Does Deliberate Practice help in Language Learning? With
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มิ.ย. 2024
- Get 35% off on LingQ: www.lingq.com/en/luca/
Link to article: www.lucalampariello.com/home/...
Timestamps:
00:01 - Introduction
00:37 - Deliberate Practice & Error Correction
01:15 - Is there a language learning plateau?
02:34 - Steve's approach to speaking
03:50 - How Steve reviews new vocabulary
06:16 - Would Steve take a TPRS class or choose a graded reader right off the bat? (for exotic languages)
08:35 - Is learning grammar useful?
10:38 - Can someone learn a language just through mere exposure to the language?
12:47 - How can you go from B2 to native-like level in a foreign language?
18:22 - Error correction in language learning
22:57 - Final thoughts
Steve also interviewed me on his channel! Make sure to check it out here:
th-cam.com/video/2AEHjZJL5Bg/w-d-xo.html
Hey Luca I have a question. I want to learn French and I want to learn the BDT way but while I have the money for the course on your website I don’t feel comfortable spending that amount of money so I was hoping if I could learn it on my own and if you could help me please. Could you provide me with the very specific steps you used to learn German, Spanish, and other languages.
It’s so good to see Luca back!
Thanks man, love your videos! 🙂
Two People that made me the polyglot I am today. Great convo. I have adopted the lingq method to learn languages as it allows me to read and understand very well.
Thanks for the kind words!
🥰 Same here
Nice! Which languages do you speak?
Everyone know, Luca speaking 14 languages 🤯☺️
Yeah, I owe all of my fluency in French to these guys. I found my own way to learn, and my method of learning was highly influenced by Kaufmann and Krashen and the like. But if it weren't for that little bit of guidance, I'd have given up long, long ago.
17:47 Being an international student who felt embarrassed every time when i failed to understand ticket sellers, clerks, even my classmates’ words and started to lose confidence and motivation,
I’m so moved by how you describe these awkward situation😢 Thank you so much for these extremely helpful and inspiring videos.
Thanks for the kind words! Every kind/form of growth entails some sort of discomfort. Once you accept that, things get smooth 🥰
We are truly fortunate to be able to witness a conversation between two polyglots of such high level from our living room. Just think, a few years ago such a thing would have seemed impossible. In addition to being two great polyglots, you are both very pleasant and interesting people to follow. In my small way I agree with everything you say, and it was only when I began to introduce some deliberate practice, thanks to Luca's advice, that I really started to speak fluently. I wanted to clarify one thing, in a TPRS class you interact by answering questions from the first day, there are very frequent grammatical explanations and pop-ups, and after half the course there is also a lot of active practice, I remember, we had to summarize stories, personalize them, tell them, change the verb tenses, and so on... There are also corrections, the tutor repeats when you make a mistake with the same phrase in the correct way, as is done with children. In short, there was a lot of deliberate practice for a 0-b2 course. Referring to my direct experience with German, I can say that the TPRS method was very effective. I believe the methods you were referring to, such the one used in Thainland and which are heavily based on Krashen's hypotheses, are called ALG or something similiar.
What can we learn from this noble meeting?
We must listen, read and speak massively ...
and let's not be discouraged if, despite our best efforts, we can't understand a woman at the counter....
Yes, that is still very wise ...
I am very curious to see what wisdom they will still reveal to us one day....
Thanks Steve and Luca for your joint video!
The woman at the counter was probably from Granada, Spain....or the Dominican Republic. Esos acentos son difíciles de entender.
22:00 wow that analogy was brilliant. it's amazing how he managed to came up with that on the spot
Agree with Luca 100% about the emotional aspect of learning a language. You have to really "go through" things in the language. Even negative things, all kinds of normal things--the emotion has some adhesive effect. I don't understand it completely, but I know it's true! And much thanks to both of you for all the inspiration and ideas!
I agree. Learning with emotion, whether positive or negative, is very valuable.
Emotions & mindset play an absolutely essential role in second language acquisition and it is an aspect most often completely neglected in language education.
Research has shown that we remember something better if it is associated with strong emotions.
That's a great pleasure to hear such an inspirational conversation!
I'm glad to watch these 2 legends hyperpolyglots sharing their knowledge for free. You're my inspiration to keep learning!!!
