I took a variation on number five. The players each role their normal initiative on a D20 plus their modifier, then add them all together for the party initiative. As DM I roll the same number of D20s plus modifiers for the enemy party. This let's everyone role, and the overlaping ranges allow for either group to go first in each round adding a more dynamic element to combat. This also allows the party to coordinate their attacks more effectively.
Really solid advices here obviously based on experience. For initiative I used 2 side based initiative (players and gm) gm is always first, but those who beats static initiative DC for encounter (10+dex mod for fastest monster or gm arbitrary) get to make their turn before first gm-side turn. So all d&d initiative chracter mods and perks are still valid. It's fast and players can make a tag team cooperative strategies work, no need to awkwardly hold action (and so does gm ))
Really good, great video - ICRPG is excellent and timers are great. I switched from 5 e to OSR / DCC / Lotfp and had a great experience with both side based I initiative and phased I initiative. Recently I’ve been running mothership, and it’s liberating using player facing rolls, and using initiative less systems
I love Mothership. I like it structurally, as you say, it is more player facing. I've run a lot of OSE and Lamentations over the years. Glad to meet a fellow convert.
I agree with the idea behind halving all hit points, but I find it's easier to increase monster damage by 50-100%, and half their health, and reduce their AC by 1 or 2 (maybe these goblins don't have shields?), rather than mess with player stats. The other ideas you presented are interesting, and I'll definitely want to try the tokens-in-a-cup idea when I next DM in person if my players are up for it. Some other ideas that I'm a big fan of as both a player and a DM of D&D: - If you are using standard initiative, group your enemies. Ideally into fewer groups as you have number of players. That prevents your players from feeling like the monsters are getting more turns or more attention than they are. - Pre-roll initiative for monsters. - A player gets the same initiative as a monster you pre-rolled? Just bump the monster down. You don't need to spend any time thinking about it, and you don't need to tell the player. - If it's a simple encounter which may only take a single round or two, consider not rolling initiative at all. The player that says they want to do something does something, then the enemy reacts, then the remaining players act depending on who has come up with a plan faster. At that point, if the fight looks like it's going to break out into including more enemies or into taking several rounds, *then* roll initiative. - If one fight breaks out not long after another has finished (e.g. without having a short rest in between), ask if using the same initiative from the previous fight is okay. I've found players usually prefer this, and if you know they do, you can state that's whats happening rather than asking. - Don't have NPCs on the players side (DMPCs) assiting in combat. Your players aren't here to watch you play with yourself. - Use average damage for monsters, especially if they're either low-impact monsters doing just a few hit points of damage, or its a big dragon breath attack where there's a very high chance the bucket of dice you roll will be exactly the average result anyway. - Ask your players, individually, if they enjoy adding all those Sneak Attack or Fireball dice. If they don't, they can use averages too. It doesn't negatively impact the game if the level 15 Rogue is doing 28 damage every time they Sneak Attack instead of a tiny bit under or over. - Allow your players to make idiotic descisions. "Yes, and" is faster than "no, but", and "no, but" is usually faster than "no". So they want to try to shoot the candelabra to get it to fall from the ceiling onto an enemy? You don't need to remind them that no one has done fire damage to the troll yet so if they don't Firebolt it directly it will just regain the hit points. If you do try to steer them, that's not only extra time from you explaining, but they'll also spend a few more minutes slowing things down coming up with another plan. Which might also be stupid. Hope those help anyone looking for more!
The d4 will build more tension if you just roll it each round and trigger it on a 1 -in-4 or 2-in-4 chance with a lower percentage the further away the danger is. Rolled in open of course without the players knowing what the danger is. This way the players really have no idea when the danger will trigger. It also works with bad ceilings and other environmental hazards. I use HD instead of HP for all combat. A hit takes away a full HD. After combat any PCs that were reduced to 0 HD roll a d6 and are dead on a 2-in-6 chance. AD&D 1e side based initiative is the way to go if not using weapon speed initiative. In fact. Everyone should just play 1e ;). Thanks for the video.
I agree with variable clocks like you describe here - really useful comment. I run death saves like this. Anything to provoke a clear reaction from the players.
1e is so good dude. Just switched to it from Pathfinder and I’m having WAY more fun. Its initiative rule alone is enough to elevate it to the top for me.
Totally agree, initiative is garbage. One of the things I did to speed things up was ditching initiative. It’s usually pretty obvious which side will have surprise or be able to act first on the other, when it’s the players chance to act I ask “ok who’s ready?’, if the player knows exactly what they’re going to do then they get to go, if not, like the wizard who wants to look up a spell, someone else gets to go while they look up that spell & we will come back to the wizard , that way other players don’t have to wait around while they decide. I lIke your idea of everyone moving at once & then “ok everyone doing melee attacks go”, I may try that tomorrow….
