NEW Sodium, Aluminum battery is 15X cheaper than sodium or lithium

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ต.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 346

  • @Thunderbuck
    @Thunderbuck ปีที่แล้ว +27

    You make a great point here: even if we can't get away from Lithium for car batteries yet, Sodium batteries for stationary applications can displace Lithium and reduce the demand.
    All the best to your family 🙂

  • @tombratfred3102
    @tombratfred3102 ปีที่แล้ว +24

    Watt per kilo(gram) is a measure of power density. The commonly used unit for energy density is Wh/kg. 12% degradation after 350 cycles makes this unsuitable for storage. Remains to be seen if they can improve this manyfold.

    • @stefanweilhartner4415
      @stefanweilhartner4415 ปีที่แล้ว

      depends what the max and min charge was. if they can quadruple the life by keeping it between 30 and 70%, it would already be very interesting

    • @tombratfred3102
      @tombratfred3102 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@stefanweilhartner4415 Then you would use 40 Wh/kg, which is quite poor.

    • @SkepticalCaveman
      @SkepticalCaveman 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@tombratfred3102well if the price is low enough, then it will still be viable for stationary storage. Maybe it could be charged close to 100% only a few times a year in emergency situations.

  • @GoCoyote
    @GoCoyote ปีที่แล้ว +14

    I have heard of many battery chemistries talked about, but there is a large valley of death between the lab and mass production. If we can get very cheap low energy density batteries for stationary energy storage, that can free up the higher energy density batteries for EVs.

    • @GoCoyote
      @GoCoyote ปีที่แล้ว

      @@orionbetelgeuse1937
      At this point lithium battery recycling is just starting to take off, and it is proving to to be economically viable and technically feasible to recover the materials. Cycle life is a lot more complex than the standard rating. The standard rating is for the battery to have 80% of its original capacity after the rated one hour charge and discharge rate.
      There are further complexities in the charge and discharge curve, but this provides a good basic standard. So a battery with a 1C charge and a 1C discharge rate will charge to 100% in an hour, and discharge to 0% in an hour. A battery with a 0.5C charge rate and a 2C discharge rate will charge to 50% in an hour, and fully charge in two hours, and fully discharge in half an hour. Any charge or discharge cycle that is slower or not a a complete charge or discharge will extend the cycle life. So two 50% discharge cycles at half the normal charge and discharge rate does not equal a full cycle, but a fraction of a cycle.
      The result is that a battery rated for 2000 cycles will have up to an equivalent of 5000 to 70000 cycles. As most stationary storage batteries use lithium iron batteries, and they generally have a 10,000 cycle rating, they will last even more, up to 25,000 cycles. And unlike lead acid batteries that have a cycle life cliff, the 80% capacity of lithium batteries is still quite usable, especially in stationary storage where gravimetric density is not an issue.

  • @markwindsor914
    @markwindsor914 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Like your channel but please sort out your units!!! Energy density is Wh/kg. This is important. W/kg is power density. Confusing these will be the cause of some big problems.

  • @hemaccabe4292
    @hemaccabe4292 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Hope things are going okay in Thailand.

  • @brunopadovani7347
    @brunopadovani7347 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Sounds good for stationary home and grid storage, but the energy density doesn't seem high enough for EVS.

  • @hemaccabe4292
    @hemaccabe4292 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    They say this is only appropriate for grid, not Toyota.

  • @417ah7
    @417ah7 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Another very informative report, thanks.
    This is why your channel has become one of my favorites. Subscribed.

  • @joemaher958
    @joemaher958 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    $7 per kwh was for the active ingredients not the finished cell. I’m not sure how that compares to the current LFP or NMC

  • @southpike1000
    @southpike1000 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    This is perfect for grid-tied storage. If sodium storage can be made very cheaply, it can usher in the age of renewables.

  • @wlhgmk
    @wlhgmk ปีที่แล้ว +13

    For static applications, longevity is arguably the most important characteristic. Doesn't sound like they have this yet. If successful, this design would reduce the demand for Li, bring down the price and make EVs cheaper. Some economists say that a linear reduction of the price of an EV increases its market exponentially. That may be the real effect of a better grid storage - the greater adoption of EVs.

    • @lionelwylie2326
      @lionelwylie2326 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yes a linear reduction of the cost most goods does tend to lead to an exponential increase in demand for said good. We are starting to see that for EV sales now. This is somewhat countered by the current limited supply of the vehicles. These battery's look very promising and if they scale the effect would be two fold. It will dramatically increase the take up of battery energy storage, which is critical if we want to transition to a more sustainable energy future. It will also free up the supply of Lithium for the production of EVs dropping the price, therefore increasing the number of people who can afford them exponentially.

    • @eugeneeugene3313
      @eugeneeugene3313 ปีที่แล้ว

      This is not for static apps. It is for cars.

  • @bashful228
    @bashful228 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    On important things about saline is that you don’t need to de-rate the power discharge/changing to manage any thermal issues as they must with lithium ion.
    And often is their were thermal issues if you’re using saline electrolyte is like a forecaster in every cell!

