Just some extra bits/corrections to save you writing them yourselves: Aluminium is a little lighter than that table says Eagle had also run a mag panel car. Gurney got rid of it after this. Lockheed-Martin was just Lockheed in 1966. I just used the modern name. Degrees kelvin isn’t a thing. Just kelvin
Composite DID exist and was in use in the aircraft industry. Aluminum honeycomb fiberglass has been around since the 50's. As for Magnesium the fire attendants would have tried but found out that water on a magnesium fire intensifies it! Chances are it wasn't to bad fire wise until they added water to the mix then BOOM, it adds oxygen and the chemical process releases a lot of heat. Fire retardant for magnesium was available back then but for a truck full would have been 100K back then! The French are not spending that money are they let alone thinking about it? John Surtees was no dummy and would have known this hence the refusal, remember he had no problem riding magnesium built motorcycles. As for the flammability of Chunks of magnesium it has a lot to do with the surface oxidation and heat present in the metal. Magnesium is also cast so you would think it would just go up in flames during the casting process but it doesn't. It is the surface oxidation that prevents the combustion. When cast we used to smother the patterns with R12 until the cast temp was down low enough that external heat was required to commence combustion. We also machined magnesium wheels on CNC lathes mostly Group A during my time (DJR, WR, Nissan/Gibson and many others) and they were also dangerous to machine as you are producing magnesium ribbon if not finer during the process. A normal Aluminum wheel would use a single 1/4" coolant outlet to promote tool life and finish. On a Mag lathe we used 3 wash pumps pumping coolant at 70 psi through 1" outlets. The coolant was also Glycol based. This kept the temp low enough and prevented exposure to air during the process when there was heat around as it was basically submerged. A sub contractor did still loose a lathe to fire though during my time and because the release of R12 became illegal to save the Ozone they didn't have a magnesium fire extinguisher and their sand bin had got wet.
Not being around at the time, I guess those at the time understood as we do now that motor racing is dangerous... just their measure of acceptable risk was different. It was what it was. I'd assume that everyone understood plenty well that the 150+ liters of fuel they started the race with was flammable and that concern was ignored. Also, the flammability of the Elektron wasn't exactly the problematic part of the 1955 disaster.
Happened again in 1970. Alejandro de Tomaso has built a magnesium chassis F1 car that Frank Williams entered for Piers Courage to drive. Courage had a good year in 1969 driving a Brabham for Williams, but Frank wanted his own bespoke car to enter. Courage crashed at Zandvoort and the result was another intense magnesium fire that was immune to being extinguished. The "good" news is that Courage may have been killed by a tire before the fire started.
@@jamesharrison3537 The Merc chassis was made of Magnesium, when it caught fire water was used to try and put it out, which made the fire even bigger. After the initial crash a lot of the casualties were smoke inhalation and burns.
Also worth mentioning that Titanium is *really* hard to weld. It reacts with open air at welding temperatures, so you have to either do it in a vacuum or blast it with inert gas to displace any oxygen.
@@paulnutter1713 I thought they had to use nickel steel skin for the Foxbat because they didn't have the titanium welding knowledge that the Americans soon did with the F-15
As a side note, Jo Schlesser's nephew Jean-Louis Schlesser also raced one F1 Grand Prix, in a Williams, being the replacement driver for Mansell. But he didn't end his race as well, because he crashed with Senna. Jean-Louis Schlesser is most known for his good endurance career and mostly then for his two wins in the Dakar rally and overall domination in cross-country rallying, building his own cars with success.
And Senna was leading And that ended up being the only Race of that Season that McLaren didnt win as well as the first time Ferrari won in Italy after Enzo Ferrari's death
He is an all time legend for taking out Senna. Ferrari scored a 1,2 the week of Enzos death. Plus if you lookat it, it doesnt look totally schlessers fault
@@JohnSmith-rw8uh I agree that Senna could have done more to prevent the accident, what I hated JSL for was him trying to gloat about it afterwards, even going as far as claiming he "made McLaren" because "He kept them hungry" No, you crashed into them and that's the only reason people remember you.
It was said that he went and apologised to Senna and McLaren. I've heard that said in a few different documentaries and other videos on TH-cam. Senna wasn't angry or anything like that after the race either, so I would say that is what happened.
As soon as I saw the thumbnail I knew which disaster you'd be talking about. It's a story that needs telling and thanks for your usual level of decency and respect. I remember reading that Surtees had not exactly been subtle about the stupidity of using magnesium in the manner it was, and that he'd threatened to walk away from Honda (and possibly F1) if they tried to make him drive the death trap. And this was a guy who'd won the equivalent level championship on a motorbike before racing cars - you _can't_ do that and be a nervous individual. (A few riders have been lost this year, including Chrissy Rouse in British Superbikes. He was an adorable maths teacher and great rider whose death absolutely devastated the paddock and fans. The TV presenter was in tears announcing it. I've not heard that before. Close, but not quite so devastated.) IIRC Surtees also took part in a number of road races including the Isle of Man TT, and whether you're a bloke or a gal, you need a _huge_ pair of brass ones just to ride that course, even at the back of the grid, especially before safety was "a thing". Even now it seems that there is at least one death a year there (there were two or three this year, and some serious injuries). Aidan, if you want a change from 4 wheels, the TT (or any road racing) will have a ton of stories waiting for you. The curse of the Dunlop family might be a place to start. A mix of riding genius, bravery and tragedy wrapped up in one family. Of the four racing members I know of, three were killed during races: the remaining one (Michael) lost his "King of the Mountain" Uncle Joey, his father Robert (? iirc - my mind has just drawn a blank! Someone correct me if necessary, please) during a race that his sons were in, and most recently, his brother William. Michael is still racing.
It wasn't the last time something like that happened, the use of fast burning composites in the Lancia Delta Group B car led to the deaths of Henri Toivonen and Sergio Cresto in the WEC in 1986 leading to the end of Group B
That car was also something that should have never raced, it was very flimsy in some areas (gas pedal went thru the floor and got stuck there, front end chassis bars were very fragile etc). Add to that the fuel tanks under the seats on the bottom of the cars, and using fuels that caused drivers to feel dizzy and have eye irritation. It was essentially 700 horsepower 4WD crematorium. Audi was the only one having safe car, as the car was build around mass-produced vehicle using its steel chassis with composite used only on the panels, and the fuel tank at the back.
""According to Davison, the brakes heated up until they inevitably combusted, exploding the front tire. The car was still smoking while it was being lifted onto a flatbed truck, but only after it put on a light show with vibrant green and orange flames. This was, understandably, the end of the 2020 Indy 500 for car 51 and Davison, which is a real disappointment considering this happened so early in the race. In an interview after the ordeal, Davison summed up the bizarre incident with a line most of us could take to heart, "It's still 2020.""
@@mikelevitt7365 That requires a deeper look. It would be catastrophic stoopidity if that wheel was actually made of something that could burn. Green and orange flames from what? Thats not an mg fire.
So that was easy. The master cylinder blew up and in order to successfully ignite brake fluid thats about 700 degrees or more leaving no chance it doesnt go off but thats a far cry from what it would take to light the wheel up so no wheel fire.
Loved the blackbird shout out. For anyone reading this who likes that era of planes, and it's parent company Lockheed Martin's Skunkworks, look for a book called "Skunkworks" by Ben Rich, he was in charge of that division after Kelly Johnson, and had a hand in designing the A-12/SR-71 (critically, the all important engine spike) and it was under his tenure that the F-117 stealth fighter came to be. A must read if you like aviation and want to read about engineering stories that surround these great planes...unexpectedly also has some good advice for business, when discussing Kelly's 15 rules. Regarding the subject of the video, it's telling that the standard procedure for a metal fire (like magnesium) in a place like a US aircraft carrier is to lob it overboard when possible, even a floating city equipped by Uncle Sam's war resources doesn't have any effective measure for metals on fire. Sheer negligence that this car raced after so many lessons had been learned.
Someone in another comment has confirmed the bit about shoving the plane off the deck before it melts it. The F18 has magnesium landing gear components.
@@AidanMillward A couple of points regarding the bit on the Blackbird. The original "Blackbird" was the Lockheed A-12. This is the aircraft built for the CIA (not the US Air Force) and it entered service before the SR-71. It was actually lighter and faster than the later SR-71. They look very similar but there are some differences if you know where to look. Titanium is a real pain in the ass to fabricate, mill, drill and weld. When Rockwell approached Lockheed about building the Space Shuttle from titanium, Lockheed told them to forget it as it was just too difficult. The Shuttle was made from traditional aluminium as a result. Finally, Lockheed-Martin did not come into exuistence until 1995. At the time the Blackbirds were being designed and built, Lockkheed and Martin were two stand-alone (and competing) manufacturers.
