I believe the secret to loading the trap door is the keep the muzzle pointed down to help keep the trap door open. Very good video, thanks for sharing. I have an H & R reproduction dating back to 1976/77. I bought it after coming back from the 100th anniversary of the battle of the Little Big Horn. Only complaint I have with my gun is it has a flip down back sight and not the original "ladder" sights the originals came with.
I had the same version of H&R's Trapdoor. I learned to keep my right thumb on the right side lest the tang rear sight would gouge my hand. Winchester 405gr factory loads were not a joy to shoot. Ended up making very mild loads with cast pistol bullets and a small powder charge that needed cotton to keep it near the primer hole. Fun gun to shoot and then I got too practical and traded it for something more practical, whatever that was. I'd like to get another. Edit/ with those near squib loads it a really fun plinker. You can reload surprisingly fast if you aren't in pain.
Over the weekend I took my Springfield Model 1884 (built in 1888) with a 32" barrel to the range and fired it on the 300 yard range. Still deadly accurate at 125 years old. Great rifles. The Buffington sight is a marvel of engineering.
I am 68 years old, I got a laztec eye surgery, the Buffington is the greatest sight ever on a weapon, you have to have perfect vision to maximize the fantastic peep sight, to go back and forth with the peep, and about 150 yards more with the rearsight, on the same sight adjustment is fantastic.
@@davidr2975 I used to be deadly with iron sights, but since I turned about 50 my eyes can't focus on the target and sights at the same time. Was that eye surgery covered by insurance?
@@bigredc222 no it was about 2800 bucks well worth it, I can see the rear sight, front sight and target clear as a bell, my handguns too, and I am 68 years old, the only draw back, I have to wear reading glasses to see up close.
I couldn't help but think of the movie "Quigley Down Under" when you did the tucking the cartridge between the fingers. Quigley does exactly that with his Sharps rifle.
Hmmmm. Is there any evidence of this technique being actually used? The implication here was that it was a combat expedient. I doubt it. We're used to modern repeating arms, so we view the trapdoor as somewhat slow and cumbersome. They were used to stuffing muzzles (in 1866), so that action was a lot faster from the get-go. I'm willing to bet that the rate of sustained fire is a lot faster loading from the belt. Is it suggested that, after the first three rounds of this technique, you are going to have to reload your fingers before you reload your rifle? I smell Hollywood, gents...
@@daveostlund3955 It was a technique used by the British with their Martini-Henry rifles, so it kinda makes sense to me that a similar technique would be developed for America's big-bore single shot.
john the kit in stock was an added feature that sears did-they bought many and sold them for less than 10 dollars way back then. the government stock did not have the hole for the kit so its not AN original stock. i had 1 also-1873 carbine
@@charleslytle7529 I believe the later carbines were manufactured with a provision to carry a 3 piece cleaning rod in the stock. Rifles wouldn't have needed this because they had a rod under the barrel.
Very cool rifle, and awesome video yet again sir. I’ve found a new favorite firearms channel. I enjoy some modern handguns & rifles but I really like some of the historical content you provide and just find leverguns, black powder rifles, etc really nostalgic. Keep em coming chief👍
Love those BPCR's. I run them in my Buffalo Classic and my M92 Lever in 45 Colt. I get about 250fps more out of the holy black in my 45 than with smokeless. The extreme spread is about 8 fps. Thanks for the great videos and Guns of the Old West is one of my favorite magazines!
About 40 years ago I encountered a guy at the range that hunted "big, toothy critters" with a big bored Ruger #1. He loaded ridiculously fast with spare cartridges between his fingers in that manner.
I was searching for how to shoot from this kind of rifle (Springfield 1873), how to recharge and etc., but nowhere in the Internet was a detailed explanation. Thank you for interesting review!
I have the old trapdoor longer barrel 45.70 which had belonged to my great great uncle. I was told that the Rifle had also been used to fire .410 shotgun shells amazingly. Excellent video clip....thank you for posting.
In the early 20th Century Trapdoor Springfield rifles and carbines were so inexpensive that they were almost free. Kids bought them to shoot 410 shotshells in. Many that have survived have bores nearly shot out. I own one of them.
In 1948 I bought, from a movie supply company, an 1864 Springfield in superb condition with the original bayonet and sling for $15.00. It had a nickel plated barrel and all the stamped armory identification on the stock. It was a rifled barrel in excellent condition and shot a 50-70 rimfire cartridge, I was able to buy ten of them. I never fired the rifle, I wanted it to remain in prime condition. I later found that it was the second Allen conversion from a cap and ball to a trapdoor cartridge rifle. Last year I put it for auction at Rock Island Auction company and it sold for $1750.00.
It's also a fact that the Henry, and even the Spencer rifles, were superior to Trapdoor, especially at closer ranges. Custer's troops never stood a chance against he better armed Indians. He should have taken a couple of Gatlings with him. That would have evened the odds
The Brits stood to gain from a few Gatlings at Isandlwana. Incidentally, I read somewhere that the ammo used by Custer's men caused malfunctions. The spent cartridges wouldn't properly ejects and some remained lodged in the breech. Scary thought if you've got some pissed off Native charging at you with a Henry
They had Gatling guns with the troop, but Custer refused to take them along, stating that they'd only slow him down. Fool was a glory roader seeking the presidency. Funnier still to me was, when the American Indians got hold of the new spencer's, preferred over the trapdoor Springfield's, they hit the lever that broke them down for cleaning. this effectively broke them in half, and they thought they broke them and threw them on the ground. That was a story I read years ago...Sports Afield, I think? I don't totally believe that one myself. More Spencer's and fewer Springfield's would've certainly been an advantage in that battle.
Instead of a expensive repo, just do what I did , get a original carbine, most of the barrels are pitted and worn, get a barrel reline with the original 3 Grove rifling, it will shoot better than a original mint barrel, which are hard to find anyways, and you can shoot low pressure jacketed bullets, and you have a original carbine with a mint barrel.
I'm making a Civil War-era video game, so I've been researching weapons and tactics, this really helped! I'm going to add that Bullets between the knuckles thing.
