I think every bike change in any given area to address an issue (knee pain, shoulder pain etc) should also come with the caveat, "you should also be doing lots of mobility work, stretching and strengthening of those areas". I have found major improvements from bike setup changes, but mostly from improving my bodies range of motion and ability to move the way it should. No amount of bike setup is going to solve a problem where you simply cant use your muscles the way they want to be used. Ive actually held off going for a pro bike fit until I feel like the problems on my end, my body, have mostly been resolved. No point going in and paying £300 for a fit, when the problem is my joints.
I couldn't agree more. A good bike fitting with a certified fitter will be 50% sorting out your bike and 50% identifying the organic issues that need rectifying. I would suggest looking at both in parallel, otherwise you may have a positional issue that is causing postural ones. Its a bit catch 22.
really good explanation on "opening hip" and negatives in this video. I have seen many, this was the best! 170cm here, from 172,5mm switched to 165mm crank and I love it since
Been on 165mm for 3 years and don’t look back. (I’m 5ft,10 / 180cm) Besides the bike fit aspect it made it easier for me to up cadence after knee surgery. The 172mm standard was developed in an age with completely different, much heavier gearing. If you watch 70s race vids, they had like half the cadence going up the climbs😅
I remember having once a bike fit by so call experts ! Started having knees pain ! Then fit myself by tries and errors and soon realised that when you understand the basic you're the expert ! BTW i'm 70,with 87.5 cms inseam, always on the drops ,175mm crank of course !
179cm tall and I ride a 165mm crank. Saddle is -3 degrees at the nose due to severely rotated pelvis (sway back). The shorted crank was great along with a more forward saddle position, both opened up the hip angle and stopped impingement. Also allowed me to get lower on the front end. Narrower bars. Measure the distance between your acromion process (the bony points on your shoulders) and use that as a guide for bar width. My measurement is 31cm (almost a deformity at my height) and I ride 34cm bars (only because I can't find a nice looking 32cm bar). Stopped all neck and shoulder pain straight away. I'd suggest acromion width -2cm being the ideal bar width. Custom Sidas insoles solved a lot of issues for me as I have stupidly thin feet (274mm x 91mm) and no shoes actually closed tight enough before the sides touched. Once I had the insoles done it stopped all knee pain and gave me a level platform to push on and get more power down. Strength/mobility work. Virtually free and will make the most difference. In lockdown I was determined to get into yoga. After a few months of it I was able to drop 40mm and lengthen 30mm on the front end and be more comfy as well as faster (aero).
Looks like you have benefitted from all of the usual suspects us fitters come across. So glad you have got all this sorted out and can enjoy your cycling.
Yep, short legs long torso here and own and comfortably ride a small, medium, and large bike frames and they all fit fine for me. The small for more endurance style riding, and can get super long and low aero position on the larger frame.
I don't quite agree with the bar width opinion. I have around 40cm shoulder width and use a 36cm wide handlebar with slightly inward shifters and never rode more ergonomically! I'm also a huge fan of using 165mm cranks (180cm with 85cm inseam) and am blown away about pedalling efficiency and less stress in the hip area. Maybe thinking about switching to even shorter cranks.
Im so glad you are comfortable with your set up. Everyone is different and the fact you like a bar narrower than your acromiums may mean you have a natural roundness to your posture etc. If its working for you, awesome.
Ride medium 54 bikes usually with 172 cranks but a wahoo kickr bike allowed me to experiment with different lengths . Tried 165 on zwift and felt great so converted to them on my 2 road bikes . Knees and hips have arthritis sadly . Works for me
Found 170mm to be the sweet spot at 178cm. Did not enjoy riding 165mm at all as I already have a high natural cadence of 90-95rpm. Also, when sprinting or closing a gap, the difference in leverage was noticeable for short bursts.
I have 30 years experience and took great interest in the saddle , body position, power delivery . I have watched every expert on youtube covering the issue and while some of them have really good advice none mentioned the most evident situation that happens when one rider goes low on aero position, no saddle will support your seat bones at the point, you are riding on the perineum just like TT riders do, when riding more upright the rider has way better support on the seat bones, seats a little back on the saddle and uses more muscle, bigger muscle to rotate the crank, plus could pull onto the bars for more support and leverage . When fully rotated on the aero position what supports the upper body is the Perineum and not the seat bones, when riding on the drops or with the arms bent and want to stay low at the front the only way to do it is with high cadence and high speed , the moving force will lift the body enough to compensate for the gravity pulling down so my advice is to understand how these 2 positions work and get a saddle that can offer both, a good seat bones support and good perineum support, learn how to use both and ride with purpose, donțt pay anyone that tells you there is ONE POSITION FOR ALL THE TIME and must pay $500 to find it . welcome your thoughts
Some good points here. I would say that there are now some saddles that allow Pubic Rami support in a TT position rather than the classic on the rivet perineum crusher but it is all very new.