@@EricIrl Not on expert on this but on the titanium part what little I've read and seen also points to this. On that Skunk Works book, they mention how different batches of titanium behaved differently and they didn't know why, I won't spoil it but it was quite a random part of the manufacturing process that was causing issues. I also recall seeing a video from the V10 era about how they had an engineer over at BMW-Williams that would take the complex titanium exhausts and he would manually, gingerly hammer them into the right shape, it seemed incredibly tedious but IIRC that was the only way to do it at the time otherwise the part would get damaged and fail.
@@zeroelus Lockheed had to use special diamond tipped milling machines and cutters to work the titanium. Also, they couldn't mark the compnents with marker ink (as is common practice when cutting metal) because the chemicals in the ink would start corroding the titanium. It is a very, very difficult metal to work.
@@EricIrl Not to mention the toolkit needed to maintain the plane. None of the tools could contain nickel, as that would trigger galvanic corrosion on the Ti.
The moment he said magnesium my mind did go straight back to the chemistry kit I had as a kid and a cold shiver ran down my spine. They used to make flares out of the stuff.
Regarding non-European entties, don't forget the American built Scarab. It raced many years before the Honda. Not very well, but it was there. Otherwise good stuff, thanks R
Actually included this car in my college dissertation, genuinely taken aback by the history when I was doing the research. I had actually met John Surtees himself when I was a kid, wish I could have asked him about the whole affair.
the most insane part in this was that soichiro honda after the french grand prix disaster basically had another ra302 assembled with slight modifications and asked surtees to drive it at the italian grand prix, as if surtees didnt literally just see his teammate get cremated on track luckily they did end up withdrawing from the series as a constructor after surtees very expectedly wasnt thrilled at the idea of driving the ra302 himself
Aidan, this story is fascinating in the worst ways and the way you told it was amazing. However, I admit I had to double check and rewatch some segments to understand that the Honda France entry was a separate entry altogether. I had heard the story of Surtees refusing to drive the 302 after the test, then Honda using the 301 instead for that race. It didn't occur to me that the 302 was a separate entry (were they counting as the same constructor for scoring purposes?). Also, as a minor observation, the Grand Prix circuit used for 68 was still the one with the long stretches and the Gresil, Scierie curves, not the one with the left handers Autoroute and Côte. That said, thank you for the amazing content, as always
A less dense metal like magnesium is sometimes a better choice when bending or buckling is the expected failure mode, but otherwise, strength to weight is more important. Stiffness to weight is almost the same for all the structural metals. The SR-71 used Titanium for its heat resistance, not because it was better structurally.
Magnesium alloys always made wary when I worked in aviation. The landing gear components on the Hornet are made mostly of magnesium. They told us if it manages to catch fire it will burn so hot that throwing water on it will literally create an explosion as the water atomizes. What we were supposed to do if the gear caught fire was push the plane overboard before it melted through the flight deck.
Not specific to the Hornet, but I do recall seeing many cautionary videos of firefighters unknowingly dumping water on a metal part that's caught fire (I think I saw one for a car that had a magnesium transmission and they came in with the hose) and yes it basically explodes, similar to how you don't want to throw water to an oil pan that's caught fire in the kitchen, but even more dramatic.
I think it is important to note that this shocked Soichiro Honda to the point that Honda withdrew from building race cars for around 50 years, only building engines for other cars. Honda did make magnesium wheels afterward, though, even in production cars. To give you an idea of how insanely light they are, I mounted & balanced 4 tires for a customer on 4 magnesium 1985 Honda CRX rims. The bare rim could be held with 2 fingers, and even with the tire, easily lifted with one hand, open palmed. They were so light, my modern spin balancer did not even apply the motor brake after balancing each wheel/tire assembly. They were then installed on her 1991 Civic with manual rack & pinion steering, and the steering became ridiculously responsive and light as a feather! The heavier original steel wheels gave the car somewhat dangerous oversteer at highway speeds, but the magnesium wheels actually improved both high and low speed handling of the car, which tickled her to no end!
President Soichiro Honda may have been "shocked", but didn't they try to enter the same death-trap 302 in the following, Italian, Grand Prix? Once again Surtees demurred and in the event I don't think they raced it. I've studied and worked in Japan many years, and have always been impressed at what an incredibly stubborn people they are, often irrationally so. Hard-headedness is admired and interpreted as strength.
I remember my trade school tutor telling us this story. Also told us how Denny Hulme lost the tips of his fingers because he was on fire with methanol and the flames are invisible and no one realized why he was hopping around and slapping his body.
Aidan, a suggestion. It's not really a F1 thing but the story of the 1970 CanAm shadow is a good one. A titanium frame. At a race, maybe in Canada, going up a hill, it was so light that enough air got under the car that it flipped up and over. It was said that the frame, something like 22K or whatever was to light.
Bro, every time I have an idea I want to send to Aidan, he uploads it within the week. Really appreciate your work, man, you make road trips very relaxing!
Similar story to the 1964 Indy 500, where Dave MacDonald was told , supposedly by Jim Clark in a story that is widely repeated but may be urban legend, not to drive the Mickey Thompson car because it, too, was dubbed a "death trap". He lasted in the race exactly as long as Jo Schleeser, crashing on the second lap, and died in a similar fashion, being incinerated, taking Eddie Sachs along with him. The 64 race might be worth looking at, because, besides the tragedy, there were many interweaving stories involved, such as the melding of two racing cultures with the participation of Clark & Chapman in their all-out effort to win, and the many different characters involved like Foyt, MacDonald, Sachs, Mickey Thompson, who was himself an ex-World Land Speed record holder and some years later a murder victim in a still unsolved crime. It was a watershed moment in the history of racing and the beginning of the end of Indianapolis as a premier world racing event.
@@robbiddlecombe8392 Yes, immediately afterwards and for some years afterwards, but certainly not now or the last 25-30 years. It’s a shadow of the event it used to be and the roots of that decline were planted around 1964. It was short term gain and long term doom.
@@robbiddlecombe8392 It all depends on how you look at it. Looking from 2022, it seems to me that we lost our national top level racing series and traded it for a second-rate wanna-be Formula One. We had something unique and characteristic of our national racing history and traded it for a cheaper version of a European series that isn't even considered the equal (at least in superlicense points) to a trainer series in F2. To me, that is a gigantic loss. Indy is always going to draw a good crowd because of its novelty value and long history, but six months after the race ask anyone who is not a die hard fan of the series who won it, and you'll get no answers. You'd be lucky to get one out of a thousand to say "some Swedish guy". Once Indy 500 winners became household names, like Foyt, Andretti, Parnelli Jones, the Unsers. Once you had all the young drivers in the country, starting at the short tracks, aiming at Indy as their goal. No more. Now they're as shut out of the series as black baseball players were before Jackie Robinson, and NASCAR, as much as a freak side show as that is, is our national racing series. Instead of it being the ultimate goal for drivers, it's a fall back plan for guys who can't buy their way into Formula One. And it all started when they decided to abandon American cars and American drivers for imitation Formula cars, and that began in 1963-64-65. To me, IndyCar died in the early 80's, when we saw Sneva and Johncock win, with it already becoming clear that we'd never see their like again in victory circle at Indy. Nobody figured that if we did, it would be Jeff Gordon & Tony Stewart in a Winston Cup car.
I learn something from every one of your vids, you're brilliant, my dude. Thank you. The same might not be said for Porsche, who switched to Mg crankcases for their '74 to '77 engines. I don't think an original 2.7 litre engine exists.
yeah, lets make a an extreme race car filled with flammable hydrocarbons out of a highly flammable material wich is practically impossible to extinguish. great idea!
This one's outside my usual area of expertise, but I believe the reason large blocks of magnesium don't ignite nearly as easily as thin panels and strips is because of heat transfer. Metal transfers heat very easily compared to air, so while the temperature for ignition is the same for both forms of magnesium, a big block being heated will sink the heat into itself much faster than a thin piece of the same mass- this would result in a greater amount of heat being necessary to ignite the block itself, but small pieces breaking off such as in an impact will still spark up and burn away.
Schlesser would have died in that fire regardless of what the car was made from. (Magnesium is a problem, not so much for the driver as for the fire-fighting crews, because only a truckload of sand can snuff the flames once it ignites.) The problem with the RA302, and the reason Surtees would not drive it, was that it was too light, and almost impossible to keep on the track at high speed. In his own words, "it was impossible to drive any distance with it performing as it should." It was poor handling, not the magnesium construction, that led him to call it a "death trap." People focus on the fire, for obvious reasons, but it was the handling of the car that was the problem. Poor handling was the reason Schlesser qualified 16th (out of 18 cars), and probably the reason he crashed after a single lap, with a full tank of fuel, in the actual race. Magnesium needs a very hot fire to ignite, and a driver trapped in such a fire won't have time to worry about what else is going to burn.
I used to work in a factory where i had to grind magnesium castings for prep before painting. If the sandpaper hit any impurities in the castings, i was awarded a tiny fireworks show. Dangerous as heck... Good salary though.
