Every time you talk about your father it gets me right in the feels. I was raised by my grandfather and was blessed in having him with me right up to my mid thirties (I was 34 when he died and now I'm 39). He was very independent and could live on his own being 87, but he had multiple minor heart attacks in the past, so he had a weak circulatory system. Two weeks before defending my dissertation for my PhD he had a big heart attack. As his only caretaker I was always there at the hospital, in his medical appointments etc, but this was a very difficult time because he wanted me to finish my PhD and wanted to be there for me but his body was too weak. The sadness of knowing his time was coming up, that he felt guilty for not being able to physically see me defend, the stress of having to split my time between getting ready for the dissertation and him (which also made me feel guilty) was incredibly overwhelming. Also, I understand you deeply in feeling guilty about feeling that you weren't doing enough for him, I felt exactly the same even though I knew that I was doing as much as I could. To conclude with my story, a month later after finishing my PhD he passed away, and so for me the symbolism took place with my degree...I made him proud one last time 🥹.
Always love these "to writers" videos. As someone who's working on my first novel, all these tips help in keeping me mindful of the general consensus of readers and what things are generally seen as "good" and "bad". Not sacrificing my voice and style, I will surely keep these ideas in mind as I edit. Thanks as always, Elliot! I've been reading a bit myself and REALLY love the way John Gwynne describes people and settings (specifically in the Bloodsworn Saga). He hits all the right notes, weaving it through the story so seamlessly. He's definitely one of my biggest inspirations when it comes to authors at the moment.
Some of my favorite setting descriptions come from the Redwall series by Brian Jacques. He originally wrote the series for the children at a local school for the blind. He had to be very descriptive about everything, but in a way that didn’t overload you. I don’t care if the books were meant for children, I still read them to this day.
@@jon85753 Yeah, it was something we talked a lot about for the Accelerated Reading (AR) reading program when I was in elementary school, but some of those book covers specifically say for ages 6-9. I always loved them, they are great adventure books.
Ah thanks for taking the time to read my comment Elle! I’m glad most people are on the same page of preferences, it makes the well crafted works shine, and signals to publishers to let people WRITE again with voice and chances. Also I love how you can take something as hard as your experience with caring for your dad and turn it into something to draw on for both writing and this discussion. Your point was 100% true! Very excited for my copy of Peace and Turmoil to come in. Best of luck to any writers watching this. These are great tips, and don’t be afraid to stick to your voice! Whatever form of feedback team you have and discussions like this will help get to you a place to share a work you’re proud of 🥰
I'm so glad that you mentioned that telling is also important. Maybe it's a coincidence, but in the debuts I've been reading recently the writers seem to be so afraid of telling that we end up with very long, convoluted and sometimes nonsensical passages that only confuse the reader rather than immerse them. Sometimes telling is the better option! Many respected writers 'info dump', but it doesn't feel jarring or heavy handed because the content, timing and length have been chosen with care. I'm interested to hear your thoughts (and anyone else's!) on a potentially controversial question: How much of the dislike for 'overtelling' do you think is down to the negative sentiment being ingrained into our subconscious? That is to say, even if we read a 'telling' passage that is appropriate and effective for what the writer wants to achieve, do we have a knee-jerk negative reaction to any and all telling simply because we've been told over and over again that 'tell = bad, show = good'? On a separate note, since you enjoy anime, I wanted to recommend Link Click. It's actually a donghua rather than an anime, but I'm sure you'll enjoy it :)
Tell your long-winded friend he should write novels. I would read them. In the way he described the marriage between the language the author uses with the setting made me want to write again. Thank you.
