Why you should never buy a cheap laminated motorcycle jacket
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ส.ค. 2024
- In this review, we’re going to talk to you about why, if you’ve managed to persuade yourself that you definitely do need a laminated motorcycle jacket, we’re going to talk to you about why you should not buy a cheap one.
We do not think that laminated gear offers the best solution for most bikers. Most of us will be better off in drop-liner gear. It will offer better value, it will be more comfortable, it will be warmer, it will be more reliable, and it will be more than sufficiently waterproof. For those very rare occasions where it’s not, a relatively inexpensive waterproof will offer a solution that is better than lamination.
Of course, you may be the rider who really does need laminate gear. And for some, it has to be admitted, laminate is not only a way to go, but sometimes the only way to go. If it is, however, you may just need to bite the bullet, and pay up for the proper stuff. And that’s because, as we have seen, not all laminated clothing is born equal. Buy a cheap laminated suit, and there’s a good chance you’ll need another one down the road. What is it they say? Buy cheap, buy twice; and nowhere does this apply more than it does to laminated gear.
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No great surprises, a Rukka is better put together than an Oxford jacket, this is as you’d expect given the price difference.
Like everything, it’s about managing expectations.
I bought a Mondial suit l when they were first released. I wanted kit that would not wet out like my previous gear and if I needed to put an over suit on in very back weather then so be it.
The suit has many of the features I wanted and was very comfortable from the off. Did I expect it to be upto Rukka standard, of course not.
However, this kit has been outstanding. It’s never let me down and I don’t bother with the oversuit anymore and believe me it’s been tested. Full disclosure, I recently had to buy second jacket after a zip broke which was my fault. It cost me £180.
I did at that point consider pushing the boat out and trying a Rukka or REVIT but when the Oxford kit has performed so well, has features I want, I find it hard to justify the extra cost. Oxford have recently updated the Mondial and introduced a new level 2 jacket that looks very impressive.
As you say CP, you pays your money….
Out of all the brands I've tried including Klim, Rev-it, Halvarssons the CLEAR winner in build quality is Rukka - hands down the best kit currently for sale!
Have you tried Hideout Hi-Pro or BKS 100SX made-to-measure textiles? 😉
I bought my laminated jacket as they don't wet out, which is ideal for touring/camping as they dry out quicker. I also find them a lot lighter than the equivalent drop liner jacket. Which makes it more comfortable to wear, and more adaptable to multi seasons to add warmth layers at the cold times of year or less layers in the warmer climates with the direct venting.
Laminate jackets are not lighter. They are less bulky, but with all that taping, and sometimes a third layer they are, in principle, and on a pari-pasu basis, usually heavier. CP
@@Motolegends So that's why all ultra light outdoor gear which are laminated are the lightest on the market... Your answer was false yet again.
Thanks Chris. Excellent video. Clear rationale, well explained.
Loving these videos. Thanks guys
Great video Chris, thanks. I found out that I didn't know that a removable waterproof and drop liner are different things. Also, this video and the way you approached the subject means I will be thinking very differently when buying my next waterproof jacket 👍
Great video! Very informative. I think the bottom line is to look at your riding and make a decision. I will never give up my Klim Latitude jacket and pants. It performs beautifully for the type of riding I do and where I live. Very comfortable as well. In the Summer I do wear the the Klim Induction Pro. Best!
Great Video as always!
Very good video, very informative as always, thank you! I am very happy with my Merlin Edale jacket but to be honest: I always look out for the first café when it starts to rain.
Not going against the expert advice here as I do agree.
I did however purchase another motorbike last year so that I could get out in the winter and could not afford top of the range adventure/touring kit so bought a set of Oxford Mondial textiles at £320 thinking as long as they last a year I’ll upgrade as and when I can afford. A year has past and they are still performing way above expectations.
I must say that the Mondial have been excellent in all conditions -5 to 30c touring and green laning and 100% waterproof so far…….
I could buy a new set every year if required for five years bin them and still have spent less than some of the branded laminate suits.
Will I still buy a top of the range suite when I can afford? Yes!
Is there now suits on the market that can compete with top brands for a lot less cash? Yes!
Ive got the same oxford mondial jacket, brilliant in all weather love the vents, love the price. Well recommended.