I remember the first time I shot one of those old rifles. I was out in the wild with friends just pinking and such when one of them pulled out an old trapdoor Springfield with a ladder sight. I was offered a turn so I aimed at a large bolder across the dry creek. It must have been at least 300 yards away. I fired and didn't see any impact. I lowered the rifle and started to say "I must have missed the..." and then I saw the impact. That old 45/70 must have taken 2 or 3 seconds traveling in an huge arc to hit the target, and just where I aimed it too. It was quite a surprise as I was used to firing rifles with much higher muzzle velocities. Ever since then I always wanted one in my collection. One of the most fun rifles I ever fired. That must have been over 40 years ago and I'll never forget it.
Custer's troops were armed with single shot trap door Springfields, while many of the natives were using Henry or Winchester repeating rifles, a substantial advantage in the short range battle being waged. In addition the ammo at that time used a "folded head" construction which was often unreliable, the troopers would open the trapdoor and the head would separate from the rest of the case, rendering the rifle unusable till it was cleared. In a fast moving battle like this one a defect like that will get you killed.
I bought a Pedersoli in 45/70 last week . Down loaded powder to control recoil . Used IMR-4227 and IMR-4198 decreased by 6 grams . Recoil was manageable but still a black and blue shoulder . Great rifle .
Coming back again to this great video. As for the US Army behind the weapons development of the European Armies, the US Army recognized the limitations of the Springfield and was experimenting with bolt action rifles by the mid 1870's, only there was no pressing need to replace the Springfields as the US Government was concentrating on internal development and not rattling sabers or fighting to maintain their various empires as the European Armies were always doing. The 1885 Remington Bolt Action rifle saw use by the Navy and the Army had small quantities of Hotchkiss and Remington bolt action rifles as early as the late 1870's that could have been issued if needed for specific duties. However, it was not until the smokeless powder revolution in the 1890's came to pass that the US decided that it was necessary to adopt a new primary infantry weapon. Although 65,000 Krags had been produced by the start of the Spanish American War in 1898, there is no question that the Army, unlike the new navy, was logistically unready and did not have the necessary bureaucracy in place to ensure that the National Guard/Volunteer units going to Cuba were properly armed.
This was my favorite round to reload.. I had 2 carbines and 3 rifles in 45-70. Also a early Winchester Hotchkiss bolt action in 45 -70. I spent many a fall day in the gravel pits shooting 405 grain bullets which I made at old TV picture tubes and neat targets. Wonderful memories.
i dont mean to correct the blackpowder editor of "guns of the old west" magazine,but the first allen conversions on 1861 springfield musket was in 1865 with the springfield model 1865 trapdoor rifles chambered in .58 rimfire.
Building a traditions mountain rifle in .50 cal. First time doing it. Love it peaceful. Have a Bedford county rifle kit. Can't wait to build it. Never in a hurry. Thank you for your help. I have ammo for my rolling block thank you. I have much to learn.
I have "Metcalfe" Springfield Model 1873 Trapdoor serial number 68K bought some years back called experimental rifle. It has the contraption for Metcalfe wood box on the right hand side and a sort of oval shape cartouche on left hand side. I cannot fond any info on serial number 68K to confirm if it falls into the actual range of the 1008 rifle they converted circa 1876. The only info from RIA auction house says the S/N was between 60K to 70K. Any source to confirm this range? Thanks
My Pedersoli Trapdoor Carbine tends to shoot real low at 35 yards (around your distance). I have to aim right abovethe head of my steel silhouette target just to hit center mass. Aiming at center mass hits the wood 2x4 stand
@snoozer987 I don't think so, though I think the cav would have been better off if they had stuck with their Spencers. Most officers, given the option of providing their own rifles, chose single shot models.
I inherited one of these from my father but the firing pin was worn down and would not fire. Also, I would have liked an explanation of how to use the sight as the one on this rifle confounds me.
I might know...back in the 1970s Harrington & Richardson was the first company to reproduce the TD Springfield, but they get the cam wrong on the breech block. I fired one of these a few years ago that a buddy of mine had bought. When the gun fired the breech block flipped open and ejected the shell...very disconcerting. H&R fixed the problem, but a few early guns are still out there. They are unsafe to shoot in this condition, but it is easy to fix.
duelist1954 I took my son out to shoot our H&R today! It’s been waiting awile to shoot since I don’t hunt her anymore. 20 year old blackpowder rounds still as accurate as the day I made em. 😁 Wish I had a H&R Rolling block to go along. Not exactly a perfect replica but super fun anyways!
The first Springfield trapdoor was a 50-70 1866. Very rare rifle to attain in original condition. "The 50-70 cartridge was most famously used in the Wagon Box Fight near Fort Phil Kearney in Wyoming Territory on August 2, 1867. During this legendary encounter, a force of 31 soldiers of the 27th Infantry armed with .50-70 Springfield's, along with some civilians, fought off close to 2,000 Sioux, losing only five killed and two wounded and inflicting losses on the enemy estimated at 50 to 150 killed and 120 wounded."
Well Mike that was good shooting off hand in a heavy coat and in freezing weather. I have had three original 73s one carbine and two rifles. I am sorry I sold them. I enjoyed the video thanks again.
I hand loaded 45 70s for years. I had trap door carbines and rifles also a Winchester Hotchkiss bolt action cabine 45 70 repeater. Once I got 300 rds of original gatling gun ammo with 500 grain bullets. Most of them went off, but a few were duds that I scrapped for the lead. I used Dupont smokelss bulk powder (green color) then went to an approved smokrless load.
Hello Mike. I'm looking for that type of leather fringe jacket. It looks great on you. Would you recommend it? I have one now, and a year later it's starting to fall apart. It's made in Pakistan.
@duelist1954 Hmmm, I have a question in terms of possible other ways to carry cartridges. Since you held them in your hand ready to load, you could fire a total of 4 rounds on the go. But is it possible to tuck a couple of rounds in that glove of yours as well, letting it rest against the wrist. And for extra on this matter, is there a type of multi-loop vambrace you could wear that you can slot extra cartridges in? And even then, does said vambrace for your forearm have an extra slotting, making it one collection on the inside of your forearm and one on the outside which you could just turn the whole thing a full 180 to your comfortable position of retrieving said cartridge(s)? Given all those, if possible, would grant you a total of 17 rounds.... give or take.
