The BIG Bore Cartridges
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: @red11media
Welcome to the RSO Podcast! In this episode, I read an article I wrote about an amazing pronghorn hunt I went on in Colorado.
Links:
Website: ronspomeroutdo...
Facebook: / ronspomeroutdoors
Instagram: / ronspomer
Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: @red11media
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
For a good viewing of those big doubles Kentucky Ballistics has a series of videos on them. Its quite impressive. He's a big fella, and then you watch him take the recoil in slow motion, and yikes I'm not so sure I'd be too eager to fire one.
There's a much smaller guy on TH-cam who shoots homebrewed "12 Guage from hell" cartridges from a customized reamed and rifled single shot overbuilt 12g...shooting custom made thick walled high pressure 12G with an extra long case, throwing a solid copper slug.
It's on par with the 60 nitro express in weight and velocity... but this dude isn't a big guy at all. His journey is pretty awesome.
Those doubles are my favorites…
@@ravissary79 I'm checking this out immediately.
Did you see the one where his dad shot the .700 NE because Scott was still recovering from his injuries? Scott Sr. makes Scott Jr. look small. Funny thing was that Scott Sr. claimed that the biggest gun he'd ever fired before was a .30-30:
th-cam.com/video/8gIS2n-bY1w/w-d-xo.html
@@ravissary79 Yeah he uses annealed and fire formed 50 BMG cases, I couldn't remember if the rounds were brass or copper but I haven't seen any activity from him in quite a while is he OK.
Another good video. A number of years ago my wife and I were hoping to go to Africa to hunt a cape buff and a few smaller animals. While looking for a . 375 H&H mag I saw a . 460 Weatherby magnum. As my wife tells it I drooled over the .460 so much that the store told her that she had to buy it for me, so she looked at me and said "Merry Christmas", (she got another harp for Christmas that year. So she wasn't left out). Everybody told me that the rifle would knock me over when I pulled the trigger so I was a little disappointed when it didn't. I worked up a handload and practiced with the rifle until I could get the 2nd and 3rd shot off really fast. After 60 rounds I finally felt comfortable with my ability to hit what I was aiming at as well as getting off the followup shots. The only time I really felt pain in my shoulder was when I, like an idiot, decided to finish off a box of 20 rounds in one sitting. Now when I take it to the range I bring along some lighter rounds for kids to try the gun as well as some heavy rounds so their dad's can try it too. Dad's are required to pay for their shot as well as part of their kid's shot if dad and kid both shoot the gun, if only the kid shoot's it they get to shoot for free.
I love my 45-70. I shoot 360gr cast bullets with a gas check at 2000fps. I also mix in linotype. I've made some quartering shots on game and had complete passthrough of 36" plus. I've never had an animal take a step. It's strictly a close quarters gun, and usually in heavy cover. But, it works for large hogs, black bears, and and a very mean feral bull that was holed up in thick brush in South Texas.
Grew up reading Elmer Keth and Jack O'Connor, Big bore versus the 270 Win, Few people remember Jack went to Africa and used BIG bores
🤠 Only because he had to! 😂
Hell, Elmer was there. ... I sorely miss that man. ... The needle shooter - not nearly as much.
@@ronlowney4700 And I believe he continued to use .270 Win and 7x57 against plains game.
⏰ Time proved Jack right and Keith wrong! 😁 But, would he have been like Bell and tried to kill everything with his 270 Winchester? 🤔 If Bell could kill elephants with a 7×57, then Jack could certainly have killed everything with a 270 Winchester! 😂 But, that sends those Liberals (hunters suffering from little man's disease) into panic mode! 🤭
🤪 Most people that have to rely on a Big Magnum (Manglums) to kill small to medium sized game are crappy shots - and the rest are Stupid! 😂
Ready to build my 505 gibbs. I currently own a 416 rigby. A 375 H&H soon to be rechambered to RUM
My favorites are still and always will be are the 375 H&H and the 444. Are all I need and want to use.
444 marlin rocks!
Not bad choices at all. It would make it a little daunting if you needed to hunt some squirrels, however.
@@Mark-uq9km 🤣 great one about the squirrels
@@missey316 Thanks. I used to hunt squirrels as a kid but don't need or want to anymore. I do have a .375 H&H in Browning X-Bolt but don't have a .444 Marlin and wish I did. In 1964 when it was first produced it was quite an innovative weapon. But, it was plagued by the unimaginative Remington factory loads. It became more popular when Hornady introduced their Leverevolutions several years ago plus their round nose 265 grain bullet with Superformance ballistics. It is a really good snot shocker for anything in North America.
Thanks Ron
Cheers
Rob
Hi Ron
I really want you to do a video answering the question “Does the 7mm rem mag shoot strait through a elk”?
Depends on the bullet and the angle at which it is applied. I've had some 160-gr. Nosler Accubonds should through on broadside chest shots, others penetrate to the offside hide. Barnes TSX, TTSX and LRX plus Hammer Hunter all copper bullets are likely to pass through. Not sure how far they'd go with a Texas heart shot. I once put a 165-gr. TTSX from a 300 Win Mag. between the hams of a common waterbuck facing straight away at about 100 yards. Bullet made it to the lungs. Body weight about 550 pounds. I imagine a 160-gr. from 7mm RM would do about the same.
Keep in mind, modern 45-70 smokeless loads can clear 3600f-p of energy in Buffalo Bore and Underwood loads.
The underwood ammo can produce over 3.5k ft-lbs if I remember right. That’s mad stuff.
And why would u put any modern smoke less 45 70 in a trap door? Ever?
