Oooooo can't wait for that. Fkn epic the master bigham.. Hope you do more with the Nero show bruv love watching you lot can't forget about the beanie olso ❤
I follow both Dylan and you having first started with Dylan. While I am a simple, recreational rider I am a nerdy professional engineer that appreciates and learns from your videos.
I love there's this community of independent cycling content creators all crossing over. It's where I see the future of 'media' going. PT, Dylan, Hambini, Chris Miller, Joe, Jefff... and more all bouncing off one another just creates so much value beyond traditional media channels.
@@PeakTorque Interesting - I believe think that if they'd work out their niches, more of them could do quite well... eg Conner (and Si) has a nice USP with me, because I can relate to some of his videos quite well for also having two kids and therefore little time on the bike...
Si Richardson is also an extremely talented presenter. Not just about bikes either. He'd be great on Top Gear or a host of other shows. One thing to bear in mind though is that GCNs scripting, camerawork and editing is very slick. That's a tough nut to crack for anyone going solo.
In the Rubaix before each cobble section is a race for position. It often drives up speeds towards the end of the tarmac sections. I’m not sure how that fits into the tire selection, but acceleration and speed for those battles must be considered.
Whoaaa. PT you confirmed something I felt on the bike for years. I don't know jacksh!t about engineering or physics or whatever so obviously never could explain it myself. But what I feel on this specific climb I ride every single day, there's a tiny section that is the smoothest asphalt ever. Rest of the climb is horrifyingly bad. When I come off the bad section and onto the smooth asphalt, even at same exact watt I feel like I got 20kg's lighter or that I'm not working nearly as hard. The effort feels wayyy less grueling. I never thought it would be all that dampening your body has to use energy to absorb. Good stuff.
@@PeakTorque No but srsly, I quite enjoy listening to podcasts with a solitary earbud while on rides, and although I could do youtube on my phone in my jersey pocket, it absolutely rinses the battery compared to the podcast app. If you would consider setting I’m some sort of cross-post to a podcast publishing platform, I’d be an enthusiastic subscriber.
I like and subscribe to both your channels, having found Dylan’s first, years ago. I’m a former shop mechanic, mtb racer and all that, then converted to drop bars almost 20 years ago, bizarrely winding up as a ‘gravel specialist’ before that was a thing. Now I’m all about optimizing for full and multi-day stuff on all the bikes and all the big tires. Aero all day is often my jam, so o really vibed o. The last big of this convo. Thanks gents!
I switched my gravel bike from SRAM 1x to GRX 2x for this upcoming season. My goal races are a lot of steep Pennsylvania gravel and I spent a lot of time in my lowest gears. I'm looking forward to seeing what difference it makes.
I’m on east coast USA, road is dying around me. Races are harder to get officials for, they are all tied up at all day gravel races. So a quick time trial, no chance. Actual road races are almost dead, road closures are a nightmare and the costs for police escorts at intersections has gone up. Crits are around but also, same issue, officials are tough to get. And if you get one crash that taints an event, forget it, canceled forever. Cross is dying worse, no officials and it’s “too hard” from what I’ve gotten from gravel converts. I get it. Resources are a thing. It just stinks.
Yep….15-25 years ago, I could race any weekend I wanted to here in New England. Now, none of the road races I used to do every season back then exist anymore…and quite a few of them were long-standing, big races! I’ve also seen CX in the last 15 years explode in popularity only to crash a few years later…fields that once had 80+ riders now have 15 (and that is in New England, one of the traditional bastions of CX in the states). It seems like most people want to avoid the intense competitiveness of racing these days…they all want the laid back, party-at-the-finish atmosphere of non-competitive gravel rides…much to the chagrin of those of us who loved to race.
Loved this. 66 yo recreational rider but have always been a tech nerd. This was the best podcast, Awesome job. Listened start to finish, and with my ADD re 99% of TH-cam videos’ that says something (at least to me! )
The thing to consider with Roubaix, is that when you are in even a small group, the aero penalty is negated partially because of drafting. Something like a suspension fork might be too much aero penalty, but I think the wheel width aero is negated by the fact that you spend VERY little time out in front exposed to the wind.
I would say that of all the pro races in the calendar, Roubaix is the one that each individual rider does the least amount of drafting and spends the most time with their nose in the wind. You never see a big bunch much; most of the time in the last half of the race it’s total carnage; the peloton is shot to pieces and it’s each man for himself with the whole fields strung out over many kms in groups of ones, twos or threes.
I’ve followed both of you for a while. Long time recreational cyclist and always said I wasn’t that interested in racing, but that changed and I found Dylan’s videos by searching for something like “how do I increase my ftp” 😂 TH-cam kept recommending peak torque videos to me and after a while I gave in and clicked on one 😮
I've watched both of you for so long that I don't remember who was first. I recall Dylan having only around 10k subscribers when I first stumbled upon his channel.
How about aero penalty with wider tires and rims which are aero optimised for 25mm (dt arc 1100 for example). Is, let's say 30mm tire, which clearly is creating the light bulb effect (even 28mm is slightly giving that) really a better choice for road ?
