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Do we reeeally need 2D drawings (any more)?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ส.ค. 2024
- Another attempt to make the case AGAINST 2D Drawings.
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Milos Dimcic
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There is a simple reason why drawings:
Ownership and controle over the documents.
In 60 years, a client/owner can take the folder with the 2d plans out of the archive with 100% security that he can still read and understand it.
Give me this guarantee for any (3d) data type and we can have a real discussion. So long, we should not forget for whom we are doing the work.
The deeper i get into my architecture career the less I'm convinced by this the tools we have today are just not there. They often just get in the way of the design process and suffer from a chronic lack of innovation the vast majority of architects are not programmers and most schools don't teach programming to architects outside of some basic grasshopper. We really need new and better software before we could even imagine getting rid of drawing Revit which has become the defacto package is some of the most hostile software design around, is 20 years old and feels that old. in a huge number of projects, it is chronically misused and results in worse and generic architecture. The high barrier to entry means there are some firms who make it work and the rest just struggle.
@@aldrius00 i am saying exactly the same thing.
120% agree.
Sketchup is the way to go
Eastern European and Asian architects favor a technological design process, and engineering considerations over human needs.
Revit is a mess. My work is abaut creating apps for revit and numbers of weird rules breakers and bugs is crazy. People mostly don't see it because only architects really use it. Revit look like some one made it but never test it. To draw some thing in 3d is sometimes a road through hell.
I'm with you! Hope I live long enough to see the end of 2D draftings in our business.
Could you go over how you only use 3D drawings from a practical point of view? On the construction site, reading dimensions etc.
@@aldrius00 depending on the software, you can annotate and dim a 3d cut. When you need to changes a view of that 3d detail, and you orbit and reposition it, the dim and text follow. The AEC industry has a lot to learn from aerospace and automotive.
Exactly. Manufacturing. As much as anyone loves and wants to scrap 2D drawings, the REALITY is you NEED. NEED. ABSOLUTELY NEED 2D drawings.
Perfect video, agree on everything you say. And "I was wondering what happens 5mm after that section"... what happens there in construction is that often there is used spray foam insulation to solve the problem... the problem that only exists because in the 2D drawing you didn't see it and therefore it is solved on site with a mostly non-sustainable unaesthetic patch...
I totally agree with you, coming from 3d in film and television to becoming a Landscape Architect we are told we NEED 2d drawings, sections etc. I don’t see why we are building in a 3d world but have to represent it in a 2d plane. This seems only to accomodate the old way of doing things. I get that currently building things there are existing ways of doing it. But why are we still learning the old ways, understand the old ways, but learn new ways. Fantastic thoughts and thanks for sharing. This is what drives innovation in our inudstries
While I'm modeling an AI neural network (AI driver in a car game) I get some ideas while listening to you in your field :)
After 7 years of building engineering (Revit Autocad) that now is in the past for me, I really get your point of view and totally agree on what you are saying.
Would love to hear you in an audio/video pod cast like format with others like minded as you :) Kinda refreshing to hear your thought.
Who knows, maybe I will go back to that field but as an tool developer using AI instead of being the fast horse riding engineer ;)
I’m a licensed (Thirty-Nine Years) hands-on do-everything Architect/Builder/Developer.
I’ve used Archicad's BIM Software since 2001, Version 7 (Twenty-Two Years).
With Archicad you don't draw 2D Drawings, once the structure is created in Archicad's Virtual 3D environment, Archicad automatically creates any and all 2D drawings.
I use Archicad 2D drawings, 3D Drawings, and hand-drawn 2D and 3D sketches, whether at the office or at the site on a piece of wood, on the ground, or on a sheetrock wall at every stage of the Architectural/Building Process.
The solution requires mandatory tablets & printers on construction sites, in addition to a 'BIM-Lite' which would allow any (capable) general contractor to easily swift through a 3D model and find the required sections for each job. Within 30 years I believe this will become standard procedure for all projects.