I would love to drive a watered down version of one of the cigar era F1 cars on a twisty back country road. One of my bucket list things, probably wont ever happen realistically
I work with magnesium every day. There are ways to manufacture it so it cannot ignite from the temperatures seen in fuel fires and brake friction. I'm sure Honda did their research on this. The one thing you can't easily prevent is sparks created from direct contact on cement. A control arm failure could easily cause that.
Years ago when I was an SCCA corner worker at Road America, the IndyCar folks did training for us on how to address alcohol and magnesium fires. You can't se the alcohol burn, just the grass turning black. At the time they used a bucket of sand to put out the magnesium fire as regular fire extinguishers or water didn't work. I think we have a similar issue today with the lithium EV batteries where fire departments often don't have the right equipment. And we saw the transport ship catch fire and sink full of VW, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley cars.
Interesting fact: NASCAR actually uses magnesium as the material for the firewall located between the engine and the driver's feet. Magnesium is actually quite good at not catching fire if it's made thick enough. Of course, Honda didn't seem to appreciate this...
The problem wasn`t magnesium or air cooling but the inexperience of Schlesser and bad weather. He did slide from the track on a corner and hit the earth bank. He got fatal injuries hitting the bank. The side fuel tank also exploded due the inpact (the fuel exploded due the compression like in diesel engine, there was nothing to do with hot engine) and made the car burn.
I remember my first year Chemistry lessons and experiments with Magnesium back in 1960, very explosive! And didn’t the ‘Big Wing’ thing start with Jim Hall and his Chaparral Can Am cars?
Great stuff as always, man. When you said "Old Man Chappers" it gave me a mental image of Colin Chapman as a villain from Scooby Doo. "I would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling track marshals!" Or something to that effect.
I would have been about 18 when this happened, and remember it well! One of my school-mates was a real petrol-head, and used to get the American car magazines sent over here to Blighty. I can't remember if it was in Road & Track or Car & Driver, but I vividly remember seeing a picture of the burning Honda just after the accident. All you could see was a blue white sphere with four wheels sticking out! It was like staring into the sun, but without the red tinge. It was horrifying! I didn't know the background to the accident until this video, so thanks for filling in the gaps!
Magnesium burns hotter under water. It burns hot enough to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, adding fuel to the fire. As a firefighter iv had some experience with burning cars. Magnesium is used in a few of the steering shaft components. It’s kinda nice because once it ignites it will burn a hole through the floorboards and open a drain hole to drain the water out of the car.
The 1970 Williams-De Tomaso in which Piers Courage died was also partially made of aluminum, and it also went up in flames. Courage had probably already been killed by a wheel that had hit him in the head, though.
Dad was in Grissom’s test pilot class. All the test pilots petitioned the then NASA group to eliminate the 100% oxygen Apollo capsule atmosphere. Another gas would have added weight and so the request was denied and Grissom, White and Chaffe were incinerated.
So there I was, 16 years old, with a gouge in my magnesium side case on my Honda Elsinore's side cover. " HEY, I can use that hand grinder and just kind of buff it down!" It took about 3 seconds. Brighter than the sun, I swear.
Dad taught Industrial Arts 789th grade--Taught small gas engines-Old mower decks made of magnesium would be broken up for demo purposes. I still have a gallon can full-at 60 year old.--light up for the 4th july--kids love it--just don,t look to much or burn your retinas out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks dad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some Austin maestro cars had a magnesium gearbox case and as an ex firefighter I can tell you they were very spectacular to try and extinguish. Basically play water on the rest of the car while the magnesium burns out.
Having done some contract work (something much more boring than autoracing) for a different japanese car company, not at all surprising that senior management would overrule safety concerns affecting non-japanese employees.
I wonder if you’ll end up talking about the ‘Hail Melon’ by Ross chastain to make the championship 4 in Nascar and if you have ever tried anything similar in assetto corsa
Honda being 1st non Euro team? Should I mention Jack Brabham about now? And magnesium burns SO hot that the addition of H2O only adds to the intensity because it separates the H and the O to create both a fuel and an oxidiser.
@@OoVECTORMANoO I thought the Repco-Brabham cars raced in the green and gold colours of Australia rather than British Racing Green? I mean I've never heard the Brabham described as being painted in British Racing Green until you mentioned that the cars were entered as British.
Hmmm looks like I might have some homework to do. I won't argue semantics like Australian owner, designer, engines just yet before I do some reading. 😁😉❤️✌️ Oh and thanks for being so respectful in your comments. It's part of the reason I subscribe.
@@TassieLorenzo British racing green isn’t a set colour, really. Aston’s green has blue in it, Jaguar and Bentley have a really dark green and Lotus is the green everyone associates with it.
May be wrong, but the relative safety of modern magnesium hubs isn't due to the size of the chunks of metal...my understanding is that they are an alloy (a mix of metals) rather than pure magnesium.
I'm glad I missed that race. I saw Monaco, Spa, Germany, and Italy that year, as well as the F2 race at Hockenheim when JC was killed. I should look for the photos.
Yes, magnesium will burn quite readily in air once ignited. It will also burn under water so no good hosing it with water. Aluminium also burns readily in air IF and only IF its oxide coating is removed first. Aluminium readily forms its own oxide coating which then prevents further oxidation. Beryllium is about as light as magnesium but its dust through abrasion or machining is highly toxic needing very special dedicated machining facilities and then in products where it can't fragment. Upside is its very low coefficient of thermal expansion. Titanium will also burn in air in the right circumstances. Notionally about as strong as steel but but with an SG of 4.5 vs. 7.85 for steel. Epoxy carbon composite volume for volume is notionally as strong as steel but one third the weight. However as Rolls Royce found out during development of the RB 211 when wet it then becomes notch sensitive. The smaller the dia. of the carbon fibres in epoxy carbon increases the strength BUT fibres small than 10 micron in dia. can permeate the human skin and migrate throughout the body, which is why industrial carbon fibres has filaments 10 microns or bigger. So called high modulus epoxy carbon uses filaments smaller than 10 microns so if a fighter jet crashes near you it may well contain both beryllium and high modulus epoxy carbon so best to keep well away.
Yes, surface area jas a lot to do with the danger. A large wheel has a lot of mass to its surface area. To burn a material it has to reach a certain temperature.... but a large mass of a good heat conductor draws heat energy from the surface thus lowering the temperature at the air-metal interface. The sparks you mentioned have a very small mass & are easily heated above the autoignition temp; the high surface area to volume ratio exposes a large percentage to oxygen. A thin panel once the surface reaches ignition temp (or melts) hasn't any mass to absorb heat. That's why a 200 lb slab of magnesium poses a low explosion risk whereas the same amount in tiny particles ("dust") suspended in air would be an extreme explosion risk.
Have to say Aidan. Love your work picked it up during lockdown. I really like your 20 min videos as they are great to listen to at work. Keep up the good work brother
Actually big chunks of magnesium will burn, but it requires intense heat and some time to heat it to the point of ignition. An example of this was the WW2 B-29 bomber. The engine would overheat and catch fire. The crankcase was magnesium and would begun to burn. It is virtually impossible to extinguish, so many were lost due to the wing departing.
I remember reading online about folks who’d hang out in the desert for festivals, and at one of these every year they’d light up a magnesium engine block. You have to crack off the outer layer so you can get to the ignitable inner metal.
As soon as I read magnesium I thought it was sketchy, but when I saw that Jo Schlesser would be driving it.. I knew the anecdote about Ligier but not the exact circumstances of Jo's death.. Also thanks for explaining the thing about the magnesium wheels, I never understood why people would put such a flammable substance into a y parts of a car. Heard about magnesium piston heads too, I guess it must be the same phenomena. I had the magnesium ribbon experiment too when I was in middle school, it was awfully bright. And apparently this was used in powder to make the early "flashes" that when they took pictures back in the early 20th century. Still, I absolutely don't understand how some people would be thinking it'd be absolutely fine building a car out of that..
the other reason the hubs don't catch fire is not jut the mass of mag but the fact that it will be "mag_ally" a magnesium aluminium compound that actualy makes it a hole lot stronger than either of the individual components on its own coupled with modern heat treatment an forging process its able to be quite well used in very high stress environments. it can be found in use in more every day applications all be little on the high end such as mountain bike/motor cross front forks alloy wheels. but it does still carry the same risks in the event of a fire as if it get hot enough melt the compound then its likely to burn off the mag fairly quickly. the other bit of sicenc that goes along with this is the way mag burns its effectively a self oxidising chemical fire along with that its also reactive to water so putting watter on the fire will have only made the problem worse on 2 fronts it will have reacted to the water an them been hottenough to brake the bonds to the oxygen an hydrigon fuelling the fire further this is why u see powder an CO2 foam being used now as it is designd to take the heat an the oxygen out of the equation an is stable an non reactive even under extreme heat.
