Why Does Schoenberg Sound Like That?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2016
- There are many terms used to describe Schoenberg's compositions: atonal, 12 tone, serialism, expressionism, and even dodecaphonic. But what do those mean? And why does Schoenberg sound like that? Find out in this short video!
Narration: Jeffrey Blair - เพลง
“Why does Schoenberg sound like this?”
**PIANO VIOLENTLY FALLING DOWN STAIRS**
🤣 lmao
hahaha "some notes are more equal than other notes"
kpunkt klaviermusik Hmm... Fb=E, G#=Ab, etc.?
@Ben I can't tell if this is ironic or serious and this scares me
orwell meets schoenberg.
@@mateusnaama4545 HA IKR
Great reference to Orwell's Animal Farm
Actually Mozart incorporated so much chromaticism in his late works he could almost be considered an early Romantic period composer. th-cam.com/video/g0ZE38BQmvQ/w-d-xo.html Take for example, the "Chopinesque" Rondo in A minor K511 or Concerto No.24 in C minor, not only did the *opening theme, with its use of all 12 tones in the chromatic scale,* inspire Giselher Klebe (1925~2009) in writing of his tone row in Symphony for Strings (1953). In the opening of the concerto, for example, the basses (also groups of 6 8th notes) go from C - B - Bb - A - Ab - G - F under just 10 measures (first violins also do between over measures 64 ~ 70 in high registers) and continues its restless chromatic bassline. Also, check how Mozart makes melody out of chromatic fourths in the woodwinds before the soloist enters. (measure 81). *String Quartet in C K465 "dissonance", even has an introduction that has no tonal center or key.*
It sounds like a "fly moving backwards on a ceiling" as Gould described it
I still remember when i was amused by a seventh vhord
I love seventh vhords. Minor-majors are my favorite! Nothing beats a minor-major seventh vhord.
Soyoko U. Instead of using a V vhord, I'll sometimes use a V7b9 vhord
so amused that you can't even spell chord
"So why don't we like the way this sounds?" Who said we don't?
Schoenberg spoke to me the first time I ever heard anything he wrote. Not sure why, but he does. I don't see it as confusing at all.
Loved this video, amazing work! I love Schoenberg.
Love this dude. Much like Bartok.
No. Bartok composes tonal music
IF EDVARD MUNCH COULD COMPOSE MUSIC
Webern, Berg, Hindemith, etc.
Frank Zappa steered me toward Schoenberg, Bartok and Stravinski via interviews. Never considered music like that before that, I guess there is something to be gained from being an avid reader. I love the possibilities of combining this strange music with heavy rock mid range chunk and circus music. Thank you for your response. Stan
All 20th century composers sucks
very objective and interesting, thanx for this!
still love his music!!
This kind of experimental attitude informs modernist poetry as well
Yes! All part of the early 20th century explosion of experimentalism across all the arts (for the most part in Europe; some of it ostensibly informed by the then very new field of psychoanalysis, and the push by artists against conformity). Even Schoenberg's _paintings_ fit the aesthetics championed by the Dadaists, who accepted him as one of their own. 😊
still love his work!!
Bon video. Gràcies.
thanks for doing this
Schoenberginess (noun)
tendency to highlight intervals that are most like halfsteps
Thank you for this word!
David Keller that's gay. Was he trying to make it sound horrible? Cuz if so, he has succeeded.
Actually, that's not true at all. But if it makes you fell better to believe it, then go ahead and believe it.
@@JohnSmith-iu3jg Beauty is in the ear of the listener.
Was that a reference to Shostakovich at 3:09?
Nice catch!
It’s from his quartet in c minor
Hi, can you tell which schoenberg pieces were used in this video? Thanks
What's the music in the background between 1:00 and 1:10 ?
Ajay Manoharan Mozart’s Piano Sonata in F K 332
What's the piece in the background at 2:48?
What's the name of the piece at the beginning?
Well great explanation! Schönberg FTW! ^ ^
*****
Thanks a lot!
Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte, Op. 41
Ode to Napoleon, to Byron's poem mocking Napoleon after his fall. It's one of the greatest musical responses to Hitler I know of, and I find it a very moving piece as well.
What peice plays at 1:59? "This brings us to Schoenberg"?
String Quartet No. 2, Op. 10 by Schoenberg
@@carloscalatayud6003 thank you very much!!
What is the background music at 1:46?
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 13 in E flat - II. Allegro
What is the name of the first composition (0:02)?
Orpheus ode to napoleon bonaparte opus 41
@@CameronGuarino
Thank you. I was very curious about it.
What on earth is that chart, where’s the basis for it, where do you start on it, is there a pattern, etc?
What's the name of the piece playing at 0:44?
First movement of Mahler 3rd Symphony
what's the name of the piece playing at 1:55?
that's Beethoven's Sonata no. 13, 2nd mov. in case you never got to find the piece hahaha
What is the name of the music at 1:43, can anyone tell me?
Beethoven sonata no 13 op 14 no 1 2nd mvmnt
The tones are very common for modern metal genres and if you're a fan of Jason Richardson
The difference is that while metal does a lot of atonal and chromatic elements, more often than not there will still be a return to a tonal foundatio/tonal resolution or there's at least a mix of the two styles.
@@ihsahnakerfeldt9280, which there is in Schoenberg's music as well. Schoenberg abhorred the term "atonal music", because he believed that all tones attempted to assert themselves as tonics. Most of the. people on this thread are stunningly ignorant about this topic.
JOHANNES BRAHMS: " I always find Beethoven's C Minor concerto {the Third Piano Concerto} much smaller and weaker than Mozart's. . . . I realize that Beethoven's new personality and his new vision, which people recognized in his works, made him the greater composer in their minds. But after fifty years, our views need more perspective. One must be able to distinguish between the charm that comes from newness and the value that is intrinsic to a work. I admit that Beethoven's concerto is more modern, but not more significant!
I also realize that Beethoven's First Symphony made a strong impression on people. That's the nature of a new vision. But the last three Mozart symphonies are far more significant. . . . Yes, the Rasumovsky quartets, the later symphonies-these inhabit a significant new world, one already hinted at in his Second Symphony. But *what is much weaker in Beethoven compared to Mozart, and especially compared to Sebastian Bach, is the use of dissonance. Dissonance, true dissonance as Mozart used it, is not to be found in Beethoven.* Look at Idomeneo. Not only is it a marvel, but as Mozart was still quite young and brash when he wrote it, it was a completely new thing. What marvelous dissonance! What harmony! You couldn't commission great music from Beethoven since he created only lesser works on commission-his more conventional pieces, his variations and the like. When Haydn or Mozart wrote on commission, it was the same as their other works. "
"Dissonance is not to be found in Beethoven"
*laughs in Grosse Fuge*
Brahms pretending to be an idiot in that quote. So many incorrect, bizarre statements.
I like it.
whats te name of the background song in 1:42?
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 13 in E flat - II. Allegro
I love u
Oh yeah right
1:05 background music name please someone?
It's Mozart's piano sonata #12 In F, K 332
The sheer ignorance from people who posted the video and some comments are simply astounding. They generalize Mozart's Classical style based on his first symphony (I mean his first symphony! composed at the age of 8! WTF)
As counter-examples, why don't you listen to the "atonal sounding passage" of the development section of Mozart's 40th symphony 4th movement th-cam.com/video/g0ZE38BQmvQ/w-d-xo.htmlm, or Gigue in G major K574, or String Quintet in C K515 th-cam.com/video/VI7WBFPqTWg/w-d-xo.htmlm12s or String Quartet in C K465 "dissonance" th-cam.com/video/zuMs8kD5Des/w-d-xo.html or the Adagio from Adagio and Fugue in C minor K546? th-cam.com/video/xQz55_Uvbgs/w-d-xo.html Or Fantasia in C minor for Piano K475, F minor for Organ K608, Rondo in A minor K511.. Or even Concerto for Piano C minor K491,
Yes, music generally did become more chromatic after the Classical period. But the fact is, Mozart was the biggest pioneer of chromaticism in the classical period.
