Volkswagen Wants To Beat Tesla and lead The Electric Vehicle Market -- But Does It Have A Chance?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2017
- Volkswagen might be coming out of the Dieselgate scandal still, but it’s determined to set itself up as a major automaker that can do anything any other automaker can. Including lead the world in electric vehicles.
So much so that this week, Volkswagen executives were yet again ramping up the rhetoric, claiming that Volkswagen could do anything that Tesla could -- but better.
It’s all too easy to laugh these claims off as implausible, especially given how little traction Volkswagen has right now in the electric vehicle marketplace. But could it succeed or not? And what hurdles lie ahead?
Watch the video above to find out more, leave your thoughts in the Comments below, subscribe to our TH-cam channel, and support us via Patreon at / transportevolved .
~-~~-~~~-~~-~
Please watch: "2023 Kia Niro EV: Why You'll Want To Drive This"
• 2023 Kia Niro EV: A Fa...
~-~~-~~~-~~-~ - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![[TH] VCT Masters Shanghai Playoffs DAY 3 // FNC vs FUT | EDG vs PRX](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pw2T5v0ogDI/mqdefault.jpg)
I hope they are serious. We need more electric cars in the road. Tesla doesn't need to be the largest manufacturer to remain viable. Remember the mission statement by Elon; to spur the advent of electric cars and change the world.
That's actually one of the things I love most about Tesla. Elon, at least on the surface, doesn't claim to care if Tesla is super profitable. He just wants to disrupt the current model and accelerate the transition. If those are indeed his true motives, I'd buy one of his cars.
Elon has said in his own interviews that he is amazed Tesla is still in business. I honestly think he would like nothing more than to have the mega car corporations take over the large quantity EV manufacturing. Then his initial plan for Tesla will have been fulfilled.
I am too considering they have yet to turn a profit.
woodrax , I think he is amazed that no one else has challenged and out-competed Tesla in the EV market and that Tesla is still top dog for the foreseeable future despite VW's claim. The idea that Elon would welcome a large auto company to absorb Tesla is ... at a loss for words here! A week after acquisition Tesla as a company would be split up, gutted, sold off in pieces. Musk's dream's would be gone.
M Mercury Yeah, I think that Tesla has a better chance of long term survival if another Silicon Valley company, say Google or Apple, were to purchase them. Considering the liquid cash that those companies have, and their respect for technological progress and innovation, I would guess they would allow Tesla to survive, in most areas, with few changes. But I think the risk of Elon taking over at the upper most Executive positions, due to his disruptive and innovative ideas, will never allow that to happen.
You made a mistake when you said Tesla is making a loss. Actually if you read the q1 2017 report you would see they make a 27% profit on every car made! its just they use this and any other money they can get there hands on to expand the Tesla business. They are investing in future Profits, Why Accountants call this money a loss i dont know? some of it is lost due to devaluation of Machinery etc but most of the re-invested money will contribute to tomorrows profit. I dont see telsa making an overall profit until 2030 at least, as they will continue investing every penny until all the infrastructure is completed world wide.
That's a good point.
Well, they do calculate that profit by excluding research and development cost. Other car manufacturers include that into the calculation. Lets face it, Tesla is a great EV brand and has a charismatic CEO. And yes, they are years ahead on the battery front. However, compare it with the manufacturing power and financial results of VW, they sold 2.5 million cars in the first quarter this year, earning a profit of close to 3.4 billion euro after taxes (or 3.7 billion US$), they have over 23 billion € cash on hand (without the need to ask their shareholders for more) and already huge manufacturing capacities in Europe, South America, Africa, Russia, China, the US and Mexico as well as India.
If they decide, and apparently they already did, to switch part of their manufacturing capacity towards EVs they do have the market power to surpass Tesla very very fast in production numbers, while maintaining or increasing their profibatility. They will produce, for quite some time, EVs and ICE vehicles side by side, and why not, they do have the experience in the ICE market, as long as it sells, why not capitalize on that?
AArdy AArdvark Why not? Because ICE cars are more quickly destroying our biosphere.
They make a gross profit but a net loss. Gross profit is the difference between marginal cost and sell price. Marginal cost is defined as "the cost of making one extra unit" which in reality means the materials and labor needed to make a unit once you have all the production machinery in place.
Net profit however is what a company needs to survive. That is the gross profit minus all the other costs a company has, from R&D, production line investments, offices, sales staff and more. Tesla has a lot of costs in this area, that is why they are making a loss.
a net loss is still a loss. share holders need to know these things. money isn't infinite.
VW's vehicles doesn't look bad at all. They would make great EV's, but that is if they even try to.
I love watching your videos, Nikki! I never get tired of them.
Marvincent Acuña
EVs and 20th century concepts of what a good car should be and look like are strange bedfellows.
VWs electric concept car looks like a non-working mock up, but it looks better than the stupid BMW production unit with the grafted on non functional grill ovals. Chevy has created 2 EVs that look a little odd, but not so much as to jar auto buyers pre-conceived ideas.
I just wish that their builders would turn to LG and Hotpoint. Start building the car versions of new major kitchen appliances. Use materials that are less expensive to build with but look nicer, reduce production steps, raise the price point and sell them as "premium" energy efficient appliances with a 10-15 year expected service-free lifetimes.
