Mods can reuse assets, but only if they want to. If they were, say adding a new area and the travelling merchant happens to be there, They could use a different sprite, but the same dialogue and behaviour.
Mods are nearly always made by an incredibly small team of people who aren't getting paid and are doing it just for fun, so expectations are much lower than for a triple a game.
I say yes, nobodies making any money off mods (cough cough bethesda), and modders most likely don't have some big team to help them make brand new things. Granted they aren't making a game, but the point still stands I think. As for if they count as reuse I say yes, as that one merchant you added in skyrim has probably the same AI as a merchant in Whiterun.
Not so hot take: the assets don't matter, what you do with them does. Put another way: An asset flip is the frame of a house (edit: while still being sold for the Price of a house), a product is a fully build house with furnishing.
@Bleh yeah a true asset flip isn't even a game, it's just someone throwing a ton of mismatched, pre-made assets into a small 3d space with no rhyme or reason.
path of exile's example is pretty good in that aspect, the same assets for a cliff side map (the ledge) are used with a different generator, some houses, and a red filter to make a volcano map (kaom's stronghold) the enemies for one of the previous leagues were regular monsters with some clockwork accessories. their gdc talk on how they make a lot of new content in less than 3 months is basically saying asset reuse 1000 times.
This kind of topic also underscores the importance of letting patents expire and allowing stuff to fall into the public domain - it's the more tangible form of asset reuse.
For an example of great asset reuse: Doom 1 assets were reused in Doom 2. The familiarity with previous enemies meant they could start adding in a bunch of new enemies for players to fight.
It's funny I ran into this same debate in college, while working on a final project I was trying to make a game level with flying mechanics unfortunately since I'm an artist I had very little understanding of how to code (particularity in UE3) so I spent some time reskining one of the pre-made vehicles and moved on. When my professor reviewed my work they gave me s*&% about not making it myself and that in the "real world" I would have to be able to create everything myself as anything else would be seen as copying other people's work. Fun fact: Once I got into the industry nearly half of the projects I've worked on either used asset packs or modded old assets to fit with the new framework.
Asset reuse can also instill a sense of nostalgia. "I remember that!" or "Man it's just like it used to be" kind of feelings when seeing a familiar health bar or enemy or location.
Tuss This is especially prominent with sound effects. Done well: classic jingles (item acquisition in Zelda). Done bad: unpleasant Game Boy sound effects in Pokémon Sword and Shield.
Kind of related - I like how Doom Eternal reused a lot of glory kill animations from Doom 2016, but changed them halfway through to make use of the Slayer's new armblade or to generally spice things up. For example, there's an animation of getting a one-two punch on a possessed soldier in 2016 that looks identical in Eternal, right up until the second punch is about to happen, where instead the blade comes out and stabs in with a completely different piece of animation.
A Goomba lifting is right foot is just a mirrored sprite of a Goombra lifting its left foot. Goomba's animation only has one sprite, it's just mirrored back and forth.
The bush is less time/money saving and more an innovative use of the NES systems to save memory. Cartridges were a HUGE limitation at the time. But still good asset re-use
Those are true, but definitely two entirely different issues. Lost levels re-uses assets to make a new game quickly. Clouds & bushes being the same thing (as well as ground tiles and vines), as well as animations consisting of mirroring the same image (given the NES has sprite mirroring as a hardware feature) are all examples of dealing with technical limitations, NOT asset re-use. They would've drawn seperate graphics for these if they had storage space to spare. But alas, 40 kilobytes - the Size of Super Mario Bros. is the hard limit of what the NES could handle without some kind of hardware expansion, (these hardware expansions are hidden in cartridges, which masks their existence, but nonetheless, they are there.). Thus, things get re-used to save storage space, not development effort. (If anything, making graphics that can reasonably be re-used without looking stupid is actually extra effort over just making two different graphics...)
A graphic designer here. Asset re-use is a saving grace, especially when deadlines are short, but there is a way to do it without it being obvious and lazy.
There is a huge difference between an asset flip and an assest thats been reused. An asset flip (a term coined by Jim Sterling) is when someone lazily buys/steals an entire premade demo game, or uses only assets bought from a store such as Unity or Unreal without making any alterations. Asset reusage is just smart design, as you put it reusing a rock that has been used previously because, seriously, who cares? As long as the rest of the game is designed well. Never confuse the two. Asset flip = BAD AND LAZY Asset reusage = GOOD AND SMART
and if the art guys do things right, you might not need more than like 5 rocks, all you have to do is rotate and play with scale of the rock and you can even have the same rock side by side and those will look like 2 different rocks
does anyone remember when most indie games were asset-flip fangames, and some of them were better than most games in the series they were based on? RIP free internet
Asset reuse is all fine and good, just don't tell people you're removing content to rework your assets and make them better, only to use the exact same assets (glares at Game Freak)
heck, don't tell people you're making future proofed assets so you don't have to redo the assets every game, then two games later use those assets being upgraded as an excuse to cut important content, then don't actually upgrade the assets.
@Slow Winter Nuts If we ignore new mons requiring new animations just in general (including dynamaxing for "new mons"), the only new animations they added were interactions with your pokemon at the Camp. Which uh... pretty sure not many people actually saw.
Glad that fallout new Vegas was the example used. 3D fallout games have always been a good example of this, with F3 Assets being used for NV and 4 Assets being used for 76. 76 got a lot of flack for being an “asset flip” of 4 despite having a heck of a lot more new models, same as new Vegas which reused 3 stuff while making its own models (an example being securitrons)
@@CockatooDude indeed, but in the same way you wouldn't call a pile of manuscripts a book so you wouldn't call a loose connections of assets and environments a game.