  • @daveh6356
    @daveh6356 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Not even grid-scale or renewable applications, imagine a $1000, fridge-sized battery in your garage giving you all-week, off-peak electricity prices outages be damned. The uptake of such a product would be immense. And that's before you add solar or wind to charge it.

  • @jpmackin
    @jpmackin ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Sam, your videos are the most informative yet unbiased..thank you for your hard work!

  • @jimhofoss9982
    @jimhofoss9982 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    One key point is the rapid deterioration of this cell. Sodium eat up the aluminum quickly, indicated by its 20% loss of capacity after only 345 charge/discharge cycles. So while being made of abundant elements, they don’t, imo, reach the criteria of a sustainable battery for energy storage, at least on the large scale. Changing out the cells after a couple years service doesn’t equate to an economical solution. I think pumped hydroelectric projects are cool, no batteries required, the water is pumped with solar or wind to elevation, and this is is your energy storage. Hydro electric generators can be easily valved to produce the exact power required to the grid during high demand times, or days when solar or wind energy production is poor.

  • @Whatsamattau2
    @Whatsamattau2 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Thx for your hard work and providing us with current research re: fossil-free-energy. And of course, all the best to you, your wife and kids. I’ve commented before that my sister is now 17+ years cancer free from her stage 4 diagnosis; I hope and pray the same outcome for your dear wife. Take care

    • @hemaccabe4292
      @hemaccabe4292 ปีที่แล้ว

      This doesn’t say it could be used by Toyota. They say it’s only for grid storage.

  • @tomkelly8827
    @tomkelly8827 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Sodium sounds like a very good material to use. It is so extremely and easily abundant everywhere there is an ocean. This battery does not sound like it is ready and I wonder if aluminum is needed. It would be ideal if chlorine was needed instead so that the batteries could just be made from the waste from a seawater purification plant.

  • @artboymoy
    @artboymoy ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Would love to see this game changer happen. Currently have panels on my house but would like to have a cheap and safer storage solution than what is currently out there at the moment. Another idea to not have to have a large amount of grid storage that I've seen talked about is that if more and more homes get EVs and solar and storage, that the grid's storage could actually come from those that are tied into the grid... But like I said, it's just an idea.

    • @stevepriority4219
      @stevepriority4219 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      The future is here now. You want to get a Lifepo4 battery. They're not going to catch on fire as they don't use cobolt. Tesla and a few other car companies are already using them in some of their cars and they are the go to battery for home power storage.

    • @baneverything5580
      @baneverything5580 ปีที่แล้ว

      I can show you hundreds of stories about "amazing new battery/cure/treatment/etc etc etc" and nothing ever happens. How many times have they cured cancer now? What happened?

    • @waqasahmed939
      @waqasahmed939 ปีที่แล้ว

      It'd be pretty weird to see wars for salt... again

  • @Beatles4Sale.
    @Beatles4Sale. ปีที่แล้ว +10

    This will be amazing if it happens. I am confident that there are so many different people working on the problem of better batteries that this problem will be solved. It will also be amazing one day if it’s economical to bring to market EV batteries that can go 500-1000 miles on a charge. Much fewer charging stations will be required. Probably not in my lifetime! ❤️❤️❤️

    • @sodiumdrive4500
      @sodiumdrive4500 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yeah...it won't.

    • @baneverything5580
      @baneverything5580 ปีที่แล้ว

      I can show you hundreds of stories about "amazing new battery/cure/treatment/etc etc etc" and nothing ever happens. How many times have they cured cancer now? What happened?

  • @richh650
    @richh650 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Thank you, Sam, for reporting on these ongoing battery advances. This important information is basically non-existent anywhere else. It is MUCH APPRECIATED!

  • @antonywooster6783
    @antonywooster6783 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for the program. A very interesting development indeed!

  • @markrowland1366
    @markrowland1366 ปีที่แล้ว

    I encouraged you when praiseing your presintation, a year ago. You have improved greatly since then. Thankyou and congratulations.

  • @fieldsmalcolm
    @fieldsmalcolm ปีที่แล้ว

    Hardest working TH-camr there is. We appreciate you. Thanks.

  • @bjornhelgason1879
    @bjornhelgason1879 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    It is interesting to see all the articles on how the love of many peoples lifes is their teslas.

  • @jasonrobards7695
    @jasonrobards7695 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hopefully adopted after other tweaks and yes the answer to many problems in battery production.

  • @scottclayton4184
    @scottclayton4184 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Have you looked at Lyten for a vehicle specific application of a 3D graphene Lithium Sulfer battery? I would be curious what your thoughts are.

  • @waqasahmed939
    @waqasahmed939 ปีที่แล้ว

    Another interesting thing from this, is that it could make :
    Canada, Pakistan, Chile, Poland, Ethiopia, and Peru become incredibly rich.
    These are the places with the largest salt mines

  • @terl99
    @terl99 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I read that the location of the production of the battery has a very high impact on the environmental balance. So if sodium aluminium battery can be produced close to the manufacturers plant which is also hopefully close to the sales market it would be a big benefit. I think sooner or later there will be new types of batteries on the market there are just too many companies and organizations doing research in this field. In my point of view there should be standard for batteries like there is for smaller devices. So battery size and technology can be used according to the current need then i would also be possible to buy car and batteries separately

    • @CountingStars333
      @CountingStars333 ปีที่แล้ว

      Who cares where it's produced... Transport is cheap.

