don't get mad at me also, one thing I wish I would have dove into is how for some games it is easy for me to look back at the memory of playing a game and hold onto that regardless of if I still enjoy playing it today, but for others (like the three games I talk about in this video) I can't seem to hold onto that initial memory as well and start to sour on the game as a whole. I have not thought about it enough to have an answer as to why that is. I touch on it a tiny bit when talking about games that you can't truly replay and how you go into replaying those with the mindset that a new playthrough isn't designed to be the same, but I think there is a ton more in that space to explore, especially considering that there are games that I think suck to play now that are highly replayable, yet I don't have the same sour feeling towards them as I do towards these three. Could be something about the game, could be my mindset when I replayed them, could be the strength of the original memory when I played it, could be all of these things and more. oh and one other thing I wish I would have done a bit differently was how I talked about Majora's Mask. I stand by all of my thoughts on how the game didn't hit for me on my most recent playthrough, but I think I presented it as if a switch had flipped and that the game means nothing to me now when that is not the case. The more accurate view is that when replaying it, I just could tell that if this was a game I kept coming back to, eventually the good memories I had of it (whether those be from when I played the game or was just obsessed with hearing about it) would be replaced by my more current lukewarm feelings on it, so I have decided that in order to preserve what love I still have for MM, I am better off not playing it anymore lol. anyway, have a good one.
@@Walamonga1313 Even in souls, a second playthrough will never be the same as the first. You will be more aware of your surroundings, ambushes and suprise tactics will be less effective, you will have a general idea of where to go, etc. That magic of exploring an unknown world will be lessened considerably.
If the game is good,it's good end of discussion,i could only apply that logic to visuals of the game,or maybe if the game is somehow connected to how i felt at that time,being younger,in love,seeing world with different eyes there are many reasons,but what i'm trying to say is i came back and replayed many games and i still think they are awesome,i played infinite at launch,and it never clicked with me,just pointing one game as example (if you like it,you like it no problem with that) but to me that game was not Bioshock,just like Bioshock was not system shock to it's fans,to many differences in gameplay,limiting weapons to two,redundant and nonsense story end.
ok awesome video, very insightful as usual, great points were made, but have you considered that majora's mask is actually still the GOAT and you're wrong
@kaleb roark Agreed, I definately like the idea of MM better, the story was great the combat improvements were fun, but one complete playthrough is all I can put myself through, whereas I continually replay OoT.
That's why I'm not hyped about the New Final Fantasy XVI. I used to play final fantasy with my friend. He stopped playing them after 13, so I can't talk about them with him anymore
I think that's a really good way of putting it. When I replayed the Ezio trilogy last week all I could actually think about were my memories as a teenager where I just burned through each release again and again and again. I remembered what houses I lived in for each game, what I was worried about, things I might have had planned, friends I had who enjoyed the games too.
This is one franchise I could see myself not loving as much in retrospect. At the time, those games were pretty much my absolute favorites. I can remember them being the games that got me into story telling in games. The narrative was hugely eye opening for me. I actually picked them up on steam not too long ago, and I am a little anxious about how I'll like them whenever I play them again.
@@AzureViking I picked up sands of time recently and it's actually still a really smooth experience that I think holds up. The combat is still meh but the running on walls and platforming still feels really good, and if anything I appreciated the characters more. Never realized how much of an elitest prick the prince was and how that's basically the point of it, when I was younger I thought he was just a cool charming adventurer
As a kid, I usually assumed that hard games were hard because I was a kid and needed to get better. As an adult, there a several games that I can't go back to because I now know they're hard for other reasons, such as poor controls.
Poor controls are what you call game that's actually unique. Back in my day games like Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, WWF War Zone, required you to learn new ways to play and once I mastered them it was a lot more fun. But then the crybabies come and bitch about controls and so now everything feels the same. Yay thanks society. Now I feel like I played every game 100 times
@@I_Am_The_Social_Reject we are the cry babies? Really the way i see it you are the one crying because some folks don't like your childhood games, you guys love to throw the "back in my day argument" like we give a shit
I have often felt this way about books. I sometimes miss the days when I was a kid before I developed "taste." When I could just pick up any chapter book at the grocery store book rack and enjoy reading it for what it was. Now before I commit to buying a book I have to go online and read a dozen opinions on whether or not it was "worth" reading.
Maybe that has to do with using money that you may think is more important for something else, in a way you can't afford to buy something bad because you don't know when the next one may be, at least it's what happens to me.
Time is more important than the money. It hurts to expend time on unfulfilling activities. A bad book or game is still a novel experience when you are young. It's tedious to experience the same type of bad repeatedly.
Honestly I feel I appreciate media more after having developed taste. Like, sure, I don't blindly enjoy every single movie/book I pick up. But the ones I do, I can gush about why they're so good and get genuinely excited when someone else has seen the same thing. I also genuinely like discussing media (talking about Black Panther 2 was a lot more fun than actually watching it), which I feel I wouldn't be able to do if I weren't the way I am now. It's all about perspectives I guess.
You don't know my pain when dealing with the "Forgotten Realms' books back in the 90's.. Too many books already and some out of print. I was hesitant to get into that series because I knew I'd never get all the books ;(
I think the reason games such as outer wilds and BotW seem like they will be more resilient to this isn't because they are made in a way to prevent this from happening, but because they are made in a way to pretty much guarantee this happens. The awe and wonder you experience in the first playthrough is immediately gone on any subsequent playthrough no matter how long its been since your first one. Whenever you go back to it, you are not playing the same game because your first playthrough WAS the game. And you know this going in when replaying it so it helps to remove disappointment.
I've always considered both of those games to be less going to locations to complete a goal, task, whatever and more the act of travel itself. Like I still don't engage much with BotW combat after 200 hours, I'm perfectly good at it and have a nice collection of lynel bows etc. but to me the core gameplay was always picking a landmark or direction to go towards, figuring out how to scale a tall cliff, where to light a campfire to wait through the night etc. The gameplay IS the exploring and the adventure, it's almost entirely movement and mechanics and doesn't need to serve a story or gameplay purpose so I feel like it holds up better than a game which treats the destinations, enemies and rigid pathways as the focus. I even feel it with Skyrim, exploring a ruin is basically 15 minutes of holding W followed by a dungeon that might not hold up now so may games have done them better. You travel through the world but only to reach the real goal, which might not age as well as the world itself
@@helplmchoking I think you’re onto something. It’s kind of like people create different meta-games that influence how they view and play them. Your meta-game for BoTW is more like mine but Raz’s seems quite different. Speed-runners clearly have an entirely different one. And depending on that meta, the game’s lifespan will vary. Mine has given me around a thousand hours (and still playing it) but someone like Limcube has managed to have fun for 6000 hours (and build a career).
I've not played outer wilds myself, but I've found that replaying breath of the wild had its own appeal. Nothing will ever live up to the first time, but going into the world and knowing whats going on, as well as being significantly more skilled, allows you to experience the game in a way different to the first time.
I revisit that quartet version of "god only knows" at least 3 times a year. I think the story was muddled and the middle of infinite was messy/boring. But that music has aged like wine.
@@a70turbo lil bro makes minecraft videos and has the audacity to talk about “growing up”. Man if you’re too room temperature iq to understand the game its fine.
never have I felt more vindicated than you bringing up the problems with AC2, not just because I agree with it, but because I thought I was going crazy after revisiting it recently and absolutely not enjoying it as much as I used to
AC2 is extremely hard to play after you already played AC: Brotherhood. It's just an improvement in every way.
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@@TheKarabanera Definitely disagree, the map of Brotherhood really lacks that variety of urban environments that the previous two had. Just the fact that about 3/4 of the game is just countryside with few houses and small buildings thrown around makes it far less enjoyable to navigate than AC2.
I was worried I would feel the same way about AC4 as I did AC2. I have some nostalgia for AC2, but nothing like I do for AC4. Seeing how clunky AC2 was after all these years made me worry that I would feel the same disappointment for AC4. Replaying it recently, while there are a lot of issues typical of Ubisoft titles, I had a blast with AC4. The game still looked really good, the music was great, the ship gameplay is still as awesome as it was a decade ago etc.. Even the real world animus segments didn't bother me that much compared to the other games. Heavily flawed, especially with those godforsaken escort/trailing missions, but still a fun time.
and I didn't play AC2 before so when I tried it a year ago, (cuz obviously everywhere I saw people worshipping it) I thought there must be something wrong with me as it's not AT ALL better than later ACs
I work in sales and one of the things that has stuck with me from my old boss is that ‘customers will remember how they FELT when they were with you, but they won’t remember what happened’. This advice has helped me so much and I think a similar logic applies here.
"Customers will remember how they FELT when they were with you, buy they won't remember what happened." I really do have a mind in the gutter sometimes.
I think it's important to remember, even as you feel loss over your experience with these titles, it just proves that art is alive. While technically unchanging, the idea that you can come back to something and understand it differently, for better or for worse, is part of that life.
It's the exciting thing about putting things out in the world. But also the extremely sad thing about how difficult it is to play older games due to lackluster preservation for many of them.
It's what keeps creativity alive, I guess. No art can be perfect and the games that might have been a totally unique experience we'd never expected, or combined elements into the perfect combination for what we wanted, or just made such an emotional impact, don't stay perfect to us. We understand different things, value different experiences and play different ways through time so it's only natural that we seek out different experiences
@@xxXDrAwesomeXxx Should we? I think we can learn more from being disappointed than fully satisfied because we can ask, what was I expecting? And go on to make or consume art that fills that need instead. And, of course, the most loving thing you can do to art is let it be.
I actually have the opposite reaction to OoT and MM. Trying to replay OoT I almost always come away disillusioned. The one exception being the first time I played Master Quest. But Majora's Mask I adore returning to. Part of it is that MM has what I find to be a deeply alluring replayability hook- since I know where all the masks are, I start planning out routes for each three days to try to optimize my playthrough. Not really a speedrun, more just to avoid downtime. But it's actually really engaging and a form of gameplay that is very rare, perhape unique.
One thing that I feel is rarely talked about in MM is movement. I grew up primarily playing platformers, and the way Link moves in typical Zelda games felt so slow and limited, and it delayed my eventual embrace of the franchise. But in MM, you have Epona like in OoT. Then you have the bunny ears, you can barrel across terrain with the Goron, you have amazing swimming that the franchise is deathly afraid of giving us ever again (even in this game's remake), the Deku gives you bursts of speed, floating, and skipping, and you can make ice platforms. I find it really appealing to return to again and again when you can change up the mundane task of getting from here to there so much.
I've been playing Majora's Mask for like 15 years, and every time I replay it I enjoy it on a deeper level. It really has a lot going for it, even if it is jank.
I tried to replay OoT recently and I found the pacing to be far slower than what I remembered. It felt like it took ages between finishing the Deku Tree and starting Dodongo's Cavern.
I think it's always good to remember that even if you don't like a game you used to love after a later playthrough, that will never take away from the enjoyment you had during that 1st playthrough. It's already in the past so it is set in stone.
@@gregoryford2532 The experience itself will never change, only the memory of it. Once you had that enjoyment in the past, time can ruin the memory of it but never the actual experience of it as it's locked in time.
I think all of this is why I love video game music so much - sure, it's not the interactive part, but it's the part that can keep the memories and emotions intact even if the gameplay or story doesn't hit the same anymore. Also, really feel that part about needing to look at games more analytically, which is why I love every time a game comes around that breaks through the barrier and DOES just immerse me in the spectacle.
It's so weird like I listen to super Mario sunshine music and I just have this strong sense of nostalgia, comfort, and joy. I imagine me playing the game and jumping around isle Delfino. Then I recently played the game and I didn't enjoy it at all and was just finding it frustrating. Then I just listened to the music on its own and then felt those same cozy feelings. I want to go back to an emotion.
I reckon you're on the money there. All the games from my childhood (GT4, GTA:SA, NFS undergorund 1/2/Most wanted) have music that is consdiered iconic to me, anyone else's opinion be damned
I think an important factor that you didn't mention is that your intentions for playing vs replaying the games are different. When you play the game for the first time you are just trying to… have fun and experience it. Maybe there was some hype around it but you are mostly approaching a new piece of content with a fresh mind. When you replay games though, especially in your case, it seems like you are trying to validate some ideas, and hunting for the "oh wow this was great" moment, which I think colors your perception of the game. You can already see the twists coming, you already know the plot, and you are kind of looking for what you didn't know before, or reaffirming certain built-up ideas of the game. You already mentioned games like Outer Wilds aren't designed to be replayed but I don't see how games like Majora's Mask are different and it seems like an arbitrary distinction. I personally don't get this whole replayable shtick that gamers / reviewers start to demand of single player games as I find that they lead to unnecessarily needpicky criticisms (e.g. even Outer Wilds sees that criticism sometimes). That's literally not the point of these games! People can play roguelike for example for replayability. But yes unfortunately we will never be able to wipe our memories to try to evaluate a game in 2023 with a fresh mind if we have already played it before. But yes, some games definitely age more poorly than others. For the memory aspect of it, a funny thing is I think for two of my favorite games (Outer Wilds and The Witness), I didn't actually enjoy them *that* much while playing them. It's only near the end, and also thinking more about them and reading what others were saying that I started to build more appreciation. Does that mean they were bad games though? I think even if the grind was a little tough and unenjoyable (e.g. The Witness had some tough puzzles that stumped me), the post-game analysis and thoughts were part of playing the game as well.
Nostalgia rarely exists in my experience. If a game was good back then it's still good today as long as you play it right. (Don't play old games on an LCD)
This is why every game in my "best" list are games i have played several times in different points in my life. That makes those games actually grow with me.
this video makes me appreciate super mario galaxy so much more. its my favorite game of all time, and i replay it atleast once a year if not multiple times, and it never gets old for me. i consider it one of the most finely crafted experiences in gaming.
I just want to take a moment to say thank you for adding proper subtitles! It means a lot to those of us who rely on subtitles to fully understand and enjoy the video. It's appreciated. Thank you.
@@AliceDiableaux I have the same issue with shows I watch, the subtitles are either wildly wrong or un synced to the video by a minute (either fast or slow, toss up between the two depending on how the app feels I guess)
Iirc TH-cam defaults to no CC, makes me wonder how many creators aren't aware of it, becuase I can't think of anyone thinking "I'm not going to click the CC box because fuck people who want CC". I can only imagine it's unknown.
Chiming in with the same thing. I'm not hard of hearing but I'm autistic enough to have always watched everything with subs, ever since I was a kid. I can definitely process what I'm hearing better with subs, and relying on CC's gets things across just fine generally, but it's always nice to see people make the effort, especially considering people who actually *are* hard of hearing.
I think most of what you experienced with these games comes down to nostalgia shock. If you play them for a couple of minutes every once in a while, instead of idealize them, you slowly cement your opinion of them in a more realistic and mature way. I replay my faves every once in a while for maybe an hour or so and this gradually reconciles the negatives while solidifying the positives in a realistic way. One commenter said that you don't miss the game as much as you miss the time you played, and that becomes true if the games live only in your distant memories , but if you keep playing, you bring the game to the present, giving it a fair look at its positives and negatives.
This is a good point. Two of my favourite games, dark souls and metroid prime 2, I reply every year or two and I'm never sad or dissapointed by them and that truly might be because I play them so frequently
I don’t play games much but I do love shows and for me my favorites have stayed my favorites so far. Some of them are a little harder to rewatch than others but the reason I love them is because I’m always drawn back to them
I deadass was so moved by Infinite, I quit a dead end job out of the blue. I was cleaning some disgusting gutter in the floor of a kitchen of a restaurant while listening to ‘will the circle be unbroken” and had enough. Worked out well for me
@@donsolo7860 It's a Saturday night and this is how you're spending it? Sad. I doubled my earnings when I left and I'm around 5x now maybe more. That restaurant is gone.
@@lukesguywalker it absolutely can get better don't lose hope and always keep a lookout for better opportunities, I was in a dead end temp job for about 8 months with the hopes of being hired on as an actual employee with better pay and benefits dangled in my face if I worked hard, was working 6 12 hour days and still struggling to pay bills, eventually I got burned out and stopped showing up went to a job fair shortly after and met a recruiter for a job in oil and gas, they hired me on and I got to travel and make great money for a few years, after a while I decided I didn't want to travel anymore and became a union electrician and my life is 1000x better than it was just 4-5 years ago, it can always get better you just have to keep your eye out for better opportunities and don't allow the dark times to swallow you like it nearly did to me
@@lukesguywalker Sometimes it does. A lot of the time it doesn't. Life is often tough and bleak and most of the time for most people things never get better. People just like to hear feel-good stories of how someone pulled out of a slump and ended up with money or a wife and kids or whatever but that doesn't happen most of the time.
Majora's Mask excels somewhere around the halfway point of an initial playthrough, when your mind starts to map everything in the game world together. Exploring and engaging grants you gain a new understanding of the characters and setting, and once that clicks it's an indescribable feeling of empathy, dread, melancholy, etc. You can't really experience it a second time. I was so deeply moved by that game upon my first completion, but upon coming back to it you already know the ins and outs of the game and it's hard to recreate that first contact. In the same way you can never have the "aha" moment of a mystery, for instance.
@@Jeanssj98to be a "mid" game it would need competition in a way that actually tried to achieve the same but did it better. While I enjoy botw and totk, they do vastly different things If you can give me a compact item based closed-ended 3d action adventure that isn't a hack-and-slash, I would thank you a lot actually. There are a few that I would say are just as good as the old 3d Zelda, but I'm still searching for a "Zelda but better" game
I just played the bioshock games for the first time because everybody was praising them and I loved them. Games dont have to be perfect, they just have to feel perfect.
I just started bioshock last week, got the whole trilogy on sale for $15AUD (a steal). I'm really enjoying myself so much, the gameplay is fun and the world building is so compelling, but by far my biggest issue with it right off the bat was "so we're really indiscriminately killing these residents of a secluded realm that we happened to stumble upon and we seem to be oddly okay with it." So I imagine replaying a game can really highlight issues like that 😅 Edit: so I'm now almost done with it and, well... Let's just say my initial impression wasn't a narrative oversight.
I’m just too critical of games to enjoy them when someone already did it much better. I can never get over how poorly implemented Infinites gameplay is compared to Bioshock 1 and 2.