I've had Mondial jacket and trousers for over 18 months. Other than the neck being a bit low it is very comfortable, has good ventilation and has so far remained completely water proof. To put that into context I've toured with at and ran through a couple of thunderstorms with the heaviest of rain.
Great informative film. thank you Dr Chris. More pens in the top pocket of that white coat please......
Brilliant very helpful
Interesting. I have learned more from this video than I thought I would be interested in. :) 7:00 Yes, valid arguments. I do commute to work for longer than an hour either way, and yes, that's why I have a waterproof in my bag. Only once this didn't work out: When I started in friendly sunshine and got into heavy showers on the motorway, where I couldn’t stop to put the waterproof on. But would I have put on a laminated jacket in the beginning if I had one? I doubt it. :)
I waited 2 years and got the Belstaff LWU now. Best suit ever for me. However not the cheapest. Thanks Chris
Is it really that good?
@@danthechippie4439 Yes it is. Try it. It has everything plus Style. Bought the grey one.
Love my Scott !
Just got the situation that GoreTex refund me the full price of my over 5 years old and widely used (about 60'000 km) Rukka jacket. Great service of GoreTex...
And now I am watching all of your vids to figure out, which jacked should be the next... Rukka Kingsly, Klim Kodiak, Stadler 4All... unfortunatlly the Belstaf long Way up does not come in all black...
Greetings from Switzerland
Ok, I think we need to identify what "cheap" means exactly...
I have an Oxford Mondial which is like half the price of my previous Halvarssons suit and for my riding habits it performs just as good, if not better..
I have been on a torrential rain for 4-5 hours nonstop and yes it did leak a bit (not much), but so as the Halvarssons, but the Ox is more lightweight and more comfortable (at least for me) and has more vents for hotter days.
I was biased a bit towards to more top end brands but the reality is that the Mondial is just the "do it all" kinda set for me without killing my wallet..
So I think there are "cheap" stuff out there def worth looking at.
If you’re happy, then fine, but I think my point is about the long-term reliability. And if you want aa long-term solution you need to go Gore-Tex for all the reasons I mentioned. CP
@@Motolegends I agree with you of course... my point is just that in reality most of the average rider cannot afford a top end gore tex suit also don't ride 10k+ miles per year half of them in a heavy rain, so is good to have options on the lower price range as well. There is definitely a market for it, and if a certain product really is bad, it won't be selling.
As good as your videos are, I'd love to see you do one on the proper care, washing and cleaning of Gore-Tex and other nylon motorcycle jackets. There are many products that advertise their use to clean waterproof garments. I suspect improper washing could do more to damage the waterproof-ness of a jacket that normal wear. Perhaps you already have, and I'm just not aware of it? If not, time to set up the camera and lights in the laundry room!
Hi Chris. I’m in the market for a new textile suit. I’ve decided on the Stadler 4 all pro trousers.
Which I will purchase from you.
Any reason you recommend the Stadler Supervent 3 Jacket as opposed to the 4 all pro jacket ?
I’m curious.
Many thanks.
Neil
I have used Held GTX Evo pants and jacket, both 3 layer goretex over waterproof garments, no problems with any rain, just over 5 months have RST Pro Series Ranger suit, with breathable overjacket etc, no problems with rain in gale-force winds on M62 for over 5hrs, so both sets at current prices cost less than 5xl rukka nivala, as nice as rukka , no but still a good fit for me.
Fascinating video as ever! However...I bought a Richa Infinity Pro 2 laminated jacket (partly on the basis of the motolegends review) and I've done a considerable number of miles over the past couple of years in pouring rain in it. So far it's been absolutely bombproof (and still is). It's warm in winter, nicely vented in summer (although bit too warm for the current weather). I've always assumed I'd need to take a waterproof over-jacket on any touring trip, for those truly horrendous conditions when - no matter how good your gear is - you just want to be able to take the wet stuff off at your destination and not have to dry it out.
For me, it was the perfect choice and far preferable to drop liner or removables (both of which I've also had). It is my go to jacket for nearly all seasons (except extreme heat).
All of that said - the reflective piping came off in the first month on both the original jacket and the replacement. You can definitely tell where some corners were cut. But for me, none of those corners are anything I care about. However...I accept I have way too much bike gear, so I can pick and choose multiple combinations (currently a revit mesh jacket with an oxford over jacket when rain is around, or a richa leather jacket) to suit conditions.....so yeah....I guess that's a privileged position compared to many. But if I could only keep one jacket it would be the Infinity Pro 2 laminated for sure.