There are videos on TH-cam of Schlesser's Honda after it crashed, and the resultant firefighting effort. But I wouldn't recommend seeing them if you are in any way squeamish or easily upset. The fact they tried to put out a magnesium fire with water is alarming to say the least. I read an eyewitness report on the Autosport Nostalgia forum that said the Honda landed upside down so hard after it flipped, that Schlesser may well have been killed before the fire started. We can only hope.
I'd say given the near fatal injuries sustained to A.J. Foyt in a more secure stock car at least for a flip given the roll cage at Riverside that Schlesser was almost certainly killed as (a. the embankment Schlesser went up was steeper, (b. Schlesser's head and neck were exposed, (c. Schlesser rolled more times than Foyt, (d Schlesser landed upside down, and (e. Foyt was declared dead and only revived by Parnelli Jones removing a clod of dirt from Foyt's mouth. And there was a lot more things going Foyt's way at Riverside for it to almost kill him.
Long ago, in a universe far away, I did flagging and corner work. We trained with professional firefighters. One of thierbwar stories was that the army gave them a damaged helicopter to practice firefighting on. They put it in a field, got all the engines ready, deployed the hoses, and light it. It was completely consumed before they were able get any extinguishing deployed on it. Yes, the frame of the helicopter was magnesium. We learned to respect the magnesium parts of the cars we responded to.
That's life. We learn and move on but must not judge decisions made in the distant past on knowledge available today. It's very, very easy to appear wise with the benefit of hindsight.
11:58 It sounds very doubtful that brakes would get hot enough to ignite the wheels. OTOH a wheel scraping against something like concrete might actually create sparks.
The 1967 F1 Gurney Eagle was all magnesium sheet. Dan Gurney refused seat belts for this reason. So the Honda was not the first use. Modern magnesium parts use less flammable alloys. You have to ignite a powder or chips to see those alloys burn. Most racing series today use magnesium wheels, including F1, MotoGP, NASCAR, DTM and Indy. In the early days of photography, flash powder was magnesium and later flash bulbs were magnesium wool. But that was pure magnesium. The 1935 Bugatti Aerolithe was all magnesium sheet. It can be welded under inert gas.
I've seen a number of times in NASCAR races where wheels caught on fire. Not a common occurrence, but it has happened on occasion. A memorable one was a race in Charlotte where one of Jeff Gordon's wheels caught fire, and it was impressive because it was at night. Usually happens because of a break failure, the breaks catch fire, then the wheel catches fire.
All three Drivers with the first name Jo were killed driving. I do believe that if I was a driver in that time I’d either quit racing or change my name!
Call it faith in their own technical genius, call it corporate arrogance, but sometimes Honda just presses on. The NR500 GP bike was another prime example.
As a kid playing around with a strip of magnesium* and wanting to see it burn, I found that I could light it with the kitchen gas stove flame, but only if I thinned out the end of the strip by hammering it. So yeah: Thick magnesium is fairly safe, thin magnesium not so much. *Why don't Americans call it "magnesinum"?
Watching this for the second time, and I'm reminded of the thing that struck me the most in the first half of the video: John Surtees said the car was unsafe. John Surtees was also considered a madman by the rest of the grid for being a motorcycle racer before joining the four-wheeled grid. If John Surtees didn't want to drive it, it must have been undrivable.
Very interesting. I didn't know. Hownstuoid of Honda and those who agreed/collaborated to build a racing car from sheet magnesium. At least fighter jets have ejector seats!
Watching this in my car at work during lunch and it’s raining and at 13:20 ish when he said another sudden down pour it started pouring rain crazy I didn’t know TH-cam had immersive environments
Off subject - the incredulous builders of our helicopters in Vietnam, made the decks of the choppers out of magnesium - if you were wounded and picked up on a dust off, chances of being burned alive from heavy fire in the LZ were quite high. The hubris of people in charge of building a specialized vehicle is criminal. Our Memorial has 56,000 names on it.
I won't disagree, but in my time as a follower of F1, we lost Jules Bianchi. Maybe not yet as beloved by fans as the drivers you list, but Jules' life-ending collision with the crane in Suzuka resulted in at least 2 major changes in F1: the virtual safety car and the Halo. Since then, we've seen multiple accidents where the Halo unquestionably saved the driver from critical injury or death. Verstappen landing atop Hamilton is one, and certainly Grosjean's miracle survival after going under a fence. It's unknown what effect the VSC has been on safety, but it has surely changed pit strategy!
A little fun fact about titanium: Aston Martin engineer, in one of Hagerty's video, told a story about how they got interrogated by ministry of defence. Valkyrie required lots and lots of lightweight materials, including titanium. So much titanium, in fact, that MoD actually asked Aston Martin 'What on earth were you guys doing with that many titanium, last time we needed so much titanium USA is making SR-71 Blackbird.'. Good thing Aston already got Valkyrie prototype to show them what the heck they were making.
"Interesting" bit of information: The temperature of a magnesium fire (2200C) is the temperature at which water begins to dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen and oxygen then burn and go back into water, but releases enough energy in that process to cause more water to dissociate. It's why you can't use water to put out a magnesium fire. You're actually feeding the flames unless you can add so much water so quickly that you can immediately cut off the magnesium flame from keeping the burning hydrogen from continuing.
In the late 70s at a Camel GT weekend at Road Atlanta, someone burned a magnesium VW engine in the infield near Turn 5. It wasn't THE BOG at Watkins Glen, but it was full of pagan rituals!
hello, i'm writing fropm France, at this 1968 grand prix i was standing along the track just at the place of this terrific crash, and i'have stil a photography of this accident and of this poor Jo Schlesser burning in his car, an horrific picture,
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 85 | คู่เอก "ยอดเหล็กเพชร vs ผึ้งหลวง"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qq_19bnnxEo/mqdefault.jpg)
Just some extra bits/corrections to save you writing them yourselves:
Aluminium is a little lighter than that table says
Eagle had also run a mag panel car. Gurney got rid of it after this.
Lockheed-Martin was just Lockheed in 1966. I just used the modern name.
Degrees kelvin isn’t a thing. Just kelvin
Composite DID exist and was in use in the aircraft industry.
Aluminum honeycomb fiberglass has been around since the 50's.
As for Magnesium the fire attendants would have tried but found out that water on a magnesium fire intensifies it! Chances are it wasn't to bad fire wise until they added water to the mix then BOOM, it adds oxygen and the chemical process releases a lot of heat. Fire retardant for magnesium was available back then but for a truck full would have been 100K back then! The French are not spending that money are they let alone thinking about it? John Surtees was no dummy and would have known this hence the refusal, remember he had no problem riding magnesium built motorcycles.
As for the flammability of Chunks of magnesium it has a lot to do with the surface oxidation and heat present in the metal. Magnesium is also cast so you would think it would just go up in flames during the casting process but it doesn't. It is the surface oxidation that prevents the combustion. When cast we used to smother the patterns with R12 until the cast temp was down low enough that external heat was required to commence combustion. We also machined magnesium wheels on CNC lathes mostly Group A during my time (DJR, WR, Nissan/Gibson and many others) and they were also dangerous to machine as you are producing magnesium ribbon if not finer during the process. A normal Aluminum wheel would use a single 1/4" coolant outlet to promote tool life and finish. On a Mag lathe we used 3 wash pumps pumping coolant at 70 psi through 1" outlets. The coolant was also Glycol based. This kept the temp low enough and prevented exposure to air during the process when there was heat around as it was basically submerged. A sub contractor did still loose a lathe to fire though during my time and because the release of R12 became illegal to save the Ozone they didn't have a magnesium fire extinguisher and their sand bin had got wet.
@@dazaspc good old fibreglass. Used on gliders but not really seen on an f1 car until a bit later after this.
@@AidanMillward F4 phantom glides pretty quickly🤣
@@dazaspc all planes are gliders if the engines pack in 🤔
Phenolic composite has been around since the 1920s.
It's mind-boggling how this happened 13 years after the 1955 LeMans disaster also involving a car made of magnesium and Honda thought nothing of it.
Not being around at the time, I guess those at the time understood as we do now that motor racing is dangerous... just their measure of acceptable risk was different. It was what it was. I'd assume that everyone understood plenty well that the 150+ liters of fuel they started the race with was flammable and that concern was ignored. Also, the flammability of the Elektron wasn't exactly the problematic part of the 1955 disaster.
Happened again in 1970. Alejandro de Tomaso has built a magnesium chassis F1 car that Frank Williams entered for Piers Courage to drive. Courage had a good year in 1969 driving a Brabham for Williams, but Frank wanted his own bespoke car to enter. Courage crashed at Zandvoort and the result was another intense magnesium fire that was immune to being extinguished. The "good" news is that Courage may have been killed by a tire before the fire started.