The Spencer lever action carbines were used extensively by the cavalry through Red Cloud's War in the late 1860s. The Army had two problems with repeaters. !. Was insufficient power. All the cartridges chambered for lever guns until 1876 were pretty weak for military use. 2. they thought soldiers wasted ammo with repeaters. Even the Krag bolt action rifle used by the Army in the Spanish American War had a magazine cut-off to turn it into a single-shot rifle.
Austria had a trapdoor rifle, caliber 14mm rimfire in 1857. Allin "borrowed" the idea for his conversion. Early '73 tradoors were prone to jam during rapid fire. Also, primary reason we kept 45-70 cal was the requirement to be able to shoot thru a horse to hit a rider using horse as a shield. Once the Plains Indians were no longer a threat, a smaller caliber was decided on, and hence the Krag. U might have known this already, but thought I'd mention it.
I was curious if you were going to do a load video for the original Springfield trapdoor. Since they had oversized bores I don't know much about building accurate loads for them.
I was thinking along the same lines...that it might be the power and have something to do with being relatively simple, reliable and cheap....and conserve ammunition. I have always though that some units on the southern plains continued to use the Spencer. How would Spencers compare in terms of range and accuracy?
Interesting. I have an original 1884 full-size Trapdoor rifle which was my Dad's. It shoots about 12" high @ 50 yds. (rear sight bottomed out), but dead center left-to-right. I was told that these and the 1903 Springfields were designed for 300-yard battlefield shots, so naturally it would shoot high at closer ranges. (I used factory Rem ammo with the 405-grain jacketed soft-points.) Did original Trapdoor carbines exist, or just the repros? I know little about them.
Yeah, the Volunteer/Militia units that fought in the Span-Am War were still using Trapdoors. A few Home Guard and training units during World War 1 still had them.
Yeah, the troops who had them nicknamed them "Pumpkin Rollers". And they were going uphill, over open ground, against troops using 7x57mm rifles in cover. Wouldn't want to imagine that.
+Burt Hulbert In addition to the problems competing with the 7x57 using a 45/70 Punkin' roller, the Mausers used smokeless powder with a small signature and the Springfield used black powder, leaving a huge signature. This battle was the nail in the coffin for the Springfield. I have a H&R Springfield, pretty much identical to the one Mike used, a whole heaping helping of fun!
I own a 73 trap. Very good condition. My uncle gave to me. He bought it around 1970. He saved brass from the navy because 45.70 was used to shoot lines across to ships. He had a few reloaded and found out never do that again. New powder isn't compatible. Again it is beautiful. What are they worth?
They even used the Trapdoor in the Spanish-American and Filipino-American Wars. I think the explanation was that they only had enough Krags for the regular army units, so they issued all the volunteer units with the 1873 Springfield Trapdoor (can't confirm the source, though). Either way, I find it interesting that the Trapdoor and Krag guns were considered "outclassed" by the Remington Rolling Block and 1893 Spanish Mauser, respectively, that the soldiers of the Spanish Empire and the Philippine Republic were using.
Thanks for the info. I just inherited one and am looking forward to trying it out. (I'm amused by the wildly optimistic sights. Like the designer figured you'd be taking shots at 800yds in a gale. It makes a ww1 rifle look like it lacks ambition)
Bought one just like yours today, Pedersoli does a nice job with their reproduction firearms, it compares well with my originals though it doesn't have the grooved and checkered trigger.
Hello Sir, may I ask how far away is your steel target? I just purchased one and wanna hit it with some Horn. 45-70 but, idk if I should shoot it at 100 yrds or if I would be safe at 50 yrds. Thank You.
Address for Anders does not seem to be correct , need , need , need the capper ! !.... will never use Facebook so how do I do this ? As a side Love the '73 trapdoor and '63 Sharps carbines ..... BIG FUN ! ! M-4 AR ? Meh !
Up until 1876 they used leather cartridge boxes on their belts. In 1876 they introduced the linen cartridge belt...usually called the Prairie Belt. That was followed by the canvas Mills Belt. These belts went around the waist, not bandolers
I remember reading in an old Time/Life Old West book that the carbine round was loaded with 55 grains of black powder instead of the 70 grains of a full rifle load(because the short carbine barrel would waste a full load). But in the end, the .45-70 was issued to all units, cavalry and infantry. Does that sound true?
Never understood why the troops at Little Bighorn were Issued with such a slow loading single shot weapon? Wasn’t the Spencer repeating rifle available during the Civil war?
Dear Mike: Will a stronger ejection spring cure the sluggish ejection on these replica rifles? Where can I find a replacement spring that will kick out the empties like my original carbine?
Thanks mike: I've had my original carbine since the day one could buy them for $19,95 out of the classified ads in Field and Stream, so I was a little dismayed by the sluggish ejection of the Pedersoli. Should I ask for an original part or a replacement for the replica? Don
I think the carbine cartridges were originally loaded with 55 grains. Seems pretty silly to me, as hunting .45 caliber muzzleloaders of that time were routinely loaded with up to 150 grains with comparable bullet weights.
Hi. Have you used Holden’s 777 in cartridges? Would you recommend it? I know you are no fan of pyrodex and I can’t get real black powder where I live. Thanks
Triple 7 is the best B-P substitute. I have used it quite a bit in cartridges, but be careful. It is about 20% more powerful than the same volume of real black powder.
interresting, another solution to convert muzzle loaders to cartiges...like the french 1866 rifle "tabatière" (snif tabac box), a conversion from the early 1851 Minié infantry rifle (who is very rare in good condition, because near all was converted to tabatière), in parallel of the launch from the 1866 Chassepot 11mm bolt action needle percussion rifle (paper cartige), themself converted to metal cartige in 1874 (Gras rifle) This period was a fast evolution in fire arms tehnology, some years later comes the Lebel 1886 8 x 50mm cartige Rifle, bolt action, 8 cartige tube magazine, pointed ball (special concept cartige to avoid accidental shock fire), with the first smokeless powder ammunition ...
