Thank you very much for such an absolutely excellent vid regarding my question about electrolytic vs film bypass caps. in this particular situation. The level of detail you took it to is appreciated as well, and I’m glad my assumption about the size of the film caps had some merit. Thanks again, Janos!
Thanks very much for this, I added 220uf (Silmics) to 22,000uf Mondorf AG's and it made a very worthwhile difference (the 220's were already run in, taken from a different unit), it kept the rich tonality and improved the dynamics. It brought the balance back as it had become a little too dark. Is it worth considering a 2.2uf 100V Silmic as well ?
Biggest difference would be adding the 1% value 2,200uF. At 2.2uF I'd add a film cap, that would be even better than the Elna. (If you have space.. probably not anymore for the 2.2mF and the film, but 2.2uF Elna would still add a little top end clarity.)
@@realworldaudio Great, thanks I actually have some 2.2 uf Film caps I might be able to squeeze in, I will need to use some 20-30mm leads, but I guess If I try with some low impedance (0.9mm) solid core cable, I want be adding any ESR and I guess for the analogue supply not digital ESL is not a thing. I'll give it a go
You specifically mention DACs in your explanation. I agree that DAC chip clocks operate in the MHz range so IMHO and IME bypassing an existing bulk electrolytic capacitor in the power supply with a lower value electrolytic (as you suggest approximately 1% of the larger capacitance) isn't going to address the issue. Digital ICs and analogue ICs benefit from decoupling the power supply rails with lower value capacitors (usually film or ceramic types) as close to the IC's power supply pins as is physically possible to do so. Adding 1% bulk capacitance in the power supply won't make any difference. It's a well known myth in the audiophool world.
Thank you Alan! Adding the small capacitance to the bulk supply makes sure that the supply remains uniformly capacitive throughout the working range of the ICs, and the ICs do not see a transition from capacitive supply to inductive supply at a very high frequency. Just look at what happens to the sensitive clock crystal when the inductance of the unbypassed supply interacts with the small decoupling capacitor on the leg of the IC: that creates a low pass filter, and quite likely also a very high frequency oscillator, that adds unwanted components/shifts to the clock-generated frequency. You are quite right though, we do not hear the benefits of bypassing every time - it can also make the sound quite a bit worse. It's not an automatic band aid, especially when there's a big mismatch between the cap and the bypassing cap. (Eg bypassing a poor quality cap will make things much worse, yet bypassing a high quality capacitor with another with a similar character will take it to the next level.) In all cases when I observed the rules of bypassing (as taught by my mentor) it did make an improvement for me (and many of my audio friends) that prompted me to keep experimenting with it.
Thank you Janos, Do you still have this inductive problem with caps of lower values such as those in a tube power supply in the 20-50uF range and no digital components to affect? Do you still recommend for tube power supplies? I’m guessing it is still recommended if not just to speed up the larger caps…
Yes, inductivity is at play in all caps, unless they are a perfect capacitor - which they are not. Yet, high quality film caps have negligible inductance and are close to perfect capacitors as far as audio signals are concerned. In that case it's better to distribute the capacitance with using 10 x 5uF film caps instead of a single 50uF cap, as the 5uF charges / discharges x10 faster than the 50uF cap. So, total capacitance will be same, but charge times drastically reduced (drastic increase in perceived transient speed). And prices drastically increased.... for example, that's why top Audio note speakers are so unrealistically expensive because they are doing this in their crossover: using banks of 3uF silver foil capacitors, instead of using a single big one.
Hey what are those blobs with blue tac on the crystals and chips? And can these capacitors also be bypassed with bi-polar capacitors like they use in speaker filters? And i recon u put some copper foil around the capacitors as a shield? wouldnt aluminium foil be better?
The blue tac is to dampen the resonances, and the crystals are piezoelectric crystals (quartz) to cut down on the surrounding high frequency EMI fields. Copper foil is a better heat sink, and a better EMI shield. Aluminum would also work to a lesser degree, although very hard to ground it as you can't solder to it.
If i wanted to find someone locally who could help me with upgrades for my DAC and other related things, do i need to look for an electrician, an audio engineer, or someone with a different profession?
In my city you can find electronic technicians in electronic repair shops, also you could ask at stereo stores where to get repairs and mods done. Hope this helps.
Bro I wanted to ask you about musical ratio you had told me yesterday, but I didn't understand , is golden ratio also musical ratio or not, as I have used that before
Hello Ray, I could not find specific info on the 3A crossover... however, Vandersteens use low order crossovers, so first line of attack would be to look for the caps and upgrade for better ones. Actually, I have an older Vandersteen, and I will upgrade its crossover. For now it's tucked away and hard to access, but will get around to pull it out and mod its crossover one day. For now, the Mirage is slated for the crossover rebuild during the next month or so, depending on when I find the time. Until then, I can make a short video on a few easy things that can be done on Vandersteens ; ).
