The last great Ferrari was the Daytona SP3. With the past glut of 1000bhp cars, enthusiasts are more excited about a manual S/T or GT3 now. The F80 is a car for Ferrari collectors. Might be a good idea to put a photo of the car(s) you are talking about on main topics up on your tv screen?
Current hypercars aren’t chasing performance, or power, or speed. They’re chasing money. And in that sense, they’re being perfectly successful. We could say the same about Marvel films. They’re not trying to win Oscars, they’re trying to make money…
I do agree with what they're saying. IF Ferrari launched a car, basic interior, but gorgeous to look at and it weighed around 1000KG, 6 speed manual, 700 horsepower N/A V12... ahem like a GMA T.50... they could make a line up of cars for motoring purists, call it the "Purista" line and they would sell like hot cakes.
Problem is its looks are completely undone by its little brother the T33. that cars existence is a constant reminder how badly they got the T50's visual design. Do you like the t50 or t33's looks more??
T.50 is more beautiful and timeless than any other hypercar, except for T.33 which is simply a masterclass for the ages. But I can’t imagine T50 owners being too upset!
Hypercar owners are just investors now. They don’t drive. So what difference to them how bad it is as long as it appreciates. Manufacturers have lost the ball chasing maximum profits at the expense of passion. Look at the ridiculous amount of customization and billing.
Some of them do, but it's a minority. The rest of it is just, well let's be real, companies aren't just interested in selling to enthusiasts. They want the money and value.
The restomod market clearly shows us what car enthusiasts want in their cars. The Ferrari F80 is everything those cars aren't, except being incredibly expensive.
My reaction to the W1 is a bit like the reaction Lister has to Rimmers Risk story in Red Dwarf, "I'm in a state of non-grippedness, I am completely smegging ungripped"
There are some problems with these hypercars; Valkyrie and t.50. Valkyrie breaks all the rules and goes extreme with a form factor and experience like nothing else. T.50 reincarnates the F1 and offers a focused, engaging road car experience. The other offerings just feel like series production cars turned up to 11 and just a bit.... samey. Koenigsegg are an oddball on the sidelines, just doing their own thing, which is cool, but AMG, Ferrari, and McLaren just look a bit boring. To add another problem; the tourbillon has gone absolutely mad with a v16, and I love it.
I think the variance in hypercar buyers is enough that speaking to one owner won't be very representative. I don't think the statistics needed to get an understanding of the hypercar market are ever going to be available publicly, so all we have is speculation
Regarding the Maserati speed limit alert, one of the EU requirements is: Ease of Override: Drivers must have the ability to override the ISA system temporarily, like by pressing harder on the accelerator, to maintain control in situations where it’s necessary to exceed the speed limit briefly (e.g., overtaking). It's not clear if this "override" also applies to the alert itself.
Government wants lane assist ---> cars must have electronic steering to do it --------> electronic systems can be hacked ---------> cars must have anti hacking tech --------> cost of cars increase for new ones ------------> cost to repair cars increase ----------> insurance premiums go up. Net result customer pays for something they didn't ask for and don't want and in many cases will try to turn off.
For me, the Veyron was the end of the road. Once we reached 1000 HP we should have said "right boys, enough of this, what else is there ?". Honestly who cares that your hypercar now has 1200 or 1500 or 2000 hp? Is it really that much better? Does it really make any difference ? It's like comparing 1 million light years with 2 million light years. From a practical view it's completely irrelevant.
Agree with you... this is the reason why the Pagani Utopia and GM T50 are getting such good responses for making manual V12's in today's era and the "new" hypercars with their tech are not.
The 288 GTO started production in 1984 and ended in 1987. The production of the 959 started in 1987. I think it's fair to say the Ferrari 288GTO was the first one on its own.
Increasingly, I just don’t care. The majority of enthusiasts will never see one of these in the flesh, with TH-cam and a “Journo" going sideways on a track somewhere in Spain being the closest we’ll ever get. These cars are built for collectors (or worse, investors) and will never be driven and dynamically enjoyed. The premium manufactures will keep making them as the low volume and high price keeps them both legal and profitable. As you say, EV just doesn’t do it, and neither does sub-premium builders. Nobody who got rich by being smart is going to sink money into a Lotus or similar. Give me 200 bhp and a sub ton kerb weight any day!
We have got to the stage where we are all like pilots doing pre flight checks; turning off all the driving aids. We now need a new kind of car, not quite Restomod. You mentioned something similar Dan in the first live Podcast; we need modern classics remanufactured with components changed and infotainment updated to cost near their original price. Recycling at its best. You saw it here first.
It is not that the power is too much, it is that nobody wants downsizing, turbos and batteryelectric. Especially the latter and heavy weight. When you are driving you are never punching it from zero really. And if you are, without launch when it is more involving. Saying that cars are too fast is putting sheep on a wolf. It is all the emission stuff, electric stuff, driving ””aids”” aka dangerous annoyances and the heavy weight.
My wife has a Grecale trofeo with same infotainment. You can turn all that stuff off and it saves to your driver profile, it’s just not that clear in the menu. I buy a lot of new cars, what I tend to do is go to dealer when car lands, I’ll watch some online videos, then spend some time setting it all up, then come back later that day or next to do the handover. And re electrified hypercars, who really cares other than existing owners stuck on the merrygoround
A new hyper Car needs to get through Qualifying. Q1 - Does it look good, if yes go to Q2. Q2 - Is the interior good no haptic controls, if yes go to Q3. Q3-Does it Ride, Sound, Accelerate and Stop like a hyper Car, if yes go to podium short list of which two or three to buy. Problem with Valkyrie is the engine problems not yet solved, the T50 doesn't have the looks, F80 looks, W1 looks. How many cars would get qualifying ?