The ending of Infinite made me so excited for the future of the franchise. An anthology series with wildly different settings based on the same premise: "There's always a man, a lighthouse, a city." Then the DLC closed that door real quick.
Have you heard of the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV? With an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime.
That is a great way to look at it, i think i ll use it from time to time but sometimes the memories can be exceeded. I have revisited Warframe after a long time and while i had fun with the new quests i don't know how long will i stick around, in this case it was better as a memory. On the other hand i have also replayed Morrowind to finish it after years, and i can say that i had as much if not more fun with it, it lived up to the memory and then some (Admittedly when i played it first i literally used it to try and learn English, so its a different kind of fun but whatever)
Occasionally they can still hit. I played Transformers Fall of Cybertron last year for its 10 year anniversary and it was just as enjoyable as I remembered.
I say better to go for it. What have you really lost if you're disappointed? You still had the great time you originally had, nothing can ever take that away. And alongside gaining a new perspective on art, you stand a chance to have another great time all over again. Grab what you can, when you can, because one day you can't, and then you'll regret it. Like who knows when a piece of old tech will fail, or a licencing law will get randomly tightened, or a company will simply decide to stop supporting something and remove it from everywhere? Who knows what your health's going to be tomorrow, or if you'll even have a roof over your head? If you think it might be fun today and you have the spare time, give it the chance, and if it turns out it isn't, well you found out, which is no worse than if you hadn't. I have had an awesome time returning to several old games and am certain it's not the last time. Even ones I've been relatively disappointed by I've still had fun with.
As a vintage game collector and player, I relate too strongly to this. I am very nostalgic by nature, and it has taken me aback as age has removed the shades of fondness of classics when I replay them. It’s often a reminder of how much I have changed since then.
I tend to feel the same way, I was afraid to replay Koudelka for years because of this, surprisingly the game does still hold up to this day, except for some annoying parts where bad luck would just kill you
I think retro-reviews and replays often fail to recapture the magic because most people aren't trying to reply a game, they're trying to re-experience an emotion. A lot of good storytelling works similarly to a magic trick. Just like a good illusion, a good story will have setup, misdirection and payoff. Sometimes you come out of a story wondering how it made you feel the way it did, but understand the "trick" often takes away the magic. A lot of stories aren't made to be told twice. It's not bad storytelling per se, so much as the plot intentionally sacrifices logical consistency to deliver the intended punch, and if it does things right you don't actually realize it doesn't make sense until either a second go, or somebody points a core flaw out to you. It's not a problem exclusive to video games (and debatably it's not even a problem), but I do think gaming suffers more because gaming gets away with shallower stories and cheaper twists than some other media because the nature of interactivity builds a personal investment easier than the passive role most people take in other media. In gaming, we don't watch the magic trick, we participste in the show.
I usually find stories like that are pretty shallow in the moment as well though. Most of the best stories aren't built off of a magic trick, but usually a communication and demonstration of a human truth. It's fun to experience a magic trick like Bioshock 1 every once in a while, but a story that gets deep down and explores the nuances of life like an MGS3 is pretty much timeless and endlessly replayable.
This is why fans of movies are better rewarded. You get movies like Marvel schlock, sure, but get high quality things like City of God, Hereditary, Oldboy or Zodiac, which rewards rewatches and can be enjoyed once by their cheer excellence in storytelling and character depth. Those things are rarely present in games, and not in the same level.
@@TheLingo56 I couldn't agree more. I would go as far as to disagree entirely with OP and say that that _is_ bad storytelling. In my opinion, and it is just that, a story that can only be told once isn't a story worth telling.
@@lesedimokgobi You make a fair point, in that I think about the story of Outer Wilds all the time and would not at all mind experiencing that aspect of the game again. So there is a manner of subjectivity to it. If you're talking about the fact that the game itself can't be fully experienced more than once, I would consider that an entirely different subject from the topic of storytelling.
This is actually really strange considering I just had a very opposite experience you did with infinite. When I was young I really didn't like it because nothing in the story and time travel stuff added up. But as an adult I played through it again and actually really enjoyed it. Not for the story but for the atmosphere and spectacle. It felt fresh to me in the modern day where so many big games have no soul to them. It's weird how opposite our experiences with it are.
This is such a wonderful counterpoint. I wonder if you growing up gave you the ability to be critical in a way that let the game shine for what it was, while for Raz it forced him to see what it was. Similar paths, just opposite directions.
I haven’t played any Bioshock (I wish I could, but I am physically incapable of playing first person games, depressingly) but I feel this way about any game with soul. Games that get critiqued for not making enough “sense” or “not saying something meaningful” just feels weird to me. Why does it have to say something deeply meaningful? Why can’t it just be a great game with a great soul? If I thoroughly enjoy something and it makes me excited and happy, why isn’t that what matters the most?
@@fluffyphoenix8082 I feel like expectations are a huge factor. Young Razbuten didn't see the inconsistencies and had his mind blown by the story so when he revisited as an adult expecting the same thing he was disappointed. Young me being a huge fan of the other bioshocks went in expecting an extremely deep story with meaningful twists and turns and was disappointed but old me went in expecting a fun shooter and was delighted by the world building, atmosphere and spectacle. I feel for you not being able to play I have a friend who has a similar issue and it sucks not being able to share those experiences with him.
I’m the same way. I hated infinite on my first play through as I liked the first two games so much. Played it a month or so again and found myself invested in it
@@fluffyphoenix8082 The main difference is that some games try to be meaningful, but just aren't. If a game is just meant to be meaningless fun out the gate, that's fine. It's when games obviously try and fail to have some "deep meaning" that it gets annoying.
I’ve replayed a lot of games that I initially loved but have never experienced what you spoke about here. I pretty much still feel the same about them as I always did
@@drforestQuite same. I have only a few replays. I had multiple playthroughs of Ac brotherhood and 3, Sekiro, Gta 4, BF1 and enjoyed them every time. But yeah the mystery of story is not the same.
The "give me back my daughter" scene lives rent free in my brain and it always will. Honestly, the game being objectively good or bad doesn't matter to me because the story had such an impact on me.
Games can't be objectively good or objectively bad. Everything in art is subjective. If someone genuinely loves Ride to Hell Retribution or Duke Nukem Forever, then those are good games to them. Any objective qualities are irrelevant.
Memories and nostalgia often combine to make people remember the feeling of something at that time in your life versus the actual reality of what it was. People who "miss" video rental stores like Blockbuster forget what it actually was like and only remember the positive feeling of being a carefree kid on a Friday night, for instance.
Great comparison. As much as it was fun to go to Blockbuster, pick out a movie, get the popcorn etc people forget it was mildly inconvenient (movie you want not being there, driving 20 mins to get there etc) but I believe it was the “community” aspect of it that was so appealing. Look at gaming now, since the Xbox 360/PS3 era the in game lobbies and random custom game parties were in abundance… now not so much. There is a huge nostalgia for that era now too, and 2 of the games in this video came out during that time
@@kratos823 He was just wrong. It was enjoyable to go to the video store and walk around reading the backs of boxes. And I have no idea where people live that it took 20 minutes to drive to a video store. Then what you rented you appreciated and watched because there weren't 10 million other options at your fingertips once you got home.
Yep, I was terrible about forgetting to bring the tapes back and having to pay late fees. Or going to get a specific movie you've been wanting to see, and it's all checked out. Yeah I don't miss it.
@@cmdrfunk I agree with the points you’ve raised. I don’t live in the USA so may have a different perspective than you. I loved Blockbuster, bought a few of my favourite games there and rented great movies there too.. I was just saying that objectively speaking it was an inconvenience compared to today’s setup. 20 mins in USA driving is 10 miles down a straight road living the dream… 20 minutes elsewhere in the world is 3 miles but stuck in inner city traffic on small roads for 17 of those 20 mins. Perspective.
For me it was Bioshock 1. I remember replaying it recently and just...being annoyed and even got bored to the point of dropping it. Dark Messiah of Might and Magic is also a candidate. Nostalgia is a powerful drug.
I feel like at least one aspect of this is also the fact that games have an impact on subsequent games. If a game excels at something, it shapes and influences new games a few years later. Games as a media constantly improves and reforms as a whole and what made Bioshock Infinite great back then is part of the DNA of games that came afterwards.
@@razbuten I was actually right at that point and wrote the comment as you were speaking. You're saying that AC2 is the Ubisoft rule, but I'd say it's a bit different. If a game like AC2 shapes the genre or industry as much as it does, I wouldn't consider it the "first offender". It's often called the "Ubisoft formula" and I'd say that word fits better, because it aknowledges, that it started becoming the "norm" after AC2.
It's not just games, it happens with things like film and TV too. There's a trope called "Seinfeld is Unfunny" that basically stems from the fact that Seinfeld was such an enormously popular and influential TV show that things that made it seem fresh and novel at the time now just seem like a parade of clichés, because they've been copied so widely by things that came after it.
And yet there are movies, books, TV series, etc. that still hold up decades or even centuries later even despite the fact that they've been copied countless times. For games too there are true classics that stand the test of time. I think a unique challenge for games is that a player needs to put in dozens (or hundreds) of hours to complete them, which is a higher cost compared to rewatching movies or even re-reading books. Combine this with the fact that outdated mechanics can be tedious (e.g., fetch quests, random battles, unstoppable cutscenes, empty open worlds, etc.) and it makes sense that very few games truly stand the test of time.
@@thatanimeweirdo It's absolutely true that AC2 has power in gaming history as a trendsetter, but as discussed in the video, that doesn't affect the play experience. It could be said to make the game special, but that context doesn't change the fact that when you play the game it will feel similar to other games, which might even do what it does better. Either way, it will feel redundant. Why play a game that's only historically interesting?
it's ok to consider something a personal favorite simply because it opened your eyes to something new and exciting, even if you find it lacking in the grandeur you remember upon revisiting it. the shows "are you afraid of the dark?" and "so weird" remain some of my absolute favorites even though i KNOW if i were to actually sit down and watch any of the episodes now, i'd probably physically injure myself cringing lol. but i still love them because they introduced me to the wonders that can be found in horror, scary stories, and mystical thinking and nothing can change that. so it's ok for you to enjoy infinite despite you recent revelation because it's the game that inspired you to explore video games on a deeper level. you wouldn't be where you are without it
I think there's an importance of separating your experience then from your experience now. For example, growing up, I really loved the game Marvel Ultimate Alliance because it was a fun beat 'em up game with my favourite superheroes that I played with my brothers. If I played it now I'm sure I'd probably find it dull and the graphics incredibly dated. Does that cheapen my original experience? No, because I'm aware of the separation. I think the disappointment that the guy in the video is talking about largely comes from expectations. If he went into those games with the mindset that they'll probably be worse, but that he knows he had fun as a kid then I think he'd still have a lot more of the respect of those games that he used to.
This is actually a really good way to describe my growing with Ocarina of Time. It was an iconic game, it did a ton for gaming, hell, it got me INTO video games. But as much as I appreciate it, I have to acknowledge the bad parts(like the repetitive combat cycles, the fact that the game itself aged like milk, so on). And as a result, I have a healthy appreciation for a game that has widely been considered one of the best, but not TOO much of an appreciation that I get lost in that nostalgic hype.
I mean I still watch “are you afraid of the dark?” to appreciate the practical effects, and the “so bad it’s good” acting (although that point holds more with the goosebumps tv show) But yh, highly recommend a rewatch of ur fave episodes if you haven’t in a while
I think we also should accept that things can be great in different ways than they used to. I loved "Are You Afraid of the Dark" because it was spooky and cool, now I love it because it is cheesy, spoopy, and nostalgic. The flaws and camp of it is the personality that gives it quality. Don't go into it expecting it to be the same, go into it seeing what made it so fun. You know what it is, so don't watch it for what it ain't. And maybe make it a watchparty with friends (who watched the show) and alcohol...
I recently played Majora's mask for the first time, and I had VERY minimal nostalgia for it, pretty much all I did as a kid was mess around in clock town, because as you said in the video it's hard to grasp the time loop mechanic as a kid. But even though I called myself a big Zelda fan ever since I played OoT, I just remember thinking I didn't really need to experience Majora's mask because it was just the less popular version of OoT, and the thought of understanding the time loop scared me. I heard that it was "dark" and "depressing" but I thought when people said that they meant that it was for a Nintendo game, (kinda like the ending of link's awakening.) So I went into the game with lower expectations. And now I'm considering weather I like it MORE than OoT, because it really surprised me with just how emotional the game really could be. I felt the fear and dread that the npcs did when the final day was nearing an end, and the realization that I'm not really saving anyone or helping anyone, but just abandoning timelines to hopefully save the world hit me like a truck. The time loop mechanic that used to scare me away from the game was one of my favorite parts of it. I'm not saying all of this to try and convince you to like MM or anything, it's just that I agree with you that it's not that the game has aged poorly, but that expectations and poor memory can really ruin something you used to love.
I think that, in Raz's case, it's more about the fact he originally disliked the game but afterwards got taken in by the hype and subconsciously edited his own memories with the game to make it better than what it was. As for me, I've replayed MM recently after first playing it as a teen and I still liked it.
It's also worth considering whether to play the original N64 version (or a port) or the 3DS remaster - the latter has a mix of improvements and disimprovements (and some more-or-less neutral changes), so picking the better version is non-trivial...
Don't ever listen to anybody when they describe a game (or movie, or book, etc.) to you. They're always full of it. Experience it for yourself. Assume other people are morons and ignore them. Good rule of thumb.
I never played OoT or MM on the original n64. I did not even play OoT until my late teens and MM even later. I seriously think that you cannot only play a game as a kid and then more than a decade later and find the same game. So after playing many different games, OoT was still amazing. Explore a world that to me was new (first Zelda game), puzzle together the timelines and the still clear goals and how to achieve them (most of the time). I am pretty sure if I replay it now (especially withmy gf who would see it for her first time), my nostalgia might pull me through enough to ignore some dated and mostly slow segments. The story and world would still be intriguing, even if the gameplay itself would be hampered by the dated design. MM however, to me, does the opposite. I kind of knew what to expect also due to learning about the zelda lore after getting more invested in zelda with BotW. But the way you control everything, I just could not be bothered to deal with the old (control) design. I got so frustrated trying to find stuff and do them in time before a day ended, or do aiming with horrible controls. I do not think I lasted even 1 cycle, maybe not even a full day. So unfortunately, I do not think I will ever play MM, since I do not have the nostalgia to make it through.
You say that, but MM really didn't age that well either. Some of it is still good today, sure, like the atmosphere, but there are other elements, such as the controls, that I'll never understand someone pretending are good. Not that you are specifically, but that you hear people online say things like that. To me MM did age somewhat poorly. The way it looks, from the textures, to the models, is very iconic and does, to a degree anyways, lend itself to the overall atmosphere, as I noted before. That said, it's an ugly game in a lot of ways and the advancement in video games has shown me that. There is a way someone could fix the game up to be more bearable to loop at while keeping 99 or 100% of that appeal and that's what I'd love to see. Metroid Prime is a good example-- though I'm rambling at this point.
Yikes yeah. Having an awesome looking and semi-decent SW game(with actual lightsaber duels) was a big deal by itself. It's just the fact we got one at all was probably why we accepted its MANY flaws. Going back to it now is a huge shock to the system. It's very mediocre.
As a huge TFU fan, who just played the games as recently as last year, the game is still great. It has flaws but it's still a blast (QTE's haven't aged well at all) Are you sure you aren't just getting the PC/PS3/Xbox and PSP/WII/PS2 versions mixed up, they're basically 2 different games and a lot of people consider the ps2/psp/wii version to be the best.
I never had any nostalgia for TFU having first played it when I was like 19. I think it's a very competent hack and slash game. The force powers are STILL the best of any star wars title and it's fun to slaughter stormtroopers by the dozen. The game has multiple enemy types, a lot of unique locations; what's not to like? One thing I could possibly complain about is the graphics wich are showing their age at some points with muddy textures, especially compared to TFU 2 (even if the sequel is definitely the worse game overall).
The thing that's so necessary about Assassin's Creed 2 specifically is the attention to detail in the level design. Its interpretation of historical Italy and its architectural history is honestly incredible, they did the work to create a legitimate piece of virtual tourism and that makes it timeless
@breadandcircuses8127 at this point only on the strength of accomplishment in its level design. the recreation of Florence, its significant buildings alone, not to mention the other cities featured in the game...in the series, this is rivaled only by the scale of Unity's Paris and the socioeconomic depictions in Origin's Egypt
I agree, and having just finished replaying the game in the last month I can say that it really does hold up gameplay wise (aside from a couple odd quirks, such as the beat-em-up quests that felt very forced). I was actually relieved that it's a comparatively short game with fewer side things to do compared to games that came out later, even in the same series. I also replayed AC1 and found it to be unpolished and buggy in spite of its potential which it never quite reached, and think that AC2 is the sweet spot among all the AC games which became too bloated even if the physics improved. And of course, the history. I recently read Machiavelli's History of Florence prior to the replay and was happy to trace the research that the game's developers did and appreciate the work that few gamers would ever notice but which added an additional layer of realism.
Your reaction to Majora’s Mask is the reason why I’ve never played it, been tempted to because of the aesthetic, conversation, and how so many people cherish it, but I know myself well enough to know that it’s not for me, I want it to be but it’s not
I have nearly the opposite problem: I love things less the longer it's been. I convince myself, I'm just being nostalgic. I re-read my favorite story once a year for this reason. Each time I expect to come away disillusioned, and while its flaws become clearer each time, it remains my favorite.
@@tuusolpl8945 You didn't pay attention to the video if you still think there's nothing wrong with being nostalgic. It distorts your memory and expectations to a unreasonable degree.
@@cormano64 ye thas alri. Its just your memories of videogames/whatever, and theyre pleasent. you dont really *gain* anything by getting rid of nostalgia. He talks about exactly thia in the video too mate. 18:00
This actually reminded me of a motel my family went to when I was a child on a vacation to Cape Cod. Over a decade later my parents wanted us to all go back to Cape Cod and I was extremely hesitant because I thought the reality could not possibly compare to my memory (And in case you're wondering, the motel wasn't absolutely perfect the second time around, but it was still a great, great time)
It’s sooo tedious in the end when you are just searching for the last things. I loved in the beginning but Would never replay it (until the rose tinted Nostalgia googles take over probably)
Bro one of the best games for sure. The experience was surreal. My only complaint was the last step to get into ash twin was very obtuse. And sadly it's a once in a lifetime experience. Even though I did enjoy the subsequent replays, nothing will ever hit the same as discovering everything for the first time.