The person who made the video sounds as if Mozart shunned chromaticism and the composers after Mozart were rebelled against him. This is stupid nonsense. Schoenberg even said himself "I learned very much from Mozart and I'm proud of it."
HEARD IT ALL BEFORE
Atonal music can be beautiful.
No shit, Sherlock.
The more you listen to Moses and Aron, the more passionately romantic it sounds.
🧢🧢🧢🧢
0:02 goes hard
Sound like what? Schoenberg was a genius who used a variety of compositional techniques throughout his life. Take his four string quartets, for example. They are very different one from another. Or compare the Gurre-Lieder with Moses und Aron. Or the Cello Concerto with the Violin Concerto. This is one of the best things about Schoenberg, although I believe that his serial works were the most important since they inspired, and continue to inspire, many other composers. Stravinsky, for instance.
Personally, I don't have a problem with atonality, but I do find Schoenberg to be bland due to his incredible complexity. Perhaps I haven't tried enough, but I'd have Webern's subtlety over Schoenberg's complexity any day.
CAPTAIN BEEFHEART AND HIS MAGIC BAND AND FRANK ZAPPA ON ACID EQUAL SHOENBURG ON PAPER
READING SHOENBERG " THE RED GAZE"
What is the music at 1:43?
Thats les adieux sonata for who liked it
An excellent explanation of why I'm a Mozart fan. I knew my ears didn't lie.
Martyj
Mozart makes my brain die of boredom, I'd choose Bartok every day.
Mozart too predictable, too boring, too clean, too perfect to be interesting. Beethoven>Mozart
it's a wrong question... what we should be asking is, "where does music go from Shönberg?" and more important (as that question has already been answered, ad libitum) is the question "where does music go once the question of 'where does music go after Shönberg' is answered?"
Why are you playing music behind your explanation: very disturbing!!
It doesn't matter what music people make; in 100 years 70% of the population won't give a shit and the other 30% will revere it for some kind of academic quality
Most of population already don't give a shit to most things happening in music today
More like 98%.
So that means that 0% will love the music because it thrills and moves them?
I always preferred pantonal…
that was the first lesson for kindergarten kids and Average American Adult.
OH, YOU HATE EVERY AMERICAN ADULT BECAUSE THEY ARE AMERICAN? YOUR LOGIC IS UNDENIABLE?
"a major scale has 8 notes" No, it has 7 notes, you don't count the octave as a new note.
You do actually.
kha sab A tonal scale has 7 unique notes.
Joshua Connor yeah u do. The octave above may be called the same letter/note (e.g. C1 and C2), but it's twice the frequency of the prime note
arjenbij ur actually downs
In music theory you don't count it, because it would be redundant. But when practising scales you often play the octave. It illustrates the principle of tension (leaving the root note) and relief (reaching the octave) that scale oriented music seems to have.
I wish fewer instructors would begin by telling their listeners that Schoenberg wrote ugly, confusing music they won't like. Let them decide.
The video got it wrong; certain intervals are not inherently dissonant. The ‘minor second’ or ' tri-tone’ can sound very pretty when it follows certain interval sequences; even to ears only adjusted to diatonic music. The tonal row just happens to promote a very different set of interval sequences than what most people are used to.
of course certain intervals have always been considered dissonant. You make it sound like the minor 2nd and a tritone are the same thing. You know they aren't right?
paul Rez Just because tritones and semitones can sound pretty in context, it doesn't mean they aren't dissonant. Dissonant and consonant are static qualities.
paul Rez the tritone is like 45:32 or some crazy interval like that. It *_IS_* inherently dissonant, and no one can acquire a taste for it. It must be resolved in harmony to sound good.