Marvincent Acuña - That vw ebus looked kinda cool. =)
Fat bitch has no idea what she is talking about, VW survive ? Hahahahahah, look at the profit they made
Hmm... The name calling seemed a little bit unnecessary. Just a tiny little bit unnecessary. Almost a little bit unnecessary...
The E up is not cheaper than an 41 kw Renault Zoe, how could they possibly beat Tesla if they cant beat Renault?
It probably depends on the market. In Denmark the VW e-Up is $27,425 and the Renault ZOE 41kWh is $43,775. Both are base listing prices here.
Forget price. Think about cost of ownership.
Your could build a house out of cardboard cheaply. Repairing it after each rainstorm would be expensive. Frame houses have higher prices, eventually lower cost of ownership than cardboard for the same base design..
Romeo Sierra You compare apples to oranges. The Zoe is only cheaper if you rent the battery. In Switzerland, they also sell the battery for an additional 10.000 (36.300 CHF base price).
+pssst3 Sure, but the Renault Zoe and the VW e-Up are probably similar in their cost of ownership. Either way we don't really know the full life-cycle, since neither company has had electric cars released for long enough, and each their fleet is probably also too small to have high accuracy data for expected cost of ownership.
Yes it depends on the Market. Total cost of ownership ist higher for an E Up were i live. The energy wast by the VW Charger is my daily commute to work and home same shit as BMW used in the i3. The VW Up Battery wont last over 30% the Mailage of the Renault Zoe 41kw.
I don´t own a Zoe i have got a 2012 and 2015 Leaf and they are so reparable i will buy the next gen Leaf.
A company doesn't need to show regard for anything that doesn't make them profit - except laws. They didn't do that and THAT's the scandal. Just phrasing, I know, but seems important.
the michelin-type active wheel technology is very impressive. that's where each wheel has its own hub motor, so you don't need a transmission, drive shaft, differential, etc.. saves a lot of weight, which helps the range.
I'm a bit confused about how "profitable" building an electric car is determined/defined. Tesla says its "gross margin" on the S and X is about 27%, i.e, that the cost in material and labor to build&sell one is 73% of the selling price. So they are not losing money in the making and selling of the cars; in fact they are making a profit on the cars The "loss" comes from all of the investments they are making to be able to build more cars; the "loss" comes from how you treat those investments on a per car built basis. GM on the other hand, seems to be actually spending more to physically build the Bolt than they can sell it for, producing a true loss for every Bolt they build and sell. I suspect VW is going to have to work hard to not end up in the GM position.
i will believe it when i see it.
I'll be suspicious even then, wondering what hidden shortcomings and defects are in those products.
I don't trust VW or Chevy. I drive a Prius. I also have no love for Nissan. Tesla and Toyota for me. Actually, Toyota spent some money with Elon Musk and Elon is very appreciative of Toyota's investment in his company along with Mercedes and he even brought it up at one of his shareholder meetings thanking them both for their support. Elon is a really humble engineer and that's what makes his brand attractive along with his desire to "look at the future and not be sad".
The Toyota story is all about Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. I hope they succeed. I don't see any reason why we can't have both systems. Future cars won't care much about more than the most economical way to get from point A to B, because robots AKA, autonomous vehicles, don't seem to care much about these things.
It is very possible that my 2 year old grandson will never get a driver's license. Do you remember how quickly computer technology evolved over 20 years, say 1980 to 2000? This same thing will happen with autonomous cars and I think much faster in the trucking industry. If you drive for a living, now is the time to retrain for the future, the near future.
Drake, I've read that Toyota is reconsidering their hydrogen play and are working on electrics again. I wonder if VW's decision has caused a change in thought.
Thanx for the great video's Nikki!👍
I agree with a lot of the comments here, any increased EV manufacturing by ANY company is a good thing! I am however getting bored of their endless concept cars with very little sign of action - all talk comes to mind!
Hello Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield enjoy this video on Volkswagen do you have a link of you driving the VW from this episode, thanks.
It's all a question of will. Does VW want to sacrifice its 5% margin on ICE cars, in order to produce unknown margin electric cars? YES, Tesla makes about 27% (GAAP) profit on every Model S and X sold... and even on the Model 3 it'll make at least 25%, BUT that's after a GIGA-investment in all the factories.
IMO Tesla will continue to lose money (reinvesting all the profits and borrowing more) until the Model Y and Tesla Semi go into mass production.
If VW wants to make good electric cars, then they also need a HUGE investment, after which they'll make even less profit than Tesla ... unless they start with a car, which is easier to manufacture than Model 3 and Y... but none of the prototypes we've seen from VW fall into this category unfortunately...
ok, maybe i didn't use the proper terminology, but you can understand my point, if you want to :)
VW has to prepare for the day the internal combustion engines are obsolete. Once electro-magnetism is better understood the advancement will happen. The problem is too many educated in mechanical engineering welding and geology and not enough educated in electrical engineering to move forward into the future.
And the interest is on the money they borrowed to build the factory etc. I borrowed money to build our house, and have to pay interest on that money. Does that invalidate the house that resulted?
No; but the house has value that goes into a calculation of my overall networth, minus my debts. I purchased an asset, which may grow in value in time. Elon purchased a factory and equipment which over time can and will (I believe) produce profits sufficient to make the company "profitable" under the present accounting rules. In fact, the cars are already profitable in themselves. It the cars were not, it would be a different situation.