I still go back and play the Jak, Ratchet, and Sly games every 5 years or so. There's very little about most of the games in those series that I dislike now that I'm older. I'd be lying if I said there weren't a few things but in my opinion aside from all of the nostalgia I have for them they are still amazing games. :)
I don’t like the main city in Jak 2. There’s a bunch of npc’s around but the city still feels hollow. It was a ps2 game though, so you’ve got to cut it some slack
@swissfan100 It was also one of the first games to straight rip off GTA3s open world city. It was just an accomplishment to have a persistant city with crowd AI that worked. Sprinkle in a handful of racing and hide and seek mini games and youve got one of the biggest games on the market in 2003!
@@Tamacat388 I first played jak 2 around 2016 so by the time I played it, it was rough in terms of open world obviously. What amazes me though is I played gta IV in like 2008 or 9 and liberty city feels almost as empty, so jak 2 being able to do it as well as them (at least to me) years before is impressive
Same. For me the only thing Ii end up laughing at myself over is how the graphics aged. But I remember them looking Soo good XD But to me they are still great
One game series that I often come back to is the Mass Effect trilogy. That game is a masterpiece in my opinion. Some people may see that ME1 is outdated and the gameplay is "old" but the story is still what makes it amazing. If you can accept that it's not a new game then the world that they built is truly magnificent! ME 2 and 3 plays like a more modern game so it's easier to play but still the story is there and it makes it worthwhile to play!
The trilogy as a whole is a masterpiece. Even if the ending of 3 was not that great or the story of 2 feels like a missed opportunity from ME1 story, they all still handle things very well especially 3.
@@MODDED7I’m playing the legendary edition now and I’ve never played any of them. I’m currently on ME1. I hope the other 2 games stay this good. I love the feeling I get of feeling like I’m actually in space with these characters. The atmosphere is amazing!
@@SquarePenix. Awesome! If your enjoying Mass Effect 1 that much then you'll 100% love ME2 and 3. They only get better with the gameplay and especially the music.
As a game dev being analytical about every game I play is removing part of the fun for me. I hate and love it at the same time. Great video and great content, as usual!
Yeah. As a writer, I can relate. If you want to make the best product you can, you've got to foster a brain that can see all the flaws, and understand the pieces that the whole thing is made up of. A real downside, when suspense of disbelief is so integral to enjoying them.
Same with me and music, 10 years of music education make me nitpick and analyse most things. Luckily it somehow only extends to classical music, so I can still enjoy other genres. Also, performing is still always a thrill as it is so much different from just listening
As a Game Dev, I *ESPECIALLY* reccomend you start doing challenge runs of games. It allows you to analyze all the individual choices the dev team made for PC interactions; and it massively opens your perspective on the pacing and tension/relief choices and possibilities.
@@winpvpghost not really. I still enjoy playing games and love my job. But I tend to look for new genres or new mechanics more than how I was used to. ( Finding myself scrolling pointlessly on steam trying to find something good for me is hard eheh ). Also the amount of available time is a factor to consider, as Razbuten mentioned in the video as well. Let's say it's a different perspective which removes part of the magic.
A couple years ago I wondered if Elder Scrolls Oblivion was actually as good as I remembered, because I always remembered it as more fun than Skyrim. After playing it again after like 15 years, yes it really was better than Skyrim 😌 (I did run it with a good amount of graphics mods though, but same thing for skyrim)
Yeah I had the same thoughts. I have always held Oblivion in a higher regard than Skyrim but thought it was down to nostalgia but it really is better in multiple ways I also really like the themes and fantastical nature of Oblivion more than Skyrim's Norse inspired themes
@@HL1_EP1 I made a huge mistake of a fresh playthrough for modded and not even backing up my beast character's saves. Now I don't think I have the time to build a good character again, especially with Morrowinds combat and levelling system.
@@NaN-cn5hq You can just level up to around 25, get a "Fortify Skill" spell and start getting overpowered from there. I am actually still on my first playthrough. I am going to make a "Restore Health 480 points" ring and if you fortify your enchant skill to 110 everything costs 1 point to cast so I can basically cast it 400 times. I actually love both Oblivion and Skyrim but Morrowind does a lot of things better.
There does seem to be a balance between going with the flow and enjoying an experience at face value, and scrutinizing it for any flaws, inevitably dampening or even ruining your experience. That isn't to say we shouldn't be analytical or in-depth, but we can argue ourselves into almost any position. It's like being in a relationship with someone who looks for any excuse to be miserable with their partner.
I think Infinite received the critical acclaim it did precisely because of a lack of scrutiny from games journalists. It was never deserving of that much praise, and it's taken us this long to finally start acknowledging that.
Loved infinite, came back frequently since it’s release to play it and now I hate it. Bioshock 1 and 2 have aged like a fine wine, whereas infinite has aged like a loaf of bread that was already on the turn.
Replaying a game makes you look at it analytically because you know where the story is going this time. This is why before i say a game is my absolute favourite, i replay it again or look at critiques about it good/bad and eventually play it again. I do it with all my favourite games. And it helps me to appreciate my favourite games so much more.
I played Majora's mask for the first time ever back in 2020, and its one of the few N64 games I've played, I had an absolute blast. I think what helped is that I had heard that it was good, but I wasn't engaged in the conversation so much that it got glorified, I had seen many videos critiquing it long before I played it and when I finally did I went in without a pre-conceived notion of it being god's gift to mankind
The whole Ben Drowned pasta really skewed people's ideas on how dark and creepy Termina is IMO, when it's really not THAT kind of creepy and unsettling. Yes, there's a moon set to fall within three days, but unless you talk to every NPC that doesn't do anything each day, you don't really feel the "doom is slowly approaching" vibe. It's barely any darker than Ocarina of Time was, it's just that in OoT you can't see Ganondorf taking over Hyrule because you're skipping 7 years, while in Termina you can see the moon crash down and destroy the town of you don't reset in time.
I think for newer players that’s the best route to go, go in blind or without any expectations. Not because the game is bad, but because the reason why people like me do have a lot of nostalgia and love for the game is we were kids going in blind having a blast. Replaying it with other Zelda titles every few years, I can agree with the video that it is still a wonderful game, literally she is an icon 💅, but not this superior status of game in comparison to any other wonderful game I’ve played (tbh them clunky ass controls has me raging more now than it did as a kid 😂)
@@neoqwerty I already saw a comment about it, but Jacob Gellar did a great video about how every Zelda is pretty much just as dark in a similar way. What people miss about MM because of the oversimplification of "It's the dark one" is the emotional weight of it, a lot of which comes from optional content, which is why some people, me included, feel like the side quests are just as important, if not more so, as the main quest.
@@lowlywisp7953 I'm pretty sure the "dark one" is supposed to be twilight princess, or at least the "edgy one". What works with Majora's Mask is how unfiltered it is, the NPCs literally all have different dialogues that react realistically when they know they are all about to die and can do nothing about it. Majora's Mask hurts because it feels so real, these NPCs aren't some cartoony characters like the ones in ocarina of time, they're people.
I think this holds true for all media. I'll pretty regularly go back and watch old shows, or read old books and have that thought: "why did I ever like this?" I find it sad, but also almost liberating, in a strange sort of way.
Except for Buffy. I rewatch Buffy and still love it. In fact, some of the episodes I thought were kind of crappy I now like better. The only thing I wish is that I could watch Buffy and Angel for the first time again. I wish I didn't know where the story is going.
I disagree. When I'm watching reaction videos of movies and shows that I love, I find that I love them even more because I'm consciously comparing them to the bad writing of today. So many movies today lack the setup and payoff of Back to the Future. Blockbuster action movies today lack the visceral destruction of Con Air because they don't use actual cars and explosions anymore. The fight scenes in Jackie Chan movies are better than the shaky cam and jump cut fight scenes of today.
Pretty great to be able to do this, I think a lot of us just stick by whatever feeling we had back when and refuse to accept any different analysis. Big props to the very idea of reevaluating your favs outside of nostalgia’s grip, which can be so strong.
I recently was thinking about how actually, most levels in Sonic Adventure 2 were quite bad. But because of Chao Garden, players are encouraged essentially to replay the levels they liked again and again to grind, and since you can pick which levels you play, you end up with a memory of the best parts of Sonic Adventure 2 and none of the bad parts because of that reinforcement. Really interesting video as always Raz, thanks!
This is pretty much how I felt when I went back and started replaying Sonic games a few years ago, turns out a lot of them are actually just. Not that good. Remembering the highs and forgetting that actually, two thirds of the game is boring garbage. At the same time though a few games I ended up liking a lot more just because I've gotten better at playing games in general
I'm part way through reading this and already the soundtrack is rocking inside my head, demanding my attention. You're absolutely right about the chao garden level select filtering. Why'd they ever get rid of chao garden? It was the best!
Everyone could see this as a kid really. SA2 is a terrible buggy mess with bad dialogue and dodgy controls but the Chao Garden is great. Like you literally just play the levels repeatedly for drives for your chao. Even playing on gamecube as a kid this seemed extremely apparent to me. Sonic doesn't really hide the fact that they're all bad games very well.
Yeah, and the same goes for games like Assassin's Creed for me, the atmosphere of the environments is the draw, even if the gameplay and story is just serviceable, traversing those cool environments is really, really cool
For me, a game like outer wilds is so great not specifically for the gameplay loop but because of the thought it provoked in me. it took me about a month playing on and off to finish the game but after i turned off my PC i don’t think i ever really stopped playing it, because it was always there in my mind. and it’s those memories that make the game have a special place in my heart
I look at things in a very different way. I've found that revisiting things I'm nostalgic about has often led to me better understanding them and appreciating them all the more. I feel more from an emotional movie or story after consecutively returning to it than I did the first time. But I've also been critical about everything I've consumed for as long as I can remember, so I could explain to you exactly why I find something important or not from the first time experiencing it.
This is basically exactly where I'm coming from. Revisiting two of the three specific games mentioned in this video, I loved them as much as I ever have, but I understand them better. Infinite rubs me the wrong way in certain aspects, but there's a lot there that does work and is worth celebrating.
That is exactly my experience. I can't say I've ever revisited something I enjoyed and no longer enjoy it (There are things I am more critical of now, but still enjoy overall)
"The longer I went without playing them, the better they were allowed to become." Man, that line hit *hard.* (Also love the editing in this one. Talking about memories to clips of the Animus, and faulty memories to footage of Ezio desynchronizing? 10/10)
@@robosergTV Infinite is a pretty much overrated game. Just played it after coming back to the Bioshock saga and definitely there are big flows with the narrative of the game. That said, it's stunning.
This definitely happened to me when replaying Fallout 3 some months ago, due to it being the first RPG I played back when I was 13 I held it in an extremely high regard, but replaying it I realized "Wow, the story really takes a nosedive at the end, what the fuck"
It's pretty incredible to look back at how game changing AC2 was and how it changed the gaming landscape. I tried replaying it and had the same feeling as you. The music in that game still in incredible. "Ezio's family" is one of the best and most recognizable pieces of gaming music ever composed imo
Beautiful video. I think that applies to absolutely everything - games you loved, movies, your favorite band from high school. And I love going back to them from time to time. The thing is: you should never approach something that was meaningful to you as it still should be, or if it was meant to hit you the same way it once did. Approach those things as the person that you once were, and you should be able to both enjoy the nostalgia AND appreciate how much you've changed.
I played the trilogy for the first time a year ago. Liked 1 and definitely respect its legendary status, but I loved the sequel way way more and I was shocked it was disliked at the time! And I played Infinite and felt exactly the way Raz did here.
I played them all and was really disappointed. 2 was the most fun mechanically but I didn't really like any of them that much. Also am playing through System Shock 2 for the first time and it & Prey 2017 CLEAR bioshock
@@ImGonnaFudgeThatFish The first BioShock, like the first Knights of the Old Republic, definitely gets by to some extent on how people felt about its plot twist back in the day. And then both got better direct sequels, developed by different studios, that weren't really appreciated at the time.
"The flow of time is always cruel... Its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that doesn't change with time is a memory of younger days." E: But honestly, my experience with Majora's Mask is the exact opposite. Apparently I had some issues with anxiety and panic attacks as a little kid, and the imminent doom of that moon did not motivate me in the right way at all. Also didn't help that I never found the song of slow time. But I got an N64 just to play it at one of my low points after I dropped out of college. And it was one of the most formative gaming journeys I've ever had. You know how everybody's made a Dark souls saved me video? That was Majora's Mask for me. The moment you first get to the *spoiler* and the questions the four *spoilers* ask you are still etched into my brain like nothing else.
I recently played Bioshock Infinite for the first time and while I easily recognized what the story lacked I did appreciate what was there. I am also very aware that the glorification of experiences in the past is very common because you experience it with the person you were then, and in some cases we're talking about a 10-15 years younger version of yourself. So in my experience it is usually enough to curb your expectations based on knowing this will be the case and enjoy the older titles both for what they were for you then and how you experience them now.
I was hugely moved by Infinite at the time. I was at a low point and one of its themes (chasing a ghost of redemption) hit me really hard. I appreciate your critical take. As much as I want to replay it, I think I'll keep it as a fond memory.
This is really interesting because it's a conversation I've had with my best friend many times. I regularly go back to play my favorite games while he hates doing it because he often times ends up hating them. For me I appreciate having an up-to-date understanding of my favorites, but I also tend to be more forgiving of older games because I understand the context they were released in.
A very interesting idea. I find that many times when I try to replay a game, I simply don't finish. In 9/10 cases, the magic isn't there for me anymore. When the mystery is gone, there's no hook to keep me playing through the whole experience.
For similar reasons I tend to find the start of a game the most fun. I have replayed the first bit of botw, Hollow Knight, Skyrim and others quite a couple of times, but it loses its charm partway through. Only giving myself additional tasks or challenges can keep me going a bit longer (specific weapon sets in BotW or Steel Soul in Hollow Knight for example)
I feel like that's a part of the storytelling (through both writing and through the experience itself) that we just gotta accept. Some magic is gonna disappear as the magic trick is explained. While some works can be enjoyed again and again due to "timeless" values (beautiful painting, nice action scenes, great music,...), exploration and mystery still drive us humans most strongly after all.
bioshock infinite is probably my most replayed game ever. i have about 200 hours of playtime in this game and i still come back for another round every year.
You don't know how happy this makes me. I replayed the sly trilogy and it still had that magic even though I knew everything coming at me. I also played/replayed ocarina of time again. Both still were amazing experiences and while I know they aren't perfect. As an adult, I'm patient with flaws because I know that nothing will be perfect. There are games ill never replay. Heck I don't have time to play new games coming out. But when I have that weekend and I just want to crush through something, it's still great and knowing it's not just my nostalgia makes it that much better.
Nothing has been lost if you can still remember how a game made you feel originally even if you don't feel the same way when you play it now. The fact that it amazed you once will never change. No longer being amazed by it doesn't retroactively override your previous experience with it.
I love infinite, even replayed recently and still liked it. I do not remember it being received as well as you said though I agree with your criticisms of it too, it's just a special game to me
Yeah for sure it was not all that rosy back in the day. Maybe the critics praised it and it must have been a solid 8/10 but on Reddit and such there was a LOT of valid critique towards the metaphysics and the faux-philosophical nature of the game. Plus most considered, and still considers Bioshock 1 the better, definitive Bioshock experience. Despite its flaws, the way it's doing things that nobody has even tried to replicate I think still elevates Infinite to a special status. It was like this way back, and still is.
@@ztsb_koneko it’s funny because I just played them all for the first time without knowing any of the discourse around the games and it feels like Bioshock 1 might be remembered by most with rose colored glasses haha. They were all great games and I loved them for different reasons. The first game puts you in a world that is so interesting and unique, the second perfects the gameplay of the first game and honestly makes it hard to go back, and infinite hits you with a completely new world and a more emotional story. I am not one to get up in arms because the many worlds theory in infinite isn’t logically sound though. I think it’s a little silly to pick apart a story of a fast paced shooter and complain when it isn’t airtight. I loved the game and story.
My memory of the game was it getting trashed for being a senseless mess with no rhyme or reason to the plot and no way to understand or predict any of the twist the "came out of nowhere", then going through and predicting every single major twist within the first handful of levels based primarily on the environmental storytelling of the lighthouse and the "this time" talking of the mysterious twins.
@@ztsb_koneko don’t really get the back half of your message here. Nobody tried to make Infinite because 1) all of the criticisms you laid out were apparent to most and 2) it was the third and final game in an extremely specific series with a “house style” and 3) it was one of the last years of gaming that you could actually put out a prestige-drama game flooded with combat sections and still get critical reception for it. I mean Dishonored released a year prior and is significantly better in world and gameplay design. Two years later we get Witcher 3 which makes Infinite seem almost childish in comparison. A year after Infinite releases we have the great Dark Souls revenge tour where its greatness is becoming a mainstream revelation. And like Raz said, TLOU came out later the same year and basically changed AAA gaming forever. Why would anyone pick to follow Infinite’s legacy when the entire industry was already moving past it, onto bigger and more sophisticated things? The fact of the matter is that Infinite was not something new and breathtaking. It was a farewell tour of a decidedly post-Half-Life-2 style of forced perspective prestige narrative shooter that was actively dying off.
I had the opposite experience with BioShock Infinite. I just recently played it for the first time, and I loved it! It's actually my favorite BioShock game, and I'd go as far as to say that it helped me appreciate the series even more! I think it was the perfect send-off to the Ken Levine trilogy. Best of luck to Cloud Chamber Studios for BioShock 4, they've got massive Big Daddy shoes to fill.
Sometime back in 2016 or so, I was milling about in a gamestop trying to decide between spending my 20 bucks on Bioshock Infinite or Dark Souls. I ended up talking with a couple of the employees about the choice and asked which one they thought I should get and they both instantly said Dark Souls. Having played both now I can absolutely see why.