100% agree.. and we still stuck with that problem just because 2D is legal standart for architecture drawing outputs until these days, and they said 3D just a bonus and less important than 2D
I agree with you, but very few firms can do full 3D. I actually worked in modualr industry and we did everythign 3D.
Hello Milos, your video is very informative and helps people to think outside of the box. I am wondering if you could share a sample 3D construction set that can replace the traditional 2D plans, sections elevations etc. Thank you.
The so called "working drawings" are legal documents as someone pointed out in this discussion.
If something was not drawn, dimensioned and specified correctly in a 2D drawing, it could have legal consequences when things go wrong, and believe me, there are plenty of things that could get wrong in a multi billion project, not only from the architectural point of view.
3D images are great tools for better understanding of the project and details. Both are necessary and complementary.
Explain your 3d only workflow.
Could you give some practical examples of how this is done throughout a project? Seeing is believing and there was very little in this video to actually demonstrate that it is better.
Waiting for your videos 4ever !
I identify as a computational architect since 2001 and I have actually built a few, some without 2d drawing, directly generating machine readable files for the factory . But most of my work is generating 2d drawings, it is 2022 for crying out loud.
I disagree mostly because in the design proccess 3D is terrible. Very often you see the influence on projects which have been planned with BIM and they are very ugly and generic. But of course this doesnt have to be like that... I think designing with a digital twin is very delicate and something which has to be queestioned. And normaly there are design decisions also in later phases.
Next thing is the missing scale and sense of proportion, if you have a physical model or drawing on scale you get the proportions of spaces way better then on screen or on the digital representations.
I would disagree tho, sense of scale on the computer is much more complete (in 3D). The fact you can zoom in and out gives you a much closer aproximation of the real world than any model. The key difference here is how immersed you are looking at a screen VS looking at the model.
1. This immersion is directly related to how comfortable you are with computers and 3D programs
2. This immersion can be taught, just like we´re taught to read 2D drawings
3. The moment you introduce VR this difference is gone
4. With all of this in mind I cant justify the wastefulness of making models...
However:
1. The time it takes to execute a command in the computer is so fast it allows no time for reflection over the "why" and "how" you made a decision. In models this thinking occurs ever step of the way.
This can be remedied by acknowledging that it is a tendency, and learning to avoid it.
2. Most architecture tools are not designed in a way to facilitate THOUGHT to DRAWING or 3D, they are there to be used when everything is already thought of and must only be digitized. The design process in these programs is extremely hard because we don\t think in terms of extrude or offset... We think of paths, perpectives, emotions...
Take other tools into account Zbrush, Blender, etc. Learn their sculpting and 3D drawing capabilities, now your design process can flow from your mind directly into SHAPE.
This is my 2 cents on the matter, what do you think of it?
The moment universities and architecture institutions let go off these old lecturers who still teach the ways and acts of practicing architecture from 70 years ago, I think its is when we will be in the process of appreciating new ways and methods of architectural practice. Otherwise architecture will stop being a profession and just be a craft. Modern Institutions cannot be teaching in the 21st century but still use the methods of 20th century. So I say, If we want to see change, lets start from the grassroots.
I agree with you if we apply this for the level of Engineers or high qualified staff but when it comes to the lower quality staff it will be really hard for them to adjust to reading ifc or any type of 3D models
In the end, 3D models are often built with materials supplied in 2D (and 1D). Say in ship building you are interested in 2D frames and 3D surfaces smashed back to 2D cuttings of plates. Imho 2D drawings have a utility in accessing detailed GD&T data more easily than 3D models.
I am not an architect, only doing my own projects, but I think 2d is much clearer for actual measurements and parts you are interested at this very moment.
You can probably have 3d only workflow but that would require an iPad for every worker on the construction site and also their full fluency with the program, how to hide something, show dimensions, cross section etc, this is not practical.
3Ds failure point - currently - is at site. The quickest an easiest way to set out walls, columns, slabs etc is a 2d drawing with dims. The greatest 3d model in the world can’t replace this simplicity and accuracy.