@samuel I have to disagree about batteries. They will replace all fuel burning sooner or later, BUT it won't necessarily be Li-ion batteries... could be supercapacitors or some other, more advanced battery cell.
Always a great commentary, thank you.
When there is more mainstream affordable EV:s in a in a few years people will realize that it is way better than ICE cars. The charging infrastructure will be built quickly. We will all be annoyed that the manufacturers don't agree on one standard for charging. If VW are not serious about EV they will be left behind like all others that does not realize this. The EV is to the ICE car that the car was to the horse 100 y ago... That is the future I believe will come to pas much faster than the average dude think.
If you don't want everybody to own a Tesla in 10 - 15 y, then start producing EV:s that people want.
Grate You Tube cannel by the way!
Without a gigafactory it's all bunch of vaporware it went to comes to affordable and reliable cars. VW has dropped the ball long time ago I have at least 10 friends that have absolute nightmare experience with VW
Nikki, you miss the point.Tesla Motors is the spark, the inspiration for the electric transportation at the street level. Tesla wants clean, green cars for a clean, green environment, and for this the people of this planet should thank Tesla. Meanwhile the batteries will evolve, their capacity and speed of recharge will increase. The material used to build batteries will be cheaper. The batteries which now account for 30% or 40% from the cost of EV will become perhaps 10% or 15% only. Oil will not be the main driving energy of the automotive industry, but it will be used to make plastic parts for the same industry and many other.
There are few plastics or hydrocarbon fuels that couldn't be made from cellulose as a base material if the cost of electricity was low enough.
+pssst3 look up Ford. They built a car body out of hemp of all materials so you are correct!
1. To quote a German proverb, "Der Weg zur Hölle ist mit guten Voraussetzungen gepflastert." (The way to Hell is paved with good intentions.)
2. VW wouldn't even be talking about electric vehicles if they hadn't screwed up so magnificently with diesels.
3. Their build quality has been spotty at best for years.
Bottom line, I doubt they're serious about EV's and even if they do produce a mass-market one in 7-8 years it will take a lot of convincing for me to buy one.
You just got another Patron supporter. Keep up your good work and positive attitude.
Being born a Vokswagen driver for all my life except I am driving a Mitsubishi i-MiEV right now, I have chosen VW because wherever you went in Germany there was a VW garage right around next corner. Today I no longer need a garage for my car any longer and that garage around the corner does not have an idea about electric cars at all.
The trouble VW is facing right now is about surviving the next 2 or 3 years. They can promise anything - those who come to rescue VW will have to deal with it. Will there be silly people enough to buy diesels for the comming 2 or 3 years?
Good video, but I was hoping there would be more information on the new VW camper. Got my hopes up.
The thing is VW makes it for money (otherwise the emmision disaster would have never happened). Elon Musk on the other had seems to be sincerely concerned about the eviroment.
I would rather buy a tesla just to support the cause
The markets for VW and Tesla autos are totally different as well as the corporations. Tesla is a Lithium futures company in the special order luxury "art- car" business and custom-solar industries as marginally-if-at-all profitable end-users of their futures investments while VW is a successful vehicle designer and manufacturer, marketer and distributor.
First of all, you can still make a profit if you don't comply with applicable laws and regulations. It just depends on the cost of violating them. E.g. brand damage, fines etc. For instance, there's companies that sell products that doesn't actually work as advertised, but still manage to get a profit after having been through all the lawsuits. Usually these companies vanish after the first few lawsuits and then start again as a different name, with new products (or at least new labels).
Second of all, I don't agree that corporations exist entirely to create wealth for their owners. That function is only the norm because that is the main reason that people invest in a company. But investing to make a change is also a fairly common practice.
Thirdly, VW is just like most well-established companies. They push things to the very limit of what they can in order to survive/beat the competition. It's not necessarily a bad strategy - it's usually just a low-risk strategy.
And lastly, it should be noted that Tesla has been getting a ~20 % gross margin for 4 years now. They don't turn a profit because they invest much more than they profit, in research and development.
Right. In a sense, Tesla is temporarily a non-profit organization. Although usually non-profit organizations commit to never making a profit. And the "non-profit" label also carries a cultural load of some lack of seriousness. Not to mention that there's legal differences in many countries. I would imagine these are partly the reason that Elon didn't go for the non-profit label.
Exactly and this is why I would not consider a Tesla. I am not convinced they are going to stick around as an auto maker. I also do not want to be left with an expensive electric brick in my garage when something invariably breaks on it (which it will given enough time and Teslas known build quality issues).
Interestingly, that's not entirely true. Non-profits are allowed to issue stocks in some states and countries. An example:
lawforchange. org/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=2346
forbes. com/sites/lauriebennett/2012/03/02/who-knew-that-cato-had-shareholders/
But you're definitely right that Tesla wouldn't be able to do what they've done, if they had registered as not-for-profit.
I think your argument about affordability is flawed. Tesla is building their own batteries, other manufacturers are not going to jump through the hurdles that Tesla has done to ensure that they can build at a lower cost. While battery cost has gone down R&D still has to be paid for. I can't see any car brand saying they are going to build more affordable electric vehicles when the reality will likely be that battery costs will pretty much be the same amongst the different car brands, (with the exception of Tesla who as I said builds their own). If we assume that the cost to buy batteries is let's say $7000.00US per vehicle I can't foresee any brand retailing a vehicle for under 30K. As Elon has stated it all comes down to "economics of scale".
