Oh dear, here we go again. The majority of Operas have silly and/or crazy plots. lol Opera is not about the "plot" but themes and ideas, not to mention the music obviously. It is a melodrama. Il Trovatore has everything; love, hate, revenge, regret. Lot's of tension and passion galore. And some of the most beautiful and majestic music there is in an opera. Furthermore, the great thing about Il trovatore is that its wonderful music isn't just for the tenor and/or soprano, but for everybody involved; Tenor, Soprano, Baritone, Mezzo, Bass, Chorus and Orchestra. Just yesterday I re-listen to Price, Corelli, Bastianini, Simionato recording with Karajan, during Salzburger Festspiele in 1962. My god! I was on the edge the whole time and almost hold my breath during the whole time, only to release and cry by the end of it. Absolute perfection. If an Opera doesn't stir those kind of feelings in you, but instead you're too busy to solve the "plot", then probably it isn't a genre for you. Il Trovatore doesn't need "saving" (not that the likes of Kaufmanns' and Netrebkos' could save anything with their awful singing). It has been there before us and will still be loved and cherished long after, simply because it is fantastic music. VIVA VERDI!
Thank you for your comment! Good for you that you enjoy operas in your own way - you do you! But in my opinion the world has moved on from a time where opera will have enough fans or audiences no matter what as long as the singers sing beautifully. You can like it or not - it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the present and the future generation have different expectations of what makes a performance great and worth seeing it live in a theater. Since opera and theater are living and breathing art forms change and development aren't not just not bad but quintessential. The best example for this is Verdi himself who developed his art from, let's say, I due Foscari to Don Carlo, Otello and Falstaff - away from composing his sensational music to whatever libretto he was offered to literature focused operas. Things are not as black and white as you claim them to be. You can love opera simultaneously caring for the music AND the plot... And finally: "Oh dear, here we go again."? Your quote fits perfectly to your bashing of Netrebko and Kaufmann. You don't like them? Alright, don't like them, that's fine. Are they my favorite singers? No. But to say that they are awful singers ist just silly. Is the 1962 recording you mentioned great? Yes, it is. No need though to trash everything which doesn't sound like 1962... I like strong opinions and I appreciate your comment very much. And I am happy to hear and discuss opinions which are far from my own. Live and let live, I guess...
What a delightful surprise! Thank you for sharing the Bayerische production. I posted the video with English subtitles because I found the singing and acting to be of excellent quality, although I admit the production itself was at times difficult to understand, and at worst, downright dreadful. (The most shocking moment for me was the appearance of the two huge dolls in Act 3, Scene 1) 😱. However, despite the implausibility of the story, I must say the libretto itself is rather well crafted. It features a tightly woven plot, some beautifully poetic lyrics, vivid imagery, and avoids the common pitfall of repetitive language due to limited vocabulary. Conversely, there are some librettos where, despite the relatable story, the writing is subpar (e.g., Cavalleria rusticana). In any case, I thoroughly enjoyed your post and found myself laughing quite a bit.
Thank you for your comment and your kind words! And especially thanks for adding the English subtitles 🙏 Evidently, no surprise there, I committed the sin of exaggerating in order to lure the poor viewers into my video 😄 As a matter of fact I love Trovatore and any opera where the baritone calls the tenor "temerario!" is an automatic winner in my book... ✌
What a refreshing take on the various aspects of this opera! I agree with you that no. 3 is the one I'd also like to watch live. In the recording studio it's hard to beat Milnes and Pavarotti but as a stage production, they might as well have put cardboard figures on stage, played the recording and sent the orchestra and singers home.
At the beginning of the movie "Educating Rita," she gets an exam essay question about how to solve the staging difficulties of Peer Gynt (I think). Her full answer: Do it on the radio.
Hello! The libretto of Il Trovatore is based on a play by Antonio García Gutiérrez, premiered in 1836. Several modifications are introduced in the libretto that make the plot more incredible than the play itself. Even so, I personally love this opera because it is the epitome of romantic delirium. Another thing is that the set design does not help to understand the work and makes it even more absurd, for example that in the Bayerische Staatsoper production Leonora is blind or in the Staatsoper Berlin production, the gypsy camp scene that seems taken from the Goya's Caprichos or Disparates. Fortunately on TH-cam we can see other productions in which the script is not distorted and, more importantly, well sung. As for operatic plots in general, we have some pretty crazy ones and a lot of detestable characters, but music can do it all. Thanks for your videos.
Thank you for your comment! I have to agree that opera plots have the tendency to be a little, let's say, underwhelming when it comes to logic or modern storytelling. But since the underlying eternal truth about human emotions can be felt in all of the great works we love so much it is the responsibility of theaters to present them in a way even an audience with less developed passion for opera see that and fall for them 🙂
It is indeed VERY difficult to find a perfect work that contains everything. Verdi unfortunately was imo the biggest victim of this. Probably due to his long career and he was almost the monopoly that time, he had to yield to some limitations. I absolutely agree that there isn’t much on stage drama, thus making all the music almost purely self-expressive, which could work well if the music is sweet and dramatic enough. But in my opinion, writing sweet melodies isn’t really Verdi’s strongest thing (not everyone is Bellini after all). That’s why I also had a time where I had to get myself used to Trovatore. That’s why I believe while singing works like this, we can only do what Caruso said. You need to find the 4 best singers in the world to sing their hearts out and milk all music possible. Otherwise we got Netrebko, watching her sing has no difference from not watching her sing at all. This is not what opera is about. As Callas said, people go to the theatre to experience something, the singers thus must create “something” for the audience.
Thank you for your comments, I appreciate it very much. So interesting that you, as many others, have no love left for Netrebko (and the same goes for Kaufmann...). Probably there have been better sopranos at some time or another but is she really that bad? I think she was a very important artist in her prime, singing really well and performing with great intensity and authenticity. winning new audiences for opera. I am just talking about this because I am a bit disturbed about how harsh some comments judge some singers 🤷♂
@@peterpawlik2495 Netrebko’s Violetta (production with Kaufmann and Hvorostovsky at Royal Opera House) was memorable: she sang beautifully and her acting was incredible. there was no question throughout that the character was very sick (i.e., didn’t have to wait for a mandatory clearing of the throat; she wheezed repeatedly🤠) I only wish it would have been filmed. And Kaufmann has taken my breath away in Carmen, Tosca, or La Traviata with Angela Gheorghiu, etc)
I also liked the final production with Kaufmann the best tho I don’t hunt for this opera when I want to listen to music. I watched a version with Hvorostovsky and Jose Cura: great singing as expected, and stars were easy on the eye. Dima dressed in beautiful blue uniform. Fight scene was much better and Cura seemed into. it. Well acted and more classic opera, in my opinion But ……what an unbelievable story?!
Rare win for the BSO. When it comes to staging. Seen quite a few of them now and aside from the excellent wnd moving „war and peace“ they usually range from „cool. But why?“ (Lucia/Idomeneo) to „what in the world were you thinking? Who thought this was a good idea?!“ (Macbeth)
Do i sense a tiny, tiny bias for the Bayerische Staatsoper? 🙄😄 But yeah, that's the BSO in a nutshell. But I like that. Sometimes it's a complete embarrassment , sometimes fantastic, but never dull. And Berlin has, as Vienna does, the advantage of having one or two additional opera houses which function as a regulatory: audiences will always find a production which is more suited to their tastes...