While I'm doing 2d drawings throught plans and sections - I always, literally ALWAYS - finding tiny mistakes in model. ALWAYS.
If I do some 3DS Max free Art modeling - who cares. But when you do a product which will be assembled in real life, which suppose to pass certains stress... Even if you plan only to print it out - it's good to make a layout with bunch of dinamic sections and measures, which allows you to control every aspect of your future changes in this product.
Great ideas I guess its getting the construction industry to have the tools and systems to interpolate the 3-D info on site? For prefab CNC or machined elements this is a possibility, but how about brickwork, blockwork, screed, doors, i.e. the more traditional elements of construction?
Love the topic and your take on it. Could you please list the book you referenced and any others books you recommend on showing 3d details? Thank you.
What kind of resources are there if one wants to learn about this way of working?
You're telling me? In my university they are still drafting by hand.
The technology in producing and consuming is essentially where it needs to be for 3D communication. The question of how to represent 2D information that is impractical to model in 3D but critical for construction needs to be discussed in earnest, but the last hurdle will be the legal aspect - how to define what constitutes the 'drawings' portion of the construction contract for municipal permit approval and for builder tendering and contract awarding. Any ideas?
I was excited when I read the title of this video as I too find 2d boring to produce. Can you provide us a link to examples of what the building regulators / construction companies etc see when presented with a 3d model to build from?
Many thanks for your inspiring videos.
Yes, you just said what is a harsh truth in today's world, the architecture is the slowest adopter of technology.... But i think 2d is more deeply rooted to use of paper and pencil. it will exist till the existence of paper use.
Architecture profession is so far behind in adopting tech. But my students are native in software and I try and reach them to think in 3d and the outcomes don't have to be 2d.
i have spent 01 month on trying to make a 3D drawing ... nothing
This was i talk about in m.university but my prof didn’t understand
So i quit and get to therapist
BTW 3d is always represented on a 2d surface or in stereo goggles. If each viewer can navigate his own eye point, then everybody has a unique and different perspective which creates confusion.
People think what they PERCEIVE in 3d representation is true to their eventual experience of the object. It's not even close. Architects have the ability to preview in their mind's eye which is far far superior.
It is an utter waste of time to utilize a medium that can completely model all parts of a 3D 'submarine' when you only want a 'bread box'
There is a lot of ambiguity in 2D drawings, and that is good because it doesn't pretend to be a 'real' representation. People will only see what they have capacity to understand and WANT to see in drawings and it is worse in 3D representations.
I believe you have a fetishistic fascination with virtual reality, and probably with first person shooter video games too. The important part is the final product. The tools are throw aways. Modelling is a creative design tool not a production tool.
Our culture is loosing touch with what is real.
100% agreed
I love this! I think 2d is stupid and it sucks doing boring repetitive drawings. We did some 3d of the the structure for the builder and loved it. This is another level above!
2D is simple for clients to use n understand
6:46 hah this is exactly the case with my videos, too.
YES . construction NEED 2D drawings more than 3D. Why?. Just go to any construction site. There you will find the answer.
but those dont need to be super nice artsy drawings, they just need to be effective and as simple as possible (minimizing time creating) because their duration on the site is 5 minutes,
Bra’o kolegaa! :)))
Wait a minute, how could you make 3d without 2d dwg dimensions?
Is your body dimensioned by your parent?
i think kids should be taught at least some basics of software engineering or whatever one might call the ability to abstract things in various ways in order get to the essence, see connections and derive solutions from there ( in this case refactoring & DRY-principle in this case would suffice lol) , because i think most "non-programmers" (i suspect even astronomers) seem to lack this ability and sometimes it feels like explaining colors to black-and-white-creatures or to reference your subject 3D to 2D-creatures 😂 btw the latter is at least possible with dimension of time 😉 so keep on doing great to-yourself-videos publicly hehe
I agree 3d is a future , but some manufacturers and building departments still wants 2d drawings.
A more convenient way of encoding speech have been invented a century and a half ago, today audio and video recordings are ubiquitous in everyone's pocket. Yet here I am in a situation where I am encoding speech in an archaic way and you're right now torturing your eyes in order to decode the message I left for you here.
