Yeah it only took them months of hearing that feedback before committing to changing it... Tough business decision, go under or make fundamental changes.
@@mgs85 ... You really think they took that decision two hours ago? Doesn't occur to you that art direction takes MONTHS to discuss, iterate and lock in?
i dont think so. they release it on early access because they are out of budget that is for sure. Early access is always a double edge sword ether it helps your game boost its popularity or make your game die early and that's what happen to this game having 100 players playing in a multiplayer FREE game is so bad i cant even think of a reason why they are still continuing making the game they should just count their loses and move on
Starcraft 1 looked insane when I saw it the first time as a kid, and I mean like the first couple of minutes even, and everything including UI has been like wow. And even recently when I started to watch more more Brood War casts from Artosis instead of SC2 I actually realized that Brood War remaster still looks better than SC2 to me. The only games that are close to this level have probably been Quake 1 and Diablo 1/2. Also Path of Exile 2 I think is close to that level of quality and I was really glad something like this is still possible, both in the sense that I can actually feel that and it's not just nostalgia and that games can still do that today instead of looking too generic
The best idea for the creep camps is that they should drop items you can store in certain structures and these items increase permanently unit's attributes like +15% movement speed, or +10% attack speed or +100HP etc. Some items can also unlock some special abilities like a similar ability to Blink or Stim etc. You can have more than one item in that structure so instead of pimping just your hero permanently you can pimp certain units permanently. And you can steel these items like relics from Age of Empires. So maybe workers or some different units can carry these items etc. That would lead to early and lasting tension because the fight for items makes the late game interesting. Runbys to steal these items would also be intriguing, as they could be lost halfway, etc. However, all buffs that only last for a certain amount of time are boring because they have no impact on the later stages of the game. Simply getting resources is also incredibly dull. The core of items in WC3 is precisely that they provide permanent effects. Why is that a good idea? Because it increases the diversity and replayability. Each match will feel more different and unique. So, but my ideas are so smart I should develop Stormgate and not these developers that make so many mistakes and are so uncreative. I like the developers, but I am disappointed that I have these ideas and not others.
In my opinion they are still going about this backwards. I think the statement that they were "still trying to differentiate our our (stormgates) space demons from other space demons" is very telling. They chose an extremely generic setting with little thought to the lore, backstory, or traits of a faction. They need to put some serious work into those and then let those inform the design of the characters, not the other way around. People make fun of some of the useless skills and lore based differences in SCBW but they really make the game and the universe feel alive. FG should take note and build a cool universe that feels lived in before trying to draw it out. It just feels like they don't understand the world that they've built a tiny fraction of. Gameplay is critical but people won't come check it out without that cool factor that makes it a universe that they want to explore.
Yes, this! Redesigning characters over a dead plot is like trying to paint your old car red to turn it into a Ferrari. What does a game consist of? It's an idea, story, gameplay, innovation, controls, and lastly, visuals. The foundation is already flawed, and redesigning the characters won't make the game better. The idea is dead, the plot is derivative, the gameplay is secondary, and yes, the visuals are awful.
Agreed. I think they're having a core issue of trying to "iterate" and "respond to feedback" for something that is lacking soul. It feels like they're taking this design-by-committee approach for a game that is a mashup of everything popular about WC3 and SC2 instead of being something by itself.
Funding is the big thing there. I don't think they have enough of it to completely re-design any aspect of their game. A few unit tweaks aren't too expensive. Remember when he said they're aiming to release in ~6-9 months time? A complete re-work doesn't fit into that schedule.
Stormgate revealed an unknown fact to everyone; RTS games were really only good because they existed in interesting worlds. Warcraft is Tolkien, and Starcraft is Warhammer 40k, the absolute cream of the crop of fantasy and sci-fi universes. Anything you make in these universes will be interesting by default. My theory is that it's not even possible to make a massively popular RTS game without placing it in a loved setting. That is the entire draw of it. They messed up.
I'm mostly indifferent to the redesigns (except Hedgehog), but most people clearly want more of the same, so the darker, Warhammer-like direction is fine. I do like that they're leaning into squares vs triangles vs round shapes for factions, though. I don't think visibility was an issue outside of some mirrors, but more faction identity is important.
I agree that the creep camps should be more intuitively useful, they are kinda random. I think if you look at a map with the creep camps unlabeled you should be able to reason out which ones do what. Like vision camps should be not too far from the main bases, resources are a more secluded destination, Heals on the centerline, etc. Each camp has a purpose and is situated for that purpose.
Camp positioning is already mostly that way in the maps that do exist. Healing camps are close to home for defense (or for snowballing a big lead if you take it from the opponent). Vision is the next closest, usually with each player having one. Resource and speed camps vary a bit more, but there's usually one close to home, and the others are farther out, depending on what the map is trying to promote.
Couldn't care less what the units look like tbh, I'd play an RTS if it was circles versus squares. As long as it has visually clarity and smooth mechanics. Units just need to be responsive. That's the big thing for me.
They are doing the one thing that might save it. Now release a FULL campaign/campaigns for one single purchase price of $60 for everything in the game. Saved.