@@DimT670 It's definitely still got a ways to go in the core gameplay loops, but they've been making pretty significant progress on many of them (they also have to in order to get Squadron 42 done, which is expected late this year).
I was under the impression that an asset flip uses mainly cheap store bought or even straight up stolen assets and lacked more or less any kind of original work. Reusing assets is entirely different, and as you say more of a good thing.
Yeah, a misleading title, although the underlying point (3:33) that the reuse of assets wasn't what made those games bad still stands. I suppose the use of public assets made those games look a lot better than they were though, assuming you don't bother to watch a trailer.
@@takatamiyagawa5688 Let's just say that if you see and recognize those public assets in a game it's not likely to be a good title. Possible, maybe, but not likely.
Yoooo! The Chris Jericho drawing (Man of a Thousand and FOUR holds) had me cracking up! I already loved your content before, but that literally made my day.
something something Toby Fox undertale music. been about 7 tracks and 20 motif in total for a soundtrack that spans about 100 tracks. the game been heavy on Leitmotifs is a understatement.
Creative laziness is the best kind of laziness. If I happened to be an employer and someone told me (genuinely) that they were creatively lazy, they'd be hired on the spot and probably given at least a middle management position, if not upper management. Something everyone always forgets is that management is supposed to be a certain level of lazy. Your underlings are meant to be doing work, not you. This means no peering over their shoulder so you feel like you're doing something, no complaining about everything, no "helping" unless asked, no "optimizing their workflow," no deciding what work is important, no telling them what to do unless they ask even if they look lost, etc. Too many managers are too competent.
Im going to say sometime that worked sometime that didn´t work. there is the old joke. 'can I copy your homework?' 'yeah just change it up a bit so it doesn't look obvious you copied' 'ok'
@jocaguz18 That's what I meant. Superpowers. I'm not much of a roleplayer, I tend to use the most efficient mechanics available to me. I liked driving in SR3, in the 4th I didn't really care about cars, as much as I would like to.
That indie dev megaphone is a great initiative! I fear that it might not have the huge platform that the conferences had, but it does help alleviate the issue.
What is probably my favorite form of asset reuse is when games reskin or recolor other enemies to indicate a more powerful or an alternate form of a previous foe. That trope is especially common in JRPGs, of course, but it's managed to bleed into other games as well, with examples such as Enter the Gungeon (Oubliette) and the Risk of Rain games (elites).
I actually dislike that. I don't hate games or devs that do it: I get why they do it, and it makes for a good shorthand as difficulty increases in a game. But every time I see a recolored enemy, I read it as "like what you've seen before, but harder". it reminds me that the devs didn't come up with an enemy that had a new attack pattern or skills. Basically it says "Keep doing what you were, but better". It's not a new challenge, just the same challenge, to a higher level of precision. But that's a personal taste issue, not the kind of hate thing this video was discussing people having with asset reuse.
That kind of re-use can be a real asset when certain tactics work well against certain enemies, and the re-skin clues you into how you should probably treat this new enemy you've found.
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I most commonly associate that with the Diablo series. XD
Connotation versus denotation. Same denotation in both cases (the crunch was unavoidable), but saying they were forced to endure it has a more negative connotation.
@@AshtonSnapp I think we have a responsibility to use negative language in response to crunch periods. They're a an avoidable bane forced on developers by their employers
Metal Fan I never said the more negative connotation was undeserved; crunch is a horrible thing that should never be experienced by anyone working on anything.
The original Ratchet and Clank games as well as Jak and Daxter are also resorted to reusing assets for movement animations and game controls and they made for pretty good games.
Me and my sister are making a game and this TH-cam channel is really helping alot :D thank you
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I feel like asset flipping was coined for the most extreme case of selling free example levels or whole games under a different name for a small profit. If someone uses store bought assets badly it's just a bad game.
One kind of fun idea for asset flips can be small modifications between generations. This can add to world-building while still reducing work needed to build new assets.
Dragon Age 2 reuse of assets was not "smart". It directly impacted the enjoyment of the game with constant reuse of the same maps, making the game feel cheap in the eyes of players. It's great example of bad reuse of assets in supposed AAA type of game.
@@ka1ock Copied and pasted ridiculus anount of times. You would get same maps reused like 5-6 times in the game, each time for apperently new locations.
player1 I agree that the reused maps got tiring and simple, and that DA2 was the worst game, but 16 months... Jesus I never knew they had such a tight schedule. Expecting someone to come up with an equivalent to DAO in 16 months is like expecting someone to spin straw into gold.
Personally asset flipping can act as a grounding experience for instance I would love to see a horror game sequel start in a ruined city and then you run across the main puzzle statue from the 1st game in the middle of the ruins, you might have even been able to guess by the unique doorknobs from the first game that an NPC tripped over in the chase scene.
A big reason Marvel vs Capcom has such a huge roster is that nearly every single character use sprites from earlier games. Rumor is even the original characters were either finished unfinished Darkstalkers 3 characters or from a scrapped Darkstalkers 4.
Please, please. PLEASE. Turn that last part into a video series with the developers taking point on wiring a script for their game then animation, using premade assets of course! Thanks. P.s. huge fan of the show, if been following this channel as soon as it hit TH-cam. LTL
Majora's Mask is an excellent example of asset reuse. They used the same game engine and character models as Ocarina of Time to focus more on gameplay and story. The result was one of the most unique and fun Zelda game ever released. It is my favorite game so far.