To be fair, through the 60s and 70s there were many, many cars were fielded that had Magnesium alloy parts, such as the Porsche 917.
I wasn't aware of magnesium being a problem in 1955 LeMan accident. I thought the biggest problem was the car going through the crowd?
@@jamesharrison3537 The Merc chassis was made of Magnesium, when it caught fire water was used to try and put it out, which made the fire even bigger. After the initial crash a lot of the casualties were smoke inhalation and burns.
Also worth mentioning that Titanium is *really* hard to weld. It reacts with open air at welding temperatures, so you have to either do it in a vacuum or blast it with inert gas to displace any oxygen.
I learned that from researching the development of the SR-71!
not if you know how to weld ti....awkward to weld, not difficult
@@paulnutter1713 I mean with the equipment of the time
@@WynnofThule fair comment.... and the knowledge, the ruskis knew more about welding ti than the west at that period
@@paulnutter1713 I thought they had to use nickel steel skin for the Foxbat because they didn't have the titanium welding knowledge that the Americans soon did with the F-15
As a side note, Jo Schlesser's nephew Jean-Louis Schlesser also raced one F1 Grand Prix, in a Williams, being the replacement driver for Mansell. But he didn't end his race as well, because he crashed with Senna. Jean-Louis Schlesser is most known for his good endurance career and mostly then for his two wins in the Dakar rally and overall domination in cross-country rallying, building his own cars with success.
And Senna was leading
And that ended up being the only Race of that Season that McLaren didnt win as well as the first time Ferrari won in Italy after Enzo Ferrari's death
He is an all time legend for taking out Senna. Ferrari scored a 1,2 the week of Enzos death. Plus if you lookat it, it doesnt look totally schlessers fault
@@JohnSmith-rw8uh I agree that Senna could have done more to prevent the accident, what I hated JSL for was him trying to gloat about it afterwards, even going as far as claiming he "made McLaren" because "He kept them hungry"
No, you crashed into them and that's the only reason people remember you.
It was said that he went and apologised to Senna and McLaren. I've heard that said in a few different documentaries and other videos on TH-cam. Senna wasn't angry or anything like that after the race either, so I would say that is what happened.
A cobblestone hairpin--we should bring that back in F1 now. Would improve the entertainment factor immensely.
As soon as I saw the thumbnail I knew which disaster you'd be talking about. It's a story that needs telling and thanks for your usual level of decency and respect. I remember reading that Surtees had not exactly been subtle about the stupidity of using magnesium in the manner it was, and that he'd threatened to walk away from Honda (and possibly F1) if they tried to make him drive the death trap. And this was a guy who'd won the equivalent level championship on a motorbike before racing cars - you _can't_ do that and be a nervous individual.
(A few riders have been lost this year, including Chrissy Rouse in British Superbikes. He was an adorable maths teacher and great rider whose death absolutely devastated the paddock and fans. The TV presenter was in tears announcing it. I've not heard that before. Close, but not quite so devastated.)
IIRC Surtees also took part in a number of road races including the Isle of Man TT, and whether you're a bloke or a gal, you need a _huge_ pair of brass ones just to ride that course, even at the back of the grid, especially before safety was "a thing". Even now it seems that there is at least one death a year there (there were two or three this year, and some serious injuries).
Aidan, if you want a change from 4 wheels, the TT (or any road racing) will have a ton of stories waiting for you. The curse of the Dunlop family might be a place to start. A mix of riding genius, bravery and tragedy wrapped up in one family. Of the four racing members I know of, three were killed during races: the remaining one (Michael) lost his "King of the Mountain" Uncle Joey, his father Robert (? iirc - my mind has just drawn a blank! Someone correct me if necessary, please) during a race that his sons were in, and most recently, his brother William. Michael is still racing.
It wasn't the last time something like that happened, the use of fast burning composites in the Lancia Delta Group B car led to the deaths of Henri Toivonen and Sergio Cresto in the WEC in 1986 leading to the end of Group B
Aidan did a great video on Group B before TH-cam struck. Don't know if he's still got it listed. If so, it's a very interesting watch. Sad, though.
I thought a dodgy roll cage and unsafe exposed fuel tanks caused the problem, but the composites burnt away rather than leaving a metal coffin
That car was also something that should have never raced, it was very flimsy in some areas (gas pedal went thru the floor and got stuck there, front end chassis bars were very fragile etc). Add to that the fuel tanks under the seats on the bottom of the cars, and using fuels that caused drivers to feel dizzy and have eye irritation. It was essentially 700 horsepower 4WD crematorium. Audi was the only one having safe car, as the car was build around mass-produced vehicle using its steel chassis with composite used only on the panels, and the fuel tank at the back.
WEC ?
It’s very telling when Lancia still fielded the 037 for the Safari Rally instead of the Delta S4.
11:51 James Davison's magnesium wheel caught fire at the 2020 Indy 500, which was honestly quite fascinating and rare!
Yeah, must have got stupid hot or it burned a top layer or something cos it's amazing how that actually happened.
@@AidanMillward From the vidoes available it seems like brake caliper got stuck - disc glowing yellow before the fire starts...
""According to Davison, the brakes heated up until they inevitably combusted, exploding the front tire. The car was still smoking while it was being lifted onto a flatbed truck, but only after it put on a light show with vibrant green and orange flames. This was, understandably, the end of the 2020 Indy 500 for car 51 and Davison, which is a real disappointment considering this happened so early in the race. In an interview after the ordeal, Davison summed up the bizarre incident with a line most of us could take to heart, "It's still 2020.""
@@mikelevitt7365 That requires a deeper look. It would be catastrophic stoopidity if that wheel was actually made of something that could burn. Green and orange flames from what? Thats not an mg fire.
So that was easy. The master cylinder blew up and in order to successfully ignite brake fluid thats about 700 degrees or more leaving no chance it doesnt go off but thats a far cry from what it would take to light the wheel up so no wheel fire.
Loved the blackbird shout out. For anyone reading this who likes that era of planes, and it's parent company Lockheed Martin's Skunkworks, look for a book called "Skunkworks" by Ben Rich, he was in charge of that division after Kelly Johnson, and had a hand in designing the A-12/SR-71 (critically, the all important engine spike) and it was under his tenure that the F-117 stealth fighter came to be. A must read if you like aviation and want to read about engineering stories that surround these great planes...unexpectedly also has some good advice for business, when discussing Kelly's 15 rules.
Regarding the subject of the video, it's telling that the standard procedure for a metal fire (like magnesium) in a place like a US aircraft carrier is to lob it overboard when possible, even a floating city equipped by Uncle Sam's war resources doesn't have any effective measure for metals on fire. Sheer negligence that this car raced after so many lessons had been learned.
Someone in another comment has confirmed the bit about shoving the plane off the deck before it melts it. The F18 has magnesium landing gear components.
@@AidanMillward A couple of points regarding the bit on the Blackbird. The original "Blackbird" was the Lockheed A-12. This is the aircraft built for the CIA (not the US Air Force) and it entered service before the SR-71. It was actually lighter and faster than the later SR-71. They look very similar but there are some differences if you know where to look.
Titanium is a real pain in the ass to fabricate, mill, drill and weld. When Rockwell approached Lockheed about building the Space Shuttle from titanium, Lockheed told them to forget it as it was just too difficult. The Shuttle was made from traditional aluminium as a result.
Finally, Lockheed-Martin did not come into exuistence until 1995. At the time the Blackbirds were being designed and built, Lockkheed and Martin were two stand-alone (and competing) manufacturers.
@@EricIrl Not on expert on this but on the titanium part what little I've read and seen also points to this. On that Skunk Works book, they mention how different batches of titanium behaved differently and they didn't know why, I won't spoil it but it was quite a random part of the manufacturing process that was causing issues.
I also recall seeing a video from the V10 era about how they had an engineer over at BMW-Williams that would take the complex titanium exhausts and he would manually, gingerly hammer them into the right shape, it seemed incredibly tedious but IIRC that was the only way to do it at the time otherwise the part would get damaged and fail.
@@zeroelus Lockheed had to use special diamond tipped milling machines and cutters to work the titanium. Also, they couldn't mark the compnents with marker ink (as is common practice when cutting metal) because the chemicals in the ink would start corroding the titanium. It is a very, very difficult metal to work.
@@EricIrl Not to mention the toolkit needed to maintain the plane. None of the tools could contain nickel, as that would trigger galvanic corrosion on the Ti.
I can’t imagine how else they expected that to end. Poor guy.
Likely dead before the fire. Just wrecking these things ended people.
@@pazsion You'd certainly hope so.
The moment he said magnesium my mind did go straight back to the chemistry kit I had as a kid and a cold shiver ran down my spine. They used to make flares out of the stuff.
That is what the orcs are firing into Ukraine.
Thank you for saying aluminium correct. Thumbs up!