VW see electric cars as another route to higher profits from Tesla business model. They don't care about the environment they only see it as a means of good PR..
I have 1984 VW Golf 2 too. It's like yours, Silver, but with 5 doors. :)
The Achilles heel of EV's is the battery. It's the most expensive part. Tesla is addressing this by moving the battery production in house to better control costs. Being able to tweak things like cell size to optimize energy density is a huge advantage. For automakers whose business is petroleum powered vehicles, EV's tear apart the 100 year old business model.
In other news, business makes outlandish claims!
The VW bug became popular because it was a cute, easy to maintain, cheap, vehicle. Since then cars have suffered from feature creep.
Electric cars have the potential to be simple vehicles because of fewer moving parts, but the engineers and consumers have become entranced with bells and whistles that use more electricity and are very difficult to maintain.
Very interesting and bonus points for including a Rabbit pun.
I hadn't heard that Volkswagen made "wellbuilt, reliable cars". Their ICE powertrains were anything but. By the time they bring their EV's to market, well, it won't likely be in my lifetime so I won't worry about it.
VW will be dying first! But that's not likely either. After dieselgate, the dealers were finally allowed to sell affected cars off of the lots and there have been as many as 10 potential buyers for some of these 2 year old "diesel" cars! Go figure! We know what they are going to do for their next trick.
Pity Tesla's build quality is so SHIT for all that money you'd have to pay.
Fast-forward to spring 2018, a weird situation: I can have my Model 3 (long-range version) in 3 - 6 weeks -- but I can't find an e-Golf in a VW dealership anywhere in northern New Jersey. Situation reversed: Tesla is available, VW is not.
The fact that the E-Golf is more expensive than the Model 3 is the problem. I want a small hatch like the E-Golf but cheaper and a decent rage because 160KM is embarrassing.
The problem is that VW cars are still more expensive than brands like Renault and Nissan, who have the same idea to reduce costs. Everything is up for grabs for whichever companies dedicate themselves to EVs the most.
You have missed one of the other interesting features about VW .... the dealer network.
I had a VW Golf GTI as a company car about 25 years ago, which I really liked.
20 years ago I bought a one year old VW Polo, from the local VW dealer, for the other half. It was nice, she liked it, but for such a small car, the running costs were high, and the "experience" from the dealer back then made me want to avoid the dealers and service.
Every now and then over the years I have been back to VW dealers as part of the buying process for a new car, but they give the impression of "us and them", between the slick sales man in the front trying to take your money, and the service department, who also want to take lots of money.
nearly 3 years ago, and again 2 years ago, I wanted to test drive an eGolf or a Golf GTe, but I couldn't even arrange to sit in one.
They could do the talk and kept calling me, but when I tried to arrange a test drive, even just to sit in a car in the showroom, the cars were never available. On one occasion the car might have been in the parking lot for the service department on the other side of the road, but no one knew where the keys were, so they suggested I drop in when I'm passing another day and may be they might have found the keys by then.
So I bought a Mitsubishi for me and a Kia for her.
We are no longer interested in anything VW say, if they actually do anything, then I might look again, in another ... 10 years?
I wouldn't be surprised that Volkswagen works out a collaboration deal with multiple manufacturers around the world on vehicles not only around the MEB platform, but also a platform for an A or B segment sized electric vehicle (VW Up! to VW Polo size). Volkswagen should also be on the forefront to develop a common charging plug standard, one based the Combined Charging System (CCS) that uses a modified SAE J1772 plug that supports both AC and DC charging.
I really like that all electric VW bus, lots of good memories when we would all pile in the back of the gas version and head to the beach back in the day. VW is headed in the right direction.
Ms. Gordon-Bloomfield, you keep saying that GM acknowledged that they are loosing money on every Bolt. Can you please provide a reference to that claim. Thank you.
VW might but you hit a few great points. I too think there is a lower EV entry level market being missed. Right now the ultra low deals on older OEM vehicles is really where it is at. Do you follow Jack Rickard? He has converted a VW bus truck thing into an EV using a Tesla drive-train. I think this might be one of the first conversions using a model S motor. I like your videos.
1:32 not to mention Renault, whose model Zoe was the most sold EV in Europe in 2015 and 2016 and will by current measure be most sold model in 2017.
It's easy to talk smack. In the long run though, it will be the supercharger network that catches them all off guard. Do you buy a X brand and have to worry about where you are going to charge it, or do you buy a Tesla which has chargers pretty much on every corner?
I think that decision will be a no-brainer.
I agree with you in that regard, though I'd also make the point that companies need to standardize the charging model if they really want EVs to catch on. Whether that's a Tesla charger, or some other, it needs to be as convenient and standard as filling up with gasoline.
That's true, but I doubt companies such as GM would be ok with their customers using a Tesla charger. For the short term (10+ years) companies will putz around with different formats even though Tesla has pretty much handed them their technology (patents) Their stubbornness will really only hurt them in the long run.
+John Salazar there will be a meeting in the not to distant future between the heads of the car industrie, and they will talk and talk and find a standard for chargers, and it will not be the Tesla one. they know when they can crush somebody, and they will crush Tesla, they will stop making cars soon after, but that doesnt change anything for EVs.