УРАААА🤩🤩🤩🤩 Вас очень Нехватало именно Двоих!!! Спасибо что подарили нам такую прекрасную коллаборацию!
Error correction is good at the end of the conversation. But shouldn't disrupt the flow unless it is a big correction. Great example by Luca that having corrections once your more advanced are more useful 👍
Thanks! Indeed, error correction is great as long as it is done well and at the right timing.
For me error correction, say, if you're reading, can be done after every sentence, but not in the middle of sentences.
Somebody once told me "if your student makes a mistake don't tell them that's wrong, but ask them "why did you put together those words in that way?"
Luca articulates his thoughts very good and he gives wonderful definitions. Great idea about speaking a lot of languages
Glad you liked the interview!
@@LucaLampariello yes the truth is I have already watched the interview twice 😂 it's kinda Fresh Air for all of us✨ thank you again🙌 with huge respect and love from Kazakhstan🇰🇿
Wow Luca speaks so good Englisch, it’s unimaginable.
I could say that they are kind of superheroes for me, they really helped me to get in a better way how to learn languages and I’m so happy for that.
What good friends you two are at this point. Perfect video.
I think it would be super interesting to ask these questions (about learning a distant language only with comprehensible input) to Pablo from Dreaming Spanish as he's done that with Japanese and Thai. Plus the question about speed. I'm learning Spanish with CI only right now and I think comprehension comes fast, but talking comes slow. It is a little frustrating but I'm so repulsed by the idea of studying that I'm okay with the slowness of it (I'm assuming it will work, very new to language learning). Also, I'm glad to hear both your takes on the effectiveness of corrections, as I've also noticed they fly right by me. A couple months ago, I saw the word "igualmente" written and realized I'd been saying it wrong for approximately a year (adding another syllable in the middle). Ha! Anyway, thank you, Luca, for being such an inspiration and really dishing out the encouragement in your videos. Okay, now must go watch some Spanish!
Legends of the language learning!!!
I agree. Although I enjoy studying grammar, I have experienced a bit of a hard time getting myself to study grammar with languages that have cases. I I do try to review that, but then I did try to read or listen to really watch out for those grammar structures being used in action. I feel it is processed easier for my brain. You both are so amazing with your language experiences. Thank you for sharing!!!
It's pretty much the same for me. Generally, if I think something grammar related is rather difficult to understand, I skip studying more of it, and instead watch out for it occurring in the real (spoken or written) language. Being aware of it is most often enough to understand it, once I get more exposure to the language.
Steve and Luca you are my favorite polyglots in the world every single day I watching your videos thank you so much
Grazie Luca ❤
Wow two legendaries are on stage.....happy to see & hear You. I am a Big fan both of You.
Respect & Love from Korea.
I enjoyed watching that conversation. I started learning my second language at the beginning of 2019, but it wasn't until 2020 that I discovered Luca and Steve's videos on TH-cam. You've both helped me a lot in my second language journey.
Rating 10 out of 10. How could you possibly think of NEW questions to ask, and offer NEW insights! Amazing.
Luca and Steve, both of you are incredible human beings and have a huge impact on my life. Three years ago, I was completely frustrated with my ability to speak foreign languages. After following your ideas about language learning, I'm now working daily in French, and have so many new friends because of mastering a language that I've never thought about learning before. Fun fact is that I've been in France only once for three days. So thank you very much for sharing this knowledge publicly with us. All the best for your future!
Can you share your methods? I just started using lingq. Tnx
I'm completely agree with you about mistakes. When we're a beginner, it's so difficult to take action and to be confident, a correction could stop every step and motivation. thank you for your advices. I'm so happy and grateful to listen to you. I'm french and I'm learning english and italian because me piace molto !
The discussion was really great, i felt time flying by
Fantastico, era un pò che aspettavo un video con questi due fenomeni insieme. Siete entrambi di grandissima ispirazione per chi intenda intraprendere lo studio di una nuova lingua. Grazie ancora, vi adoro!