Tour Mag tested it recently, 28 vs 30, 32, 34, 38 Scwalbe Pro Ones, on DT Swiss wheels. It was only +1 watt penalty with a bigger size. In a fast aero gravel frame, (Ridley) 212 watts with 28mm, and 218 watts with 38mm tyre, at 45 kph. Conclusion was, wider is better, they recommended 32 or even 34 if fits on any roadbike. Aero penalty is much smaller, what they thought before.
@@Gianniz27thanks. Found this article. Its a shame they haven't check the 25mm which dt says is the best aero choice for that specific rim, but I guess the difference shouldnt be that much
It's going to be a Stigmata. I know it's not really a race bike (well, I guess depending on the course), but I'd like to have the one with the suspension fork for the Miles of lousy washboard gravel where I live. Enjoyed the discussion, thanks.
Been watching both of your for a couple years. The different focus is great - no need to change anything there - I look forward to new videos from both. The sports science stuff is great and the engineering stuff is great (though typically more expensive... ;) ).
Massive thanks to you guys for this discussion. You stand out with your knowledge and experience and ability to explain it. Cycling needs more of this and the brands who actually try to make really better products deserve more of this instead of the ocean of blablabla we're flooded with.
Both channels fan here. I think I found Peak Torque first, with he and his Hambini crew of puttin it to em with the tech/physics answers. Then I wanted to know training things to get ME faster and found Dylan. Rounded out knowledge is important and I enjoy the two of you collaborating.
I've been a big fan of Dylan's content for years (since before I started cycling actually). Then became a PT fan after getting into the sport and wanting to be better informed about my bike setup.
The lifetime Grand Prix was initiated by one company called LifeTime fitness as a Marketing tool for their brand of course now there are additional sponsors involved but that’s where the name came from I don’t think you guys said that basic fact or maybe it’s not necessary anyway thanks for the informative Video
I too follow Dylan's channel and i honestly can't remember if i started following you or him first. while you guys talk about different aspects of cycling, you're both go very deep and nerdy with it, and with a good sense of humor to boot. I'm no engineer nor athlete, i just enjoy learning and hearing your opinions, and applying the ideas to my own riding to see what happens.
I found Peak Torque first, mainly because there has been so much questionable bike gear out there. I’m a relative Luddite regarding bike tech, I learned how to downhill mtb on rim brakes, and I just made the best of it and got pretty good at it. While disk brakes on mountain bikes made sense, I still haven’t bought a road bike with disk brakes. I also haven’t bought any carbon wheels sets, but when I was curious about carbon wheels and rim brakes I found Peak Torque. BTW, I still prefer tubular road bike tires. I found Dylan when searching for race diaries on Unbound 2023. It’s an event I plan to do at least once, and each year has different challenges and different perspectives on how to deal with them. Dylan’s nutrition segments kept me watching his channel. I’m celiac and nutrition is just generally a challenge on the bike.
Considering everything you have said about Paris-Roubaix -- would the most operationally possible thing to do in 2024 be simply to run the widest internal rim and tire combination that you can shove into the current world tour race bikes? Like, can they get a 35/36mm tire with a rim liner into the latest bikes? What did MvdP and WvA run last year? 30mm?
i went the fat tire route on the road, but also coming at it as a recumbent cyclist. That gives me two points of interest; 1) I don't mind doing things different, and 2) I kinda need the tire volume to handle the bumps since I can't stand up. Currently running Rene Herse slicks at 44mm size and loving it.
Riding on terrain that is battering your body has a huge toll on your energy over the course of a race, I also feel like wider tires would be faster... but what the do I know. I have a lot of respect for Dylan, I really want to see him win one of the big races, but I follow him because of how much he geeks out about everything and enjoys what he does.
Since it seems that larger and larger tire volumes are faster. Do you think there would ever be a point where it would be beneficial to use a 650b wheel with mtb tires to get the added tire volume while minimizing frontal area? 65bx2.1 is something like a 700cX40mm. since we arent hitting large objects while gravel cylcing I dont think approach angle is really much of an issue.
A big factor in USA is where do you practice road cycling *safely*, every road there is dangerous thanks to the car-culture. Gravel instead is safer in that sense.
I rode the PR challenge once with a Gravel bike (bikepacking type) on 38 mm tires and the following year with my road bike on 28/30 mm. Overall I was 40 min faster with the road bike but on nearly all cobbled sectors I was significantly faster with the gravel bike. Always gives me a hard time deciding which bike to use since then.
I follow both of you and I think I found you first (via Hambini), a few years ago. I am a fast recreational rider / novice racer and only more recently became interested in training and DJ's content.
I've heard some commentators say that the current improvements in bikes have already changed the tactics of Paris-Roubaix in that only a few of the cobbled sections are now tactically decisive.
Basically ruining the whole point of doing the cobbles. And then the following logic is...well why even bother with the classics. If you make them too easy the whole point of what makes them special disappears. And then they to will. Go do gravel if you want 45mm tires and suspension
I believe I started watching peak torque first around 2years ago and started watching Dylan around a couple months after that. I thoroughly enjoy this kind of conversation and especially this podcast episode.
If the fork makes a difference in aero, what’s the potential of making improvements to the existing bike by installing a 3D-printed clip of fork extension?