@@dualsportrider3221 Because you're not really a shooter, you found an old trapdoor at the back of grandpa's closet, and you don't know any better?
Never mind that, I had a boss said he shot modern loads in a trap door for 30+ years. He's pushing luck big time
@@dualsportrider3221 I would have assumed he'd have wrecked the gun after a handful of 'modern rifle' loads, if not the first one. Maybe by "modern loads" he simply meant the light smokeless loads Ron was talking about? You could maybe get away with that.
the 416 Barrett is cool as hell though I will say I have shot the cheytac and the 416 Barrett I will say the Barrett is a laser but it's hard top beat the Cheytac and the way it doesn't destabilize through the transonic barrier
You can't just put a 20x102mm PGU-28 in the thumbnail and not elaborate. That's false advertising.
Hand loading the 458 Win with 450-480 grain bullets will come real close to the 458 Lott with 500 grainers, with a little less recoil and a shorter action to get off your second shot. Less chance for short stroking and jamming.
The 416 isn’t a bad hunting round I have some buddies that used them in Colorado
If 50 BMG is too small, there are 12,7x108 DShK , 14,5 KPVT and 23 mmZPU AA gun .
Of note is that the 450 Bushmaster is the most powerful cartridge available in the AR-15 platform. The 500 AutoMax is the most powerful in the AR-10/LR308 platform.
458 SOCOM is also available in an AR15 platform. No real performance difference between .452 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM
@@smokedbrisket3033 450 Bushmaster has a slight edge on 458 SOCOM. What the SOCOM is loaded for though is heave subsonic rounds, like 600gr. 450 being a straightwall could easily be loaded for such a bullet, you would just seat it much deeper (which on a straightwall is very easy to do without an ill effects) and run an appropriate powder load.
I love it when 45/70 fanatics get a dose of reality. Lmao
Me too!! 😊👍
I got to handle a 700 nitrogen express many years ago Backwood never still feels really really good old fashioned gun shops in Southern California. It was a $100000 rifle and they showed a video of the gun collector firing at, he was an Asian guy about your size Ron S. And that thing recoiled like An artillery piece. The word was the individuals that regulated the barrels were able to go hunting with it and put around through a kit Buffalo's butt and the exit wound was in the shoulder forward near the neck
Fascinating discussion indeed !!
I’ve always wanted to fire a 458 win mag or 460 weatherby
Shoot the 458 - skip the 460
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I was hoping for a video on stuff bigger than 40 bore and here this video pops up.
The .577 Tyrannosaur was supposed to be a stopping rifle for charging elephants. It developed 10,180 ft-lbs at the muzzle and in the neighborhood of 170# felt recoil in a 12# rifle. Not sure who could really fire it fast enough to make a difference.
Well you would need to still be on your feet and overcome the temporary paralysis of your dominant side limb to be effective with your second shot, the old video still makes me chuckle.
In the big gun's i like the 378 weatherby with a 270 GR bullet going 3100 FPS.
In the Ruger #1 or Siamese Mauser the 45-70 can drive a 400 grain bullet to 2200 fps. Don’t try that in your Marlin or Henry. In his book The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns Jack O’Connor wrote that if he could have just one rifle to hunt the world over it would be the 375 H&H, but his favorite for dangerous game was the 416 Rigby.
The more I look at this chart the more I want the 50 BMG
Hey 10mm is .40cal.... I've seen Keith Warren drop a whitetail buck with one shot from a 10 mm Glock that's pretty damn impressive for a semi-automatic pistol cartridge
Yes, the 10mm handgun can do such things. I've used it on aoudad and good sized feral hogs. But even smaller cartridges/bullets can drop deer in their tracks if applied to the right place. I'm sure Mr. Warren applied his 10mm bullet to the right place. That's always the smartest move!
My first "big bore" was 45/70 out of a original Trapdoor Springfield, in my early teens. My first center fire was a M16a1 as a really youngster. Courtesy of the Army N.G. then later many hundreds if not thousands,a old classic 50 BMG with regular Army. I had wanted a TC Encore in 300 WM since I was young... many years passed before I did. In the past 20 plus years of ownership it's been fired maybe 40 times. I got a 30-06 barrel for it, the 300 WM has a muzzle brake added.
I made the not so practical purchase of a magnum resarch bfr in 450 marlin. It pushed me Into reloading due to the availability of 450 marlin. it's completely impractical for my purposes but it's a lot of fun.
But I'm pretty sure it's good for any game animal under 100 yards in the states.
i chuckled when you mentioned 416 rigby. for no reason whatsoever :D
The larger modern reason to use larger diameter "stopping" bores is to reduce cruelty. You can kill a lion with a .223 but it'll likely take days to a week.
Interesting idea, Prjndigo, but I've never seen evidence suggesting that. Hunters anticipating dangerous game that bites and stomps are interested in stopping it. All true hunters strive to kill quickly regardless the quarry. It would be one sick puppy who hunts in order to be cruel. As for that lion, a 223 tight behind the shoulder and into the heart lungs would likely kill it inside of 10 seconds, roughly. Torn and ripped major arteries end life quickly. This does not mean such small bullets are a sensible choice for lions or any other large game, let alone potentially dangerous specimens.
The 4 bore rifle is 200 ft lb of felt recoil in a 20lb rifle I believe
Hi Ron good job :-) I found a packet of 600nitro express, and it said you have to be 6feet tall weight 120kg as may cause nose and ear bleeding and concussion if used more than 5 round in 24hrs so i gave them away
During ww2 the British used boys antitank rifle . This was larger than the 50bmg and yet it didn’t have a muzzle brake ! A sand bag was placed on the shoulder and that was it. It never stopped a tank and was later used to kill rogue elephants .
