after all, chromatic harmony that hasn't been systematized yet (will it ever?) truly shows how gigantic these musicians were. Most of us learn the basic chromatic harmony, i.e. secondary dominants, borrowed chrods, etc, but someone like Wagner, Chopin etc truly blows your mind with the wealth of incredible ideas.
The first few minutes of this video are probably the most compact and relevent introduction to the essence of tonal harmony I've ever heard. Thank you very much.
Very interesting. It always shocks me to think that a great thinker and lover of music like Schopenhauer derided the music of a genius like Wagner. Then again Wagner's music was disliked by many illustrious musicians such as the Schumanns, Brahms etc. But in the end, dislike and derision are members of the same family, so to speak.
This has been an incredible alternative way of understanding the functions in harmony, and in particular of exploring the GREAT journey of emotions that Wagner proposes in his prelude because following the usual way of seeing the chords of the tonality, the analysis becomes very complicated. . But this way, he gets a sensational naturalness. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective!
I really enjoyed that, especially considering how often this particularly piece has been analyzed already. I would love to hear your thoughts on parsifal. I always found that opera to be special, because some of the most beautiful moments of it are diatonic but still manage to sound very unique.
Great video! That makes a good introduction into that type of chromatic harmony. There is one passage though that I thought was really wrong. The passage in question starts at 15:35. This D-Minor isn't odd at all (it's definitely not a G chord) and the following chords are really in D (meaning the E-flat is absolutely not a tonic but a neapolitan chord). However I'm sure you already know that, to me it felt like you knew there was some trickery going on there when you said the D-Minor was actually G ;)
I realized this independently through my self-teaching of jazz, and assumed others must have too. I even created the matrix (among others). But learning that it goes back as far as Wagner is new and surprising to me.
Such a great discussion. Couldn't be any clearer. Bought the Kindel book! The linear-chart is a great tool both analytical and creative - set it up in Excel or Numbers and track the play-by-play. Schillinger, Schenkerian and Forte disciple here and now Prof Smith.
Thanks for the video very interesting analysis. I was surprised that you didn't mention the subdominant function of the Neapolitan chord either in it's cadential function N6, V, I or it's tonicisation as a subdominant tonal region commonly used towards the end of large scale pieces in Classical and Romantic eras.
Yep - you're right. But the Neapolitan is definitely complex functionally, because it has one foot in both Subdominant (derived from alterations to IV) and Dominant (common tritone 'substitute'). Basically you can tell what its function was after it's resolved (either N-V-I or N-I).
Thanks for the info ! I like the circle with the 3 octatonic groups ( 6:25 ) and your explanation . Would that be based on Bartok´s/ Lendvai´s theories ? Or is this also present elsewhere , maybe Hindemith , Schillinger etc ?
@@AskeryMusic Yes, definitely Lendvai. He doesn't really justify his system and it ends up seeming quite raw. But I basically think he's right. He's also generally thinking on a larger scale rather than chord-to-chord level.
One personal nitpick/suggestion is: rather than the very odd and rarely-seen B7 to demonstrate how a B root can be considered as the basis of a subdominant harmony in C, I'd have much sooner went for the diatonic (half)diminished chord: B - D - F - (A). That's a very standard tonal movement, viiø - V7. In addition, the chord almost always (in CPP music at least) appears in first inversion to avoid forming a tritone with the bass: D - F - B, and thus maintains that fifth root motion moving to the V, G; in that way, it's really does appear like a modified subdominant: D - F - A -> D - F - B. With that said, your larger point seemed to be that you can "get away with" a lot regarding substitutions - especially insofar as chromaticism is concerned - so long as the T - PD - D relation/sensation is maintained; the B7 better demonstrates that point.
Enjoyed your analysis very much! Isn't it interesting that (supposedly) Berlioz could not appreciate this prelude? I love the first act conclusion of Tristan. Wagner presents increasingly triumphant music but dissonantly reverts back emphasizing the dilemma of the drama. Musically how do you analyze the closing bars? They are regal, but bare and left hanging. Thanks!
Interesting video and presentation. Would it be possible to have a chord progression like C, D half diminished 7, (E, Ab, B), C? Like an E major chord but spelled and tuned with the slightly lower Ab note which pulls down to G, rather than the normal G# note of E major that would pull up as a leading tone. Or in that case would that third chord be spelled as a plain old E major chord? When I tune it in Pythagorean true intonation, the Ab holding over from the D half diminished 7 sounds right in the E chord. Having a G# doesn't move to C major in as a clear a way. But I do not know the name of the chord composed of the notes E, Ab, and B.
Liked the video so ordered the book. I though I knew a good bit about music but for all my knowledge the book might as well have been written in chinese as I did not understand a word! Obviously written for people much more clever than myself!
Hey there - definitely not written for people "cleverer" than you! But certianly written for specialists in this corner of music theory. I know exactly what you mean. If you're ever in Liverpool give me a shout and I'll explain the coolest ideas over lunch by way of a refund!
Thanks Kenneth. What always amazes me about music is that there are so so many different ways of approaching it or thinking about it. As I said I really liked the videos.