@@peterpawlik2495 well it is my operatic home base and I love it dearly.🥹🤗 P.S. don‘t sleep on the Gärtnerplatztheater. Yes the Parkettseats are literal torture devices, but their Werther was one ox the most intense productions of a piece I have ever seen. (Sophie Rennert as Charlotte was a particular highlight of my Opera going life.
Kaufmann and Netrebko saving Il trovatore? Good gracious. There are some spectacular singers out there today, not sure why you keep focusing on the bad ones.
I agree that there are spectacular singers out there besides Netrebko and Kaufmann. But to say that Netrebko and Kaufmann are not great singers (even if they are not to your taste)gets a bit boring in my opinion. I am not a Netrebko or Kaufmann fanatic, far from it, but I really, really can't listen to this kind of b/w and overly harsh judgement anymore. Some like them, some don't. Where does this need for condemnation come from? 🤷♂
@@peterpawlik2495I agree. Many people think they are listening to Kaufmann and Netrebko when they were 30, and just beginning their international careers. They are in their 50s now, with great successes to remember. Kaufmann is still singing well, albeit with more caution; Netrebko, it can be argued, has sung too many heavy roles to be completely successful nowadays.
I think Norma wins the stupid libretto prize. Who knew virgin priestesses got such long sabbaticals, no questions asked? And Clothilde, what's with the diaper bag? But I digress. Agreed, 3rd production is the watchable one, tho I agree the locomotive is inexplicable. I thought of the wheels/gears on both the scrim and set as echoing how the characters are caught, both by the situation and their emotions. Yes, that might apply more appropriately to Forza, but still works here, IMHO. The set on #2 was ridiculous; looked like a prison courtyard. Di Luna's castle would be better fashioned, and why would the gypsies be popping into the same place? You'd think Deutsche Oper could afford better, and smarter.
Thank you for comment! Well, in the end it doesn't matter who won the contest of "worst libretto". It's just a fun exercise thinking and talking about it...Your thoughts about the meaning of the wheels in München might be right but I guess we will never know. And that's fine with me. And it's funny: "You'd think Deutsche Oper could afford better, and smarter."? That's verbatim what I thought too when seeing it for the first time
Beverly Sills once said that she found the Norma libretto laughable. For example, her declaration, “Norma never lies!” Well, she’s been lying throughout the entire opera.
Now they overact their presence on stage so it distracts the public from their singing abilities. I still prefer a good opera singer than a good actor on stage. If one can have both, that's superb, otherwise I keep the first one and let the second one go.
I had such a great laugh at this your latest video. It is fantastic! At last an opera I know something about, having seen it twice at the ROH, each time with a brilliant cast. But first, my opinion on these three. Pavarotti one, boring. Domingo as the count, nonsensical. And the last, ah the last. Three voices which are absolutely wonderful, in a production which was totally silly! So much nakedness, puppetry and bizarre scenery. It was almost as if the director had tried to cram every gimmick in the book to push the story and make it more interesting. It didn't really work in my opinion. I felt so sorry for the singers having to put up with such piffle! In 1989, I saw an outstanding production - a gala production with royalty present - at the ROH, Covent Garden. It had Domingo (as Manrico) Willand White and Rosalind Plowright. It was an absolutely, jaw-droppingly brilliant, and more traditional interpretation. I will never forget it. The second one I have seen is the one with Dmitri Hvorostovsky as the Count, Jose Cura as Manrico and Veronica Villarroel as Leonora, again at the ROH. Now, if I could have swapped Cura for Kaufmann it would have been very near to perfection - even if the Count was so drop-dead gorgeous Leonora must have wanted her brain feeling not to run off with him immediately! I suppose you could say that, for me, staring moonstruck at Dmitri, this production didn't really work as the Count was far too attractive in both sound and appearance to be the nasty, controlling, murdering character he was meant to be. It's probably a good job Jonas Kaufmann wasn't in it as I'd have melted in my seat. But what a dream team that would have been.😅 So I'd have to say that the 1989 Domingo production is the best I've ever seen.
very happy to see that my attempt of being funny worked for you 😄🙏 If I may quote you: "I felt so sorry for the singers having to put up with such piffle!" That's one more thing I admire about the professionalism of great opera singers: that they commit to a production how silly it might be. I am sure it's not easy to go on stage after you have seen yourself in the mirror of your dressing room wearing a silly costume and wig (like in Berlin)... So: much respect for them! There are few incidences where singers simply reject a director's or costume designer's ideas and walk away. I don't know if it's true but I heard about a Rigoletto production (in Germany 🙄) which had a Planet of the Apes theme, including the costumes and the wigs and makeup. And Ramon Vargas, who was supposed to sing the conte, quit and left the production on the first day of rehearsal. If that's true I wouldn't blame him 😄 About the ROH production: Well, lucky you to have been in the presence of the Royal Family 👍 And I am glad you mentioned Rosalind Plowright. I only know her from the Trovatore recording under Giulini but I loved her in that recording 😊
@@peterpawlik2495 The Planet of the Apes? For goodness sakes. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Oh I would have paid good money to see that, even if I wouldn't have been able to stop laughing. Just another director who enjoys a bit of monkeying around I guess. Lol
@@peterpawlik2495 I did not get anywhere near Lady Di or Prince Charles (at that time.) I was sat in the cheap seats up in the "gods." All the singers looked like ants. They sounded fantastic though. I remember waiting for hours at the stage door for Placido Domingo to come out. I managed to get a few autographs but not his. He'd exited via the front entrance in the company of the royals to attend a dinner party apparently!
The sets for the first two seemed sterile, in fact the first one was almost "Il Trovatore in Concert". I certainly couldn't say that about the third one but I didn't like the shower curtain either! Despite the fact that it contains one of my favourite numbers (Miserere) which was also one of the first pieces of opera that I ever listened to, Il Trovatore is not one of my favourites. This is because I find the story preposterous and nasty, so I think we may agree about it.
Thank you for your comment! I guess Il Trovatore is one of those pieces where the listeners react in a mostly binary way: they love it or they don't. Or it's a love-hate-relationship as in my case 😄
That’s okay. If the soprano, tenor, mezzo, and baritone can sing this opera beautifully, they can sing anything. Verdi demands the very best singing in Trovatore. And who cares about the story! Nowadays, new operas are produced all the time with subjects ripped from the headlines. And they are never heard from again. People always return to Trovatore because of the incredible music.
Thank you for your comment! Yes, people will always love Trovatore - and rightfully so! But it's still a silly libretto 🤷♂😄 But as many commentators have pointed out: Trovatore is not alone there...
I was laughing really sweetly. 😂And I learned something again.🙂 My only fear is, if I continue to be your student (which is certain), how will I experience operas in the future?🤔
Thank you for your comment - I appreciate it very much! I will for sure check out the mentioned production since it has those two exceptional singers in it. But to be honest I can't promise that I will make a video about it since my focus is more on present productions. 🙂
With a knitting needle my mother was able to perform miracles ....🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I liked Leonora being blind, but the confusion is because in the opera they are brothers, and they are supposed to look alike. They could put masks on the actors. In this case, Leonora is blind but not stupid, and she chose Kaufman as her boyfriend. Gypsies like to travel, so I guess that's why they put a locomotive. The wheels between scenes look like the ones that appeared on television between shows in the 50s. My guesses.
