A very interesting essay as always. It made me thinks of my readings on Stoicism a few years ago and my frustrations with providence and determinism. I still think Stoicism is useful to understand and interact with these 3 fates: in the end, with training, you can always (with major caveats for people with certain mental issues or personalities) choose how you will react to events you are faced with. Outside of your inner life, you can still make choices but the other fates may severely limit them. You won't be able to choose to acquire a new car if imprisoned for example, but you can make peace with your current condition and make decisions based on it. It doesn't mean you should try to interact with what may seem inevitable, like a deeply corrupted government for example. We should just understand how much influence we can get from the choices we make. On superstition, I think there may be some social value to them. Tarot for example has had some sort of new popularity in some queer communities in N. America as a form of socializing and to discuss personal problems. It can be especially hard to impossible to have access to psychotherapy, and have access to a therapist who is open to one's realities when it comes to gender, romantic or sexual minorities, or even radical politics. It is also a way for some people to reconnect with some traditions from what I've noticed. Some friends who are into such things do not really believe in the supernatural side of tarot or other similar superstitious practices, while others do. Do the benefits from these practices weigh more than the inconveniences you alluded to when talking about these ladies from your hometown? I'm not sure I can say in our current world, even though I tend to have a similar view to yours, I think. It's always better to face the world as it is I think, but I come from a situation of relative privilege, of luck as you presented.
Thank you for taking the time to share this! I do not know much about Stoicism though what you describe here is consistent with the sense of being in control. It is not absolute though it still exists. For me, the interesting part is how even if we only have choice (so not the other two fates), we still do not have absolute freedom in any given situation because of how our prior choices frame/condition us in the moment. You point out a Stoic insight which is indeed valuable here: how you can still control your mental state even when you otherwise do not control the phenomena affecting you. This is part of staying equanimous. It, too, is not of an absolute sort, though it is not trivial either. Since you mention corrupt governments, sometimes we believe in the narrative that "there is no alternative" to whatever the status quo is. This makes us conform with it and not fight for changes. This can be rationalised as "pragmatism" even though it is conformism. In such a scenario, we are not dealing with an inevitable outcome (i.e. the corrupt regime), but one that may indeed be hard to undo. About superstition, it may not be obvious in the video but I was not negative about those practices per se. I am interested in the salient point, as I said, of "reading" something that has already been "written", and I remarked that I find this narrative disempowering. For me, superstition is a form of confirmation bias at times combined with a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we keep "reading" the coffee cup, for example, we can choose the outcome we like the most. By believing in that, we may make it happen by virtue of our inaction, such as a "destiny" that has us do nothing noteworthy in life: so if we internalise that idea and do not try to do anything, it will indeed become our reality. The social dimension of those practices is different though. I have nothing against them. Indeed, there may be more benefits than downsides, such as those ladies developing strong bonds between them which then allow them to express solidarity towards each other. In my experience, this solidarity was in the form of the communal upbringing of children: the neighbours were helping raise me and the other kids (so it was not just my parents/grandparents). About Tarot, I do not know that much though my impression is that it is a different practice than the coffee cup case. It is more akin to psychoanalysis where the person is asked to describe what kind of feelings or ideas they have about a given card. If this is it, then I am interested to try it myself (with the right people, of course, because the social dimension matters as well). Reconnecting with traditions is another important facet of it. I am, in principle, in favour of it because I think that a monoculture is not good for us (just as it is not good for farming). We broaden our horizons when we are exposed to a plurality of views and customs and, hopefully, we become more rounded and thoughtful in the process.