With regard to the bings and bongs and Andrew’s analogy of getting into your car early on a wet Monday morning to be confronted with all that SH**. If all cars in the future do the binging and bonging and all that stuff, I may have to just not bother, lest I find myself having a Michael Douglas in Falling Down episode….
they cant tho. all those brands have tiny production numbers and are exempt from most regulations. Ferraris sells thousands of cars a year and has much stricter regulations
It’s a shame EuroNCAP don’t take into account the ‘distractions’, forget about warnings, how about changing the temperature. They should also think about the mass of the car, the energy involved in two 3 tonne EV behemoths colliding at 70mph don’t bear thinking about!
Dad’s new BMW X1 does the same with the speed limit display, but does stop blinking after a period of time. Admittedly I didn’t spend much time trying to see if I could turn it off in my short journey the other day, atleast he doesn’t have a head up display
I don't know where I've read it. But I think no other sentence encapsulate better what's happening with hypercars as the following one: " Hypercars are a problem already solved"
Ferrari has gone to the dogs, the styling is terrible, and they are too expensive. I say this as a Ferrari owner, I am not interested in anything currently on sale. Gordon Murray has the right idea.
It’s the new car company’s too. Can any small manufacturer make anything other than a ridiculously expensive and extreme hyper car? How about an M5 competitor? A wagon?
Does anyone like paddleshift as opposed to manual?I drove manuals for thirty years and cannot wait to see the back of them. The argument that you get a far better track time with manual car is untrue as well. I can understand that people like them and enjoy driving them. Not my cup of tea though.
I can imagine the sentiment about the f80 will change when we start seeing them in the wild and possibly in a different color. I think it will actually look better in a different color. Black or silver. Or even with a mild livery. But also the problem is they released the Sp3 not long ago and seems to be stepping on their own toes.
The Nilu 27, Utopia and T50 are definitely on the other end of the scale which is necessary for balance, however if you can get a battery, ERS or motor to get 1 more ps the hypercar manufacturers will eek it out without exception!
Yes, they are off the list if they don't buy it. You couldn't get a SP3 if you had a SP1 or 2 and got rid of it. So yes, there's a massive game being played here.
For the hyper car customer it’s also about the club, the exclusivity of having something others don’t. It’s less about the driving and performance, as a lot won’t really get driven, and certainly not to the point that tests the capability of the modern hyper car. Also, at this financial wealth bracket, it’s about finding different & smart places/markets to put your wealth. Problems we don’t understand. They are not depositing money in their bank accounts via a mobile app!!…like the regular person, not when you are dealing with 7-8-9 digit figures.
It's exactly what you guys said, the F80 and W1 break no new ground and are incredibly uninteresting because of it. For the ridiculous cost that they are, they should have both been as nuts as the Valkyrie or RB17. Why wasn't the F80 literally a 499P for the road!? It's ridiculous how I'm more excited by the new GT3..................................😮
Because you two are interesting, this was interesting. But 'Hyper-cars' now aren't very interning ( apart maybe for their engineering I guess ). Some people might say that are interesting / exciting to drive, but if that is the case, why do their owners drive them so little? Agree entirely with you about the madness of screens. I personally think appalling visibility out of newer cars is dangerous. I have owned classics - MK2 Jag / Triumph 2000 etc - which didn't have or need wing mirrors. All round visibility was that good.
Gents, you should give yourself more credit here. The way a hypercar is received by the press has a lot of influence on the status of a given car in the publics eye and this translates into long term value. These cars are a status symbol more than anything else, so even if they won't be driven at all it still matters a lot how they drive, how they look and what ppl of your profession think about them. Sure the F80 sold out, but will it have the status of a Enzo or even F50 after 10-20 years? I doubt it. So it's long term value is far from guaranteed IMHO
I can't see why someone would want a W1 or F80 over a Jesko, which has been for sale since 2021. Personal preference, but I think the 'egg trumps them both on looks and the difference in performance isn't anything that can be measured outside of an empty race track... Which 90% of them will probably never see.
If it is a great track time you are after a secondhand radical for 35k will outperform most hypercars for a fraction of the cost. Hyper car I would take the Aston Valkyrie or The Mercedes Amg one. Classic car The 300Sl Gullwing. Classic racer the AC Cobra thanks. Supercar a 720s Maclaren. A friend bought one of those for 160k in 2020. About double your loaded new BMW or Audi large Suv. 720s a great buy. As has been pointed out on here I cannot a afford a hypercar!
That was an excellent podcast. I draw the conclusion Hypercars have driven up a cul de sac. Having said that, I suspect buyers are attracted because they can afford them when most cannot, and that is a personal endorsement of their achievements. Maybe they are like expensive watches having an appeal through their exaggerated complication. Beyond that they seem pointless. Re. the Maser Harry Metcalfe found a way to silence the hateful noises which then did not return by default. That’s my take from his weekly video. Happy hunting Dan.
Far be it from me to blow smoke up the exhaust pipes of credible motoring journalists like yourselves, but hypercars are not aimed at you or your loyal and very well informed Ti audience. They once were, of course, because magazines like Car, Autocar and Evo were the only way hypercar makers could reach and impress their wealthy target market. Today, thanks to TH-cam (sorry), your roost is ruled by an army of self-appointed experts with no real experience or understanding of what makes a good car. Even the most extravagant car buyers seem to have lost their appetite for analysis, in favour of hyperbolic presentation and bigger numbers.