Thank you for trying to make sense of the Berlin production. True that Manrico and Luna should have some resemblance since they are brothers. And confusing one for the other is forgivable especially when it happens in the dark. It's for sure more realistic than the plot of Cosi fan tutte where the men just put on some turban and the women don't recognize them anymore at all 😄
Не буду сравнивать Leonora, их много очень хороших и прекрасных. То же касается и Azucena. А вот лучшие на мой взгляд Manrico это Aureliano Pertile, MDM, Corelli and Franco Bonisoli. Любимые Conte di Luna - Apollo Granforte, Ettore Bastianini, Giangiacomo Guelfi. Дирижеров сейчас тоже не буду сравнивать, никакого места не хватит😁 И как жаль, что в этом Вашем видео не включены субтитры. Я не так хорошо знаю английский язык, чтобы понять всё😕Глубоко уважаю Вас🥰
Thank you for your comment! I think your list of extraordinary singers for each role is quite convincing. I am not such an an expert as you when it comes to singers before 1980 but some of those names you mentioned are legends. If I may add one name to your list: I think Zancanaro was a phantastic Luna as well but he seems to be not as popular in the opera community...? 🤷♂ About English subtitles: I will look into it and try to make it happen. I am sure it's not that complicated, I just have to do some research on it... Again thank you. Your thoughts are very appreciated!
Thank you for your comment and for being an advocate for "la parole". Often we don't take into consideration enough that it is the words which inspire the composers to write their music...
I came to Trovatore early in my opera fandom, so I fell in love with it without any qualms about its dramatic klutziness. Forza was later for me, and it never got through to me despite some great music because I couldn’t get past its book.
After seeing 300+ live opera performances on the stage, I only saw Forza for the very first time last month. I told my adult children, “it shouldn’t be called ‘The Force of Destiny,’ it should be called ‘The Force of Ridiculous Coincidences!’” Yes, the music is fantastic, but the story is beyond redemption.
@@wotan10950 It's like the strange uncle at the thanksgiving dinner: we might find his political views not agreeable but he still is family so we love him 😂
I LOVE Trovatore. And it is for sure far from being the worst opera. I just enjoyed talking about the libretto and seeing what the viewers opinion about it would be 🙂
Il Trovatore being a bad opera is a personal opinion. There are many operas with bad stories, librettos. But who cares? I certainly don’t. Most of us are there for the great music and beautiful singing.
Thank you for your comment! You are right: who cares? It's still fun talking about different aspects or perspectives and starting a conversation. And no doubt: Trovatore is despite it's libretto a masterpiece 🙂
@@peterpawlik2495 I am not very experienced with computers. I just find a lot of Il Trovatore on ytub. There are lots of Corelli-Bastianini post. Sorry, that's all I can suggest. If you have a better solution, I would appreciated it. Thanks.
Yes, the plot of Il Trovatore is idiotic, but is it really that much worse than most of the rest of the repertoire? People seem to apply a standard of logic to il trovatore that they do not extend to other works. I am bothered much more by the ending of Ernani than I am by anything in Il Trovatore. Several comments mention the silliness of Norma, which surely is just as bad as Il trovatore. And everybody gives Wagner a pass because of his focus on myth and legend, but almost nothing in his librettos make any sense by the same criteria. by the way, I interpret Leonora's confusion of Di Luna for Manrico in act 1 as foreshadowing -- of course they are brothers, so they look similar in the dark.
Thank you for your comment - I really liked it! And you are right: Trovatore is not the worst example of, let's say: "interesting" libretti. Many of the baroque operas for example have stories much more absurd. In Germany there is this saying: "Was sich liebt, das neckt sich". There is no good way to translate that elegantly into English but the meaning of it is that you like to tease someone/something you love. And that was the spirit I was in when I took the video 🙂
Sorry to hear about your disappointing experience with Trovatore. If the only part you liked was the Anvil Chorus then I can only assume that the singers weren't the greatest because if this opera is sung well it WILL catch you, in my opinion. Better luck next time 🤞🙂
Thanks for this hilarious video. I had a good laugh and greatly enjoyed it. Unfortunately, Il Trovatore has always been regarded as the epitome of operatic silliness. The Marx brothers used is as the opera being performed in their movie comedy "Night at the Opera" and Gilbert and Sullivan pilloried it in "The Pirates of Penzance." In my opinion, there is no way anyone can make this opera work dramatically much as no one can make Ponchielli's La Gioconda work dramatically. However, It is not correct to say that all operas or all Verdi operas are like this as some have commented here. Verdi's Traviata, Rigoletto and Falstaff, for example, work wonderfully as musical dramas because the underlying stories are so good and the characters remain convincing as human beings long after the opera were composed. I agree that the third production is the best, but it too is bad. The blonde bewigged Netrebo in the second production looks like a crazed witch from Verdi's Macbeth. The lumpish and static Pavarotti in the Met production is beyond absurd. The scrim in the third is beyond cheap, as you point out, and the industrial symbolism and locomotive are beyond human comprehension. My thinking is that Il Trovatore is beyond salvaging as a viable stage production despite its magnificant score. However, who cannot but be stirred by hearing Strida la Vampa or the Miserere or the Anvil chorus? Perhaps the answer is a concert performance for future productions.
Thank you for your comment! And please stay strong: there will be a great production of Trovatore in the near future, I really believe that. Or maybe we just haven't seen this magical production but it is there in the Mariana Trench of the internet waiting for us to discover it? Thank you for writing and: Take care!
Right on! I have to say that having read El Trovador in the original Spanish , the play is not without a certain lunatic charm and the language is absolutely beautiful. The same could be said about Don Alvaro o la Fuerza del Sino.
Nothing interesting about German regie concepts of opera, just the blown up egos of modern stage directors. Take a modern play and bring as many dishwashers, locomotives and surgical beds on stage as you want. Leave Il Trovatore and the other classical operas alone! We love them with all their absurdity and fairy tale narratives.
Is there any opera that isn't ridunkulous😄? Who even watches or listens to opera for the plot or character development or the insight into the human condition or any other profundity the arts lovers get from pretentious cinema & such? Isn't that the very reason why the term "OPERATIC" was coined to begin with & for which there is practically no other equivalent? 😂🤪 How are Don Giovanni & Rigoletto as well as the overused "women disguised as men" device in opera not any less hilarious? Are we to believe people during those days couldn't tell that it's just a woman wearing a costume when they had not even a tiny fraction of the technology & tools we now have at our disposal? Lol! I listen (primarliy, even when I watch) to opera just for the music & singing. The sets, costumes, subpar acting lol, stories? Sure, they can be great, ludicrous or often both, too. But they don't really matter ultimately. Those are what the plays are for. Opera to me is all about just THE SINGERS, who could just be, like in recitals, standing still on stage in beautiful, semi-formal but modern clothing for all I care. The end.