    • @terl99
      @terl99 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@CountingStars333 the overwhelming majority of lithium batteries are produced in china. China is also within the top mining countries for lithium. So it's more or less a monopoly with a big fat price dictate... you still don't care? In addition the energy production in china is still mostly done with coal which undermines the ecological benefits of an electric car.

  • @etmax1
    @etmax1 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I think you're getting some of the technologies muddled, Lithium batteries are operational from about -10C through to about +60C although they lose a lot of capacity below 5-10C. If the are charged above about 70C the chemistry becomes unstable. so these sodium batteries at around 100C operate considerably below standard sodium batteries (~400C) but still well above lithium. BTW, lithium fires happen not because the batteries are running at up to 60C but because something happens that cause the battery to go above 70C resulting in thermal runaway that can ignite the electrolyte or maybe create water that then sends the lithium ballistic.

  • @davidinkster1296
    @davidinkster1296 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    It is great news; not necessarily for EVs in the next 5 years, but it shows that many researchers believe that Li batteries are not the be-all and end-all in battery technology. Bodes well for our long-term future.

  • @csjrogerson2377
    @csjrogerson2377 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    15x cheaper!! Strange, the CATL video about their sodium batteries says they are 20-40% cheaper. That would be 94% cheaper - somebody is telling porky pies.

  • @stefanweilhartner4415
    @stefanweilhartner4415 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    if they can double the stability, then with an initial range of 1000km, it is already viable for cars.

  • @lumtavon1952
    @lumtavon1952 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    There is a long way to go!!! Lifespan still to low for any commercial use today.
    Good research but most likely still a long way to get it on the road is my feeling.
    Don't say WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING but COULD!!!!!

  • @johnthomas5806
    @johnthomas5806 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    thanks again for what you do....

  • @Chris-gg3ly
    @Chris-gg3ly ปีที่แล้ว

    Post a link where I can buy one?

  • @glories2276
    @glories2276 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Can it be re-cycle back after breaking down.

  • @Myrslokstok
    @Myrslokstok ปีที่แล้ว +2

    $7 is very good its unlikly to ever be a factor better then that like $0.7 😃, ofcourse the holy grale is 20 specs to fullfill.

  • @flatechcomau
    @flatechcomau 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I heard about gravity batteries and also about other types of battery such as hydrogen or compressed air or lead acid or …
    We can also combine other types of battery with gravity battery. For example if you have led acid battery then more over than using their chemical aspects to store the energy we can use wight as battery to have combinational batteries. If salt batteries be used is gravity batteries as well, then we have combined them both and that gives much more storage capacity.
    When it comes to air compressed batteries that even is more interesting, because we can lift the battery when it is empty and when it is up in the maximum position in the air then, and we don't have any more module to lift to store the energy then we can fill them/it up with liquid (compressed) air that is heavy as well. Then, when they come down to the ground to release their gravity energy, they are much heavier than the first place. After it comes to the ground, then we can still use the compressed air energy of it.
    This idea is very raw and might require some more working around and correction but it shows the main concept

  • @investingthelike111
    @investingthelike111 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    where's the factory for this battery?

  • @BarryObaminable
    @BarryObaminable ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Lithium is just up due to supply and demand. a bunch of automakers seemed to have finally decided that EV might be a thing. Oh .. and also that maybe EV are a little tougher than they have been saying for the past decade.
    Apparently, its not cool to have extra 100 pounds of wires and stuff extra batteries in your vehicles instead of working on better regen.

  • @yourlogicalnightmare1014
    @yourlogicalnightmare1014 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    CONGRATULATIONS YOU WIN: 🏆
    1,000,000th TH-camr to make false claim that new battery tech is allllmost here. It's right over there... just off the infinite horizon

    • @buzzsaw838
      @buzzsaw838 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      aND NUCLEAR FUSION is just 20 YEARS away on that horizon! HONEST! (Consistently for the last 50 years - but hey at least that's a quite reliable track record XD)

    • @AllDogsAreGoodDogs
      @AllDogsAreGoodDogs 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      My, how positive you are.

  • @erwinb3412
    @erwinb3412 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for the video sir .

  • @bjornhelgason1879
    @bjornhelgason1879 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    It would be interesting to know how big ev trucks are doing.
    It may take a æong time to replace the old fleet.
    Same with the school buses.

  • @Gadgit83
    @Gadgit83 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good video communicating the opportunities of the recent developments, and share your enthusiasm and optimism! Would be good if you can also be a bit more critical of their specific wording so we can do like-for-like comparisons. I think their quote was $7/kWh for the 'active' components of the battery. What is the equivalent cost for LIon for the 'active' components. You might find that out of $100/kWh, only $20 is for the 'active' component. The rest goes to e.g. cooling, BMS, the casing, the manufacturing, transport, engineering etc. Plus they're talking about 'low temperature sodium' that is compared to the >400C Molten salt batteries, not -20C for Lion

  • @bradleystephens1333
    @bradleystephens1333 ปีที่แล้ว

    It’s at 4:58 minutes…. I still like your work and topics

  • @Martinko_Pcik
    @Martinko_Pcik ปีที่แล้ว

    What is the price ? If it is multiple times more expensive than existing batteries, it might take as much time as solid state batteries to get into cars. Planes are probably less price sensitive.