Thanks; always looking to learn more about these. Another TH-camr told me that they should shoot well at 50-100 yds. but the front sight was often filed down in the past for better long-range shots. Mine does look a bit short, and it makes sense that if these were used in open western buffalo country where 300-400-yd. shots are average, soldiers and others living off the land would seek to get as much out of these rifles as they could. My using factory ammo probably didn't help, either...
Also, I read some comments here about cartridges auto-ejecting. I've had that happen once and had to replace the hinge pin. Mine is a recent make and a Uberti, not an HR. I'm willing to speculate it was user error and I've fired many rounds through it since then, no problems. Becoming my favorite gun to shoot.
Great video, thanks for producing it, I would like to hear a little analysis on the iron sights & usage of them. I have a Springfield 1903 Mark l, manufactured 1929. I can barely see the stock rear sight. I think about replacing them but I really appreciate the originality of the current condition.
Did the poorly trained soldiers of the 7th use the technique of holding three shells between the fingers or is that something the cowboy action (SASS) crowd came up with?
You mentioned in a prior comment that any original Trapdoor in 45-70 was new manufacture and not a conversion. Were any ever made so late that they were proofed for smokeless powder or are all original Trapdoors blackpowder only? Thank you.
Mike do you reload 45-70? If so could you tell us what powder, brass, bullet weight, and who you buy bullets from? You do great reviews of old west firearms but knowing more info about old school ammo would be helpful to some of us.
Enjoyed your video. I have an original 1873 carbine. Has the newer sight which is very common and sling bar has been taken off. Is fun to shoot and more accurate then you might think. I load my own ammo which is very easy. I paid less then $400 for it a couple years ago, I still see original trap door rifles in very good condition priced at $300-500 pretty often. I don't understand why a person would buy one of these repos when so many originals out there and they can be had for less.
Another great vid. I'm curious if U.S. Army soldiers of the period, liked the 1873 Springfield Trapdoor. Were they envious of civilians, with Winchester repeating rifles?
Over the years I've owned two originals. Both were good shooters. Just check it out carefully. If everything looks sound, it probably will do fine. There is a definite trick to loading cartridges for original TD Springfields though, if you want to achieve accuracy.
a couple questions. since those are cartridges where is the actual firing pin at and how does it strike the primer? i understand the hammer is on the side and it strikes on the side but how does it hit the primer of the round. 2nd are you wearing gloves because the casings are hot to get with your fingers. i understand its cold but if warm would you still wear gloves, and would the soldiers wear gloves too?
I was just shooting my H&R cav today. Lots of fun, though I noticed it was starting to hop out of battery in recoil. Could be a problem with that set screw.
My family has an original trap door Springfield long rifle with a leather repaired original stock, (broken over someone's head if you believe my dad.) I haven't seen it since I was a kid, but I know my old man still has it. I know older black powder rifles are still sometimes shot, but how would I check for serviceability and safety and where can I source brass in such an antiquated cartridge once I figure out what it was rechambered in? I don't know if he'd be up for it, but even if all I can do is fill in some knowledge gaps of a really cool piece of our family's history, that would be worth checking out. I think the last person to shoot it was my grandpa around the early nineteen-twenties but he past on in the late sixties, a couple years before I was born. Direction? Thank you.
Any competent local gunsmith should be able to take a chamber cast and determine what cartridge it was re-chambered to, but why do you think it was rechambered? That would be unusual in a trapdoor. Most of them are still .45-70. A gunsmith can also tell you if it is safe to shoot
I believe the secret to loading the trap door is the keep the muzzle pointed down to help keep the trap door open. Very good video, thanks for sharing. I have an H & R reproduction dating back to 1976/77. I bought it after coming back from the 100th anniversary of the battle of the Little Big Horn. Only complaint I have with my gun is it has a flip down back sight and not the original "ladder" sights the originals came with.
I had the same version of H&R's Trapdoor. I learned to keep my right thumb on the right side lest the tang rear sight would gouge my hand. Winchester 405gr factory loads were not a joy to shoot. Ended up making very mild loads with cast pistol bullets and a small powder charge that needed cotton to keep it near the primer hole. Fun gun to shoot and then I got too practical and traded it for something more practical, whatever that was. I'd like to get another.
Edit/ with those near squib loads it a really fun plinker. You can reload surprisingly fast if you aren't in pain.
Over the weekend I took my Springfield Model 1884 (built in 1888) with a 32" barrel to the range and fired it on the 300 yard range. Still deadly accurate at 125 years old. Great rifles. The Buffington sight is a marvel of engineering.
I am 68 years old, I got a laztec eye surgery, the Buffington is the greatest sight ever on a weapon, you have to have perfect vision to maximize the fantastic peep sight, to go back and forth with the peep, and about 150 yards more with the rearsight, on the same sight adjustment is fantastic.
@@davidr2975 I used to be deadly with iron sights, but since I turned about 50 my eyes can't focus on the target and sights at the same time.
Was that eye surgery covered by insurance?
@@bigredc222 no it was about 2800 bucks well worth it, I can see the rear sight, front sight and target clear as a bell, my handguns too, and I am 68 years old, the only draw back, I have to wear reading glasses to see up close.
@@davidr2975 That seems like a good deal, I'll have to look into that, thanks.
@@bigredc222 actually I had rkp surgery, it's a type of lasic eye surgery, you can look up the difference, im very happy with it.
I couldn't help but think of the movie "Quigley Down Under" when you did the tucking the cartridge between the fingers. Quigley does exactly that with his Sharps rifle.
Hmmmm. Is there any evidence of this technique being actually used? The implication here was that it was a combat expedient. I doubt it. We're used to modern repeating arms, so we view the trapdoor as somewhat slow and cumbersome. They were used to stuffing muzzles (in 1866), so that action was a lot faster from the get-go. I'm willing to bet that the rate of sustained fire is a lot faster loading from the belt. Is it suggested that, after the first three rounds of this technique, you are going to have to reload your fingers before you reload your rifle? I smell Hollywood, gents...