Reasons W1 and F80 are not that exciting is that we already have a current generation "holy trinity" on the market. That is AMG One, Valkyrie and GM T.50, these 3 have achieved whatever was there to achieve in a hypercar world. Valkyrie ultimate track car, T.50 ultimate analog car and AMG One with literal F1 tech in it. How you can beat this? By going hybrid with 1200HP? I don't think so, if you want more HP you go with Koenigsegg or Bugatti.
F50 is manual rwd ~3,100.0 lbs/1,405.0 kgs mid engined NA V12 It also is curvaceous… whereas the f40 is squared off and has forced induction V8.. though the european specs is a fair bit lighter at 2,700.0 lbs/1,224.0 kgs
the big missing piece from the discussion here is that Porsche, Ferrari, Mclaren and to some extent Aston produce enough cars a year so that they are caught up in EU legislation that the tiny manufacturers like Pagani, GMA, Zenvo etc are not. Those tiny manufacturers do not have to adhere to the current regulations around emissions in the same way as the bigger manufacturers do. I am sure if Ferrari were allowed, they would make a v12 hypercar, but that is not possible. So the next best thing is to link their racing to the car in elicit some kind of emotion. Additionally, the comment that what the "TI" bubble believe the market wants is irrelevant because the rich dont care how they spend their money is not true at all. The way to prove my point is to look at the used prices of all these hypercars. The same rich people are buying the same cars, but once in the used market, they are buying the cars they actually want rather than just buying something thats the newest. Case in point, look at the used values of Zonda's vs Huaryas. What I am trying to say is that just because sells out when it is new, doesnt mean that that is what the market actually wants. Especially in the world of Ferrari which we all know most of the buying is done speculatively.
Its like you say; we are not the correct audience to comment on the new hyper/super/sports car, and as long as they are sold before they even are produced, we are clearly talking to a wall……
I believe that this increasing bemoaning which is happening with the current car enthusiast generation is as a result of the cars outgrowing said generation too fast. If we liken car enthusiasts to gamers it is like Sony releasing the PlayStation 8 with pricing adjusted for future inflation.
If you don’t have the money to buy a hypercar, you may not get why they exist. Also, it's a technology showcase for manufacturers, a technology that trickles down years later to sport cars.
Hypercar game is just awful right now, W1 , F80 this are not ture new haypercars. For me new Holly Trinity are Rimac Nevera R, Koenigsegg Jesko Absolut, GM T.50 😊❤ Great podcast episode
When you collect stuff, you want the full set. Honestly it’s as simple as that. You don’t have issues 1>100 of something and then miss out issue 22 because it wasn’t brilliant. You’re over analysing it…
Lets be honest, modern supercars / hyper cars are all tyre limited and have been for at least 15 years (which is of course why back in the day the P1, LaLa and 918 all lapped within tenths of each other because they were all on the same tyre...) In fact, we are now at the point where even "Normal" cars are now tyre limited, ie a modern M3, or something like a civic Type R etc Personally i drive a car with tiny 195 section tyres because THIS is where the fun an ammusement on our roads actually is......
Does it even matter if 99,99999 of us with complete certainty won't ever own one? 🤔 I kind of like what they are even if they aren't 100% my cup of tea. Am more picky about my own hot hatch than any of the hypercars 😉
Idk but when a sedan in todays world can come off the factory with more than 600 hp, what could you expect from a hypercar, to have 1000 kg and 700 hp?
Hyper EV’s will never sell in big numbers irrelevant of how fast they are. Look at very expensive watches and you can see where the money is spent on an automatic watch with the engineering in it, the skill to make it. You could never sell a quartz watch for £100k because it’s got nothing in it that a £10 watch has.
I don't usually comment.... but why no mention of the valkyrie. It's definitely a hyper car with a v12 that belongs on magazine poster. Also you talk about where combustion engines should go and I'd argue it should be following the mechanical watch style of product. In that market the mechanical watch is inferior in alot of ways. Ways in which it is superior is longevity and passion. These companies should be making engines that are interesting in their own right. A straight 5 with a supercharger, 2.2 liter 12 cylinders etc... and stop just grabbing easy power by slapping a turbo on it. Kids did that with cheap Japanese products in the 90s (mk4 supra etc...) And in my opinion this goes for hybrid and electrifyed cars. Example would be doing a i8 style car with a small electric motor and hybusa motor bike engine in it. Anyways rant over hahha
What you're failing to recognise is that Ferrari have just invested Hundreds of Millions in a Brand new state of the art BEV production facility at Maranello. Why would they do that if the future for them as they see it isn't BEV??? The next Ferrari Hypercar will most definitely be a BEV. Solid State will be the new norm by then. Which means lower weight, faster charging and higher range....The question will be do they go all out on the power front or go a different direction??
Generating revenue for the manufacturer is the core reason for hyper cars. After that they are just a trading commodity. They hold no interest for me these days. I'd suggest that Porsche 917 along with GT40 were the first hypercars.
Confused by the thumbnail. Andrew looks like he has long hair, a skullet to be precise, and is wearing something a bit 70's sci-fi. It's an obscure reference but I'm thinking Karlheinz Stockhausen. It may be an optical illusion but I think he should lean into it, leave Jean Reno behind.