Thank you for your comment and for your so vividly expressed thoughts - I like it even if I don't agree 👍 I would suggest "melodramatic" as an equivalent to "operatic"? Let me just say one thing about the "woman disguised as a man". You are right: nobody was fooled by that. But to fool the audience was never the intention to begin with in my opinion. If you take for example Cherubino: To write this role for a mezzo-soprano was Mozart's way to show the heightened sensitivity of a teenager, his vulnerability and the confusion of an adolescent who still has to find his identity... Anyway, that's it. I very much appreciate that you shared your thoughts with us 🙏
@@peterpawlik2495 Nah, "melodrama" like on TV soap opera is just a little "too extra" but is confined to just serious/dramatic fiction, though still within the bounds of reality and doesn't include the utterly ridiculous, hilarious or lugubrious (so ludicrously sad that it's hilarious). There's no other term than "operatic" for the latter that I could think of. I was talking about the realism of operatic plots in general when I cited the disguises. It's just one of the overly used devices that to me meant they weren't to be taken THAT seriously at all. I just don't think people 2 to 4 centuries ago were that different or more gullible than us today. They considered opera to be "operatic" also. Lol
@@Dr__Feelgood Alright, you are the native speaker so I won't try to win this battle 😄 But still: come on! There so many sensational smart libretti from Don Giovanni over L'elisir d'amore to Falstaff - to say that all libretti are stupid? You are too smart to believe that. I think you just enjoy provoking me 😄
@@peterpawlik2495 Mozart did not write it for a mezzo-soprano. Dorotea Bussani was a soprano. It became a mezzo-soprano role today due to its limited range. Travesti roles have existed in opera for a long time and have socio-political reasons of the time. I suggest reading "Voicing Gender: Castrati, Travesti, and the Second Woman in Early-Nineteenth-Century Italian Opera".
@@peterpawlik2495 Falstaff is a bit silly. However I would 100% agree there are great libretti out there. And great libretti WITH travesti roles. Il crociato in Egitto by Meyerbeer is spectacular. As is Anna Bolena by Donizetti and Rosmonda d'Inghilterra.
Hard no! It must have meaning, or at least the intent of meaning, to be true opera, a term which is understood to mean music drama. If the libretto is meaningless we might as well skip the staging altogether and have the singers sing Wikipedia articles or statistical tables.
Thank you for your comment! But I have to side with @diecheneydie: Opera is more than music. In my opinion it should be the perfect combination of theater and music. If it were just about the music it would be enough to listen to CDs (for the younger people: Thats how we consumed music before Spotify...). I am aware that this beforementioned synthesis of music and theater is not always possible but I still think we should always try to make an effort in order to keep opera alive and relevant for future generations. And that includes, I think, to be curious to find new perspectives those great pieces can be looked at...🤷♂
Who cares about the libretto? I hate the way we apply theatrical straight drama to opera. Opera and drama aren’t the same. Opera is much more closer to ballet. Think Giselle, Le Corsaire, Swan Lake. They all have ridiculous plots.
Thank you for your comment! Who cares about the libretto? Well, I would say for example Gluck who worked with Calzabigi on Orfeo, Alceste and Paride ed Elena or Verdi who, as he progressed in age as well in artistic virtuosity, started to work with Arrigo Boito in order to find a better synthesis between music and words/plots. Or Richard Strauss? Or this guy - what's his name? - ah yes: Mozart, who worked with da Ponte. Or Wagner? I would say that opera and drama have at least the same "mission statement". They might not be identical twins but very close relatives nonetheless....
@@peterpawlik2495 the mission statement for opera, especially in the Bel Canto era is to show off the voice and even within music drama era, looking especially at Wagner, the dramatic impetus from the text is so negligible and dramatically hollow, the libretto would be deemed useless without the music. You mention Da Ponte, Boito and the most famous librettists. They only wrote a small proportion of the works of these composers. Boito worked on 3 Verdi operas out of 26 altogether including revisions. If you look at Felice Romani, Metastasio, Gaetano Rossi et al. Their general approach is based on feelings needed to be expressed by the principal actors and atmosphere as opposed to straight, logical drama. This is much more in tune with ballet than with straight drama and Verdi was happy to sacrifice logical realism, for the sake of this. This is why Il Trovatore is a prime example of bel canto. Each scene, aria, duet, ensemble is there to show a dramatic emotion, within a loose overall plot.
@@peterpawlik2495 think opera and drama can be similar when looking at certain librettists, but Boito and Daponte contributed very little to even Mozart’s and Verdi’s output, not to mention opera in general. Boito wrote 4 original libretti still in rep today and Da Ponte wrote three. Look at Metastasio, Rossi, Felice Romani for a better look at drama in opera and it’s much closer to the dramatic language of ballet, than straight drama. I also think there’s far too much emphasis on dramatic impetus and production today in order to justify bad directors novelty ideas. The music and singing is what matters.
@@peteradaniel I think it would be wrong to ignore the direction opera and it's librettos went over the last 300 years - from "who cares" to the desire of composers to tell authentic and believable stories. Which for sure is the essence of art in the 19th century which placed more and more emphasis on the expression of individuality (and invented en passant the absurd idea that you marry someone for romantic instead of economical reasons). As it turns out: to this day people love the idea of being seen as individuals, as not interchangeable. You can like it or hate it but in my opinion it is inevitable that opera fans want to see productions which have their own individuality/authrenticity and are not regurgitating our parents' or grandparents' aesthetics or preferences. Do I agree that this sometimes leads to absurd results? Of course! But there will never be a 100% success rate in any other art (or business) either. It's normal to fail from time to time...
Opera is theatre. Drama was always a part of it. And quite frankly - you can have a wonderful libretto with a ridiculous plot. I've seen it done many times.
You have to love an incomprehensible opera in which baby-burning is the climactic event that happens…before the opera ever starts.
😂😂😂 - thank you - you made my day!
That scene with the knife and the shower curtain-I couldn’t help but think of Pyscho. All I wanted was for him to slash that plastic.
I like the way you think...😄
Oh dear, here we go again. The majority of Operas have silly and/or crazy plots. lol Opera is not about the "plot" but themes and ideas, not to mention the music obviously. It is a melodrama. Il Trovatore has everything; love, hate, revenge, regret. Lot's of tension and passion galore. And some of the most beautiful and majestic music there is in an opera. Furthermore, the great thing about Il trovatore is that its wonderful music isn't just for the tenor and/or soprano, but for everybody involved; Tenor, Soprano, Baritone, Mezzo, Bass, Chorus and Orchestra. Just yesterday I re-listen to Price, Corelli, Bastianini, Simionato recording with Karajan, during Salzburger Festspiele in 1962. My god! I was on the edge the whole time and almost hold my breath during the whole time, only to release and cry by the end of it. Absolute perfection. If an Opera doesn't stir those kind of feelings in you, but instead you're too busy to solve the "plot", then probably it isn't a genre for you.
Il Trovatore doesn't need "saving" (not that the likes of Kaufmanns' and Netrebkos' could save anything with their awful singing). It has been there before us and will still be loved and cherished long after, simply because it is fantastic music. VIVA VERDI!