(I'm not a game dev) This is a fantastic topic to cover for game design, and thanks for doing it. Anyways, I fully support asset reuse just due to you being able to put more thought and effort in to things that can really change a game's mechanics or story, with that time you saved with reusing assets you could've came up with a great idea to add to the story of your game or maybe even planned a meeting or something similar. Overall the developers have more time to work on the game if they reuse assets, and that might mean with that extra time saved, they could've refined the game even more to make it feel the way the devs want it, because that's a hard thing to do. You would actually play a polished, refined version of the game that the devs are proud to put out there because it's ready, rather than having a rushed game come out because of the deadline and such. Anyways, the devs just have more time, and more space to create something great.
How I also define asset flip. Not to be confused with asset reuse. Which come in many forms form simple pallet swaps in the same game to copy pasting a book from one game to a other. ;)
HAH! I actually discussed this with a friend, in regards to Doom Eternal, saying I would have been just as ok, arguably even preferred, if Doom Eternal would have used a lot of the Doom 2016 assets, rather than remake everything. He made the argument that people would have cried about developer laziness if they did.
They probably could have gotten away with using the same engine too. I don't know why Id insists on churning out new ones so often; it's not like there's a third-party market for them anymore.
Done smart, it's a hell of a thing. Warframe has AMAZING primary work done on the important central factors of warframes and weapons, but you can see a lot of the secondary and tertiary art reused all over the place! Famously, the icon art for the powerful Orokin Catalyst and Orokin Reactor items are just extremely-slightly modified images of the icon of uncommon world drop resource Orokin Cell, just flipped upside down 180 degrees and tinted blue or gold. More recently, I spotted the model of the "incubator upgrade segment" for one of your shuttle's modules used as a huge segment of a gigantic arm of the new Scarlet Spear station in the newest update, which also takes its interior from the central hall of several other stations, but with different light colors and a new display in the central area instead of a statue and water feature.
This is in many ways the opposite of the problem people had with Mass Effect: Andromeda. Where many assets made in the previous games had to be rebuilt from scratch because they could not port them to the new engine EA insisted upon. But then I noticed bits of Andromeda were used in Anthem. So back on topic as it seems like they used one project to further another different project.
Asset reuse done right can bring you a huge success. I mean some studios did remakes of old games and changed so little and their works were a great success. Before Sonic Generations, people were practically begging Sega to release a 3d gameplay that is identical to the original 2d games just with better graphics. In resident evil 3, they used the same police station and other locations (not to mention enemies and weapons) and it was still a legendary game. Some games used to buy engines so they could use or create similar assets to the ones in the original game. Not to mention the amount of successful mods or maps. Just think of Dota, Counter Strike ... games that defined an era.
Assets reuse is good. As long as it continues to get build on. It opens up time for story and level design which builds the experience. Just like book series game series can take what they made before and build on them.
If done right (like in Yakuza) another great bonus is the players familiarity with the surroundings, making for an easier jump into the game or giving a small nostalgic feeling while playing. Playing games from companies that reuse assets for different games, not just sequels, gives a greater perception of coherency between the games and can lead to a much more enjoyable experience for the player
I think small variations can alleviate the underlying problem of samyness, which can arise when asset reuse within a game series or within a single game is rampant. Especially the Halo 1(PC) suffered heavily from copy paste stuff. Throwing in a graphity, some furniture or a plant could alleviate a lot of those problems. In contrast this is what makes Portal 2 so great: not a single room feels the same, even though they are all constructed from the same elements. This kind of samyness is also rampant in enemy types: When certain enemies always behave the same way and the player can obviously see the bare bones of the mechanics, then the interaction can become mechanical and automated. For some games this might be even desired (we dont play mario for the tragic tale of a goomba), but for others some random variations may make the game more believable. In summary: Don´t focus on asset reuse, focus on the feeling of samyness.
Everything is usually a tradeoff. The removal or absence of certain features usually means the improvement or inclusion of other features, that the dev team thought was more important. Overwatch goes 9 months without adding a new hero, but they make huge improvements to the game’s competitive ruleset, and balancing.
So, I feel like there's a terminology issue where, because all the times I've heard asset flips complained about it's something more specific than what you're talking about. Specifically, rather than being the devs reusing their own assets, it's when devs make a cheap game that entirely or almost entirely uses assets that they didn't make. The apparent purpose of these is to make just enough of a game as cheaply as possible to try and make a quick buck. I don't think asset reuse, as distinct from asset flips as described above, is a bad thing. Like any tool, it just needs to be used responsibly, which means either putting effort into working the pre-existing assets into a new game (which might involve tweaking elements to make it a better fit, or just exercising discretion in when and where you show them in the game so it fits), or using it for learning or interesting experiments, where the point isn't the complete work but seeing or demonstrating how a concept comes together. Basically, the second case applies to games that aren't meant to be, considered, or (maybe most importantly) marketed as a complete product.
I'd argue that even making a game out of assets you didn't create yourself isn't a terrible idea. The rub is that second part - making cheap, low-effort games.
No, no, not just scammy indie asset flips, what about developers remaking same FIFA, WWE or Call of Duty game without updating enough? That's an example of bad asset reuse.
