very high end phono stage justifies this )
For the best audio, yes, a carefully designed MC phono preamp is better. A transformer in the audio signal path is sort of much worse than cheap capacitors or other evil components we prefer to be without.
Very clear explanation - would have great to touch the topic of how various SUT affect the sound quality
Just got a denon ha500, if you have a good rig, sut's the way😀. It will amplifie, Even your bad records and you will find them☹️ thats prob the downside with it, if you can call it that.
I have watched a few videos and love how simple they are to understand. That is thanks to the author for in depth knowledge made simple, for simple people like me.lol
I have a pair of Sony HA T10 mini step up transformers and with the Audio Technica AT30HE coil cartridge, it is like discovering music all over again.
Paul is great and always tell the truth about the secrets of Hi Fi
Not always. He is pretty good about it, though.
I used a step-up with my mm phono stage and it sounded great. I used a Denon step-up transformer.
Years ago I built a LaPacifica phono preamp from a kit I bought for $60 or so, I added my own outboard AC wallwart, low noise power supply and a case. This is a very simple circuit using a couple of jFets and a passive frequency shaping ckt using oil filled caps and RN60 resistors for each channel. Because i was using a moving coil cartridge I needed more gain, for another $30 I bought another gain stage with a single JFet per channel\ and a small ckt board for all of it. In the end this cost me about $125 all in.
Is this as good as a top notch phono stage, no but it also only costs 5% as much.
*sigh* I miss living somewhere where the sun is not as harsh where Iam now my Hifi needs a range of climatic controls to maintain it and no direct UV but looking at that spindle of CDS on the window sill OH DEAR they would be faded in a week here. I never had the issue down south where I grew up but here we are. great vid always MC Is an area i just dont know if I will make the jump or not I went with the Clear Audio Maestro V2 and for a MM its the best i can justify but thats just me. Amp has the switches for MC so maybe ONE DAY lol
Excellent explanation of the entire subject. But I have to agree with the person who said using a cartridge that costs way more than your amp does not make much sense.
Which reminds me of a previous video about how to turn an asymmetric signal symmetric. You could use that step up transformer for it. In this case you would have to put the transformer very close to the Sprout and have a symmetric output on your turn table.
I don't think you'd want to use a stepup transformer for balancing a single ended signal... better to use 1:1 isolation transformer.
Btw, cartridges already are balanced due to their electric principle, but almost all phono preamps short the negative (-) from the left and right coils to ground.
The transformer not only increase the signal output but also matches the impedance which could be as low as 5 ohms. You could add an active part instead such as a low noise op-amp in place of the transformer instead which is a much cheaper solution but has other issues to deal with, such as induced hum from power supplies and the like but could work much better than the transformer if it is manufatured by non reputable or dubious manufacture and can band limit the music or introduce peaks and dips in the response.
Great explanation!
If you look at how information on an lp disc is stored then a lot of passes to other things are dampened to make room for long playing time with music. To get flat / normal frequency then you need to have a riaa amplifier which in a way is an EQ. You need one that is made for moving coil or moving magnet!
Try not to change a good MM for a regular MC.
It takes more than just a step-up transformer to go from MM to MC. You can get away with it but the overall gain and fidelity will suffer.
Using a cartridge that costs more than the amp? Seems like a weird combination.
Yeah, the upgrade process is weird and usually nonlinear. There are modestly priced electronics that sound quite good (and some that sound like crap, of course; I haven't heard either the Ortofon 2M Black or the Sprout, so I have no opinion). Not that many people can afford a multiple component upgrade all at once. If Don in IN feels that his MM cartridge is the current weak link in his system and he can afford the upgrade to a better MC cartridge and transformer now, why not? He can upgrade to a better amp (or turntable/tonearm or speakers) later when the money is there if he feels the need/want.
Maybe the cartridge was won at a radio contest - like I won a 500 $ Monster Cable interconnect back in 1995 while my existing system at the time costs 600 $.
It's quite common that the phono preamp is overlooked.
