Big 👍 for this video. Batman is one my favourite movies of all time. Madness, mystery,art and humor all in one , Gotham city,Jack in his best role of all time(for me), Keaton and Basinger were perfect match, Partyman scene at museum ,batwing scene till the end in cathedral. Soundtrack fits in to the scenes just like that.This movie is a masterpiece .
I have to admit, I thought it was possible that Elfman perhaps composed the melodies, themes, & groundwork for "Batman", but the actual work was done by Bartek & (in large part adapted by) Shirley Walker. I carried that assumption because the Batman score that Walker conducted had a very unique sound that carried over to Warren Beatty's"Dick Tracy" & Elfman's theme for "The Flash" TV series. Shirley's own score for "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" sounds peculiarly & uncannily similar to the Elfman music. When Shirley died, Elfman's subsequent projects have little resemblance to those earlier works. In fact, Elfman's later scores for "Spider-man" & recently "Justice League" also lack the flavor of the superhero music Walker conducted. Logically, I felt that if his scores in the same genre didn't have the same gravitas as the ones Walker contributed to, they must have been the result of her efforts more than his. I was convinced after I saw a TV interview prior to the release of "Batman Returns" where Elfman point-blank says that he has no formal musical training. & admittedly suffers guilt from "imposter syndrome". I strongly felt that was what happened...until the expanded soundtracks were released. Here, one could hear the workprints Elfman composed 100% by his own hand prior to orchestration or session recording. All of the inflections, flourishes, & zingers are there. This is the proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the true & ONLY composer for those early scores. But why does his later comic book scores sound so different from his earlier ones? He explains that he NEVER listens to his previous works because he wants to move forward as an artist, not look back. He also is vehemently opposed to temp-tracks (temporary music editors & directors place on a work-in-progress). This means that Elfman rejects out of principle if a director tells him that he/she wants the movie music to sound like "Edward Scissorhands", "Beetlejuice", etc. and places those old music cues to the working cut. He will intentionally avoid repeating himself. Bartek & Walker's contributions are important elements, but the credit for this classic movie score is entirely Elfman's.
Gotta disagree with Spider-Man. It was the perfect score for that particular movie. A Batman type of score would not work for Spider-Man. And Elfman's music evolved as time went on. He talks about it on the Planet of the Apes commentary. It's worth a listen.
Note that Walker's theme for Mask of the Phantasm is an almost direct lift from the theme of Wagner's Faust. Walker's similarities to Elfman are merely coincidental.
@@grand-dadmiral Also, the point of Batman: The Animated Series was in many ways to mimic, in cartoon form, Burton's Batman films. It's why part of the score is included in the theme song for the cartoon, and Mask of the Phantasm was a movie based on The Animated Series. So it would make sense that it would carry the inflections of the score from the Burton films, which the animated series was loosely based upon, at least in terms of thematic aesthetics and tone (Gotham had the exact same 1940s/Gothic steampunk vibe in the cartoon as it did in Burton's movies).
Thank you David. His “Scissorhands” score is what got me into filmmusic in the first place many decades ago. Has a special place in my heart for him over that. Without that I wouldn’t know who John Williams or Goldsmith were
I can relate to that first anecdote so much; I only ever receive good musical ideas when I'm extremely far away from a keyboard and I have to hum into my phone like a crazy person.
Danny Elfman is such an incredible anomaly among the great film composers. His works are so unique and inspired, I'm grateful that I get to live in the same time as him
Is it though, he clearly modeled his compositional voice after Bernard Herrmann, and the great late-Romantic Russian composers like Prokofiev and Shostakovich. This, Danny admitted himself freely. I think he's a great composer, but his voice and style is totally derivative and not unique or inspired at all (again, he has said this himself). I find his most interesting work his concert music he has done in the last few years (violin concerto, ballet, chamber music), which doesn't sound much like that at all.
@@FreakieFan inspiration is one thing, but I don't think his style is really very similar to these composers (of course you can hear the inspiration but that's as far as it goes). Anyway, among the film composers (specifically the very famous ones) of the last 30 years he's really an anomaly, no one else sounds quite like him
@@Rom14DH I agree that within the small world of film composition he is very unique without many imitators, but in the larger scheme of things, he really isn't all that inspired stylistically. It really goes far beyond just 'inspiration' like you mention.
@@FreakieFanHe really is “all that inspired stylistically.” By taking inspiration from composers he listened to growing up, he developed a style that is unmistakably his and makes anyone who listens to his music think, “Yes, that’s Danny Elfman.” Also, the one you’re replying to never said that it’s “just ‘inspiration’.” He literally said that “inspiration is *one* thing” and that Elfman’s style isn’t really very similar to these composers. You’re making a straw man argument.