  • @Diavire
    @Diavire ปีที่แล้ว +3

    So incredibly sick of hearing about new tech that then never materialises.
    Would be great if people would stop talking about them until they were actually on shelves in volume. TH-cam would be a much quieter place.

    • @timothykeith1367
      @timothykeith1367 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Elon Musk wants to colonize Mars - he is smart, but he is also nuts

    • @Diavire
      @Diavire ปีที่แล้ว

      @@timothykeith1367 ... ok?

    • @Diavire
      @Diavire ปีที่แล้ว

      @@orionbetelgeuse1937 Sounds good. As for jobs, they could instead report on actual work being done. There's tons of interesting stuff going on that doesn't have to "replace all power infrastructure tomorrow" to be enjoyable to watch deep dives on.
      But then, where would these people be without their clickbait.

  • @MrEd2291
    @MrEd2291 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great job!

  • @wilsoneashoian5789
    @wilsoneashoian5789 ปีที่แล้ว

    Batteries are just storage. You need to generate electricity, and solar and wind will not be able to do. Small nuclear power plants can generate enough electricity to make up for the use. As of now, there not enough MW to replace the BTU usage. If you buy the biggest refrigerator in the world, you still need to buy food to store in it.

  • @alb9472
    @alb9472 ปีที่แล้ว

    7$ for the active component? guess that means without wires, packing, electronics. not comparabel to pack prices.

  • @stevestevens9068
    @stevestevens9068 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Watt Hours per Kilogram is not the same as Watts per kilogram. Watt Hours per Kilogram is correctly the measure of Energy per weight (as a substitute for mass). To shorten it changes to non-sense - power per mass. Energy is measures as power for a time duration.
    This shortening for slang science is a very bad practice. It is like saying xxx kilowatts instead of xxx kilowatt hours. 😂

  • @stevenbarrett7648
    @stevenbarrett7648 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I hope you manage to meet up with Bjorn Nyland whilst you are in Thailand, that would be epic !

  • @peceed
    @peceed ปีที่แล้ว

    No one care about energy density for grid batteries. What matters is a lifetime cost per kwh and efficiency.
    7 dollars per kWh is a cost of raw materials, not the cost of battery!

  • @rp9674
    @rp9674 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    That's why if you leave salt in an aluminum pan it sparks

    • @teknosql4740
      @teknosql4740 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      This is not like what you think, the battery the video mean actually "aluminium sulfur battery" and the electrolyte is molten salt which one of them is Sodium chloride

    • @rp9674
      @rp9674 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@teknosql4740 hello future

  • @randomtricksvideos
    @randomtricksvideos ปีที่แล้ว

    Are any of these hitting the market? I seem to see a new batter every couple of days

  • @JohnTaylor-vj4hr
    @JohnTaylor-vj4hr ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Is the $7.00 per Kwh the cost of raw materials? if so then hopefully eventually we can expect the manufactured cost to slowly come down to near this number. As the costs of raw materials for Li ion batteries is considerably higher, the change over is an obvious choice, especially for stationary storage.

    • @greecemobile7610
      @greecemobile7610 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      byd lfp blade battery cost 50$/kwh

    • @liveslowsailfastonlanier1374
      @liveslowsailfastonlanier1374 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      $7 Dollars for active materials. Add to that the cost for materials and production of the cells, cost for making them into modules, cost for making them into containers, add transportation, foundation work, electrical and mechanical integration into a grid system…… energy density may be less important in grid storage than for mobility applications but it still is an important factor as it drives production and logistics cost for overall systems.

  • @oatlegOnYt
    @oatlegOnYt ปีที่แล้ว +1

    It seems that sodium-ion has better density and also don't use scarce materials. I don't know if this people is too optimistic about the cost of sodium-aluminium or the people around sodium-ion is more cautious about the prices, focusing on short term. It could be also package costs, as sodium-ion try to reuse the cell model of lithium, and maybe this Na-Al don't saving costs on that step.

  • @skepticalmechanic
    @skepticalmechanic ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hope your wife gets better… best wishes!

  • @shawncooper8131
    @shawncooper8131 ปีที่แล้ว

    I believe teslas will bypass this cost.... From going from wet to dry battery with mass production. It would mean their battery will also hold more and therefore don't t need as may to do the same thing.

  • @bradleystephens1333
    @bradleystephens1333 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hey Viking I wanted to let you know that there is a image on your video that has nothing to do with your topic it’s a table full with hydraulic control valves and is not a battery FYI ✌🏻

  • @ainschuntayleuhn1147
    @ainschuntayleuhn1147 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Viking: Could you explain the difference between the two types of Sodium?

  • @andreasnewitsch59
    @andreasnewitsch59 ปีที่แล้ว

    Which company was that with the cheapest possible battery ? I'm going to whatch this again.

  • @MARTINA-gc3tq
    @MARTINA-gc3tq ปีที่แล้ว

    Why is not excess daylight and wind generated electricity used to pump sea water up to reservoirs. Then the water is returned via turbines when electricity is required?