+Dallen Baldwin; Standard for fast charging is there: CCS. In Europe there is now (May 2017) more than 3000 CCS charge points and quickly growing, far more than Tesla superchargers.
Tesla gives you an adapter so you can use other superchargers.
You have no idea on vw. It's always been range price and distance. The charge will be faster and no cable too. I'd say new battery tech coming...600km distance plus
That VW Golf CityStromer is quite easily my dream perfect car. Very jealous you got to own one, RHD too!
:)
Interesting and inforamtive as ALWAYS, however, so much so, I intend to watch it again
AT LEASE ONCE, PERHAPS TWICE more.
:)
Clearly Volkswagen sees EV production as a way to PR its way out of
"dieselgate". Interesting video!
Given that an EV has basically 1 moving part compared to the thousands of moving bits of hot metal in a combustion engine, I really can't see why costs are not coming down with the R&D largely out of the way and the scaling up of production... I would hope the GM's VW's of this World would have their R&D toolchain sorted by now. I guess they still can't bring themselves to scrapping those ICE production lines and all the money they spent on them over the decades. Something a firm like Tesla didn't have to deal with.
Volkswagen TDI engines, despite the deiselgate scandal are among the cleanest best performing diesel engines available. Their real world NOX levels are lower than nearly all other diesel passenger vehicles. 40 times a very small number is still a very small number.
Great delivery!
If VW were to build a Tesla style charging network and a 200mile family EV, I wouldn't even look at the Tesla Model 3.
When they build electric vehicles they won't need to lie about emissions. Seems odd that no one at VW has done any jail time yet
Telsla are the luxury end of the expensive market, but it's the VWs, BMWs, Toyotas and Hondas and Subarus etc. that will produce for the masses.
I find it perplexing that a German car manufacturer from a culture that tends to value, efficiency, cleanliness and environmentalism has been so reluctant to explore this area of transportation more seriously. Only on the heels of one of the largest car scandals ever, are they now trying to rehabilitate their image. I am glad that they seem to be saying the right things about future development but it will never undo the damage that their "only enough for compliance" attitude created. Maybe they can become a more significant player but they will never shake the notion that they were ""forced to do it" rather than from some greater concern for the world and its customers. Just think, all that money that has been wasted in fines and legal costs could have been much better spent on developing a good, solid electric vehicle. Instead they spend time and money finding ways to "cheat" the system and knowing bring environmentally dirty cars to the market.
Have these guys not been paying attention! they should be on the market now, not in three or for years tie. I would certainly like to see more affordable competition.
I don't understand how this Transport evolved youtube channel gets so many thumbs down! It's one of the most professional presented channels on the web regards everything EV.
Nikki has a great presenting style and I for one enjoy my regular fix of transport evolved with a cup of tea.
GM has not admitted they are losing money on every car. What they said is that they are losing money on that segment - i.e. they are not selling enough cars to cover the cost of development. If they weren't able to make even gross profit on them they would never have developed the Bolt in the first place. It's not like they haven't run the numbers before they start developing something.
The same is true of Tesla by the way.
I'm starting to see that lots of people who are new to the car world at under the assumption that luxury car companies compete with family (mainstream) car companies. They don't The Lexus CT200h is sized like a Golf. But the CT200h does NOT compete against the Golf. The CT200h competes against the A3, BMW 1 Series, Mercedes A-Class, and not much else.
Telsa is not exempt from this rule. I don't understand how people don't understand this.
The Model 3 competes against the 3 Series, C-Class, ATS, Giulia, XE, S60, TLX, IS, MKZ, A4, and Q50.
Just because the Model 3 is electric doesn't change the competition it competes with.
Saying the Bolt and Leaf compete is completely correct because they both are cars offered by family car brands. Tesla is a luxury brand. If you look at the entry level price of the cars in the class the Model 3 competes in, you'll realize Tesla is under no obligation to make it any cheaper. They could offer an A3 competitor with will inherently have a lower price than the Model 3 that will also be smaller in size.
One more thing, the Model S is NOT a full-size luxury sedan. It was debuted to the marked back in 2011 as a mid-sized luxury sedan. A competitor for the E-Class, A6, 5 Series and so on. Just because the price as matched that of the S-class does not render it a full size. Price is partly what determines the class of car, but not all of it. It's size first.
I'm tired of reading confused comments from people who don't understand car classification.
All they are doing is confusing people who want to learn. These also aren't my words or rules. These are rules that the auto industry has abided by since its inception.
Volkswagen's claims should be taken very very seriously. Despite dieselgate, VAG's profits are enormous and increasing all the time. Remember money talks and bullshit walks. In developing new EVs, VAG can outspend Tesla ,which is $3.5B in deb,t many times over. Having a grossly inflated market cap, doesn't help cash in bank at all. That's why the model 3 is life or death for Tesla. VAG has no "life or death" situations to worry about.Or need to repay $3.5B in debt.
VW is in panic mode. I hope that the diesel will die as soon as possible.
Wrong. While I am firmly convinced they should not have done that with the diesels, I also do know that everyone does it. They just pulled out VW bcs there is a war of economics.
Secondly, VW is already 100 % ready to make electric vehicles since years. As every other German car maker is.