I'm a building architect in real life. Everything we do could be considered an asset flip. Today, every part of a building is a product created by a factory somewhere. While these parts are cut and shaped into the buildings you see around you, they're for the most part standardized parts. For a variety of reasons, including our own time, productivity, warranty, and profit, we try to use these products as intended. Anything truly custom in a building is immensely expensive and time consuming to create. I'll predict here that in a few years this will be true with media as well. This is already reflected in companies producing proprietary game engines, like Unreal. Soon, it will be game mechanics and 3D models and assets as well.
I feel that you are missing something really important, namely a definition of an asset flip. Asset flips, as coined by Jim Sterling, is a game that is COMPLETELY built from assets that the developer did not create. Depending on the game, mechanics, maps ui and models may have been purchased/stolen from elsewhere and thrown into the game with no regards for a coherent design.
A quick read suggests that "Asset Flip" has two parts: extensive use of externally-developed assets, and shovelware-level quality. PUBG has been called an "Asset Flip", despite not being shovelware, which means people are either misusing or redefining the term.
So for instance Ori and the Blind forest vs Will of the wisps. Looks like artwork and maps were reused but they added new features that made the second one soo much better!
I sometimes wonder how many different individual poses of the EC host at the lectern have accumulated over the years. I can just imagine the hundreds and hundreds of Dans and Matts and Davids and other guests that have appeared on the show in the last decade.
"Hey.. hey Jimmy.. Yeah, yeah, I know. But what we really need to you do right now is.." "Recolor those skeleton there, yeah those ones in the other catacomb. You know the ones, right?"
Another big question: Do some mods count as asset flipping/reuse? Is it more acceptable for mods to reuse assets? Why or why not?
🗿
It sucks
Mods can reuse assets, but only if they want to. If they were, say adding a new area and the travelling merchant happens to be there, They could use a different sprite, but the same dialogue and behaviour.
Mods are nearly always made by an incredibly small team of people who aren't getting paid and are doing it just for fun, so expectations are much lower than for a triple a game.
I say yes, nobodies making any money off mods (cough cough bethesda), and modders most likely don't have some big team to help them make brand new things. Granted they aren't making a game, but the point still stands I think. As for if they count as reuse I say yes, as that one merchant you added in skyrim has probably the same AI as a merchant in Whiterun.
Not so hot take: the assets don't matter, what you do with them does.
Put another way: An asset flip is the frame of a house (edit: while still being sold for the Price of a house), a product is a fully build house with furnishing.
That's the way I see it, use asset flips to build the foundation of the game but don't rely on it to make the whole game
@Bleh yeah a true asset flip isn't even a game, it's just someone throwing a ton of mismatched, pre-made assets into a small 3d space with no rhyme or reason.
A fully built house with furnishing is simply a good asset
path of exile's example is pretty good in that aspect, the same assets for a cliff side map (the ledge) are used with a different generator, some houses, and a red filter to make a volcano map (kaom's stronghold)
the enemies for one of the previous leagues were regular monsters with some clockwork accessories.
their gdc talk on how they make a lot of new content in less than 3 months is basically saying asset reuse 1000 times.
@ShaunDoesMusic laughs in nba, fifa and call of duty.
This kind of topic also underscores the importance of letting patents expire and allowing stuff to fall into the public domain - it's the more tangible form of asset reuse.
I think assets fall under copyright
Patents expire (after 20 years in the US), but copiright is for ages (70 years after death), thanks Disney
@@effuah And as long as Disney has money, they'll keep copyright use just beyond their IP's affected age.
@@effuah I think that was bumped up to 120 years after death recently.
@@connordarvall8482 why even keep up the pretense at this point lol, just lobby to have the whole legal concept thrown out
For an example of great asset reuse: Doom 1 assets were reused in Doom 2. The familiarity with previous enemies meant they could start adding in a bunch of new enemies for players to fight.
Solid example
Don't forget the Nintendo 64 Zelda games
@@elia-eo3bf I believe the video already used majoras mask as an example
It's funny I ran into this same debate in college, while working on a final project I was trying to make a game level with flying mechanics unfortunately since I'm an artist I had very little understanding of how to code (particularity in UE3) so I spent some time reskining one of the pre-made vehicles and moved on. When my professor reviewed my work they gave me s*&% about not making it myself and that in the "real world" I would have to be able to create everything myself as anything else would be seen as copying other people's work.
Fun fact: Once I got into the industry nearly half of the projects I've worked on either used asset packs or modded old assets to fit with the new framework.
Your professor was a boomer.
@Manek Iridius that's what he meant by boomer
Same energy as in the real world you won’t have a calculator with you all the time
@@Roadhouse-h1v Yeah, though that argument is even less valid today as not having a calculator would mean I lost my phone.
Imagine if someone called a Mario Maker level bad because it re-used assets from other games.
Asset reuse can also instill a sense of nostalgia. "I remember that!" or "Man it's just like it used to be" kind of feelings when seeing a familiar health bar or enemy or location.
Tuss This is especially prominent with sound effects. Done well: classic jingles (item acquisition in Zelda). Done bad: unpleasant Game Boy sound effects in Pokémon Sword and Shield.
Kind of related - I like how Doom Eternal reused a lot of glory kill animations from Doom 2016, but changed them halfway through to make use of the Slayer's new armblade or to generally spice things up. For example, there's an animation of getting a one-two punch on a possessed soldier in 2016 that looks identical in Eternal, right up until the second punch is about to happen, where instead the blade comes out and stabs in with a completely different piece of animation.