I literally had this same experience upon replaying Bioshock Infinite recently, so I’m glad I’m not the only one. It’s strange how some games just are better played once, really intriguing topic as always! Personally I find it’s better to vicariously play games again by watching someone else do it. That’s how I started watching Joseph Anderson’s streams for Outer Wilds! (Yes I see you in chat ❤)
No such thing as a wrong opinion. Bioshock Infinite still holds a place in my heart but it certainly had some flaws, and the 180 plot twists weren't well explored enough on Daisy, Luteces, and Burial at Sea for me to not have a bad taste in my mouth about them. But the Comstock twist certainly stuck with me.
the conclusion + message of this video caught me off guard with its thoughtfulness and refusal to pick one side of this false dichotomy we often put on ourselves when it comes to media analysis. this was heartening and made me a little emotional, thank you
BioShock games are like their premise. They look awe inspiring on the outside, but the more you get familiar with them the more everything just seems off. Glad some people are finally coming around to that
I had a similar experience with some movies and TV shows (Friends went from one of my favorite shows to barely giving me a single chuckle per episode), but I don't see it as bad. It's a part of growing up and for every disappointment, there are several artworks which I appreciate way more on rewatch/replay. Those which stand the test of time and reveal hidden depths are the truly great ones.
Shadow of the Colossus came to mind many times while watching this. That game has lived in my mind as an unbelievably amazing title and any time I've replayed it has lived up to that. Love that game so much
You see, I played that game around the time of its release because of all the rave reviews. The colossus fights were a very interesting and unique mechanic, but there was so much in between those that was incredibly boring and pointless. Just vast stretches of empty land and it ruined the appeal of what the game excelled at. I never understood how people held that game in such high regard, but I really wanted to.
@@Amins88 Its because the build up to Avion who is the 5th boss is one of the greatest in gaming history and the really subtle details the game puts into its story telling and how it let's us come up with our own interpretations.
@@Amins88 Because some people appreciate the use of quiet reflection. There's a place for permanent unending action, but the point of the open world game is that your setting isn't just slices of time sewn together, but showing that there is an underlying setting that holds it all together. Just like GTA has huge stretches of time between missions (though I feel Rockstar has the same issues you're talking about, where the openness and lack of video game conveniences can be really excessive at times), SotC creates a contrast between violent action set pieces and quiet environment. Without the space in-between, the tension of finding the Colossi and preparation exploring it's environment, it would be a fairly straightforward action game with a neat climbing mechanic. Instead, all of the game fits together more neatly, as opposed to random disconnected biomes, and you aren't constantly forced into some sort of UI to get around. It's fine to not enjoy SotC, but the issue you're talking about is the fundamental concept behind every open world game or RPG, where they're more than just one thing ad nauseam. Just in this case, it's less busy town, and more environmental.
@@AusSP The quiet moments between are important, but SotC had absolutely nothing engaging there. GTA has a living, breathing world to experience. Breath of the Wild has a beautiful landscape to interact with in countless different ways. SotC has a giant bland field to gallop across. I don't need enemies to fight or things to collect. I just need an engaging world to exist in. And that game's world just felt like an unfinished asset. At least from what I experienced before I gave up out of boredom after three bosses.
The most heartbreaking part about Bioshock Infinite is the ending. Not because of what actually happens in it, but because it opened the door to the franchise becoming a great anthology series. "There's always a man, there's always a lighthouse, there's always a city." Then the DLC slammed that door shut and the studio went under.
I wish we could return to rapture 🥲 imagine a modern graphics rapture with a whole new story.. maybe even a different parallel universe rapture where things happen differently. Maybe even a rapture that takes place in the 70as or 80s or 90s. See how far the tech advanced in rapture would've cool.
@@randybobandy9828 I'd be a bit worried if Bioshock 4 was in Rapture, because in all the universes, where anything is possible, I'd be a little bit disappointed if it chose the same place 2.5 games were in. Of all the places they could envision, there are so many rich unexplored things out there - whether American, or British or French or whatever.
I also loved Bioshock Infinite and, at the time, it belonged to the trifecta of 'Daddening' video games with a heavy story focus: Bioshock Infinite, Telltale's The Walking Dead and the Last of Us. In all three you play the gruff male hero whose story revolves around protecting the young daughter figure. I wonder how well the others hold up and how an intertextual reading with a retrospective of that specific time of the early 2010s would turn out
"a retrospective of that specific time of the early 2010s" bruh you must be 12 10 years isn't enough time for an entire analysis of how human culture changed
Walking Dead Season 1 is still a fantastically written and emotional story. The gameplay is super annoying, but it was on release as well. The important difference between this and Infinite is that Infinite's story was never as good as it should have been and it a masterclass in how not to write a plot, whereas the walking dead only has the one thing going for it, so they made it matter.
I started to become more critical to older games I loved when I started to study game design and working as a game dev, I was so focused on analyzing every single detail and it ruined a couple of games for me too. But recently I tried to play games in the context of the time of release, like, what did they do that was awesome and not seen before, and I try to appreciate what the game offers, it's a hard mindset to change.
It's hard to change because you are critical of your view. To be honest, I don't ever view games made back in that year, but try to enjoy what it is instead.
Replaying Assassin's Creed 2 broke my heart. I realized I will never feel the wonder of exploring Renaissance Italy ever again (at least not in the same way). I miss that.
In a weird way before I replayed the Ezio trilogy again I thought that the first was the best, Brotherhood fun, and Revelation was alright, after I replayed them I enjoyed Brotherhood and the first one the least, Revelations is now my favorite and I feel it’s because I vibe more with older Ezio
I was so disappointed at BioShock not being System Shock 3, that I never got around to actually playing any of the games. Perhaps I will, one day. One of the things I enjoy is actually going back and discovering old games that I never played when they were released. I didn't play Super Metroid until a decade after its release, for example, but it was a great experience regardless. So I'm in no rush to play all the games. The passing of time, and evolution of games in general, may actually allow me to experience old games in a more "timeless" manner.
5:49 i absolutely love this moment of your script, great storytelling, reminded me of cinematography and how to keep pace, interest and subverting expectacions while keeping suspense or keeping the viewers attention or even increasing their concentration on what you are going to show/say. im gonna watch more of your videos now, if the topic interests me or not does not matter, i simply enjoy your way of storytelling. (edited a typo)
The Ezio trilogy remains in a special place in my heart. Played it when Xbox 360 was still around, when I was a child and hadn't faced some stuff that changed me as a person. It was when I was still just a child, who was having fun playing around, putting on a hoodie and pretended I was part of the creed. Sometimes I miss that time, and it's why it still is special to me. I won't try to change it, and even though I've wanted to replay it, I think it's best to leave it as a memory and love letter to my childhood. Treasure what you had and what you have, time is always running.
Things this made me think about: 1. You're focused in this video on the downside of changing as a person and growing to be more critical in how you approach games, but the opposite is almost certainly true. Games you could not have hoped to grasp the value of at the time are almost certainly waiting to be seen by you with new eyes. 2. I think the memory you have of those old games is still valuable, especially if you are a game developer yourself. Discovering that Bioshock Infinite isn't the game you thought it was leaves the door open for someone to develop that game you thought you remembered. 3. Even after having updated your takes on a game that was once important to you, you still have those memories of how and why it was important to you then. Nothing takes that away from you. I have a lot of games that were super important to me years ago that I would warn any friend I had off playing for the first time (lookin' at you, Soul Reaver!) Does this mean I feel like my memories of the supreme importance Soul Reaver held for me around its launch belong in the trash now? No. It just means I'm not going to benefit from further playthroughs. That's ok.
@@mcgoldenblade4765 I don't think he's wrong for having experienced it this way. It hits a person in waves just how impermanent the world is, even yourself. The way we talk about the world and ourselves leaves a false impression of permanence and the shock that comes from realizing it ain't so is not so unlike the moment when kids realize someday their mom will die. The idea that you will only be you as you currently understand yourself at most for like a decade is weird and confusing until you've done it enough times.
@@paxtenebrae I totally understand. I just think it's way too easy to focus on the negatives of change and growing up. We focus too much on the things we've lost than the things we've gained. I don't blame anyone who thinks that way, I just think it's important to have that different perspective.
Really good comment. Number 3 was my thought exactly when I watched the first third and Number 1 comes to my mind when I think of my recent Super Mario Galaxy replay. It is great to see a game you enjoyed as a child and can applause the game design later on when you have developed a more analytical look with more game experience to compare to.
Some things are meant as a once in a lifetime journey and/or experience. Certain games and other forms of media fall under this category as well. Prime example would be the original Mass Effect trilogy, which I played about almost a decade after they first released. That journey, with *MY* specific Shepard, created so many beautiful and painful memories, that I will forever cherish them in the way I first (originally) experienced them. That is why I will never replay that trilogy, even though it was one of the most impactful media/cultural experiences I’ve ever had. Replaying it would not only diminish the fun and ‘’wow factor’’, but it would also destroy all those precious *original* memories. Sometimes it is better to reminisce the original moment, instead of trying to recreate that ‘’same’’ experience at a later point in time.
To each his own but I also disagree with the sentiment. Over the years I've replayed through the trilogy at least a dozen times and each playthrough was different, changing your gender makes a difference, who you romance can change your outlook, your background can change your views, the specific event that made you "famous" as well, and of course paragon/renegade system. And all that without even mentioning the 6 different classes that completely change your gameplay. The entire trilogy is one of the most replayable games I've had the pleasure of experiencing.
I found that all the games I still love, that I played a long time ago are games that aren't story driven. The Sims 2, Titan Quest and Morrowind are all games I go back to from time to time and still massively enjoy them. The exploration and freedom in what I can do with my characters is still fun and I end up putting many hours into those games every couple of years.
That suggests John Carmack was right about stories in games. I’ve always agreed with him. Except The Last of Us, I can’t think of a game that I’ve liked because of its story, and that was ruined with the sequel. I also haven’t replayed it, as I’ve had a desire to do so, and that’s not because of the sequel.
@NoNameAtAll2 bc sims 2 is great?? Like, don't get me wrong, Sims 3 is also fantastic, but like... sims 2 is so quirky and fun. I'm not the original commenter, but I play Sims 2 often, especially because it was a childhood game I used to play often. I didn't play Sims 3 at all as a kid due to a variety of reasons, so I never got that nostalgic attachment to it. I'm sorry if my comment comes across as rude or uncalled for, I just sorta don't understand this idea that Sims 3 is basically... the only sims game worth playing. Sims 2 is a good game. That's probably why the original commenter is playing it. Plus like, nostalgia.
@@BeeTeaBoi having played both 2 and 3, I feel like 3 is direct continuation of progress where 2 was good, 3 is great where 2 puts limits, 3 opens wide world for you I know sims 1 is cherished because it was about building the house, first and foremost. With later games moving focus onto characters themselves and 4 has been a large regression both in performance and abilities but 3 being 2++ makes 2 odd choice other than nostalgia, which covers and explains everything, for it is good
Its ok to acknowledge how much you loved a game back in the day and how great it is based on that while also admitting it isn't as fun to play nowadays. Both things can be true. Appreciate your memories for what they are. Just memories.
This entire video is like people saying Seinfeld is boring and uncreative. Like, yeah, it seems that way 30 years after it was groundbreaking. Like Majora's Mask
Funny enough I had the exact oposit reaction with OoT and MM. Replaying OoT I still felt like it's a good game but it pulled me in way less because of how many games after it tried to emulate it. With MM I still had the same feeling of wonder and that weird creepy feeling you get from playing it. I guess it's because MM was and is a special game in the way it plays and feels.
Same here! Playing OoT feels like homework to me now. The game is very tedious in how it has no real mechanics, everything is just waiting for an opening with zero player agency. MM I've replayed many times in my teens, my 20s, and my 30s, and it still always fills me with excitement. The controla definitely are *a thing* sometimes, but everything else about the game is so great that I've always been able to look past it.
Yeah OoT just feels so basic. For anyone who played Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess first it doesn't really bring anything new to the table. I find its level and world design especially weak, and as I typically find the core appeal of a game to be exploring its environments it really kills the experience.
don't get mad at me
also, one thing I wish I would have dove into is how for some games it is easy for me to look back at the memory of playing a game and hold onto that regardless of if I still enjoy playing it today, but for others (like the three games I talk about in this video) I can't seem to hold onto that initial memory as well and start to sour on the game as a whole. I have not thought about it enough to have an answer as to why that is. I touch on it a tiny bit when talking about games that you can't truly replay and how you go into replaying those with the mindset that a new playthrough isn't designed to be the same, but I think there is a ton more in that space to explore, especially considering that there are games that I think suck to play now that are highly replayable, yet I don't have the same sour feeling towards them as I do towards these three. Could be something about the game, could be my mindset when I replayed them, could be the strength of the original memory when I played it, could be all of these things and more.
oh and one other thing I wish I would have done a bit differently was how I talked about Majora's Mask. I stand by all of my thoughts on how the game didn't hit for me on my most recent playthrough, but I think I presented it as if a switch had flipped and that the game means nothing to me now when that is not the case. The more accurate view is that when replaying it, I just could tell that if this was a game I kept coming back to, eventually the good memories I had of it (whether those be from when I played the game or was just obsessed with hearing about it) would be replaced by my more current lukewarm feelings on it, so I have decided that in order to preserve what love I still have for MM, I am better off not playing it anymore lol.
anyway, have a good one.
What if I do?
Grrr
👹👹👹👺👿👿🤬🤬😡😡😡
What is mad?
@@Wadam101 yeah what if you do?? I wanna know too
I remember once hearing that people don’t want to play the game that they once played. They want to play the game that they remember.
Yea, this is one of my strong reasons to dislike most retro re-release (or new games trying to emulate retro feels) without modern QoL rework.
Nope, play Souls games
@@Walamonga1313 Even in souls, a second playthrough will never be the same as the first. You will be more aware of your surroundings, ambushes and suprise tactics will be less effective, you will have a general idea of where to go, etc. That magic of exploring an unknown world will be lessened considerably.
If the game is good,it's good end of discussion,i could only apply that logic to visuals of the game,or maybe if the game is somehow connected to how i felt at that time,being younger,in love,seeing world with different eyes there are many reasons,but what i'm trying to say is i came back and replayed many games and i still think they are awesome,i played infinite at launch,and it never clicked with me,just pointing one game as example (if you like it,you like it no problem with that) but to me that game was not Bioshock,just like Bioshock was not system shock to it's fans,to many differences in gameplay,limiting weapons to two,redundant and nonsense story end.
@@FLXEP alot of qol takes away from the retro vibe. If you need qol then YOU dont need to play the re release.
ok awesome video, very insightful as usual, great points were made, but have you considered that majora's mask is actually still the GOAT and you're wrong
U tryna throw shade on my boy OoT?
Heard he tried 10 more majora's mask like games and they just didn't pan out either
I knew Iron Pineapple was based, BUT NOT THIS BASED. YOUR RIGHT. IT IS THE GOAT
OoT might be more replayable, but MM is and will always be the better game.
@kaleb roark Agreed, I definately like the idea of MM better, the story was great the combat improvements were fun, but one complete playthrough is all I can put myself through, whereas I continually replay OoT.
It’s not necessarily the game you want to replay. It’s that part of life that you want to relive.
Ouch, that hit hard.
It's like getting back together with an ex. You only remember the roses, but not the thorns.
That's why I'm not hyped about the New Final Fantasy XVI. I used to play final fantasy with my friend. He stopped playing them after 13, so I can't talk about them with him anymore
I think that's a really good way of putting it. When I replayed the Ezio trilogy last week all I could actually think about were my memories as a teenager where I just burned through each release again and again and again. I remembered what houses I lived in for each game, what I was worried about, things I might have had planned, friends I had who enjoyed the games too.
Yup
I feel like Prince of Persia would like to chat about who invented the "run on walls and climb buildings looking cool as heck gameplay"
This is one franchise I could see myself not loving as much in retrospect. At the time, those games were pretty much my absolute favorites. I can remember them being the games that got me into story telling in games. The narrative was hugely eye opening for me. I actually picked them up on steam not too long ago, and I am a little anxious about how I'll like them whenever I play them again.
@@AzureViking I picked up sands of time recently and it's actually still a really smooth experience that I think holds up. The combat is still meh but the running on walls and platforming still feels really good, and if anything I appreciated the characters more. Never realized how much of an elitest prick the prince was and how that's basically the point of it, when I was younger I thought he was just a cool charming adventurer
As a kid, I usually assumed that hard games were hard because I was a kid and needed to get better. As an adult, there a several games that I can't go back to because I now know they're hard for other reasons, such as poor controls.
This is why my tastes changed to love walking sims, they can be so relaxing when done right
Poor controls are what you call game that's actually unique. Back in my day games like Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, WWF War Zone, required you to learn new ways to play and once I mastered them it was a lot more fun. But then the crybabies come and bitch about controls and so now everything feels the same. Yay thanks society. Now I feel like I played every game 100 times
@@I_Am_The_Social_Reject we are the cry babies? Really the way i see it you are the one crying because some folks don't like your childhood games, you guys love to throw the "back in my day argument" like we give a shit
in the industry, that's called a skill issue
@@Fojabass just say you don't compute and move on kid
I have often felt this way about books. I sometimes miss the days when I was a kid before I developed "taste." When I could just pick up any chapter book at the grocery store book rack and enjoy reading it for what it was. Now before I commit to buying a book I have to go online and read a dozen opinions on whether or not it was "worth" reading.
Maybe that has to do with using money that you may think is more important for something else, in a way you can't afford to buy something bad because you don't know when the next one may be, at least it's what happens to me.
Time is more important than the money. It hurts to expend time on unfulfilling activities. A bad book or game is still a novel experience when you are young. It's tedious to experience the same type of bad repeatedly.
I can still do that. All you need to do is throw your standards out the window and have no expectations, or even negative ones.
Honestly I feel I appreciate media more after having developed taste. Like, sure, I don't blindly enjoy every single movie/book I pick up. But the ones I do, I can gush about why they're so good and get genuinely excited when someone else has seen the same thing. I also genuinely like discussing media (talking about Black Panther 2 was a lot more fun than actually watching it), which I feel I wouldn't be able to do if I weren't the way I am now. It's all about perspectives I guess.