These cars are Veblen Goods. You buy them to demonstrate you can buy them. Their spec, though somewhat important, is secondary. So there's little be gained by over-rationalizing what people desire. The point of owning the 'top' Ferrari is to be the person who owns a 'top' Ferrari. That's not to say that within he realm of hyper-rich people there isn't some discretion. There's a reason why people like King Hussein of Jordan loved karts, and other very wealthy poeple, but perception means everything in the hyper-car game. if people reallyyyyy cared about the driving experience, running a karting media outlet would be very profitable (hint: it isn't :) ) That's not to say however there isn't a tipping point. I think the F80's sound, or lack thereof, and lack of spectacle, and lack of general wider cultural appeal, will have an effect. Sure they have sold them all, fine, but something is changing out there. It's not a car an owner will benefit from showing off as much as the laferrari or previous Ferraris.
There’s only so much power that can be used on the road, the rest is just wasted on bragging rights. Driver engagement is what makes taking a drive a joy, hypercars today fall on their faces in this regard. I’d rather drive an MX-5 around town than any supercar/hypercar.
The "problem" with hypercars is actually, imo, not hypercars persay, but actually normal cars being so dam good. Back in the day, as Andrew alludes, if you bought a ferrari dino or whatever, it was night and day faster than anything, night and day better looking, night and day more attention grabbing. But today, in 2024, lets be honest, a typical mid range family car (especially if an EV) is about as fast as one car go on the road, they tend to look pretty good too as wel. Back in the day, supercars were really difficult (often terribly so) to drive, but that made them an occasion, today, your nan could happily drive any of them to shops just fine, and that erodes their rason d'etre surely? Buyers of these cars, increasingly don't drive them, because they are too valuable, too fast, and because modern hypercar buyer are not actually drivers (few people are actually good enough to drive a modern hypercar anywhere near as fast as it can go...) so they are either investments or just ocasional straight line hero's raced twice a year up a dead straight runway, and here (see the success of carwow drag vids for example) all that matters is raw speed. If you turn up in a 1000bhp car, and someone turns up in a 2000bhp car, you "loose" and the sort of people who buy these cars for their image don't like loosing.....
It's saturation to sum it up simply. Growing up a Ferrari, Bugatti or Lambo etc. was an insane, rare, special, and beautiful thing. Now, there are more limited $1 million+ hypercars (most awful looking) being bought by the same 500 people than there are affordable manual sports/enthusiasts cars. I love cars but feel completely numb to anything with 1,500hp that can't get out of a driveway or over a speed hump. 🥱
Too many so called collectors cars are being sold as rarities from day one. 399 McLaren T1's to be built. A rare car like a Ferrari 250, where only 36 were made and where most survived, 33??, is more like it. How about a Merc 300 SLR Uhlenhaut Coupe. 2 built and survive. Current crop of super cars being built for a collectors market is an inaccurate description.
The last great Ferrari was the Daytona SP3. With the past glut of 1000bhp cars, enthusiasts are more excited about a manual S/T or GT3 now. The F80 is a car for Ferrari collectors. Might be a good idea to put a photo of the car(s) you are talking about on main topics up on your tv screen?
The amount of times this has been mentioned to use the huge screen right next to them...thanks for raising this again 👍
Yes this
The only hypercar that in my opinion breaks "new ground" and that interests me is the Bugatti Toubillion because it has the V16 N/A engine
And GMA T50
@@r129r16pfl And the Valkyrie and the Merc with the F1 engine... it seems it is still possible to do exciting hypers when combining art and science.
@@SuperTurboOneYeah, even with a few amount of cars
u sound like a kid......LOL a hyper VW
@@josephjewellers Now u dound even more childish lmao🤣🤣🤣
Current hypercars aren’t chasing performance, or power, or speed. They’re chasing money. And in that sense, they’re being perfectly successful.
We could say the same about Marvel films. They’re not trying to win Oscars, they’re trying to make money…
they are certainly chasing performance.. the f80 and w1 have insane laptimes on all test tracks.
I do agree with what they're saying. IF Ferrari launched a car, basic interior, but gorgeous to look at and it weighed around 1000KG, 6 speed manual, 700 horsepower N/A V12... ahem like a GMA T.50... they could make a line up of cars for motoring purists, call it the "Purista" line and they would sell like hot cakes.
They wouldn't sell any of them. Alpine, Lotus, TVR etc.
thats what the icona series should've been for
egulations. GMA is exempt because they hardly produce any models. SP3 is the last of the last
T50 is the hypercar, that is done right!
Problem is its looks are completely undone by its little brother the T33. that cars existence is a constant reminder how badly they got the T50's visual design. Do you like the t50 or t33's looks more??
@@CITRUS-- t33 is prettier but the t50 looks insane, it's not ugly by any means!
Anything that weighs a little more that a 1st gen Miata and has a V12 is probably going to be a lot of fun to drive regardless of body lines. 😂
T.50 is more beautiful and timeless than any other hypercar, except for T.33 which is simply a masterclass for the ages. But I can’t imagine T50 owners being too upset!
@@CITRUS-- both looks totally crap
Hypercar owners are just investors now. They don’t drive. So what difference to them how bad it is as long as it appreciates. Manufacturers have lost the ball chasing maximum profits at the expense of passion. Look at the ridiculous amount of customization and billing.
I could not of put it better than you!
God bless your words mate. You described it
Yes. Speculative is all it is.
Some of them do, but it's a minority. The rest of it is just, well let's be real, companies aren't just interested in selling to enthusiasts. They want the money and value.
This, 100%
The restomod market clearly shows us what car enthusiasts want in their cars. The Ferrari F80 is everything those cars aren't, except being incredibly expensive.
it shows us what a specific niche market wants, plenty of enthusiasts want other things and would never consider a restomod
My reaction to the W1 is a bit like the reaction Lister has to Rimmers Risk story in Red Dwarf, "I'm in a state of non-grippedness, I am completely smegging ungripped"
There are some problems with these hypercars; Valkyrie and t.50. Valkyrie breaks all the rules and goes extreme with a form factor and experience like nothing else. T.50 reincarnates the F1 and offers a focused, engaging road car experience. The other offerings just feel like series production cars turned up to 11 and just a bit.... samey. Koenigsegg are an oddball on the sidelines, just doing their own thing, which is cool, but AMG, Ferrari, and McLaren just look a bit boring.