I love the little details, like having a snake drinking-bird instead of an actually drinking bird
I have a feeling that is asset reuse.
*S O ?*
Even back in the NES days there's plenty of asset re-use. Lost Levels exist, and clouds are bushes.
A Goomba lifting is right foot is just a mirrored sprite of a Goombra lifting its left foot. Goomba's animation only has one sprite, it's just mirrored back and forth.
The bush is less time/money saving and more an innovative use of the NES systems to save memory. Cartridges were a HUGE limitation at the time. But still good asset re-use
Those are true, but definitely two entirely different issues.
Lost levels re-uses assets to make a new game quickly.
Clouds & bushes being the same thing (as well as ground tiles and vines), as well as animations consisting of mirroring the same image (given the NES has sprite mirroring as a hardware feature) are all examples of dealing with technical limitations, NOT asset re-use.
They would've drawn seperate graphics for these if they had storage space to spare.
But alas, 40 kilobytes - the Size of Super Mario Bros. is the hard limit of what the NES could handle without some kind of hardware expansion, (these hardware expansions are hidden in cartridges, which masks their existence, but nonetheless, they are there.).
Thus, things get re-used to save storage space, not development effort. (If anything, making graphics that can reasonably be re-used without looking stupid is actually extra effort over just making two different graphics...)
A graphic designer here. Asset re-use is a saving grace, especially when deadlines are short, but there is a way to do it without it being obvious and lazy.
Majora's Mask is my favorite game of all time so naturally I am totally fine with asset re-use. Focus more on design and less on busy work.
There is a huge difference between an asset flip and an assest thats been reused. An asset flip (a term coined by Jim Sterling) is when someone lazily buys/steals an entire premade demo game, or uses only assets bought from a store such as Unity or Unreal without making any alterations. Asset reusage is just smart design, as you put it reusing a rock that has been used previously because, seriously, who cares? As long as the rest of the game is designed well.
Never confuse the two.
Asset flip = BAD AND LAZY
Asset reusage = GOOD AND SMART
Asset reusing is not always good and smart. There's a point where stuff needs to be changed.
@@KasumiRINA keeping your asset reuse subtle and immersive is certainly key.
and if the art guys do things right, you might not need more than like 5 rocks, all you have to do is rotate and play with scale of the rock and you can even have the same rock side by side and those will look like 2 different rocks
2:00 Aww snap, it's Pam!
That snek tapping on the keyboard saying "heck," gave me a grin, that's good asset reuse right there.
2:43 "Strong Bad... you've met with a terrible fate, haven't you?"
Nice homestar runner reference
does anyone remember when most indie games were asset-flip fangames, and some of them were better than most games in the series they were based on?
RIP free internet
LunarMagic remembers.
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@@jasonkeith2832 pepperidge farm remembers
I mean Epic Battle Fantasy 5's great grandfather was your typical flash game made for lols .
EC: Talks positively about Dragon Age 2!
Me: *incoherent sobbing*
I only wish they had reuse more assets. The changes were one bad aspects of that game.
@@jtjumperify yeah, i didn't see nearly enough iterations of that one dungeon room with the crates moved around slightly and some exits blocked.
I just want to say how much I appreciate the HomeStarRunner reference in the thumbnail.
Asset reuse is all fine and good, just don't tell people you're removing content to rework your assets and make them better, only to use the exact same assets (glares at Game Freak)
heck, don't tell people you're making future proofed assets so you don't have to redo the assets every game, then two games later use those assets being upgraded as an excuse to cut important content, then don't actually upgrade the assets.
But didn't they actually do something like that though? I'm pretty sure Sw/Sh involved new animations that previous games didn't have
@Slow Winter Nuts
If we ignore new mons requiring new animations just in general (including dynamaxing for "new mons"), the only new animations they added were interactions with your pokemon at the Camp.
Which uh... pretty sure not many people actually saw.
The Pokémon camp animations are reused from amie
I was just debating this internally on my current project. Thanks for that.
Damn you Matt. Look what you've done. Now I'm scrutinizing every drawing from the video trying to remember if I saw it in a previous one.
Fallout NV asset reuse done right.
Fallout 76 asset reuse done.
Amen! Preach it!
And let's not forget Fallout 2. They spent the time they saved making assets on making GAME.
Glitchy. Done glitchy.
But it's..
"SIXTEEEEEEEEN TIMES the details"tho..
4:54 I love how each book looks like it's the same one to make a large library of books. It's as if they reused the same asset for this great shot!
3:40 "Hold #4: Armbar!"
I never thought I'd see that promo referenced on this channel. 😄
The Chris Jericho drawing at 3:40 is incredibly beautiful. The artist should be proud.
Glad that fallout new Vegas was the example used. 3D fallout games have always been a good example of this, with F3 Assets being used for NV and 4 Assets being used for 76. 76 got a lot of flack for being an “asset flip” of 4 despite having a heck of a lot more new models, same as new Vegas which reused 3 stuff while making its own models (an example being securitrons)
"Every game has a finite amount of time and money"
Star Citizen says Hello
"*Time OR money" - Bay 12 games
He said game not a loose connection of assets and environments.
@@DimT670 Isn't that what all games are for most stages of development?
@@CockatooDude indeed, but in the same way you wouldn't call a pile of manuscripts a book so you wouldn't call a loose connections of assets and environments a game.
@@DimT670 It's definitely still got a ways to go in the core gameplay loops, but they've been making pretty significant progress on many of them (they also have to in order to get Squadron 42 done, which is expected late this year).