Yeah, the campaign pricing model is a pretty big obstacle for sure. We already saw with Nova Covert Ops that campaigns released over time don't let the players get invested. On the brighter side you can play the whole campaign completely for free as long as you are fine playing it coop with a person who do owns the campaign I will still say the biggest make or break of the game is the editor, everything else is secondary.
It looks good. But I think maps have to be built with the new design in mind. The maps looks so pretty atm and i would like to see some demonic destruction in the maps to compliment their design
Visuals are important, because all these games still have a sizable normie audience that won't touch the 1v1 sweatfest. Look at the spike in popularity Dwarf Fortress got by adding graphics in the first place. Also it improves readability in combat. I understand entirely why people think visuals shouldn't matter, but this isn't about High-End Graphics, its about the visual appeal.
@BanjominWalker Yes. Did you compare the average player count before and after it got graphics? You may now rest, corrected. Did StarCraft Remastered boost the player count? Are you still with us?
Art team has done an incredible job! Making things distinct is very important! Definitely what natively was a pro with older games. Players will make good maps if you give them an editor
I mean, it's cool that they are listening to the feedback but there are so many issues with the game. Ask yourself the question, why would you rather play SG instead of Sc? Are there really new mechanics or gameplay that feel unique and fun? I sadly think no, and that is the big problem here...
The old art director didn't have what it takes to make a proper art direction for RTS. Simple as that. Allan knows what he's doing and what is needed for a proper look in RTS.
@@lambda6736 “Proper art direction for an RTS” is a stupid thing to say. There is no such thing. Art is inherently subjective. Telling other people that your art preferences have any objective value is always wrong, and always makes you look like a moron.
Stormgate’s art direction can change as often as the developers desire, but without significant gameplay innovations, the game risks feeling stagnant. To truly captivate players, it needs deeper mechanics and features that enhance replayability and excitement. Procedurally Generated Maps Introducing procedurally generated maps would revolutionize the scouting, making it more dynamic and engaging. This approach would also vastly increase replayability, as each match would present unique challenges and opportunities. Players enjoy adapting to fresh conditions rather than memorizing static, handcrafted maps. Age of Empires 2 serves as a perfect example: its map diversity, ranging from Arabia to Nomad or Gold Rush to Black Forest or Team Islands to Arena, requires entirely different strategies and skills, keeping gameplay fresh and exciting across thousand of matches. Evolving Economy and Resources A more diverse economy system could further enrich gameplay. Imagine resources with distinct mechanics: one tied to fixed points on the map, like gold or minerals, and another that players can harvest or generate anywhere, turning the entire map into potential strategic hotspots. Such a design would shift the focus dynamically during matches, ensuring that battles and critical moments happen in varying locations. Art-wise, resources should also stand out visually, adding aesthetic appeal and aiding gameplay readability. This diversity would make every match unique and create opportunities for more complex strategies, enhancing both player experience and spectator enjoyment. Buildable Walls for Strategy and Comebacks Walls are essential for creating strategic depth in RTS games. Cheap, high-HP walls allow for defensive maneuvers, buying time, and enabling dramatic comebacks-especially in team games, where protecting allies becomes vital. Walls also influence the flow of battles, shaping chokepoints and forcing creative unit compositions. The destruction of walls can spark tense, exciting moments across the map, keeping viewers and players alike engaged. Without such a tool, gameplay risks losing variability and tactical nuance. Aiming Beyond SC2: Learning from Age of Empires 2 Stormgate aspires to be a next-generation RTS, but to surpass Starcraft 2’s appeal, it must broaden its scope. While SC2 excels in fast-paced 1v1 matches, Age of Empires 2 boasts the highest active player base in RTS history due to its unmatched gameplay diversity and robust multiplayer modes (1v1 through 4v4). Even if one personally prefers SC2, the numbers don’t lie: Age of Empires 2 has found a formula that resonates with a wider audience. Stormgate can benefit from adopting and improving upon these mechanics without losing its identity. Procedural maps, diverse resources, and walls would not make Stormgate a clone of Age of Empires, but rather a richer game that combines the best elements of various RTS titles. Embracing Innovation The success of RTS games lies in openness to innovation. Just as Stormgate borrows successful elements like early scouting from Age of Empires and player abilities from C&C Generals and AOM, it should embrace new features that foster replayability, strategic variety, and accessibility. Procedural maps, walls, and an evolved economy are not constraints-they are opportunities to craft an RTS that stands out in the modern gaming landscape. By combining the best ideas from across the genre, Stormgate can deliver the diversity, excitement, and depth that players crave. To limit its scope would be to limit its audience, ensuring it remains a niche game rather than a genre-defining masterpiece. A broader, more adaptable vision will unlock Stormgate’s true potential. Listen to the nay-sayers who like Starcraft 2 will not improve Stormgate much. They want a game like Starcraft 2 and how successful this was and is we can see. It has less active players than SC 1 and Age of Empires 2. So they have to think about if they want to build a game for a niche or they really want to build the best next gen rts possible. There are still plenty of things that differentiate Stormgate from Age of Empires. Not only the futuristic setting but also the look and feel of the units, the better technical execution, and the improved unit responsiveness make the game still feel like a Blizzard RTS. By the way, Age of Empires, like Warcraft 3, features units with higher HP, which is one reason Age of Empires has a larger player base as Starcraft 2 and why Starcraft 2 is beyond its potential. Even the developers of Stormgate knows that and that is the reason why they increase the life of all units and structures compared to Starcraft 2. But here the good parts of Age of Empires doesn't stop. There is more like the benefits of procedural generated maps, walls and a bit more different economy. There are also good things for the economy in other games like C&C. The concept of power plants that work a bit like Pylons have a big potential to create interesting mechanics and decisions during one match. Don't just think about the mechanics in other games one by one, but also be creative. Change something in a new direction to the things you take from other games. To be successful, a game needs casual players, not just professional ones. The pros will come on their own if the game is successful with the broader audience-if players not only enjoy playing it themselves but also watching others play. Seeing the same revealed maps repeatedly, already knowing how they will be played (as is typical in Blizzard RTS games), becomes very boring for viewers. It lacks the variety and surprises that make for exciting spectator experiences. Everyone opposed to these changes should carefully consider their effects: fewer players, longer queue times in ranked matches, fewer tournaments, less support, and ultimately a less developed game. Is that what you really want? Then continue to be endlessly enthusiastic about Blizzard RTS games and ignore everything other RTS games have to offer. You can dislike Age of Empires, but you can't dislike walls or procedural-generated maps, because they offer to much for the exciting gameplay and the replayability and from which game these ideas come doesn't matter. There are lot of other games with procedural generated maps and buildable walls.