@@daveostlund3955 It was a technique used by the British with their Martini-Henry rifles, so it kinda makes sense to me that a similar technique would be developed for America's big-bore single shot.
Hi Tobin,
I would love to see some sort of period proof that this was a technique. Have you run across any?
Many do this with double rifles having two spares ready to go for a fast reload when approaching dangerous game.
Still watching 10 years later, love the vid.
No you don't. He reading off notes in the first part. Very clear when that switches to him sharing his own knowledge/ experience.
duelist and hickok45 for the WIN
Hickok, would win
Black powder recoil feels different than smokeless powder recoil. Smokeless recoil is harder
No, mine hits where it is supposed to. I load MILSPEC black powder loads.
I have one of these. it's old as hell still has the kit in the stock
john the kit in stock was an added feature that sears did-they bought many and sold them for less than 10 dollars way back then. the government stock did not have the hole for the kit so its not AN original stock.
i had 1 also-1873 carbine
@@charleslytle7529 I believe the later carbines were manufactured with a provision to carry a 3 piece cleaning rod in the stock. Rifles wouldn't have needed this because they had a rod under the barrel.
Very cool rifle, and awesome video yet again sir. I’ve found a new favorite firearms channel. I enjoy some modern handguns & rifles but I really like some of the historical content you provide and just find leverguns, black powder rifles, etc really nostalgic. Keep em coming chief👍
Love those BPCR's. I run them in my Buffalo Classic and my M92 Lever in 45 Colt. I get about 250fps more out of the holy black in my 45 than with smokeless. The extreme spread is about 8 fps. Thanks for the great videos and Guns of the Old West is one of my favorite magazines!
About 40 years ago I encountered a guy at the range that hunted "big, toothy critters" with a big bored Ruger #1. He loaded ridiculously fast with spare cartridges between his fingers in that manner.
I learned that trick from a guy like that.
I was searching for how to shoot from this kind of rifle (Springfield 1873), how to recharge and etc., but nowhere in the Internet was a detailed explanation. Thank you for interesting review!
I have the old trapdoor longer barrel 45.70 which had belonged to my great great uncle. I was told that the Rifle had also been used to fire .410 shotgun shells amazingly. Excellent video clip....thank you for posting.
In the early 20th Century Trapdoor Springfield rifles and carbines were so inexpensive that they were almost free. Kids bought them to shoot 410 shotshells in. Many that have survived have bores nearly shot out. I own one of them.
Glad I came across your videos 👍🏻 big fan here I enjoy very much
Always wondered why, when the army already had the Spencer repeating carbine, they went back to a single shot gun. But as you explained, economy.
In 1948 I bought, from a movie supply company, an 1864 Springfield in superb condition with the original bayonet and sling for $15.00. It had a nickel plated barrel and all the stamped armory identification on the stock. It was a rifled barrel in excellent condition and shot a 50-70 rimfire cartridge, I was able to buy ten of them. I never fired the rifle, I wanted it to remain in prime condition. I later found that it was the second Allen conversion from a cap and ball to a trapdoor cartridge rifle. Last year I put it for auction at Rock Island Auction company and it sold for $1750.00.
I love mine. It feels very good in your hands and the sights are superb
"Custer's folks used them" That's not a good advertisment
It's also a fact that the Henry, and even the Spencer rifles, were superior to Trapdoor, especially at closer ranges. Custer's troops never stood a chance against he better armed Indians. He should have taken a couple of Gatlings with him. That would have evened the odds
I think Custer and his approx 300 men put up a good fight against the estimated 5,000 Natives
The Brits stood to gain from a few Gatlings at Isandlwana. Incidentally, I read somewhere that the ammo used by Custer's men caused malfunctions. The spent cartridges wouldn't properly ejects and some remained lodged in the breech. Scary thought if you've got some pissed off Native charging at you with a Henry
The problem was the early cartridges that were copper or very soft brass, later they worked extremely well.
They had Gatling guns with the troop, but Custer refused to take them along, stating that they'd only slow him down. Fool was a glory roader seeking the presidency. Funnier still to me was, when the American Indians got hold of the new spencer's, preferred over the trapdoor Springfield's, they hit the lever that broke them down for cleaning. this effectively broke them in half, and they thought they broke them and threw them on the ground. That was a story I read years ago...Sports Afield, I think? I don't totally believe that one myself. More Spencer's and fewer Springfield's would've certainly been an advantage in that battle.
Very nice thanks for sharing a piece of history.
Instead of a expensive repo, just do what I did , get a original carbine, most of the barrels are pitted and worn, get a barrel reline with the original 3 Grove rifling, it will shoot better than a original mint barrel, which are hard to find anyways, and you can shoot low pressure jacketed bullets, and you have a original carbine with a mint barrel.
I'm making a Civil War-era video game, so I've been researching weapons and tactics, this really helped! I'm going to add that Bullets between the knuckles thing.
hows that going
I there, I just got an 1884 trapdoor rifle but the ejector is Missing.... Would it be possible to get a replacement or should I leave it original?
I remember the first time I shot one of those old rifles. I was out in the wild with friends just pinking and such when one of them pulled out an old trapdoor Springfield with a ladder sight. I was offered a turn so I aimed at a large bolder across the dry creek. It must have been at least 300 yards away. I fired and didn't see any impact. I lowered the rifle and started to say "I must have missed the..." and then I saw the impact. That old 45/70 must have taken 2 or 3 seconds traveling in an huge arc to hit the target, and just where I aimed it too. It was quite a surprise as I was used to firing rifles with much higher muzzle velocities. Ever since then I always wanted one in my collection. One of the most fun rifles I ever fired. That must have been over 40 years ago and I'll never forget it.
Custer's troops were armed with single shot trap door Springfields, while many of the natives were using Henry or Winchester repeating rifles, a substantial advantage in the short range battle being waged. In addition the ammo at that time used a "folded head" construction which was often unreliable, the troopers would open the trapdoor and the head would separate from the rest of the case, rendering the rifle unusable till it was cleared. In a fast moving battle like this one a defect like that will get you killed.
I bought a Pedersoli in 45/70 last week . Down loaded powder to control recoil . Used IMR-4227 and IMR-4198 decreased by 6 grams . Recoil was manageable but still a black and blue shoulder . Great rifle .