Or the Rukka I've just realised I need in my life after watching this video 🤣🤣
@martinchandler9469, your experiences with the Richa Infinity Pro 2 jacket are an exact mirror of mine...I too bought the jacket after having watched Chris' review and to this day am very happy with it, even though the reflective piping on mine has also fallen off, but that's a minor detail, as I tend to wear a rain jacket (Oxford) on top of the Richa whenever it gets dark and/or rainy. Other than that, no complaints whatsoever about the Richa. Does what it says on the tin. I"ve also got a Richa Scrambler 2 wax jacket as an alternative.
@@ursjungo5896 Yeah the piping issue came up in a review as well, so clearly it's an issue that Richa should know about (and perhaps sort out?). But yes, like you I have the Oxford rain jacket for proper rain - and a hi-viz for dark riding (which I tend to avoid if possible....is that pothole? Badger? Diesel slick? Shadow?). It's an awesome jacket though i'd say. Served me well on multi-day touring trips!
I think the Richa jackets margins weren't as slim as the Oxford jackets so they may have used more tape and had better quality assurance etc
I bought the very same jacket (the Richa Infinity Pro 2 but not from Moto Legends) for the very same reason and returned it after the first downpour I got caught in. I got soaked on my sleeves through the forearm zippers (yes, they were properly closed), on my chest (from the main zipper i reckon) and, oddly enough, on my right shoulder where there is no zipper. it was a pity, honestly, because the jacket was extremely comfortable. I ended up buying a Revit Gore-Tex jacket and, so far so good, although I have caught some water up my wrist cuffs. No more dodgy membranes for me, thank you very much 😉
@@mpimpaophoto2075 Wow - that's unfortunate! I'm guessing there were some QC issues along the way (obviously I suppose, given your experience!). Thankfully mine's kept me dry in a few savage downpours.....so far!!
I always wore drop liner or removable liner gear and wore mesh and carried waterproofs for summer touring. Going to try laminate for venting reasons. I wonder about folks that spend 20+ grand on a bike and then can’t “afford” expensive gear or proper maintenance. I could have bought a Gore-tex jacket before, just wasn’t sure of the value for money proposition.
thank you - you saved me a Grand
Loving that look 😊
Yep. The lab coat feels appropriate for this video especially!
Hi Chris, do you not recommend the Richa Infinity 2 Pro anymore? If so, what changed?
We did have a few problems with it. CP
I bought Lindstrands/ Halvarsson's Sunne jacket, so a mid level jacket in terms of quality and price. It started leaking after nearly two years. The membrane fell apart in some parts of the jacket.
Luckily I got the refund.
No more laminated jakcets or pants. As chap in the cap said it is much more complicated material
Hard rain…five kilometers and dropliner suit was soaked wet…no dropliner for me anymore.
Shit, what you wearing now?
@@danthechippie4439 Klim Latitude now.
With dropliner I wasnt wet but totally wetted suit is extreamly cold...
A drop-liner jacket will not wet out in 5kms, even though it might get damp. If you had watched the entire video, you might have realised that there’s an inexpensive solution to your problem that would give you a solution that is better than laminate, that laminates are not so nice to wear, and that they are prone to failure. Unless, of course, you go Gore-Tex. CP
Recently did a 1000km ride in a day with 3 hours of really bad weather. Once it stopped raining, my goretex gear (pant and jacket), dried I less than 30 minutes. Well, 30 Celsius 😊
What if several of my bikes don’t have luggage for carrying extra clothing? If I am riding in the changing weather in fall, winter, and spring here in the southern US both temperature and precipitation can be quite variable. Pulling a liner out to carry it is a no go and drop liner garments don’t vent. They just pretend to. I abhor the look of tank bags and I think wearing backpacks and the like is dangerous. I may not “need” laminated gear but it does sound quite convenient, and it keeps me from having to hang awkward and ugly luggage to every bike.
Hi, if you'd wear a waterproof outer membrane, I presume you can do with any motorcycle jacket underneath, not necessarily waterproof (incl liner) jackets.