Peter Kroll yes they already make an electric car and they will make more electric cars, that doesn't mean they will be any good!
No, obviously they are not ready. Look at the current faceliftet VW eGolf model. It's a good car but the range is still way too low. Even Renault seems to be one step ahead. The batteries are still a problem for most car makers. And VW needs at least two more years to finish the new platform for electric cars.
The EPA created the tests that determine the emissions of the vehicles tested, and VW made a car that passed the test. If anyone did anything wrong, it was the EPA for creating a dumb test that didn't actually test the vehicles emissions under actual real world conditions.
Of course, the EPA does this on purpose because they are controlled by the auto industry, right?
Otherwise, why don't they have an actual real test? Like, maybe hook sensors to the tailpipe, and have EPA employees drive the cars for a month and compare those results to the test results. Then, if there is a difference, the tests need to be fixed so that they actually test what they need to test.
In my eyes, VW did nothing wrong. They made a car that passed the tests that they were required to pass.
Terje, you nailed it. And that is what they all do, not only VW.
The potential market is big enough for at least all the current carmakers. Remember this video was posted ahead of Volvo's recent pledge as well... Everybody is moving.
the worlds leading car manufacturer commits itself to electric mobility. i think this is very positiv to all of us, no matter the outcome
EVs production problem #1 for me is the availability of batteries. That's the reason for the existence of the Gigafactory. And that's the reason why the production of electric cars is starting so slowly. Besides of that, I think any big auto maker (GM, Ford, VW, BMW, Mercedes, PSA, Toyota, etc.) can make great EVs probably better, faster and cheaper than Tesla. Well, if they really want to :)
I have been watching your videos regularly and it feels like they keep getting better and better. Your commentary about Tesla and VW's relationships with each other and with us was so true. I miss the old VW. I hope Tesla can make it through the current phase.
Renault / Nissan are probably the biggest competition to VW when it comes to EVs and so far they have been the ones to actually try to make EVs mass market. A 200 mile plus leaf out way before a decent range on a VW may put them further behind. VWs big hope is that lots of their customers (at least in the UK) are very loyal and only want an EV when it has a VW badge and more to the point the salesman actually tells them it exists. I think a further incentive to carry on selling ICE cars for dealers is that it keeps the service departments busy.
they need to bring back the full size VW Bus but full electric, that would be sweet
I think you're right that something below the model 3 will be needed to make the biggest impact. What do you think of single and dual seat three-wheeled EVs such as the Solo or Arcimoto to fill the lower end of that space?
or maybe this is the one: www.thedrive.com/news/10212/a-german-startup-wants-to-sell-this-tiny-electric-car-for-17000
We realy need a car less than $5000 !
A very fair analysis. Your points about Volkswagen AG's manufacturing capacity in particular are well taken. That is what Tesla's Elon Musk pointed to for years, even through their relationship with Daimler & Toyota. Tesla cannot _'do it all'_ themselves when it comes to replacing ICE with electric vehicles. He had counted upon the Tesla Roadster, Model S, smart ev, and RAV4 EV as being a suitable array of vehicles to act as _'PROOF of CONCEPT'_ to convince traditional automobile manufacturers they should use their manufacturing prowess and capacity to switch to fully electric in short order. I suspect he was disappointed when Daimler and Toyota countered with requests to use Tesla technology in hybrids and Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles instead. That's when Tesla realized just how much of an uphill battle they were facing. Because it doesn't matter if you show the _'BIG BOYS'_ precisely what the future is -- if they are unwilling to go there. It's been a long while, over five years now,and Volkswagen only began to seriously _(?)_ consider that electric cars should be a real part of their product line after they got caught cheating with their line of diesels. It is important to note it is that cheating that allowed them to grow profitably worldwide for years offering _'cheap'_ but profitable cars. Had they switched to electric instead three, four, five years earlier with verve, many of the challenges they currently face will have been taken care of already. Every year they delay puts them another two years behind Tesla. So yes, this announcement is at best boisterous wishful thinking. Tesla isn't going to sit on the brake, waiting for them to catch up for five-to-eight years. Those who think they might are probably smoking crack and liking it a bit too much.
I'm sick of concept cars. And I'll never buy a VW after the emissions scandal anyway!
They are all kinda bad right? I'm sure they knew there was a better way for a while now! I bought a volt because it was the best way for me to reduce my gas consumption and to have the pleasure of driving an electrified car, not because GM made it. Personally I want a Tesla so bad. It is the only pure electric vehicle that works to visit my parents from Chicago to MN that I do often. The Bolt comes close but fails due to charging stations or should I say the lack there of in one WI stretch
Good point Donald. People died over the GM coverup of a switch that would have been an easy fix but absolute greed stopped them from doing what was right. How did no one do jail time over that?
I bought a 2012 Jetta TDI and I turned it back in spring 2017. They were straightforward, paid me a fair price plus a generous restitution.
Somehow in this new world we don't reward those that admit wrongdoing and take the steps necessary to make it right. We tend to reward deniers like GM that have to be forced to do the bare minimum to make the problem go away. I replaced my VW with a VW and I'll probably always have one in my car family.
Have you driven a Ford Fusion? What a hack job. No handling, no refinement.