Grazie delle belle parole! 😀
I've seen a bunch (really a lot) of videos from both of them and it's very interesting how they basically point out everything from my childhood that I've never paid any attention to but they have both characterized through their content. Now I have applied those methods once again to learn more languages (at the moment Portuguese, Russian and French). I grew up in a multilingual country, school had 3 languages English, Filipino, and Mandarin and we were all taught in the target languages daily, 2 languages (Cebuano and Hokkien) spoken at home one of which my parents taught me (with correction always as parents do) and one I picked up through years of exposure that I suddenly just started speaking without anyone making me (this surprised even my parents). So I've had all possible ways of learning a language happen to me and each time they say something it's ALWAYS ON POINT! Brain fart 😹
Oh i love that two guys!
Always so helpful and immensely inspiring! An awesome collaboration here. A question, as both of you speak many languages of non Latin alphabets, could you please share tips how we can improve upon the passive skills of reading and writing in a difficult script?
First English, then French, now Japanese. Now I can definitely say that the life I am currently having have your fingerprint, Luca. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate your job when it comes to language learning.
I love both of you ❤️🤗
I think that situations is the key Word! Experience and imagine them over and over again…
So exciting to see you in a "real space" it just adds a nice visual- now on to listen to the words of wisdom!
Ehehe thanks, 2 more videos with "the white background" and then a big change, I think you will be pleased 😃
I can really remember seeing Luca Lampariello for the first time in the Easy German Channel in 2017,,,I was so motivated by how he spoke about learning languages that i just caught his fire 🔥. 🥰🥰🥰 I have used both Steve's method and Luca's method. So so amazing 💖 💖 💖 God bless you guys ♥.
Always good to see you both together!
It's really impressive to see two legends of language learning having a high level debate, congrats Luca and Steve!
So nice content!thank both of you so much!
Great to see some more videos from Luca lately!
Really enjoyed this video, thanks!
It's always extremely interesting and useful listening to both of you. Well done and thanks so much! 👍
Thanks for sharing 👍
Wonderful session. Great ideas, super chemistry, enjoyable to watch. Thank you.
Very engaging conversation! Bravi!
Loved this so big😍😍😍
It is really a productive interview. Thanks so much Luca!
I got these points and am gonna apply them into my language path too.
1)Maintaining balance between deliberate learning and just an overview simultaneously
2)Stay aware on Air corrections whether it might be constructive or discouraging for myself and decide it afterwards
3)Recollection of my memories (Situations) & express them through my target language even I haven't built enough blocks to stand on. I really hope this will definitely leads me to have an everlasting motivation.
I deeply desire you to make some live sessions Luca. That would help persons like me to interact with you directly and will aid to get new insights. Thanks again.
Keep inspiring😊
Leads
Lead* - self-corrected☺
Thanks! I am thinking of creating a "study with Luca" live session series.
That was the most interesting conversation I've ever heard
This was great. Thanks to the both of you!
Recently I rewatched Victor Wooten's 5-min. Ted-Ed video "Music as a language". It's about music education, but it's interesting just how much overlap there is with what you guys were saying here. For instance: "In the beginning, embrace mistakes instead of correcting them. Like a child playing air guitar, there are no wrong notes." Or: "Encourage young musicians to play more than they practice. The more they play, the more they'll practice on their own." And on the need to allow learners to play with accomplished musicians from the very beginning (maybe a parallel with the "when in Thailand, speak Thai!" point you were making): "Imagine your parents forcing you to only speak to other babies until you were good enough to speak to them. You'd probably be an adult before you could carry on a proper conversation. To use a musical term, as a baby, you were allowed to jam with the professionals." 🙂
I always tend to disagree with that error correction thing. I think it is useful, when the information comes aggregated. When you talk and after every third word you get a correction, ofc that doesn't help so much. But, when let's say after a session someone told you, listen, you did this and this the whole session wrong, here is how it goes, I think that would be helpful.
Informative interview
Wonderful interview!!!
Thanks!
Pablo from dreaming Spanish attended that school in Thailand. The approach was developed by Dr. J. Marvin Brown and follows the belief that early output can have detrimental effects language learning (strong accent, bad habits forming langage in unnatural ways). This approach is only for the minority of language learners concerned with reaching a native-like level and not for the majority of language learners as it's time consuming.
Correction = intentional feedback is how one learns. It is part of the learning environment. I normally correct one my A2/B1 student since she is an avid, eager polyglot whose motivation or energy is not so hampered.