I was under the impression that an asset flip uses mainly cheap store bought or even straight up stolen assets and lacked more or less any kind of original work.
Reusing assets is entirely different, and as you say more of a good thing.
Yeah, a misleading title, although the underlying point (3:33) that the reuse of assets wasn't what made those games bad still stands. I suppose the use of public assets made those games look a lot better than they were though, assuming you don't bother to watch a trailer.
@@takatamiyagawa5688 Let's just say that if you see and recognize those public assets in a game it's not likely to be a good title. Possible, maybe, but not likely.
2:44 Oh, hello Strong Bad!
I'd wondered where he'd gotten to.
Yoooo! The Chris Jericho drawing (Man of a Thousand and FOUR holds) had me cracking up! I already loved your content before, but that literally made my day.
I love my artist to be smart and embrace a healthy level of creative lazyness...even if is not needed.
something something Toby Fox undertale music. been about 7 tracks and 20 motif in total for a soundtrack that spans about 100 tracks.
the game been heavy on Leitmotifs is a understatement.
Creative laziness is the best kind of laziness. If I happened to be an employer and someone told me (genuinely) that they were creatively lazy, they'd be hired on the spot and probably given at least a middle management position, if not upper management. Something everyone always forgets is that management is supposed to be a certain level of lazy. Your underlings are meant to be doing work, not you. This means no peering over their shoulder so you feel like you're doing something, no complaining about everything, no "helping" unless asked, no "optimizing their workflow," no deciding what work is important, no telling them what to do unless they ask even if they look lost, etc. Too many managers are too competent.
Saints Row 4 did a good job reusing 3's map, but as a virtual world
Yeaaaaah, arguably. There were some issues with this idea. Like cars being useless.
Im going to say sometime that worked sometime that didn´t work.
there is the old joke.
'can I copy your homework?'
'yeah just change it up a bit so it doesn't look obvious you copied'
'ok'
@jocaguz18 That's what I meant. Superpowers. I'm not much of a roleplayer, I tend to use the most efficient mechanics available to me. I liked driving in SR3, in the 4th I didn't really care about cars, as much as I would like to.
That indie dev megaphone is a great initiative! I fear that it might not have the huge platform that the conferences had, but it does help alleviate the issue.
What is probably my favorite form of asset reuse is when games reskin or recolor other enemies to indicate a more powerful or an alternate form of a previous foe. That trope is especially common in JRPGs, of course, but it's managed to bleed into other games as well, with examples such as Enter the Gungeon (Oubliette) and the Risk of Rain games (elites).
I actually dislike that. I don't hate games or devs that do it: I get why they do it, and it makes for a good shorthand as difficulty increases in a game. But every time I see a recolored enemy, I read it as "like what you've seen before, but harder". it reminds me that the devs didn't come up with an enemy that had a new attack pattern or skills. Basically it says "Keep doing what you were, but better". It's not a new challenge, just the same challenge, to a higher level of precision.
But that's a personal taste issue, not the kind of hate thing this video was discussing people having with asset reuse.
That kind of re-use can be a real asset when certain tactics work well against certain enemies, and the re-skin clues you into how you should probably treat this new enemy you've found.
I most commonly associate that with the Diablo series. XD
Mortal Kombat
Non-JRPGs like F:NV also have reskin too. Unique weapons, Elite monsters, etc.
Chris Jericho, man of 1004 wrestling holds! (133 of them were "armbar").
Loved that
#643: ARMBAR!
1:57 , oh god she escaped, final Pam has arrived
"Every game has a finite amount of time and money"
Laughs in Minecraft.
laughs in 17 years and counting of dwarf fortress
Laughs in roblox.
Laughs in Dungeons and Dragons.
The crunch they had to endure? No no no, the crunch they were FORCED to endure.
Connotation versus denotation. Same denotation in both cases (the crunch was unavoidable), but saying they were forced to endure it has a more negative connotation.
It's actually really sad that EA are more evil than any villain to ever be in any of their games
@@AshtonSnapp I think we have a responsibility to use negative language in response to crunch periods. They're a an avoidable bane forced on developers by their employers
Metal Fan I never said the more negative connotation was undeserved; crunch is a horrible thing that should never be experienced by anyone working on anything.
Absolutely didn't expect to see a '98 WCW Jericho reference in my Extra Credits today!
I really appreciate that you guys are helping indie developers affected by this pandemic & please keep on the amazing work as well 🤟🏽
"Oh hi there Metal Gear Survive, didn't see you there..."
*takes out a gun*
“We will deal with you in a minute....” *Takes out revolver and throwing the game down a pit*
The original Ratchet and Clank games as well as Jak and Daxter are also resorted to reusing assets for movement animations and game controls and they made for pretty good games.
@2:00 is that Final Pam? That's Final Pam! THAT'S MY MOM!
Please bring back the "Games you might not have tried" series. That was one of my sources for cool indie games.
that dragon age deadline crunch, just by the description, made me verbally wince
Work Smarter “Shows A Wheel”
Not Harder “Shows Roblox”
The trails in the Sky trilogy is a complete reuse of the first game, maps and npc's... And yet thoses games really are great !
cant agree with you more
so do the later trails series!
1:57
Where is metal husband?
Me and my sister are making a game and this TH-cam channel is really helping alot :D thank you
I feel like asset flipping was coined for the most extreme case of selling free example levels or whole games under a different name for a small profit. If someone uses store bought assets badly it's just a bad game.
yeah, that's asset flipping, asset flipping is bad, asset reuse can be good if done well
One kind of fun idea for asset flips can be small modifications between generations. This can add to world-building while still reducing work needed to build new assets.