You don't know my pain when dealing with the "Forgotten Realms' books back in the 90's.. Too many books already and some out of print. I was hesitant to get into that series because I knew I'd never get all the books ;(
I think the reason games such as outer wilds and BotW seem like they will be more resilient to this isn't because they are made in a way to prevent this from happening, but because they are made in a way to pretty much guarantee this happens. The awe and wonder you experience in the first playthrough is immediately gone on any subsequent playthrough no matter how long its been since your first one. Whenever you go back to it, you are not playing the same game because your first playthrough WAS the game. And you know this going in when replaying it so it helps to remove disappointment.
Basically what happened with elden ring😂
I've always considered both of those games to be less going to locations to complete a goal, task, whatever and more the act of travel itself. Like I still don't engage much with BotW combat after 200 hours, I'm perfectly good at it and have a nice collection of lynel bows etc. but to me the core gameplay was always picking a landmark or direction to go towards, figuring out how to scale a tall cliff, where to light a campfire to wait through the night etc. The gameplay IS the exploring and the adventure, it's almost entirely movement and mechanics and doesn't need to serve a story or gameplay purpose so I feel like it holds up better than a game which treats the destinations, enemies and rigid pathways as the focus.
I even feel it with Skyrim, exploring a ruin is basically 15 minutes of holding W followed by a dungeon that might not hold up now so may games have done them better. You travel through the world but only to reach the real goal, which might not age as well as the world itself
@@helplmchoking I think you’re onto something. It’s kind of like people create different meta-games that influence how they view and play them. Your meta-game for BoTW is more like mine but Raz’s seems quite different. Speed-runners clearly have an entirely different one. And depending on that meta, the game’s lifespan will vary. Mine has given me around a thousand hours (and still playing it) but someone like Limcube has managed to have fun for 6000 hours (and build a career).
I've not played outer wilds myself, but I've found that replaying breath of the wild had its own appeal. Nothing will ever live up to the first time, but going into the world and knowing whats going on, as well as being significantly more skilled, allows you to experience the game in a way different to the first time.
1000 hours into BotW, can confirm it doesn't have this problem.
One thing that will never change is how damn good the music for Bioshock Infinite is
game is still good, this dude is buggin
I revisit that quartet version of "god only knows" at least 3 times a year.
I think the story was muddled and the middle of infinite was messy/boring. But that music has aged like wine.
@@Sk8forsocks It sucked then, and it sucks now. You'll grow up and figure it out one day.
@@a70turbo lil bro makes minecraft videos and has the audacity to talk about “growing up”. Man if you’re too room temperature iq to understand the game its fine.
@@Sk8forsocks Seethe and cope, fangirl. If you want a good Bioshock game, play the first two.
never have I felt more vindicated than you bringing up the problems with AC2, not just because I agree with it, but because I thought I was going crazy after revisiting it recently and absolutely not enjoying it as much as I used to
Oh my god look it's JoCat the incredible, famous and handsome animator
AC2 is extremely hard to play after you already played AC: Brotherhood. It's just an improvement in every way.
@@TheKarabanera Definitely disagree, the map of Brotherhood really lacks that variety of urban environments that the previous two had. Just the fact that about 3/4 of the game is just countryside with few houses and small buildings thrown around makes it far less enjoyable to navigate than AC2.
I was worried I would feel the same way about AC4 as I did AC2. I have some nostalgia for AC2, but nothing like I do for AC4. Seeing how clunky AC2 was after all these years made me worry that I would feel the same disappointment for AC4. Replaying it recently, while there are a lot of issues typical of Ubisoft titles, I had a blast with AC4. The game still looked really good, the music was great, the ship gameplay is still as awesome as it was a decade ago etc.. Even the real world animus segments didn't bother me that much compared to the other games. Heavily flawed, especially with those godforsaken escort/trailing missions, but still a fun time.
and I didn't play AC2 before so when I tried it a year ago, (cuz obviously everywhere I saw people worshipping it) I thought there must be something wrong with me as it's not AT ALL better than later ACs
I work in sales and one of the things that has stuck with me from my old boss is that ‘customers will remember how they FELT when they were with you, but they won’t remember what happened’. This advice has helped me so much and I think a similar logic applies here.
Some customers do have simply freakish memories, tbf! 😂😂
I’m a new manager and I’m gonna share those wise words with my team. Thanks for sharing :)
That’s actually a really wise saying I wonder how true it is. It’d be cool if they’d do a study on this but that does not seem feasible lol
"Customers will remember how they FELT when they were with you, buy they won't remember what happened."
I really do have a mind in the gutter sometimes.
@@Torthrodhel haha it probably applies to all trades tbf
I think it's important to remember, even as you feel loss over your experience with these titles, it just proves that art is alive. While technically unchanging, the idea that you can come back to something and understand it differently, for better or for worse, is part of that life.
It's the exciting thing about putting things out in the world. But also the extremely sad thing about how difficult it is to play older games due to lackluster preservation for many of them.
It's what keeps creativity alive, I guess. No art can be perfect and the games that might have been a totally unique experience we'd never expected, or combined elements into the perfect combination for what we wanted, or just made such an emotional impact, don't stay perfect to us. We understand different things, value different experiences and play different ways through time so it's only natural that we seek out different experiences
Farcry 3 just doesn’t hit the same 10 years later. Still a great game but not how I remember it. Sometimes we should keep the rose-colored glasses on.
@@xxXDrAwesomeXxx Should we? I think we can learn more from being disappointed than fully satisfied because we can ask, what was I expecting? And go on to make or consume art that fills that need instead. And, of course, the most loving thing you can do to art is let it be.
not really, videogames are atrocious in current year.
I actually have the opposite reaction to OoT and MM. Trying to replay OoT I almost always come away disillusioned. The one exception being the first time I played Master Quest. But Majora's Mask I adore returning to. Part of it is that MM has what I find to be a deeply alluring replayability hook- since I know where all the masks are, I start planning out routes for each three days to try to optimize my playthrough. Not really a speedrun, more just to avoid downtime. But it's actually really engaging and a form of gameplay that is very rare, perhape unique.
One thing that I feel is rarely talked about in MM is movement. I grew up primarily playing platformers, and the way Link moves in typical Zelda games felt so slow and limited, and it delayed my eventual embrace of the franchise. But in MM, you have Epona like in OoT. Then you have the bunny ears, you can barrel across terrain with the Goron, you have amazing swimming that the franchise is deathly afraid of giving us ever again (even in this game's remake), the Deku gives you bursts of speed, floating, and skipping, and you can make ice platforms.
I find it really appealing to return to again and again when you can change up the mundane task of getting from here to there so much.
I've been playing Majora's Mask for like 15 years, and every time I replay it I enjoy it on a deeper level. It really has a lot going for it, even if it is jank.
I tried to replay OoT recently and I found the pacing to be far slower than what I remembered. It felt like it took ages between finishing the Deku Tree and starting Dodongo's Cavern.
@@KirstyBabait ain't that janky
The Pikmin Zelda game
You know it's a special game when you replay it years later and it's even better than you remembered.
red dead redemption 2
Heroes of might and magic III for me. Love it more and more every day.
For me - Zelda Ocarina of Time, Half Life 2, Deus Ex Human Revolution AND Mankind Divided and uh... Tetris?
world of warcraft vanilla
*Jedi Academy.*
I think it's always good to remember that even if you don't like a game you used to love after a later playthrough, that will never take away from the enjoyment you had during that 1st playthrough. It's already in the past so it is set in stone.
Sure but it can absolutely change how you view that title
@@Huckle15in the present, not how you viewed it in the past. That’s his point
Exactly. I tried to go check EverQuest out again over the years, and goddamn is the game clunky as hell
@@gregoryford2532 The experience itself will never change, only the memory of it. Once you had that enjoyment in the past, time can ruin the memory of it but never the actual experience of it as it's locked in time.
I think all of this is why I love video game music so much - sure, it's not the interactive part, but it's the part that can keep the memories and emotions intact even if the gameplay or story doesn't hit the same anymore. Also, really feel that part about needing to look at games more analytically, which is why I love every time a game comes around that breaks through the barrier and DOES just immerse me in the spectacle.
You were probably listening to Rumbleverse music as you were writing this
It's so weird like I listen to super Mario sunshine music and I just have this strong sense of nostalgia, comfort, and joy. I imagine me playing the game and jumping around isle Delfino. Then I recently played the game and I didn't enjoy it at all and was just finding it frustrating. Then I just listened to the music on its own and then felt those same cozy feelings. I want to go back to an emotion.
I agree, the soundtrack in battlefield 1 and V are so good, they really are the best soundtracks in any video game
Exactly. This. I mostly never replay games but I listen to their soundtracks a lot to relive those memories.
I reckon you're on the money there. All the games from my childhood (GT4, GTA:SA, NFS undergorund 1/2/Most wanted) have music that is consdiered iconic to me, anyone else's opinion be damned
I think an important factor that you didn't mention is that your intentions for playing vs replaying the games are different. When you play the game for the first time you are just trying to… have fun and experience it. Maybe there was some hype around it but you are mostly approaching a new piece of content with a fresh mind. When you replay games though, especially in your case, it seems like you are trying to validate some ideas, and hunting for the "oh wow this was great" moment, which I think colors your perception of the game. You can already see the twists coming, you already know the plot, and you are kind of looking for what you didn't know before, or reaffirming certain built-up ideas of the game.
You already mentioned games like Outer Wilds aren't designed to be replayed but I don't see how games like Majora's Mask are different and it seems like an arbitrary distinction. I personally don't get this whole replayable shtick that gamers / reviewers start to demand of single player games as I find that they lead to unnecessarily needpicky criticisms (e.g. even Outer Wilds sees that criticism sometimes). That's literally not the point of these games! People can play roguelike for example for replayability. But yes unfortunately we will never be able to wipe our memories to try to evaluate a game in 2023 with a fresh mind if we have already played it before.
But yes, some games definitely age more poorly than others. For the memory aspect of it, a funny thing is I think for two of my favorite games (Outer Wilds and The Witness), I didn't actually enjoy them *that* much while playing them. It's only near the end, and also thinking more about them and reading what others were saying that I started to build more appreciation. Does that mean they were bad games though? I think even if the grind was a little tough and unenjoyable (e.g. The Witness had some tough puzzles that stumped me), the post-game analysis and thoughts were part of playing the game as well.
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug, and revisiting what you were nostalgic for can be a hell of a hangover.
I love this analogy so much. It's perfect
Cool well I'll just be over here chasing the dragon anyways.
Nostalgia rarely exists in my experience. If a game was good back then it's still good today as long as you play it right. (Don't play old games on an LCD)
This is why every game in my "best" list are games i have played several times in different points in my life. That makes those games actually grow with me.
What games are those if I may ask?
I want to know too
We need a list man
Yesss please
If it doesn't hold up when you're 100 years old, then it never was that great to begin with, you were just young and stupid.
Thankfully every single one of my childhood games aged like fine wine and holds up well to this day (no i wont verify this for myself)
My favorite game as a kid was kingdom hearts two, and I went back to it and liked it even more lol
@@gabagoooby Completely agree with you!
I replayed that game to death as a kid and it's still my favorite game.
@@gabagooobythat's why its a true masterpiece, it still holds up almost 20 years later!
i play morrowind every year and i only love it more and more lol
Resident evil 4 still holds up
this video makes me appreciate super mario galaxy so much more. its my favorite game of all time, and i replay it atleast once a year if not multiple times, and it never gets old for me. i consider it one of the most finely crafted experiences in gaming.
My favorite game from my childhood. Absolutely correct in saying it's one of the greatest games of all time.
I just want to take a moment to say thank you for adding proper subtitles! It means a lot to those of us who rely on subtitles to fully understand and enjoy the video. It's appreciated. Thank you.
Seconded. I'm always really pleasantly surprised when I turn on the subtitles and they're... you know, actual real subtitles. Love to see it.
@@AliceDiableaux I have the same issue with shows I watch, the subtitles are either wildly wrong or un synced to the video by a minute (either fast or slow, toss up between the two depending on how the app feels I guess)
Iirc TH-cam defaults to no CC, makes me wonder how many creators aren't aware of it, becuase I can't think of anyone thinking "I'm not going to click the CC box because fuck people who want CC". I can only imagine it's unknown.
Chiming in with the same thing. I'm not hard of hearing but I'm autistic enough to have always watched everything with subs, ever since I was a kid. I can definitely process what I'm hearing better with subs, and relying on CC's gets things across just fine generally, but it's always nice to see people make the effort, especially considering people who actually *are* hard of hearing.
@@themurderofcoke You have to manually type in the closed captions you don't just "click the CC box"
I think most of what you experienced with these games comes down to nostalgia shock. If you play them for a couple of minutes every once in a while, instead of idealize them, you slowly cement your opinion of them in a more realistic and mature way.
I replay my faves every once in a while for maybe an hour or so and this gradually reconciles the negatives while solidifying the positives in a realistic way. One commenter said that you don't miss the game as much as you miss the time you played, and that becomes true if the games live only in your distant memories , but if you keep playing, you bring the game to the present, giving it a fair look at its positives and negatives.
This is destiny 1 fr
This is a good point. Two of my favourite games, dark souls and metroid prime 2, I reply every year or two and I'm never sad or dissapointed by them and that truly might be because I play them so frequently
Gaming is about experiences, and experiences cannot be replicated
Me with Oblivion. Whenever I start to feel nostalgic for it I bring it out and replay it.
Just to remind me of that sweet sweet jank
I don’t play games much but I do love shows and for me my favorites have stayed my favorites so far. Some of them are a little harder to rewatch than others but the reason I love them is because I’m always drawn back to them
I deadass was so moved by Infinite, I quit a dead end job out of the blue. I was cleaning some disgusting gutter in the floor of a kitchen of a restaurant while listening to ‘will the circle be unbroken” and had enough. Worked out well for me
@@donsolo7860 It's a Saturday night and this is how you're spending it? Sad. I doubled my earnings when I left and I'm around 5x now maybe more. That restaurant is gone.
@grumpygrump that's great to hear man. Hope there's many more great things to come for you ✌🏾
needed to hear this--that it can get better--thank you
@@lukesguywalker it absolutely can get better don't lose hope and always keep a lookout for better opportunities, I was in a dead end temp job for about 8 months with the hopes of being hired on as an actual employee with better pay and benefits dangled in my face if I worked hard, was working 6 12 hour days and still struggling to pay bills, eventually I got burned out and stopped showing up
went to a job fair shortly after and met a recruiter for a job in oil and gas, they hired me on and I got to travel and make great money for a few years, after a while I decided I didn't want to travel anymore and became a union electrician and my life is 1000x better than it was just 4-5 years ago, it can always get better you just have to keep your eye out for better opportunities and don't allow the dark times to swallow you like it nearly did to me
@@lukesguywalker Sometimes it does. A lot of the time it doesn't. Life is often tough and bleak and most of the time for most people things never get better. People just like to hear feel-good stories of how someone pulled out of a slump and ended up with money or a wife and kids or whatever but that doesn't happen most of the time.
Majora's Mask excels somewhere around the halfway point of an initial playthrough, when your mind starts to map everything in the game world together. Exploring and engaging grants you gain a new understanding of the characters and setting, and once that clicks it's an indescribable feeling of empathy, dread, melancholy, etc. You can't really experience it a second time. I was so deeply moved by that game upon my first completion, but upon coming back to it you already know the ins and outs of the game and it's hard to recreate that first contact. In the same way you can never have the "aha" moment of a mystery, for instance.
majora's mask as any other 3d zelda game has aged badly, even skyward sword wich is a 2011 game has aged badly too
@breadandcircuses8127 very mediocre combat/open world/story/characters
@@Jeanssj98 oot and wind waker have aged fine this is an L
@@mcdonkey500 except no, oot and wind waker are very mid games nowadays
@@Jeanssj98to be a "mid" game it would need competition in a way that actually tried to achieve the same but did it better.
While I enjoy botw and totk, they do vastly different things
If you can give me a compact item based closed-ended 3d action adventure that isn't a hack-and-slash, I would thank you a lot actually. There are a few that I would say are just as good as the old 3d Zelda, but I'm still searching for a "Zelda but better" game
I just played the bioshock games for the first time because everybody was praising them and I loved them. Games dont have to be perfect, they just have to feel perfect.
I just started bioshock last week, got the whole trilogy on sale for $15AUD (a steal). I'm really enjoying myself so much, the gameplay is fun and the world building is so compelling, but by far my biggest issue with it right off the bat was "so we're really indiscriminately killing these residents of a secluded realm that we happened to stumble upon and we seem to be oddly okay with it." So I imagine replaying a game can really highlight issues like that 😅
Edit: so I'm now almost done with it and, well... Let's just say my initial impression wasn't a narrative oversight.
I’m just too critical of games to enjoy them when someone already did it much better.
I can never get over how poorly implemented Infinites gameplay is compared to Bioshock 1 and 2.
I enjoyed Infinite at first, but like almost all games it was repetitive and stale.
Commenter: "I like this game"
Half the replies: "well I don't and so you shouldn't either"
Let people enjoy things repliers, it ain't hard
The ending of Infinite made me so excited for the future of the franchise. An anthology series with wildly different settings based on the same premise: "There's always a man, a lighthouse, a city." Then the DLC closed that door real quick.
Seeing the cracks of something you previously enjoyed can really devalue your experience of said thing
Sad but true
it is called, childhood
Huh, no.
@@6200Morten na, that can happen any time and on the other hand. Many childhood favorites stand the test of time.
Have you heard of the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV? With an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime.
This mostly reaffirms my personal motto, "Let your fond memories remain memories." Nostalgic revisitings rarely live up to how we think they'll go.
That is a great way to look at it, i think i ll use it from time to time but sometimes the memories can be exceeded. I have revisited Warframe after a long time and while i had fun with the new quests i don't know how long will i stick around, in this case it was better as a memory. On the other hand i have also replayed Morrowind to finish it after years, and i can say that i had as much if not more fun with it, it lived up to the memory and then some (Admittedly when i played it first i literally used it to try and learn English, so its a different kind of fun but whatever)
Occasionally they can still hit. I played Transformers Fall of Cybertron last year for its 10 year anniversary and it was just as enjoyable as I remembered.
Nah there's games that absolutely stand the test of time though.