But perhaps, it is wrong as it may be superfluous (she gets her feedback/learning from other inputs) and/or her subconscious motivation may bleed (neurolanguage approach). Note: Agreeing (using groupthink hormones of concord) is what sells...
It's interesting and very useful to listen to the debate between two significant polyglots.
Loved this interview. Great questions on what Language learners need to deal with and also debunking some of the nutty stuff that people promote.
thank you so much
Although I strongly second Steves comment on dogmatic immersion schools, I do not agree on the supposed ineffectiveness of TPRS. Dreaming Spanish or Natürlich German show that TPRS videos can be a great starter into CI without learning grammar, word lists and translations.
Luca is the best tutor in the world 👍
What a fantastic conversation. I'd love to comment on every single point you covered but this comment would be too long. I'll just pick the one about correction.
My passion for the last four or five years has been and remains Romanian. My motivation is that although I'm English and live in England my best friend from work is Romanian and through him have gathered a group of other Romanian friends both here and in Romania. When I first started learning Romanian only one of them ever corrected my mistakes. She did it too much and I'd end up not talking so much and the others would always tell her to stop it. I made a lot of mistakes!!
Now I realise they all correct my mistakes but to be immodest it's not too often because I'm at a pretty advanced level now don't make many basic mistakes. But I always find it really useful now because if I'm making a mistake it's because it's something I just have never noticed or it's a really advanced point of language or it's theoretically correct but just not what a Romanian would say in that situation. It's really helpful. I'd never actually thought about this until your discussion.
By the way, the stress on motivation is motiVAtion not MOtivation so you were correct. It's on the first syllable in MOtivate. Maybe Americans say it differently but it throws up another possibility. What if a native speaker corrects you and actually tells you something that's wrong because we rarely analyse our own languages in detail?
Great example with the puzzle
very good your class of english
Luca is top👍💪
This is very interesting, plenty to learn here. I agree about error correction, 30 years ago I stopped learning French due to constant correction, it does not help if unsolicited, or especially if the speaker realises the mistakes, but hasn’t yet reached the level of not making them.
Mitico, gran bel video
interesante tema, Saludos desde Nicaragua!
13:58 to 14:55
Great video ❤ მადლობა 😁🌟
They are my superheroes
That was a good stuff.
Nice video
10:38. I learnt Finnish this way back in the 70s when I lived in Helsinki for 3 years. I had a Finnish girlfriend who spoke no English; and workmates who also spoke no English. I had to learn. I never took a formal class back then. I repeated phonic chains that I knew roughly communicated something specific, but without being able to segment very well what was being said. I copied the whole package, including intonation patterns. I then proceeded to lose the language through lack of practice after I moved away. Now studying it again (the hard way🤦♂)
21:13 The best explanation for why not to correct mistakes
Awesome stuff. Where do you come down on the split between intensive vs extensive reading? What proportions should I be using, and is it different at different stages of the learning process? My instinct tells me that I should lean more towards extensive reading later, and focus on intensive reading early on. Or should we always be doing plenty of both?
Grandissimi 👏👏👏👏
Great conversation! I think the whole ESL industry should listen to this interview and adjust their methods. Especially regarding error correction. If error correction interrupts fluency it is a net negative. I've always thought this in my 5+ years of teaching English overseas. Being a polyglot ESL teacher has been an interesting ride. Knowing Russian fluently has helped me connect in a meaningful way with my students over the years despite not using it in my lessons or very little.
Necesito una actualización de las lenguas que hablas! Necesito escucharte hablando las 14!!!!
Molto interessante il discorso sulla grammatica, personalmente a me serve per "drillare" le cose che sbaglio e per notare meglio le strutture , perché non ho la sensibilità e la capacità di notare o dedurre i pattern di quelli bravi. Si legge di grandi poliglotti del passato, tipo Mezzofanti, che partendo dai testi in L2 - spesso libri che per loro avevano un valore spirituale importante - riuscivano ad imparare una lingua senza bisogno di corsi o altro. Luca, tu saresti in grado di apprendere una lingua con un alfabeto simile al nostro usando solo materiale originale significativo e divertente? Potrebbe questo lavoro di reverse engineering (decodifica e deduzione) velocizzare l'apprendimento? Vabbè che di lingue relativamente facili te ne mancano poche, forse solo lo Swaili ed il Rumeno.
Can I listen to it in a Podcast version?