I agree with you - Danny Elfman's Batman scores are masterpieces and they are what made me fall for the superhero movies and they remain two of some of my favourite musical scores that I ever heard composed.
Very interesting! In 1993 I wrote a thesis about the function of this score in this film. And it´s very interesting to hear that Elfman said he just "lets the music carry itself", and still it’s so consistent through the film. The main theme is never used unless Batman, Bruce Wayne or the batman logo is in the picture. It links the three of them together. That strong symbolic use of the theme was unfortunately ruined in the "sequel".
like the difference between an engineer and programmer, one designs and the other translates to code, elfman is like the engineer who creates the sound and the composer translates it to the orchestral language
Elfman often sites Bernard Herrmann as his greatest film music influence, but he needs to confess to lifting the opening of the Batman score from Herrmann's "Sunrise" cue from Journey to the Center of the Earth. I have no problem with composers borrowing or modeling their idols, but come on!
Yeah, was literally gonna comment that myself. Herrmann was one of Elfman's greatest influences - and that score is practically the same. Seems like Elfman tooled around with that motif, layered it, and came up with the Batman march. (Actually, those 5 notes essentially make up the entire opening of the song - just layered forwards, backwards, etc. Really very brilliant, but very, VERY similar to the Hermann cue from Journey)
I'll have to hear it, but the ascending first three notes of a minor scale, followed by the descending 6th and 5th notes... that can't be THAT uncommon a melodic thing to do.
He said in some interviews that he does some movie scores for a 'silver dollar' - free, essentially - for smaller movie makers. He usually gets more creative control that way too since its a win-win. Perhaps you should contact him?
IMO best Batman film hands down, and excellent score. (Def one of the top 3 superhero film scores of all time!) Thanks for the informational break-down & history. Looking forward to more! :D
Considering they both have a pop music background and weren't trained in classical composition, I don't see any problem in their relying on an orchestrator, as long as the basic musical ideas, melodies, progressions and motifs are theirs. In Zimmer's case, he goes farther than that and appears to use ghost composers who write the whole thing with Hans getting the credit (publicly at least); which is far more dishonest.
@@sugardaddy4714 yes, I mean orchestration is an art of its own and even John Williams uses them, but paying people tons of money and getting credit for it is another topic.
@@sorartificial John Williams hasn't used an orchestrator since the early 2000's. Hence why he has done a lot less film music these last two decades than he did in the 70's-80's. Also his age of course. But to add to it, Williams' orchestrators (Herb Spencer for example on Star Wars) functioned more as a glorified copyist, rather than an orchestrator. You can find the handwritten sketch scores of all of his music online, and you clearly see the orchestrational detail is all there by Williams. His "orchestrators" just write out the full parts, and might fill in some gaps, or add doublings here or there.
@@sorartificial Yes, of course, but Herb Spencer is the one who worked as an orchestrator with Williams throughout the 70's-80's at least, until Herb's death in the early 90's. All the Star Wars movies, Indiana Jones, etc.
@@OperaGhost-jq8yz That's ridiculous, of course it's necessary, if you want to know about any subject whether it be music, art or anything really you need to have some formal training, once in a blue moon you might come across someone very talented like Elfman or Silvestri but most people are not Danny Elfman or Alan Silvestri and even if you do know some music being able to Orchestrate, create Harmonies, counterpoint and write a traditional score isn't easy, especially being able to do it well. I have no doubt that Elfman has had some classical training or at least a crash course in composition and orchestration or else he wouldn't have come up with this score.
@@iceomistar4302Elfman was a science prodigy before he got into music. I’m pretty sure a guy who can build a Geiger counter from scratch can figure out counterpoint on his own or from reading books.
Big 👍 for this video. Batman is one my favourite movies of all time. Madness, mystery,art and humor all in one , Gotham city,Jack in his best role of all time(for me), Keaton and Basinger were perfect match, Partyman scene at museum ,batwing scene till the end in cathedral.
Soundtrack fits in to the scenes just like that.This movie is a masterpiece .
I have to admit, I thought it was possible that Elfman perhaps composed the melodies, themes, & groundwork for "Batman", but the actual work was done by Bartek & (in large part adapted by) Shirley Walker. I carried that assumption because the Batman score that Walker conducted had a very unique sound that carried over to Warren Beatty's"Dick Tracy" & Elfman's theme for "The Flash" TV series. Shirley's own score for "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" sounds peculiarly & uncannily similar to the Elfman music.