I've got my eye on the Golf Alltrack.
lol i saw an interview with some carprogrammer and he explained how ALL cars are designed to have a specivic low emission only on the test roads, they are programmed that the cars recoginzes if it is on a test road and only then it fullfills the emission standarts, ALL car companies do that VW did it in anothe r way, to complected to explain now, if you speak german i can show you this interview.
then u shouldn't buy any car...most of car they own
Just waiting for my Model 3 and looking forward to a Tesla pickup as well
Brilliant work. Bravo!!!!
Great video Nikki! I wouldn't count out VW. They have something that Tesla and Faraday and all the other 'new' car companies don't have and can't buy; experience. VW can make thousands of cars cheaply whenever they feel like it, and has enormous power in the parts and materials supplier marketplace. They can make the build or buy decision all day long when Tesla has to buy everything because it doesn't have an old world, well oiled supply chin to lean on. I would also say it's far more difficult to build 100,000 Golfs costing $25,000 than it it is to build 25,000 Model S's costing $100,000. Both are a route to $2.5BN in revenue, but Tesla just has more room to screw up building cars for millionaires. VW has to build reliable, low margin cars that 'real' people can afford to drive, and they have been doing it every day for 70 years. Diesel scandal aside, they didn't learn nothing in all that time. Even in their darkest days in the early 1990's, they still sold more cars in North America than Tesla has, because they were cheap and reliable. Motivations aside, if they have decided to get in to Electric Vehicles in a big way, I have no reason to doubt their ability to do so.
if they can ever make a profit they might be a force in the auto industry. currently they have very little impact.
In my opinion, it really should not take much for any of the major manufacturers to bury Tesla - so long as they put forth the energy to do it. Tesla has given them the model - something that looks good, has good range, and has good performance. What Tesla doesn't have are good prices. What the EV world needs is a true affordable car for the masses and that means something in the $20K range. Hyundai would seem to be on the right track here with the new $29K Ioniq. Let Tesla be the Ferrari or Lamborghini of the EV world, but everyone else needs to step up and offer a relatively cheap entry level car for the masses. Lastly, the mentality of the average motorist needs to change - especially here in the U.S. where people still insist on driving around in gas guzzling pickups and SUVs as their daily drivers. Until that changes, demand is going to remain relatively low.
Hello thank you for the posts and great job as always! I have a question. The folks over at Tesla time news posted yesterday said that Tesla went on record saying that they're making 27%. Gross profit on the sale of these vehicles. However in your post today you mentioned that they're selling the cars at a loss... I just wondered if someone could clarify. Thanks!
Lovelifeanmusic dw The cars are being made are at a profit per unit. However the overall balance of figures put Tesla in the red by almost 900 million. Don't forget they are still buying parts for the factory and developing new cars and trucks. Not to mention the new solar tiles or the Boring Co. Overall they are selling as many cars as can be built. Not to mention the 600 million in deposits being held in a separate account. Overall they're on target.
Lovelifeanmusic dw solar city, that's your answer. solar is a hard sell to individual home owners. I like it,but unless big home builders make it standard,it won't make as much money as other Tesla products.
James Irwin thanks so much!
The main issue regarding solar would be legislation in my opinion. Thinking of what's going on in Nevada as an example... Would you agree?
I got a feeling that this price gouging will have the full endorsement of any oil or coal industry in that state. In Australia we would call that corruption. In America you decide it's legal. As a result of things like this solar uptake in the state would be slow. Once America burns through all the coal and oil reserves of the world they will have to endorse a renewable energy policy. In the longer term only the citizens will suffer. The only hope here is that they might be planning a new solar power plant and this is funds going to that end. Otherwise it's a prime excuse to get off the grid all together.
Good analysis, clear and concise. I agree a lot of this is bravado, some of it is just trying to build up self belief.
No way will ever go back to VAG group ever, i sold my Audi A4 to get Nissan Leaf after found out my Audi have devalued significantly after diesel gate
Tesla's losses are not from manufacturing and selling its Model S and X. The losses come from R&D and manufacturing capacity increase. I'm not canceling my Tesla Model 3 order in anticipation of something that does something at some price point sometime (TBA) from VW.
The main reason we didn't have EV cars all these years isn't the lack of technology or knowledge but it's purely because oil is a very very good way to take money from people. ICEs are money eating beasts they need gas and oil changes plus they have thousands of moving parts that need replacement sooner or later (lot of maintenance) and until the engine dies you have pay the value of car 2 times in spare parts and oils and there is the noise the pollution and we still need battery for the car to start. I fully support only EV cars, i heavly doubt fuel cells will catch up anytime soon.
Thank you,,
Modern Economics especialy in the automotive sector concentrate in outsourcing thier production as much as possible. The OEMs do not want to deal with the heavy investments and uncertenty of the actual production work. Assembling and selling the finished product has a much better profit to risk relation.
Problem with that: This works only for well developed markets as the competition between the suppliers drives the cost down. The battery market especially batteries for automotive application is not. There are only a hand full of supplies that do even work together with the OEMs to build automotive battery packs. Namly LG and to a degree Panasonic. This is a monopoly and I do not need to explain what that does to the price.
OEMs need to start establishing their own production capacities. This is needed to stabilize the market and ultimately drive down the cost of the batteries.
Getting your batteries from many different suppliers to encourage competition is also possible but this is a very slow process. Never the less it is the prefered methode as this fits nicely to the pilosophy of risk managment.