Thank you for your comment! Good for you that you enjoy operas in your own way - you do you! But in my opinion the world has moved on from a time where opera will have enough fans or audiences no matter what as long as the singers sing beautifully. You can like it or not - it doesn't change the fact that the majority of the present and the future generation have different expectations of what makes a performance great and worth seeing it live in a theater. Since opera and theater are living and breathing art forms change and development aren't not just not bad but quintessential. The best example for this is Verdi himself who developed his art from, let's say, I due Foscari to Don Carlo, Otello and Falstaff - away from composing his sensational music to whatever libretto he was offered to literature focused operas.
Things are not as black and white as you claim them to be. You can love opera simultaneously caring for the music AND the plot...
And finally: "Oh dear, here we go again."? Your quote fits perfectly to your bashing of Netrebko and Kaufmann. You don't like them? Alright, don't like them, that's fine. Are they my favorite singers? No. But to say that they are awful singers ist just silly. Is the 1962 recording you mentioned great? Yes, it is. No need though to trash everything which doesn't sound like 1962...
I like strong opinions and I appreciate your comment very much. And I am happy to hear and discuss opinions which are far from my own. Live and let live, I guess...
What a delightful surprise! Thank you for sharing the Bayerische production. I posted the video with English subtitles because I found the singing and acting to be of excellent quality, although I admit the production itself was at times difficult to understand, and at worst, downright dreadful. (The most shocking moment for me was the appearance of the two huge dolls in Act 3, Scene 1) 😱. However, despite the implausibility of the story, I must say the libretto itself is rather well crafted. It features a tightly woven plot, some beautifully poetic lyrics, vivid imagery, and avoids the common pitfall of repetitive language due to limited vocabulary. Conversely, there are some librettos where, despite the relatable story, the writing is subpar (e.g., Cavalleria rusticana). In any case, I thoroughly enjoyed your post and found myself laughing quite a bit.
Thank you for your comment and your kind words! And especially thanks for adding the English subtitles 🙏 Evidently, no surprise there, I committed the sin of exaggerating in order to lure the poor viewers into my video 😄 As a matter of fact I love Trovatore and any opera where the baritone calls the tenor "temerario!" is an automatic winner in my book... ✌
What a refreshing take on the various aspects of this opera! I agree with you that no. 3 is the one I'd also like to watch live. In the recording studio it's hard to beat Milnes and Pavarotti but as a stage production, they might as well have put cardboard figures on stage, played the recording and sent the orchestra and singers home.
And just think how much opera houses could save if they would use the cardboards 😳😄
At the beginning of the movie "Educating Rita," she gets an exam essay question about how to solve the staging difficulties of Peer Gynt (I think). Her full answer: Do it on the radio.
Hello! The libretto of Il Trovatore is based on a play by Antonio García Gutiérrez, premiered in 1836. Several modifications are introduced in the libretto that make the plot more incredible than the play itself. Even so, I personally love this opera because it is the epitome of romantic delirium. Another thing is that the set design does not help to understand the work and makes it even more absurd, for example that in the Bayerische Staatsoper production Leonora is blind or in the Staatsoper Berlin production, the gypsy camp scene that seems taken from the Goya's Caprichos or Disparates. Fortunately on TH-cam we can see other productions in which the script is not distorted and, more importantly, well sung. As for operatic plots in general, we have some pretty crazy ones and a lot of detestable characters, but music can do it all. Thanks for your videos.
Thank you for your comment! I have to agree that opera plots have the tendency to be a little, let's say, underwhelming when it comes to logic or modern storytelling. But since the underlying eternal truth about human emotions can be felt in all of the great works we love so much it is the responsibility of theaters to present them in a way even an audience with less developed passion for opera see that and fall for them 🙂
I do agree with you. Why to critizise Il Trovatore with so many absurd plots around. Opera is not real world in general.
I particularly hate Luisa Miller's finale, our hero turns out to be a petty homicide 🥴
@@kapellmeisterr indeed. And what about Giovanna D'Arco? The father delivers the daugther to the enemies. Absurds are common sense in opera.
@@kapellmeisterr 😂
It is indeed VERY difficult to find a perfect work that contains everything. Verdi unfortunately was imo the biggest victim of this. Probably due to his long career and he was almost the monopoly that time, he had to yield to some limitations.
I absolutely agree that there isn’t much on stage drama, thus making all the music almost purely self-expressive, which could work well if the music is sweet and dramatic enough. But in my opinion, writing sweet melodies isn’t really Verdi’s strongest thing (not everyone is Bellini after all). That’s why I also had a time where I had to get myself used to Trovatore.
That’s why I believe while singing works like this, we can only do what Caruso said. You need to find the 4 best singers in the world to sing their hearts out and milk all music possible. Otherwise we got Netrebko, watching her sing has no difference from not watching her sing at all. This is not what opera is about. As Callas said, people go to the theatre to experience something, the singers thus must create “something” for the audience.
Thank you for your comments, I appreciate it very much. So interesting that you, as many others, have no love left for Netrebko (and the same goes for Kaufmann...). Probably there have been better sopranos at some time or another but is she really that bad? I think she was a very important artist in her prime, singing really well and performing with great intensity and authenticity. winning new audiences for opera. I am just talking about this because I am a bit disturbed about how harsh some comments judge some singers 🤷♂
@@peterpawlik2495 Netrebko’s Violetta (production with Kaufmann and Hvorostovsky at Royal Opera House) was memorable: she sang beautifully and her acting was incredible. there was no question throughout that the character was very sick (i.e., didn’t have to wait for a mandatory clearing of the throat; she wheezed repeatedly🤠) I only wish it would have been filmed. And Kaufmann has taken my breath away in Carmen, Tosca, or La Traviata with Angela Gheorghiu, etc)
I also liked the final production with Kaufmann the best tho I don’t hunt for this opera when I want to listen to music. I watched a version with Hvorostovsky and Jose Cura: great singing as expected, and stars were easy on the eye. Dima dressed in beautiful blue uniform. Fight scene was much better and Cura seemed into. it. Well acted and more classic opera, in my opinion
But ……what an unbelievable story?!
I am sure Hvorostovsky and Cura were a very dynamic and convincing duo. Cura was a great stage personality when he was in his prime...
@@peterpawlik2495 There was even sword fighting-no lame daggers. It’s on TH-cam-fun.
Rare win for the BSO. When it comes to staging. Seen quite a few of them now and aside from the excellent wnd moving „war and peace“ they usually range from „cool. But why?“ (Lucia/Idomeneo) to „what in the world were you thinking? Who thought this was a good idea?!“ (Macbeth)
Do i sense a tiny, tiny bias for the Bayerische Staatsoper? 🙄😄 But yeah, that's the BSO in a nutshell. But I like that. Sometimes it's a complete embarrassment , sometimes fantastic, but never dull. And Berlin has, as Vienna does, the advantage of having one or two additional opera houses which function as a regulatory: audiences will always find a production which is more suited to their tastes...
@@peterpawlik2495 well it is my operatic home base and I love it dearly.🥹🤗
P.S. don‘t sleep on the Gärtnerplatztheater. Yes the Parkettseats are literal torture devices, but their Werther was one ox the most intense productions of a piece I have ever seen. (Sophie Rennert as Charlotte was a particular highlight of my Opera going life.