The problem with "waterproofs" is (unless it is raining when you start out) you have to pull over to put them on. And as any rider knows, we always think "we can ride out of it." By the time we admit defeat, and do pull over to don the rain gear, we are already soaking wet.
Always better to have it and not need it as opposed to needing it and not having it.
Ive found gore-tex to be a ripoff, you pay extra for the brand and then they wond stand behind their warranty, so whats the point? waste of money. I've been really happy with the waterproofing on my house brand laminated Alpinestars Monteira and Fly Racing Off Grid, both under 400gbp with excellent waterproof taping jobs and vents, why spend 200gbp more for 1% more waterproofing, are we scubadiving or riding motorcycles?
So we are back to Klim Marrakesh + Scott Waterproof ??
For the leisure rider, that would be our chosen route. But some people want a traditional suit. And certainly the Marrakesh doesn’t always work for the long-distance commuter. CP.
What brand and model is this cheap jacket you stripped off?
EDIT: you don't need to answer anymore. It's the Oxford Mondial Advanced in black.
I have the olive one and bought it for 150-160 pounds thus I compare it to cheap drop liner jackets, not to any GORE jacket. I owned the Held Zorro (about the same price) and Oxford id much better on term od usability and fitment for my body type. You should rathet compare this Oxford Mondial to drop liner from other manufacturer.
I think you'll find he was showing the difference between the construction of an expensive laminated jacket and cheap laminated jacket. He did show the construction of a drop liner, it was far more simple and therefore is cheaper to make well and has less chance of tapes failing.
@@medler2110 yes, I got the point. However we need to remember about the personal preferrences. I used the drop liner Held Zorro and it wasn't meeting my expectations. Spending the 500 pounds on Gore was not the case for me, buying the 3 layer jacket was neither, so the relatively cheap laminate jacket was a golden shot. And at least for me the advice to buy the 160 pounds drop liner, instead of laminate in the same price, is useless. But again: every body decides for his own 🙂
My Mondial jacket has so far remained completely waterproof in the 18 months I've owned it and I've ridden through plenty of rain including a couple of pretty severe storms with extremely heavy rain.
@@pielight7449 thanks for sharing your experience on the Mondial
what Z liner can keep you dry after 4h riding under rain?
In four hours you won’t necessarily get wet in a drop-liner jacket because the water should still not get through the membrane, but the water taken on between the chassis and the membrane may well make you feel wet. Often, however, whatever jacket you wear, after four hours, the water will have found another way of getting in. But what I am saying is that a drop-liner jacket is not the solution in four hours of rain, unless you wear a waterproof over the top. CP
@@Motolegends most of drop liner membranes are 5000-10000mm.
Except Goretex
So which items in the Motolegends should we avoid buying?
What we are trying to do is explain to people what kind of gear they need for their kind of riding. I’m sure this goes over the heads of some. CP
What a load of rubbish. I've had my Oxford Hinterland for a year and a half, it's fantastic kept me bone dry in some awful weather, still looks like new after commuting everyday in all weathers in the north of Scotland and it only cost £200.
You yourself recommended the Richa infinity two pro which although not dirt cheap is still not an expensive jacket relative to competition.
A bit harsh! You’ve had your Oxford jacket for just 18 months, and what I said was that cheap laminates are not a long-term proposition. 18 months is not long-term. And with the Richa, all I am prepared to say is that it didn’t take us long to discontinue it! CP
@@Motolegends I had a problem with mine, it leaked.... it was replaced by ML free of charge, although I'm sure the replacement is much tighter than the original one (so perhaps sizing could also vary due to poor/low quality control). Two years later and I no longer use it, but I have to say, if you became aware that the Richa product was not fit for purpose then bringing this to the attention of customers/buys would have been appreciated. As it stands Richa, got their money, ML highly recommended the product and from what I was told at the time, sold like hotcakes, customer gets an inferior product.
I have had my oxford Hinterland for just over 2 years and 15000 miles and it has been through a few downpours including a 4hr one with no failures- the last was an hour or torrential rain earier this year after a bike service. To be fair to the Hinterland it has only been out just over 2 years so it is hard to get any better data than that yet :D. It was in my price range, very protective (for a waterproof textile jacket!) and wears nicely. I get the argument for drop liner plus oversuit but that feels ever so much faff, I just like to pop a jacket on and ride. I also totally understand the longevity argument and maybe you and I have been lucky so far and it is highly possible that a gore lined jacket costing 2-3 times as much might last longer - but some of us can't afford that. Motolegends obviously feel the same way as they do offer laminated (non gore) jackets starting at £379 - ignoring the Richa ! (the Hinterland retails at £329 these days! The "featured" Mondial here is £299 rrp altho discounted elsewhere Im sure).