Well presented thoughts on bike fitting. 👏👏👏 With so much emphasis on how the pelvis engages with the saddle, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Selle SMP saddles since their patented shape supposedly does a good job addressing this issue, at least for many people. I'd like to try 165mm cranks. If for no other reason, it seems to be the most talked about bike fitting area on TH-cam today! But for me, going from Ultegra 170mm to 165mm cranks would not only be expensive, but I would lose some hill climbing advantages. I already run the lowest gearing available on Ultegra...34-34. And even in that gear it is a grind getting up some of the steeper roads in my area. Shorter cranks, with their smaller lever arm and torque, would just exacerbate this situation. An option would be to go to a Shimano GRX crank set with its easier gearing. But that would come with increasing the Q factor of my cranks. I have already increased the Q factor on my bike because I'm using Assioma Duo Shi power meter pedals. Not sure I want an EVEN bigger Q factor. Also, using a GRX crank set with my Ultegra Di2 equipment is not recommended by Shimano, although I have read of folks "making it work." The best solution would for Shimano to offer wider gear ranges on their Ultegra equipment that still work with their Di2 electronic shifters. Maybe a 36 in the rear and a 32 in the front would work and offer the hill climbing advantages to offset the reduced torque of shorter cranks. COMPLICATIONS! COMPLICATIONS EVERYWHERE! 😂😂😂
Thanks for your comments. The SMP saddle is very marmite but there are definitely some good discussion around it. I would say unless you are in an aggressive position or have hip issues then stick with the cranks you have. Hill climbing out of the saddle is the scenario where a longer crank is beneficial.
@ Thanks for replying! That's very much appreciated. So true about SMP saddles! On the negative side, some folks just can't get past the looks. 🤷 And if you like to move fore and aft on your saddle, the SMP is not for you. Then there are the folks for whom the saddle just doesn't feel good, even after spending time getting the tilt of the saddle in its best possible position. For others, the SMP design is a complete game changer in comfort. My wife is one of those. After trying more saddles on her bike then I've had hot dinners in the past 10 years, I finally installed an SMP on her bike. I experimented with the amount of tilt (settled on the front end tilted down 2.5°). Result...the most comfortable seat she has ever used! 🙌🙌🙌 We humans come in so many flavors. It's great that we have choice...at least in bike saddles! 😊
I have 165 cranks used them for years I probably should be on even shorter cranks at just under 5,7 with a 30inch inseam. XS giant tcr has quite a low BB so could do with smaller cranks/ it also helps with toe overlap. Its any exspnive upgrade though if you have bought an off the shelf bike.
@ interesting. I’m 193cm and went to 170mm for clearance, but on muddy courses I’m not sure there is a benefit (in fact I wonder if it’s harder?). I’m 175 on everything else 🤷♂️
Everybody on YT talks about shorter cranks on the flats but no one seems to mention what happens when you start climbing and how they affect your leverage.
@@jeffhammond8752 if you’re only dropping one size on the cranks it’s minimal and if it’s actually a better fit you’ll more than likely make up for it in efficiency. I personally haven’t noticed any loss of performance in any area of my cycling but have absolutely noticed an increase in pedal efficiency and less fatigue in my legs since going to 165.
Not sure I've ever noticed any change in cadence when moving to 165mm cranks, your circle is smaller, so your leg is moving a fraction slower but that's about it. As you say, you adjust gears to suit whatever cadence you prefer anyway.
Yeah just keep spending spending spending , giving , giving , giving to the Big Cycling Companies...Just ride your bicycle and take no notice of all this Fashion Bullshit
I have to say as long as you are in comfort and don't risk injury that is also my philosophy. None of us actually "need" a bike that costs more than around £400. Leisure pursuits are emotional purchases rather than rational.
We were going thru this back in the late 70's! Crank length is commensurate with leg length. It's STRICTLY based on rider physiology.
Would like to hear more about what is considered short, normal and long cranks relative to leg length etc.
Great idea!
I think every bike change in any given area to address an issue (knee pain, shoulder pain etc) should also come with the caveat, "you should also be doing lots of mobility work, stretching and strengthening of those areas". I have found major improvements from bike setup changes, but mostly from improving my bodies range of motion and ability to move the way it should. No amount of bike setup is going to solve a problem where you simply cant use your muscles the way they want to be used. Ive actually held off going for a pro bike fit until I feel like the problems on my end, my body, have mostly been resolved. No point going in and paying £300 for a fit, when the problem is my joints.
I couldn't agree more. A good bike fitting with a certified fitter will be 50% sorting out your bike and 50% identifying the organic issues that need rectifying. I would suggest looking at both in parallel, otherwise you may have a positional issue that is causing postural ones. Its a bit catch 22.
really good explanation on "opening hip" and negatives in this video. I have seen many, this was the best!
170cm here, from 172,5mm switched to 165mm crank and I love it since
It is funny how everyone assumes Pogi went to shorter cranks for efficiency. Maybe he had some pain or discomfort with longer ones before.
Been on 165mm for 3 years and don’t look back. (I’m 5ft,10 / 180cm) Besides the bike fit aspect it made it easier for me to up cadence after knee surgery. The 172mm standard was developed in an age with completely different, much heavier gearing. If you watch 70s race vids, they had like half the cadence going up the climbs😅
I remember having once a bike fit by so call experts ! Started having knees pain ! Then fit myself by tries and errors and soon realised that when you understand the basic you're the expert ! BTW i'm 70,with 87.5 cms inseam, always on the drops ,175mm crank of course !