  • @hemaccabe4292
    @hemaccabe4292 ปีที่แล้ว

    Don’t need batteries for the grid. That’s silly. Grid storage is hydrogen storage.

  • @alohadave13
    @alohadave13 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video! Loved the details, the graphics, and the animations to explain a rather complicated technology.

  • @Steve-wz5pz
    @Steve-wz5pz ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Another day, another 'breakthrough' that never pans out. Fusion energy; just 30 years away!

  • @mouserr
    @mouserr ปีที่แล้ว

    i wont say solar and wind wont be a part of it but they could be made a primary back up for other systems but the most impactful will be the full and proper integration of the u of ark graphene power system. that 1 is so disruptive it cant be thought of in terms any less than kardashev scale comparisons

  • @PassportBrosBusinessClass
    @PassportBrosBusinessClass ปีที่แล้ว +17

    It should be a rule that current EV being developed must allow owners to replace the battery with new chemistry battery packs when they eventually become available

    • @matthewvu1088
      @matthewvu1088 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      What's stopping you

    • @cold_jay
      @cold_jay ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@matthewvu1088 structural battery

    • @mattgs1671
      @mattgs1671 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Why?
      ICE cars don't have a rule that their engines can be replaced with newer engines.
      Also cars are designed with crumble zones for accident survivability meaning that they are much more disposable than that used to be. Recycling and reuse is more important than upgrading parts.

    • @grahambrown42
      @grahambrown42 ปีที่แล้ว

      Just like you can replace your ICE now?

    • @mattgs1671
      @mattgs1671 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@grahambrown42 How can you easily replace the 10 year old engine with the latest one from a newer model without a lot of re-engineeeing?

  • @bencarignan2711
    @bencarignan2711 ปีที่แล้ว

    Cycle life, cycle life, cycle life. If its going to be used for stationary applications, it needs to have great cycle life.

  • @kimollivier
    @kimollivier ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hasn't there already been a sodium battery manufacturer making pallet sized batteries? Didn't they just go bust?

  • @toml2431
    @toml2431 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great job. Wish I could invest in this. yet i will afyer the market crash.

  • @qkktech
    @qkktech ปีที่แล้ว

    price $7 per kWh is nice. In my country Estonia that will change a lot. Fo Estonia going solar is hard at winter time there is 20x less solar than at summer and at winter time there is 2x more need to energy so when dimensioning 100% solar for june then it will be 2,5% for december if you are lucky and panels are not covered by snow. so going 200% june is even too much and then you need some 90 days worth of storage. That is even too costly at $7 price level. But Estonia can install even 500% worth of wind power so to stabilize that it is more than possible. But still those solar installations make wind more costly

    • @elephantintheroom5678
      @elephantintheroom5678 ปีที่แล้ว

      Most of the Earth's population live in the sunbelt of the world, where solar is great. But wind is best outside of that zone, as you say.

    • @danharold3087
      @danharold3087 ปีที่แล้ว

      I would love to see home owner scale wind solutions that work out.

    • @stevenbarrett7648
      @stevenbarrett7648 ปีที่แล้ว

      Must have wind over there ? Not everything rotates around solar panels

    • @jamesvandamme7786
      @jamesvandamme7786 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yearly storage is a problem. Synthetic fuel might be a solution. Excess production during the summer can be turned into fuel that can be burned in generators or fuel cells. That is inefficient, but the alternative is wasting solar power.

    • @qkktech
      @qkktech ปีที่แล้ว

      @@jamesvandamme7786 internal combustion engine works at best at 30% efficiency conversion from electricity to synthetic fuel is probably at 50% maybe. Now battery electric vehicle may work at 95% So when putting in energy and converting to range synthetic fuel car will have range 100km and battery electric car has 700km the same goes to electric regeneration from synthetic fuel it is 7x more costly. Current batteries give the same economic effectin storage. The biggest proble for synthetic fuels is that actual usefull energy you get out of system is 7x smaller so You must build 7x more powerplants. For Estonia that % under solar must be like20% but for more dence areas it may go like 100% for Netherlands while using batteries it is 7x less

  • @nickmcconnell1291
    @nickmcconnell1291 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Hate to rain on this parade but the only reason Lithium is in short supply is that there are too few refineries that can make the extremely pure versions of Lithium required for batteries.
    The same will be true for sodium batteries. As soon as the number of sodium battery manufacturers goes up, there will also be a lack of refineries for that too.
    Having another element that can be used for batteries in general is a good thing, but Lithium is able to support more energy dense batteries than sodium just by the nature of the atoms themselves.
    I would therefore rather have more Lithium refineries built than waste time on sodium ones unless a faster, more cost effective way to purify the sodium is found…. which might tip the balance in sodium’s favor.
    Oh and by the way do you really want to drive the cost of aluminum up further? That could cause cost increases in building the EV chassis itself.
    Let’s not forget that the US has very little of the world’s bauxite ore too.