Have you guys considered doing a PHD to do research in everything FLT related? Your expertise is invaluable.
Entonces cuales fueron las conclusiones?
I can manage in the following languages from best to worst: Italian (native), English, Friaulian, German, French, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese. I feel that mastering a language, and not just convey approximately a,message, is when you’re speaking that language and you don’t realise that you’re speaking a language that is not your mother tongue. Honestly, it happened to only twice: in English (when it has been for many years my working language), in German (when I lived in Germany). Do,you think that mastering a language is more or it’s less than that?
So, do you guys think it's a good idea to use the word's translation while trying to learn a word? I'm asking it because I usually watch youtubers saying when learning words we should "always" use the definition on the languague we're learning. So, what could be a better approach on that in your opinion? Do translations should be banned after we've passed the "begginer line"?
Just for curiosity, the language I'm learning is English, and I'm actually feeling stuck in the language.
Our heros
Molto interessante Luca. Il difetto di Krashen secondo me è la chiusura mentale, è talmente convinto delle sue idee che nega qualsiasi prova, esperimento o idea che va in un'altra direzione, senza neanche informarsi o approfondire. Anche quando cita qualcuno come riferimento, prende quello che gli garba e nega il resto senza spiegare il perché. L'altro giorno stava vantando un super poliglotta e fin quando questo parlava di massive 'input, gli stava bene, quando ha iniziato ad insistere sulla fossilizzazione, lui subito è intervenuto dicendo che non esisteva, etc.. Mi sembra un atteggiamento poco scientifico. Molte sue ipotesi e teorie, poi, sono basate su "quanto gli ha detto un amico poliglotta" o su "una cosa che mi è capitata...". Spesso cita Lozanov, il quale parlava di filtro affettivo molti anni prima delle sue ipotesi, nonostante lui se ne sia preso il merito. Beh, anche nelle scuole di Lozanov, dove dicono si arrivasse a B2 e 3000 parole attive in 100 ore, in realtà la fase passiva durava il 33% del tempo, il 66% si praticava e giocava con il dialogo.
Avevo notato la stessa cosa anche io =)
Krashen era interessato all'insegnamento di classi numerose di bambini demotivati. Gli adulti autodidatti motivati sono uno scenario molto diverso.
E quando si leggono le sue ricerche, spesso sono sorprendentemente deboli.
Come dice lei, lui e il suo piccolo gruppo di seguaci sembrano essere troppo parziali e dogmatici, soprattutto se si considera la discutibile base di ricerca su cui lavorano.
In pratica, pochissimi ricercatori o professionisti esperti sono d'accordo con lui. La sua popolarità tra i guru di TH-cam non si riflette nella più ampia comunità dell'apprendimento linguistico.
Quasi tutti raccomandano di bilanciare gli input con l'apprendimento intenzionale. L'unico dibattito è su quale debba essere questo equilibrio.
Come autodidatti, possiamo scegliere da soli. Personalmente, trovo molto utili alcuni esercizi di grammatica e di esercitazione, ma è chiaro che per altri non funzionano. Siamo tutti diversi e ci sono molti modi efficaci per imparare.
Se qualcuno, come Krashen, vi dice che ha l'unica vera via, possiamo essere certi che sta dicendo delle stronzate.
My two favorite polyglots... Ever
Great
Everyone recommends “Practice, practice more...” Luca, have you ever met people who can speak fluently but in broken English? This is when a person speaks fluently, but with many mistakes, and the person is comfortable speaking incorrectly because he or she is just used to it. I live in Ukraine and have been learning English for 11 years. I can understand, read, listen, watch movies and TV shows in English, but I rarely speak. I have no problem to communicate in English but I make lots of mistakes and I'm afraid to get used to speak in broken English. An example of such fluency in broken English is on the TH-cam channel UnHerd with a recent interview with Alexey Arestovich. Broken English could be a topic for a new video.
Dans une conversation avec un tuteur, ce dernier peut, peut-être, ne pas faire remarquer l’erreur, mais peu de temps après, il pourra reformuler les propos de la personne qui apprend. "Comme vous le disiez. .." suivi de la phrase correcte . On ne pointe pas les erreurs, ce qui est souvent contre-productif, mais on permet à l’autre de s’approprier ainsi la bonne formule,
Merci pour ces vidéos , c'est un réel plaisir de vous écouter tous les deux .