Special Garrett Cartridges of Texas 45/70 loads are able to drop Cape Buffalo. For instance a 540 grain hard cast Hammer Head gas check bullet at high velocity +P loads.
Hi Ron In one of your videos you mention that BOLT ACTION WAS INVENTED IN USA. Well, I hope I'm correct when I say that bolt action was patended in Norway in 1887. And as far as I have checked I couldn't find any other country that tried to patende it before 1887 or after.
In 1893, the 6.5 × 55 mm cartridge was standardized by the Norwegian-Swedish Rifle Commission, and soon after was introduced as a standard cartridge in the Norwegian and Swedish defenses. This was one of several Norwegian-Swedish defense commissions regarding the army's handguns, among others. The starting point for the commission in 1893 was that they wanted a caliber smaller than 10.15 mm that had been used before. This is to provide a better and flatter trajectory, and for the soldiers to be able to carry more ammunition.
In the period just before the turn of the century, many countries adopted relatively finely calibrated repeater rifles with weapons magazines. The calibers chosen elsewhere in Europe ranged from 7.5 mm to 8 mm. The testing in Norway started with the caliber, where it turned out that 6.5 mm bore diameter gave the best results, then they looked at the sleeve and sleeve length, and then ended up with a 55 mm long sleeve. The projectile that was used to begin with was called the B projectile, and was a 10.1 gram bullet with a round tip. Other countries switched to sharper and lighter bullets to provide flatter bullet trajectories and higher exit velocities, and in 1925 a 9 gram pointed bullet, the so-called D projectile, was approved by the defense. Although similar bullets are used for competitive shooting even today, there have been a wealth of other bullets to provide better precision, higher exit velocity and flatter bullet trajectory.
In 1984, CIP standardized the cartridge independently under the name "6.5 × 55 SE", and revised the standard in 2002 and 2007.
SE is Scandinavian Edition.
In 1990, the Scandinavian shooting organizations standardized the chamber ring as a 6.5 × 55 SKAN », which in relation to the original 1893 standard has stricter tolerances, has higher maximum pressure and slightly longer free flight in the chamber.
In 1993, SAAMI independently standardized the cartridge under the name "6.5 × 55mm Swedish", with the official SAAMI abbreviation "6.5 × 55".
where would you place the 9.3x62 Mauser as a big game caliber?, i personally love this round
A Barrett model 82 semi with 10 round mag.
I see big bullets and I think of this quote
“Nothing to worry about sir gonna be a walk in the park.” (Jurassic Park 3)
It’s important to remember that once game animals reach a certain size, say elk size, energy figures are meaningless as nothing has enough energy to do enough damage on its own. Like say you can with a jackrabbit. Permanent wound channel does make a difference and that depends a lot on bullet shape and construction. Every game animal on the planet has been documented to have been killed with a 30-06 but all things being equal it’s still the size of the hole that matters. It’s also much easier to construct a bullet that expands well and holds together at slower impact velocities. Old 30-30s were so effective not because of any impressive energy numbers but because the bullets behaved really well at the range that was typical at that time. A 300 magnum really isn’t any more effective. The difference is the extra velocity increases the range that they can be used at.
New account new thumbs up great video Ron. I found two 38/40 rounds I never heard of them till I look them up. I don't have anything to shoot them out of. They are in great condition for their age semi-jacketed flat tips.
Was that a young Ron with the Bison?
Great video, thank you.
Ah, those were the days.
You need to get out the TRUE big ones. Get out a .600 Overkill or the .570 NE. How about the 20mm Vulcan?
Ron what about the Famous H & H 375 it is said to be the Best All Round Big Game Rifle its the most used Rifle for Big Game in Africa. it seems to be over looked , Regards Trevor.W.Bacelli, Biloela Qld Australia.
It depends on what you define as "big game".
The 45-70 chambered in modern lever action can be hand loaded much hotter than the factory loads, and if chambered in bolt gun like Mosen Nigant conversion or Ruger #1 it can approach 458 win mag performance.
Been wanting a No.1 for years. Just a little too much money for its practicality for my hunting.
@@goproaz2097 they are a nice rifle, I remember looking at one yers ago at a garage sale a guy had a handful of guns for sale. It was in 375 H&H I really wanted it but I did not have much $ at the time.
I bought a Ruger 1 in 458 win mag and the owner shot 3 rounds down it. When I sold it it had a total of 4 rounds down it. I have been kicked by horses run over by cows and I'm not too sure they were any worse than that #1.
I cannot think of any type of animal on earth that could withstand a 378 Weatherby Magnum with 270 grain Barnes bullets. I have larger caliber rifles but this one is just mean.
Great information on the truth 👍
I love everything you do Ron but I kinda feel like you miss represented the 45-70 Gov. a little. My Marlin shoots the Hornady 325gr leverevolution at a little over 2100 fps and produces well over 3000 ft pounds. You mentioned 30.06 with the word modern but we can also modern the 45.70. I understand you were just making a point and I understand but the 45.70 is much more than a 500gr volley gun. Modern loadings is why it's still around today. Thank for everything you do, I absolutely love your show and writing.
Yes, the 45-70 certainly can be loaded hotter for use in modern, strong rifles like Marlin 1895 and especially Ruger No. 1. But so many factory loadings are underpowered that I think it only fair to start there. It's also historically accurate to note what the fearsome "buffalo cartridge" was doing back in 1874.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors👊
Got a question? The big bore rifles vs shotgun loads. My winchester over under has a much different recoil than my 300 winchester mag.