@@danjf We discontinued it when we started to experience problems. For many leisure riders doing a few thousand miles a year, it was fine. But as soon as we realised there was an issue we pulled it. Obviously, we didn’t go back to every buyer, many of whom were happy with theirs, to say there was a problem. Anyone who had an issue within the warranty period got a refund or a replacement.
There was nothing wrong with the Infinity Pro, but knowing what we now do, we would not offer it to high-mileage riders. And I suppose that’s why we’ve posted this video. Laminate jackets are expensive to make. Cheap ones may get through a couple of years, but probably not a lot more. CP
@@Motolegends Thanks Chris... bit confused that you say that you pulled it once you realised there was an issue, then you go on to say there was nothing wrong with the Infinity Pro. As I say mine leaked (also the reflective detailing peeled off), it was replaced so job done. But I wouldn't trust the replacement in a downpour now, luckily I'm a fair weather rider so no problem but I am interested to know what the common issues were.
By the way the Richa Atlantic Goretex gloves I also got from you have been absolutely fine.
the only issue I have - I love your videos, but the Doctors' coat is just not YOU - Cardigans much better!
Looks like stay away from Oxford products... many thanks for an excellent video!!!
Why… because we don’t sell cheap laminated jackets.
No, we sell quite a few, although we won’t go near the really cheap stuff. What we say is that, for many people, an inexpensive laminate jacket will probably be fine. It just won’t do it’s job for a long time; and so if you do huge miles, there are better options. CP.
Don't buy a cheap laminated motorcycle jacket says the guy who sells expensive laminated motorcycle jackets.
Have to say that this is one of the few videos of yours where I disagree with something.
Firstly, putting a rainjacket on top of any waterproof jacket only makes sense in two cases and that's either if you have to be dry at your destination and don't want to change (e.g. restaurant, cinema) or if drying will be impossible at the destination (e.g. tent camping). If you have to put on an additional waterproof layer in any other circumstance, you either didn't pay enough for a good membrane or you did and are wasting it.
Secondly, in my experience, laminated garments actually are the best solution for everyone who wants to stay dry. I really don't understand why you would think that a drop liner might be superior. The lack of venting alone is a huge disadvantage.
Let me just pick out a single claim that you make: You say drop liners are sufficiently waterproof for 99% of rides. I think I know what you mean and I kind of agree, but this is still an interesting statement, because it implies that they're not actually waterproof at all. There is no "waterproof at up to light rain" - it either leaks, or it doesn't. This certainly concurs with my experience that higher-end laminates are more (and indeed 100%!) waterproof. This might not have a strictly technical reason, but may simply be related to the amount of care that is taken during manufacture. Because my experience also shows that even reputable manufacturers can systematically fail at putting drop liners together. Their generous DWR just covers that failure up pretty good.
Nothing quite like arriving at your destination after riding for hours in the rain, and the outer shell of your riding jacket has become saturated. It drips, and drips, and drips. Have to hang it up in the bathtub!
Buy yourself a £50 waterproof, and enjoy the benefits of a drop-liner jacket, with waterproofing that is superior to that of a laminate jacket. CP
There's no reason to use a drop liner membrane when there's laminated membranes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either naive or stupid.
Or just ignorant. Watch the video, and listen. For most people a drop-liner is, overall, a better proposition. We probably sell more laminate jackets than anybody in the country, so we are not against them. We merely think they are not for everybody. And we believe that, because they are so difficult to manufacture, cheap ones will fail in the long term. CP
@@Motolegends I watched it and have proven you wrong on all accounts in this video and in earlier ones. If you still want to argue we can do it claim by claim. No more difficult to manufacture than a Z-liner. This isn't rocket science. It's common sense which you lack. Or are you so stupid that you think Z-liners aren't taped. Higher price is not always an indication of better quality. At least not in todays market. I don't care about your pompous ego and how much you claim to sell when you get the basics wrong. Real bikers know what works and what doesn't. It doesn't matter concerning waterproofness if you have a laminate or Z-liner if you ride a few km to work on a sunny day like you do. Concerning venting it does because Z-liners vents are a scam.