@@realworldaudio Would be phenomenal. The two challenges are the fact that the components might need to be exactly matched to the originals in terms of measurements or else the phase alignment could be thrown off (at least that is what is claimed. Is it true?) and second how to access the crossover inside the speakers and handle the crossover that is often glued together. Vandersteens are very well designed speakers but the components of the crossover are of low quality, to keep cost down.
Wow you sound like you believed 💯% of everything you are saying Having built my own DAC that works perfect but a low noise power supply is the best for audio I hope no damage comes from ur advice
There's no belief, I do not have any kind of beliefs that influence me, I only act on experienced results. These things I have shown here I have done on many, many, many occasions with consistent audible consequences. Not all were successful, sometimes the equipment does not work, due to old age of the equipment. However, when equipment worked for starters, I never broke them. When needed fixing, sometimes fix worked, sometimes not. So, always proceed with caution!!!
@@thinkIndependent2024 Actually, changing the design is the lesser issue, that has never caused me a problem. The problem is old failing parts in older gear, and overly compact designs that do not allow proper changes: eg overheating/burning a capacitor that's next to the item you are soldering... if you realize it has happened then you can change it, but unnoticed it can be a very long troubleshooting experience, or lead to right away failure that takes out many other parts. With experience I gained a better sense of what can be modified on a certain unit, and what are the mods that can be done safely, and what are ones that are risky. Should do a video on that... ;
Real World example Definitive Technology BP7009 rower speakers with integrated subwoofer have a known problem the filter capacitors are undersized and the fail by the hundreds $60 will fix them but the mfg wants $500 plus shipping.( 8 solder points) There are thousands of items like that in America and plenty of items that people are just tired of and would love someone to just come pick it up and it works perfectly ( Consider That )Time is money everywhere
Thank you very much for such an absolutely excellent vid regarding my question about electrolytic vs film bypass caps. in this particular situation. The level of detail you took it to is appreciated as well, and I’m glad my assumption about the size of the film caps had some merit. Thanks again, Janos!
You are welcome Nick! ;
Thanks very much for this, I added 220uf (Silmics) to 22,000uf Mondorf AG's and it made a very worthwhile difference (the 220's were already run in, taken from a different unit), it kept the rich tonality and improved the dynamics. It brought the balance back as it had become a little too dark. Is it worth considering a 2.2uf 100V Silmic as well ?
Biggest difference would be adding the 1% value 2,200uF. At 2.2uF I'd add a film cap, that would be even better than the Elna. (If you have space.. probably not anymore for the 2.2mF and the film, but 2.2uF Elna would still add a little top end clarity.)
@@realworldaudio Great, thanks I actually have some 2.2 uf Film caps I might be able to squeeze in, I will need to use some 20-30mm leads, but I guess If I try with some low impedance (0.9mm) solid core cable, I want be adding any ESR and I guess for the analogue supply not digital ESL is not a thing. I'll give it a go
PS 1% of 22,000 is 220 which are great
@@adrianadrianp5305 Sorry, yes. I don't know why but I misread it for 220,000.... ;
By paralleling you will be lowering both ERS and ESL even when there's extra long / thin leads... Leakage is the only thing that will increase;
Wow great stuff
You specifically mention DACs in your explanation. I agree that DAC chip clocks operate in the MHz range so IMHO and IME bypassing an existing bulk electrolytic capacitor in the power supply with a lower value electrolytic (as you suggest approximately 1% of the larger capacitance) isn't going to address the issue. Digital ICs and analogue ICs benefit from decoupling the power supply rails with lower value capacitors (usually film or ceramic types) as close to the IC's power supply pins as is physically possible to do so. Adding 1% bulk capacitance in the power supply won't make any difference. It's a well known myth in the audiophool world.
Thank you Alan! Adding the small capacitance to the bulk supply makes sure that the supply remains uniformly capacitive throughout the working range of the ICs, and the ICs do not see a transition from capacitive supply to inductive supply at a very high frequency. Just look at what happens to the sensitive clock crystal when the inductance of the unbypassed supply interacts with the small decoupling capacitor on the leg of the IC: that creates a low pass filter, and quite likely also a very high frequency oscillator, that adds unwanted components/shifts to the clock-generated frequency.
You are quite right though, we do not hear the benefits of bypassing every time - it can also make the sound quite a bit worse. It's not an automatic band aid, especially when there's a big mismatch between the cap and the bypassing cap. (Eg bypassing a poor quality cap will make things much worse, yet bypassing a high quality capacitor with another with a similar character will take it to the next level.) In all cases when I observed the rules of bypassing (as taught by my mentor) it did make an improvement for me (and many of my audio friends) that prompted me to keep experimenting with it.
Thanks for this. Would this be a good idea for a Class D amplifier? I assume the voltage should be the same?
Yes, it also applies for class D amps. Similar voltages, but check the voltage ratings just to make sure, can vary from model to model.