> There are lot of other games with procedural generated maps and buildable walls. Then go play them? Stormgate is always going to be more starcraft than it is Age of Empires. It seems like you love AoE so cant you just play that?
@@GreenZerg hahahahaha =) If we follow your argumentation you should go and play StarCraft 2 if you like it. There is no reason to be here, because they obviously don't want to build a new SC. They increased the HP of all units and structures unlike in SC2 and like how it worked for more than 25 years in Age (rts with most active players and therefore the new most successful rts), they have player abilities unlike in SC2 and like in C&C Generals and AOM, they have starting scout units like in Age, they have a resource that is more like ore from C&C Red Alert, Vanguard can construct structures with all workers at once like in Age and unlike in SC, they have heroes like in WC3, they have creep camps like in WC3. So obviously you should play another game. Thank you for listening to your own argument and deciding not to engage with Stormgate in the future anymore, as it's obviously not the right game for you. There are too many elements from other games in it. Thank you for giving me one of your arguments so that I can now respond to you properly. =) Do you have any valid argument? --> answer: no! Thank you for making it clear that there are no arguments against mine, and therefore my arguments remain valid. Therefore, thank you for confirming that I am right. You agree with me while trying not to agree. =) You didn't see that coming, and now you won't get out of this with reasonable arguments, which is why you're openly exposing your inability to present valid arguments-and it's obvious you don't have any, because you have shown the world that you have no knowledge about game design and your arguments proof that. Thank you for losing face in the process and for forfeiting any credibility or serious arguments. Now, you'll continue to take a few shots at me personally because, as mentioned, you have no valid points, and you'll fail miserably at that too. Thank you for making it so easy for me. =)
@@Red-wb5jj dude are you ok it's TH-cam not your dissertation. I like Starcraft but blizzard doesn't support it anymore so I'll play Stormgate. There's a new supported AoE game, that's the difference.
@@GreenZerg You are so boring. =) You do what I have said you will do. =) The discussion is not about if Age or SC. You can like both games. And Stormgate is a new game so you can add every new idea. So you can discuss abou ideas or you can be ignorant as now and think Stormgate have to be SC. So discuss about ideas or stop being useless while you have no arguments and just be a nay-sayer. You are not constructive.
They still need to throw out the writing team the brought on and completely redesign the campaign and characters. It's so morbidly bad, and that's going to be what gets players interested, not finnicky 1v1.
Devs need to find their way back to the driver's seat. if you let "gamers" tell you how to design your game then you're going to end up with a watered-down mass-appeal non-offender that tries to please everyone and really pleases no one. Game devs need to know what game they're making, make that game, and let the audience have it to enjoy and hate. If we all had AI companions making video games tailor-made for our individual preferences, we'd never discover anything new to enjoy. Don't make games like you're trying to respond to a customer's prompt, make a game you want to play.
Another problem is that half of these modern devs don't know how to actually make games anymore. All the advancements in modern engines and the shift to a more standardized selection like Unreal have made the new generation lacking in areas that would have been known as the basics 10-15 years ago.
Not this game. This game showed how little design chops they collectively had, and, it showed that there was no singular vision for the game. Feels like such a weird point to make about StormGate.
@@mgs85 any complaints about “the design” are dumb and should be ignored. bAdASs models don’t make good games and good games don’t require BaDaSs models. People whining about how infernals look are just outrage tourists being dumb.