Could someone please explain to me why the rows in the table are 4ths when he says 5ths, I'm really confused by that, any help would be greatly appreciated EDIT: I've noticed it is the circle of 5ths in reverse, so now I'm confused why is the circle of 5ths a circle of 4ths in reverse?
Hi Lars, I tried to answer a similar question from Adam (above). I reckon there are no rules about chord quality if you're composing; it's more a theory of how certain kinds of music might hang together. If it proves useful to compose with I'd like to hear about it. I suppose it could be a good basis for experimenting with new chord progressions and substitutions, and can help stimulate ideas for chord progressions maybe. Certainly 7th chords of various types work well. Those French-sixths are the coolest in chromatic music in my humble opinion.
why dont't you go minor with all chromatic chords. minor gets very strange, due to the chromatic fourth. so, in the minor scale, you would use all semitones above the fifth, to the tonic. the dorian version was avoided early in italy, 1650's. all the other, chromatic. harmonic, melodic.
Only thing here is he starts off talking about strong movements of fifths but I - IV is not the movement of a fifth but of a fourth. It’s only a movement of a fifth if you are going DOWNWARDS with the bass. Why do you go down with the bass when going I-IV but when you go from V- I your bass movement is upwards ?????
The language used to describe these functions is a hodgepodge of linguistic doublespeak. For example, you describe the resolution of Fm/Ab to G (although not stated as G) as ‘Phrygian’ because of the descending min 2nd in the bass, when it has nothing to do with the actual Phrygian mode. What does”invisible” D below the subdominant F mean? Why is it implied? Classical theory is full of these borrowed terms which are misleading and non descriptive. No wonder generations of music students find the theory impenetrable. As a language it’s worse than English, with borrowed words from 6 different languages. If you really wanted to do something meaningful you could write a book that proposes a coherent approach to the language of music theory. Despite that, I enjoyed the talk, and have subscribed to the channel. Too bad only those who have learned the twisted and inconsistent language of Classical theory can understand it.
I've been searching for a proper detailed explanation of Wagner's music beyond "le Tristan chord" all my life! Thank you very much
after all, chromatic harmony that hasn't been systematized yet (will it ever?) truly shows how gigantic these musicians were. Most of us learn the basic chromatic harmony, i.e. secondary dominants, borrowed chrods, etc, but someone like Wagner, Chopin etc truly blows your mind with the wealth of incredible ideas.
The first few minutes of this video are probably the most compact and relevent introduction to the essence of tonal harmony I've ever heard. Thank you very much.
Very interesting. It always shocks me to think that a great thinker and lover of music like Schopenhauer derided the music of a genius like Wagner. Then again Wagner's music was disliked by many illustrious musicians such as the Schumanns, Brahms etc. But in the end, dislike and derision are members of the same family, so to speak.
This has been an incredible alternative way of understanding the functions in harmony, and in particular of exploring the GREAT journey of emotions that Wagner proposes in his prelude because following the usual way of seeing the chords of the tonality, the analysis becomes very complicated. . But this way, he gets a sensational naturalness. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective!
Awesome. I wish my professor explained the harmony of this piece so succinctly.
Did he just solve the tristan problem? 😅 Great video, very inspiring and making me hope for much more.
THIS OPENED ME TO SO MANY NEW IDEAS! Amazingly explained. Thank you sir.
I really enjoyed that, especially considering how often this particularly piece has been analyzed already. I would love to hear your thoughts on parsifal. I always found that opera to be special, because some of the most beautiful moments of it are diatonic but still manage to sound very unique.
Great video! That makes a good introduction into that type of chromatic harmony.
There is one passage though that I thought was really wrong. The passage in question starts at 15:35. This D-Minor isn't odd at all (it's definitely not a G chord) and the following chords are really in D (meaning the E-flat is absolutely not a tonic but a neapolitan chord). However I'm sure you already know that, to me it felt like you knew there was some trickery going on there when you said the D-Minor was actually G ;)
I realized this independently through my self-teaching of jazz, and assumed others must have too. I even created the matrix (among others). But learning that it goes back as far as Wagner is new and surprising to me.
Could you share some of your self-learned knowledge about jazz harmony? I also try to find out on my own
Such a great discussion. Couldn't be any clearer. Bought the Kindel book! The linear-chart is a great tool both analytical and creative - set it up in Excel or Numbers and track the play-by-play. Schillinger, Schenkerian and Forte disciple here and now Prof Smith.
I come back to this so often. Thank you for making this available.
Thanks for the video very interesting analysis. I was surprised that you didn't mention the subdominant function of the Neapolitan chord either in it's cadential function N6, V, I or it's tonicisation as a subdominant tonal region commonly used towards the end of large scale pieces in Classical and Romantic eras.
Yep - you're right. But the Neapolitan is definitely complex functionally, because it has one foot in both Subdominant (derived from alterations to IV) and Dominant (common tritone 'substitute'). Basically you can tell what its function was after it's resolved (either N-V-I or N-I).
Thanks for the info !
I like the circle with the 3 octatonic groups ( 6:25 ) and your explanation .