Lifetime has figured out, that if they open their events, (especially in gravel) to the general public, it is incredibly profitable, this is why gravel has grown in popularity in the U.S. The. Bike industry likes to sponsoring gravel pros, it’s cheap marketing for a minimal cost versus sponsoring a team or teams.
I watch everything by both of you! Though, I found Dillon first with his amazing training videos. For an easy to follow but deep dive into engineering PeakTorque cant be beat. I see you as the same. I am the guy who goes OCD on optimizing for the fun of it. I just like optimizing, tweaking and doing research. I don't race so how fast is irrelevant but yet it gives me a thrill to have a custom bike that is optimized for me and unique.
In terms of stuff to carry for flat tires. I would recommend cutting up an old MTB tires and having some make shift patches for the inside of a ripped tire.
Awesome chat! I reckon the crossover must be : nerdy guys who ride a bike and want to do less effort than less nerdy guys, no matter the level. Also, funny hearing DJ talking about talent xD
I don't think that the 40mm or so tire road bike that dylan is thiking about would be optimal for Paris-Roubaix, too much aero penalty and to actually be somwhat effective it would need a system to change the tire pressure while riding. I think that someting like the Pinarell Dogma FS form 2019 with the HiRide electronic suspension system would be the best option, maybe with 30mm tires or something like that. What do you think?
These systems exist and were used last year by DSM and Jumbo to some extent. There's still 200km of non cobbles at roubaix where a 40mm tire is a big disadvantage.
I follow Hambini first then Dylan and you after Hambini mentioned you in a TH-cam video. You and Dylan have excellent quality content that is useful and enlightening
I watch both of you guys. And inspired by both, just bagged a Cannondale Slate for hooning around. UK roads are getting so bad, the lightweight 'racer' is only good at the local Crit circuit....
What would be interesting is to set up an alternative race series with no limitations and see what comes out of the woodwork, faired recumbent bikes on MTB tires 🤷
Mr Torque, I found Dylan’s TH-cam channel first. I am an amateur cyclocross rider currently watching you from a static turbo. (Hope that’s useful to you)
I would say there is a lot of crossover! Or at least, there should be.. Because for someone who "understands" the cycling world and truly rides a bike what both of have to say is extremely valuable. I subscribe both your channels...
I'm a remote software developer, but I used to work on very engineering oriented teams (EE rather than ME, though). I come here because I live in a rural area now and nobody I know talks about technical stuff. I'll be honest, I understand maybe 25% of what you're talking about, but I just miss that technical banter. I watch Dylan because I am actually a sports science nerd. I don't do it much any more, but in my youth I would read papers all the time as a weird kind of hobby. I never actually did anything with the information, I just thought it was interesting. Very unfortunately most of the science and statistics is junk, though. I really enjoy statistics (super nerd) so I think half of the fun was poking holes in the papers. Probably started to watch both of you at about the same time. Was super surprised by the cross over, but it was fun! Would watch again.
extremely interesting on 2x vs 1x! I highly recommend the GRX 2x w/ 11-40 XTR cassette for gravel. I've never once dropped the chain on the front. Deeply regret getting an XC bike with SRAM Eagle 1x when XTR 2x is still available. Even at XX1 spec the 1x is shockingly nasty
One big reason for incremental improvements is the way the industry is structured. Frames, wheels and tyres and groupsets all come from different suppliers so no single company could easily build a 65-70 mm tyred gravel bike without significant compromise.
Wouldn’t something like the old cannondale headshox be a better fit? Then you can have more aerodynamic fork legs and most of the exposed round bit is right in front of the down tube anyway? I’m sure you could design a fairly aero shock boot type thing.
Discussions this long really benefit from chapters and bookmarking. I ain't sitting through 75 minutes to find the juicy bits; ain't nobody got time for that.
As a long time Lefty runner there is one issue that I don't see mentioned... and the same goes for suspension on drop bar bikes in general. Yes, one could optimise a bike for the event with your pro mechanics or box fresh sponsored product, it would run amazing - but for the amateur user unless you stick religiously to the (short) 50hr service intervals, you're going to run into big bills quickly. Servicing for these is awkward and stupidly expensive, and every so often you'll need a new lower leg, its cost prohibitive. For drop bar bikes where the user is more likely to be putting in the miles, its barely worth it outside of an event special build. Extreme long service interval suspension would be amazing for drop bar, or evolve the Lauf style.
Dylan first as I was more interested in the training side of riding, and marginal gains. But hell after finding out these gains ain't marginal I dug deeper and found your channel.
I started with Dylan because of his excellent exercise physiology background, but I found peak torque through inadvertently finding a geeky engineering subject.
My daughter introduced me to Dylan's channel, she does miss his whitepaper analysis as they have been really insightful in her cycling and for PE studies.