Since when was listening to feedback considered "letting gamers tell you how to design" yall never had a dev team that actually listens to feedback? The point of the early access is to gather feedback so they could REFINE the game better, just because your blizzard won't listen to your complaints doesn't mean FG should be incompetent like them
Step 1: make god-awful pre-alpha unit designs and release it as an open beta Step 2: have everyone gat upset that it looks terrible Step 3: replace the terrible designs with some extremely mid Dota ripoff style designs, but call them edgy in comparison to the old designs Step 4: don't profit because you wasted all your money on having youtubers shill the new design, also on several million on some Disney voice actor no one cares about
I mean, best thing would just be to realize that you shouldn't listen to people who are going to love/hate a game based on how "cartoon-y" the aesthetics may be. Anyone like that is probably just a hate-tourist looking to spread misery. broodwar graphics are cartoons, did not stop that game from being popular. Fortnite, Deadlock, Marvel Rivals, all literally cartoons and very popular. Amongus was barely a game, but very cartoony and very popular in its time. Real people who play games don't love/hate them based on whether or not a model looks baDasS enough, that's something that outrage tourists larping as people who play games do.
@@BanjominWalker Broodwar graphics are not cartoony AT ALL. They were hyperrealistic in 1998. I remember because I was there. No one wanted the stupid asian anime style in RTS games.
@@BanjominWalker The art style of Starcraft 1 was intended to be grounded, realistic, and gritty. Its art was inspired by films such as Aliens and Starship Troopers, and the game was originally going to be a Warhammer 40K RTS. Even today, the graphics, story and feel of Brood War is vastly more realistic and "edgy" than anything StormGate is.
Yeah on it's face it would seem that way--- but the amount of work and dedication they put into building the engine to handle and control the units, pathfinding, netcode and stuff--- they did all the important and difficult work first. Changing models, and graphics is a sinch in comparison.
@@Codethe_Road Having the background tech, dev tools, and infrastructure also allows them to license those out to any studio trying to use Unreal for RTS. Almost all their innovation is in the background, so it's bit of a shame that they had to delay the map editor, and focus on 3v3 and aesthetics. It does make for a more well-rounded product, so I hope it works out.
The fact that they changed the art-style tells me the devs have no clear vision for their own game. Not a good sign regardless of any improvements going forward.
Let's be real here. To the seventy five weekly average players, according to SteamDB player charts, this doesn't matter at all. They're only playing because they've attached their personal identity to RTS games and the art doesn't matter to them. In terms of attracting a new audience, this game is probably just as dead as Crossfire Legion. There won't be any more venture capital rounds with these results.
Pre-release play numbers honestly mean very little, especially for a game that is actually in real development. The player count that matters is the amount of players it will have on release. For 99% of games 1.0 is the peak player count. So yeah, we gotta wait for the game to release before player count numbers will mean anything
Heck, a few people have said sc2 is dead since release, its just they were barely noticeable so it wasn't until sometime after LotV that more people started to notice and actually say the game is dead.
I've been a hardcore skeptical of the game (still am) but comments like this are pointless and malicious. You're not just not rooting for the game (totally fine) but you're actively hoping for it's failure. At least wait until another misstep to be like this, it's weird to look at an objectively good decision and try to tear it down.
I dunno man the fantasy/sci fi blend is really hard to succeed and be unique with. It's hard for players to like something when the game is a little bit of everything, so it feels bland. I remember when they announced they were making an RTS they could not decide on sci fi or fantasy. It seems like they still cant. This game would have been a hell lot cooler if it was regular humans+inventions vs Hell vs Heaven in a fantasy/medieval setting. Warhammer Fantasy but with humans, angels and demons. And make it look nice, like miniature figurines. Don't do the WoW style please..with weird cartoon shapes.. so tired of this art style.
Know what? Props to the Stormgate team. They take in feedback and change even pretty major things.
of course no one is playing their FREE to play game so they really need to change.
Yeah it only took them months of hearing that feedback before committing to changing it... Tough business decision, go under or make fundamental changes.
@@mgs85 Its also possible they already started it months ago but didn't want to make an announcement until concept art was finalized
@@mgs85 ... You really think they took that decision two hours ago? Doesn't occur to you that art direction takes MONTHS to discuss, iterate and lock in?
i dont think so. they release it on early access because they are out of budget that is for sure. Early access is always a double edge sword ether it helps your game boost its popularity or make your game die early and that's what happen to this game having 100 players playing in a multiplayer FREE game is so bad i cant even think of a reason why they are still continuing making the game they should just count their loses and move on
Infernal design was one of my biggest complaints. This is a huge plus for me.
The Celestials also suck. Every infantry unit is just a random nonsense. I like that crystal like phoenix plane tho.
Respect to Frost Giant. Being willing to make changes on this scale this late in development is rare and surprising. New designs look great!
Starcraft 1 looked insane when I saw it the first time as a kid, and I mean like the first couple of minutes even, and everything including UI has been like wow. And even recently when I started to watch more more Brood War casts from Artosis instead of SC2 I actually realized that Brood War remaster still looks better than SC2 to me. The only games that are close to this level have probably been Quake 1 and Diablo 1/2. Also Path of Exile 2 I think is close to that level of quality and I was really glad something like this is still possible, both in the sense that I can actually feel that and it's not just nostalgia and that games can still do that today instead of looking too generic
SC2 is too smooth, round and bouncy.