Would that be based on Bartok´s/ Lendvai´s theories ? Or is this also present elsewhere , maybe Hindemith , Schillinger etc ?
I have exactly the same question regarding Lendvai's theory about Pitch Axis :)
@@AskeryMusic Yes, definitely Lendvai. He doesn't really justify his system and it ends up seeming quite raw. But I basically think he's right. He's also generally thinking on a larger scale rather than chord-to-chord level.
Absolute gold! Well done.
Loved this! Thank you!
Super cool, I'll have to check out the book.
One personal nitpick/suggestion is: rather than the very odd and rarely-seen B7 to demonstrate how a B root can be considered as the basis of a subdominant harmony in C, I'd have much sooner went for the diatonic (half)diminished chord: B - D - F - (A). That's a very standard tonal movement, viiø - V7. In addition, the chord almost always (in CPP music at least) appears in first inversion to avoid forming a tritone with the bass: D - F - B, and thus maintains that fifth root motion moving to the V, G; in that way, it's really does appear like a modified subdominant: D - F - A -> D - F - B.
With that said, your larger point seemed to be that you can "get away with" a lot regarding substitutions - especially insofar as chromaticism is concerned - so long as the T - PD - D relation/sensation is maintained; the B7 better demonstrates that point.
Enjoyed your analysis very much! Isn't it interesting that (supposedly) Berlioz could not appreciate this prelude? I love the first act conclusion of Tristan. Wagner presents increasingly triumphant music but dissonantly reverts back emphasizing the dilemma of the drama. Musically how do you analyze the closing bars? They are regal, but bare and left hanging. Thanks!
Interesting video and presentation. Would it be possible to have a chord progression like C, D half diminished 7, (E, Ab, B), C? Like an E major chord but spelled and tuned with the slightly lower Ab note which pulls down to G, rather than the normal G# note of E major that would pull up as a leading tone.
Or in that case would that third chord be spelled as a plain old E major chord? When I tune it in Pythagorean true intonation, the Ab holding over from the D half diminished 7 sounds right in the E chord. Having a G# doesn't move to C major in as a clear a way. But I do not know the name of the chord composed of the notes E, Ab, and B.
Definitely in theory possible, because the Ab would pull down and the B pull up (to G and C). However, your guitarist might raise eyebrows!
Liked the video so ordered the book. I though I knew a good bit about music but for all my knowledge the book might as well have been written in chinese as I did not understand a word! Obviously written for people much more clever than myself!
Hey there - definitely not written for people "cleverer" than you! But certianly written for specialists in this corner of music theory. I know exactly what you mean. If you're ever in Liverpool give me a shout and I'll explain the coolest ideas over lunch by way of a refund!
Thanks Kenneth. What always amazes me about music is that there are so so many different ways of approaching it or thinking about it. As I said I really liked the videos.
Could someone please explain to me why the rows in the table are 4ths when he says 5ths, I'm really confused by that, any help would be greatly appreciated EDIT: I've noticed it is the circle of 5ths in reverse, so now I'm confused why is the circle of 5ths a circle of 4ths in reverse?
Very well intentioned
Is the term “desire” interchangeable with “function” in this context?
Fascinating! Why did you respell the some flat chords enharmonically? Is there a particular reason?
Very nice!
Very interesting, but what is the rules for what kind of chords you can use in this system?
Hi Lars, I tried to answer a similar question from Adam (above). I reckon there are no rules about chord quality if you're composing; it's more a theory of how certain kinds of music might hang together. If it proves useful to compose with I'd like to hear about it. I suppose it could be a good basis for experimenting with new chord progressions and substitutions, and can help stimulate ideas for chord progressions maybe. Certainly 7th chords of various types work well. Those French-sixths are the coolest in chromatic music in my humble opinion.
@@kennethsmith3002 Thank you!
great videooo
why dont't you go minor with all chromatic chords. minor gets very strange, due to the chromatic fourth. so, in the minor scale, you would use all semitones above the fifth, to the tonic. the dorian version was avoided early in italy, 1650's. all the other, chromatic. harmonic, melodic.
10:50
Only thing here is he starts off talking about strong movements of fifths but I - IV is not the movement of a fifth but of a fourth. It’s only a movement of a fifth if you are going DOWNWARDS with the bass. Why do you go down with the bass when going I-IV but when you go from V- I your bass movement is upwards ?????
The language used to describe these functions is a hodgepodge of linguistic doublespeak. For example, you describe the resolution of Fm/Ab to G (although not stated as G) as ‘Phrygian’ because of the descending min 2nd in the bass, when it has nothing to do with the actual Phrygian mode. What does”invisible” D below the subdominant F mean? Why is it implied? Classical theory is full of these borrowed terms which are misleading and non descriptive. No wonder generations of music students find the theory impenetrable. As a language it’s worse than English, with borrowed words from 6 different languages. If you really wanted to do something meaningful you could write a book that proposes a coherent approach to the language of music theory. Despite that, I enjoyed the talk, and have subscribed to the channel. Too bad only those who have learned the twisted and inconsistent language of Classical theory can understand it.