To add another problem; the tourbillon has gone absolutely mad with a v16, and I love it.
Maybe invite a hypercar buyer to the podcast to get their thoughts?
I think the variance in hypercar buyers is enough that speaking to one owner won't be very representative. I don't think the statistics needed to get an understanding of the hypercar market are ever going to be available publicly, so all we have is speculation
What thought? It's an investment. That's literally it.
Regarding the Maserati speed limit alert, one of the EU requirements is:
Ease of Override: Drivers must have the ability to override the ISA system temporarily, like by pressing harder on the accelerator, to maintain control in situations where it’s necessary to exceed the speed limit briefly (e.g., overtaking).
It's not clear if this "override" also applies to the alert itself.
Government wants lane assist ---> cars must have electronic steering to do it --------> electronic systems can be hacked ---------> cars must have anti hacking tech --------> cost of cars increase for new ones ------------> cost to repair cars increase ----------> insurance premiums go up. Net result customer pays for something they didn't ask for and don't want and in many cases will try to turn off.
Yep 100%. Gov regulations are designed to destroy driving, and they seem to be succeeding
Even though I may not have asked for it, I love all the tech in my car (and bike). Keep it switched on always 👌 👍
For me, the Veyron was the end of the road. Once we reached 1000 HP we should have said "right boys, enough of this, what else is there ?". Honestly who cares that your hypercar now has 1200 or 1500 or 2000 hp? Is it really that much better? Does it really make any difference ? It's like comparing 1 million light years with 2 million light years. From a practical view it's completely irrelevant.
Agree with you... this is the reason why the Pagani Utopia and GM T50 are getting such good responses for making manual V12's in today's era and the "new" hypercars with their tech are not.
Yeah because no one tunes their car to +1000 hp. What people do with their money has no obligation to makes sense to you.
@@MuppetsSh0w sure mate .
The Porsche 959/Ferrari 288 GTO were the first hypercars that I think of.
I would say Supercars, but yeah
The 288 GTO started production in 1984 and ended in 1987. The production of the 959 started in 1987. I think it's fair to say the Ferrari 288GTO was the first one on its own.
288 GTO is the firsf
Increasingly, I just don’t care. The majority of enthusiasts will never see one of these in the flesh, with TH-cam and a “Journo" going sideways on a track somewhere in Spain being the closest we’ll ever get.
These cars are built for collectors (or worse, investors) and will never be driven and dynamically enjoyed.
The premium manufactures will keep making them as the low volume and high price keeps them both legal and profitable.
As you say, EV just doesn’t do it, and neither does sub-premium builders. Nobody who got rich by being smart is going to sink money into a Lotus or similar.
Give me 200 bhp and a sub ton kerb weight any day!
hypcars, like hyper watches went from rarely seen ever, to you see all the time... online.
35:00 Didn't GMA just do that with the T.50?
We have got to the stage where we are all like pilots doing pre flight checks; turning off all the driving aids. We now need a new kind of car, not quite Restomod. You mentioned something similar Dan in the first live Podcast; we need modern classics remanufactured with components changed and infotainment updated to cost near their original price. Recycling at its best. You saw it here first.
About the GranTurismo Trofeo - ask Harry Metcalfe, he just reviewed it!
It is not that the power is too much, it is that nobody wants downsizing, turbos and batteryelectric. Especially the latter and heavy weight. When you are driving you are never punching it from zero really. And if you are, without launch when it is more involving. Saying that cars are too fast is putting sheep on a wolf. It is all the emission stuff, electric stuff, driving ””aids”” aka dangerous annoyances and the heavy weight.
My wife has a Grecale trofeo with same infotainment. You can turn all that stuff off and it saves to your driver profile, it’s just not that clear in the menu. I buy a lot of new cars, what I tend to do is go to dealer when car lands, I’ll watch some online videos, then spend some time setting it all up, then come back later that day or next to do the handover. And re electrified hypercars, who really cares other than existing owners stuck on the merrygoround
*Ego, bragging rights, one up manship, investments and don't know what else to do with my money* 😂😂
A new hyper Car needs to get through Qualifying. Q1 - Does it look good, if yes go to Q2. Q2 - Is the interior good no haptic controls, if yes go to Q3. Q3-Does it Ride, Sound, Accelerate and Stop like a hyper Car, if yes go to podium short list of which two or three to buy. Problem with Valkyrie is the engine problems not yet solved, the T50 doesn't have the looks, F80 looks, W1 looks. How many cars would get qualifying ?
20:02 Motivation? It’s an appreciating asset and like you said, if they don’t buy this one they don’t get the next.
Carbon tub, less than 1000kg & 600bhp 💥 that’s what people want..
Nah. 750kg and 400hp.
It is a common feeling on many podcasts, the disinterest in newer cars and the lack of "attachment". Not sure how the industry can fix that.
Its not because of industry. Its because of the new cars, and the regulations which is ruining cars and the industry.
Yep peak car was somewhere sub 2008. Podcasts have been talking about this for 10 years or so.
With regard to the bings and bongs and Andrew’s analogy of getting into your car early on a wet Monday morning to be confronted with all that SH**.
If all cars in the future do the binging and bonging and all that stuff, I may have to just not bother, lest I find myself having a Michael Douglas in Falling Down episode….