I say better to go for it. What have you really lost if you're disappointed? You still had the great time you originally had, nothing can ever take that away. And alongside gaining a new perspective on art, you stand a chance to have another great time all over again. Grab what you can, when you can, because one day you can't, and then you'll regret it. Like who knows when a piece of old tech will fail, or a licencing law will get randomly tightened, or a company will simply decide to stop supporting something and remove it from everywhere? Who knows what your health's going to be tomorrow, or if you'll even have a roof over your head? If you think it might be fun today and you have the spare time, give it the chance, and if it turns out it isn't, well you found out, which is no worse than if you hadn't. I have had an awesome time returning to several old games and am certain it's not the last time. Even ones I've been relatively disappointed by I've still had fun with.
"Memories are nice, but that's all they are"
-rikku
As a vintage game collector and player, I relate too strongly to this. I am very nostalgic by nature, and it has taken me aback as age has removed the shades of fondness of classics when I replay them. It’s often a reminder of how much I have changed since then.
I tend to feel the same way, I was afraid to replay Koudelka for years because of this, surprisingly the game does still hold up to this day, except for some annoying parts where bad luck would just kill you
The amount of times I hear raz say “I’ve never been more moved” 😂 I love it
BECAUSE WITH EACH TIME IT HAPPENS I HAD NEVER BEEN MORE MOVED BEFORE IT!
but yeah this is my version of when Jacob Geller says "I think about it a lot"
Jacob Geller reference hits hard
Lmao
@@razbuten Missed opportunity to say:
"I have never been more moved, by a comment"
We love ya Raz! 😜
I think retro-reviews and replays often fail to recapture the magic because most people aren't trying to reply a game, they're trying to re-experience an emotion.
A lot of good storytelling works similarly to a magic trick. Just like a good illusion, a good story will have setup, misdirection and payoff. Sometimes you come out of a story wondering how it made you feel the way it did, but understand the "trick" often takes away the magic.
A lot of stories aren't made to be told twice. It's not bad storytelling per se, so much as the plot intentionally sacrifices logical consistency to deliver the intended punch, and if it does things right you don't actually realize it doesn't make sense until either a second go, or somebody points a core flaw out to you.
It's not a problem exclusive to video games (and debatably it's not even a problem), but I do think gaming suffers more because gaming gets away with shallower stories and cheaper twists than some other media because the nature of interactivity builds a personal investment easier than the passive role most people take in other media. In gaming, we don't watch the magic trick, we participste in the show.
I usually find stories like that are pretty shallow in the moment as well though. Most of the best stories aren't built off of a magic trick, but usually a communication and demonstration of a human truth.
It's fun to experience a magic trick like Bioshock 1 every once in a while, but a story that gets deep down and explores the nuances of life like an MGS3 is pretty much timeless and endlessly replayable.
This is why fans of movies are better rewarded. You get movies like Marvel schlock, sure, but get high quality things like City of God, Hereditary, Oldboy or Zodiac, which rewards rewatches and can be enjoyed once by their cheer excellence in storytelling and character depth. Those things are rarely present in games, and not in the same level.
@@TheLingo56 I couldn't agree more. I would go as far as to disagree entirely with OP and say that that _is_ bad storytelling. In my opinion, and it is just that, a story that can only be told once isn't a story worth telling.
@@LunamrathP what about the story in The Outer Wilds. The full impact can only be experienced once
@@lesedimokgobi You make a fair point, in that I think about the story of Outer Wilds all the time and would not at all mind experiencing that aspect of the game again. So there is a manner of subjectivity to it.
If you're talking about the fact that the game itself can't be fully experienced more than once, I would consider that an entirely different subject from the topic of storytelling.
This is actually really strange considering I just had a very opposite experience you did with infinite. When I was young I really didn't like it because nothing in the story and time travel stuff added up. But as an adult I played through it again and actually really enjoyed it. Not for the story but for the atmosphere and spectacle. It felt fresh to me in the modern day where so many big games have no soul to them. It's weird how opposite our experiences with it are.
This is such a wonderful counterpoint. I wonder if you growing up gave you the ability to be critical in a way that let the game shine for what it was, while for Raz it forced him to see what it was. Similar paths, just opposite directions.
I haven’t played any Bioshock (I wish I could, but I am physically incapable of playing first person games, depressingly) but I feel this way about any game with soul. Games that get critiqued for not making enough “sense” or “not saying something meaningful” just feels weird to me. Why does it have to say something deeply meaningful? Why can’t it just be a great game with a great soul? If I thoroughly enjoy something and it makes me excited and happy, why isn’t that what matters the most?
@@fluffyphoenix8082 I feel like expectations are a huge factor. Young Razbuten didn't see the inconsistencies and had his mind blown by the story so when he revisited as an adult expecting the same thing he was disappointed. Young me being a huge fan of the other bioshocks went in expecting an extremely deep story with meaningful twists and turns and was disappointed but old me went in expecting a fun shooter and was delighted by the world building, atmosphere and spectacle. I feel for you not being able to play I have a friend who has a similar issue and it sucks not being able to share those experiences with him.
I’m the same way. I hated infinite on my first play through as I liked the first two games so much. Played it a month or so again and found myself invested in it
@@fluffyphoenix8082 The main difference is that some games try to be meaningful, but just aren't. If a game is just meant to be meaningless fun out the gate, that's fine. It's when games obviously try and fail to have some "deep meaning" that it gets annoying.
I’ve replayed a lot of games that I initially loved but have never experienced what you spoke about here. I pretty much still feel the same about them as I always did
Yeah same, I love going back and replaying games
he prolly replays these games with thr mindset that he wants to hate or critisize them
Ditto
Always want to but rarely ever replay anything.
@@drforestQuite same. I have only a few replays. I had multiple playthroughs of Ac brotherhood and 3, Sekiro, Gta 4, BF1 and enjoyed them every time. But yeah the mystery of story is not the same.
The "give me back my daughter" scene lives rent free in my brain and it always will. Honestly, the game being objectively good or bad doesn't matter to me because the story had such an impact on me.
Put some rent on it ,maybe you could get some money out of it with all those quantum realities out there ;D
Same, Infinite is just a fantastic game.
Games can't be objectively good or objectively bad. Everything in art is subjective. If someone genuinely loves Ride to Hell Retribution or Duke Nukem Forever, then those are good games to them. Any objective qualities are irrelevant.
@@OperatorError0919 No one gives a fuck.
Say what you want about Troy Baker, the man can really act
Memories and nostalgia often combine to make people remember the feeling of something at that time in your life versus the actual reality of what it was. People who "miss" video rental stores like Blockbuster forget what it actually was like and only remember the positive feeling of being a carefree kid on a Friday night, for instance.
Great comparison. As much as it was fun to go to Blockbuster, pick out a movie, get the popcorn etc people forget it was mildly inconvenient (movie you want not being there, driving 20 mins to get there etc) but I believe it was the “community” aspect of it that was so appealing. Look at gaming now, since the Xbox 360/PS3 era the in game lobbies and random custom game parties were in abundance… now not so much. There is a huge nostalgia for that era now too, and 2 of the games in this video came out during that time
@@docmitchell4658And I think in modern society, community is missing. Sure streaming is convenient, but it also isolates people from one another.
@@kratos823 He was just wrong. It was enjoyable to go to the video store and walk around reading the backs of boxes. And I have no idea where people live that it took 20 minutes to drive to a video store. Then what you rented you appreciated and watched because there weren't 10 million other options at your fingertips once you got home.
Yep, I was terrible about forgetting to bring the tapes back and having to pay late fees. Or going to get a specific movie you've been wanting to see, and it's all checked out. Yeah I don't miss it.
@@cmdrfunk I agree with the points you’ve raised. I don’t live in the USA so may have a different perspective than you. I loved Blockbuster, bought a few of my favourite games there and rented great movies there too.. I was just saying that objectively speaking it was an inconvenience compared to today’s setup.
20 mins in USA driving is 10 miles down a straight road living the dream… 20 minutes elsewhere in the world is 3 miles but stuck in inner city traffic on small roads for 17 of those 20 mins.
Perspective.
For me it was Bioshock 1.
I remember replaying it recently and just...being annoyed and even got bored to the point of dropping it. Dark Messiah of Might and Magic is also a candidate.
Nostalgia is a powerful drug.
Bioshock 1 is one the best games ever put out
I feel like at least one aspect of this is also the fact that games have an impact on subsequent games. If a game excels at something, it shapes and influences new games a few years later. Games as a media constantly improves and reforms as a whole and what made Bioshock Infinite great back then is part of the DNA of games that came afterwards.
Yuh! I talk about that in here with AC2! Keep watching!
@@razbuten I was actually right at that point and wrote the comment as you were speaking. You're saying that AC2 is the Ubisoft rule, but I'd say it's a bit different.
If a game like AC2 shapes the genre or industry as much as it does, I wouldn't consider it the "first offender". It's often called the "Ubisoft formula" and I'd say that word fits better, because it aknowledges, that it started becoming the "norm" after AC2.
It's not just games, it happens with things like film and TV too. There's a trope called "Seinfeld is Unfunny" that basically stems from the fact that Seinfeld was such an enormously popular and influential TV show that things that made it seem fresh and novel at the time now just seem like a parade of clichés, because they've been copied so widely by things that came after it.
And yet there are movies, books, TV series, etc. that still hold up decades or even centuries later even despite the fact that they've been copied countless times. For games too there are true classics that stand the test of time. I think a unique challenge for games is that a player needs to put in dozens (or hundreds) of hours to complete them, which is a higher cost compared to rewatching movies or even re-reading books. Combine this with the fact that outdated mechanics can be tedious (e.g., fetch quests, random battles, unstoppable cutscenes, empty open worlds, etc.) and it makes sense that very few games truly stand the test of time.
@@thatanimeweirdo It's absolutely true that AC2 has power in gaming history as a trendsetter, but as discussed in the video, that doesn't affect the play experience. It could be said to make the game special, but that context doesn't change the fact that when you play the game it will feel similar to other games, which might even do what it does better. Either way, it will feel redundant. Why play a game that's only historically interesting?
it's ok to consider something a personal favorite simply because it opened your eyes to something new and exciting, even if you find it lacking in the grandeur you remember upon revisiting it. the shows "are you afraid of the dark?" and "so weird" remain some of my absolute favorites even though i KNOW if i were to actually sit down and watch any of the episodes now, i'd probably physically injure myself cringing lol. but i still love them because they introduced me to the wonders that can be found in horror, scary stories, and mystical thinking and nothing can change that. so it's ok for you to enjoy infinite despite you recent revelation because it's the game that inspired you to explore video games on a deeper level. you wouldn't be where you are without it
I think there's an importance of separating your experience then from your experience now.
For example, growing up, I really loved the game Marvel Ultimate Alliance because it was a fun beat 'em up game with my favourite superheroes that I played with my brothers.
If I played it now I'm sure I'd probably find it dull and the graphics incredibly dated. Does that cheapen my original experience? No, because I'm aware of the separation.
I think the disappointment that the guy in the video is talking about largely comes from expectations. If he went into those games with the mindset that they'll probably be worse, but that he knows he had fun as a kid then I think he'd still have a lot more of the respect of those games that he used to.
That's a long-winded way to say "It's okay to like things that suck for emotional reasons"
This is actually a really good way to describe my growing with Ocarina of Time. It was an iconic game, it did a ton for gaming, hell, it got me INTO video games. But as much as I appreciate it, I have to acknowledge the bad parts(like the repetitive combat cycles, the fact that the game itself aged like milk, so on). And as a result, I have a healthy appreciation for a game that has widely been considered one of the best, but not TOO much of an appreciation that I get lost in that nostalgic hype.
I mean I still watch “are you afraid of the dark?” to appreciate the practical effects, and the “so bad it’s good” acting (although that point holds more with the goosebumps tv show)
But yh, highly recommend a rewatch of ur fave episodes if you haven’t in a while
I think we also should accept that things can be great in different ways than they used to. I loved "Are You Afraid of the Dark" because it was spooky and cool, now I love it because it is cheesy, spoopy, and nostalgic. The flaws and camp of it is the personality that gives it quality.
Don't go into it expecting it to be the same, go into it seeing what made it so fun. You know what it is, so don't watch it for what it ain't.
And maybe make it a watchparty with friends (who watched the show) and alcohol...
I recently played Majora's mask for the first time, and I had VERY minimal nostalgia for it, pretty much all I did as a kid was mess around in clock town, because as you said in the video it's hard to grasp the time loop mechanic as a kid. But even though I called myself a big Zelda fan ever since I played OoT, I just remember thinking I didn't really need to experience Majora's mask because it was just the less popular version of OoT, and the thought of understanding the time loop scared me. I heard that it was "dark" and "depressing" but I thought when people said that they meant that it was for a Nintendo game, (kinda like the ending of link's awakening.) So I went into the game with lower expectations. And now I'm considering weather I like it MORE than OoT, because it really surprised me with just how emotional the game really could be. I felt the fear and dread that the npcs did when the final day was nearing an end, and the realization that I'm not really saving anyone or helping anyone, but just abandoning timelines to hopefully save the world hit me like a truck. The time loop mechanic that used to scare me away from the game was one of my favorite parts of it. I'm not saying all of this to try and convince you to like MM or anything, it's just that I agree with you that it's not that the game has aged poorly, but that expectations and poor memory can really ruin something you used to love.
I think that, in Raz's case, it's more about the fact he originally disliked the game but afterwards got taken in by the hype and subconsciously edited his own memories with the game to make it better than what it was.
As for me, I've replayed MM recently after first playing it as a teen and I still liked it.
It's also worth considering whether to play the original N64 version (or a port) or the 3DS remaster - the latter has a mix of improvements and disimprovements (and some more-or-less neutral changes), so picking the better version is non-trivial...
Don't ever listen to anybody when they describe a game (or movie, or book, etc.) to you. They're always full of it. Experience it for yourself. Assume other people are morons and ignore them. Good rule of thumb.
I never played OoT or MM on the original n64. I did not even play OoT until my late teens and MM even later. I seriously think that you cannot only play a game as a kid and then more than a decade later and find the same game.
So after playing many different games, OoT was still amazing. Explore a world that to me was new (first Zelda game), puzzle together the timelines and the still clear goals and how to achieve them (most of the time). I am pretty sure if I replay it now (especially withmy gf who would see it for her first time), my nostalgia might pull me through enough to ignore some dated and mostly slow segments. The story and world would still be intriguing, even if the gameplay itself would be hampered by the dated design.
MM however, to me, does the opposite. I kind of knew what to expect also due to learning about the zelda lore after getting more invested in zelda with BotW. But the way you control everything, I just could not be bothered to deal with the old (control) design. I got so frustrated trying to find stuff and do them in time before a day ended, or do aiming with horrible controls. I do not think I lasted even 1 cycle, maybe not even a full day. So unfortunately, I do not think I will ever play MM, since I do not have the nostalgia to make it through.
You say that, but MM really didn't age that well either. Some of it is still good today, sure, like the atmosphere, but there are other elements, such as the controls, that I'll never understand someone pretending are good. Not that you are specifically, but that you hear people online say things like that. To me MM did age somewhat poorly. The way it looks, from the textures, to the models, is very iconic and does, to a degree anyways, lend itself to the overall atmosphere, as I noted before. That said, it's an ugly game in a lot of ways and the advancement in video games has shown me that. There is a way someone could fix the game up to be more bearable to loop at while keeping 99 or 100% of that appeal and that's what I'd love to see. Metroid Prime is a good example-- though I'm rambling at this point.
I felt this way replaying The Force Unleashed as an adult. Damn shame.
Yikes yeah. Having an awesome looking and semi-decent SW game(with actual lightsaber duels) was a big deal by itself.
It's just the fact we got one at all was probably why we accepted its MANY flaws. Going back to it now is a huge shock to the system. It's very mediocre.
@@Lelende Yeah. It was kind of fun with all the ability combos, but it didn't age that well.
As a huge TFU fan, who just played the games as recently as last year, the game is still great. It has flaws but it's still a blast (QTE's haven't aged well at all)
Are you sure you aren't just getting the PC/PS3/Xbox and PSP/WII/PS2 versions mixed up, they're basically 2 different games and a lot of people consider the ps2/psp/wii version to be the best.
I never had any nostalgia for TFU having first played it when I was like 19.
I think it's a very competent hack and slash game. The force powers are STILL the best of any star wars title and it's fun to slaughter stormtroopers by the dozen. The game has multiple enemy types, a lot of unique locations; what's not to like? One thing I could possibly complain about is the graphics wich are showing their age at some points with muddy textures, especially compared to TFU 2 (even if the sequel is definitely the worse game overall).
The thing that's so necessary about Assassin's Creed 2 specifically is the attention to detail in the level design. Its interpretation of historical Italy and its architectural history is honestly incredible, they did the work to create a legitimate piece of virtual tourism and that makes it timeless
@breadandcircuses8127 at this point only on the strength of accomplishment in its level design. the recreation of Florence, its significant buildings alone, not to mention the other cities featured in the game...in the series, this is rivaled only by the scale of Unity's Paris and the socioeconomic depictions in Origin's Egypt
@@404err0rpeople can say what they will about AC Origins, but holy shit was it immersive.
The historical nature of the AC games is my favorite part. Doing syndicate right now. Never did AC2 but will have to mow . Glad I own it.
I agree, and having just finished replaying the game in the last month I can say that it really does hold up gameplay wise (aside from a couple odd quirks, such as the beat-em-up quests that felt very forced). I was actually relieved that it's a comparatively short game with fewer side things to do compared to games that came out later, even in the same series. I also replayed AC1 and found it to be unpolished and buggy in spite of its potential which it never quite reached, and think that AC2 is the sweet spot among all the AC games which became too bloated even if the physics improved. And of course, the history. I recently read Machiavelli's History of Florence prior to the replay and was happy to trace the research that the game's developers did and appreciate the work that few gamers would ever notice but which added an additional layer of realism.
@@leo_wentzelnothing better to immerse yourself in a game than a burning horse and Final Fantasy characters dishing it out in the sky
Your reaction to Majora’s Mask is the reason why I’ve never played it, been tempted to because of the aesthetic, conversation, and how so many people cherish it, but I know myself well enough to know that it’s not for me, I want it to be but it’s not
You can at least try, if it isn't for you, u can just drop it
@@matheusnunes234
The game costs money no?
@@ddm_gamer emulators
@@ddm_gamer not if they already have the switch online subscription
But have you played other zelda games ?