Most of the times, it's by far the weakest link in the system.
And that's how Naufrélange Audio was born...
What you all do for turntables and albums......some of this stuff is like slapping a Indy car motor in a stock Ford Model T. It could do a 100mph if the 1910's tires don't blow apart and the wood rims don't disintegrate. In the mean time I pull up in my SACD Lotus that can bring the milk home from the store at 150mph....
What's an SACD Lotus? Is it edible?
Sounds delicious! 👌
But wouldn’t an outboard mc phono amp (plugged into the line in) sound better?
Possibly. Depends on the quality of the MC Phono amp.
Usually yes in most cases. There are many different qualities of riaa amplifiers. cheap and not so good and expensive and good.
Step up transformers are probably not a good fit for MI (moving iron) cartridges. I talked to Bob Satin of Bob's Devices about this a number of years ago. He said it would not be a good fit. He was right. I experimented with a Soundsmith cartridge; it amplified the sound, but the quality was lost.
It's a bit of a stretch to categorically call MC way better than MM. That is more of a personal opinion than anything else. It is very hotly disputed in HIFI circles, and it is situational. I have no problem people say or think MC is better, but man, tone it down. It is probably more correct to say the most expensive cartridge is, usually, the best. Given everything in the audio chain is a good fit that is.
i got to thinking this may be why the really cheap turntables like the crosley cruiser and such sound so bad is because they use a small audio transformer to replace the pre amp stage so they can get signal into the speaker amp without having to use a pre amp.
in addition they are not applying the riaa curve .
i am sure if you wired an audio matching transformer from the stylus to the line in on your sound system you could get a signal and basically that maybe what the cheap turntables are doing.
of course you got copper windings in the transformer that add cost however they could use aluminum windings and make it cheaper.
No, the main reason for Crosley and similar players sounding so awful
is small, crummy speakers driven by inadequate amplifiers.
The only transformer in such a unit is for power.
These cheapo things don't have magnetic cartridges; they have ceramics ---
but don't dismiss a ceramic just because it is one!
Even the all-plastic stylus used in many of them isn't as bad as one might expect.
In case you want to find out for yourself just how much is missing due to the deficiencies of the rest of the thing,
try connecting only the turntable in one of them to a good system.
Use a line-level input (CD, Aux, etc.), Not a phono input.
Play a clean but unimportant copy of a familiar recording.
The difference between that and using the entire unit will be pleasantly striking.
@@spacemissing that too
I have mc only phono stage. Can I use mc step up transformer in reverse mode to use MM cartridge?
I need to choose between two preprocessors, a Marantz AV7705 ($1900 my cost) or a Yamaha CV-A5200 ($2200 my cost). The preprocessor would be driving 3, Crown XLS 2502 amplifiers. Although this equipment is intended for my home theater system, musical performance is a high priority to me. Which preprocessor would you choose? I am long time subscriber and value your opinion :) Thank you for your assistance.
So best idea
Dad, what is a moving coil step-up transformer? Son, when I was your age we used those for...well, Paul makes retro audiophile solutions, like using a transformer as voltage amplifier, great again.
Good step ups are not cheap. What is the logic of not buying a mc preamp for the money? Or is a good mc preamp of equiv. quality much more expensive?
The only reason stepups are that expensive, is because the manufacturer knows how much it would cost the consumer to change to MC by buying a full MC phono preamp.
The manufacturers of stepups try to stay slightly below those upgrade costs.
Or you could buy an MC 3 turbo cartridge and use it with your current preamp.
I have to question MCs now - I have gone around the loop buying mindgurrglingly expensive MCs, TT's arms and phono stages - and gone back to MM due to the trade offs of noise against signal ... so now. does my Koetsu black nailed to a Ittok arm - bolted to a Linn Sondek LP12 sound better than my Systemdek II, Logic Datum, Nagoaka Boron Mp11 ? ... not really. ...how much of this is engineering trade offs plus "psycho acoustics" added to pissing contest? ...I've learned my lesson ... I'll save my money now and use it elsewhere... go MM .