Thank you Janos,
Do you still have this inductive problem with caps of lower values such as those in a tube power supply in the 20-50uF range and no digital components to affect? Do you still recommend for tube power supplies? I’m guessing it is still recommended if not just to speed up the larger caps…
Yes, inductivity is at play in all caps, unless they are a perfect capacitor - which they are not. Yet, high quality film caps have negligible inductance and are close to perfect capacitors as far as audio signals are concerned. In that case it's better to distribute the capacitance with using 10 x 5uF film caps instead of a single 50uF cap, as the 5uF charges / discharges x10 faster than the 50uF cap. So, total capacitance will be same, but charge times drastically reduced (drastic increase in perceived transient speed). And prices drastically increased.... for example, that's why top Audio note speakers are so unrealistically expensive because they are doing this in their crossover: using banks of 3uF silver foil capacitors, instead of using a single big one.
@@realworldaudio Thanks again Janos,
I’d still be interested in seeing your procedure for wrapping the copper around so nicely and where to get it…
@@marcl8814 Hi Marc, here's about the source: th-cam.com/video/nsJ-rzj8alQ/w-d-xo.html I'll do a video on how to wrap it around the capacitor ; )
@@realworldaudio 👍
@@realworldaudio Thanks, I forgot about that video, I did watch it awhile ago…
Hey what are those blobs with blue tac on the crystals and chips? And can these capacitors also be bypassed with bi-polar capacitors like they use in speaker filters? And i recon u put some copper foil around the capacitors as a shield? wouldnt aluminium foil be better?
The blue tac is to dampen the resonances, and the crystals are piezoelectric crystals (quartz) to cut down on the surrounding high frequency EMI fields. Copper foil is a better heat sink, and a better EMI shield. Aluminum would also work to a lesser degree, although very hard to ground it as you can't solder to it.
If i wanted to find someone locally who could help me with upgrades for my DAC and other related things, do i need to look for an electrician, an audio engineer, or someone with a different profession?
In my city you can find electronic technicians in electronic repair shops, also you could ask at stereo stores where to get repairs and mods done. Hope this helps.
I concur with Mark - ask around in stereo stores, and look for electronics repairs shops - tv/computer/radio/etc.
Come li devo collegare positivo con il positivo, negativo con il negativo? Grazie
Si, positivo con il positivo, negativo con il negativo. Prego ;
@@realworldaudio grazie
i see people just shorting the wires instead and take the caps out in dacs etc?
Bro I wanted to ask you about musical ratio you had told me yesterday, but I didn't understand , is golden ratio also musical ratio or not, as I have used that before
Can u suggest any musical ratio I can use for speaker box
@@IDontExist14 For example C-E-G... but it's much, much more involved than that! I will make videos on the cabinet size selection process.
Not the same, musical scale uses different ratios from the golden ratio.
Would be great if you could make a video about upgrading parts in Vandersteen loudspeakers crossovers. Namely the 3A.
Hello Ray, I could not find specific info on the 3A crossover... however, Vandersteens use low order crossovers, so first line of attack would be to look for the caps and upgrade for better ones. Actually, I have an older Vandersteen, and I will upgrade its crossover. For now it's tucked away and hard to access, but will get around to pull it out and mod its crossover one day. For now, the Mirage is slated for the crossover rebuild during the next month or so, depending on when I find the time. Until then, I can make a short video on a few easy things that can be done on Vandersteens ; ).
@@realworldaudio Would be phenomenal. The two challenges are the fact that the components might need to be exactly matched to the originals in terms of measurements or else the phase alignment could be thrown off (at least that is what is claimed. Is it true?) and second how to access the crossover inside the speakers and handle the crossover that is often glued together. Vandersteens are very well designed speakers but the components of the crossover are of low quality, to keep cost down.
Wow you sound like you believed 💯% of everything you are saying
Having built my own DAC that works perfect but a low noise power supply is the best for audio I hope no damage comes from ur advice
There's no belief, I do not have any kind of beliefs that influence me, I only act on experienced results. These things I have shown here I have done on many, many, many occasions with consistent audible consequences. Not all were successful, sometimes the equipment does not work, due to old age of the equipment. However, when equipment worked for starters, I never broke them. When needed fixing, sometimes fix worked, sometimes not. So, always proceed with caution!!!
@@realworldaudio I have built Amp myself and know the consequence of not have things right as designed
@@thinkIndependent2024 Actually, changing the design is the lesser issue, that has never caused me a problem. The problem is old failing parts in older gear, and overly compact designs that do not allow proper changes: eg overheating/burning a capacitor that's next to the item you are soldering... if you realize it has happened then you can change it, but unnoticed it can be a very long troubleshooting experience, or lead to right away failure that takes out many other parts. With experience I gained a better sense of what can be modified on a certain unit, and what are the mods that can be done safely, and what are ones that are risky. Should do a video on that... ;
Real World example Definitive Technology BP7009 rower speakers with integrated subwoofer have a known problem the filter capacitors are undersized and the fail by the hundreds $60 will fix them but the mfg wants $500 plus shipping.( 8 solder points)
There are thousands of items like that in America and plenty of items that people are just tired of and would love someone to just come pick it up and it works perfectly
( Consider That )Time is money everywhere
Elna silmic II ?
Yes ; )