Mclaren and Ferrari should take notes from Koenigsegg, Gordon Murray, and Pagani on how to develop a modern and exciting hypercar.
they cant tho. all those brands have tiny production numbers and are exempt from most regulations. Ferraris sells thousands of cars a year and has much stricter regulations
Guys, firstly, always good banter. I can see you've got proper mics set up, though the volume is rather low. Perhaps some EQ tweaking?
It’s a shame EuroNCAP don’t take into account the ‘distractions’, forget about warnings, how about changing the temperature. They should also think about the mass of the car, the energy involved in two 3 tonne EV behemoths colliding at 70mph don’t bear thinking about!
Hi Stuart totally agree Tuthill GT 1 ticks all the boxes in my opinion
Dad’s new BMW X1 does the same with the speed limit display, but does stop blinking after a period of time. Admittedly I didn’t spend much time trying to see if I could turn it off in my short journey the other day, atleast he doesn’t have a head up display
I don't know where I've read it. But I think no other sentence encapsulate better what's happening with hypercars as the following one: " Hypercars are a problem already solved"
Ferrari has gone to the dogs, the styling is terrible, and they are too expensive. I say this as a Ferrari owner, I am not interested in anything currently on sale. Gordon Murray has the right idea.
He does ,back to basics
They should all be following the Alpine A110 approach
It’s the new car company’s too. Can any small manufacturer make anything other than a ridiculously expensive and extreme hyper car? How about an M5 competitor? A wagon?
For me the T50 is the most important Hypercar since the F1, lightweight , manual and V12 revving to like 11,000RPM.
Does anyone like paddleshift as opposed to manual?I drove manuals for thirty years and cannot wait to see the back of them. The argument that you get a far better track time with manual car is untrue as well. I can understand that people like them and enjoy driving them. Not my cup of tea though.
Maclaren F1! ❤.
I can imagine the sentiment about the f80 will change when we start seeing them in the wild and possibly in a different color. I think it will actually look better in a different color. Black or silver. Or even with a mild livery.
But also the problem is they released the Sp3 not long ago and seems to be stepping on their own toes.
So many valid points...After watching this I will be staying with my Skoda Octavia, isn't worth trading it in for a 1+ million pound hyper car
Podcast always 💯 awesome!!! 👍😊👊💥
Andrew, the "performance envelope" is not an issue. The "you know" is a bit 😉 (don't shoot, I love the podcast!)
The Nilu 27, Utopia and T50 are definitely on the other end of the scale which is necessary for balance, however if you can get a battery, ERS or motor to get 1 more ps the hypercar manufacturers will eek it out without exception!
I do like the way the F80 looks
The only way forward is backwards
6 speed Manual
Mid engine
Rear wheel drive
Naturally aspirated V12
2,000 to 3,000 lbs or 900.0 to 1,360.0 kgs curb weight
@@benjaminwiner6220 GMA T50
Yes, they are off the list if they don't buy it. You couldn't get a SP3 if you had a SP1 or 2 and got rid of it. So yes, there's a massive game being played here.
For the hyper car customer it’s also about the club, the exclusivity of having something others don’t. It’s less about the driving and performance, as a lot won’t really get driven, and certainly not to the point that tests the capability of the modern hyper car.
Also, at this financial wealth bracket, it’s about finding different & smart places/markets to put your wealth. Problems we don’t understand. They are not depositing money in their bank accounts via a mobile app!!…like the regular person, not when you are dealing with 7-8-9 digit figures.
I very much enjoy going 0 to 60 in 2 seconds, as long as electric motors are managing the traction control
It's exactly what you guys said, the F80 and W1 break no new ground and are incredibly uninteresting because of it. For the ridiculous cost that they are, they should have both been as nuts as the Valkyrie or RB17. Why wasn't the F80 literally a 499P for the road!? It's ridiculous how I'm more excited by the new GT3..................................😮
Gents, re the Maserati. Sir Harry Metcalf found the way to delete the bongs and bings and only had to do it once, they never came on again!
Because you two are interesting, this was interesting. But 'Hyper-cars' now aren't very interning ( apart maybe for their engineering I guess ). Some people might say that are interesting / exciting to drive, but if that is the case, why do their owners drive them so little?
Agree entirely with you about the madness of screens. I personally think appalling visibility out of newer cars is dangerous. I have owned classics - MK2 Jag / Triumph 2000 etc - which didn't have or need wing mirrors. All round visibility was that good.
Harry Metcalfe managed to turn the speed warning off in the Maserati. Maybe speak to him?
Gents, you should give yourself more credit here. The way a hypercar is received by the press has a lot of influence on the status of a given car in the publics eye and this translates into long term value. These cars are a status symbol more than anything else, so even if they won't be driven at all it still matters a lot how they drive, how they look and what ppl of your profession think about them.
Sure the F80 sold out, but will it have the status of a Enzo or even F50 after 10-20 years? I doubt it. So it's long term value is far from guaranteed IMHO
I can't see why someone would want a W1 or F80 over a Jesko, which has been for sale since 2021.
Personal preference, but I think the 'egg trumps them both on looks and the difference in performance isn't anything that can be measured outside of an empty race track... Which 90% of them will probably never see.
If it is a great track time you are after a secondhand radical for 35k will outperform most hypercars for a fraction of the cost. Hyper car I would take the Aston Valkyrie or The Mercedes Amg one. Classic car The 300Sl Gullwing. Classic racer the AC Cobra thanks. Supercar a 720s Maclaren. A friend bought one of those for 160k in 2020. About double your loaded new BMW or Audi large Suv. 720s a great buy. As has been pointed out on here I cannot a afford a hypercar!