EA launch was rough, but StormGate seems to be making a comeback
The best idea for the creep camps is that they should drop items you can store in certain structures and these items increase permanently unit's attributes like +15% movement speed, or +10% attack speed or +100HP etc. Some items can also unlock some special abilities like a similar ability to Blink or Stim etc. You can have more than one item in that structure so instead of pimping just your hero permanently you can pimp certain units permanently. And you can steel these items like relics from Age of Empires. So maybe workers or some different units can carry these items etc. That would lead to early and lasting tension because the fight for items makes the late game interesting. Runbys to steal these items would also be intriguing, as they could be lost halfway, etc. However, all buffs that only last for a certain amount of time are boring because they have no impact on the later stages of the game. Simply getting resources is also incredibly dull. The core of items in WC3 is precisely that they provide permanent effects. Why is that a good idea? Because it increases the diversity and replayability. Each match will feel more different and unique.
So, but my ideas are so smart I should develop Stormgate and not these developers that make so many mistakes and are so uncreative. I like the developers, but I am disappointed that I have these ideas and not others.
In my opinion they are still going about this backwards. I think the statement that they were "still trying to differentiate our our (stormgates) space demons from other space demons" is very telling.
They chose an extremely generic setting with little thought to the lore, backstory, or traits of a faction. They need to put some serious work into those and then let those inform the design of the characters, not the other way around.
People make fun of some of the useless skills and lore based differences in SCBW but they really make the game and the universe feel alive. FG should take note and build a cool universe that feels lived in before trying to draw it out. It just feels like they don't understand the world that they've built a tiny fraction of.
Gameplay is critical but people won't come check it out without that cool factor that makes it a universe that they want to explore.
Yeah storm gate is all of two feet away from being an unreal engine asset flip on Android. They need an entirely different creative and art team
Yes, this! Redesigning characters over a dead plot is like trying to paint your old car red to turn it into a Ferrari. What does a game consist of? It's an idea, story, gameplay, innovation, controls, and lastly, visuals. The foundation is already flawed, and redesigning the characters won't make the game better. The idea is dead, the plot is derivative, the gameplay is secondary, and yes, the visuals are awful.
Agreed. I think they're having a core issue of trying to "iterate" and "respond to feedback" for something that is lacking soul. It feels like they're taking this design-by-committee approach for a game that is a mashup of everything popular about WC3 and SC2 instead of being something by itself.
Funding is the big thing there. I don't think they have enough of it to completely re-design any aspect of their game. A few unit tweaks aren't too expensive. Remember when he said they're aiming to release in ~6-9 months time? A complete re-work doesn't fit into that schedule.
Stormgate revealed an unknown fact to everyone; RTS games were really only good because they existed in interesting worlds. Warcraft is Tolkien, and Starcraft is Warhammer 40k, the absolute cream of the crop of fantasy and sci-fi universes. Anything you make in these universes will be interesting by default. My theory is that it's not even possible to make a massively popular RTS game without placing it in a loved setting. That is the entire draw of it. They messed up.
I'm mostly indifferent to the redesigns (except Hedgehog), but most people clearly want more of the same, so the darker, Warhammer-like direction is fine.
I do like that they're leaning into squares vs triangles vs round shapes for factions, though. I don't think visibility was an issue outside of some mirrors, but more faction identity is important.
This isn't even darker or more Warhammer like. There's less detail and far less body horror and gore. This is more unique than what came before.
what is that song playing in the background the first few seconds of video please?
I agree that the creep camps should be more intuitively useful, they are kinda random. I think if you look at a map with the creep camps unlabeled you should be able to reason out which ones do what. Like vision camps should be not too far from the main bases, resources are a more secluded destination, Heals on the centerline, etc. Each camp has a purpose and is situated for that purpose.
..basically, refer to WC3
Camp positioning is already mostly that way in the maps that do exist.
Healing camps are close to home for defense (or for snowballing a big lead if you take it from the opponent). Vision is the next closest, usually with each player having one.
Resource and speed camps vary a bit more, but there's usually one close to home, and the others are farther out, depending on what the map is trying to promote.
imagine if this rolled initially with the game and the sound was better. Looks good not gonna lie
as one of the ppl being very disappointed in the artstyle and lack of coolness this is a major upgrade :)
Couldn't care less what the units look like tbh, I'd play an RTS if it was circles versus squares. As long as it has visually clarity and smooth mechanics. Units just need to be responsive. That's the big thing for me.
Thats just you.
Art direction was my major concern, so this is fucking huge bro.
You don't care that the game is boring to play?
They are doing the one thing that might save it. Now release a FULL campaign/campaigns for one single purchase price of $60 for everything in the game. Saved.
You must be one of the 72 people left playing this game to be coping that hard.
Yeah, the campaign pricing model is a pretty big obstacle for sure. We already saw with Nova Covert Ops that campaigns released over time don't let the players get invested.
On the brighter side you can play the whole campaign completely for free as long as you are fine playing it coop with a person who do owns the campaign
I will still say the biggest make or break of the game is the editor, everything else is secondary.
I think this is fantastic news. also i kinda think its funny the vanguard are getting Hellions and Marauders with chainsaws
16:59 "Frank Klappy" I'm calling him Frank Klappy from now on!
That's a start!
Holy macro 👀 I feel like watching a new game. Lezz go!