Hey PT can you comment on frame thickness of the modern times? Frames are so thin now that we must be losing stiffness somewhere. For example, durianrider's claim that the new SL8 is the slowest tarmac ever made
I watch all of Dylan's video's,but I have heard of Peak Torque and watch the odd video from you.However I'll be dipping into youre channel to see do more of your vid's interest me.
yup I also think that both for road and paths, 35mm to 42mm (or even up to 45mm) are the best tyres, and the most good looking ones. I got a Canyon Pathlite 6 (2022 model) and it's a super gorgeous bike, it has 40mm tyres (stock tyres) but once those are worn out my idea is to get the Continental Contact Urban tyres. Great rolling resistance, superb wet grip, you have a lot of widths to choose from (from 28mm to 50mm), it has a good price and puncture protection is good. Road cycling imho, is going to evolve to wider tyres, maybe up to 35mm, 40mm (my fav width) at most.
Had the Conti Contact Urban Speed tires on my commuter, it had terrible grip in the wet and it didnt hold up very long. Tossed the front then after the rear was gone.
@@dakalla sigh byciclesrollingresistance webpage says otherwise. Also I like those tyres design. I really want those or very similar tyres for my Canyon Pathlite 6 (2022 model)
What about skinnier tyres but on wheels with super deep interior channels (ie huge air volume that can run at lower pressures). Also what about mini suspension such as the Lauf CX fork?
Would wind play a part in any watt comparison? Is this ever factored in? Follow.up, i keep hearing at leat for zwift racing people with thr same power output can have different times based on where they put thr power down. Dors this play a part too?
The race could be really interesting if a fraction of the field ran much bigger tires. The teams with skinny tires would have to try to drop the fat tire riders on the flat sections, so one team might start drilling it over 50k/hr from the gun. Team tactics might get really weird
I'm sub'd to both of you! Interestingly, I was at Velofollies bike expo in Kortrijk Belgium this past weekend and got excited when I saw the Factor stand, but got bummed when I didn't see Dylan (or replica) of his dropbar setup. Sad news that he's on the way out, but I agree, all of these gravel bikes should be accepting 700x50. Dylan said they accept 700x50, but what he didn't say is that they could accept bigger. I think if he's want his RaceKings, he's looking for something to clear 29x2.1s. Rodeo Labs maybe? I'm running Raceking 29x2.0s on my Flaanimal5. No issues. Vittoria Mezcals 2.1s fit, but not much clearance. Rim width should be considered.
@PeakTorque For roubaix, a aero version of the lauf fork with a lockable seatpost (suspension dropper post), 35mm rear tyre and 40mm front tyres both slick. Maybe Peak Torque and Hambini should design/build a bike and get Dylan to race it in l’enfer du Nord
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Can you get Backwards Hat Dylan on the next one please
Nah that would not be interesting, instead a sports nutrition podcast and talk about Hyper Beast Mode.
If you enjoyed this, please do like and subscribe. Next up on the Show is Dan Bigham where we pose the similar questions on optimisation.
Oooooo can't wait for that. Fkn epic the master bigham.. Hope you do more with the Nero show bruv love watching you lot can't forget about the beanie olso ❤
Please keep making these long form videos. Fantastic
I follow both this channel and Dylan’s. This was a great conversation! Thank you!
I follow both Dylan and you having first started with Dylan. While I am a simple, recreational rider I am a nerdy professional engineer that appreciates and learns from your videos.
I watch both PeakTorque and DylanJohnson!! Knowlege, nerdiness and not within the mainstream BS.
The mark of a great collab is that it's better than each individually.
Great work guys!
Started watching Dylan about 5 years ago, Peak Torque about 2 years ago. Both are some of the best channels for bicycle nerds. Cheers from Sicily.
I love there's this community of independent cycling content creators all crossing over. It's where I see the future of 'media' going. PT, Dylan, Hambini, Chris Miller, Joe, Jefff... and more all bouncing off one another just creates so much value beyond traditional media channels.
I see gcn going down in the next 5 years with the only potential survivor being Ollie with his own channel
@@PeakTorque, I would subscribe to The Ollie & Hank Cycling Show. Lots of cycling hijinks and innuendo humour would be expected.
@@PeakTorque Interesting - I believe think that if they'd work out their niches, more of them could do quite well... eg Conner (and Si) has a nice USP with me, because I can relate to some of his videos quite well for also having two kids and therefore little time on the bike...
Si Richardson is also an extremely talented presenter. Not just about bikes either. He'd be great on Top Gear or a host of other shows.
One thing to bear in mind though is that GCNs scripting, camerawork and editing is very slick. That's a tough nut to crack for anyone going solo.
In the Rubaix before each cobble section is a race for position. It often drives up speeds towards the end of the tarmac sections. I’m not sure how that fits into the tire selection, but acceleration and speed for those battles must be considered.
long time watcher of both channels...thanks for such a great conversation...
Our pleasure!
Whoaaa. PT you confirmed something I felt on the bike for years. I don't know jacksh!t about engineering or physics or whatever so obviously never could explain it myself. But what I feel on this specific climb I ride every single day, there's a tiny section that is the smoothest asphalt ever. Rest of the climb is horrifyingly bad. When I come off the bad section and onto the smooth asphalt, even at same exact watt I feel like I got 20kg's lighter or that I'm not working nearly as hard. The effort feels wayyy less grueling. I never thought it would be all that dampening your body has to use energy to absorb. Good stuff.