Kaufmann and Netrebko saving Il trovatore? Good gracious. There are some spectacular singers out there today, not sure why you keep focusing on the bad ones.
I agree that there are spectacular singers out there besides Netrebko and Kaufmann. But to say that Netrebko and Kaufmann are not great singers (even if they are not to your taste)gets a bit boring in my opinion. I am not a Netrebko or Kaufmann fanatic, far from it, but I really, really can't listen to this kind of b/w and overly harsh judgement anymore. Some like them, some don't. Where does this need for condemnation come from? 🤷♂
@@peterpawlik2495I agree. Many people think they are listening to Kaufmann and Netrebko when they were 30, and just beginning their international careers. They are in their 50s now, with great successes to remember. Kaufmann is still singing well, albeit with more caution; Netrebko, it can be argued, has sung too many heavy roles to be completely successful nowadays.
@@wotan10950 Thank you for your thoughtful and balanced input 🙏
"ok Leonora, now we wait him release Manrico and before the marriage you.."
*drinks the poison immediately *
😂
I think Norma wins the stupid libretto prize. Who knew virgin priestesses got such long sabbaticals, no questions asked? And Clothilde, what's with the diaper bag? But I digress. Agreed, 3rd production is the watchable one, tho I agree the locomotive is inexplicable. I thought of the wheels/gears on both the scrim and set as echoing how the characters are caught, both by the situation and their emotions. Yes, that might apply more appropriately to Forza, but still works here, IMHO. The set on #2 was ridiculous; looked like a prison courtyard. Di Luna's castle would be better fashioned, and why would the gypsies be popping into the same place? You'd think Deutsche Oper could afford better, and smarter.
Thank you for comment! Well, in the end it doesn't matter who won the contest of "worst libretto". It's just a fun exercise thinking and talking about it...Your thoughts about the meaning of the wheels in München might be right but I guess we will never know. And that's fine with me. And it's funny: "You'd think Deutsche Oper could afford better, and smarter."? That's verbatim what I thought too when seeing it for the first time
Norma is my nr.one too. La clemenza di Tito is the second.
Beverly Sills once said that she found the Norma libretto laughable. For example, her declaration, “Norma never lies!” Well, she’s been lying throughout the entire opera.
@@wotan10950 Beverly Sills was not wrong there 😂
Now they overact their presence on stage so it distracts the public from their singing abilities. I still prefer a good opera singer than a good actor on stage. If one can have both, that's superb, otherwise I keep the first one and let the second one go.
Thank you for your comment! Yeah, it's a very thin line of what is willing to accept...🤷♂️🙂
I had such a great laugh at this your latest video. It is fantastic!
At last an opera I know something about, having seen it twice at the ROH, each time with a brilliant cast. But first, my opinion on these three.
Pavarotti one, boring. Domingo as the count, nonsensical. And the last, ah the last. Three voices which are absolutely wonderful, in a production which was totally silly! So much nakedness, puppetry and bizarre scenery. It was almost as if the director had tried to cram every gimmick in the book to push the story and make it more interesting. It didn't really work in my opinion. I felt so sorry for the singers having to put up with such piffle!
In 1989, I saw an outstanding production - a gala production with royalty present - at the ROH, Covent Garden. It had Domingo (as Manrico) Willand White and Rosalind Plowright. It was an absolutely, jaw-droppingly brilliant, and more traditional interpretation. I will never forget it.
The second one I have seen is the one with Dmitri Hvorostovsky as the Count, Jose Cura as Manrico and Veronica Villarroel as Leonora, again at the ROH. Now, if I could have swapped Cura for Kaufmann it would have been very near to perfection - even if the Count was so drop-dead gorgeous Leonora must have wanted her brain feeling not to run off with him immediately! I suppose you could say that, for me, staring moonstruck at Dmitri, this production didn't really work as the Count was far too attractive in both sound and appearance to be the nasty, controlling, murdering character he was meant to be. It's probably a good job Jonas Kaufmann wasn't in it as I'd have melted in my seat. But what a dream team that would have been.😅
So I'd have to say that the 1989 Domingo production is the best I've ever seen.
very happy to see that my attempt of being funny worked for you 😄🙏 If I may quote you: "I felt so sorry for the singers having to put up with such piffle!" That's one more thing I admire about the professionalism of great opera singers: that they commit to a production how silly it might be. I am sure it's not easy to go on stage after you have seen yourself in the mirror of your dressing room wearing a silly costume and wig (like in Berlin)... So: much respect for them! There are few incidences where singers simply reject a director's or costume designer's ideas and walk away. I don't know if it's true but I heard about a Rigoletto production (in Germany 🙄) which had a Planet of the Apes theme, including the costumes and the wigs and makeup. And Ramon Vargas, who was supposed to sing the conte, quit and left the production on the first day of rehearsal. If that's true I wouldn't blame him 😄
About the ROH production: Well, lucky you to have been in the presence of the Royal Family 👍 And I am glad you mentioned Rosalind Plowright. I only know her from the Trovatore recording under Giulini but I loved her in that recording 😊
@@peterpawlik2495 The Planet of the Apes? For goodness sakes. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Oh I would have paid good money to see that, even if I wouldn't have been able to stop laughing. Just another director who enjoys a bit of monkeying around I guess. Lol
@@peterpawlik2495 I did not get anywhere near Lady Di or Prince Charles (at that time.) I was sat in the cheap seats up in the "gods." All the singers looked like ants. They sounded fantastic though. I remember waiting for hours at the stage door for Placido Domingo to come out. I managed to get a few autographs but not his. He'd exited via the front entrance in the company of the royals to attend a dinner party apparently!
@@operaFan-tn8ng That's bad luck you missed Domingo leaving the opera house. Normally he was more than happy to give autograph's.
Lots of great action 🤺 Dima and Jose!
The sets for the first two seemed sterile, in fact the first one was almost "Il Trovatore in Concert". I certainly couldn't say that about the third one but I didn't like the shower curtain either! Despite the fact that it contains one of my favourite numbers (Miserere) which was also one of the first pieces of opera that I ever listened to, Il Trovatore is not one of my favourites. This is because I find the story preposterous and nasty, so I think we may agree about it.
Thank you for your comment! I guess Il Trovatore is one of those pieces where the listeners react in a mostly binary way: they love it or they don't. Or it's a love-hate-relationship as in my case 😄
That’s okay. If the soprano, tenor, mezzo, and baritone can sing this opera beautifully, they can sing anything. Verdi demands the very best singing in Trovatore. And who cares about the story! Nowadays, new operas are produced all the time with subjects ripped from the headlines. And they are never heard from again. People always return to Trovatore because of the incredible music.
Thank you for your comment! Yes, people will always love Trovatore - and rightfully so! But it's still a silly libretto 🤷♂😄 But as many commentators have pointed out: Trovatore is not alone there...
I was laughing really sweetly. 😂And I learned something again.🙂 My only fear is, if I continue to be your student (which is certain), how will I experience operas in the future?🤔
You are very kind and I am glad you enjoyed this little video! 🙏
I have to agree with you. Could you analyse a production Corelli - Bastianini? It would be interesting. Thanks.