Regarding non-European entties, don't forget the American built Scarab. It raced many years before the Honda. Not very well, but it was there. Otherwise good stuff, thanks R
That was in 1960, yes.
Actually included this car in my college dissertation, genuinely taken aback by the history when I was doing the research. I had actually met John Surtees himself when I was a kid, wish I could have asked him about the whole affair.
the most insane part in this was that soichiro honda after the french grand prix disaster basically had another ra302 assembled with slight modifications and asked surtees to drive it at the italian grand prix, as if surtees didnt literally just see his teammate get cremated on track
luckily they did end up withdrawing from the series as a constructor after surtees very expectedly wasnt thrilled at the idea of driving the ra302 himself
Magnesium chassis loaded with high octane fuel...Driving a roman candle hoping the fuse doesn't catch fire
Aidan, this story is fascinating in the worst ways and the way you told it was amazing. However, I admit I had to double check and rewatch some segments to understand that the Honda France entry was a separate entry altogether. I had heard the story of Surtees refusing to drive the 302 after the test, then Honda using the 301 instead for that race. It didn't occur to me that the 302 was a separate entry (were they counting as the same constructor for scoring purposes?).
Also, as a minor observation, the Grand Prix circuit used for 68 was still the one with the long stretches and the Gresil, Scierie curves, not the one with the left handers Autoroute and Côte.
That said, thank you for the amazing content, as always
A less dense metal like magnesium is sometimes a better choice when bending or buckling is the expected failure mode, but otherwise, strength to weight is more important. Stiffness to weight is almost the same for all the structural metals. The SR-71 used Titanium for its heat resistance, not because it was better structurally.
Magnesium alloys always made wary when I worked in aviation. The landing gear components on the Hornet are made mostly of magnesium. They told us if it manages to catch fire it will burn so hot that throwing water on it will literally create an explosion as the water atomizes. What we were supposed to do if the gear caught fire was push the plane overboard before it melted through the flight deck.
Not specific to the Hornet, but I do recall seeing many cautionary videos of firefighters unknowingly dumping water on a metal part that's caught fire (I think I saw one for a car that had a magnesium transmission and they came in with the hose) and yes it basically explodes, similar to how you don't want to throw water to an oil pan that's caught fire in the kitchen, but even more dramatic.
@@zeroelus I agree, throwing fire at burning pans is usually a bad ideia.
@@joaopaulo-ms5it Yeah not recommended haha, fixed that typo
I think seeing magnesium burn in science class showed that well enough.
Burning magnesium in water will dissociate the water and use the oxygen to keep on burning, releasing lots of very flammable hydrogen in the process.
I think it is important to note that this shocked Soichiro Honda to the point that Honda withdrew from building race cars for around 50 years, only building engines for other cars. Honda did make magnesium wheels afterward, though, even in production cars. To give you an idea of how insanely light they are, I mounted & balanced 4 tires for a customer on 4 magnesium 1985 Honda CRX rims. The bare rim could be held with 2 fingers, and even with the tire, easily lifted with one hand, open palmed. They were so light, my modern spin balancer did not even apply the motor brake after balancing each wheel/tire assembly. They were then installed on her 1991 Civic with manual rack & pinion steering, and the steering became ridiculously responsive and light as a feather! The heavier original steel wheels gave the car somewhat dangerous oversteer at highway speeds, but the magnesium wheels actually improved both high and low speed handling of the car, which tickled her to no end!
Unsprung weight is no joke!
President Soichiro Honda may have been "shocked", but didn't they try to enter the same death-trap 302 in the following, Italian, Grand Prix? Once again Surtees demurred and in the event I don't think they raced it. I've studied and worked in Japan many years, and have always been impressed at what an incredibly stubborn people they are, often irrationally so. Hard-headedness is admired and interpreted as strength.
I remember my trade school tutor telling us this story. Also told us how Denny Hulme lost the tips of his fingers because he was on fire with methanol and the flames are invisible and no one realized why he was hopping around and slapping his body.
That may have happened at Indianapolis in 1970?
I remember IndyCar drivers on fire and couldn't see it. Very frightening
Aidan, a suggestion. It's not really a F1 thing but the story of the 1970 CanAm shadow is a good one. A titanium frame. At a race, maybe in Canada, going up a hill, it was so light that enough air got under the car that it flipped up and over. It was said that the frame, something like 22K or whatever was to light.
Bro, every time I have an idea I want to send to Aidan, he uploads it within the week. Really appreciate your work, man, you make road trips very relaxing!
Similar story to the 1964 Indy 500, where Dave MacDonald was told , supposedly by Jim Clark in a story that is widely repeated but may be urban legend, not to drive the Mickey Thompson car because it, too, was dubbed a "death trap". He lasted in the race exactly as long as Jo Schleeser, crashing on the second lap, and died in a similar fashion, being incinerated, taking Eddie Sachs along with him. The 64 race might be worth looking at, because, besides the tragedy, there were many interweaving stories involved, such as the melding of two racing cultures with the participation of Clark & Chapman in their all-out effort to win, and the many different characters involved like Foyt, MacDonald, Sachs, Mickey Thompson, who was himself an ex-World Land Speed record holder and some years later a murder victim in a still unsolved crime. It was a watershed moment in the history of racing and the beginning of the end of Indianapolis as a premier world racing event.
@@robbiddlecombe8392 Yes, immediately afterwards and for some years afterwards, but certainly not now or the last 25-30 years. It’s a shadow of the event it used to be and the roots of that decline were planted around 1964. It was short term gain and long term doom.
@@robbiddlecombe8392 It all depends on how you look at it. Looking from 2022, it seems to me that we lost our national top level racing series and traded it for a second-rate wanna-be Formula One. We had something unique and characteristic of our national racing history and traded it for a cheaper version of a European series that isn't even considered the equal (at least in superlicense points) to a trainer series in F2. To me, that is a gigantic loss.
Indy is always going to draw a good crowd because of its novelty value and long history, but six months after the race ask anyone who is not a die hard fan of the series who won it, and you'll get no answers. You'd be lucky to get one out of a thousand to say "some Swedish guy". Once Indy 500 winners became household names, like Foyt, Andretti, Parnelli Jones, the Unsers. Once you had all the young drivers in the country, starting at the short tracks, aiming at Indy as their goal. No more. Now they're as shut out of the series as black baseball players were before Jackie Robinson, and NASCAR, as much as a freak side show as that is, is our national racing series. Instead of it being the ultimate goal for drivers, it's a fall back plan for guys who can't buy their way into Formula One. And it all started when they decided to abandon American cars and American drivers for imitation Formula cars, and that began in 1963-64-65. To me, IndyCar died in the early 80's, when we saw Sneva and Johncock win, with it already becoming clear that we'd never see their like again in victory circle at Indy. Nobody figured that if we did, it would be Jeff Gordon & Tony Stewart in a Winston Cup car.
The Indy 500 is still THE PREMIER racing event in the world bar none.
I learn something from every one of your vids, you're brilliant, my dude. Thank you.
The same might not be said for Porsche, who switched to Mg crankcases for their '74 to '77 engines. I don't think an original 2.7 litre engine exists.
yeah, lets make a an extreme race car filled with flammable hydrocarbons out of a highly flammable material wich is practically impossible to extinguish. great idea!
This one's outside my usual area of expertise, but I believe the reason large blocks of magnesium don't ignite nearly as easily as thin panels and strips is because of heat transfer. Metal transfers heat very easily compared to air, so while the temperature for ignition is the same for both forms of magnesium, a big block being heated will sink the heat into itself much faster than a thin piece of the same mass- this would result in a greater amount of heat being necessary to ignite the block itself, but small pieces breaking off such as in an impact will still spark up and burn away.
TRUTH!
Schlesser would have died in that fire regardless of what the car was made from. (Magnesium is a problem, not so much for the driver as for the fire-fighting crews, because only a truckload of sand can snuff the flames once it ignites.) The problem with the RA302, and the reason Surtees would not drive it, was that it was too light, and almost impossible to keep on the track at high speed. In his own words, "it was impossible to drive any distance with it performing as it should." It was poor handling, not the magnesium construction, that led him to call it a "death trap."
People focus on the fire, for obvious reasons, but it was the handling of the car that was the problem. Poor handling was the reason Schlesser qualified 16th (out of 18 cars), and probably the reason he crashed after a single lap, with a full tank of fuel, in the actual race. Magnesium needs a very hot fire to ignite, and a driver trapped in such a fire won't have time to worry about what else is going to burn.
Best comment. Congrats!
I used to work in a factory where i had to grind magnesium castings for prep before painting. If the sandpaper hit any impurities in the castings, i was awarded a tiny fireworks show. Dangerous as heck... Good salary though.
Hello Aidan: Thank you very much for explaining why the magnesium wheels don't burn. I have been wondering about that for years.
They do it takes longer but burn they do
I would love to drive a watered down version of one of the cigar era F1 cars on a twisty back country road.