I have nearly the opposite problem: I love things less the longer it's been. I convince myself, I'm just being nostalgic. I re-read my favorite story once a year for this reason. Each time I expect to come away disillusioned, and while its flaws become clearer each time, it remains my favorite.
What is your favorite story?
I too would like to know your favorite story
Ahw man im sorry to hear that. Y gotta remember theres nothing wrong with "just being nostalgic" :)
@@tuusolpl8945 You didn't pay attention to the video if you still think there's nothing wrong with being nostalgic.
It distorts your memory and expectations to a unreasonable degree.
@@cormano64 ye thas alri. Its just your memories of videogames/whatever, and theyre pleasent. you dont really *gain* anything by getting rid of nostalgia. He talks about exactly thia in the video too mate. 18:00
The script for this is incredible, super well connected and well made. Thoughtful and personal but informative. Hats off!
This actually reminded me of a motel my family went to when I was a child on a vacation to Cape Cod. Over a decade later my parents wanted us to all go back to Cape Cod and I was extremely hesitant because I thought the reality could not possibly compare to my memory
(And in case you're wondering, the motel wasn't absolutely perfect the second time around, but it was still a great, great time)
As always outer wilds makes an appearance, along with the the music. How the heck did they make something so good
man i wish i liked it tbh. don't get me wrong i acknowledge that it's awesome, just sadly not a game i could really get 100% into.
It’s sooo tedious in the end when you are just searching for the last things.
I loved in the beginning but Would never replay it (until the rose tinted Nostalgia googles take over probably)
@@jeffboy4231 it happens, at least you tried! I appreciate you trying
@@bnjkf9u3 I disagree. The log does a good hob of telling you what you misées but we can agree to disagree
Bro one of the best games for sure. The experience was surreal. My only complaint was the last step to get into ash twin was very obtuse. And sadly it's a once in a lifetime experience. Even though I did enjoy the subsequent replays, nothing will ever hit the same as discovering everything for the first time.
I still go back and play the Jak, Ratchet, and Sly games every 5 years or so. There's very little about most of the games in those series that I dislike now that I'm older. I'd be lying if I said there weren't a few things but in my opinion aside from all of the nostalgia I have for them they are still amazing games. :)
Ah sly it was so fun pickpocketing everyone
I don’t like the main city in Jak 2. There’s a bunch of npc’s around but the city still feels hollow. It was a ps2 game though, so you’ve got to cut it some slack
@swissfan100 It was also one of the first games to straight rip off GTA3s open world city. It was just an accomplishment to have a persistant city with crowd AI that worked. Sprinkle in a handful of racing and hide and seek mini games and youve got one of the biggest games on the market in 2003!
@@Tamacat388 I first played jak 2 around 2016 so by the time I played it, it was rough in terms of open world obviously. What amazes me though is I played gta IV in like 2008 or 9 and liberty city feels almost as empty, so jak 2 being able to do it as well as them (at least to me) years before is impressive
Same. For me the only thing Ii end up laughing at myself over is how the graphics aged. But I remember them looking Soo good XD
But to me they are still great
One game series that I often come back to is the Mass Effect trilogy. That game is a masterpiece in my opinion. Some people may see that ME1 is outdated and the gameplay is "old" but the story is still what makes it amazing. If you can accept that it's not a new game then the world that they built is truly magnificent! ME 2 and 3 plays like a more modern game so it's easier to play but still the story is there and it makes it worthwhile to play!
The trilogy as a whole is a masterpiece. Even if the ending of 3 was not that great or the story of 2 feels like a missed opportunity from ME1 story, they all still handle things very well especially 3.
@@MODDED7I’m playing the legendary edition now and I’ve never played any of them. I’m currently on ME1. I hope the other 2 games stay this good. I love the feeling I get of feeling like I’m actually in space with these characters. The atmosphere is amazing!
@@SquarePenix. Awesome! If your enjoying Mass Effect 1 that much then you'll 100% love ME2 and 3. They only get better with the gameplay and especially the music.
As a game dev being analytical about every game I play is removing part of the fun for me. I hate and love it at the same time. Great video and great content, as usual!
Yeah. As a writer, I can relate. If you want to make the best product you can, you've got to foster a brain that can see all the flaws, and understand the pieces that the whole thing is made up of. A real downside, when suspense of disbelief is so integral to enjoying them.
Same with me and music, 10 years of music education make me nitpick and analyse most things. Luckily it somehow only extends to classical music, so I can still enjoy other genres. Also, performing is still always a thrill as it is so much different from just listening
@gerry3755 if you could go back, would you chose a different career path than that of a game dev to enjoy games again ?
As a Game Dev, I *ESPECIALLY* reccomend you start doing challenge runs of games. It allows you to analyze all the individual choices the dev team made for PC interactions; and it massively opens your perspective on the pacing and tension/relief choices and possibilities.
@@winpvpghost not really. I still enjoy playing games and love my job. But I tend to look for new genres or new mechanics more than how I was used to. ( Finding myself scrolling pointlessly on steam trying to find something good for me is hard eheh ). Also the amount of available time is a factor to consider, as Razbuten mentioned in the video as well.
Let's say it's a different perspective which removes part of the magic.
A couple years ago I wondered if Elder Scrolls Oblivion was actually as good as I remembered, because I always remembered it as more fun than Skyrim.
After playing it again after like 15 years, yes it really was better than Skyrim 😌
(I did run it with a good amount of graphics mods though, but same thing for skyrim)
Yeah I had the same thoughts. I have always held Oblivion in a higher regard than Skyrim but thought it was down to nostalgia but it really is better in multiple ways
I also really like the themes and fantastical nature of Oblivion more than Skyrim's Norse inspired themes
Obligatory Morrowind is better than both comment here.
In fact, I am playing it right now!
@@HL1_EP1 I made a huge mistake of a fresh playthrough for modded and not even backing up my beast character's saves. Now I don't think I have the time to build a good character again, especially with Morrowinds combat and levelling system.
@@NaN-cn5hq You can just level up to around 25, get a "Fortify Skill" spell and start getting overpowered from there. I am actually still on my first playthrough.
I am going to make a "Restore Health 480 points" ring and if you fortify your enchant skill to 110 everything costs 1 point to cast so I can basically cast it 400 times.
I actually love both Oblivion and Skyrim but Morrowind does a lot of things better.
Yea oblivion is better than Skyrim, and Morrowind is better than oblivion. Skyrim is the fallout 4 of elder scrolls
There does seem to be a balance between going with the flow and enjoying an experience at face value, and scrutinizing it for any flaws, inevitably dampening or even ruining your experience. That isn't to say we shouldn't be analytical or in-depth, but we can argue ourselves into almost any position. It's like being in a relationship with someone who looks for any excuse to be miserable with their partner.
The problem is that he's a game critic , it explains it
@@MrLachapell Yeah this and content creation will jade any gamer over time
@@glthegamemaster4197 that and having to discern every tiny detail of a game , gameplay, graphics, plot, etc.. will burn out anyone
I think Infinite received the critical acclaim it did precisely because of a lack of scrutiny from games journalists. It was never deserving of that much praise, and it's taken us this long to finally start acknowledging that.
Eh, honestly I think acknowledging a game’s flaws give one a more nuanced understanding of it and why they like it. I don’t see that as a fault.
Loved Infinite, came back 10 yrs later, still love it.
6:20
@@TonyBustaroniI feel the same .... infinite is like a seriously 2/10
Loved infinite, came back frequently since it’s release to play it and now I hate it.
Bioshock 1 and 2 have aged like a fine wine, whereas infinite has aged like a loaf of bread that was already on the turn.
Same, I played it few months back after 10 years. Still love it
Replaying a game makes you look at it analytically because you know where the story is going this time. This is why before i say a game is my absolute favourite, i replay it again or look at critiques about it good/bad and eventually play it again. I do it with all my favourite games. And it helps me to appreciate my favourite games so much more.
I played Majora's mask for the first time ever back in 2020, and its one of the few N64 games I've played, I had an absolute blast. I think what helped is that I had heard that it was good, but I wasn't engaged in the conversation so much that it got glorified, I had seen many videos critiquing it long before I played it and when I finally did I went in without a pre-conceived notion of it being god's gift to mankind
The whole Ben Drowned pasta really skewed people's ideas on how dark and creepy Termina is IMO, when it's really not THAT kind of creepy and unsettling. Yes, there's a moon set to fall within three days, but unless you talk to every NPC that doesn't do anything each day, you don't really feel the "doom is slowly approaching" vibe.
It's barely any darker than Ocarina of Time was, it's just that in OoT you can't see Ganondorf taking over Hyrule because you're skipping 7 years, while in Termina you can see the moon crash down and destroy the town of you don't reset in time.
I think for newer players that’s the best route to go, go in blind or without any expectations. Not because the game is bad, but because the reason why people like me do have a lot of nostalgia and love for the game is we were kids going in blind having a blast. Replaying it with other Zelda titles every few years, I can agree with the video that it is still a wonderful game, literally she is an icon 💅, but not this superior status of game in comparison to any other wonderful game I’ve played (tbh them clunky ass controls has me raging more now than it did as a kid 😂)
@@neoqwerty Yeah it isn't a dark game, yes there's sad moments but it's more of "dread" game than something creepy
@@neoqwerty I already saw a comment about it, but Jacob Gellar did a great video about how every Zelda is pretty much just as dark in a similar way. What people miss about MM because of the oversimplification of "It's the dark one" is the emotional weight of it, a lot of which comes from optional content, which is why some people, me included, feel like the side quests are just as important, if not more so, as the main quest.
@@lowlywisp7953 I'm pretty sure the "dark one" is supposed to be twilight princess, or at least the "edgy one". What works with Majora's Mask is how unfiltered it is, the NPCs literally all have different dialogues that react realistically when they know they are all about to die and can do nothing about it. Majora's Mask hurts because it feels so real, these NPCs aren't some cartoony characters like the ones in ocarina of time, they're people.
I think this holds true for all media. I'll pretty regularly go back and watch old shows, or read old books and have that thought: "why did I ever like this?" I find it sad, but also almost liberating, in a strange sort of way.
Except for Buffy. I rewatch Buffy and still love it. In fact, some of the episodes I thought were kind of crappy I now like better. The only thing I wish is that I could watch Buffy and Angel for the first time again. I wish I didn't know where the story is going.
rewatching old amateur web series that I was a fan of as a teen is a weird experience.
I think that rewatching something with a friend who has never seen it helps a lot.
@@bittripboy I agree. It is why I love reaction videos on Buffy for new viewers. A bit obsessed I am.
I disagree. When I'm watching reaction videos of movies and shows that I love, I find that I love them even more because I'm consciously comparing them to the bad writing of today. So many movies today lack the setup and payoff of Back to the Future. Blockbuster action movies today lack the visceral destruction of Con Air because they don't use actual cars and explosions anymore. The fight scenes in Jackie Chan movies are better than the shaky cam and jump cut fight scenes of today.
Pretty great to be able to do this, I think a lot of us just stick by whatever feeling we had back when and refuse to accept any different analysis. Big props to the very idea of reevaluating your favs outside of nostalgia’s grip, which can be so strong.
I recently was thinking about how actually, most levels in Sonic Adventure 2 were quite bad. But because of Chao Garden, players are encouraged essentially to replay the levels they liked again and again to grind, and since you can pick which levels you play, you end up with a memory of the best parts of Sonic Adventure 2 and none of the bad parts because of that reinforcement. Really interesting video as always Raz, thanks!
I believe Projared came to the same conclusion when he reviewed Sonic Adventure 2
That was my reaction when playing modern warefare 2. I remembered all the fun moments in each level, but not the slog to get to those points lol
This is pretty much how I felt when I went back and started replaying Sonic games a few years ago, turns out a lot of them are actually just. Not that good. Remembering the highs and forgetting that actually, two thirds of the game is boring garbage.
At the same time though a few games I ended up liking a lot more just because I've gotten better at playing games in general
I'm part way through reading this and already the soundtrack is rocking inside my head, demanding my attention. You're absolutely right about the chao garden level select filtering. Why'd they ever get rid of chao garden? It was the best!
Everyone could see this as a kid really. SA2 is a terrible buggy mess with bad dialogue and dodgy controls but the Chao Garden is great. Like you literally just play the levels repeatedly for drives for your chao. Even playing on gamecube as a kid this seemed extremely apparent to me. Sonic doesn't really hide the fact that they're all bad games very well.
I usually go back to Bioshock games to just explore the environments. Rapture and Columbia are so intricate and immersive.
BAM you nailed it lol
Yeah, and the same goes for games like Assassin's Creed for me, the atmosphere of the environments is the draw, even if the gameplay and story is just serviceable, traversing those cool environments is really, really cool
For me, a game like outer wilds is so great not specifically for the gameplay loop but because of the thought it provoked in me. it took me about a month playing on and off to finish the game but after i turned off my PC i don’t think i ever really stopped playing it, because it was always there in my mind. and it’s those memories that make the game have a special place in my heart
"game with time travel does not fully make sense" is not the biggest hottake ngl
I look at things in a very different way. I've found that revisiting things I'm nostalgic about has often led to me better understanding them and appreciating them all the more. I feel more from an emotional movie or story after consecutively returning to it than I did the first time. But I've also been critical about everything I've consumed for as long as I can remember, so I could explain to you exactly why I find something important or not from the first time experiencing it.
This is basically exactly where I'm coming from. Revisiting two of the three specific games mentioned in this video, I loved them as much as I ever have, but I understand them better. Infinite rubs me the wrong way in certain aspects, but there's a lot there that does work and is worth celebrating.
Rain World enjoyer with the good takes
RAIN WORLD
based slugcat
That is exactly my experience. I can't say I've ever revisited something I enjoyed and no longer enjoy it (There are things I am more critical of now, but still enjoy overall)
"The longer I went without playing them, the better they were allowed to become." Man, that line hit *hard.*
(Also love the editing in this one. Talking about memories to clips of the Animus, and faulty memories to footage of Ezio desynchronizing? 10/10)
Raz, your placement of scenes to compliment what you are saying is masterful. Bringing a smile to my face and immersing me in the video. Great stuff.
I just replayed BioShock infinite again, and had the exact opposite happen. I loved the game even more
Good for you.
Same. Didn't like the plot and gameplay back in 2013, but revisiting it was fun and I just enjoyed the soundtrack and exploring.
@@mattymclaughlin5900 yes, good for him and bad for the youtuber. This whole video is useless subjective rant of someone with a bad memory
@@robosergTV Harsh- but I see what you mean.
@@robosergTV Infinite is a pretty much overrated game. Just played it after coming back to the Bioshock saga and definitely there are big flows with the narrative of the game. That said, it's stunning.
This definitely happened to me when replaying Fallout 3 some months ago, due to it being the first RPG I played back when I was 13 I held it in an extremely high regard, but replaying it I realized "Wow, the story really takes a nosedive at the end, what the fuck"
Never got the ending for Fallout 3, but I remember getting lost in its huge world and having a blast!
Yeah, I was very disappointed with the screen at the end that simply said: "You wake up and realize it was all a dream." 😮
Just kidding. You actually end up getting married to a ghoul at the History Museum and making minigun keychains for the gift shop.
@@maxm2639 the good ending
Nosedive at the end? It’s pretty poorly written the whole way through
It goes to show that a well written plot is one very important component and cannot be substituted with many shining bells and whistles!
It's pretty incredible to look back at how game changing AC2 was and how it changed the gaming landscape.
I tried replaying it and had the same feeling as you. The music in that game still in incredible. "Ezio's family" is one of the best and most recognizable pieces of gaming music ever composed imo
"AC2" is a stupid acronym because people can read it as either Armoured Core 2 or Assassins Creed 2
@@Ghorda9 WTF is armored core 2? When people say AC2, most will know what you're talking about
@@Ghorda9 no one has ever thought that AC2 means Armored Core 2 lol, Armored Core is a pretty obscure series.
@@ivkuben4022 that's suddenly becoming more relevant since the announcement of AC6 and recent increased coverage from streamers.
@@Ghorda9 There's only so many letters to start games and form acronyms with
Beautiful video. I think that applies to absolutely everything - games you loved, movies, your favorite band from high school. And I love going back to them from time to time. The thing is: you should never approach something that was meaningful to you as it still should be, or if it was meant to hit you the same way it once did. Approach those things as the person that you once were, and you should be able to both enjoy the nostalgia AND appreciate how much you've changed.
I replayed the entire bioshock trilogy when the remastered collection came out. I still loved all of them.
I played the trilogy for the first time a year ago. Liked 1 and definitely respect its legendary status, but I loved the sequel way way more and I was shocked it was disliked at the time! And I played Infinite and felt exactly the way Raz did here.
I played them all and was really disappointed. 2 was the most fun mechanically but I didn't really like any of them that much. Also am playing through System Shock 2 for the first time and it & Prey 2017 CLEAR bioshock
I love one and 2, I would play burial at sea just so I could explore old rapture again..
@@aidan8473 Thats just ur opinion
@@ImGonnaFudgeThatFish The first BioShock, like the first Knights of the Old Republic, definitely gets by to some extent on how people felt about its plot twist back in the day.
And then both got better direct sequels, developed by different studios, that weren't really appreciated at the time.
"The flow of time is always cruel... Its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that doesn't change with time is a memory of younger days."
E: But honestly, my experience with Majora's Mask is the exact opposite.
Apparently I had some issues with anxiety and panic attacks as a little kid, and the imminent doom of that moon did not motivate me in the right way at all.
Also didn't help that I never found the song of slow time.
But I got an N64 just to play it at one of my low points after I dropped out of college. And it was one of the most formative gaming journeys I've ever had.
You know how everybody's made a Dark souls saved me video? That was Majora's Mask for me.
The moment you first get to the *spoiler* and the questions the four *spoilers* ask you are still etched into my brain like nothing else.
I recently played Bioshock Infinite for the first time and while I easily recognized what the story lacked I did appreciate what was there. I am also very aware that the glorification of experiences in the past is very common because you experience it with the person you were then, and in some cases we're talking about a 10-15 years younger version of yourself. So in my experience it is usually enough to curb your expectations based on knowing this will be the case and enjoy the older titles both for what they were for you then and how you experience them now.
nostalgia is one hell of a drug
I was hugely moved by Infinite at the time. I was at a low point and one of its themes (chasing a ghost of redemption) hit me really hard. I appreciate your critical take. As much as I want to replay it, I think I'll keep it as a fond memory.