    • @enadegheeghaghe6369
      @enadegheeghaghe6369 ปีที่แล้ว

      You missed the fact that there is far more Sodium than Lithium on earth. Its not even close

    • @nickmcconnell1291
      @nickmcconnell1291 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@enadegheeghaghe6369 That’s very correct. However there is more than enough Lithium to easily electrify the entire world. So why spend the money on setting up sodium refineries…. unless they are much much cheaper to do.
      Elon Musk indicated that the state of Nevada alone, in the US, has enough Lithium in easily accessible clay deposits to change all transportation in the US to electric. Sodium would be welcome but not necessary.

    • @enadegheeghaghe6369
      @enadegheeghaghe6369 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@nickmcconnell1291 feel free to avoid any products that feature Sodium batteries. I have no problem with it if it works and is affordable

    • @nickmcconnell1291
      @nickmcconnell1291 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@enadegheeghaghe6369 😆

    • @bashful228
      @bashful228 ปีที่แล้ว

      I know someone who’s been worki by on saline electrolyte batteries for two decades and he says the theoretical density potential of those chemistries is 2400 W/kg while Lithium ion of any kind is 600-800 W/kg iirc. And the costs to manufacture of their prototypes at mass scar would be like the cost to stamp out roofing tiles from cred lay and kiln them. So easy the Roman’s could do it in other words. (If they were supplied with the secret recipe).
      . Much lower BOM than any battery I. Existence today. They can’t get funding to accelerate the developers though, so NREL aren’t choose to accelerate them yet but NREL well understand the the power and energy potentials of their chemistries. Not disinflation to this chemistry actually.

  • @myronp243
    @myronp243 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Anytime the government gets involved in research, believe very little.T
    Let the battery companies do the thinking and research

  • @donaldsmith283
    @donaldsmith283 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you good job

  • @AbelShields
    @AbelShields ปีที่แล้ว +6

    4:30 do you mean Watts per kilo, or Watt-hours per kilo? One is power density, the other is energy density, both useful numbers to know but they mean different things - please make sure you're careful when discussing these.

    • @catherinegrimes2308
      @catherinegrimes2308 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      He is always doing that.
      When I was on holiday last year a man with an electric car thought that Watt-hours and Watts were the same thing, after I corrected him he admitted that he wasn't a scientist. It just shows the poor level of scientific education.

    • @toddclean547
      @toddclean547 ปีที่แล้ว

      I can only figure that it could be Watt-hours per Kilo. Let's let him defend himself. If he is making tech videos, he best clean this up.

  • @sagecoach
    @sagecoach ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Storing your own energy at a low cost for a longer time is important too, seasonal time periods would be ideal.

    • @aesma2522
      @aesma2522 ปีที่แล้ว

      How much would you need to store though to last a season ? Hundreds if not thousands of kWh.

    • @sagecoach
      @sagecoach ปีที่แล้ว

      @@aesma2522 It's right on your electric bill, just add them up. Far north or south places on earth get little or no sun in winter so that portion of their consumption could be vital. Storing heat in a sand battery could reduce the size of the electric battery. Thanks for your comment.

    • @aesma2522
      @aesma2522 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@sagecoach Well it's not that simple as I'm in France where "all electric" has been promoted since the building of nuclear plants, including heating. So the first thing I would do is switch to wood heating, for example. Or indeed some kind of heat battery if it could really be heated in the summer with excess electricity and used in the winter, but I'm a bit sceptical about that technology. One major consideration would be being offgrid or not, if I'm on the grid, it's probably better to use some grid electricity and size the solar accordingly, rather than trying to be "all solar" and needing a football pitch sized solar array costing a fortune.

    • @sagecoach
      @sagecoach ปีที่แล้ว

      @@aesma2522 Ground source heat pump cooling and heating stores heat in the ground when cooling and recover it when heating. This is a good example when soil conditions and the in-ground loop are optimal. Every situation requires study like you are doing. Thanks for the conversation. I think nuclear waste should be reprocessed as fuel for new nuclear technology power generation.

  • @lkrnpk
    @lkrnpk ปีที่แล้ว +1

    “Where we’re going we don’t need lithium” 😀😀

  • @PvMLad
    @PvMLad ปีที่แล้ว

    Imo a 10 hour battery is strictly 5x worse than a 2 hour battery. To make a 2 hour battery last 10 hours simply drain it at 1/5th of it's max discharge rate.
    People claiming higher hours is better makes no logical sense.

  • @virtual-viking
    @virtual-viking ปีที่แล้ว +1

    _If it needs to be dirt cheap, make it out of dirt._

  • @petercrossley1069
    @petercrossley1069 ปีที่แล้ว

    You surely don’t mean an energy density of 100 watts per kilo which is very low these days.

  • @chrisheath2637
    @chrisheath2637 ปีที่แล้ว

    Doesn't anyone take any notice ? Tesla figured out that the way to make battery cells on a huge scale (at high speed) is to make them cylindrical - like a bottling plant. Flat plate batteries are relatively slow to produce (that's not me saying that - that's Tesla who have figured this out...). Sure - you can pack rectangular objects close together...But does that matter in grid storage? You lose very little volume actually with cylinders, and they can allow some "space" for cooling or warming fluids, if necessary...(for the Elon fan geeks, the packing density of cylinders is 0.9069) Coincidence ?