One of my bucket list things, probably wont ever happen realistically
I work with magnesium every day. There are ways to manufacture it so it cannot ignite from the temperatures seen in fuel fires and brake friction. I'm sure Honda did their research on this. The one thing you can't easily prevent is sparks created from direct contact on cement. A control arm failure could easily cause that.
The magnesium bits in modern F1 cars are also probably made of Magnesium alloys which are less flammable than pure Magnesium.
Years ago when I was an SCCA corner worker at Road America, the IndyCar folks did training for us on how to address alcohol and magnesium fires. You can't se the alcohol burn, just the grass turning black. At the time they used a bucket of sand to put out the magnesium fire as regular fire extinguishers or water didn't work. I think we have a similar issue today with the lithium EV batteries where fire departments often don't have the right equipment. And we saw the transport ship catch fire and sink full of VW, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley cars.
Interesting fact:
NASCAR actually uses magnesium as the material for the firewall located between the engine and the driver's feet. Magnesium is actually quite good at not catching fire if it's made thick enough. Of course, Honda didn't seem to appreciate this...
The thing is if it's very thick, it's also going to be quite heavy.
The problem wasn`t magnesium or air cooling but the inexperience of Schlesser and bad weather. He did slide from the track on a corner and hit the earth bank. He got fatal injuries hitting the bank. The side fuel tank also exploded due the inpact (the fuel exploded due the compression like in diesel engine, there was nothing to do with hot engine) and made the car burn.
Bloody 'ell, I had forgotten this. Horrible testament to corporate madness. They didn't stpo the race?!! Good report on your part, thanks.
Thanks again adian fantastic work sir 👏
I remember my first year Chemistry lessons and experiments with Magnesium back in 1960, very explosive!
And didn’t the ‘Big Wing’ thing start with Jim Hall and his Chaparral Can Am cars?
Great stuff as always, man. When you said "Old Man Chappers" it gave me a mental image of Colin Chapman as a villain from Scooby Doo. "I would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling track marshals!" Or something to that effect.
I would have been about 18 when this happened, and remember it well! One of my school-mates was a real petrol-head, and used to get the American car magazines sent over here to Blighty. I can't remember if it was in Road & Track or Car & Driver, but I vividly remember seeing a picture of the burning Honda just after the accident. All you could see was a blue white sphere with four wheels sticking out! It was like staring into the sun, but without the red tinge. It was horrifying! I didn't know the background to the accident until this video, so thanks for filling in the gaps!
Magnesium burns hotter under water. It burns hot enough to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, adding fuel to the fire. As a firefighter iv had some experience with burning cars. Magnesium is used in a few of the steering shaft components. It’s kinda nice because once it ignites it will burn a hole through the floorboards and open a drain hole to drain the water out of the car.
The 1970 Williams-De Tomaso in which Piers Courage died was also partially made of aluminum, and it also went up in flames. Courage had probably already been killed by a wheel that had hit him in the head, though.
Dad was in Grissom’s test pilot class. All the test pilots petitioned the then NASA group to eliminate the 100% oxygen Apollo capsule atmosphere. Another gas would have added weight and so the request was denied and Grissom, White and Chaffe were incinerated.
Precisely.....
See my comments above.
J.C,
So there I was, 16 years old, with a gouge in my magnesium side case on my Honda Elsinore's side cover. " HEY, I can use that hand grinder and just kind of buff it down!" It took about 3 seconds. Brighter than the sun, I swear.
Dad taught Industrial Arts 789th grade--Taught small gas engines-Old mower decks made of magnesium would be broken up for demo purposes. I still have a gallon can full-at 60 year old.--light up for the 4th july--kids love it--just don,t look to much or burn your retinas out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks dad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some Austin maestro cars had a magnesium gearbox case and as an ex firefighter I can tell you they were very spectacular to try and extinguish. Basically play water on the rest of the car while the magnesium burns out.
Can imagine it's like putting water on a chip pan fire
Having done some contract work (something much more boring than autoracing) for a different japanese car company, not at all surprising that senior management would overrule safety concerns affecting non-japanese employees.
I wonder if you’ll end up talking about the ‘Hail Melon’ by Ross chastain to make the championship 4 in Nascar and if you have ever tried anything similar in assetto corsa
Is that what we're calling it? Hah! I love it!
Best Motorsport highlight this year by a mile! I'm mostly into BTCC and F1 but NASCAR and XFINITY both been awesome this year
Found your channel after watching all the 12 hour bathurst enduro you did with Dan and Matt. Love the content, great video mate 👍
Honda being 1st non Euro team? Should I mention Jack Brabham about now?
And magnesium burns SO hot that the addition of H2O only adds to the intensity because it separates the H and the O to create both a fuel and an oxidiser.
Might want to check your facts. Brabham has always been registered as a British team and based in Britain just like mclaren.
Brabham also used coopers at the start.
@@OoVECTORMANoO I thought the Repco-Brabham cars raced in the green and gold colours of Australia rather than British Racing Green? I mean I've never heard the Brabham described as being painted in British Racing Green until you mentioned that the cars were entered as British.
Hmmm looks like I might have some homework to do. I won't argue semantics like Australian owner, designer, engines just yet before I do some reading. 😁😉❤️✌️
Oh and thanks for being so respectful in your comments. It's part of the reason I subscribe.
@@TassieLorenzo British racing green isn’t a set colour, really. Aston’s green has blue in it, Jaguar and Bentley have a really dark green and Lotus is the green everyone associates with it.
The most worrying part is how nobody had LeMans '55 flashbacks when they first proposed a magnesium body.
May be wrong, but the relative safety of modern magnesium hubs isn't due to the size of the chunks of metal...my understanding is that they are an alloy (a mix of metals) rather than pure magnesium.
fun fact, you can still see a bit of the cobblestone at the hairpin on google maps. One side of the road isn't fully retarmaced :D
I'm glad I missed that race. I saw Monaco, Spa, Germany, and Italy that year, as well as the F2 race at Hockenheim when JC was killed. I should look for the photos.
Yes, magnesium will burn quite readily in air once ignited. It will also burn under water so no good hosing it with water. Aluminium also burns readily in air IF and only IF its oxide coating is removed first. Aluminium readily forms its own oxide coating which then prevents further oxidation. Beryllium is about as light as magnesium but its dust through abrasion or machining is highly toxic needing very special dedicated machining facilities and then in products where it can't fragment. Upside is its very low coefficient of thermal expansion. Titanium will also burn in air in the right circumstances. Notionally about as strong as steel but but with an SG of 4.5 vs. 7.85 for steel. Epoxy carbon composite volume for volume is notionally as strong as steel but one third the weight. However as Rolls Royce found out during development of the RB 211 when wet it then becomes notch sensitive. The smaller the dia. of the carbon fibres in epoxy carbon increases the strength BUT fibres small than 10 micron in dia. can permeate the human skin and migrate throughout the body, which is why industrial carbon fibres has filaments 10 microns or bigger. So called high modulus epoxy carbon uses filaments smaller than 10 microns so if a fighter jet crashes near you it may well contain both beryllium and high modulus epoxy carbon so best to keep well away.
Yes, surface area jas a lot to do with the danger. A large wheel has a lot of mass to its surface area. To burn a material it has to reach a certain temperature.... but a large mass of a good heat conductor draws heat energy from the surface thus lowering the temperature at the air-metal interface. The sparks you mentioned have a very small mass & are easily heated above the autoignition temp; the high surface area to volume ratio exposes a large percentage to oxygen. A thin panel once the surface reaches ignition temp (or melts) hasn't any mass to absorb heat. That's why a 200 lb slab of magnesium poses a low explosion risk whereas the same amount in tiny particles ("dust") suspended in air would be an extreme explosion risk.
Have to say Aidan. Love your work picked it up during lockdown. I really like your 20 min videos as they are great to listen to at work. Keep up the good work brother
Actually big chunks of magnesium will burn, but it requires intense heat and some time to heat it to the point of ignition.
An example of this was the WW2 B-29 bomber. The engine would overheat and catch fire. The crankcase was magnesium and would begun to burn.
It is virtually impossible to extinguish, so many were lost due to the wing departing.
I remember reading online about folks who’d hang out in the desert for festivals, and at one of these every year they’d light up a magnesium engine block. You have to crack off the outer layer so you can get to the ignitable inner metal.
Vw beetle engine blocks were mag , guys would use one new years as a camp fire
As soon as I read magnesium I thought it was sketchy, but when I saw that Jo Schlesser would be driving it..
I knew the anecdote about Ligier but not the exact circumstances of Jo's death..
Also thanks for explaining the thing about the magnesium wheels, I never understood why people would put such a flammable substance into a y parts of a car. Heard about magnesium piston heads too, I guess it must be the same phenomena.