Thank you for your comment - I appreciate it very much! I will for sure check out the mentioned production since it has those two exceptional singers in it. But to be honest I can't promise that I will make a video about it since my focus is more on present productions. 🙂
With a knitting needle my mother was able to perform miracles ....🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I liked Leonora being blind, but the confusion is because in the opera they are brothers, and they are supposed to look alike. They could put masks on the actors. In this case, Leonora is blind but not stupid, and she chose Kaufman as her boyfriend. Gypsies like to travel, so I guess that's why they put a locomotive. The wheels between scenes look like the ones that appeared on television between shows in the 50s. My guesses.
Thank you for trying to make sense of the Berlin production. True that Manrico and Luna should have some resemblance since they are brothers. And confusing one for the other is forgivable especially when it happens in the dark. It's for sure more realistic than the plot of Cosi fan tutte where the men just put on some turban and the women don't recognize them anymore at all 😄
@@peterpawlik2495 It's like super man, that just takes off the glasses. Women are blind when in love (men are also),
@@romalisan1 true that! 😄
Не буду сравнивать Leonora, их много очень хороших и прекрасных. То же касается и Azucena. А вот лучшие на мой взгляд Manrico это Aureliano Pertile, MDM, Corelli and Franco Bonisoli. Любимые Conte di Luna - Apollo Granforte, Ettore Bastianini, Giangiacomo Guelfi. Дирижеров сейчас тоже не буду сравнивать, никакого места не хватит😁 И как жаль, что в этом Вашем видео не включены субтитры. Я не так хорошо знаю английский язык, чтобы понять всё😕Глубоко уважаю Вас🥰
Thank you for your comment! I think your list of extraordinary singers for each role is quite convincing. I am not such an an expert as you when it comes to singers before 1980 but some of those names you mentioned are legends. If I may add one name to your list: I think Zancanaro was a phantastic Luna as well but he seems to be not as popular in the opera community...? 🤷♂
About English subtitles: I will look into it and try to make it happen. I am sure it's not that complicated, I just have to do some research on it...
Again thank you. Your thoughts are very appreciated!
I have to disagree with the comment section. Prima la parole e poi la musica! Gluck and Salieri have good plots
Thank you for your comment and for being an advocate for "la parole". Often we don't take into consideration enough that it is the words which inspire the composers to write their music...
And some years after Verdi made the same mistake with La Forza del Destino, another idiotic, convoluted and senseless plot with great music.
I came to Trovatore early in my opera fandom, so I fell in love with it without any qualms about its dramatic klutziness. Forza was later for me, and it never got through to me despite some great music because I couldn’t get past its book.
Don't get me started on La Forza 😂
After seeing 300+ live opera performances on the stage, I only saw Forza for the very first time last month. I told my adult children, “it shouldn’t be called ‘The Force of Destiny,’ it should be called ‘The Force of Ridiculous Coincidences!’” Yes, the music is fantastic, but the story is beyond redemption.
@@wotan10950 In hindsight: A video about Forza's libretto would have made more sense, I have to admit...
@@wotan10950 It's like the strange uncle at the thanksgiving dinner: we might find his political views not agreeable but he still is family so we love him 😂
Il Trovatore is not the worst opera ever made. Not even close.
I LOVE Trovatore. And it is for sure far from being the worst opera. I just enjoyed talking about the libretto and seeing what the viewers opinion about it would be 🙂
Il Trovatore being a bad opera is a personal opinion. There are many operas with bad stories, librettos. But who cares? I certainly don’t. Most of us are there for the great music and beautiful singing.
Thank you for your comment! You are right: who cares? It's still fun talking about different aspects or perspectives and starting a conversation. And no doubt: Trovatore is despite it's libretto a masterpiece 🙂
Too bad you cannot show the CORELLI - BASTIANINI production. It is unique and magnificent. We would appreciate it.
Do you have a link for that?
@@peterpawlik2495 I am not very experienced with computers. I just find a lot of Il Trovatore on ytub. There are lots of Corelli-Bastianini post. Sorry, that's all I can suggest. If you have a better solution, I would appreciated it. Thanks.
Yes, the plot of Il Trovatore is idiotic, but is it really that much worse than most of the rest of the repertoire? People seem to apply a standard of logic to il trovatore that they do not extend to other works. I am bothered much more by the ending of Ernani than I am by anything in Il Trovatore. Several comments mention the silliness of Norma, which surely is just as bad as Il trovatore. And everybody gives Wagner a pass because of his focus on myth and legend, but almost nothing in his librettos make any sense by the same criteria.
by the way, I interpret Leonora's confusion of Di Luna for Manrico in act 1 as foreshadowing -- of course they are brothers, so they look similar in the dark.
Thank you for your comment - I really liked it! And you are right: Trovatore is not the worst example of, let's say: "interesting" libretti. Many of the baroque operas for example have stories much more absurd.
In Germany there is this saying: "Was sich liebt, das neckt sich". There is no good way to translate that elegantly into English but the meaning of it is that you like to tease someone/something you love. And that was the spirit I was in when I took the video 🙂
I saw Trovatore years ago. I was bored stiff. The only part I liked was the Anvil Chorus. The only opera disappointment in my life.
Sorry to hear about your disappointing experience with Trovatore. If the only part you liked was the Anvil Chorus then I can only assume that the singers weren't the greatest because if this opera is sung well it WILL catch you, in my opinion. Better luck next time 🤞🙂
Thanks for this hilarious video. I had a good laugh and greatly enjoyed it. Unfortunately, Il Trovatore has always been regarded as the epitome of operatic silliness. The Marx brothers used is as the opera being performed in their movie comedy "Night at the Opera" and Gilbert and Sullivan pilloried it in "The Pirates of Penzance." In my opinion, there is no way anyone can make this opera work dramatically much as no one can make Ponchielli's La Gioconda work dramatically.
However, It is not correct to say that all operas or all Verdi operas are like this as some have commented here. Verdi's Traviata, Rigoletto and Falstaff, for example, work wonderfully as musical dramas because the underlying stories are so good and the characters remain convincing as human beings long after the opera were composed.
I agree that the third production is the best, but it too is bad. The blonde bewigged Netrebo in the second production looks like a crazed witch from Verdi's Macbeth. The lumpish and static Pavarotti in the Met production is beyond absurd. The scrim in the third is beyond cheap, as you point out, and the industrial symbolism and locomotive are beyond human comprehension.
My thinking is that Il Trovatore is beyond salvaging as a viable stage production despite its magnificant score. However, who cannot but be stirred by hearing Strida la Vampa or the Miserere or the Anvil chorus? Perhaps the answer is a concert performance for future productions.
Thank you for your comment! And please stay strong: there will be a great production of Trovatore in the near future, I really believe that. Or maybe we just haven't seen this magical production but it is there in the Mariana Trench of the internet waiting for us to discover it?
Thank you for writing and: Take care!
A young Jonas Kaufman without curly hair.
not curly but for sure burly 🙂
Right on! I have to say that having read El Trovador in the original Spanish , the play is not without a certain lunatic charm and the language is absolutely beautiful. The same could be said about Don Alvaro o la Fuerza del Sino.