Add another opamp for gain stage.
It's not that simple, Paul likes to simplify things too much; the impedance of MC carts is also different.
Because of the isolation of the stepup transformer, that impedance mismatch gets decoupled from the gain stage.
PS Audio community:. Any recommendations for a good inexpensive SUT? I run MM, would love to experiment with MC but price of new MC cart + SUT is prohibitive. I can afford a nice new MC cart + inexpensive SUT but can't afford new expensive cart + new expensive SUT. I have a really nice MM tube phono pre that sounds great and cost quite a bit so don't want to get a new pre that will accommodate MM and MC. New MC cart and cheap SUT would be ideal but all the SUTs I see are above 500$. Are there decent cheaper products out there?
Remember the "weakest link" theory?
You spend a lot more for a mc cartridge and pair it with a cheap SUT or cheap mc phono stage, and it will only sound as good as the cheap SUT or phono stage.
A good, higher-end mm cartridge will usually out perform a cheap mc cartridge and can be used with your existing mm phono stage. Look for one with a line-contact or shibata stylus and a more exotic cantilever, made from boron, ruby, sapphire, etc.
There is no free lunch!
@@markwagner1997 no free lunch for certain! Your response confirmed my impression. Hoping somebody would tell me there is this guy in his basement making SUTs that are the deal of the century! Until then, yup my MM setup sounds pretty nice! Have a Nagaoka MP500 thèse days that sounds really sweet and I love my tube pre. Grass is always greener though....
@@billbones1000 If you are willing to buy used, there are many inexpensive transformers out there. Recall that transformers, being passive devices, don't really wear out, so an SUT from the 70's is likely to perform just the same today as it did back then. But, there is a catch: transformers should be purchased based on the specifications of the cartridge they are used with. You need to take into consideration the load resistance "seen" by the cartridge through the SUT as well as the voltage gain required based on the output of the cartridge.
What is Pauls take on the brand Mordaunt Short? I've got a couple of small speakers of that brand and they sound realy good! Btw I've got turntables with a preamp build in and that's far better than an external amp because you get less noise from the cables this way.
i would Never use a preamp built into a turntable.
None of them are good enough, and cables don't cause That much trouble.
@@spacemissing Mine do have great preamps!
#1 Fan
@Fat Rat late to the party man 🥳🎉 lol
@Fat Rat I got satellites all over this meager star system. Only came to this galaxy to study paul. 🤫
@Fat Rat yeah it's a pretty chill gig
How about the distortion from the step-up transformer?
With small signals (and that is what they are) a transformer works linear and is amplifying the signal amplitude in proportion to the number of windings from the primary coil to the secondary coil. So there will be no distortion.
SUTs distort in a different way than do active gain stages. The harmonic distortion in transformers is highest at low frequencies but drops to very low levels at higher frequencies. Transistors do the opposite and usually exhibit higher distortion at higher frequencies. That said, IM distortion in a transformer is negligible compared to transistor amps. This is why SUTs generally sound cleaner when compared to headamps. But a good headamp can amplify and correctly load almost any cartridge, whereas an SUT much be chosen based on the voltage gain and impedance requirements of the cartridge.
Your in boulder....... im in parker, i want to visit you guys, pleaseet me know if you can make this happen
Once we can all get vaccinated, yes!
Don't rely on a vaccine to protect you from COVID-19.
Just DON'T.
@@spacemissing the vaccine is the actual virus together with the media.
MC superiority is just propaganda.
I totally agree!
Not propaganda, but every cartridge should be judged on individual performance. I've had success with both mm & mc.
Maybe not completely, but it is often exaggerated. It takes a lot of money to make an MC setup sound better than (or even a good) as a good MM setup.
Paul awesome as usual. Something has been troubling me. How can one have multiples less? What is 30x less? How is it expressed mathematically?
...easy: signal times 1 divided by 30, as 1/30 of the signal. Cheers!