So why even waste my time?
😐🔫
LIKE bARTOK WHAT,S THE DIFFERENCE
The major scale contains seven tones. Obviously you know that, and you're just counting the tonic at the octave, but it's misleading to describe it that way. The twelve-tone chromatic scale would have thirteen notes by your same reckoning.
I just can't help recommending this ditty country song throwing little jabs at atonal Music:
m.th-cam.com/video/gzodB0Sp6ZI/w-d-xo.html
It's true that music often became more chromatic after Mozart, but you fail to mention that music written before Mozart was born, such as much of that written by Bach,, is also often far more chromatic than Mozart.
Have you listened to Mozart's Piano Concerto No.24 in C minor. Not only did the "commanding" *opening theme, with its use of all 12 tones in the chromatic scale,* inspire Giselher Klebe (1925~2009) in writing of his tone row in Symphony for Strings (1953). In the opening of the concerto, for example, the basses (also groups of 6 8th notes) go from C - B - Bb - A - Ab - G - F under just 10 measures (first violins also do between over measures 64 ~ 70 in high registers) and continues its restless chromatic bassline. Also, check how Mozart makes melody out of chromatic fourths in the woodwinds before the soloist enters. (measure 81). *String Quartet in C K465 "dissonance", even has an introduction that has no tonal center or key.*
"Giuseppe Sarti later published an attack against the "Dissonance" quartet, describing sections as "barbarous", "execrable", and "miserable" in its use of whole-tone clusters and chromatic extremes. Around this same time, Fétis printed a revision of the opening of the "Dissonance" quartet, implying that Mozart had made errors. When the publishers, Artaria, sent the quartets to Italy for publication, they were returned with the report "the engraving is full of mistakes"." - Wikipedia page on Mozart's 6 String Quartets Nos.14~19 dedicated to Haydn
I'm not sure if Bach was more chromatic in general, but in his fugues he definitely was. He often relied on chromatic ascending or descending lines which he always harmonised (in comparison to non-functional chromatic passages in Classicism). Perhaps it is the temporal density of Bach's music that makes it sound chromatic: a lot of stuff happens in the same amount of time that Mozart or Beethoven would merely cycle through I and V.
The music of Mozart is the maximum expresion of the Carl Philip Emmanuel Bach style of music.
@@karlpoppins listen to the primary theme of the slow movement of Symphony No.38 in D major "Prague" K504. th-cam.com/video/jmbqGhfhaAk/w-d-xo.html the recapitulation from Fantasia in F minor for Organ K608 th-cam.com/video/O6l_0BQnBsU/w-d-xo.html the ending of String Quartet No.15 in D minor K421 th-cam.com/video/yIli9mrMFSo/w-d-xo.html isn't it amazing how Mozart still maintains so much sing-able quality while being extremely chromatic at the same time? th-cam.com/video/G7N6L9v007w/w-d-xo.html Rondo in A minor K511
ears don't get " happy "...the MIND does......
lol theMahler example was really badly chosen
Allan Holdsworth.
:))
Everyone here who thinks they know shit but doesn't actually know shit, please learn what harmonics are. And learn what some basic harmonic pitch intervals are and what the significance of their frequencies are. (I'll give you a hint: it has to do with proportions)
Nope. Pitch intervals are based on irrational numbers 9 times out of 10 because of equal temperament.
MostlyMemes - Indeed. Many musicians called equal temperament an abomination back in the day, since none of the intervals follow the harmonic series. They're all irrational. Yet, today, we take equal temperament for granted, and *still* act as if all music is perfectly tuned to the harmonic series. It's a fallacy.
I am sure you have something reasonable to say, but could you please be a little less...indelicate?
TOLLERATE MUCH, SNOWFLAKE?
Who calls it expressionism? Far too constrained to be expressionist anything. His paintings are another matter
Y DONT U JUST TALK ABOUT SCHOENBERG....FORGET THE LONG INTRO
The term "atonal" is inaccurate- it implies a lack of tones rather than a lack of a tonal centre.