If the speed limit warning light blinking was so infuriating perhaps just not speed? Pretty easy really 😉 😆
That was an excellent podcast. I draw the conclusion Hypercars have driven up a cul de sac. Having said that, I suspect buyers are attracted because they can afford them when most cannot, and that is a personal endorsement of their achievements. Maybe they are like expensive watches having an appeal through their exaggerated complication. Beyond that they seem pointless. Re. the Maser Harry Metcalfe found a way to silence the hateful noises which then did not return by default. That’s my take from his weekly video. Happy hunting Dan.
Turns out, the enjoyment of speed has limits and nuance. More is not always better.
Please, put timestamps in description or pinned comment.
Guys, the Trofeo allows you to turn off the nanny crap once and it doesn't turn on again even after you've turned off the car.
Far be it from me to blow smoke up the exhaust pipes of credible motoring journalists like yourselves, but hypercars are not aimed at you or your loyal and very well informed Ti audience. They once were, of course, because magazines like Car, Autocar and Evo were the only way hypercar makers could reach and impress their wealthy target market. Today, thanks to TH-cam (sorry), your roost is ruled by an army of self-appointed experts with no real experience or understanding of what makes a good car. Even the most extravagant car buyers seem to have lost their appetite for analysis, in favour of hyperbolic presentation and bigger numbers.
Not building them for customers anymore. Just for headlines. There's always a bunch of customers where money is no object. Thats why they build them.
Have seriously hard-ass track-modded NC MX5 as daily driver… Flog it ALL the time… 💯 having more fun that a $5M 1,000 HP car!!! 👍🤣👊💥
Reasons W1 and F80 are not that exciting is that we already have a current generation "holy trinity" on the market. That is AMG One, Valkyrie and GM T.50, these 3 have achieved whatever was there to achieve in a hypercar world. Valkyrie ultimate track car, T.50 ultimate analog car and AMG One with literal F1 tech in it. How you can beat this? By going hybrid with 1200HP? I don't think so, if you want more HP you go with Koenigsegg or Bugatti.
100%
Hypercars and the law of diminishing excitement.
F40 to F50 was kind of a downgrade, but nowadays it's considered as a better drivers car so..
@@tomba33 Somehow everyone who drives an F50 absolutley love it!
F50 is manual rwd ~3,100.0 lbs/1,405.0 kgs mid engined NA V12
It also is curvaceous… whereas the f40 is squared off and has forced induction V8.. though the european specs is a fair bit lighter at 2,700.0 lbs/1,224.0 kgs
So what?
F50 has F1 block and sounds glorious
the big missing piece from the discussion here is that Porsche, Ferrari, Mclaren and to some extent Aston produce enough cars a year so that they are caught up in EU legislation that the tiny manufacturers like Pagani, GMA, Zenvo etc are not. Those tiny manufacturers do not have to adhere to the current regulations around emissions in the same way as the bigger manufacturers do. I am sure if Ferrari were allowed, they would make a v12 hypercar, but that is not possible. So the next best thing is to link their racing to the car in elicit some kind of emotion. Additionally, the comment that what the "TI" bubble believe the market wants is irrelevant because the rich dont care how they spend their money is not true at all. The way to prove my point is to look at the used prices of all these hypercars. The same rich people are buying the same cars, but once in the used market, they are buying the cars they actually want rather than just buying something thats the newest. Case in point, look at the used values of Zonda's vs Huaryas. What I am trying to say is that just because sells out when it is new, doesnt mean that that is what the market actually wants. Especially in the world of Ferrari which we all know most of the buying is done speculatively.
Its like you say; we are not the correct audience to comment on the new hyper/super/sports car, and as long as they are sold before they even are produced, we are clearly talking to a wall……
I believe that this increasing bemoaning which is happening with the current car enthusiast generation is as a result of the cars outgrowing said generation too fast. If we liken car enthusiasts to gamers it is like Sony releasing the PlayStation 8 with pricing adjusted for future inflation.
performance is not the main game now, just showing off wealth through opulence and limited number releases...
If you don’t have the money to buy a hypercar, you may not get why they exist. Also, it's a technology showcase for manufacturers, a technology that trickles down years later to sport cars.
Almost sounds like the people that decide on these laws don't drive themselves
Hypercar game is just awful right now, W1 , F80 this are not ture new haypercars.
For me new Holly Trinity are Rimac Nevera R, Koenigsegg Jesko Absolut, GM T.50 😊❤
Great podcast episode
EV Tesla Model S. 2019 24k. If you really want one!
When you collect stuff, you want the full set. Honestly it’s as simple as that. You don’t have issues 1>100 of something and then miss out issue 22 because it wasn’t brilliant. You’re over analysing it…
No one actually drives these cars to their limits!
Lets be honest, modern supercars / hyper cars are all tyre limited and have been for at least 15 years (which is of course why back in the day the P1, LaLa and 918 all lapped within tenths of each other because they were all on the same tyre...) In fact, we are now at the point where even "Normal" cars are now tyre limited, ie a modern M3, or something like a civic Type R etc
Personally i drive a car with tiny 195 section tyres because THIS is where the fun an ammusement on our roads actually is......
Does it even matter if 99,99999 of us with complete certainty won't ever own one? 🤔 I kind of like what they are even if they aren't 100% my cup of tea. Am more picky about my own hot hatch than any of the hypercars 😉
Idk but when a sedan in todays world can come off the factory with more than 600 hp, what could you expect from a hypercar, to have 1000 kg and 700 hp?