It looks good. But I think maps have to be built with the new design in mind. The maps looks so pretty atm and i would like to see some demonic destruction in the maps to compliment their design
New Art Direction has upgraded to Acceptable status but If you compare it to SC1 or POE 2 its not even close
Very cool ideas, you should let the people at Frost Giant know. ;)
Visuals are important, because all these games still have a sizable normie audience that won't touch the 1v1 sweatfest. Look at the spike in popularity Dwarf Fortress got by adding graphics in the first place. Also it improves readability in combat. I understand entirely why people think visuals shouldn't matter, but this isn't about High-End Graphics, its about the visual appeal.
@@Pangora2 yeah so many normies playing dwarf fortress lmao
@BanjominWalker Yes. Did you compare the average player count before and after it got graphics? You may now rest, corrected. Did StarCraft Remastered boost the player count? Are you still with us?
@@Pangora2 “the game had more players that means normies are playing it”
Wrong and stupid
Hey Tasteless, did you see the new 3v3 Team Mayhem map? I'd like to hear your thoughts :)
big improvement
yeah I like the new art style
Still too cartoon-y for me. 😢
Art team has done an incredible job! Making things distinct is very important! Definitely what natively was a pro with older games. Players will make good maps if you give them an editor
I mean, it's cool that they are listening to the feedback but there are so many issues with the game. Ask yourself the question, why would you rather play SG instead of Sc? Are there really new mechanics or gameplay that feel unique and fun? I sadly think no, and that is the big problem here...
As a Stormgate skeptical, radical changes like this ARE a very good sign. It clearly shows that even it's biggest problems are potentially solvable
The old art director didn't have what it takes to make a proper art direction for RTS. Simple as that. Allan knows what he's doing and what is needed for a proper look in RTS.
@@milosmarinkovic2853 “what makes a good RTS is how the models look”.
Wow what a stupid opinion you’ve got there
He said "art for an RTS". You are miscontruing his comment.
@@lambda6736 “Proper art direction for an RTS” is a stupid thing to say. There is no such thing. Art is inherently subjective.
Telling other people that your art preferences have any objective value is always wrong, and always makes you look like a moron.
Stormgate’s art direction can change as often as the developers desire, but without significant gameplay innovations, the game risks feeling stagnant. To truly captivate players, it needs deeper mechanics and features that enhance replayability and excitement.
Procedurally Generated Maps
Introducing procedurally generated maps would revolutionize the scouting, making it more dynamic and engaging. This approach would also vastly increase replayability, as each match would present unique challenges and opportunities. Players enjoy adapting to fresh conditions rather than memorizing static, handcrafted maps. Age of Empires 2 serves as a perfect example: its map diversity, ranging from Arabia to Nomad or Gold Rush to Black Forest or Team Islands to Arena, requires entirely different strategies and skills, keeping gameplay fresh and exciting across thousand of matches.
Evolving Economy and Resources
A more diverse economy system could further enrich gameplay. Imagine resources with distinct mechanics: one tied to fixed points on the map, like gold or minerals, and another that players can harvest or generate anywhere, turning the entire map into potential strategic hotspots. Such a design would shift the focus dynamically during matches, ensuring that battles and critical moments happen in varying locations. Art-wise, resources should also stand out visually, adding aesthetic appeal and aiding gameplay readability. This diversity would make every match unique and create opportunities for more complex strategies, enhancing both player experience and spectator enjoyment.
Buildable Walls for Strategy and Comebacks
Walls are essential for creating strategic depth in RTS games. Cheap, high-HP walls allow for defensive maneuvers, buying time, and enabling dramatic comebacks-especially in team games, where protecting allies becomes vital. Walls also influence the flow of battles, shaping chokepoints and forcing creative unit compositions. The destruction of walls can spark tense, exciting moments across the map, keeping viewers and players alike engaged. Without such a tool, gameplay risks losing variability and tactical nuance.
Aiming Beyond SC2: Learning from Age of Empires 2
Stormgate aspires to be a next-generation RTS, but to surpass Starcraft 2’s appeal, it must broaden its scope. While SC2 excels in fast-paced 1v1 matches, Age of Empires 2 boasts the highest active player base in RTS history due to its unmatched gameplay diversity and robust multiplayer modes (1v1 through 4v4). Even if one personally prefers SC2, the numbers don’t lie: Age of Empires 2 has found a formula that resonates with a wider audience. Stormgate can benefit from adopting and improving upon these mechanics without losing its identity. Procedural maps, diverse resources, and walls would not make Stormgate a clone of Age of Empires, but rather a richer game that combines the best elements of various RTS titles.
Embracing Innovation
The success of RTS games lies in openness to innovation. Just as Stormgate borrows successful elements like early scouting from Age of Empires and player abilities from C&C Generals and AOM, it should embrace new features that foster replayability, strategic variety, and accessibility. Procedural maps, walls, and an evolved economy are not constraints-they are opportunities to craft an RTS that stands out in the modern gaming landscape. By combining the best ideas from across the genre, Stormgate can deliver the diversity, excitement, and depth that players crave.
To limit its scope would be to limit its audience, ensuring it remains a niche game rather than a genre-defining masterpiece. A broader, more adaptable vision will unlock Stormgate’s true potential.
Listen to the nay-sayers who like Starcraft 2 will not improve Stormgate much. They want a game like Starcraft 2 and how successful this was and is we can see. It has less active players than SC 1 and Age of Empires 2. So they have to think about if they want to build a game for a niche or they really want to build the best next gen rts possible.