  • @JRP3
    @JRP3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Watts per kg is power density, watt hours per kg is energy storage density, they are not the same thing. Also you misunderstood the operating temperature, it's lower than other molten salt batteries but much higher than lithium which operate at ambient temperature. A battery fire has nothing to do with operating temperature. Hard to believe you make these basic errors after covering battery technology for so long.

    • @JRP3
      @JRP3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@orionbetelgeuse1937 Yes facts do matter.

  • @sherrjo
    @sherrjo ปีที่แล้ว

    There was never a reason to invest vast quantities of research in battery tech, now with home and car batteries and literally billions of $ being thrown at this we will continue to see the tech improve at an exceptional rate. Just think if everyone can have panels and batteries self sufficiency would be great. I live in a very windy area. I'm fairly sure I could get most of my energy all year round from wind but storage is an issue.

  • @brucec954
    @brucec954 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Who knows what battery chemistry will takeover next but with all the research happening now, it’s clear that EVs and grid storage will dominate

    • @CountingStars333
      @CountingStars333 ปีที่แล้ว

      TRAINS SHOULD DOMINATE GODDAMMIT. Not vehicles of any kind.

    • @danielcarroll3358
      @danielcarroll3358 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@CountingStars333 Only vehicles of *THAT* kind.

  • @auPython
    @auPython ปีที่แล้ว +4

    You did get it slightly wrong in your presentation. The $7 per kilowatt hour you mentioned is, as you said, only for the material.
    Whereas the prices you mentioned for the other batteries seem to be for completed batteries.
    The cost of turning the material, at $7 per kilowatt hour, into useable batteries was not covered by your presentation. You may have accidentally correctly priced completed Sodium batteries at $21 per kilowatt hour, which of course would be a huge reduction in the price of stationary batteries.

  • @frankcoffey
    @frankcoffey ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I’m predicting 3 new battery types per year for the next decade. I don’t think one will be the “winner” I think we will need all of them for different applications.

    • @danharold3087
      @danharold3087 ปีที่แล้ว

      If we find the right one or 3 sort of thing it will be enough.

  • @PCLoadLetter
    @PCLoadLetter ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I groaned when I heard you use the word naysayer over and over talking about sodium ion batteries. You just reminded me that the Latin word for Sodium is Natrium, hence the chemical symbol Na. Naysayers talking about Natrium?

  • @eclipsenow5431
    @eclipsenow5431 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good for up to a few hours. But if you want to store Sydney's power for 2 days - that's when you pump water up a hill.

    • @patrickhenigin4805
      @patrickhenigin4805 ปีที่แล้ว

      OK, pump runoff from hydro electric plants back above the dam when the sun shines.
      Hoist concret blocks uphill and harvest the energy at night as they ride the cable back down.
      There are many "mechanical battery" potential designs.
      Concrete blocks take a long time to wear out.

    • @eclipsenow5431
      @eclipsenow5431 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@patrickhenigin4805 Concrete blocks emit CO2 in the making, and the blocks get in the way of each other as they get higher, reducing the 'head'. Off-river Pumped Hydro Electricity Storage (PHES) can be built faster than on-river, cheaper, safer, and with no ecological concerns about disrupting a fragile river system. Build PHES within a few dozen miles of a river. Build it all at once - the upper and lower reservoir and turbine rooms all together so you’re done in 3 years. Off-river avoids expensive spillways for 1 in 500 year flash floods. When finished, slowly pump the water from the river. Cover in floating solar panels to reduce evaporation. Top up from the river every few months. Satellite topological maps show most continents have over 100 TIMES more sites than they need. Pick your best 1% and you’re done. Professor Blakers shows the world situation (after a brief Aussie introduction). th-cam.com/video/_Lk3elu3zf4/w-d-xo.html It loses some water to evaporation, but only 1/5th the water of coal thermal plants!
      See here: iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2516-1083/abeb5b#prgeabeb5bs6
      PHES can be really big or really small, like this one for Walpole, an Aussie town of 500. www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-01/renewable-energy-fix-walpole-power-problems/100579700

    • @robertfonovic3551
      @robertfonovic3551 ปีที่แล้ว

      Dream on

    • @eclipsenow5431
      @eclipsenow5431 ปีที่แล้ว

      ​@@robertfonovic3551 Off-river Pumped Hydro Electricity Storage (PHES) can be built faster than on-river, cheaper, safer, and with no ecological concerns about disrupting a fragile river system. Build PHES within a few dozen km's of a river. Build it all at once - the upper and lower reservoir and turbine rooms all together so you’re done in 2 to 3 years. Off-river avoids expensive spillways for 1 in 500 year flash floods. When finished, slowly pump the water from the nearby river. Cover in floating solar panels to reduce evaporation. Top up from the river every few months. Satellite maps show most continents have over 100 TIMES more sites than they need. Pick your best 1% and you’re done. Professor Andrew Blakers from the ANU presents the data. th-cam.com/video/_Lk3elu3zf4/w-d-xo.html This loses some water to evaporation, but only 1/5th the water of coal thermal plants!
      See here: iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2516-1083/abeb5b#prgeabeb5bs6
      PHES can be really big or really small, like this one for Walpole, an Aussie town of 500. www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-01/renewable-energy-fix-walpole-power-problems/100579700

    • @bashful228
      @bashful228 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@patrickhenigin4805 concrete crane storage has been debunked over and over.