I had the magnesium ribbon experiment too when I was in middle school, it was awfully bright. And apparently this was used in powder to make the early "flashes" that when they took pictures back in the early 20th century. Still, I absolutely don't understand how some people would be thinking it'd be absolutely fine building a car out of that..
Early Porsche 911 crankcases are magnesium as well (with aluminum cylinders and heads).
My favourite story about the sr-71 is the one major Brian Shul tells regarding airspeed calls 😂😂
the other reason the hubs don't catch fire is not jut the mass of mag but the fact that it will be "mag_ally" a magnesium aluminium compound that actualy makes it a hole lot stronger than either of the individual components on its own coupled with modern heat treatment an forging process its able to be quite well used in very high stress environments. it can be found in use in more every day applications all be little on the high end such as mountain bike/motor cross front forks alloy wheels. but it does still carry the same risks in the event of a fire as if it get hot enough melt the compound then its likely to burn off the mag fairly quickly.
the other bit of sicenc that goes along with this is the way mag burns its effectively a self oxidising chemical fire along with that its also reactive to water so putting watter on the fire will have only made the problem worse on 2 fronts it will have reacted to the water an them been hottenough to brake the bonds to the oxygen an hydrigon fuelling the fire further this is why u see powder an CO2 foam being used now as it is designd to take the heat an the oxygen out of the equation an is stable an non reactive even under extreme heat.
I pronounce aluminum exactly as you do, for the looks of confusion!
There are videos on TH-cam of Schlesser's Honda after it crashed, and the resultant firefighting effort. But I wouldn't recommend seeing them if you are in any way squeamish or easily upset. The fact they tried to put out a magnesium fire with water is alarming to say the least.
I read an eyewitness report on the Autosport Nostalgia forum that said the Honda landed upside down so hard after it flipped, that Schlesser may well have been killed before the fire started. We can only hope.
It was shown in the Killer Years doc along with Von Tripps’ crash.
I'd say given the near fatal injuries sustained to A.J. Foyt in a more secure stock car at least for a flip given the roll cage at Riverside that Schlesser was almost certainly killed as (a. the embankment Schlesser went up was steeper, (b. Schlesser's head and neck were exposed, (c. Schlesser rolled more times than Foyt, (d Schlesser landed upside down, and (e. Foyt was declared dead and only revived by Parnelli Jones removing a clod of dirt from Foyt's mouth.
And there was a lot more things going Foyt's way at Riverside for it to almost kill him.
Superb resume of a shocking period in Formula One history
There is (or was) a ready example of thin sheet magnesium that could be ignited: a photo flash bulb or flashcube for instamatic camera
Long ago, in a universe far away, I did flagging and corner work. We trained with professional firefighters. One of thierbwar stories was that the army gave them a damaged helicopter to practice firefighting on. They put it in a field, got all the engines ready, deployed the hoses, and light it. It was completely consumed before they were able get any extinguishing deployed on it. Yes, the frame of the helicopter was magnesium. We learned to respect the magnesium parts of the cars we responded to.
That's life. We learn and move on but must not judge decisions made in the distant past on knowledge available today. It's very, very easy to appear wise with the benefit of hindsight.
11:58 It sounds very doubtful that brakes would get hot enough to ignite the wheels. OTOH a wheel scraping against something like concrete might actually create sparks.
The 1967 F1 Gurney Eagle was all magnesium sheet. Dan Gurney refused seat belts for this reason. So the Honda was not the first use.
Modern magnesium parts use less flammable alloys. You have to ignite a powder or chips to see those alloys burn. Most racing series today use magnesium wheels, including F1, MotoGP, NASCAR, DTM and Indy.
In the early days of photography, flash powder was magnesium and later flash bulbs were magnesium wool. But that was pure magnesium.
The 1935 Bugatti Aerolithe was all magnesium sheet. It can be welded under inert gas.
I've seen a number of times in NASCAR races where wheels caught on fire. Not a common occurrence, but it has happened on occasion. A memorable one was a race in Charlotte where one of Jeff Gordon's wheels caught fire, and it was impressive because it was at night. Usually happens because of a break failure, the breaks catch fire, then the wheel catches fire.
I didn’t say Honda was the first use of magnesium though.
Would love to hear more about Jo bonnier if you are able to someday 😊
Yes! Any day Aidan uploads is a good day!
Racing carrying on while the car and driver burnt to ash was pretty ghoulish.
The frame of the SR+71 was titanium. Composites had been around since the 50s.
All three Drivers with the first name Jo were killed driving. I do believe that if I was a driver in that time I’d either quit racing or change my name!
Call it faith in their own technical genius, call it corporate arrogance, but sometimes Honda just presses on. The NR500 GP bike was another prime example.
Fun fact:
The successor to the RA302, technically speaking, is the RA106…from 2006.
Chronologically speaking perhaps.
Burning magnesium always reminds me of the 'burning bar' in the James Caan film Thief.
As a kid playing around with a strip of magnesium* and wanting to see it burn, I found that I could light it with the kitchen gas stove flame, but only if I thinned out the end of the strip by hammering it. So yeah: Thick magnesium is fairly safe, thin magnesium not so much.
*Why don't Americans call it "magnesinum"?
(-8D !!!
This Honda fan-boy LOVES their vintage F1 cars!!
Watching this for the second time, and I'm reminded of the thing that struck me the most in the first half of the video: John Surtees said the car was unsafe. John Surtees was also considered a madman by the rest of the grid for being a motorcycle racer before joining the four-wheeled grid. If John Surtees didn't want to drive it, it must have been undrivable.
Also mad when you factor in John Surtees surviving motorsport at its deadliest, yet his son died when it was at its safest.
Very interesting. I didn't know. Hownstuoid of Honda and those who agreed/collaborated to build a racing car from sheet magnesium. At least fighter jets have ejector seats!
Beautiful and interesting story!
The fact that they didn't interrupt the race is just mental
That was the way things were back then. It was perfectly "normal" at the time.
Watching this in my car at work during lunch and it’s raining and at 13:20 ish when he said another sudden down pour it started pouring rain crazy I didn’t know TH-cam had immersive environments
When you said magnesium I started shaking my head, I knew the fire was imminent.
Off subject - the incredulous builders of our helicopters in Vietnam, made the decks of the choppers out of magnesium - if you were wounded and picked up on a dust off, chances of being burned alive from heavy fire in the LZ were quite high. The hubris of people in charge of building a specialized vehicle is criminal. Our Memorial has 56,000 names on it.
I remember when the crash happened talk was the fire crews could not put the fire out due to the mag bodywork.
Always wondered about the JS designation of the Ligier Chassis'
The three most hard-hitting deaths in F1 were (in no particular order): Senna, Villeneuve and Clark.
I won't disagree, but in my time as a follower of F1, we lost Jules Bianchi. Maybe not yet as beloved by fans as the drivers you list, but Jules' life-ending collision with the crane in Suzuka resulted in at least 2 major changes in F1: the virtual safety car and the Halo. Since then, we've seen multiple accidents where the Halo unquestionably saved the driver from critical injury or death. Verstappen landing atop Hamilton is one, and certainly Grosjean's miracle survival after going under a fence. It's unknown what effect the VSC has been on safety, but it has surely changed pit strategy!
A little fun fact about titanium:
Aston Martin engineer, in one of Hagerty's video, told a story about how they got interrogated by ministry of defence. Valkyrie required lots and lots of lightweight materials, including titanium. So much titanium, in fact, that MoD actually asked Aston Martin 'What on earth were you guys doing with that many titanium, last time we needed so much titanium USA is making SR-71 Blackbird.'. Good thing Aston already got Valkyrie prototype to show them what the heck they were making.
My old ( maybe 1970? ) Lawnboy push mower had a magnesium deck, lightest mower I’ve ever used.
VW Beetles had magnesium crankcases, if I'm not mistaken...
"Interesting" bit of information: The temperature of a magnesium fire (2200C) is the temperature at which water begins to dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen and oxygen then burn and go back into water, but releases enough energy in that process to cause more water to dissociate. It's why you can't use water to put out a magnesium fire. You're actually feeding the flames unless you can add so much water so quickly that you can immediately cut off the magnesium flame from keeping the burning hydrogen from continuing.
i didn't know the JS bit. Thank you.
In the late 70s at a Camel GT weekend at Road Atlanta, someone burned a magnesium VW engine in the infield near Turn 5. It wasn't THE BOG at Watkins Glen, but it was full of pagan rituals!
The engine cases of Type 1 VW Bugs and Type 2 VW Buses are made out of magnesium.
hello, i'm writing fropm France, at this 1968 grand prix i was standing along the track just at the place of this terrific crash, and i'have stil a photography of this accident and of this poor Jo Schlesser burning in his car, an horrific picture,
If Jay didn't know.... He knows what a hot rod is now... !!!
did you just shoutout Gav and Dan from the Slow Mo Guys? aight i'll check out some of your other videos