Dude just play it again the game didn't change this guy is just an idiot. Don't get your opinions from other people make your own.
This is really interesting because it's a conversation I've had with my best friend many times. I regularly go back to play my favorite games while he hates doing it because he often times ends up hating them. For me I appreciate having an up-to-date understanding of my favorites, but I also tend to be more forgiving of older games because I understand the context they were released in.
A very interesting idea. I find that many times when I try to replay a game, I simply don't finish. In 9/10 cases, the magic isn't there for me anymore. When the mystery is gone, there's no hook to keep me playing through the whole experience.
For similar reasons I tend to find the start of a game the most fun. I have replayed the first bit of botw, Hollow Knight, Skyrim and others quite a couple of times, but it loses its charm partway through. Only giving myself additional tasks or challenges can keep me going a bit longer (specific weapon sets in BotW or Steel Soul in Hollow Knight for example)
I feel like that's a part of the storytelling (through both writing and through the experience itself) that we just gotta accept. Some magic is gonna disappear as the magic trick is explained.
While some works can be enjoyed again and again due to "timeless" values (beautiful painting, nice action scenes, great music,...), exploration and mystery still drive us humans most strongly after all.
bioshock infinite is probably my most replayed game ever. i have about 200 hours of playtime in this game and i still come back for another round every year.
You don't know how happy this makes me. I replayed the sly trilogy and it still had that magic even though I knew everything coming at me. I also played/replayed ocarina of time again. Both still were amazing experiences and while I know they aren't perfect. As an adult, I'm patient with flaws because I know that nothing will be perfect. There are games ill never replay. Heck I don't have time to play new games coming out. But when I have that weekend and I just want to crush through something, it's still great and knowing it's not just my nostalgia makes it that much better.
Nothing has been lost if you can still remember how a game made you feel originally even if you don't feel the same way when you play it now. The fact that it amazed you once will never change. No longer being amazed by it doesn't retroactively override your previous experience with it.
I love infinite, even replayed recently and still liked it. I do not remember it being received as well as you said though
I agree with your criticisms of it too, it's just a special game to me
Yeah for sure it was not all that rosy back in the day. Maybe the critics praised it and it must have been a solid 8/10 but on Reddit and such there was a LOT of valid critique towards the metaphysics and the faux-philosophical nature of the game. Plus most considered, and still considers Bioshock 1 the better, definitive Bioshock experience.
Despite its flaws, the way it's doing things that nobody has even tried to replicate I think still elevates Infinite to a special status. It was like this way back, and still is.
@@ztsb_koneko it’s funny because I just played them all for the first time without knowing any of the discourse around the games and it feels like Bioshock 1 might be remembered by most with rose colored glasses haha. They were all great games and I loved them for different reasons. The first game puts you in a world that is so interesting and unique, the second perfects the gameplay of the first game and honestly makes it hard to go back, and infinite hits you with a completely new world and a more emotional story. I am not one to get up in arms because the many worlds theory in infinite isn’t logically sound though. I think it’s a little silly to pick apart a story of a fast paced shooter and complain when it isn’t airtight. I loved the game and story.
Loving a game despite its flaws is totally valid and cool
My memory of the game was it getting trashed for being a senseless mess with no rhyme or reason to the plot and no way to understand or predict any of the twist the "came out of nowhere", then going through and predicting every single major twist within the first handful of levels based primarily on the environmental storytelling of the lighthouse and the "this time" talking of the mysterious twins.
@@ztsb_koneko don’t really get the back half of your message here. Nobody tried to make Infinite because 1) all of the criticisms you laid out were apparent to most and 2) it was the third and final game in an extremely specific series with a “house style” and 3) it was one of the last years of gaming that you could actually put out a prestige-drama game flooded with combat sections and still get critical reception for it. I mean Dishonored released a year prior and is significantly better in world and gameplay design. Two years later we get Witcher 3 which makes Infinite seem almost childish in comparison. A year after Infinite releases we have the great Dark Souls revenge tour where its greatness is becoming a mainstream revelation. And like Raz said, TLOU came out later the same year and basically changed AAA gaming forever. Why would anyone pick to follow Infinite’s legacy when the entire industry was already moving past it, onto bigger and more sophisticated things?
The fact of the matter is that Infinite was not something new and breathtaking. It was a farewell tour of a decidedly post-Half-Life-2 style of forced perspective prestige narrative shooter that was actively dying off.
I had the opposite experience with BioShock Infinite. I just recently played it for the first time, and I loved it! It's actually my favorite BioShock game, and I'd go as far as to say that it helped me appreciate the series even more! I think it was the perfect send-off to the Ken Levine trilogy. Best of luck to Cloud Chamber Studios for BioShock 4, they've got massive Big Daddy shoes to fill.
Sometime back in 2016 or so, I was milling about in a gamestop trying to decide between spending my 20 bucks on Bioshock Infinite or Dark Souls. I ended up talking with a couple of the employees about the choice and asked which one they thought I should get and they both instantly said Dark Souls. Having played both now I can absolutely see why.
I literally had this same experience upon replaying Bioshock Infinite recently, so I’m glad I’m not the only one. It’s strange how some games just are better played once, really intriguing topic as always!
Personally I find it’s better to vicariously play games again by watching someone else do it. That’s how I started watching Joseph Anderson’s streams for Outer Wilds! (Yes I see you in chat ❤)
have u considered that you have Wrong Opinion disease...... it's a critical condition im afraid
No such thing as a wrong opinion.
Bioshock Infinite still holds a place in my heart but it certainly had some flaws, and the 180 plot twists weren't well explored enough on Daisy, Luteces, and Burial at Sea for me to not have a bad taste in my mouth about them. But the Comstock twist certainly stuck with me.
the conclusion + message of this video caught me off guard with its thoughtfulness and refusal to pick one side of this false dichotomy we often put on ourselves when it comes to media analysis. this was heartening and made me a little emotional, thank you
BioShock games are like their premise. They look awe inspiring on the outside, but the more you get familiar with them the more everything just seems off. Glad some people are finally coming around to that
I had a similar experience with some movies and TV shows (Friends went from one of my favorite shows to barely giving me a single chuckle per episode), but I don't see it as bad. It's a part of growing up and for every disappointment, there are several artworks which I appreciate way more on rewatch/replay. Those which stand the test of time and reveal hidden depths are the truly great ones.
Shadow of the Colossus came to mind many times while watching this. That game has lived in my mind as an unbelievably amazing title and any time I've replayed it has lived up to that. Love that game so much
You see, I played that game around the time of its release because of all the rave reviews. The colossus fights were a very interesting and unique mechanic, but there was so much in between those that was incredibly boring and pointless. Just vast stretches of empty land and it ruined the appeal of what the game excelled at. I never understood how people held that game in such high regard, but I really wanted to.
@@Amins88 Its because the build up to Avion who is the 5th boss is one of the greatest in gaming history and the really subtle details the game puts into its story telling and how it let's us come up with our own interpretations.
@@Amins88 Because some people appreciate the use of quiet reflection. There's a place for permanent unending action, but the point of the open world game is that your setting isn't just slices of time sewn together, but showing that there is an underlying setting that holds it all together.
Just like GTA has huge stretches of time between missions (though I feel Rockstar has the same issues you're talking about, where the openness and lack of video game conveniences can be really excessive at times), SotC creates a contrast between violent action set pieces and quiet environment. Without the space in-between, the tension of finding the Colossi and preparation exploring it's environment, it would be a fairly straightforward action game with a neat climbing mechanic. Instead, all of the game fits together more neatly, as opposed to random disconnected biomes, and you aren't constantly forced into some sort of UI to get around.
It's fine to not enjoy SotC, but the issue you're talking about is the fundamental concept behind every open world game or RPG, where they're more than just one thing ad nauseam. Just in this case, it's less busy town, and more environmental.
@@AusSP The quiet moments between are important, but SotC had absolutely nothing engaging there. GTA has a living, breathing world to experience. Breath of the Wild has a beautiful landscape to interact with in countless different ways. SotC has a giant bland field to gallop across. I don't need enemies to fight or things to collect. I just need an engaging world to exist in. And that game's world just felt like an unfinished asset. At least from what I experienced before I gave up out of boredom after three bosses.
@@Amins88 ...The PS2 one? PS3 port? PS4 remake?
There's more than just a field.
The most heartbreaking part about Bioshock Infinite is the ending.
Not because of what actually happens in it, but because it opened the door to the franchise becoming a great anthology series. "There's always a man, there's always a lighthouse, there's always a city." Then the DLC slammed that door shut and the studio went under.
I wish we could return to rapture 🥲 imagine a modern graphics rapture with a whole new story.. maybe even a different parallel universe rapture where things happen differently. Maybe even a rapture that takes place in the 70as or 80s or 90s. See how far the tech advanced in rapture would've cool.
@@randybobandy9828God I hate Burial at Sea
@@randybobandy9828 I'd be a bit worried if Bioshock 4 was in Rapture, because in all the universes, where anything is possible, I'd be a little bit disappointed if it chose the same place 2.5 games were in. Of all the places they could envision, there are so many rich unexplored things out there - whether American, or British or French or whatever.
The point of Daisy Fitzroy was that revolutionaries usually end up being worse than what they are replacing.
I also loved Bioshock Infinite and, at the time, it belonged to the trifecta of 'Daddening' video games with a heavy story focus: Bioshock Infinite, Telltale's The Walking Dead and the Last of Us. In all three you play the gruff male hero whose story revolves around protecting the young daughter figure.
I wonder how well the others hold up and how an intertextual reading with a retrospective of that specific time of the early 2010s would turn out
And 2 of those games also starred Troy Baker! Dude was absolutely busy at the time!
The Walking Dead game holds up a lot better than Infinite and, in my opinion, even still more than The Last of Us
"a retrospective of that specific time of the early 2010s" bruh you must be 12
10 years isn't enough time for an entire analysis of how human culture changed
@@stitchfinger7678 10 years is more than enough time for the entire gaming landscape to completely change, which it has.
Walking Dead Season 1 is still a fantastically written and emotional story. The gameplay is super annoying, but it was on release as well.
The important difference between this and Infinite is that Infinite's story was never as good as it should have been and it a masterclass in how not to write a plot, whereas the walking dead only has the one thing going for it, so they made it matter.
I started to become more critical to older games I loved when I started to study game design and working as a game dev, I was so focused on analyzing every single detail and it ruined a couple of games for me too. But recently I tried to play games in the context of the time of release, like, what did they do that was awesome and not seen before, and I try to appreciate what the game offers, it's a hard mindset to change.
It's hard to change because you are critical of your view.
To be honest, I don't ever view games made back in that year, but try to enjoy what it is instead.
Replaying Assassin's Creed 2 broke my heart. I realized I will never feel the wonder of exploring Renaissance Italy ever again (at least not in the same way). I miss that.
In a weird way before I replayed the Ezio trilogy again I thought that the first was the best, Brotherhood fun, and Revelation was alright, after I replayed them I enjoyed Brotherhood and the first one the least, Revelations is now my favorite and I feel it’s because I vibe more with older Ezio
I was so disappointed at BioShock not being System Shock 3, that I never got around to actually playing any of the games. Perhaps I will, one day.
One of the things I enjoy is actually going back and discovering old games that I never played when they were released. I didn't play Super Metroid until a decade after its release, for example, but it was a great experience regardless.
So I'm in no rush to play all the games. The passing of time, and evolution of games in general, may actually allow me to experience old games in a more "timeless" manner.
5:49 i absolutely love this moment of your script, great storytelling, reminded me of cinematography and how to keep pace, interest and subverting expectacions while keeping suspense or keeping the viewers attention or even increasing their concentration on what you are going to show/say.
im gonna watch more of your videos now, if the topic interests me or not does not matter, i simply enjoy your way of storytelling.
(edited a typo)
The Ezio trilogy remains in a special place in my heart. Played it when Xbox 360 was still around, when I was a child and hadn't faced some stuff that changed me as a person. It was when I was still just a child, who was having fun playing around, putting on a hoodie and pretended I was part of the creed. Sometimes I miss that time, and it's why it still is special to me. I won't try to change it, and even though I've wanted to replay it, I think it's best to leave it as a memory and love letter to my childhood.
Treasure what you had and what you have, time is always running.
I miss Ezio. Requiescat In Pace.
Things this made me think about:
1. You're focused in this video on the downside of changing as a person and growing to be more critical in how you approach games, but the opposite is almost certainly true. Games you could not have hoped to grasp the value of at the time are almost certainly waiting to be seen by you with new eyes.
2. I think the memory you have of those old games is still valuable, especially if you are a game developer yourself. Discovering that Bioshock Infinite isn't the game you thought it was leaves the door open for someone to develop that game you thought you remembered.
3. Even after having updated your takes on a game that was once important to you, you still have those memories of how and why it was important to you then. Nothing takes that away from you. I have a lot of games that were super important to me years ago that I would warn any friend I had off playing for the first time (lookin' at you, Soul Reaver!) Does this mean I feel like my memories of the supreme importance Soul Reaver held for me around its launch belong in the trash now? No. It just means I'm not going to benefit from further playthroughs. That's ok.
This is one of the most valuable comments I have seen on this video. I feel like the overall tone is just way too negative for me.
@@mcgoldenblade4765 I don't think he's wrong for having experienced it this way. It hits a person in waves just how impermanent the world is, even yourself. The way we talk about the world and ourselves leaves a false impression of permanence and the shock that comes from realizing it ain't so is not so unlike the moment when kids realize someday their mom will die. The idea that you will only be you as you currently understand yourself at most for like a decade is weird and confusing until you've done it enough times.
@@paxtenebrae I totally understand. I just think it's way too easy to focus on the negatives of change and growing up. We focus too much on the things we've lost than the things we've gained. I don't blame anyone who thinks that way, I just think it's important to have that different perspective.
Really good comment. Number 3 was my thought exactly when I watched the first third and Number 1 comes to my mind when I think of my recent Super Mario Galaxy replay. It is great to see a game you enjoyed as a child and can applause the game design later on when you have developed a more analytical look with more game experience to compare to.
Some things are meant as a once in a lifetime journey and/or experience. Certain games and other forms of media fall under this category as well. Prime example would be the original Mass Effect trilogy, which I played about almost a decade after they first released. That journey, with *MY* specific Shepard, created so many beautiful and painful memories, that I will forever cherish them in the way I first (originally) experienced them. That is why I will never replay that trilogy, even though it was one of the most impactful media/cultural experiences I’ve ever had. Replaying it would not only diminish the fun and ‘’wow factor’’, but it would also destroy all those precious *original* memories.
Sometimes it is better to reminisce the original moment, instead of trying to recreate that ‘’same’’ experience at a later point in time.
I played the ME trilogy about 5 times by now, everytime fantastic. I can not agree with you, sorry.
To each his own but I also disagree with the sentiment. Over the years I've replayed through the trilogy at least a dozen times and each playthrough was different, changing your gender makes a difference, who you romance can change your outlook, your background can change your views, the specific event that made you "famous" as well, and of course paragon/renegade system. And all that without even mentioning the 6 different classes that completely change your gameplay.
The entire trilogy is one of the most replayable games I've had the pleasure of experiencing.
I found that all the games I still love, that I played a long time ago are games that aren't story driven. The Sims 2, Titan Quest and Morrowind are all games I go back to from time to time and still massively enjoy them. The exploration and freedom in what I can do with my characters is still fun and I end up putting many hours into those games every couple of years.
why sims 2 over sims 3?
That suggests John Carmack was right about stories in games. I’ve always agreed with him. Except The Last of Us, I can’t think of a game that I’ve liked because of its story, and that was ruined with the sequel. I also haven’t replayed it, as I’ve had a desire to do so, and that’s not because of the sequel.
@NoNameAtAll2 bc sims 2 is great?? Like, don't get me wrong, Sims 3 is also fantastic, but like... sims 2 is so quirky and fun. I'm not the original commenter, but I play Sims 2 often, especially because it was a childhood game I used to play often. I didn't play Sims 3 at all as a kid due to a variety of reasons, so I never got that nostalgic attachment to it. I'm sorry if my comment comes across as rude or uncalled for, I just sorta don't understand this idea that Sims 3 is basically... the only sims game worth playing. Sims 2 is a good game. That's probably why the original commenter is playing it. Plus like, nostalgia.
@@BeeTeaBoi having played both 2 and 3, I feel like 3 is direct continuation of progress
where 2 was good, 3 is great
where 2 puts limits, 3 opens wide world for you
I know sims 1 is cherished because it was about building the house, first and foremost. With later games moving focus onto characters themselves
and 4 has been a large regression both in performance and abilities
but 3 being 2++ makes 2 odd choice other than nostalgia, which covers and explains everything, for it is good
Titan quest is great. Been playing the game off and on since it came out. If you still play I highly recommend the underlord mod
Its ok to acknowledge how much you loved a game back in the day and how great it is based on that while also admitting it isn't as fun to play nowadays. Both things can be true.
Appreciate your memories for what they are. Just memories.
Me @ kingdom hearts 2
This entire video is like people saying Seinfeld is boring and uncreative.
Like, yeah, it seems that way 30 years after it was groundbreaking.
Like Majora's Mask
Funny enough I had the exact oposit reaction with OoT and MM. Replaying OoT I still felt like it's a good game but it pulled me in way less because of how many games after it tried to emulate it. With MM I still had the same feeling of wonder and that weird creepy feeling you get from playing it. I guess it's because MM was and is a special game in the way it plays and feels.
Same here! Playing OoT feels like homework to me now. The game is very tedious in how it has no real mechanics, everything is just waiting for an opening with zero player agency.
MM I've replayed many times in my teens, my 20s, and my 30s, and it still always fills me with excitement. The controla definitely are *a thing* sometimes, but everything else about the game is so great that I've always been able to look past it.
Yeah OoT just feels so basic. For anyone who played Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess first it doesn't really bring anything new to the table. I find its level and world design especially weak, and as I typically find the core appeal of a game to be exploring its environments it really kills the experience.
Imagine not going back to Final Fantasy 8 and being excited every time you get shot into space to save Rinoa. So silly.