4:16 barret was made bc 50 is Iillegal in californistan
After my 30+ years of "stopping" animals lol its kinda like getting the wind knocked out of you... the same punch/force depending on where how and who to it's delivered it might give u that wind knocked out of you feeling..
At the risk of sounding like the President of the 30-06 fan club your (great) comparo just illustrates how good and how ahead of its time the 30-06 was. Whilst it is obviously not a African Game Gun it certainly holds its own amongst those really big bangers..
The great thing about the .30'o6, and .375 H&H magnum, is matter where in the world you are, you can generally find ammo
I do not think that the 30-06 was that much ahead of it´s time. 30-06, 6.5x55 and 8x57IS are still good hunting rounds. Their performance was good when they were developed and game animals did not get that much beefier since then. The intended purpose and requirements did not really change that much.
@@maxlutz3674 7x57 too, which is the round that directly influenced the development of .30-06. Incidentally, I find it funny that both the American and British militaries were strongly influenced by 7x57, yet neither ever fully adopted a 7mm round, despite coming very close (.276 Pedersen and .280 British).
Certainly don't discount smaller calibers, as K. Bell proved, a small caliber, in the right place can be as effective (or more) than a big bore, especially if the big bore doesn't hit the right place. Yes you have more leeway with a bigger caliber, but only if you can shoot it well and accurately. Big bores usually have big price tags on ammo, which means less practice before using in anger, the more you use an individual fire arm, the more it becomes second nature to use, the more accurate you will be, and the faster and more accurate you will be when under pressure.
You should always use enough gun for what you are targeting, I certainly wouldn't recommend targeting something like a US Bison with a 22lr, but you also don't want to be using too much gun (something you can't handle properly, i.e. too much recoil, too heavy etc.), most people wouldn't use a 458 WM for rabbits (not that you can't, that might be the way you get the practice for when you are out after something bigger).
Depending on where you go hunting, either you drive around until you find tracks or you walk around in the area where the animal you're hunting normally are. Also depending on where you're from, if you're a forgeiner the experience need to be made less harsh and if you're from here, say south africa, you carry you're own gun 😂
Agreed.
Problem with "stopping rifle" argument is that the issue of the degree of the animal's tenacity/temper and level of adrenaline varies so much from animal to animal, that in some cases even the largest calibres are never enough gun. Case in point: the late PH Ian Gibson, was still charged and gored by a cape buff after it had already absorbed 23 rounds of heavy DG calibre lead.
Also, IMHO, a 45-70 has not enough case capacity,nd is inadequate, to safely hunt African DG.
Brian Pearce took an old Cape Buffalo bull with one shot from his Marlin 1895 .45--70 and heavy for caliber, hard cast LBT shaped bullets. The shot was a broadside. It completely penetrated the bull, and killed the cow behind it, which had been unseen by Pearce and the PH. ... John Linebaugh had results of his penetration testing of .45 caliber rifle cartridges on his website. His results were very surprising to me. With the same projectiles, increases in velocity tended to reduce penetration. His .45-70 loads penetrated further than .458 Win Mag, .458 Lott, and .460 Weatherby. ... With proper loads, the venerable .45-70 is indeed Big Medicine.
@@martinmiller1087 if it's that good - and ammunition being cheaper to load - then why no PHs have ever carried it or recommended it? Standing broadside indicates a buff that was at completely unaware and at rest. Ive taken many buff with my 9.3x62 in such situationns. But a buff at rest is a very different situation from one coming for you at extreme close range. To be convinced of the 45-70 (and have it endorsed for African DG) I'd like to first see it consistently out perform a Lott or 470NE in such cicumstances.
@@tim7052 I'd assume PHs prefer more reliable rifles than lever actions - double rifles, or controlled round feeding Mauser claw extractor bolt actions. ... Edit ... The .45-70 cartridge case is a rimmed case. Historically, rimmed cases have been problematic at feeding from box magazines. ... The Siamese Mauser conversion to .45-70 is apparently a successful conversion. I've never seen, nor handled one, and can't comment knowledgeably.
@@martinmiller1087 Quite. But apart from issues over using a lever action, proponents of using the 45/70 for African DG is a recent idea, due to today's advances in powder and bullet development. That said, despite citing individual cases as you have done, I'm not convinced of the 45/70s consistency and reliability to deal effectively with a cantankerous buff in a tight situation.
For myself I se a 458 Win Mag with 72gr AR2206H, driving 500gr Woodleigh FMJs and RNSNs. This is an extremely accurate and effective load in which I've taken both cape buff and hippo at ranges from 120yds to as close as I'd ever want to be from a riled up, angry, buff!! 👍
@@tim7052 Congratulations Sir. I bet a hippo at spitting distance got your heart pumping! ... Karamojo Bell proved that penetration with a non-expanding bullet to an elephant's brain killed instantly. It was the penetration and not the terminal energy that was decisive. ... John Linebaugh's pubkished experiments with penetration testing of the .45 caliber rifle cartridges revealed to him that increasing velocity actually reduced penetration. It seems to be counterintuitive, but Linebaugh reported his .45-70 loads penetrated more deeply than his .458 Win Mag, .458 Lott and .460 Weatherby. ... The last time I looked on Mr. Linebaugh's website, I couldn't find that discussion and resulting data chart. ... I hope you can access that data. I'd be very interested to read what a man of your experience thinks about that seeming conundrum. ... Take good care. Watch your topknot. Keep your powder dry.