There are still plenty of things that differentiate Stormgate from Age of Empires. Not only the futuristic setting but also the look and feel of the units, the better technical execution, and the improved unit responsiveness make the game still feel like a Blizzard RTS. By the way, Age of Empires, like Warcraft 3, features units with higher HP, which is one reason Age of Empires has a larger player base as Starcraft 2 and why Starcraft 2 is beyond its potential. Even the developers of Stormgate knows that and that is the reason why they increase the life of all units and structures compared to Starcraft 2. But here the good parts of Age of Empires doesn't stop. There is more like the benefits of procedural generated maps, walls and a bit more different economy. There are also good things for the economy in other games like C&C. The concept of power plants that work a bit like Pylons have a big potential to create interesting mechanics and decisions during one match. Don't just think about the mechanics in other games one by one, but also be creative. Change something in a new direction to the things you take from other games.
To be successful, a game needs casual players, not just professional ones. The pros will come on their own if the game is successful with the broader audience-if players not only enjoy playing it themselves but also watching others play. Seeing the same revealed maps repeatedly, already knowing how they will be played (as is typical in Blizzard RTS games), becomes very boring for viewers. It lacks the variety and surprises that make for exciting spectator experiences.
Everyone opposed to these changes should carefully consider their effects: fewer players, longer queue times in ranked matches, fewer tournaments, less support, and ultimately a less developed game. Is that what you really want? Then continue to be endlessly enthusiastic about Blizzard RTS games and ignore everything other RTS games have to offer.
You can dislike Age of Empires, but you can't dislike walls or procedural-generated maps, because they offer to much for the exciting gameplay and the replayability and from which game these ideas come doesn't matter. There are lot of other games with procedural generated maps and buildable walls.
> There are lot of other games with procedural generated maps and buildable walls.
Then go play them? Stormgate is always going to be more starcraft than it is Age of Empires. It seems like you love AoE so cant you just play that?
@@GreenZerg hahahahaha =)
If we follow your argumentation you should go and play StarCraft 2 if you like it. There is no reason to be here, because they obviously don't want to build a new SC. They increased the HP of all units and structures unlike in SC2 and like how it worked for more than 25 years in Age (rts with most active players and therefore the new most successful rts), they have player abilities unlike in SC2 and like in C&C Generals and AOM, they have starting scout units like in Age, they have a resource that is more like ore from C&C Red Alert, Vanguard can construct structures with all workers at once like in Age and unlike in SC, they have heroes like in WC3, they have creep camps like in WC3.
So obviously you should play another game.
Thank you for listening to your own argument and deciding not to engage with Stormgate in the future anymore, as it's obviously not the right game for you. There are too many elements from other games in it. Thank you for giving me one of your arguments so that I can now respond to you properly. =)
Do you have any valid argument? --> answer: no!
Thank you for making it clear that there are no arguments against mine, and therefore my arguments remain valid. Therefore, thank you for confirming that I am right. You agree with me while trying not to agree. =)
You didn't see that coming, and now you won't get out of this with reasonable arguments, which is why you're openly exposing your inability to present valid arguments-and it's obvious you don't have any, because you have shown the world that you have no knowledge about game design and your arguments proof that. Thank you for losing face in the process and for forfeiting any credibility or serious arguments. Now, you'll continue to take a few shots at me personally because, as mentioned, you have no valid points, and you'll fail miserably at that too. Thank you for making it so easy for me. =)
@@Red-wb5jj dude are you ok it's TH-cam not your dissertation. I like Starcraft but blizzard doesn't support it anymore so I'll play Stormgate. There's a new supported AoE game, that's the difference.
@@GreenZerg You are so boring. =)
You do what I have said you will do. =)
The discussion is not about if Age or SC. You can like both games. And Stormgate is a new game so you can add every new idea. So you can discuss abou ideas or you can be ignorant as now and think Stormgate have to be SC.
So discuss about ideas or stop being useless while you have no arguments and just be a nay-sayer. You are not constructive.
@@Red-wb5jj my bad bro glhf
They still need to throw out the writing team the brought on and completely redesign the campaign and characters. It's so morbidly bad, and that's going to be what gets players interested, not finnicky 1v1.
Im just not buying the whole pixar/overwatch type art style. It just infantilizes the whole thing. Grim dark is where its at.
Ahem concord.
Get dogs out of stormgate
>game isn't edgy enough
>game has you kill dogs
just make the creeps like in a mod, like dota
The core gameplay doesn’t seem interesting to me. Art style won’t change my opinion on that personally, maybe I am in the minority.
Devs need to find their way back to the driver's seat. if you let "gamers" tell you how to design your game then you're going to end up with a watered-down mass-appeal non-offender that tries to please everyone and really pleases no one.
Game devs need to know what game they're making, make that game, and let the audience have it to enjoy and hate. If we all had AI companions making video games tailor-made for our individual preferences, we'd never discover anything new to enjoy.
Don't make games like you're trying to respond to a customer's prompt, make a game you want to play.
Another problem is that half of these modern devs don't know how to actually make games anymore. All the advancements in modern engines and the shift to a more standardized selection like Unreal have made the new generation lacking in areas that would have been known as the basics 10-15 years ago.