@@jasonkillsformomy Wow!!! If you have a credible point to make it is sadly being lost within the floury rhetoric and insults - not a good way to get your thoughts across, shame perhaps we could have learned something. I think the point ref taping is that their needs to be lots more of it on a laminated product so more chance for failure and water ingress.
Are you a butcher?
Putting rain gear on top of waterproof clothing is on of the the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Any real biker knows that the more layers the Michelin man effect comes to play and you can't ride as well. And stop glorifying Gore-Tex. It's overrated and the company bullies manufacturers. The only reason it's used so much is because of marketing and Bullying.
@@pamvarnsverry2444 Real as in riders that rides in all weather and long distances and not just short trips to work or to the pub in good weather.
Gore-Tex has made ultimatums to clothing manufacturers that they can only use their waterproof membrane in their clothing and not any other membrane manufacturers. For example if a clothing manufacturer has one jacket with Gore-Tex and another one with for example Sympatex then Gore has said that they can't use any Gore product if they also use another manufacturers membrane. That was in the past. Today Gore allows manufacturers to use other manufacturers membrane if Gore-Tex is used in the top of the line clothes.
@@pamvarnsverry2444 No it doesn't. For example if a clothing manufacturer who doesn't use Gore products wants to make a jacket with Gore windstopper they not only have to make that jacket the top of the line windproof jacket, but also change their top of the line waterproof jackets membrane to Gore-Tex or create a new more expensive top of the line with Gore-Tex.
@@jasonkillsformomy So basically encouraging manufacturers to up their game and produce better products.... sounds like a win win to me
@@pamvarnsverry2444 "up their game" Has nothing to do with it. It's about control. A clothing manufacturer should have the freedom to do what ever they want. If they already have a membrane that's as good as Gore or better, but want to use Gore as an experiment in one of their models they can't do that. Would you like that some authority has the right to dictate to you how to remodel the interior of your house, what car you can buy, what food you can eat.
@@pamvarnsverry2444 " a better performing material comes along with the decades of branding back up" Should have known you were just a troll.
I find it pretty lame from Gore,giving a lifetime warranty and then sending that customer home with a 650 check?If you brag about lifetime warranty,do it than even when the jacket is 10 years old.Fix the jacket and if you can't make it waterproof again, give the man a new jacket instead of giving an amount half the price of the jacket .There are a lot of people who spend that extra amount to be"covered"for life only to find out that it its actually lifetime at 50%
What preposterous nonsense on so many levels. First, no other membrane manufacturer offers any guarantee of any kind. In terms of the £640, I would make a couple of points. Gore-Tex only provides the outer fabric. They don’t make jackets, so to get a cheque for £640 back from a company that only made one component seems amazing to me. There is also the fact that, when he bought it, the Armaxion probably only cost about £800, so seven years later, £640 is a result. And, of course, the customer had seven years usage out of that jacket, so you would never expect to get a full refund. Let me make this as simple for you as I can. You buy a £50k car. You pay fully comp. insurance every year. Three years down the road you have an accident and the car gets written off, yet the insurance company you’ve been paying premiums to for all those years will only pay out, what, 50% of the purchase price. And that’s down to the depreciation. So, on any basis, a cheque out of the blue from a company you have never even transacted with is pretty outstanding. Only a bona fide internet troll could take issue with that! CP
@@Motolegends And something else, keep that arrogant tone a bit down, if you find I'm a bona fide internet troll just because you don't like people having different opinions, that is your problem, do you not know any other way than this tone??
I can tell you I own a company a lot larger than yours, just to say your not speaking to some idiot who can't count to 3
A drop liner membrane is not warmer. The outer fabric isn't windproof and even if it was the wind while driving would push the outer fabric with the membrane against your body without any gaps between. Stop spreading these ludicrous lies. You can put as many caps, vests and scientist jackets on, but you clearly have no understanding of motorcycling or even common sense.
Of course a drop-liner jacket is warmer. And it’s to do with the air gap between the membrane and the outer chassis. That air gap traps body heat. Even Rukka would acknowledge this. Really, this is not rocket science. But clearly even very simple physics is over the heads of some people. CP.
@@Motolegends Tough crowd!