Funny enough, I prefer more to-the-point, precise prose, with less metaphors and fluff and more context-relevant descriptions. But that's the magic of writing, there are so many ways to write and enjoy writing😬
As a writer, I greatly appreciate hearing what readers like and dislike about -in this case settings-. As a reader, there were two books that came to mind that are not fantasy but historical fiction the first book is Cracking India by Bapsi Sidhwa. Sidhwa does a beautiful job of relaying urgency and fear by using things like radio announcement and other non-character elements. The second book is Mornings in Janin by Susan Abulhawa, which follows a woman who was a child retuning to Palastine after she'd lived through the refugees from Germany taking over. I loved how in one devastating chapter, she showed described a building crumbling and then in a scene shortly after the father makes a "pull my finger" joke. Something that you sort of touched on with you story about your father and the tree, which broke my heart and I relate to...when my mother passed away it was April 1st after it had snowed a week or two before. It was the warmest day we'd had in a long time. I got the call from the nursing home my mom was staying in and was asked if i thought she should go to the hospital or keep there and comfortable. It was ungodly sunny and beautiful out that day. It was a perfect day and my mom slowly passed away while the birds sang their happy songs and the sky was blue and it was warm. That's a real life example from my own experience to show how you can use setting that is juxtaposed to what a character is going through. Done right and it can make you feel more than just the sadness of the moment.
Dear Michael, you have managed to summarise why I have such a problem with "When the Moon Hatched", when I had no idea exactly WHAT I struggled with so much in that book. The consistency in style/voice and world is also incredibly important to me, and in that case, I found them at odds with one another, and that's why for me where people say the world building is so good whilst I'm just here like.. no.. not to me!
As a writer I reallllly enjoy this video style!! I think it's super helpful to hear thoughts like these from a variety of readers and see how the commenters react as well! Tips like avoiding infodumping and subtle worldbuilding are really solid tips!!
Another aspect about magic being present in a world/settings, in addition to it being feared or revered, is whether or not it is common place or rare. Is it common place and feared, is it rare and revered, is it rare and feared, etc. not to mention different levels/capabilities/types of magic that could exist. Such a fun topic 😁
Thanks again for this. Absolutely one of the most useful series on TH-cam and perhaps the internet as a whole. Wish I could thumbs it up more than just once.
Elle, I can’t believe you read my whole long long long comment! On camera! You are too kind and clearly have a strong stomach. I totally agree about juxtapositions in style and setting! What you say about Gideon is equally true about that “lit bro” book everyone’s scared of, Gravity’s Rainbow, where passages of grand eloquence and beauty are stuck alongside very puerile jokes and silly songs and absurdities. These books manage to make that make sense too. And you are also totally right about the need to avoid breaking away from fantasy worlds to comment on this one too overtly, and about when the characters’ voice collapses into the author’s. That takes me out of the story too. Anyway, thank you so much for humoring me and your thoughtful, characteristically shrewd response. By the way, you read that insanely long comment beautifully. If I tried to read my own writing on camera, I doubt I’d pull it off half so well. Thank you, as always, for you. I love your channel for very good reason! Also, as other commenters said, it am always touched when you talk about your dad. I know from your videos and the dedication of your novel (which I love, by the way) that both your parents were enormously supportive and good people, and your love for them comes across. You’re young to have suffered such a loss. Thank you for sharing that stuff in such a deeply human way. It hit me right where I live.
writer here. my favourite discovery (i'm sure i didn't invent this, but i didn't read it anywhere and thought of it independently) is to write a list (a lengthy list) in your notes of things your characters find beautiful and then draw on that when writing descriptions from their perspectives. as a basic example: some characters will be looking at the architecture in a city others will be looking more at the foliage and fauna. the architect character might describe people with terms like "stature" and compare their hair colour to bricks or concrete whereas a more nature-focused character would notice smells and perhaps how someone's lips might look like rose petals. idk. it's a fun exercise for your journal if nothing else!
You bringing up opening action scenes brought me back to when I first read Way of Kings and almost DNFed it because I had zero idea what was happening.
The descriptive paragraph person put me in mind of Thomas Hardy and L M Montgomery. It depends on the author. I read historical fiction as well and the descriptions do matter. In fantasy, I need a little description of the layout and my brain can fill in the blanks.
The Henna Artist and The Perfumist of Paris by Alka Joshi were great - I felt like I could see the colors and smell the perfumes. Also, The Women by Kristin Hannah - I felt like I was in the war zone with the characters. These were some books that I felt the setting was done well. Love this series!