Not this game. This game showed how little design chops they collectively had, and, it showed that there was no singular vision for the game.
Feels like such a weird point to make about StormGate.
@@mgs85 any complaints about “the design” are dumb and should be ignored.
bAdASs models don’t make good games and good games don’t require BaDaSs models.
People whining about how infernals look are just outrage tourists being dumb.
@@BanjominWalker Yeah, they should ignore that the game had
Since when was listening to feedback considered "letting gamers tell you how to design" yall never had a dev team that actually listens to feedback? The point of the early access is to gather feedback so they could REFINE the game better, just because your blizzard won't listen to your complaints doesn't mean FG should be incompetent like them
Step 1: make god-awful pre-alpha unit designs and release it as an open beta
Step 2: have everyone gat upset that it looks terrible
Step 3: replace the terrible designs with some extremely mid Dota ripoff style designs, but call them edgy in comparison to the old designs
Step 4: don't profit because you wasted all your money on having youtubers shill the new design, also on several million on some Disney voice actor no one cares about
I mean, best thing would just be to realize that you shouldn't listen to people who are going to love/hate a game based on how "cartoon-y" the aesthetics may be.
Anyone like that is probably just a hate-tourist looking to spread misery.
broodwar graphics are cartoons, did not stop that game from being popular. Fortnite, Deadlock, Marvel Rivals, all literally cartoons and very popular. Amongus was barely a game, but very cartoony and very popular in its time. Real people who play games don't love/hate them based on whether or not a model looks baDasS enough, that's something that outrage tourists larping as people who play games do.
@@BanjominWalker Broodwar graphics are not cartoony AT ALL. They were hyperrealistic in 1998. I remember because I was there. No one wanted the stupid asian anime style in RTS games.
@@Sinekyre14 saying that broodwar graphics were ever supposed to be “hyper-realistic” is the dumbest thing I’ve seen all day so good job.
@@BanjominWalker The art style of Starcraft 1 was intended to be grounded, realistic, and gritty. Its art was inspired by films such as Aliens and Starship Troopers, and the game was originally going to be a Warhammer 40K RTS. Even today, the graphics, story and feel of Brood War is vastly more realistic and "edgy" than anything StormGate is.
@@Sinekyre14 I mean, i want the stupid asian anime style. But it wasn't that either. It was some weird mobile-fortnite bs
nah nah, this game kinda sucks, I am done with it, I bought 4 copies for me and my friend, I regret.
Well done om buying a free game 4 times!
Sometimes, it feels like they're building a game backwards.
Yeah on it's face it would seem that way--- but the amount of work and dedication they put into building the engine to handle and control the units, pathfinding, netcode and stuff--- they did all the important and difficult work first. Changing models, and graphics is a sinch in comparison.
@@Codethe_Road Having the background tech, dev tools, and infrastructure also allows them to license those out to any studio trying to use Unreal for RTS.
Almost all their innovation is in the background, so it's bit of a shame that they had to delay the map editor, and focus on 3v3 and aesthetics. It does make for a more well-rounded product, so I hope it works out.
If you own Starcraft 2, no point playing an inferior version.
SC2 and Age of Empire 2 DE mercilessly crush StormGate and you know it.
The fact that they changed the art-style tells me the devs have no clear vision for their own game. Not a good sign regardless of any improvements going forward.
Still too shiny
Let's be real here. To the seventy five weekly average players, according to SteamDB player charts, this doesn't matter at all. They're only playing because they've attached their personal identity to RTS games and the art doesn't matter to them. In terms of attracting a new audience, this game is probably just as dead as Crossfire Legion. There won't be any more venture capital rounds with these results.
Pre-release play numbers honestly mean very little, especially for a game that is actually in real development. The player count that matters is the amount of players it will have on release. For 99% of games 1.0 is the peak player count.
So yeah, we gotta wait for the game to release before player count numbers will mean anything
hear hear
game looks like trash, waiting for DORF.
Stormgate is dead bro.
People have said the same about SC2 for half a decade if not longer.
Heck, a few people have said sc2 is dead since release, its just they were barely noticeable so it wasn't until sometime after LotV that more people started to notice and actually say the game is dead.
It's a shame they already shot their shot and nothing they can do now will undo the damage of releasing an unfinished, ugly, and terrible game.
Good thing they haven't released it yet then eh?
I've been a hardcore skeptical of the game (still am) but comments like this are pointless and malicious. You're not just not rooting for the game (totally fine) but you're actively hoping for it's failure. At least wait until another misstep to be like this, it's weird to look at an objectively good decision and try to tear it down.
Ded game is ded
Not a fan of Asian/anime art style.
I dunno man the fantasy/sci fi blend is really hard to succeed and be unique with. It's hard for players to like something when the game is a little bit of everything, so it feels bland.
I remember when they announced they were making an RTS they could not decide on sci fi or fantasy. It seems like they still cant. This game would have been a hell lot cooler if it was regular humans+inventions vs Hell vs Heaven in a fantasy/medieval setting. Warhammer Fantasy but with humans, angels and demons.
And make it look nice, like miniature figurines. Don't do the WoW style please..with weird cartoon shapes.. so tired of this art style.