@TheTroopersCorner I like the simplicity of whoever is ready goes first. I think I'd probably do something similar, especially if I were running a big group.
Some nice tips! Glad I've found this channel, one thing I find is that characters just get locked into combat and because of reaction attacks it stops anyone moving in the space. Which I think is a bit dull. If you have any ideas to get round this that would be fantastic!
Glad you're along for the ride Alex. I'm probably going to do something with encounter design too. I will specifically consider how to break 'static' qualities that emerge in play.
since I am running a role-playing game, I removed aspects that bog down the players and detract from the emersion. 1 - removed initiative (I never say roll for initiative) 2 - no action economy 3 - no 'to-hit' roll 4 - AC as damage reduction 5 - spell casting as a points/endurance mechanic simple resolution of scenes that encourages players to be descriptive and involved. as a scene unfolds, it's as easy as asking the player what they want to have the character do. then, assign any necessary die rolls. the whole time, describing the scene and injecting npc actions while having the next player describing their characters action. this is fluid, fast, chaotic and immersive. everyone is involved and engaged because nobody is sitting and waiting for anyone to discern the actions they can/will perform.
@bruced648 have you played Dungeon World? Or any PbtA games? They are similar to what you describe and provide 'mechanised' narrative. I lean simulationist and even gamist at times and I think my players do. Most (but not all) of us are old school-ish players and like the way mechanics support play. Wondering - do you use miniatures? Or is it all theatre of the mind (or something in between?)
I have a homebrew that speeds up initiative and is more fun. Each side rolls a d12. The side with the higher roll goes first. Then the sides alternate turns by choosing who goes next. It keeps more players involved in the strategy and if a player is not ready, then another player is asked to go. Much faster inititiative.
@GazzaMitchell-gz3df I am a forever GM of 40+ years. I've gone to a more minimalist approach to rules for gaming. the character sheet is a folded 3×5 note card. the rules that I use are a combination of AD&D, 3e and 5e, plus numerous alternate rules published in the DMGs. the game is run approx 50% theater and 50% with miniatures. as good as theater can be, it's just easier to set the scene by setting up an encounter area. the area depicts where the characters and npc's/creatures are, but it is not gridded or uses any specific measurements. because I don't lock in players to a limited list of activities that an action economy provides, it gives them far more flexibility with regards to the characters activities. since I am not concerned with a grid, the whole 5 feet proximity set of rules gets tossed. we have completed combats involving 5 characters and 18 goblins in less than 30 minutes. no, it was not a tpk. but characters were injured and chose to withdraw after defeating or wounding at 14 of the goblins. by using standard rules as written, that's a 2 hour encounter - minimum.
Yeah, have to disagree with the take on 40K and WHF(OW). Sometime of course like it, but the fact is that there is A LOT of push back on how long it takes to get through a turn, much less a game.
Agree that there is pushback here (I have experienced enough achingly long 40k matches in my time)- my point however, which I don't think I necessarily communicated clearly, is that some games don't just contain combat, but in fact combat is the entirety of the game and therefore its presence as an experience in gaming isn't necessarily something to be rushed or minimised as a default perspective.
I think the grid and many monster actions is what makes dnd 5e slow. Ive been running dnd 5e without a grid and ive been combining monsters together so i can run large numbers of them without much hassle. Its much much faster. (Have one big pool of hp for many monsters of the same type. - Doesnt solve other issues i have with dnd 5e though. Cairn rpg is awesome. Been loving the osr style games that emphasize exploration and interacting with the environment creatively. Ive been wondering if i can bring that way if thinking to dnd 5e or not.
@@bonzwah1 It's actually deeper than that. And shallower. Hackmaster's fixes are in an entirely different place- it fixes the initiative system/turn sizes.
It helps a lot to use group initiative. All players move simultaneously and declare their attacks. Attacks and spells are rolled simultaneously.
@@anotherelvis I agree totally. It helps keep people involved and helps keep things moving
I don't like group initiative, it's the best way to TPK. Unless you tend to play the enemies as complete idiots.
I took a variation on number five. The players each role their normal initiative on a D20 plus their modifier, then add them all together for the party initiative. As DM I roll the same number of D20s plus modifiers for the enemy party. This let's everyone role, and the overlaping ranges allow for either group to go first in each round adding a more dynamic element to combat. This also allows the party to coordinate their attacks more effectively.
You could also substitute d6s for the d20s, if you want to make initiative bonuses more valuable.
Really solid advices here obviously based on experience. For initiative I used 2 side based initiative (players and gm) gm is always first, but those who beats static initiative DC for encounter (10+dex mod for fastest monster or gm arbitrary) get to make their turn before first gm-side turn. So all d&d initiative chracter mods and perks are still valid. It's fast and players can make a tag team cooperative strategies work, no need to awkwardly hold action (and so does gm ))
I like this as a roll vs static initiative. Seems fairly clearly to me.