Je suis plus ou moins d'accord, mais même cette méthode a ses propres limites quand ça concerne des langues qui utilisent un vocabulaire différent selon si on parle de choses liées au locuteur ou liées à l'interlocuteur. Dans le cas du japonais par exemple, si le locuteur veut parler de son propre père à son interlocuteur, il doit dire "chichi". Mais son interlocuteur va lui répondre en disant "otôsan" pour désigner le père de l'apprenant qui, cette fois, n'est plus le locuteur : l'apprenant risque alors de croire qu'il s'est trompé en disant "chichi", donc il risque de dire "otôsan" pour parler de son propre père, ce qui est perçu par les Japonais comme une sorte de vanité, vu que le mot "otôsan" est un mot honorifique pour parler du père de quelqu'un (donc un mot qu'on utilise soit en parlant à son propre père, soit en parlant du père du son interlocuteur, mais jamais pour parler de son propre père à quelqu'un qui n'appartient pas au cercle familial. Et c'est loin d'être le seul exemple en japonais (il y a aussi tous ces verbes qui, dans un registre très poli, changent de forme, voire sont carrément remplacés par des verbes différents, selon si le locuteur parle de lui-même - on utilise alors une forme dite "humble" - ou de son interlocuteur - on utilise alors une forme honorifique).
ALG in Thailand by Marvin Brown who spent he life perfecting Krashen' s theory.
Pablo from Dreaming Spanish has acquired several languages just by listening to hundreds if not thousands of hours before starting to speak. Like Matt vs Japan.
Just like most of the world's languages that are passed on to the next generation orally only. It seems to work very well.
What I find weird is that Steve's best languages he learned them the traditional way.
Of course he will now only say anything that will support his LingQ company.
I have delved into ALG a bit more these days.
It does indeed work well, but given the number of tools we have nowadays to learn languages, Iprefer other routes.
Having said that, "to each his own", as they say.
If you find it useful and efficient, go for it.
PS: there is nothing wrong in promoting LingQ, I think it is a fantastic tool for learning languages!
I've kind of arrived at the idea that ALG is theoretically the best way to learn a language, just not necessarily the fastest, and not to mention super inconvenient considering the lack of current online resources for most languages.
Welcome to Thailand
I'd LOVE to go to Thailand! :-)
Hi there. Dear Luca, what do you think about Language Simp?
I think he is a pretty entertaining dude :-D
You asked Steve what someone should do in order to shift from B2 to "native-like level". Has Steve ever even been on this level with any language? Anybody knows? I'm asking because I'm not sure.
He claims his strongest languages are French and Japanese. I can testify that his vocabulary, grammar, knowledge of idioms and general ease in french are that of a well-educated native french speaker.
@@GreenLevi-ec6pz Very interesting what you wrote ;)
👍👍👍👍👍
the only true polyglot I see in this video is Luca
Need a better image of your pile of books! ;-)
If your mother tongue is Spanish, in mu case, Will you ever be able to Watch a film with no captions?
Let's say your native language is Fon and you know enough English or French to do business. You want to learn Hebrew so that you can read the Bible in the original languages. There is material about Hebrew grammar in English and French, but not in Fon. Should you read a Hebrew grammar in English or French, or should you just watch Aleph with Beth videos? After enough lessons, Beth explains verb tenses in Hebrew.
I love and respect both of these guys. And I'm not saying what I'm about to say due to lack of respect. But, is it just me or does Steve seem to talk from both sides of his mouth? In his videos he always talks about how deliberate learning is essentially a waste of time and to never try to remember anything nor use techniques such as flashcards because it all has to happen naturally. However, when Luca hit him with a direct question about it, Steve provided a long list of deliberate learning activities that he's doing including taking tests within LingQ and essentially using flashcard techniques. I think Luca was expecting this to be a point that they disagree on and was quite surprised by Steve's response. I never bought the idea that deliberate learning doesn't work. I would have never made it through college without deliberate learning. Perhaps Steve is starting to change his mind or at least softens his position when face-to-face with a very competent polyglot who knows better.
02:31 Steve's thoughts : "Could you repeat it please?" hahahaha why is the question is too long?? haha .
Informative interview