I personally love Fourth Wing (it's the first time I've seen my chronic illness portrayed in fiction). But the dialogue when trying to drop exposition is terrible. The line where Violet mentions her hair turning silver at the tips is so clunky that it feels anything but natural. And her whole thing of reciting facts when she's scared feels counterintuitive rather than helpful. Speaking as someone who can give lots of fun facts and info dumping, I'm not going to do it when I'm trying to focus on doing a physical task and not die.
37:21 WOW I have Aphantasia no mind's eye and I don't "see" any scene from books. It's got to be very annoying if it doesn't work out from what you expect it to be. Also, contraindications from what is written. Bummer 😕
Aw, thank you. That makes me feel better. I felt so sorry for Elle, reading all that aloud! She’s a very generous soul. I’m so glad what I wrote was enjoyable for you!
@@michaelmasiello6752I loved and agreed with everything you said. If you hadn’t said it, then it would have been me 😂🤝 especially about writers showing language the respect it deserves.
Every time you talk about your father it gets me right in the feels. I was raised by my grandfather and was blessed in having him with me right up to my mid thirties (I was 34 when he died and now I'm 39). He was very independent and could live on his own being 87, but he had multiple minor heart attacks in the past, so he had a weak circulatory system. Two weeks before defending my dissertation for my PhD he had a big heart attack. As his only caretaker I was always there at the hospital, in his medical appointments etc, but this was a very difficult time because he wanted me to finish my PhD and wanted to be there for me but his body was too weak. The sadness of knowing his time was coming up, that he felt guilty for not being able to physically see me defend, the stress of having to split my time between getting ready for the dissertation and him (which also made me feel guilty) was incredibly overwhelming. Also, I understand you deeply in feeling guilty about feeling that you weren't doing enough for him, I felt exactly the same even though I knew that I was doing as much as I could. To conclude with my story, a month later after finishing my PhD he passed away, and so for me the symbolism took place with my degree...I made him proud one last time 🥹.
Always love these "to writers" videos. As someone who's working on my first novel, all these tips help in keeping me mindful of the general consensus of readers and what things are generally seen as "good" and "bad". Not sacrificing my voice and style, I will surely keep these ideas in mind as I edit. Thanks as always, Elliot!
I've been reading a bit myself and REALLY love the way John Gwynne describes people and settings (specifically in the Bloodsworn Saga). He hits all the right notes, weaving it through the story so seamlessly. He's definitely one of my biggest inspirations when it comes to authors at the moment.
Some of my favorite setting descriptions come from the Redwall series by Brian Jacques. He originally wrote the series for the children at a local school for the blind. He had to be very descriptive about everything, but in a way that didn’t overload you. I don’t care if the books were meant for children, I still read them to this day.
I'm kind of surprised given both the first and last books tones. That is if it was at an elementary school.
@@jon85753 Yeah, it was something we talked a lot about for the Accelerated Reading (AR) reading program when I was in elementary school, but some of those book covers specifically say for ages 6-9. I always loved them, they are great adventure books.
Ah thanks for taking the time to read my comment Elle! I’m glad most people are on the same page of preferences, it makes the well crafted works shine, and signals to publishers to let people WRITE again with voice and chances.
Also I love how you can take something as hard as your experience with caring for your dad and turn it into something to draw on for both writing and this discussion. Your point was 100% true! Very excited for my copy of Peace and Turmoil to come in.
Best of luck to any writers watching this. These are great tips, and don’t be afraid to stick to your voice! Whatever form of feedback team you have and discussions like this will help get to you a place to share a work you’re proud of 🥰
I'm so glad that you mentioned that telling is also important. Maybe it's a coincidence, but in the debuts I've been reading recently the writers seem to be so afraid of telling that we end up with very long, convoluted and sometimes nonsensical passages that only confuse the reader rather than immerse them. Sometimes telling is the better option! Many respected writers 'info dump', but it doesn't feel jarring or heavy handed because the content, timing and length have been chosen with care.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts (and anyone else's!) on a potentially controversial question: How much of the dislike for 'overtelling' do you think is down to the negative sentiment being ingrained into our subconscious? That is to say, even if we read a 'telling' passage that is appropriate and effective for what the writer wants to achieve, do we have a knee-jerk negative reaction to any and all telling simply because we've been told over and over again that 'tell = bad, show = good'?