Atonal means lack of tonal centre
Schoenberg himself was opposed to the term if I remember correctly.
Jrdn Nlsn That's true
It doesn't matter how Schoenberg felt about the term, the definition is lacking a tonal centre.
Schoenberg preferred the term "pantonal."
You can rebel against the laws that naturally govern music if you want to, but you don't come out with music, but anti-music, musical anarchy. Of course those laws can be stretched some--that's creativity, but not abandoned if you want music to result.
So what are the laws of music? How many historical treatises have you read?
Hint: many of the most characteristic harmonic progressions in Romantic-era music would have been considered improper by Renaissance theorists. The seventh wasn't considered a chord tone until long after it had become common practice; the 9th wasn't validated until late in the 19th century. While 19th-century composers were busy using these resources, along with flat major mediants, Neapolitans, major Mediants, applied dominant 9ths and tons of other resources, there were plenty of theorists claiming that they were breaking the eternal laws of music.
@@franklincox9508 Who cares what the theorists said? A theorist is always biased againts new music because he is used to teaching the principles of old music and making a living from that.
The thing is that there are innate aspects of the human mind that govern our perception and appreciation of music. Palestrina, Bach, Debussy - their music is very different, and yet most people find their music beautiful. It is true that an average person might find Mozart's or Wagner's music boring or not 100% to their taste, but they are very unlikely to call this music ugly. But with atonal music it is different - people call it ugly all the time, often describing it as random noise. The reason is clear - there is very little in atonal music that an average person's mind can make sense of or memorize because of its incomprehensible harmonic structure and often complicated, irregular rhythms, to say nothing of the absense in this music of memorable motives or tunes. This music is kinda doomed to be unpopular because of the innate limitations of the human mind. So music naturally gravitates towards very broad and general musical universals. This idea is vindicated by the fact that many musical cultures from different parts of the globe have developed things like pentatonic scales and regular rhythmic patterns, and they did so while being geographically separated from one another. There is no plausible enviromental explanation for this, because back then there was no mass communication or things like that, so things like pentatonic scales (or other harmonious sounging scales) and regular rhythmic patterns must stem from innate aspects of the mind that happened to evolve.
@@garrysmodsketches The comment on the top of this thread started off with the "natural laws of music". That's what I was responding to. The "natural laws of music" notion comes from music theory. Please don't try to change the topic of the thread you are commenting on.
Your argument is the "Argumentum ad populem": lots of people say "X", so "X" must be true. This is a notorious logical fallacy.
To provide an honest argument, you start off with, "Lots of people I know don't like atonal music". That's perfectly fine evidence, but it doesn't lead to much, because lots of people like Schoenberg's music an love atonal music.
Until the revival of Palestrina in the 19th century most people were not at all interested in Renaissance music; it was boring and old-fashioned. The music of Bach was not like much during his lifetime, and the church at Leipzig couldn't wait to replace Bach, even hiring a replacement when he was sick but still alive.
Debussy's music was tremendously controversial in its time, with countless leading musicians declaring that it violated the basic laws of music.
Countless people have called Wagner's music ugly, hideous, and all sorts of other things. Your claim is factually wrong.
And your claim about the universality of the pentatonic scale providing evidence of human limitations undermines your claims for all the classical composers you cited, because the vocabulary for all of them is far more complicated than pentatonic scales.
This argument from biology is not only ignorant about biology, it is anti-scientific. Humans have developed highly sophisticated capacities in almost every field that far surpass what is biologically given in the human species.
@@franklincox9508 My mentioning pentatonic scales around the world had one purpose: to demonstrate that musical universals can and do exist. Seriously, how can you explain that countless musical cultures just so happened to invent the same pentatonic scales while being separated geographically from one another? Surely there must be something in the human mind that makes these musical universals possible.