I’ve got an 1876 and 1879 original myself. Love your vids, little late to the channel… hope you’re feeling better 🙏🙏🙏
One of my favorites, I just bought an original and love shooting it, with BP 2FFg.
Coming back again to this great video. As for the US Army behind the weapons development of the European Armies, the US Army recognized the limitations of the Springfield and was experimenting with bolt action rifles by the mid 1870's, only there was no pressing need to replace the Springfields as the US Government was concentrating on internal development and not rattling sabers or fighting to maintain their various empires as the European Armies were always doing. The 1885 Remington Bolt Action rifle saw use by the Navy and the Army had small quantities of Hotchkiss and Remington bolt action rifles as early as the late 1870's that could have been issued if needed for specific duties. However, it was not until the smokeless powder revolution in the 1890's came to pass that the US decided that it was necessary to adopt a new primary infantry weapon. Although 65,000 Krags had been produced by the start of the Spanish American War in 1898, there is no question that the Army, unlike the new navy, was logistically unready and did not have the necessary bureaucracy in place to ensure that the National Guard/Volunteer units going to Cuba were properly armed.
This was my favorite round to reload.. I had 2 carbines and 3 rifles in 45-70. Also a early Winchester Hotchkiss bolt action in 45 -70. I spent many a fall day in the gravel pits shooting 405 grain bullets which I made at old TV picture tubes and neat targets. Wonderful memories.
Does anyone have any information on a H&R special edition nickel plated us 1873 carbine, there was only 1000 made
Thank you, sir! You just helped me choose my singelshot 45-70. Awsome vid. Keep'em comin'
Those are nice, I have always had a liking for them and maybe one day I will own one..Thanks Mike, enjoy your videos
i dont mean to correct the blackpowder editor of "guns of the old west" magazine,but the first allen conversions on 1861 springfield musket was in 1865 with the springfield model 1865 trapdoor rifles chambered in .58 rimfire.
Building a traditions mountain rifle in .50 cal. First time doing it. Love it peaceful. Have a Bedford county rifle kit. Can't wait to build it. Never in a hurry. Thank you for your help. I have ammo for my rolling block thank you. I have much to learn.
I have "Metcalfe" Springfield Model 1873 Trapdoor serial number 68K bought some years back called experimental rifle. It has the contraption for Metcalfe wood box on the right hand side and a sort of oval shape cartouche on left hand side. I cannot fond any info on serial number 68K to confirm if it falls into the actual range of the 1008 rifle they converted circa 1876. The only info from RIA auction house says the S/N was between 60K to 70K. Any source to confirm this range?
Thanks
Nice video! I can see you put a lot of work in every video you make.
Appreciate that!
One of my favorite old guns! Great video. Enjoy all your black powder offerings. I've very recently gotten into black powder myself.
The 45 70 is a major round. Nice shooting as well
My Pedersoli Trapdoor Carbine tends to shoot real low at 35 yards (around your distance). I have to aim right abovethe head of my steel silhouette target just to hit center mass. Aiming at center mass hits the wood 2x4 stand
@snoozer987 I don't think so, though I think the cav would have been better off if they had stuck with their Spencers. Most officers, given the option of providing their own rifles, chose single shot models.
Can you shoot a modern round .45/,70 govt, in a trap door formal muzzle loader?
I inherited one of these from my father but the firing pin was worn down and would not fire. Also, I would have liked an explanation of how to use the sight as the one on this rifle confounds me.
I might know...back in the 1970s Harrington & Richardson was the first company to reproduce the TD Springfield, but they get the cam wrong on the breech block.
I fired one of these a few years ago that a buddy of mine had bought. When the gun fired the breech block flipped open and ejected the shell...very disconcerting.
H&R fixed the problem, but a few early guns are still out there. They are unsafe to shoot in this condition, but it is easy to fix.
duelist1954 I took my son out to shoot our H&R today! It’s been waiting awile to shoot since I don’t hunt her anymore. 20 year old blackpowder rounds still as accurate as the day I made em. 😁 Wish I had a H&R Rolling block to go along. Not exactly a perfect replica but super fun anyways!
The first Springfield trapdoor was a 50-70 1866. Very rare rifle to attain in original condition.
"The 50-70 cartridge was most famously used in the Wagon Box Fight near Fort Phil Kearney in Wyoming Territory on August 2, 1867. During this legendary encounter, a force of 31 soldiers of the 27th Infantry armed with .50-70 Springfield's, along with some civilians, fought off close to 2,000 Sioux, losing only five killed and two wounded and inflicting losses on the enemy estimated at 50 to 150 killed and 120 wounded."
Well Mike that was good shooting off hand in a heavy coat and in freezing weather. I have had three original 73s one carbine and two rifles. I am sorry I sold them. I enjoyed the video thanks again.
You have and produce some great videos.
Thanks for sharing !
Kind regards Eric Dee
hey Mike, dying to get one of these, but is there any way to adjust your sights for windage or are you screwed ?
chumley moobs the 1884 model can Adjust windage not sure about the older ones
I hand loaded 45 70s for years. I had trap door carbines and rifles also a Winchester Hotchkiss bolt action cabine 45 70 repeater. Once I got 300 rds of original gatling gun ammo with 500 grain bullets. Most of them went off, but a few were duds that I scrapped for the lead. I used Dupont smokelss bulk powder (green color) then went to an approved smokrless load.
Hello Mike.
I'm looking for that type of leather fringe jacket. It looks great on you.
Would you recommend it? I have one now, and a year later it's starting to fall apart. It's made in Pakistan.
@duelist1954 Hmmm, I have a question in terms of possible other ways to carry cartridges. Since you held them in your hand ready to load, you could fire a total of 4 rounds on the go. But is it possible to tuck a couple of rounds in that glove of yours as well, letting it rest against the wrist. And for extra on this matter, is there a type of multi-loop vambrace you could wear that you can slot extra cartridges in? And even then, does said vambrace for your forearm have an extra slotting, making it one collection on the inside of your forearm and one on the outside which you could just turn the whole thing a full 180 to your comfortable position of retrieving said cartridge(s)? Given all those, if possible, would grant you a total of 17 rounds.... give or take.