On a separate note, since you enjoy anime, I wanted to recommend Link Click. It's actually a donghua rather than an anime, but I'm sure you'll enjoy it :)
Tell your long-winded friend he should write novels. I would read them. In the way he described the marriage between the language the author uses with the setting made me want to write again.
Thank you.
Funny enough, I prefer more to-the-point, precise prose, with less metaphors and fluff and more context-relevant descriptions.
But that's the magic of writing, there are so many ways to write and enjoy writing😬
As a writer, I greatly appreciate hearing what readers like and dislike about -in this case settings-.
As a reader, there were two books that came to mind that are not fantasy but historical fiction the first book is Cracking India by Bapsi Sidhwa. Sidhwa does a beautiful job of relaying urgency and fear by using things like radio announcement and other non-character elements.
The second book is Mornings in Janin by Susan Abulhawa, which follows a woman who was a child retuning to Palastine after she'd lived through the refugees from Germany taking over. I loved how in one devastating chapter, she showed described a building crumbling and then in a scene shortly after the father makes a "pull my finger" joke.
Something that you sort of touched on with you story about your father and the tree, which broke my heart and I relate to...when my mother passed away it was April 1st after it had snowed a week or two before. It was the warmest day we'd had in a long time. I got the call from the nursing home my mom was staying in and was asked if i thought she should go to the hospital or keep there and comfortable. It was ungodly sunny and beautiful out that day. It was a perfect day and my mom slowly passed away while the birds sang their happy songs and the sky was blue and it was warm. That's a real life example from my own experience to show how you can use setting that is juxtaposed to what a character is going through. Done right and it can make you feel more than just the sadness of the moment.
Dear Michael, you have managed to summarise why I have such a problem with "When the Moon Hatched", when I had no idea exactly WHAT I struggled with so much in that book. The consistency in style/voice and world is also incredibly important to me, and in that case, I found them at odds with one another, and that's why for me where people say the world building is so good whilst I'm just here like.. no.. not to me!
As a writer I reallllly enjoy this video style!! I think it's super helpful to hear thoughts like these from a variety of readers and see how the commenters react as well! Tips like avoiding infodumping and subtle worldbuilding are really solid tips!!
Another aspect about magic being present in a world/settings, in addition to it being feared or revered, is whether or not it is common place or rare. Is it common place and feared, is it rare and revered, is it rare and feared, etc. not to mention different levels/capabilities/types of magic that could exist. Such a fun topic 😁
Thanks again for this. Absolutely one of the most useful series on TH-cam and perhaps the internet as a whole. Wish I could thumbs it up more than just once.
Elle, I can’t believe you read my whole long long long comment! On camera! You are too kind and clearly have a strong stomach. I totally agree about juxtapositions in style and setting! What you say about Gideon is equally true about that “lit bro” book everyone’s scared of, Gravity’s Rainbow, where passages of grand eloquence and beauty are stuck alongside very puerile jokes and silly songs and absurdities. These books manage to make that make sense too. And you are also totally right about the need to avoid breaking away from fantasy worlds to comment on this one too overtly, and about when the characters’ voice collapses into the author’s. That takes me out of the story too. Anyway, thank you so much for humoring me and your thoughtful, characteristically shrewd response. By the way, you read that insanely long comment beautifully. If I tried to read my own writing on camera, I doubt I’d pull it off half so well. Thank you, as always, for you. I love your channel for very good reason!