Spot on. There's some sweet tarmac on one of my local climbs that makes it a joy and delight.
I definitely feel a lot lighter on that patch.
punch about time travel was awesome, would be nice if this series was in audio format too
turn off your monitor :D
@breakthrough
@ on a phone bruh
@@PeakTorque No but srsly, I quite enjoy listening to podcasts with a solitary earbud while on rides, and although I could do youtube on my phone in my jersey pocket, it absolutely rinses the battery compared to the podcast app. If you would consider setting I’m some sort of cross-post to a podcast publishing platform, I’d be an enthusiastic subscriber.
I hear the episodes on Spotify, so there is clearly an audio format.
Started on peak torque but found Dylan via the nero show. Got to love the engineering discussions (as a hobby cyclist and engineer).
PeakTorque and Dylan, as a nerdy science and tech minded cyclist, I follow and enjoy both of your channels. Keep it up!
I like and subscribe to both your channels, having found Dylan’s first, years ago. I’m a former shop mechanic, mtb racer and all that, then converted to drop bars almost 20 years ago, bizarrely winding up as a ‘gravel specialist’ before that was a thing. Now I’m all about optimizing for full and multi-day stuff on all the bikes and all the big tires. Aero all day is often my jam, so o really vibed o. The last big of this convo. Thanks gents!
I switched my gravel bike from SRAM 1x to GRX 2x for this upcoming season. My goal races are a lot of steep Pennsylvania gravel and I spent a lot of time in my lowest gears. I'm looking forward to seeing what difference it makes.
fyi you can make an 11-40 cassette work with that if you didn't know that already
Excellent episode. Definitely more of this. I watch both of you but I found Dylan first. You definitely compliment each other well.
I’m on east coast USA, road is dying around me. Races are harder to get officials for, they are all tied up at all day gravel races. So a quick time trial, no chance.
Actual road races are almost dead, road closures are a nightmare and the costs for police escorts at intersections has gone up.
Crits are around but also, same issue, officials are tough to get. And if you get one crash that taints an event, forget it, canceled forever.
Cross is dying worse, no officials and it’s “too hard” from what I’ve gotten from gravel converts.
I get it. Resources are a thing. It just stinks.
"Too hard"?? Is that something you could tell an European road pro?? And look him/her straight in the eyes??? Rgr
Id say xc but its almost impossible to bring roadies in. But in texas xc is doing pretty well so a guy can hope
Yep….15-25 years ago, I could race any weekend I wanted to here in New England. Now, none of the road races I used to do every season back then exist anymore…and quite a few of them were long-standing, big races! I’ve also seen CX in the last 15 years explode in popularity only to crash a few years later…fields that once had 80+ riders now have 15 (and that is in New England, one of the traditional bastions of CX in the states). It seems like most people want to avoid the intense competitiveness of racing these days…they all want the laid back, party-at-the-finish atmosphere of non-competitive gravel rides…much to the chagrin of those of us who loved to race.
Loved this. 66 yo recreational rider but have always been a tech nerd. This was the best podcast, Awesome job. Listened start to finish, and with my ADD re 99% of TH-cam videos’ that says something (at least to me! )
The thing to consider with Roubaix, is that when you are in even a small group, the aero penalty is negated partially because of drafting. Something like a suspension fork might be too much aero penalty, but I think the wheel width aero is negated by the fact that you spend VERY little time out in front exposed to the wind.
It'll be interesting to see if any teams go wider than 32 this year. Why not a gravel race bike with 38 - 40mm slicks on it?
I would say that of all the pro races in the calendar, Roubaix is the one that each individual rider does the least amount of drafting and spends the most time with their nose in the wind. You never see a big bunch much; most of the time in the last half of the race it’s total carnage; the peloton is shot to pieces and it’s each man for himself with the whole fields strung out over many kms in groups of ones, twos or threes.
@@rickmorse3351 Are any gravel frames UCI approved?
I first discovered Dylan, then PT and now I have been following both for a while. Keep up the good work!
This just took youtube cycling videos to the next level. I watch both of you and like the collab
I’ve followed both of you for a while. Long time recreational cyclist and always said I wasn’t that interested in racing, but that changed and I found Dylan’s videos by searching for something like “how do I increase my ftp” 😂 TH-cam kept recommending peak torque videos to me and after a while I gave in and clicked on one 😮
I've watched both of you for so long that I don't remember who was first. I recall Dylan having only around 10k subscribers when I first stumbled upon his channel.
Followed both channels for years, you both bring the same mindset but applied to different areas of cycling. Would love to see a part 2!!!
Great conversation. I like all thing engineering, sports physiology, etc., but it's great to have this niche all about engineering and aero.
How about aero penalty with wider tires and rims which are aero optimised for 25mm (dt arc 1100 for example). Is, let's say 30mm tire, which clearly is creating the light bulb effect (even 28mm is slightly giving that) really a better choice for road ?
Very nice question
Tour Mag tested it recently, 28 vs 30, 32, 34, 38 Scwalbe Pro Ones, on DT Swiss wheels. It was only +1 watt penalty with a bigger size. In a fast aero gravel frame, (Ridley) 212 watts with 28mm, and 218 watts with 38mm tyre, at 45 kph. Conclusion was, wider is better, they recommended 32 or even 34 if fits on any roadbike. Aero penalty is much smaller, what they thought before.