Dragon Age 2 reuse of assets was not "smart". It directly impacted the enjoyment of the game with constant reuse of the same maps, making the game feel cheap in the eyes of players.
It's great example of bad reuse of assets in supposed AAA type of game.
?? The maps were original assets.
@@ka1ock Copied and pasted ridiculus anount of times. You would get same maps reused like 5-6 times in the game, each time for apperently new locations.
player1 I agree that the reused maps got tiring and simple, and that DA2 was the worst game, but 16 months... Jesus I never knew they had such a tight schedule. Expecting someone to come up with an equivalent to DAO in 16 months is like expecting someone to spin straw into gold.
The reuse of the caves was not that big of an issue to me. The ending is what really made me go bah.
Personally asset flipping can act as a grounding experience for instance I would love to see a horror game sequel start in a ruined city and then you run across the main puzzle statue from the 1st game in the middle of the ruins, you might have even been able to guess by the unique doorknobs from the first game that an NPC tripped over in the chase scene.
2:44 ONION BUBS!! I mean...STRONG BAD!!! 8 D
I waited for a Jim Sterling cameo the whole playtime of this video and now im angy!
A big reason Marvel vs Capcom has such a huge roster is that nearly every single character use sprites from earlier games. Rumor is even the original characters were either finished unfinished Darkstalkers 3 characters or from a scrapped Darkstalkers 4.
Please, please. PLEASE. Turn that last part into a video series with the developers taking point on wiring a script for their game then animation, using premade assets of course!
Thanks.
P.s. huge fan of the show, if been following this channel as soon as it hit TH-cam. LTL
1:43 Yo, Angelo.
Majora's Mask is an excellent example of asset reuse. They used the same game engine and character models as Ocarina of Time to focus more on gameplay and story. The result was one of the most unique and fun Zelda game ever released. It is my favorite game so far.
What a great discussion - great to see something traditionally seen as “bad” given a good treatment. Thanks!
1:59 Fantastic Zybourne Clock reference, 10/10
(I'm not a game dev) This is a fantastic topic to cover for game design, and thanks for doing it. Anyways, I fully support asset reuse just due to you being able to put more thought and effort in to things that can really change a game's mechanics or story, with that time you saved with reusing assets you could've came up with a great idea to add to the story of your game or maybe even planned a meeting or something similar. Overall the developers have more time to work on the game if they reuse assets, and that might mean with that extra time saved, they could've refined the game even more to make it feel the way the devs want it, because that's a hard thing to do. You would actually play a polished, refined version of the game that the devs are proud to put out there because it's ready, rather than having a rushed game come out because of the deadline and such. Anyways, the devs just have more time, and more space to create something great.
Asset Flip originally meant junkware developers who flipped bought assets to make a quick buck off steam.
And now the mobile stores
@@Max_G4 NotCandy Squash 4!
How I also define asset flip. Not to be confused with asset reuse. Which come in many forms form simple pallet swaps in the same game to copy pasting a book from one game to a other. ;)
@@Reelix no, of course not... Cup hand hero adventure!
A lot of my newer favorite games are indie games
Thanks for helping the indie developers
HAH! I actually discussed this with a friend, in regards to Doom Eternal, saying I would have been just as ok, arguably even preferred, if Doom Eternal would have used a lot of the Doom 2016 assets, rather than remake everything. He made the argument that people would have cried about developer laziness if they did.
They probably could have gotten away with using the same engine too. I don't know why Id insists on churning out new ones so often; it's not like there's a third-party market for them anymore.
Done smart, it's a hell of a thing. Warframe has AMAZING primary work done on the important central factors of warframes and weapons, but you can see a lot of the secondary and tertiary art reused all over the place! Famously, the icon art for the powerful Orokin Catalyst and Orokin Reactor items are just extremely-slightly modified images of the icon of uncommon world drop resource Orokin Cell, just flipped upside down 180 degrees and tinted blue or gold. More recently, I spotted the model of the "incubator upgrade segment" for one of your shuttle's modules used as a huge segment of a gigantic arm of the new Scarlet Spear station in the newest update, which also takes its interior from the central hall of several other stations, but with different light colors and a new display in the central area instead of a statue and water feature.
asset reuse is amazing in my opinion cause then each developer gets their own 'fingerprint' and feel!
World of Warcraft does this all the time as well with new races. Thank you for changing my tune on how I feel about this!
This is in many ways the opposite of the problem people had with Mass Effect: Andromeda. Where many assets made in the previous games had to be rebuilt from scratch because they could not port them to the new engine EA insisted upon.
But then I noticed bits of Andromeda were used in Anthem. So back on topic as it seems like they used one project to further another different project.
Asset reuse done right can bring you a huge success. I mean some studios did remakes of old games and changed so little and their works were a great success.
Before Sonic Generations, people were practically begging Sega to release a 3d gameplay that is identical to the original 2d games just with better graphics.
In resident evil 3, they used the same police station and other locations (not to mention enemies and weapons) and it was still a legendary game.
Some games used to buy engines so they could use or create similar assets to the ones in the original game. Not to mention the amount of successful mods or maps.
Just think of Dota, Counter Strike ... games that defined an era.
This reminds me of the open fortress project were it reuses most of the assets from TF2 to make a quake like game
Assets reuse is good. As long as it continues to get build on. It opens up time for story and level design which builds the experience.