Really good, great video - ICRPG is excellent and timers are great. I switched from 5 e to OSR / DCC / Lotfp and had a great experience with both side based I initiative and phased I initiative. Recently I’ve been running mothership, and it’s liberating using player facing rolls, and using initiative less systems
I love Mothership. I like it structurally, as you say, it is more player facing. I've run a lot of OSE and Lamentations over the years. Glad to meet a fellow convert.
I agree with the idea behind halving all hit points, but I find it's easier to increase monster damage by 50-100%, and half their health, and reduce their AC by 1 or 2 (maybe these goblins don't have shields?), rather than mess with player stats.
The other ideas you presented are interesting, and I'll definitely want to try the tokens-in-a-cup idea when I next DM in person if my players are up for it.
Some other ideas that I'm a big fan of as both a player and a DM of D&D:
- If you are using standard initiative, group your enemies. Ideally into fewer groups as you have number of players. That prevents your players from feeling like the monsters are getting more turns or more attention than they are.
- Pre-roll initiative for monsters.
- A player gets the same initiative as a monster you pre-rolled? Just bump the monster down. You don't need to spend any time thinking about it, and you don't need to tell the player.
- If it's a simple encounter which may only take a single round or two, consider not rolling initiative at all. The player that says they want to do something does something, then the enemy reacts, then the remaining players act depending on who has come up with a plan faster. At that point, if the fight looks like it's going to break out into including more enemies or into taking several rounds, *then* roll initiative.
- If one fight breaks out not long after another has finished (e.g. without having a short rest in between), ask if using the same initiative from the previous fight is okay. I've found players usually prefer this, and if you know they do, you can state that's whats happening rather than asking.
- Don't have NPCs on the players side (DMPCs) assiting in combat. Your players aren't here to watch you play with yourself.
- Use average damage for monsters, especially if they're either low-impact monsters doing just a few hit points of damage, or its a big dragon breath attack where there's a very high chance the bucket of dice you roll will be exactly the average result anyway.
- Ask your players, individually, if they enjoy adding all those Sneak Attack or Fireball dice. If they don't, they can use averages too. It doesn't negatively impact the game if the level 15 Rogue is doing 28 damage every time they Sneak Attack instead of a tiny bit under or over.
- Allow your players to make idiotic descisions. "Yes, and" is faster than "no, but", and "no, but" is usually faster than "no". So they want to try to shoot the candelabra to get it to fall from the ceiling onto an enemy? You don't need to remind them that no one has done fire damage to the troll yet so if they don't Firebolt it directly it will just regain the hit points. If you do try to steer them, that's not only extra time from you explaining, but they'll also spend a few more minutes slowing things down coming up with another plan. Which might also be stupid.
Hope those help anyone looking for more!
@@burntcustard I’d also recommend using wounds instead of hits. Either with or without wound tables
The d4 will build more tension if you just roll it each round and trigger it on a 1 -in-4 or 2-in-4 chance with a lower percentage the further away the danger is. Rolled in open of course without the players knowing what the danger is.
This way the players really have no idea when the danger will trigger.
It also works with bad ceilings and other environmental hazards.
I use HD instead of HP for all combat. A hit takes away a full HD. After combat any PCs that were reduced to 0 HD roll a d6 and are dead on a 2-in-6 chance.
AD&D 1e side based initiative is the way to go if not using weapon speed initiative. In fact. Everyone should just play 1e ;).
Thanks for the video.
I agree with variable clocks like you describe here - really useful comment. I run death saves like this. Anything to provoke a clear reaction from the players.
1e is so good dude. Just switched to it from Pathfinder and I’m having WAY more fun. Its initiative rule alone is enough to elevate it to the top for me.
@boredomaster this is it man, old school. That initiative rule is just so elegant.
@@GazzaMitchell-gz3dfGreat vid, subscribed btw
@@boredomaster 100%. Segement based combat and side based initiative is super elegant. Even evasion underground is superior to other editions.
Totally agree, initiative is garbage. One of the things I did to speed things up was ditching initiative. It’s usually pretty obvious which side will have surprise or be able to act first on the other, when it’s the players chance to act I ask “ok who’s ready?’, if the player knows exactly what they’re going to do then they get to go, if not, like the wizard who wants to look up a spell, someone else gets to go while they look up that spell & we will come back to the wizard , that way other players don’t have to wait around while they decide.
I lIke your idea of everyone moving at once & then “ok everyone doing melee attacks go”, I may try that tomorrow….
@TheTroopersCorner I like the simplicity of whoever is ready goes first. I think I'd probably do something similar, especially if I were running a big group.
Some nice tips! Glad I've found this channel, one thing I find is that characters just get locked into combat and because of reaction attacks it stops anyone moving in the space. Which I think is a bit dull. If you have any ideas to get round this that would be fantastic!