The Spencer lever action carbines were used extensively by the cavalry through Red Cloud's War in the late 1860s. The Army had two problems with repeaters. !. Was insufficient power. All the cartridges chambered for lever guns until 1876 were pretty weak for military use. 2. they thought soldiers wasted ammo with repeaters. Even the Krag bolt action rifle used by the Army in the Spanish American War had a magazine cut-off to turn it into a single-shot rifle.
Good shooting sir. Love your channel
Austria had a trapdoor rifle, caliber 14mm rimfire in 1857. Allin "borrowed" the idea for his conversion. Early '73 tradoors were prone to jam during rapid fire. Also, primary reason we kept 45-70 cal was the requirement to be able to shoot thru a horse to hit a rider using horse as a shield. Once the Plains Indians were no longer a threat, a smaller caliber was decided on, and hence the Krag. U might have known this already, but thought I'd mention it.
I was curious if you were going to do a load video for the original Springfield trapdoor. Since they had oversized bores I don't know much about building accurate loads for them.
I was thinking along the same lines...that it might be the power and have something to do with being relatively simple, reliable and cheap....and conserve ammunition. I have always though that some units on the southern plains continued to use the Spencer.
How would Spencers compare in terms of range and accuracy?
Interesting. I have an original 1884 full-size Trapdoor rifle which was my Dad's. It shoots about 12" high @ 50 yds. (rear sight bottomed out), but dead center left-to-right. I was told that these and the 1903 Springfields were designed for 300-yard battlefield shots, so naturally it would shoot high at closer ranges. (I used factory Rem ammo with the 405-grain jacketed soft-points.) Did original Trapdoor carbines exist, or just the repros? I know little about them.
weren't there still a lot of these rifles up against 7 mm mausers at San Juan hill Cuba 1898?
Yeah, the Volunteer/Militia units that fought in the Span-Am War were still using Trapdoors. A few Home Guard and training units during World War 1 still had them.
+Francis Borek dude ? just imagine going against a 5 shot Mauser in 7mm (I have one) with a black powder smoke pole that Custer used.
Yeah, the troops who had them nicknamed them "Pumpkin Rollers". And they were going uphill, over open ground, against troops using 7x57mm rifles in cover. Wouldn't want to imagine that.
Francis Borek exactly. Talk about balls.
+Burt Hulbert In addition to the problems competing with the 7x57 using a 45/70 Punkin' roller, the Mausers used smokeless powder with a small signature and the Springfield used black powder, leaving a huge signature. This battle was the nail in the coffin for the Springfield. I have a H&R Springfield, pretty much identical to the one Mike used, a whole heaping helping of fun!
I own a 73 trap. Very good condition. My uncle gave to me. He bought it around 1970. He saved brass from the navy because 45.70 was used to shoot lines across to ships. He had a few reloaded and found out never do that again. New powder isn't compatible. Again it is beautiful. What are they worth?
It is original
Thank you beautiful video, good and safe shooting!
Nicely done and informative.
They even used the Trapdoor in the Spanish-American and Filipino-American Wars. I think the explanation was that they only had enough Krags for the regular army units, so they issued all the volunteer units with the 1873 Springfield Trapdoor (can't confirm the source, though).
Either way, I find it interesting that the Trapdoor and Krag guns were considered "outclassed" by the Remington Rolling Block and 1893 Spanish Mauser, respectively, that the soldiers of the Spanish Empire and the Philippine Republic were using.
I was talking Fahrenheit, not Celsius. It was minus 12 degrees Celsius here that day
3:30 - What's on your nose?
Love the history of the Trapdoor.
It was like watching a magic show. A puff of smoke. One by one those 2 litters disappeared. AWESOME!!!
Thanks for the info. I just inherited one and am looking forward to trying it out. (I'm amused by the wildly optimistic sights. Like the designer figured you'd be taking shots at 800yds in a gale. It makes a ww1 rifle look like it lacks ambition)
Bought one just like yours today, Pedersoli does a nice job with their reproduction firearms, it compares well with my originals though it doesn't have the grooved and checkered trigger.
Hello Sir, may I ask how far away is your steel target? I just purchased one and wanna hit it with some Horn. 45-70 but, idk if I should shoot it at 100 yrds or if I would be safe at 50 yrds. Thank You.
50 yards...lead bullets only at that range.
Address for Anders does not seem to be correct , need , need , need the capper ! !.... will never use Facebook so how do I do this ? As a side Love the '73 trapdoor and '63 Sharps carbines ..... BIG FUN ! ! M-4 AR ? Meh !
Up until 1876 they used leather cartridge boxes on their belts. In 1876 they introduced the linen cartridge belt...usually called the Prairie Belt. That was followed by the canvas Mills Belt. These belts went around the waist, not bandolers
I remember reading in an old Time/Life Old West book that the carbine round was loaded with 55 grains of black powder instead of the 70 grains of a full rifle load(because the short carbine barrel would waste a full load). But in the end, the .45-70 was issued to all units, cavalry and infantry. Does that sound true?
Never understood why the troops at Little Bighorn were
Issued with such a slow loading single shot weapon? Wasn’t the Spencer repeating rifle available during the Civil war?
Yes, and Cav officers preferred it over the single shot Springfield, but the Army brass thought otherwise.
It's just a safety issue, it's so the hammer can't fall forward accidentally or if the trigger is bulled accidentally.
Dear Mike:
Will a stronger ejection spring cure the sluggish ejection on these replica rifles? Where can I find a replacement spring that will kick out the empties like my original carbine?
Donald Denison Yes. Try VTI Gun Parts
Thanks mike:
I've had my original carbine since the day one could buy them for $19,95 out of the classified ads in Field and Stream, so I was a little dismayed by the sluggish ejection of the Pedersoli. Should I ask for an original part or a replacement for the replica?
Don
Yes. I'd get an original from S&S . www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=94&pg=4
Can you use modern 45-70 ammunition or do you have to use original black powder for these rifles? Thanks
I'm not interested in guns, but I'm in love with this particular one and I don't know why.