@@Gianniz27thanks. Found this article. Its a shame they haven't check the 25mm which dt says is the best aero choice for that specific rim, but I guess the difference shouldnt be that much
@@mati2396 yes, probably 1-2 watts faster.
wish for many many more episodes and broad popularity to your podcast video format!
It's going to be a Stigmata. I know it's not really a race bike (well, I guess depending on the course), but I'd like to have the one with the suspension fork for the Miles of lousy washboard gravel where I live. Enjoyed the discussion, thanks.
Or Giant Revolt
Been watching both of your for a couple years. The different focus is great - no need to change anything there - I look forward to new videos from both. The sports science stuff is great and the engineering stuff is great (though typically more expensive... ;) ).
Massive thanks to you guys for this discussion. You stand out with your knowledge and experience and ability to explain it.
Cycling needs more of this and the brands who actually try to make really better products deserve more of this instead of the ocean of blablabla we're flooded with.
I've follow both and actually stumbled on to you when cutting my TCR seat mast.
Both channels fan here.
I think I found Peak Torque first, with he and his Hambini crew of puttin it to em with the tech/physics answers.
Then I wanted to know training things to get ME faster and found Dylan.
Rounded out knowledge is important and I enjoy the two of you collaborating.
You guys are onto something. Keep em coming! I am curious what the viewer statistics will be.
I've been a big fan of Dylan's content for years (since before I started cycling actually). Then became a PT fan after getting into the sport and wanting to be better informed about my bike setup.
Great show and colab. Loved the insights and follow the Lifetime grand Prix more thasn any other cycling event/series.
Hi, any chance of a Spotify version please 🙏
Definitely watching both channels for years now!
The lifetime Grand Prix was initiated by one company called LifeTime fitness as a Marketing tool for their brand of course now there are additional sponsors involved but that’s where the name came from I don’t think you guys said that basic fact or maybe it’s not necessary anyway thanks for the informative Video
I too follow Dylan's channel and i honestly can't remember if i started following you or him first. while you guys talk about different aspects of cycling, you're both go very deep and nerdy with it, and with a good sense of humor to boot. I'm no engineer nor athlete, i just enjoy learning and hearing your opinions, and applying the ideas to my own riding to see what happens.
I found Peak Torque first, mainly because there has been so much questionable bike gear out there. I’m a relative Luddite regarding bike tech, I learned how to downhill mtb on rim brakes, and I just made the best of it and got pretty good at it. While disk brakes on mountain bikes made sense, I still haven’t bought a road bike with disk brakes. I also haven’t bought any carbon wheels sets, but when I was curious about carbon wheels and rim brakes I found Peak Torque. BTW, I still prefer tubular road bike tires.
I found Dylan when searching for race diaries on Unbound 2023. It’s an event I plan to do at least once, and each year has different challenges and different perspectives on how to deal with them. Dylan’s nutrition segments kept me watching his channel. I’m celiac and nutrition is just generally a challenge on the bike.
Considering everything you have said about Paris-Roubaix -- would the most operationally possible thing to do in 2024 be simply to run the widest internal rim and tire combination that you can shove into the current world tour race bikes? Like, can they get a 35/36mm tire with a rim liner into the latest bikes? What did MvdP and WvA run last year? 30mm?
i went the fat tire route on the road, but also coming at it as a recumbent cyclist. That gives me two points of interest; 1) I don't mind doing things different, and 2) I kinda need the tire volume to handle the bumps since I can't stand up. Currently running Rene Herse slicks at 44mm size and loving it.
Riding on terrain that is battering your body has a huge toll on your energy over the course of a race, I also feel like wider tires would be faster... but what the do I know. I have a lot of respect for Dylan, I really want to see him win one of the big races, but I follow him because of how much he geeks out about everything and enjoys what he does.
Since it seems that larger and larger tire volumes are faster. Do you think there would ever be a point where it would be beneficial to use a 650b wheel with mtb tires to get the added tire volume while minimizing frontal area? 65bx2.1 is something like a 700cX40mm. since we arent hitting large objects while gravel cylcing I dont think approach angle is really much of an issue.
A big factor in USA is where do you practice road cycling *safely*, every road there is dangerous thanks to the car-culture. Gravel instead is safer in that sense.
I rode the PR challenge once with a Gravel bike (bikepacking type) on 38 mm tires and the following year with my road bike on 28/30 mm. Overall I was 40 min faster with the road bike but on nearly all cobbled sectors I was significantly faster with the gravel bike. Always gives me a hard time deciding which bike to use since then.
I live with the impression racers always want to be faster overall.
I follow both of you and I think I found you first (via Hambini), a few years ago. I am a fast recreational rider / novice racer and only more recently became interested in training and DJ's content.
Great conversation w DJ. Loved all the topics you guys covered. And to answer the question who I found first, I found backward hat Dylan first.
What a perfect podcast, awesome !
I've heard some commentators say that the current improvements in bikes have already changed the tactics of Paris-Roubaix in that only a few of the cobbled sections are now tactically decisive.