Hyper EV’s will never sell in big numbers irrelevant of how fast they are. Look at very expensive watches and you can see where the money is spent on an automatic watch with the engineering in it, the skill to make it. You could never sell a quartz watch for £100k because it’s got nothing in it that a £10 watch has.
The identity of @lamborghiniks is well known. Lots of high end cars such as Lamborghini Veneno but no Ferraris.
I don't usually comment.... but why no mention of the valkyrie. It's definitely a hyper car with a v12 that belongs on magazine poster.
Also you talk about where combustion engines should go and I'd argue it should be following the mechanical watch style of product.
In that market the mechanical watch is inferior in alot of ways. Ways in which it is superior is longevity and passion. These companies should be making engines that are interesting in their own right. A straight 5 with a supercharger, 2.2 liter 12 cylinders etc... and stop just grabbing easy power by slapping a turbo on it. Kids did that with cheap Japanese products in the 90s (mk4 supra etc...)
And in my opinion this goes for hybrid and electrifyed cars. Example would be doing a i8 style car with a small electric motor and hybusa motor bike engine in it.
Anyways rant over hahha
What you're failing to recognise is that Ferrari have just invested Hundreds of Millions in a Brand new state of the art BEV production facility at Maranello. Why would they do that if the future for them as they see it isn't BEV??? The next Ferrari Hypercar will most definitely be a BEV. Solid State will be the new norm by then. Which means lower weight, faster charging and higher range....The question will be do they go all out on the power front or go a different direction??
Generating revenue for the manufacturer is the core reason for hyper cars. After that they are just a trading commodity.
They hold no interest for me these days.
I'd suggest that Porsche 917 along with GT40 were the first hypercars.
The problem with reviews, is they produce nothing.
Confused by the thumbnail. Andrew looks like he has long hair, a skullet to be precise, and is wearing something a bit 70's sci-fi. It's an obscure reference but I'm thinking Karlheinz Stockhausen. It may be an optical illusion but I think he should lean into it, leave Jean Reno behind.
The obsession with Porche. Buy a secondhand one.GT3 3 or 4 years old is better value than the new model. Overpriced and not worth it.
Just fettle a 996 or 997 manual, anything past that just is silly!!
S1 Exige ........
These cars are Veblen Goods. You buy them to demonstrate you can buy them. Their spec, though somewhat important, is secondary. So there's little be gained by over-rationalizing what people desire. The point of owning the 'top' Ferrari is to be the person who owns a 'top' Ferrari. That's not to say that within he realm of hyper-rich people there isn't some discretion. There's a reason why people like King Hussein of Jordan loved karts, and other very wealthy poeple, but perception means everything in the hyper-car game. if people reallyyyyy cared about the driving experience, running a karting media outlet would be very profitable (hint: it isn't :) )
That's not to say however there isn't a tipping point. I think the F80's sound, or lack thereof, and lack of spectacle, and lack of general wider cultural appeal, will have an effect. Sure they have sold them all, fine, but something is changing out there. It's not a car an owner will benefit from showing off as much as the laferrari or previous Ferraris.
That's a long way of saying "I don't like the way they look"
There’s only so much power that can be used on the road, the rest is just wasted on bragging rights. Driver engagement is what makes taking a drive a joy, hypercars today fall on their faces in this regard. I’d rather drive an MX-5 around town than any supercar/hypercar.
Oh cool! You guys are offering a 15% discount on the subscription price that you just totally made up yourselves anyways?
The "problem" with hypercars is actually, imo, not hypercars persay, but actually normal cars being so dam good. Back in the day, as Andrew alludes, if you bought a ferrari dino or whatever, it was night and day faster than anything, night and day better looking, night and day more attention grabbing. But today, in 2024, lets be honest, a typical mid range family car (especially if an EV) is about as fast as one car go on the road, they tend to look pretty good too as wel. Back in the day, supercars were really difficult (often terribly so) to drive, but that made them an occasion, today, your nan could happily drive any of them to shops just fine, and that erodes their rason d'etre surely? Buyers of these cars, increasingly don't drive them, because they are too valuable, too fast, and because modern hypercar buyer are not actually drivers (few people are actually good enough to drive a modern hypercar anywhere near as fast as it can go...) so they are either investments or just ocasional straight line hero's raced twice a year up a dead straight runway, and here (see the success of carwow drag vids for example) all that matters is raw speed. If you turn up in a 1000bhp car, and someone turns up in a 2000bhp car, you "loose" and the sort of people who buy these cars for their image don't like loosing.....
Being offered a F80 by Ferrari is like getting a Knigthood. No one will turn it down, regardless of wether or not they like the car.
The F80 is the culmination of how ridiculous Ferrari has become.
I think the F80 owners will end up selling them 2 years later with less than 80 miles on hence the name .😂😂
It's saturation to sum it up simply. Growing up a Ferrari, Bugatti or Lambo etc. was an insane, rare, special, and beautiful thing. Now, there are more limited $1 million+ hypercars (most awful looking) being bought by the same 500 people than there are affordable manual sports/enthusiasts cars. I love cars but feel completely numb to anything with 1,500hp that can't get out of a driveway or over a speed hump. 🥱
These hypercars are for rich investors to brag about. You know the old saying, “whoever dies with the most toys wins.” Pure ego purchases.
Too many so called collectors cars are being sold as rarities from day one. 399 McLaren T1's to be built. A rare car like a Ferrari 250, where only 36 were made and where most survived, 33??, is more like it. How about a Merc 300 SLR Uhlenhaut Coupe. 2 built and survive. Current crop of super cars being built for a collectors market is an inaccurate description.