Thanks for the video.
What was the load data for the calvery model? I figured it to be .45 Cal, 70 grains of black powder. But maybe not a 405 wt bullet?
I think the carbine cartridges were originally loaded with 55 grains. Seems pretty silly to me, as hunting .45 caliber muzzleloaders of that time were routinely loaded with up to 150 grains with comparable bullet weights.
Hi. Have you used Holden’s 777 in cartridges? Would you recommend it? I know you are no fan of pyrodex and I can’t get real black powder where I live. Thanks
Triple 7 is the best B-P substitute. I have used it quite a bit in cartridges, but be careful. It is about 20% more powerful than the same volume of real black powder.
I wonder how many rounds you can fire before the heat jams the breach?
If you use smokeless, you probably won’t be able to jam it. Blackpowder, not sure.
interresting, another solution to convert muzzle loaders to cartiges...like the french 1866 rifle "tabatière" (snif tabac box), a conversion from the early 1851 Minié infantry rifle (who is very rare in good condition, because near all was converted to tabatière), in parallel of the launch from the 1866 Chassepot 11mm bolt action needle percussion rifle (paper cartige), themself converted to metal cartige in 1874 (Gras rifle)
This period was a fast evolution in fire arms tehnology, some years later comes the Lebel 1886 8 x 50mm cartige Rifle, bolt action, 8 cartige tube magazine, pointed ball (special concept cartige to avoid accidental shock fire), with the first smokeless powder ammunition ...
Thanks; always looking to learn more about these. Another TH-camr told me that they should shoot well at 50-100 yds. but the front sight was often filed down in the past for better long-range shots. Mine does look a bit short, and it makes sense that if these were used in open western buffalo country where 300-400-yd. shots are average, soldiers and others living off the land would seek to get as much out of these rifles as they could. My using factory ammo probably didn't help, either...
WHATS YOUR OPINION OF THE PEDERSOLI TRAPDOOR IVE BEEN LOOKING AT THEM BUT I WASNT SURE OF THE QUALITY. FROM WHAT I SEE IN THE VIDEO IT LOOKS VERY NICE
I do love the sound it makes!
Also, I read some comments here about cartridges auto-ejecting. I've had that happen once and had to replace the hinge pin. Mine is a recent make and a Uberti, not an HR. I'm willing to speculate it was user error and I've fired many rounds through it since then, no problems. Becoming my favorite gun to shoot.
Just picked one of these up in Duncannon PA!!! Cant wait to get out and shoot it!
Great video, thanks for producing it, I would like to hear a little analysis on the iron sights & usage of them.
I have a Springfield 1903 Mark l, manufactured 1929. I can barely see the stock rear sight.
I think about replacing them but I really appreciate the originality of the current condition.
Anyone...does the early 1873 model ONLY shoot the black powder soft lead bullets or is a low pressure smokeless load also ok?????
If you had to purchase the full rifle or the carbine, which one would you choose and why?
Did the poorly trained soldiers of the 7th use the technique of holding three shells between the fingers or is that something the cowboy action (SASS) crowd came up with?
You mentioned in a prior comment that any original Trapdoor in 45-70 was new manufacture and not a conversion. Were any ever made so late that they were proofed for smokeless powder or are all original Trapdoors blackpowder only? Thank you.
They were all made for black powder
Mike do you reload 45-70? If so could you tell us what powder, brass, bullet weight, and who you buy bullets from? You do great reviews of old west firearms but knowing more info about old school ammo would be helpful to some of us.
Buy a reloading manual for all the info your heart could desire,dies from most manufacturers
Enjoyed your video.
I have an original 1873 carbine. Has the newer sight which is very common and sling bar has been taken off. Is fun to shoot and more accurate then you might think. I load my own ammo which is very easy.
I paid less then $400 for it a couple years ago, I still see original trap door rifles in very good condition priced at $300-500 pretty often.
I don't understand why a person would buy one of these repos when so many originals out there and they can be had for less.
Got one from 1883 for $545 USD in Texas.
An interesting and informative video. Thank you very much.
Hello Sir,
If you had to choose between the trapdoor or sharps carbine, which could you enjoy shooting more?
Another great vid. I'm curious if U.S. Army soldiers of the period, liked the 1873 Springfield Trapdoor. Were they envious of civilians, with Winchester repeating rifles?
My uncle has one of those rifles, it's original and all. The rifle works but it is a bit rusty, is it possible to repair/restore the weapon?
Sure. They are pretty easy to work on. Any decent gunsmith should be able to do it.
Over the years I've owned two originals. Both were good shooters. Just check it out carefully. If everything looks sound, it probably will do fine. There is a definite trick to loading cartridges for original TD Springfields though, if you want to achieve accuracy.
a couple questions. since those are cartridges where is the actual firing pin at and how does it strike the primer? i understand the hammer is on the side and it strikes on the side but how does it hit the primer of the round. 2nd are you wearing gloves because the casings are hot to get with your fingers. i understand its cold but if warm would you still wear gloves, and would the soldiers wear gloves too?
I was just shooting my H&R cav today. Lots of fun, though I noticed it was starting to hop out of battery in recoil. Could be a problem with that set screw.
thanks for the upload, probably among my favorite rifles. i wish someone would make a reasonably priced reproduction
My family has an original trap door Springfield long rifle with a leather repaired original stock, (broken over someone's head if you believe my dad.) I haven't seen it since I was a kid, but I know my old man still has it. I know older black powder rifles are still sometimes shot, but how would I check for serviceability and safety and where can I source brass in such an antiquated cartridge once I figure out what it was rechambered in? I don't know if he'd be up for it, but even if all I can do is fill in some knowledge gaps of a really cool piece of our family's history, that would be worth checking out. I think the last person to shoot it was my grandpa around the early nineteen-twenties but he past on in the late sixties, a couple years before I was born. Direction? Thank you.
Any competent local gunsmith should be able to take a chamber cast and determine what cartridge it was re-chambered to, but why do you think it was rechambered? That would be unusual in a trapdoor. Most of them are still .45-70. A gunsmith can also tell you if it is safe to shoot