Glad you're along for the ride Alex. I'm probably going to do something with encounter design too. I will specifically consider how to break 'static' qualities that emerge in play.
since I am running a role-playing game, I removed aspects that bog down the players and detract from the emersion.
1 - removed initiative
(I never say roll for initiative)
2 - no action economy
3 - no 'to-hit' roll
4 - AC as damage reduction
5 - spell casting as a points/endurance mechanic
simple resolution of scenes that encourages players to be descriptive and involved.
as a scene unfolds, it's as easy as asking the player what they want to have the character do. then, assign any necessary die rolls. the whole time, describing the scene and injecting npc actions while having the next player describing their characters action.
this is fluid, fast, chaotic and immersive. everyone is involved and engaged because nobody is sitting and waiting for anyone to discern the actions they can/will perform.
@bruced648 have you played Dungeon World? Or any PbtA games? They are similar to what you describe and provide 'mechanised' narrative.
I lean simulationist and even gamist at times and I think my players do. Most (but not all) of us are old school-ish players and like the way mechanics support play. Wondering - do you use miniatures? Or is it all theatre of the mind (or something in between?)
I have a homebrew that speeds up initiative and is more fun. Each side rolls a d12. The side with the higher roll goes first. Then the sides alternate turns by choosing who goes next. It keeps more players involved in the strategy and if a player is not ready, then another player is asked to go. Much faster inititiative.
@GazzaMitchell-gz3df
I am a forever GM of 40+ years. I've gone to a more minimalist approach to rules for gaming. the character sheet is a folded 3×5 note card. the rules that I use are a combination of AD&D, 3e and 5e, plus numerous alternate rules published in the DMGs.
the game is run approx 50% theater and 50% with miniatures. as good as theater can be, it's just easier to set the scene by setting up an encounter area.
the area depicts where the characters and npc's/creatures are, but it is not gridded or uses any specific measurements.
because I don't lock in players to a limited list of activities that an action economy provides, it gives them far more flexibility with regards to the characters activities. since I am not concerned with a grid, the whole 5 feet proximity set of rules gets tossed.
we have completed combats involving 5 characters and 18 goblins in less than 30 minutes.
no, it was not a tpk.
but characters were injured and chose to withdraw after defeating or wounding at 14 of the goblins.
by using standard rules as written, that's a 2 hour encounter - minimum.
Nice shelves! I see that Dying Earth Kickstarter box, nice stuff!
@@optionsgoat9432 I love Jack Vance and I love DCC adventures. Seemed a natural fit to me!
On the note of the shelves, where were they from? :)
I love the d4 idea. Thanks
You are very welcome.
Word up to sand timers! Also great for social encounters and chases
Totally agree - you want to build tension in chase, slap down a sand timer!
Bro driving 2hrs for a game is insane
Maybe. But when you played for a long time with a group and you meet monthly, some people are willing. They can then stay over - go pub post game.
@GazzaMitchell-gz3df impressive to stay in touch with people who leave the city. Usually the dissappear entirely
Yeah, have to disagree with the take on 40K and WHF(OW). Sometime of course like it, but the fact is that there is A LOT of push back on how long it takes to get through a turn, much less a game.
Agree that there is pushback here (I have experienced enough achingly long 40k matches in my time)- my point however, which I don't think I necessarily communicated clearly, is that some games don't just contain combat, but in fact combat is the entirety of the game and therefore its presence as an experience in gaming isn't necessarily something to be rushed or minimised as a default perspective.
You gotta stop having such good reasonable advice and being too sexy. Dangerous combination man!
Just Reverse initiative everyone states what they want to do then roll to see how fast it happens
Declaring actions is always a good idea as far as I'm concerned! Especially with larger groups
best way to speed up combat - half the hit points of any monster and character.... ^^
Literally right.
You could just play a game that has fast combat built in without having to do any extra work to make the game actually fun.
Combat in D&D is slow, and slow combat is boring. I can't believe people accept this as part of the game. I'm switching to Cairn RPG.
Cairn is such a balm in this wilderness of generic rpgs. I love Into the Odd too.
Hackmaster...
I think the grid and many monster actions is what makes dnd 5e slow. Ive been running dnd 5e without a grid and ive been combining monsters together so i can run large numbers of them without much hassle. Its much much faster. (Have one big pool of hp for many monsters of the same type.
-
Doesnt solve other issues i have with dnd 5e though. Cairn rpg is awesome. Been loving the osr style games that emphasize exploration and interacting with the environment creatively. Ive been wondering if i can bring that way if thinking to dnd 5e or not.
@@bonzwah1 It's actually deeper than that. And shallower. Hackmaster's fixes are in an entirely different place- it fixes the initiative system/turn sizes.
How to have better combat
Step 1: Don't play DnD, play other games instead
Increasingly the conclusion many of us come to it seems.