@@edgarfranceschi8338 Lunatic charme? 😄 I like that! A bit strangeness or craziness is always much welcomed 😊
Nothing interesting about German regie concepts of opera, just the blown up egos of modern stage directors. Take a modern play and bring as many dishwashers, locomotives and surgical beds on stage as you want. Leave Il Trovatore and the other classical operas alone! We love them with all their absurdity and fairy tale narratives.
Is there any opera that isn't ridunkulous😄? Who even watches or listens to opera for the plot or character development or the insight into the human condition or any other profundity the arts lovers get from pretentious cinema & such? Isn't that the very reason why the term "OPERATIC" was coined to begin with & for which there is practically no other equivalent? 😂🤪 How are Don Giovanni & Rigoletto as well as the overused "women disguised as men" device in opera not any less hilarious? Are we to believe people during those days couldn't tell that it's just a woman wearing a costume when they had not even a tiny fraction of the technology & tools we now have at our disposal? Lol!
I listen (primarliy, even when I watch) to opera just for the music & singing. The sets, costumes, subpar acting lol, stories? Sure, they can be great, ludicrous or often both, too. But they don't really matter ultimately. Those are what the plays are for. Opera to me is all about just THE SINGERS, who could just be, like in recitals, standing still on stage in beautiful, semi-formal but modern clothing for all I care. The end.
Thank you for your comment and for your so vividly expressed thoughts - I like it even if I don't agree 👍
I would suggest "melodramatic" as an equivalent to "operatic"?
Let me just say one thing about the "woman disguised as a man". You are right: nobody was fooled by that. But to fool the audience was never the intention to begin with in my opinion. If you take for example Cherubino: To write this role for a mezzo-soprano was Mozart's way to show the heightened sensitivity of a teenager, his vulnerability and the confusion of an adolescent who still has to find his identity...
Anyway, that's it. I very much appreciate that you shared your thoughts with us 🙏
@@peterpawlik2495
Nah, "melodrama" like on TV soap opera is just a little "too extra" but is confined to just serious/dramatic fiction, though still within the bounds of reality and doesn't include the utterly ridiculous, hilarious or lugubrious (so ludicrously sad that it's hilarious). There's no other term than "operatic" for the latter that I could think of.
I was talking about the realism of operatic plots in general when I cited the disguises. It's just one of the overly used devices that to me meant they weren't to be taken THAT seriously at all. I just don't think people 2 to 4 centuries ago were that different or more gullible than us today. They considered opera to be "operatic" also. Lol
@@Dr__Feelgood Alright, you are the native speaker so I won't try to win this battle 😄 But still: come on! There so many sensational smart libretti from Don Giovanni over L'elisir d'amore to Falstaff - to say that all libretti are stupid? You are too smart to believe that. I think you just enjoy provoking me 😄
@@peterpawlik2495 Mozart did not write it for a mezzo-soprano. Dorotea Bussani was a soprano. It became a mezzo-soprano role today due to its limited range. Travesti roles have existed in opera for a long time and have socio-political reasons of the time. I suggest reading "Voicing Gender: Castrati, Travesti, and the Second Woman in Early-Nineteenth-Century Italian Opera".
@@peterpawlik2495 Falstaff is a bit silly. However I would 100% agree there are great libretti out there. And great libretti WITH travesti roles. Il crociato in Egitto by Meyerbeer is spectacular. As is Anna Bolena by Donizetti and Rosmonda d'Inghilterra.
Opera is MUSIC. Who cares if the libreto is silly or not?
Hard no! It must have meaning, or at least the intent of meaning, to be true opera, a term which is understood to mean music drama.
If the libretto is meaningless we might as well skip the staging altogether and have the singers sing Wikipedia articles or statistical tables.
Thank you for your comment! But I have to side with @diecheneydie: Opera is more than music. In my opinion it should be the perfect combination of theater and music. If it were just about the music it would be enough to listen to CDs (for the younger people: Thats how we consumed music before Spotify...). I am aware that this beforementioned synthesis of music and theater is not always possible but I still think we should always try to make an effort in order to keep opera alive and relevant for future generations. And that includes, I think, to be curious to find new perspectives those great pieces can be looked at...🤷♂
But I love Azucena stridi la vampa
Thank you for your comment! Yes, Azucena and 99% of the music in Trovatore is just overwhelmingly fantastic 🙏
Warum plötzlich in Englisch? Abo beenden
Who cares about the libretto? I hate the way we apply theatrical straight drama to opera. Opera and drama aren’t the same. Opera is much more closer to ballet. Think Giselle, Le Corsaire, Swan Lake. They all have ridiculous plots.
Thank you for your comment!
Who cares about the libretto? Well, I would say for example Gluck who worked with Calzabigi on Orfeo, Alceste and Paride ed Elena or Verdi who, as he progressed in age as well in artistic virtuosity, started to work with Arrigo Boito in order to find a better synthesis between music and words/plots. Or Richard Strauss? Or this guy - what's his name? - ah yes: Mozart, who worked with da Ponte. Or Wagner?
I would say that opera and drama have at least the same "mission statement". They might not be identical twins but very close relatives nonetheless....
@@peterpawlik2495 the mission statement for opera, especially in the Bel Canto era is to show off the voice and even within music drama era, looking especially at Wagner, the dramatic impetus from the text is so negligible and dramatically hollow, the libretto would be deemed useless without the music. You mention Da Ponte, Boito and the most famous librettists. They only wrote a small proportion of the works of these composers. Boito worked on 3 Verdi operas out of 26 altogether including revisions. If you look at Felice Romani, Metastasio, Gaetano Rossi et al. Their general approach is based on feelings needed to be expressed by the principal actors and atmosphere as opposed to straight, logical drama. This is much more in tune with ballet than with straight drama and Verdi was happy to sacrifice logical realism, for the sake of this. This is why Il Trovatore is a prime example of bel canto. Each scene, aria, duet, ensemble is there to show a dramatic emotion, within a loose overall plot.
@@peterpawlik2495 think opera and drama can be similar when looking at certain librettists, but Boito and Daponte contributed very little to even Mozart’s and Verdi’s output, not to mention opera in general. Boito wrote 4 original libretti still in rep today and Da Ponte wrote three. Look at Metastasio, Rossi, Felice Romani for a better look at drama in opera and it’s much closer to the dramatic language of ballet, than straight drama. I also think there’s far too much emphasis on dramatic impetus and production today in order to justify bad directors novelty ideas. The music and singing is what matters.
@@peteradaniel I think it would be wrong to ignore the direction opera and it's librettos went over the last 300 years - from "who cares" to the desire of composers to tell authentic and believable stories. Which for sure is the essence of art in the 19th century which placed more and more emphasis on the expression of individuality (and invented en passant the absurd idea that you marry someone for romantic instead of economical reasons). As it turns out: to this day people love the idea of being seen as individuals, as not interchangeable. You can like it or hate it but in my opinion it is inevitable that opera fans want to see productions which have their own individuality/authrenticity and are not regurgitating our parents' or grandparents' aesthetics or preferences. Do I agree that this sometimes leads to absurd results? Of course! But there will never be a 100% success rate in any other art (or business) either. It's normal to fail from time to time...
Opera is theatre. Drama was always a part of it. And quite frankly - you can have a wonderful libretto with a ridiculous plot. I've seen it done many times.