Van Aert flatted on a tarmac section.... Rgr
Basically ruining the whole point of doing the cobbles. And then the following logic is...well why even bother with the classics. If you make them too easy the whole point of what makes them special disappears. And then they to will.
Go do gravel if you want 45mm tires and suspension
I believe I started watching peak torque first around 2years ago and started watching Dylan around a couple months after that. I thoroughly enjoy this kind of conversation and especially this podcast episode.
If the fork makes a difference in aero, what’s the potential of making improvements to the existing bike by installing a 3D-printed clip of fork extension?
Mega collaboration. I’ve been watching Dylan for years. More recently found peak torque
Regarding the aero stanchions being nearly impossible to manufacture, what about a typical rigid aero fork with a single piston below the headtube?
Lifetime has figured out, that if they open their events, (especially in gravel) to the general public, it is incredibly profitable, this is why gravel has grown in popularity in the U.S. The. Bike industry likes to sponsoring gravel pros, it’s cheap marketing for a minimal cost versus sponsoring a team or teams.
Have watched both of you for years. Great discussion!
the lauf front suspension would limit the aero drag compared to traditional suspensions.
Followed Dylan first and follow both of you now. Great topics!
I watch everything by both of you! Though, I found Dillon first with his amazing training videos. For an easy to follow but deep dive into engineering PeakTorque cant be beat.
I see you as the same. I am the guy who goes OCD on optimizing for the fun of it. I just like optimizing, tweaking and doing research. I don't race so how fast is irrelevant but yet it gives me a thrill to have a custom bike that is optimized for me and unique.
I follow both of you. Both channels are really interesting in their own way.
In terms of stuff to carry for flat tires. I would recommend cutting up an old MTB tires and having some make shift patches for the inside of a ripped tire.
I follow both PT & Dylan for several years now.
I love both channels even tho I don’t race anymore.
Can’t remember who I started watching first
great EP, always have loved both channels! Dylan to the Canyon Grizl?
Awesome chat!
I reckon the crossover must be : nerdy guys who ride a bike and want to do less effort than less nerdy guys, no matter the level.
Also, funny hearing DJ talking about talent xD
Found PT first, back in the early days. Maybe since that strain gauge explanation video. Also watch Dylan's stuff
I don't think that the 40mm or so tire road bike that dylan is thiking about would be optimal for Paris-Roubaix, too much aero penalty and to actually be somwhat effective it would need a system to change the tire pressure while riding. I think that someting like the Pinarell Dogma FS form 2019 with the HiRide electronic suspension system would be the best option, maybe with 30mm tires or something like that. What do you think?
These systems exist and were used last year by DSM and Jumbo to some extent. There's still 200km of non cobbles at roubaix where a 40mm tire is a big disadvantage.
@@MrKipperfish yes and I think that even with that system it would not work
I follow Hambini first then Dylan and you after Hambini mentioned you in a TH-cam video. You and Dylan have excellent quality content that is useful and enlightening
I watch both of you guys. And inspired by both, just bagged a Cannondale Slate for hooning around. UK roads are getting so bad, the lightweight 'racer' is only good at the local Crit circuit....
both channels! found about the same time. as a rabbit hole addict I love you both.
Rockshox RS-1 in aero shape with aero cover for the stanchions
with less travel and no rear shock in my option
or just Diverge STR
What would be interesting is to set up an alternative race series with no limitations and see what comes out of the woodwork, faired recumbent bikes on MTB tires 🤷
Isn't the Roubaix run under UCI technical regs? Have they amended the tyre widths for road or are they not still 33mm max?
Mr Torque, I found Dylan’s TH-cam channel first. I am an amateur cyclocross rider currently watching you from a static turbo. (Hope that’s useful to you)
I would say there is a lot of crossover! Or at least, there should be.. Because for someone who "understands" the cycling world and truly rides a bike what both of have to say is extremely valuable. I subscribe both your channels...
Two great guys having a great chat, brilliant job 👏
I'm a remote software developer, but I used to work on very engineering oriented teams (EE rather than ME, though). I come here because I live in a rural area now and nobody I know talks about technical stuff. I'll be honest, I understand maybe 25% of what you're talking about, but I just miss that technical banter. I watch Dylan because I am actually a sports science nerd. I don't do it much any more, but in my youth I would read papers all the time as a weird kind of hobby. I never actually did anything with the information, I just thought it was interesting. Very unfortunately most of the science and statistics is junk, though. I really enjoy statistics (super nerd) so I think half of the fun was poking holes in the papers. Probably started to watch both of you at about the same time. Was super surprised by the cross over, but it was fun! Would watch again.
I listen to @dylan and wait for his video drops, for last year or so it’s my favorite TH-cam Channel
extremely interesting on 2x vs 1x! I highly recommend the GRX 2x w/ 11-40 XTR cassette for gravel. I've never once dropped the chain on the front. Deeply regret getting an XC bike with SRAM Eagle 1x when XTR 2x is still available. Even at XX1 spec the 1x is shockingly nasty
One big reason for incremental improvements is the way the industry is structured. Frames, wheels and tyres and groupsets all come from different suppliers so no single company could easily build a 65-70 mm tyred gravel bike without significant compromise.