So which one you want in your mittens as that awfully angry African animal is running headlong at you? Wonderful episode just recently found you have been binge watching as many videos as I can and have really learnt a lot thanks and God Bless
The 460 Weatherby has been downloaded to 2600 fps. I buy the older 2750 fps. Roy would be boiling over this if he was still around.
need to do a video on 17 incinerator
I dunno Ron, I have my .45-70 stoked up well over 3000 foot pounds with 350 grain bullets. It pounds the heck out of my shoulder in my 1895.
Yes, many handload well beyond factory levels. Requires the right rifle.
Bid boars start from cal.9.3mm⬆️
Look up 70 or 72 caliber using a 1000 grain brass slug and fireformed .50 BMG brass, with a powder capacity of 200 grains of smokeless, I think the inventor who published his videos on TH-cam ran afoul of the ATF or he blew himself up. Dunno.
Fun video Ron.
You and I both know there is no such thing as a rifle too big, that akin to saying a girl is too pretty.
Actually I shoot and enjoy all the big bores. To me the key to controlling the recoil is; 1. Practice, practice, Practice. 2. Stock design. 3. Rifle hold, good grip and pull it firmly into your shoulder. 4. Learn to dig the pain, well at least to not fear the recoil pain. To me it's simply to the first few time you've been punched in the nose. At first you kind of fear the fist traveling towards your head at unknown velocity. Then you realize, it really didn't hurt that bad. But a shooter needs to shot a lot to become comfortably numb to recoil. If not and someone is sensitive to recoil, no shame in that, just switch to a lighter rifle cartridge.
I must, slightly, disagree with your assessment of a "stopping rifle". Heavy bullet with good frontal area, moving at a decent impact velocity will stop or change the direction of most charges. Granted the hits must be on target. 500 gr at 2300 fps in a non-vital is not nearly as good as 180gr breaking a shoulder. But in my experience to stop an animal, structural damage must result. Broken shoulder or hip will do it. For the spine or brain, anything that will penetrate to those vitals does the trick. A bigger bullet does give a margin of error and allows for the follow up killing shot. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work.
Cheers, Jeff
Yes, Jeff, the bigger, heavier bullet should and likely would give more margin for error and slow the charge more than a lighter bullet in same place, but I still find "stopping rifle" an overly optimistic term, especially when I hear the stories of the multiple hits in the chest not stopping the buff. Taylor of course, pretty well proved the value in a heavy bullet turning or knocking out an elephant with a near-miss brain shot, but his formula does not translate to body shot buff, nor lions, rhino, etc, I assume. I'm with you on the structural damage being needed for stopping a charge. I think the assumption by most of us is that "stopping rifle" means a cartridge/bullet powerful enough to stop a charge with a chest hit the way a concrete wall would stop a charge. It implies the bullet hits with so much mass and power that it stops the animal much as a body punch from Tyson stopped many boxers. That's the stopping power fallacy of which I complain. Thanks for sharing your observations.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors hi Ron, thanks for the reply and the clarification. I kind of forgot about ol' Pando's KO values, it's on my bookshelves, I should reread his work. You are correct, body shots on an adrenaline fueled animal can be pretty ineffective. Especially with "solids". That is unless we are discussing a 155mm artillery piece. I don't one. Or a 30mm gatking gun from an A-10. One of those would deliver that Mike Tyson body shots. The rest of us mere mortals will have to stick with handheld rifles and learn to work the action quickly. Thanks again for clarifying your thoughts. Keep well.
Cheers, Jeff
Will they even allow a .50 BMG or a.416 Barrett on a safari?
Somewhere at around 20mm you have the border twixt a normal gun and cannon cartridge but there's no international standard on this and each country might have it's own idea where heavy machine guns end and cannons begin.Those African cartridges where also used in India too including very heavy pistols which where your last resort when a Bengal Tiger 🐅 jumped into your carriage atop an elephant 🐘!Those pistols where huge and about the girth of a modern 20 gauge shotgun so it'd be like firing a 20 gauge slug out of a pistol.... unpleasant!
If you want to shoot the nitro express guns you should give Scott at Kentucky Ballistics a call or email or something I'm pretty sure you two can do a video together. That would be awesome.
Cmon Ron . 300 grain for a 45-70 ? They don’t have to load it down . Modern power with modern 400 grain plus are getting 3600 of energy . Why don’t you treat the 4570 like everything else ? Forget the old rifles . Have a look at what it’s doing . Buffalo bore is a good place to start
I’d like to see a video in the 460 s&w out of a rifle. It’s really fast out of a pistol but rifle velocities have to be moving!
It would be close to the 450 Bushmaster.
@@adamneville1809 I shoot a 300 GR out of a 11" barrel on a TC at 2300
577 tyrannosaurus
My husband has 375h&h and a ,416 rigby I can't shoot the lol
I’m selling my .500 A-Square. It was too light and I shot it multiple times in rapid succession on a hunt. I got the Elk and a nasty concussion.
I can relate, my 500 A-Square, scoped, weighs 10.5 Lbs. A bit light as well. Can’t take too many successive shots with it with full patch loads. For those of you that read this and have not heard of the 500 A-Square, it’s, essentially, a 460 Wby Mag necked up to 50 cal. No muzzle brake on mine.
Yes! My rifle is very similar. I hope you enjoy yours. After head, neck, and spine injuries in service, it’s unfortunately off the table for me now.