When Shirley died, Elfman's subsequent projects have little resemblance to those earlier works. In fact, Elfman's later scores for "Spider-man" & recently "Justice League" also lack the flavor of the superhero music Walker conducted. Logically, I felt that if his scores in the same genre didn't have the same gravitas as the ones Walker contributed to, they must have been the result of her efforts more than his. I was convinced after I saw a TV interview prior to the release of "Batman Returns" where Elfman point-blank says that he has no formal musical training. & admittedly suffers guilt from "imposter syndrome".
I strongly felt that was what happened...until the expanded soundtracks were released. Here, one could hear the workprints Elfman composed 100% by his own hand prior to orchestration or session recording. All of the inflections, flourishes, & zingers are there. This is the proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the true & ONLY composer for those early scores.
But why does his later comic book scores sound so different from his earlier ones? He explains that he NEVER listens to his previous works because he wants to move forward as an artist, not look back. He also is vehemently opposed to temp-tracks (temporary music editors & directors place on a work-in-progress). This means that Elfman rejects out of principle if a director tells him that he/she wants the movie music to sound like "Edward Scissorhands", "Beetlejuice", etc. and places those old music cues to the working cut. He will intentionally avoid repeating himself. Bartek & Walker's contributions are important elements, but the credit for this classic movie score is entirely Elfman's.
I LOVE this comment.
Gotta disagree with Spider-Man. It was the perfect score for that particular movie. A Batman type of score would not work for Spider-Man. And Elfman's music evolved as time went on. He talks about it on the Planet of the Apes commentary. It's worth a listen.
Note that Walker's theme for Mask of the Phantasm is an almost direct lift from the theme of Wagner's Faust. Walker's similarities to Elfman are merely coincidental.
@@grand-dadmiral Also, the point of Batman: The Animated Series was in many ways to mimic, in cartoon form, Burton's Batman films. It's why part of the score is included in the theme song for the cartoon, and Mask of the Phantasm was a movie based on The Animated Series. So it would make sense that it would carry the inflections of the score from the Burton films, which the animated series was loosely based upon, at least in terms of thematic aesthetics and tone (Gotham had the exact same 1940s/Gothic steampunk vibe in the cartoon as it did in Burton's movies).
Thank you David. His “Scissorhands” score is what got me into filmmusic in the first place many decades ago. Has a special place in my heart for him over that. Without that I wouldn’t know who John Williams or Goldsmith were
I can relate to that first anecdote so much; I only ever receive good musical ideas when I'm extremely far away from a keyboard and I have to hum into my phone like a crazy person.
Danny's Batman score was HUGE for me in 89. Especially the 'Descent Into Mystery' cue. That is what inspired me to pursue film composing.
His score for Sleepy Hollow is what really got me into scores and creating music.
Initially, I felt the Sleepy Hollow score was muddled and "over" composed. However, over time it has become one of my favorites of his work.
Danny Elfman is such an incredible anomaly among the great film composers. His works are so unique and inspired, I'm grateful that I get to live in the same time as him
Is it though, he clearly modeled his compositional voice after Bernard Herrmann, and the great late-Romantic Russian composers like Prokofiev and Shostakovich. This, Danny admitted himself freely. I think he's a great composer, but his voice and style is totally derivative and not unique or inspired at all (again, he has said this himself).
I find his most interesting work his concert music he has done in the last few years (violin concerto, ballet, chamber music), which doesn't sound much like that at all.
@@FreakieFan inspiration is one thing, but I don't think his style is really very similar to these composers (of course you can hear the inspiration but that's as far as it goes). Anyway, among the film composers (specifically the very famous ones) of the last 30 years he's really an anomaly, no one else sounds quite like him
@@Rom14DH
I agree that within the small world of film composition he is very unique without many imitators, but in the larger scheme of things, he really isn't all that inspired stylistically. It really goes far beyond just 'inspiration' like you mention.
@@FreakieFanHe really is “all that inspired stylistically.” By taking inspiration from composers he listened to growing up, he developed a style that is unmistakably his and makes anyone who listens to his music think, “Yes, that’s Danny Elfman.” Also, the one you’re replying to never said that it’s “just ‘inspiration’.” He literally said that “inspiration is *one* thing” and that Elfman’s style isn’t really very similar to these composers. You’re making a straw man argument.
I agree with you - Danny Elfman's Batman scores are masterpieces and they are what made me fall for the superhero movies and they remain two of some of my favourite musical scores that I ever heard composed.
He listened to Bernard Herrmann's Journey to the Center of the Earth...that's how.