  • @KOl-xj4jt
    @KOl-xj4jt ปีที่แล้ว

    one battery changing everything

  • @beatreuteler
    @beatreuteler ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Unfortunately it is missing proof of truth that it is lower cost. It is all just forward looking and hope.

    • @SWR112
      @SWR112 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Unfortunately this Chanel is a bit “ This is the next game changer” 😁 Still interesting to hear about but you think is it a year out or a decade.

    • @trinsit
      @trinsit ปีที่แล้ว +1

      For real! Just tell me when something is hitting the commercial market. Not when it's in prototype phase.

    • @beatreuteler
      @beatreuteler ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@SWR112 You name it. My guess: Closer to a decade.

    • @beatreuteler
      @beatreuteler ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@trinsit I feel sorry for you but this isn't even prototype phase. This is research. Prototype phase will be, if best comes to best in 2 or so years.

    • @williamcrowley5506
      @williamcrowley5506 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@trinsit then go find a channel that talks about what has already happened instead of the future. 🙄

  • @paddle_shift
    @paddle_shift ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Not sure what 15 times cheaper means.

    • @Loganl1980
      @Loganl1980 ปีที่แล้ว

      For the same price, you can store 15x as much energy.

    • @paddle_shift
      @paddle_shift ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@Loganl1980 15 times cheaper is mathematically and linguistically nonsense. It is someone who is trying to use less words in order to convey magnitude. The problem is it ends up making no sense at all. It's like someone who is in an argument and says "you are a big zero, i am 100 times smarter than you". They think they are saying they are twice as smart as you but are really saying they too are a big zero because 100 times 0 equals zero. "As much" is also problematic as it is not the same as "more than". 15× "As much" is 10x15=150 15× "more than" is (10×15)+10=160

  • @lutherp40
    @lutherp40 ปีที่แล้ว

    tyvm

  • @fritsfmn
    @fritsfmn ปีที่แล้ว

    It is not molten !! Sodium is molten around 500 c

  • @jamesdonaghy9143
    @jamesdonaghy9143 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Battery storage cost was never about anything other than political will. There will certainly be other potential techs out there. In the near future someone will use quantum computers to model battery chemistry on the atomic scale using novel materials. Poverty is a choice, pollution is a choice.

  • @jameshack485
    @jameshack485 ปีที่แล้ว

    Feels like a repeat of the LFP battery story. LFP is discovered in the US but the Chinese commercialize it at scale and make money from it. I just don't see the US leading a sodium ion battery industry

    • @thexperimenter88
      @thexperimenter88 ปีที่แล้ว

      That was before the trade war with China. Things are different now

  • @morganmorse2086
    @morganmorse2086 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    If I had a dollar every time I heard about a miraculous battery breakthrough that wound up not panning out, I’d be richer than Elon Musk. Post a video when this thing is commercially available for testing.

    • @miakiceh
      @miakiceh ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @Morgan Morse "if I had a dollar"(quote)
      If hearing about breaking news... and new science doesn't spark an innovative bone in you... your highly unlikely to become wealthier than Mr Musk. (ijs)
      Those of us that like to; " take this piece of the puzzle and add that with another piece of the puzzle" appreciates Mr Evans for putting these informative and entertaining presentations together.
      Have you tried cat videos? 😄

    • @timothykeith1367
      @timothykeith1367 ปีที่แล้ว

      The road and bridge infrastructure in the U.S.A. is already severely underfunded. Grid battery storage would cost more than the highway system itself.

    • @danielcarroll3358
      @danielcarroll3358 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@timothykeith1367 But highway infrastructure in the US is underfunded because the highway user taxes are so low. The federal gas tax hasn't been raised in a quarter century. Six cents per liter is 😂.

    • @miakiceh
      @miakiceh ปีที่แล้ว

      @@timothykeith1367 "grid battery storage would cost more"(quote)
      That's circumstantial... as technology and materials becomes more affordable costs may not be much of an obstacle.

    • @timothykeith1367
      @timothykeith1367 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@miakiceh You may find humor in Thomas Edison's criticism of the storage battery:
      "The storage battery is, in my opinion, a catch-penny, a sensation, a mechanism for swindling by stocking companies. The storage battery is one of those peculiar things which appeal to the imagination, and no more perfect thing could be desired by stock swindlers than that very self-same thing. In 1879, I took up that question, and devised a system of placing storage batteries in houses connected to mains and charging them in the day time, to be discharged in the evening and night to run incandescent lamps."

  • @petersimms4982
    @petersimms4982 ปีที่แล้ว

    Imagine everyone having a battery bank at home😆

  • @davidgeorge7443
    @davidgeorge7443 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Using Sodium, Aluminum batteries for grid storage will free up lithium for EVs

  • @1978rayking
    @1978rayking ปีที่แล้ว

    If batteries are easier to change and recycle and hold up better and hot temperatures and can be improved with solid state crystalline materials. All that is very possible because the price, to change batteries like this for most applications even a few times at those prices would still beat the cost of higher lithium batteries and the cost eventually will get even better. Sodium is the way plus with desalination, humanity will be on the right track.