@@protesilaos I appreciate your reply to my comment, thanks! Your point about being conditioned by our past is interesting indeed from the point of view of choice, and from it we can understand responsibility and apply it in other entities, like communities, nations, states, etc. I understand that your thesis is more about the individual level, but the possibility of choice remains important if, as you described later in your reply, we want to overcome conformism. On coffee and Tarot: I've seen my share of people rejecting these practices - I was doing so myself for quite a time before I decided to challenge how open-minded and curious I really was. I'm sorry if my focus was more on the appreciation or rejection of such practices instead of your point on fates. I'm glad you had the chance to grow in such a community. Traditions tend to be hard to find in suburbia where I was raised and I do want to see a world where such communities would be more prevalent. Going back to fates, I look forward being able to share these ideas with people around me who tend to loose faith in their own freedom. I appreciate ancient philosophies as philosophies of "life", how to get closer to something like happiness, but I did find stoic ideas less captivating for most people I discussed with.
You are welcome! Yes, the concept of choice extends to the collective level. Same idea. Growing up in the countryside was a nice experience for me. I got to play a lot outdoors and, a bit later in life, to develop "street smartness" (learning a lot of things about people through everyday affairs). It also gave me an appreciation of the communal aspect of our lives. This is something I largely miss and want to find again (or make it happen). On Stoicism and general "practical philosophies", the way I go about it is to just discuss whatever real-world scenario. I will not go into something abstract, but only work with the specifics. If the person is willing to listen, then I may delve deeper. The idea is to not discourage people by introducing them to a lot of new ideas all at once.
Vedic version of the theme at hand The interplay between choice, chance, and inevitability in the context of fate, are facets of the same reality. Our choices influence our destiny while recognizing the inevitable aspects of life we cannot control. Karma manifests as an interconnected web of inevitability, chance, and choice. It establishes a cause-and-effect system shaping destiny. Although past actions influence life experiences, individuals can exercise free will in their choices, affecting their future. Accepted karma promotes responsibility and invites individuals to live consciously. Karma builds destiny through a cycle of action and reaction where choices significantly impact future outcomes. While some elements of life may seem predetermined, individuals possess the free will to shape their destiny through conscious decisions. Acceptance of karma underlines personal responsibility and encourages growth along the spiritual journey.
A very interesting essay as always. It made me thinks of my readings on Stoicism a few years ago and my frustrations with providence and determinism. I still think Stoicism is useful to understand and interact with these 3 fates: in the end, with training, you can always (with major caveats for people with certain mental issues or personalities) choose how you will react to events you are faced with. Outside of your inner life, you can still make choices but the other fates may severely limit them. You won't be able to choose to acquire a new car if imprisoned for example, but you can make peace with your current condition and make decisions based on it. It doesn't mean you should try to interact with what may seem inevitable, like a deeply corrupted government for example. We should just understand how much influence we can get from the choices we make.
On superstition, I think there may be some social value to them. Tarot for example has had some sort of new popularity in some queer communities in N. America as a form of socializing and to discuss personal problems. It can be especially hard to impossible to have access to psychotherapy, and have access to a therapist who is open to one's realities when it comes to gender, romantic or sexual minorities, or even radical politics. It is also a way for some people to reconnect with some traditions from what I've noticed. Some friends who are into such things do not really believe in the supernatural side of tarot or other similar superstitious practices, while others do. Do the benefits from these practices weigh more than the inconveniences you alluded to when talking about these ladies from your hometown? I'm not sure I can say in our current world, even though I tend to have a similar view to yours, I think. It's always better to face the world as it is I think, but I come from a situation of relative privilege, of luck as you presented.
Thank you for taking the time to share this!
I do not know much about Stoicism though what you describe here is consistent with the sense of being in control. It is not absolute though it still exists. For me, the interesting part is how even if we only have choice (so not the other two fates), we still do not have absolute freedom in any given situation because of how our prior choices frame/condition us in the moment.
You point out a Stoic insight which is indeed valuable here: how you can still control your mental state even when you otherwise do not control the phenomena affecting you. This is part of staying equanimous. It, too, is not of an absolute sort, though it is not trivial either.