Just like book series game series can take what they made before and build on them.
I love that you mentioned Fallout NV, I was thinking the same
Im not gonna lie to you dawg, kinda hit the nail on the point with that FNV take...
Those friggin Yakuza animations killed me. Thank you.
5:08 how to Bill Wurtz
Matt: you can make a silent hill out of this
Me: you can make a reli- no don't.
Asset flipping as a concept is not evil or good; it's all in how it's used. Also, EC's sprite for Kiryu is amazing.
If done right (like in Yakuza) another great bonus is the players familiarity with the surroundings, making for an easier jump into the game or giving a small nostalgic feeling while playing. Playing games from companies that reuse assets for different games, not just sequels, gives a greater perception of coherency between the games and can lead to a much more enjoyable experience for the player
Some of the most popular Sonic fan games use models and animations from official Sonic games, but they feel better because of the way they're used!
You could use this theme for a game jam. Give everybody the same assets and challenge them to come up with something unique and interesting.
I think small variations can alleviate the underlying problem of samyness, which can arise when asset reuse within a game series or within a single game is rampant. Especially the Halo 1(PC) suffered heavily from copy paste stuff. Throwing in a graphity, some furniture or a plant could alleviate a lot of those problems.
In contrast this is what makes Portal 2 so great: not a single room feels the same, even though they are all constructed from the same elements.
This kind of samyness is also rampant in enemy types: When certain enemies always behave the same way and the player can obviously see the bare bones of the mechanics, then the interaction can become mechanical and automated. For some games this might be even desired (we dont play mario for the tragic tale of a goomba), but for others some random variations may make the game more believable.
In summary: Don´t focus on asset reuse, focus on the feeling of samyness.
Also carrentan map in call of duty was used on all call of duties with different graphics. Including modern warfare as Chinatown map
Was carentan in anything beyond cod4? Don’t think I read anywhere it was
Everything is usually a tradeoff. The removal or absence of certain features usually means the improvement or inclusion of other features, that the dev team thought was more important.
Overwatch goes 9 months without adding a new hero, but they make huge improvements to the game’s competitive ruleset, and balancing.
One word: Atelier
Love the Final Pam reference
4:50 Ironically, that is how it worked for early disney movies
So, I feel like there's a terminology issue where, because all the times I've heard asset flips complained about it's something more specific than what you're talking about. Specifically, rather than being the devs reusing their own assets, it's when devs make a cheap game that entirely or almost entirely uses assets that they didn't make. The apparent purpose of these is to make just enough of a game as cheaply as possible to try and make a quick buck.
I don't think asset reuse, as distinct from asset flips as described above, is a bad thing. Like any tool, it just needs to be used responsibly, which means either putting effort into working the pre-existing assets into a new game (which might involve tweaking elements to make it a better fit, or just exercising discretion in when and where you show them in the game so it fits), or using it for learning or interesting experiments, where the point isn't the complete work but seeing or demonstrating how a concept comes together. Basically, the second case applies to games that aren't meant to be, considered, or (maybe most importantly) marketed as a complete product.
I'd argue that even making a game out of assets you didn't create yourself isn't a terrible idea. The rub is that second part - making cheap, low-effort games.
No, no, not just scammy indie asset flips, what about developers remaking same FIFA, WWE or Call of Duty game without updating enough? That's an example of bad asset reuse.
The Yakuza series is maybe the best example of the of postive assets reuse!
Nice Strongbad mask at 2:46!
I love the feeling to familiarity those games bring when they re-use the characters from the other game they made. eg. mario cart
I'm a building architect in real life. Everything we do could be considered an asset flip. Today, every part of a building is a product created by a factory somewhere. While these parts are cut and shaped into the buildings you see around you, they're for the most part standardized parts. For a variety of reasons, including our own time, productivity, warranty, and profit, we try to use these products as intended. Anything truly custom in a building is immensely expensive and time consuming to create. I'll predict here that in a few years this will be true with media as well. This is already reflected in companies producing proprietary game engines, like Unreal. Soon, it will be game mechanics and 3D models and assets as well.
This is one of the fastest times ive found a new video
I feel that you are missing something really important, namely a definition of an asset flip.
Asset flips, as coined by Jim Sterling, is a game that is COMPLETELY built from assets that the developer did not create. Depending on the game, mechanics, maps ui and models may have been purchased/stolen from elsewhere and thrown into the game with no regards for a coherent design.
A quick read suggests that "Asset Flip" has two parts: extensive use of externally-developed assets, and shovelware-level quality. PUBG has been called an "Asset Flip", despite not being shovelware, which means people are either misusing or redefining the term.
So for instance Ori and the Blind forest vs Will of the wisps. Looks like artwork and maps were reused but they added new features that made the second one soo much better!
I sometimes wonder how many different individual poses of the EC host at the lectern have accumulated over the years. I can just imagine the hundreds and hundreds of Dans and Matts and Davids and other guests that have appeared on the show in the last decade.
Even your team can't resist drawing Final Pam, even though she was made in Fallout 4 rather than New Vegas, huh?
She's just that good.
Reuse of animation keyframes in early Ace Attorney games is the one to learn from 🙄
"Hey.. hey Jimmy.. Yeah, yeah, I know. But what we really need to you do right now is.."
"Recolor those skeleton there, yeah those ones in the other catacomb. You know the ones, right?"
Mario's clouds are just white bushes in the sky...