Very interesting! In 1993 I wrote a thesis about the function of this score in this film. And it´s very interesting to hear that Elfman said he just "lets the music carry itself", and still it’s so consistent through the film. The main theme is never used unless Batman, Bruce Wayne or the batman logo is in the picture. It links the three of them together. That strong symbolic use of the theme was unfortunately ruined in the "sequel".
It’s common for trained professionals to be offended by someone who learned on the job.
Suck it up. Elfman has proved himself through the years.
This is awesome thanks!
like the difference between an engineer and programmer, one designs and the other translates to code, elfman is like the engineer who creates the sound and the composer translates it to the orchestral language
Tim Burton + Danny Elfman.. what a wonderful combination. They really complement each other
Elfman often sites Bernard Herrmann as his greatest film music influence, but he needs to confess to lifting the opening of the Batman score from Herrmann's "Sunrise" cue from Journey to the Center of the Earth. I have no problem with composers borrowing or modeling their idols, but come on!
Yeah, was literally gonna comment that myself. Herrmann was one of Elfman's greatest influences - and that score is practically the same. Seems like Elfman tooled around with that motif, layered it, and came up with the Batman march.
(Actually, those 5 notes essentially make up the entire opening of the song - just layered forwards, backwards, etc. Really very brilliant, but very, VERY similar to the Hermann cue from Journey)
I'll have to hear it, but the ascending first three notes of a minor scale, followed by the descending 6th and 5th notes... that can't be THAT uncommon a melodic thing to do.
Great composer. I want him to score my movie...
He said in some interviews that he does some movie scores for a 'silver dollar' - free, essentially - for smaller movie makers. He usually gets more creative control that way too since its a win-win. Perhaps you should contact him?
@@sirollyfortune My movie is not small, though...
Thanks
IMO best Batman film hands down, and excellent score. (Def one of the top 3 superhero film scores of all time!) Thanks for the informational break-down & history. Looking forward to more! :D
It's funny how composers went after Danny for working with one orchestrator but nobody goes for Hans for having a corporation of talent behind him
Considering they both have a pop music background and weren't trained in classical composition, I don't see any problem in their relying on an orchestrator, as long as the basic musical ideas, melodies, progressions and motifs are theirs. In Zimmer's case, he goes farther than that and appears to use ghost composers who write the whole thing with Hans getting the credit (publicly at least); which is far more dishonest.
@@sugardaddy4714 yes, I mean orchestration is an art of its own and even John Williams uses them, but paying people tons of money and getting credit for it is another topic.
@@sorartificial
John Williams hasn't used an orchestrator since the early 2000's. Hence why he has done a lot less film music these last two decades than he did in the 70's-80's. Also his age of course.
But to add to it, Williams' orchestrators (Herb Spencer for example on Star Wars) functioned more as a glorified copyist, rather than an orchestrator. You can find the handwritten sketch scores of all of his music online, and you clearly see the orchestrational detail is all there by Williams. His "orchestrators" just write out the full parts, and might fill in some gaps, or add doublings here or there.
@@FreakieFan I don't know about that one, are you familiar with Conrad Pope.
@@sorartificial
Yes, of course, but Herb Spencer is the one who worked as an orchestrator with Williams throughout the 70's-80's at least, until Herb's death in the early 90's. All the Star Wars movies, Indiana Jones, etc.
Very nice video, big fan of your work. Thank you
0:59 Ghostbusters
Do you have a Patreon? I would love to contribute.
Elfman made this film so much bigger than it is
In an airplane bathroom? What a spot to be doing it in lol 😆
This just reinforces why Elfman always seems like a hack of a composer.
Really? Because this seems to suggest the exact opposite.
How so? Because he's relatively untrained? Because formal training really isn't necessary.
@@OperaGhost-jq8yz That's ridiculous, of course it's necessary, if you want to know about any subject whether it be music, art or anything really you need to have some formal training, once in a blue moon you might come across someone very talented like Elfman or Silvestri but most people are not Danny Elfman or Alan Silvestri and even if you do know some music being able to Orchestrate, create Harmonies, counterpoint and write a traditional score isn't easy, especially being able to do it well. I have no doubt that Elfman has had some classical training or at least a crash course in composition and orchestration or else he wouldn't have come up with this score.
Did you watch this video? The conclusion of the video is the exact opposite.
@@iceomistar4302Elfman was a science prodigy before he got into music. I’m pretty sure a guy who can build a Geiger counter from scratch can figure out counterpoint on his own or from reading books.
We got the same film score taste🤌