No offense, Ian, but your experience raises this question: why bother with a 500 A-Square if you have to shoot it multiple times to get the elk? Elk can be and have been terminated with single shots from cartridges as small as 243 Win., perhaps even 223 Rem. Not that they are ideal, but certainly the milder recoiling 300 and 7mm magnums should suffice in lighter, easier-carrying rifles, too. I'm sure you know this, so I suspect you chose the 500 just to enjoy something different. Thanks for sharing your experience!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Thank you for your reply! I promise there was a good reason for this. This happened when I was a captain in the Army at fort Sill, and got drawn for the coveted rifle bull elk tag. Due to a clerical error, my normal hunting rifle (a .308 winchester) was not showing in the MP system as registered, but my bear defense rifle from my time in Fairbanks, AK was. So I was left using 570 Woodleigh Roundnose Softs at a starting velocity of 2300fps. After a long crawling stalk, I shot my elk through the top of the lungs at just shy of 200 yards (ranged) and the impact velocity was about 1875fps. The bullets expanded and exited, but delivered very little "shock". Being on an Artillery base, the elk started running toward the nearby restricted area, with unexploded ordinance. Since it required approval from the post commander to retrieve game from there (which I wouldn't get) I shot until my elk stopped running! But I agree, it was a terrible candidate for an elk hunt.
Tha goat
AND ""YET"" - the ORIGINAL .375 WEATHERBY MAG is/was considered the worst recoiling shoulder fired rifle, & thus eventually became the .378 WEATHERBY MAG, we know today... measures where taken to reduce recoil & improve overall performance of the cartridge over the old
.375 H&H.
I think that depends on rifle weight. My .500 A-square in a 10 pound rifle is absolutely vicious, and beats most things in recoil energy and velocity.
Shooting the 600 The recoil would be like getting shot with a 32 or 380
Sounds like you need to take a trip to Kentucky and visit Scott, Ron. You'll need to take a lot of padding with you. Kentucky Ballistics has more than enough big bore tools to satisfy all your wishes.
I imagine a comedy sketch where Ron tries to give a dignified academic readout, and KB just keeps shooting random stuff right over (camera tricks, nobody in danger) his head. Eventually, Ron gets fed up and shows him how to really use those big guns and makes Kentucky apologize profusely.
@@Mortablunt Ron definitely needs to arrive at the LGS to gets some tools for a Tactical T-Rex hunt.
I was just thinking the same thing. Scott sure could satisfy that desire to shoot a 600 nitro or any of the other big bores that Scott has.
That 300 gr bullet at 1800 fps is a rather anemic loading of the 45-70. There are plenty of loads that exceed 2000 fps and with hand loading that can be pushed to 2400 fps. That’s approaching 4000 ft/lbs of energy (~3850 ft lbs)
Its Odd early on no one really shot 300 grain on 45-70 now its the craze since lever-evolution came out.
The +1800fps rounds you know are all under 400grains factory ammo.
300 grain 315 grain . the hornady lever evolutions are all 315.-325 and they are faster.
The 400-415 grain rounds are basically hot loaded to do 1800-1850fps and they are already jackhammers on your shoulder but they are also good shooters at those fps.
The 1800-1850fps 410 grain rounds especially in a hard cast will go head to ass through a girzly they will kill a elepant.
@@phasechange5053 Yes, the hard cast bullets will not be stopped and have been used on elephant and Cape Buffalo and with great success. I really see no difference between the hard cast lead bullet and the non-expanding dangerous game bullets factory loaded for dangerous game in traditional rifles made for use in Africa. Check out Garrett Cartridge Company in Texas and their Hammer +P round. Garrett specializes in making ammunition for the .45-70 and .44 Rem Mag.
@@Mark-uq9km But oddly not for .444 Marlin. You'd think it would be an obvious fit for them.
@@jic1 Yes, you would think especially since the .444 Marlin is a souped up .44 Rem mag.
45/7 fans getting a reality check is great lmao.
Love you Mr Spomer. Don’t know exactly how old you are but in my opinion you are the grandpa everyone wants and needs.
Grandpa Ron thanks you!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors how about giving us airgunners some love. They go from .177 to .82 cal. Or 20mm
The .460 Weatherby used to be loaded almost 100 FPS faster and produced over 8000 pounds of energy in it's original form. But few could handle the recoil and the rumor was, as you stated, that the bullets just couldn't take the speed so it was "tamed" a bit. There are plenty of .45-70 factory loading that push energy over 3500 foot pounds and higher in modern rifles such as the Marlin 1895's and Henry Big Boy's. It's long been proven though that pretty much any .40 and up delivering 4000 plus foot pounds of energy is perfectly acceptable for any and all African game. And it's long been proven that if you know what you're doing you don't even need that much but I'd rather have a little margin for error myself. My choice would be a .416 Rigby for the nostalgia but a .416 Ruger or Remington would be just fine as well. Above that probably a .470 Nitro, again, for the nostalgia or a .458 Lott for the practicality. Or, you know, if I could get a deal on a fine .500 Nitro double rifle I wouldn't say no.
Lmao😆
Agreed! I am planning on going to SA for a plains game Safari and am leaning towards a Winchester Model 70 in 416 rem mag just in case a buff shows up!
@@dangoldbach6570 don’t listen to this fool his number are all wrong!
@@dangoldbach6570 8000 ftbs of energy in a 460 Weatherby? I hope he has sought help since.
@Ron-Swanson yeah that's a whole lot of kick for sure! Maybe if a buff was wearing Kevlar 😂
I like the Taylor Knockout Value to provide a realistic capability number on cartridge bullet effect on wild game. The diameter of the bullet plays a part in the effectiveness of the bullet.
Yep.
Almost picked up a beautiful mauser in 458 win mag with a curly maple stock last Friday for only $600 and I'm kicking myself for not buying it. To be fair, I'm not hunting houses or other small buildings, so it would be overkill for everything else.