Also, as other commenters said, it am always touched when you talk about your dad. I know from your videos and the dedication of your novel (which I love, by the way) that both your parents were enormously supportive and good people, and your love for them comes across. You’re young to have suffered such a loss. Thank you for sharing that stuff in such a deeply human way. It hit me right where I live.
writer here. my favourite discovery (i'm sure i didn't invent this, but i didn't read it anywhere and thought of it independently) is to write a list (a lengthy list) in your notes of things your characters find beautiful and then draw on that when writing descriptions from their perspectives. as a basic example: some characters will be looking at the architecture in a city others will be looking more at the foliage and fauna. the architect character might describe people with terms like "stature" and compare their hair colour to bricks or concrete whereas a more nature-focused character would notice smells and perhaps how someone's lips might look like rose petals. idk. it's a fun exercise for your journal if nothing else!
You bringing up opening action scenes brought me back to when I first read Way of Kings and almost DNFed it because I had zero idea what was happening.
Recently I found that the Black Sun series did a great job showing the setting. NK Jemisin is always amazing at setting/world building!
idk, I love no context action scenes. It's like betting on a sport you don't watch or understand.
The descriptive paragraph person put me in mind of Thomas Hardy and L M Montgomery. It depends on the author. I read historical fiction as well and the descriptions do matter. In fantasy, I need a little description of the layout and my brain can fill in the blanks.
The Henna Artist and The Perfumist of Paris by Alka Joshi were great - I felt like I could see the colors and smell the perfumes. Also, The Women by Kristin Hannah - I felt like I was in the war zone with the characters. These were some books that I felt the setting was done well. Love this series!
one of my favorite setting is the world of the mirror visitor, all of the places have such a strong atmosphere and vibe
Great Video!
Most YA books force their worldbilding and how amazing and beautiful the MC is on the very FiRST page🤢
I personally love Fourth Wing (it's the first time I've seen my chronic illness portrayed in fiction). But the dialogue when trying to drop exposition is terrible. The line where Violet mentions her hair turning silver at the tips is so clunky that it feels anything but natural. And her whole thing of reciting facts when she's scared feels counterintuitive rather than helpful. Speaking as someone who can give lots of fun facts and info dumping, I'm not going to do it when I'm trying to focus on doing a physical task and not die.
Elliot❤
Did you do the 🍄 emoji because of the Mushroom Kingdom?
37:21 WOW I have Aphantasia no mind's eye and I don't "see" any scene from books. It's got to be very annoying if it doesn't work out from what you expect it to be. Also, contraindications from what is written. Bummer 😕
That was my comment, and yes, it can be infuriating! Makes me wish I could turn off the running movie in my head sometimes 😂
Yay! This is exactly what I needed today! It’s raining cats and dogs where I live 💧💦
Cozy reading weather.I love cats and dogs😁
@@lisapoe888 ❤️❤️❤️
Yes! I was so happy to see this video too. :)
@@JovieStroll-f8t 🤗
i dont have much to say other than i strongly dislike desert settings.. i find them so boring regardless of how well theyre described
Are you throwing shade at Erikson, Elle? :D
This was also my guess…
my god, that dude talking about Faulker, there has to be a way to get your point across in fewer words man!
Totally agree, and I wrote it.
@@michaelmasiello6752 Well I enjoyed your unabridged thoughts; they were probably my favourite part of the whole video!
Aw, thank you. That makes me feel better. I felt so sorry for Elle, reading all that aloud! She’s a very generous soul. I’m so glad what I wrote was enjoyable for you!
@@michaelmasiello6752I loved and agreed with everything you said. If you hadn’t said it, then it would have been me 😂🤝 especially about writers showing language the respect it deserves.
I love settings that look real and bring me into the story and don’t look boring 🍃💛🖤🍃🍃🎃🎃🎃🍁🍂🍂🍁💛🖤🍃🤎🤎🖤🖤🍃🍃👻🍁🎃🎃🎃🍃🤎🤎📖📙📚📚📚📙📖📙📚📚📚📙📖📙📙📚📚📚📚📚📙📖📖📖📙📚📚📙📖📖
How do you know what anything looks like in a book?