And no, I didn’t say “X is unpopular therefore X is objectively bad”, so don’t assume that was my point. My point was that people who write atonal music should be prepared that their music is going to be shat on constantly because it is impossible for most people to understand and enjoy. And this situation probably cannot be changed.
The rest of your comment is just mentioning things music critics and theorists said about Wagner and Debussy. Who cares what they said? Pointless.
@@garrysmodsketches, you apparently do not understand the first thing about coherent logic. You claim that because pentatonic scales are common in world music that proves that there are universals. But first you need to prove that pentatonic scales are universal. Which they aren't.
In order to prove that universals exist, you need to provide evidence of universals. You haven't done that. Maintaining that x is universal in music requires that every bit of music possess or exhibit x. That is not remotely true of pentatonic scales.
Hurley's Logic is an excellent beginning logic book. Why don't. you study it for a year or so and then get back to us. .
It might also be useful to get a graduate degree in music.
But do start off with the study of logic. It's quite needed in your case.
"picks Mozart's first symphony (piece he wrote at 8) as an example to describe general change in music history over hundreds of years in time" lol.. so amateur.. no wonder why this channel has so little number of subscribers
It other words, atonal music does not only sound like shit, it is the true embodiment of bullshit.
An attack against harmony, and a crime against humanity.
What makes you think that you have the right to talk over music? Playing scales over other sound is IGNORANT at least and INTENTIONALLY RUDE to most pf us.
This video is a disservice to serious music. Casey Kasem had more respect, and that was simple, basic sound. Shame on you.
Atonality killed classical music. There's a reason pop music took over in the 20th Century, and that reason is this incoherent, unnecessarily hyper-intellectual mess that pushed away "obsolete-minded" composers.
Yes my friend
Yes. And classical music killed Baroque music too as Baroque music became an incoherent mess. And the cycle goes on.
@@thatonekevin3919 What?
Ah, yes Classical music was developed as a direct rebellion against the incomprehensible complexity of Baroque music. Too complex CPE Bach said.
It's really quite fascinating. We can see the same events unfolding today too.
+thebignerd Well I don't know about you but I truly feel something when I listen to Baroque music. Not with atonality. And most people don't.
It's communism set to music. Same idiocy. Same disastrous results.
Edgar van Oostrum lol well put.
Communism? That has to be a joke. And Schoenberg is a genius.
Not a joke. Twelve tone music seeks to "liberate" the tones from the "dominance" of the tonic by using all 12 chromatic tones equally. This idea clearly stems from the socialist philosophies of the early 20th century, but makes little sense if applied to music. As if the notes themselves are socially bothered by Hegelian dialectics.
This is a silly comment, both close minded and historically detached. As a matter of fact Schoenberg wouldn't even describe his music in such a way, he detested the idea that his music called for the "destruction of tonal hierarchy " and was not a communist regardless of his left leanings. He was a self described monarchist as evident in his letters, and regardless of your political scapegoating was still a genius composer. People don't write dissertations on nonsense, and they also don't listen to silly opinions on the internet with no facts. This is what happens when you get someone with opinions to look for things he doesn't understand.
Funny: I've studied piano and composition at the Conservatory. I consider myself neither close minded, or historically detached, or a dilettant on the matter. And I wasn't talking about Schoenberg --- I was talking about 12-tone music.
Atonal music is Just a euphemism for garbage
How much musical training do you have. Have you had extensive amounts of formal musical training? I infer not. That is just preposterous. You call it garbage because your idea of music if very linear and I might say "garbage" myself.
vZZenn lets just agree that this is subjective lol
Whether you like the music, is subjective, but all of the intricacies and development and such that make it very dense and filled with ideas are all factual. Whether you believe that equates to better music is up to you, although any trained musician would realize the capacity this music takes and respect it for what it is, even if they personally don't listen to it.
ANDRE C IS WALKING SEWAGE IN A SKIN SUIT!
Good thing that Schoenberg hated the term "atonal", isn't it?
What's the name of the piece at the beginning?
Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte, Op. 41