Very interesting video. Thank you. I have a stupid question. Can you fit a 29er MTB tire on 700c wheelset? Is it the same diameter of the wheel?
Yes, thats what both of us are running. 29er mtb tyres on road/gravel rims work.
Wouldn’t something like the old cannondale headshox be a better fit? Then you can have more aerodynamic fork legs and most of the exposed round bit is right in front of the down tube anyway? I’m sure you could design a fairly aero shock boot type thing.
Kudos to Paris-Roubaix for posing a cycling racing challenge with SO many tradeoffs that it drives cycling tech geeks crazy! 😅
Discussions this long really benefit from chapters and bookmarking. I ain't sitting through 75 minutes to find the juicy bits; ain't nobody got time for that.
As a long time Lefty runner there is one issue that I don't see mentioned... and the same goes for suspension on drop bar bikes in general. Yes, one could optimise a bike for the event with your pro mechanics or box fresh sponsored product, it would run amazing - but for the amateur user unless you stick religiously to the (short) 50hr service intervals, you're going to run into big bills quickly. Servicing for these is awkward and stupidly expensive, and every so often you'll need a new lower leg, its cost prohibitive. For drop bar bikes where the user is more likely to be putting in the miles, its barely worth it outside of an event special build. Extreme long service interval suspension would be amazing for drop bar, or evolve the Lauf style.
I'm sad that BHD wasn't available for a comment.
Are Specialized still making the Roubaix frame with the elastomert inserts?
No, long gone. I still have a Roubaix SL3 and IMO the best endurance roadbike frame ever conceived.
Dylan first as I was more interested in the training side of riding, and marginal gains. But hell after finding out these gains ain't marginal I dug deeper and found your channel.
I started with Dylan because of his excellent exercise physiology background, but I found peak torque through inadvertently finding a geeky engineering subject.
Nerdgasm!
My daughter introduced me to Dylan's channel, she does miss his whitepaper analysis as they have been really insightful in her cycling and for PE studies.
Hey PT can you comment on frame thickness of the modern times? Frames are so thin now that we must be losing stiffness somewhere. For example, durianrider's claim that the new SL8 is the slowest tarmac ever made
Would it be any worse if a rubaix bike had a suspension seatpost and stem (futureshock?) instead of mtb-like suspension?
I watch all of Dylan's video's,but I have heard of Peak Torque and watch the odd video from you.However I'll be dipping into youre channel to see do more of your vid's interest me.
yup I also think that both for road and paths, 35mm to 42mm (or even up to 45mm) are the best tyres, and the most good looking ones. I got a Canyon Pathlite 6 (2022 model) and it's a super gorgeous bike, it has 40mm tyres (stock tyres) but once those are worn out my idea is to get the Continental Contact Urban tyres. Great rolling resistance, superb wet grip, you have a lot of widths to choose from (from 28mm to 50mm), it has a good price and puncture protection is good. Road cycling imho, is going to evolve to wider tyres, maybe up to 35mm, 40mm (my fav width) at most.
Had the Conti Contact Urban Speed tires on my commuter, it had terrible grip in the wet and it didnt hold up very long. Tossed the front then after the rear was gone.
@@dakalla sigh byciclesrollingresistance webpage says otherwise. Also I like those tyres design. I really want those or very similar tyres for my Canyon Pathlite 6 (2022 model)
What about skinnier tyres but on wheels with super deep interior channels (ie huge air volume that can run at lower pressures). Also what about mini suspension such as the Lauf CX fork?
Not enough grip.
Would wind play a part in any watt comparison? Is this ever factored in?
Follow.up, i keep hearing at leat for zwift racing people with thr same power output can have different times based on where they put thr power down. Dors this play a part too?
The race could be really interesting if a fraction of the field ran much bigger tires. The teams with skinny tires would have to try to drop the fat tire riders on the flat sections, so one team might start drilling it over 50k/hr from the gun. Team tactics might get really weird
I'm sub'd to both of you!
Interestingly, I was at Velofollies bike expo in Kortrijk Belgium this past weekend and got excited when I saw the Factor stand, but got bummed when I didn't see Dylan (or replica) of his dropbar setup. Sad news that he's on the way out, but I agree, all of these gravel bikes should be accepting 700x50.
Dylan said they accept 700x50, but what he didn't say is that they could accept bigger. I think if he's want his RaceKings, he's looking for something to clear 29x2.1s.
Rodeo Labs maybe?
I'm running Raceking 29x2.0s on my Flaanimal5. No issues. Vittoria Mezcals 2.1s fit, but not much clearance. Rim width should be considered.
i am a follower of both your channel, just because i need some good info to get past the whole bike industry BS, on efficiency and gains.
@PeakTorque For roubaix, a aero version of the lauf fork with a lockable seatpost (suspension dropper post), 35mm rear tyre and 40mm front tyres both slick.
Maybe Peak Torque and Hambini should design/build a bike and get Dylan to race it in l’enfer du Nord
Hahaha.. Dylan wouldn't make it to the first cobbled sector.
Great podcast. Can't remember which channel I found first but watch both a lot!