If you handload, the .458 Mag is very versatile, I have even loaded some very light round ball loads and have used it for small game, literally can be used on anything from rabbits, to elephants.
Down here in Aussie land, my biggest cartridge is a 700 HBH.... 1000 grain Hollowpoints @ 2000 fps out of the 13.5 inch barrel...
I used to have a William Evans Underlever Double Rifle chambered in 450/400 3 1/4 Nitro Express. It was made in 1898 for a minor member of the Royal Family and was fully engraved with the rose and scroll pattern. It was a great rifle and a lot of fun to shoot. In a fit of extreme stupidity I sold it. That is the one I'd like to have back!
Wrong Answer RPOC! You get a shipwreck comment for that error!
Lord I’d say…man that sounds like a beaut
I love my .460 Weatherby Magnum. I have it in a Ruger #1, and a Weatherby MkV, only shoot them standing, so sticks or a slack line at the range to support my rifles. Lots of fun, and always makes the bench commandos with their AR's look twice. One thing about the big bores, the rifles are such fine quality, the fit and finish on them is always a cut above the rest. I think a NE is in my future, just need to keep an eye out for one.
Love my .460. I get the same weird looks from the others at the local municipal range, mine also seems to bring out the town's police chief.
@@gimpyRW I have a 460 Weatherby, i'm 72 , a big boy. Loved the Ma Deuce in the Army. I don't know about shooting this 460 , afraid i might detach a retina. Think i will put it in a sled and touch one off. I live on a farm , and everyone within a mile or two knows it's just Crazy Carl having a little fun. Another farm boy about 1.5 miles away touched off 10 pounds of tannerite several years ago. Nobody said peep squat. Guess we have them used to the boom. Have fun.
Had a 460 Wby in a Ruger No. 1. The barrel needed to be ported. Two Mercury recoil reducers installed in the stock and a Limb Saver air Tech recoil pad. It might be shootable.
It sounds crazy but everything I’ve shot with a 45/70, 405gr bullet, 1250fps, has died where it stood. It is truly different for some reason. It puts a wallop on them!
There are several ammo manufacturers that sell 4570 In 405 and larger grain bullets that have at least 2000 FPS muzzle velocity. Academy sells Hornady 4570 in 325 grain bullet grain with a muzzle velocity of 2000 FPS for $49.95 for 20 which is about the lowest price I've seen.
@@ronnieskaggs8148 I load ALL my own ammo. I have some 525 and 535 grain bullets to load. I’ve shot a few already but wasn’t pleased using AA5744. At the lower velocity they left unturned powder in the bore. I’m thinking of trying a magnum primer as the velocity I was getting was what I wanted. I like to shoot and have fun doing it. Those high velocity loads aren’t fun for me. I’ve never found a need for it. I can easily shoot out to 200 yards. I’ve learned how to shoot them. I have a vernier sight to put on my Remington rolling block to stretch it out farther. Search for “The 45/70 at Two Miles”. I think you will be amazed at what the old standard load will do.
I have seen videos where the penatration was the deepest with the 405 grain bullets even better than 500 grain due to the even slower velocity of the 500 grain 4570 ammo. Hope your shoulder is OK 😉
@@tlloyd9325 I have read where bison were taken at 700 yards with the original 4570 405 grain loads at around 1350 FPS muzzle velocity back in the late 1800 hundreds.
Hi Ron, you say that people don't go hunting with 50 BMGs. Keith Warren (whom you probably know), his son does and he once produced a video of a Kudu hunt with a 50cal. A very unimpressive scenario then played out. It showed that 50 BMGs are not the weapon for hunting and a few other things too.
I find it absolutely wild that large bore shoulder fired guns like the 20mm Lahti or other similar 20mm to 25mm anti-tank cartridges put out anywhere from 30,000 to 50,000 Ft-lbs of muzzle energy, it's hard to wrap your head around. Imagine taking large game with a 20mm hollowpoint, the things are usually doing 3000-3500 fps lol.
I own an 18 inch single shot 50 bmg rifle.
All in I think the rifle weighs something like 9lbs or so. The muzzle break is so damn good. and im not BS. The recoil is little more than a 30-30.
shooting 660 grain ammo.
Was waiting for the description of the examples shown aside from a few cherry picked , would've been nice to list them left to right or vv
My uncle was working on a 572 ross back before old man barnes packed up his shop . It was based on the 600 nitro and would have been the premier sniper weapon . But was about 5 years ahead of the bullet and powder tech .right in that time gunny Hathcock took the sear off a ma deuce and that became history .
Level 3 .45-70 using 3031 rifle powder and 500 grain jacketed bullets or 550 grain hard cast lead bullets will crowd the lower end of the .458 Magnum spectrum. Use only in modern falling block or rebarreled Siamese Mauser (will feed rimmed cartridges). These loads will spring and warp Winchester and Marlin lever actions (use level 2 loads) and turn trapdoor Springfields into a pipe bomb (use level 1 or factory cartridges).
I am thinking about .45-70 improved. Not much gain in performance but peace of mind knowing it would be impossible to chamber in wrong action strength rifles.
I deliberately kept this vague to keep TH-cam censors from having a hoplophobic reaction and (urinating) all over the floor.
If I can ever afford Alaska big 3 (moose, bison, and Kodiak bear, this is what I would use in a single shot rifle.