Since you mention corrupt governments, sometimes we believe in the narrative that "there is no alternative" to whatever the status quo is. This makes us conform with it and not fight for changes. This can be rationalised as "pragmatism" even though it is conformism. In such a scenario, we are not dealing with an inevitable outcome (i.e. the corrupt regime), but one that may indeed be hard to undo.
About superstition, it may not be obvious in the video but I was not negative about those practices per se. I am interested in the salient point, as I said, of "reading" something that has already been "written", and I remarked that I find this narrative disempowering. For me, superstition is a form of confirmation bias at times combined with a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we keep "reading" the coffee cup, for example, we can choose the outcome we like the most. By believing in that, we may make it happen by virtue of our inaction, such as a "destiny" that has us do nothing noteworthy in life: so if we internalise that idea and do not try to do anything, it will indeed become our reality.
The social dimension of those practices is different though. I have nothing against them. Indeed, there may be more benefits than downsides, such as those ladies developing strong bonds between them which then allow them to express solidarity towards each other. In my experience, this solidarity was in the form of the communal upbringing of children: the neighbours were helping raise me and the other kids (so it was not just my parents/grandparents).
About Tarot, I do not know that much though my impression is that it is a different practice than the coffee cup case. It is more akin to psychoanalysis where the person is asked to describe what kind of feelings or ideas they have about a given card. If this is it, then I am interested to try it myself (with the right people, of course, because the social dimension matters as well).
Reconnecting with traditions is another important facet of it. I am, in principle, in favour of it because I think that a monoculture is not good for us (just as it is not good for farming). We broaden our horizons when we are exposed to a plurality of views and customs and, hopefully, we become more rounded and thoughtful in the process.
@@protesilaos I appreciate your reply to my comment, thanks!
Your point about being conditioned by our past is interesting indeed from the point of view of choice, and from it we can understand responsibility and apply it in other entities, like communities, nations, states, etc. I understand that your thesis is more about the individual level, but the possibility of choice remains important if, as you described later in your reply, we want to overcome conformism.
On coffee and Tarot: I've seen my share of people rejecting these practices - I was doing so myself for quite a time before I decided to challenge how open-minded and curious I really was. I'm sorry if my focus was more on the appreciation or rejection of such practices instead of your point on fates. I'm glad you had the chance to grow in such a community. Traditions tend to be hard to find in suburbia where I was raised and I do want to see a world where such communities would be more prevalent.
Going back to fates, I look forward being able to share these ideas with people around me who tend to loose faith in their own freedom. I appreciate ancient philosophies as philosophies of "life", how to get closer to something like happiness, but I did find stoic ideas less captivating for most people I discussed with.
You are welcome!
Yes, the concept of choice extends to the collective level. Same idea.
Growing up in the countryside was a nice experience for me. I got to play a lot outdoors and, a bit later in life, to develop "street smartness" (learning a lot of things about people through everyday affairs). It also gave me an appreciation of the communal aspect of our lives. This is something I largely miss and want to find again (or make it happen).
On Stoicism and general "practical philosophies", the way I go about it is to just discuss whatever real-world scenario. I will not go into something abstract, but only work with the specifics. If the person is willing to listen, then I may delve deeper. The idea is to not discourage people by introducing them to a lot of new ideas all at once.
Vedic version of the theme at hand
The interplay between choice, chance, and inevitability in the context of fate, are facets of the same reality. Our choices influence our destiny while recognizing the inevitable aspects of life we cannot control.
Karma manifests as an interconnected web of inevitability, chance, and choice. It establishes a cause-and-effect system shaping destiny. Although past actions influence life experiences, individuals can exercise free will in their choices, affecting their future. Accepted karma promotes responsibility and invites individuals to live consciously.
Karma builds destiny through a cycle of action and reaction where choices significantly impact future outcomes. While some elements of life may seem predetermined, individuals possess the free will to shape their destiny through conscious decisions. Acceptance of karma underlines personal responsibility and encourages growth along the spiritual journey.
This is good to know. Thank you for sharing! I am interested to learn more.