This was actually a pretty pragmatic video, without over-bashing the "stinking, evil" ICEs and their drivers. One thing, though - I see why you use VAG and its "brands", but rather - they are companies. THey have not artificially developed and special brands like american companies have, just to distinguish their product lines. The have acquired COMPANIES. THey have acquired a struggling Audi, a struggling Seat, a very much struggling and almost dead Skoda, a struggling Lambo - and made them profitable. That is what the people of the Germany's south-west do best. In fact, best in Europe - they make things profitable. Anyway, cheers - and a like.
I would like to own an electric vehicle but the sticker price still holds me back.
Subs looking good Nikki...
Think about the word "profit". There are two kinds of profit for a manufacturer: gross profit and net profit. Tesla for example has one of the highest gross profits in the auto industry. This means the sell cars for more than it costs to make them but Tesla seldom shows a net profit because of their extraordinary rate of growth, over 50% per year! They are spending all of their income and more to build up their manufacturing, charging, and servicing capacities to continue to grow. By the time VW becomes the dominant BEV supplier in the world, they could be challenged in production capacity by Tesla. With volume of production comes economies of scale.that can lead to the production of ever more affordable, quality BEVs. Let's hope both companies achieve this result. One company can't change the world but they can stimulate that change.
Well put. I think vw is serious just like other manufacturers because they realize that electric cars are here to stay and are the future. But they are also of the opinion that this will be a slow change because of the limited energy capacity of batteries at this point in time. So they are starting to steer the corporate ship in that direction. I think they have been outmaneuvered here by Musk, and even a tremendous amount of effort will make it hard to catch up.
They can. They said they can do anything Tesla does. Any time I hear anyone say they can do something without actually doing it I here a subliminal "but, we chose not to" after it. The Ford CEO said the same thing and that's what I got from it. Now he is fired because he didn't do it. GM never said they could do anything that Tesla can do they just went ahead and did it. Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn never said they could build an electric car they also just went ahead and did it. Don't tell us what you can do. Show us.
Hey isn't it very easy to build an electric car. You pick a motor, build a battery pack. A company just has to WANT to do it. Right now the only reason car manufacturers want to do it is because of Model 3. Almost all makers can build an EV but they had no reason to and it's counterproductive since their primary product is a fossil fuel vehicle. The only way is for an outsider like Tesla to build viable EVs or perhaps a fallen manufacturer who is on their way out, maybe they can switch to making EVs instead. The problem with VW is that they're not dead yet, a wooden stake needs to be driven into its heart before it can truly make the transition to making EVs. Before that everything is still just a sales pitch.
goodenough battery! Solid State Battery as known otherwise is what's gonna change the world!!! I hope that battery goes mainstream as fast as possible!!!
If VW is going to be the leader in 7.5 years, they better get busy on the battery production, Tesla Gigafactory was started 3 years ago and is still not 100% complete.
VW wants to... what are they thinking? 😂😂😂😂😂
I will not believe it until I see a change in that company!
Of course everything that is wanted ALWAYS happens. Just look at our President.
VW can make very appealing cars , but question is how cheap will they get the costs down and range up enough to beat tesla
VW has a brand issue at the moment, especially in the US. Why not buy Tesla? They can put short to medium term pressure on the mid price EV market if they need to, as they can float significant losses since they are sitting on billions of cash reserves in order to sweat Tesla out. I don't love the idea, but it's arguably way easier to buy into the leadership position that it is to build into it.
I don't believe them.. even if they were serious, they are mighty slow out of the gate. Long before Dieselgate they were showing off electric dream cars. I am skeptical about anything they say.
I hope it is better than the clean diesel plan.
Volkswagen is trying to take on Tesla with THAT? Challenge accepted.
Until we get swapable batteries for cars just like power tools, there's no way I'm sitting at a recharger for 40 mins to recharge my electric vehicle. Swapable batteries is the only way electric vehicles can work same as the only way battery power tools can work. there's no way anyone would buy a power tool that you have to watch while it recharges and you can't use it.
couldn't agree more on that volkswagen might bring an e car on market for 15-20k
The first person to create a viable - revolutionary batteries will become instant billionaires. Car manufacturers are extremely desperate for something to best Tesla with...👌
My price point is a used car at about $12,000, so maybe a used Bolt or Volt in a few years.
VW in the near future will have a great advantage. The Federal tax rebates are running out for Tesla and Nissan. The model 3 starts at 35k vs 30k for the VW, subtract the 7.5k Federal rebate and you have a 12.5k price difference. The Leaf and the e-golf are on par price wise but 107 range vs 125 no contest. It is doubtful the updated Leaf with a longer range will start at the same price, but by the time they arrive the Federal rebates will be used up and the VW will have a 7.5k advantage. They have the opportunity to catchup if they are serious.
the certainly would have the resources and capacities to compete.
but as you said their mindset is to be doubted.
vw is still living in the ice bubble and is not fully convinced and therefore comitted to electrical driving.
what should have happened is that all german car brands could have developed their own gigafactory and set a standard for chargers and started to build all of it already.
but apart from some concept cars and half assed esmarts and i3s nothing has been done so far.
Thank you for your regular, smartly made and informative vids. Well done and appreciated. VW has a shot but I'm question VW's general credibility.