In the Ruger #1 or Siamese Mauser a maximum load 4064 will propel a 400 grain jacketed bullet to 2200 fps with resulting 4298 ft lbs muzzle energy. As you say, don’t get these loads anywhere around your Marlins, Henrys or any other lever guns. In a trap door it’s called an IED. In my Siamese Mauser I like the medium range 300 grain JHP. Not to punishing to shoot. For safety I don’t own any 45-70 lever guns. I do have a rolling block I used to shoot black powder cartridge silhouette with. I only used black powder behind the 400 grain cast lead wheel weight or other alloy. Also used different brand cases for the rolling block vs the Mauser. Never any jacketed bullets in the rolling block. I do keep a few of the 400 grain hot loads around for the Mauser just in case the dinosaurs come back.
I've guided the northern Rockies for decades. There are two common causes for misses or wounded game. Recoil/flinch. I've seen far more one shot kills with the 30-06 family of cartridges than I have with any of the big magnums. The second reason is people think because they have a cartridge with long range energy to take Elk, they take shots at ranges far beyond their abilities as a rifleman e
Misses at long range are mostly shooting low beyond 350 yards because they don't understand how quickly bullet drop accelerates at long range. When new hunters arrive at the ranch we take them out to the range to "check" zero. We have targets at random ranges out to 600 yards. We do it to get an idea how well the shooter performs before we ride out to camp. Before we leave the ranch we chrono their loads and I have a small card in my pocket for each hunter that tells me ballistic data and shooting ability and I do everything I can to make the shooter hunt well inside their effective range
30-06 has taken everything in north America with a well placed shot
You need to add in the specs to a 950 JDJ into this group. The largest civilian caliber in the world.
My "big rifle" is a 338 Lapua shooting 300gr bullets. At 2800 fps, it produces 5220 ft/lbs of energy which out-penetrates almost everything else. Compares really well with the "big bores", but not always legal in all African countries. IME, once recoil goes over 75-80 ft/lbs, most people start to really feel it (& start to flinch), and the bigger you are, the more it hurts...there are a lot of records of men from the late 1800's - early 1900's shooting 4,6,8 bore rifles & developing a permanent flinch.
I'd be curious to see the recoil difference compared to the 458 Lott.
Most of new owners of rifles here in forest part of Russia choose .308 and 9,3x62 cartridges.
I was thinking that I am crazy because I bought .300WM and .375H&H as my first barrels.
Till I have become know that my friend's first rifles are .338-378 Weatherby and .460 Weatherby (in the forest region).
Thank you Ron for another very interesting cartridge review. I had two business partners, one a modern magnum cartridge guy and the other black powder, large bore shooter. The magnum partner had a Remington rifle in 458 WM and the black powder partner had a Siamese Mauser in 45-70 with hand loads. To see them shoot them side by side at the bench was entertaining. I am sure they both had concussions by the end of the day, but neither would admit it. I decided to stick with my 7mmRM and 300WM.
A heavy Sharps in 45-70 to .50-90 etc. are not as difficult for me as a light Mountain rifle I had in 30-06 which slapped the crap out of you if you didn't know what you were doing. And the .458 mag can be down loaded. I shoot a .405 in an 1895 and it's no more recoil than a good 270 or 30-06 in a light weight gun.
I shoot hogs with a 450/400 double; just for nostalgia! Plus I love Jim Corbett stories. Are there better bullets and cheaper cartridges for this task? Absolutely! But you can't beat a fine double in medium to big bore.
It'd be awesome to see him do a video on the 405 Winchester
Thank you the post on the big bores. I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but at the rifle range, after having shot anywhere from 25-40 rounds of .30-06 and even .308 with recoil that can't compare to the big bores, I get punch drunk. I have to wait about 15 minutes after shooting to 'sober up' because I don't think I'm safe to drive. I'm a big guy and I actually don't mind recoil. But it does have an effect on me. I am not one of the guys that takes 10 minutes between each shot, so I'm getting in more shots in an hour and a half than some other more fussy marksmen.
Might be the muzzle blast effecting you physiologically.
Had my bell rung by my .450 bushmaster, a Roger carbine bolt action with the ridiculous muzzle brake. Shooting from a box blind, muzzle out the window, that brake directed the blast back in with me... my mouth was open when I fired, my tongue was tingling and my vision was blurry for quite a while, coyote had a fist size hole through its chest. When I got back to the house, I promptly removed the muzzle brake, no more issues after that.
I once watched a young woman sneak around to where she was almost even with the muzzle of a .25-06, and this was before muzzle brakes became popular. The shooter (her boyfriend) warned her not to get too close, so she backed off a few steps (and I must say it was a formal range, but with NO officers or range officials of any type) and he touched off 1 round. She yelped a bit and left the range, bleeding mildly from the nose. Her sympathetic boyfriend tsk tsk'ed and said, "Well, I did warn her"...
Ron Spomer- "some use these for African big game, and then there is some ....." As Kentucky ballistics shoots watermelons with the 700 nitro and blows up 50 bmgs lol. Great video Mr. Spomer
I held a .600 N.E. at a Gun Show. It's stock & forearm were made of Marble. It weighed 22lbs.
They wanted only $60,000 for it!
Great video. How do these big bores compare to a 12 gauge rifled slug when it comes to taking large animals at close range? (In my Remington 870 slugs are pretty punishing to shoot.)
I found your channel because of a videogame, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, and I was wondering if a calibre 416 was real. I learned something new today! I got my basic gun handling class a year ago and I really want to get into hunting, but firearms in Canada are really expensive and so regulated that I'm afraid if I buy a gun today it may become illegal and get confiscated tomorrow. Keep up this informative channel Ron!
I have some .416 Barrett brass it’s definitely impressive