The weight of habit and the inertia of established rules and regulations make change lengthy and slow.
2D is here for a while as much as writing resisted audio recording and still does.
For a little architect office, drawing a 3d model with all the constructions details is a lost of time. Do I have to draw all the frames of a timber frame... No way!
In your world you work with big companies who knows all the new technologies and each ones can draw his speciality in 3d.
In mine not. I have to use my own computer to make the invoices of the constructors...
💥
after 40+ years of Design/Building Florida, USA ECOhomes...YES...the building industry needs 2D planwork. "Eyewash" is dandy, but...ooohhh well, you kids are sold on flash, & speed, so nothing I can write here will change your ideas. btw...Henry Ford built, or repaired, nothing. His company did, and pretty-miserable examples at that. Someday, you might post what YOUR own home looks like, friend. That's where the Truth of your words reveals itself about your own Design sense :-) The rest is...YT-chatter! Buona fortuna!
Sure, a 3D model has more detail, but it is not something that can be the basis of a contract. The 2D document is a contract and provides the proper amount of vagueness for a contractor to have to figure out the final 10% of the job. 3D to 2D seems to be the best way to do this.
i think ur full of crap, we still need elevations and floor plans, especially for construction details. Yeah I get it, using Revit does it automatically, but in Revit ur essentially drafting in 2D and a 3D gets created automatically (not the other way around). Plus on another video I think u were saying that you didn't use Revit...
Regarding 3D representation I do agree that we should implement them more in th construction documents, but you really have to keep in mind the number of people using these Drawings and number of Displines collaborating on each project. Mastering a 3D software is a real time consuming, Keep in mind that in a lot of time employees are forced to master multiple Applications to land A S I N G L E job opportunity in a specific firm because we are working in a Neich environment.
That's why having a Basic Principle such like 2D drawings and CAD capabilities is needed, THE reality is we have pills to pay. Business Owners care about making more money and they control the market, Education sectors, and Engineering unions and in case they force higher standards they will just make it harder for graduates and the current work force to find a job, while paying minimum pay to the majority.
The gap between pay and inflation is rapidly rising, as well as Robats and AI are are getting better every day resulting in a lower pay and higher unemployment rates.
Really it's a problem that no one can fix we can only sit on the side and watch it unfolding.
I DO NOT SEE THE NEED TO FORCE HIGHER STANDARDS ON THE BUILDING SECTORS AS IT IS ALREADY BEING F O R C E D O N BY THE WORK FORCE THEM SELFS IN ODRER TO LAND A JOB OPPORTUNITY.
WE REALLY NEED TO CONSIDER HOW HARD IT GOT AND HOW IT IS GOING TO BE FOR GRADUATES TO MEET WITH THESE REQUIRMENT, LITTLE BY LITTLE THE REQUIRMENT TO LAND A JOB WILL CONSUME AND EXCEED THE AMOUNT OF TIME NEEDED TO GRADUATE MEDICAL SCHOOL AND IT'S CERTIFICATION PROCESS WHILE KEEPING THE SAME PAY GAP OR EVEN WORSE IT IS MORE LIKELY GOING TO INCREASE THE SAME WAY IT ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
PEOPLE HAVE PILLS TO PAY AND FAMILIES TO FEED SO REALLY THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME ON THE LONG TERM, ONLY SHORT TERM SOULTIONS THAT ONLY WILL RESULT HARDER CIRCUMSTANCES ON THE NEXT GENERATIONS.
The problem starts with the number of parties involved, its too large and for ever changing; daily there are people returning and others joining resulting in ideological and mind set change, the only thing most people have in common is the concept of profit, every one have pills to pay, resulting for the capitalism mindset to rule. Personally, I do like capitalism because there is a really small chance that I might hit the jackpot making a greater amount of profit, it is not perfect and result in the pay gap but I am okay with it because it's unchangeable due to the large number of humans aiming to make large profit.