Tried smaller cranks, and I just didn't like it ... didn't feel like cycling to me just spinning tiny little circles ...
Good & informative video😊 Besides pros & competitors: Who needs aggressive positions for several miles at a time?
179cm tall and I ride a 165mm crank. Saddle is -3 degrees at the nose due to severely rotated pelvis (sway back). The shorted crank was great along with a more forward saddle position, both opened up the hip angle and stopped impingement. Also allowed me to get lower on the front end.
Narrower bars. Measure the distance between your acromion process (the bony points on your shoulders) and use that as a guide for bar width. My measurement is 31cm (almost a deformity at my height) and I ride 34cm bars (only because I can't find a nice looking 32cm bar). Stopped all neck and shoulder pain straight away. I'd suggest acromion width -2cm being the ideal bar width.
Custom Sidas insoles solved a lot of issues for me as I have stupidly thin feet (274mm x 91mm) and no shoes actually closed tight enough before the sides touched. Once I had the insoles done it stopped all knee pain and gave me a level platform to push on and get more power down.
Strength/mobility work. Virtually free and will make the most difference. In lockdown I was determined to get into yoga. After a few months of it I was able to drop 40mm and lengthen 30mm on the front end and be more comfy as well as faster (aero).
Looks like you have benefitted from all of the usual suspects us fitters come across. So glad you have got all this sorted out and can enjoy your cycling.
Narrow bars improves your aero position and also keeps your diaphragm unblocked. It also helps rotate your hips more effectively.
Your inseam not Your height mather, and that is the basic knowledge BTW 😊!
170mm -> 160mm cadence naturally increased by about 7rpm knee pain went away. I’m 170cm 78cm inseam so probably the correct crank anyway
I’m about same size, went from 170 crank to 165, one of the best changes I’ve ever made on a bike.
Good and interesting video!
Yep, short legs long torso here and own and comfortably ride a small, medium, and large bike frames and they all fit fine for me. The small for more endurance style riding, and can get super long and low aero position on the larger frame.
Do you find the small has a low stack . Is your flexibility good ?
I don't quite agree with the bar width opinion. I have around 40cm shoulder width and use a 36cm wide handlebar with slightly inward shifters and never rode more ergonomically! I'm also a huge fan of using 165mm cranks (180cm with 85cm inseam) and am blown away about pedalling efficiency and less stress in the hip area. Maybe thinking about switching to even shorter cranks.
Im so glad you are comfortable with your set up. Everyone is different and the fact you like a bar narrower than your acromiums may mean you have a natural roundness to your posture etc. If its working for you, awesome.
Just out of curiosity, what's your saddle height? (From the center of the BB to the top middle part of the saddle)
That exactly sums up my own experience with 165mm cranks. Win/ win for my riding. Doing the change on a Campagnolo Record rig was $$$ though..
I switched to 165mm back in 2019, so much more comfort and way smoother pedalling, never looked back....
Ride medium 54 bikes usually with 172 cranks but a wahoo kickr bike allowed me to experiment with different lengths . Tried 165 on zwift and felt great so converted to them on my 2 road bikes . Knees and hips have arthritis sadly . Works for me
Lots of DIY bike fitters on here 🫣
Agreed. Unless they are certified the advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Obviously the cycling industry is running out of new ideas to upsell it’s consumers. First it was weight, then it was aero, now it’s looking like a 🤡
Is it the cycling ‘industry’ or is it bike fitters?
This could be a not too expensive change (even though I'm not going to do it).
tadej pogačar is 5’9 and using 165mm cranks. That’s NOT short for his height. It’s spot on.
Max crank length is 20% of your inseam
Found 170mm to be the sweet spot at 178cm.
Did not enjoy riding 165mm at all as I already have a high natural cadence of 90-95rpm. Also, when sprinting or closing a gap, the difference in leverage was noticeable for short bursts.
Why doesn’t anyone ever show power numbers between longer and shorter cranks?
They have and the difference was minimal.
I have 30 years experience and took great interest in the saddle , body position, power delivery . I have watched every expert on youtube covering the issue and while some of them have really good advice none mentioned the most evident situation that happens when one rider goes low on aero position, no saddle will support your seat bones at the point, you are riding on the perineum just like TT riders do, when riding more upright the rider has way better support on the seat bones, seats a little back on the saddle and uses more muscle, bigger muscle to rotate the crank, plus could pull onto the bars for more support and leverage . When fully rotated on the aero position what supports the upper body is the Perineum and not the seat bones, when riding on the drops or with the arms bent and want to stay low at the front the only way to do it is with high cadence and high speed , the moving force will lift the body enough to compensate for the gravity pulling down so my advice is to understand how these 2 positions work and get a saddle that can offer both, a good seat bones support and good perineum support, learn how to use both and ride with purpose, donțt pay anyone that tells you there is ONE POSITION FOR ALL THE TIME and must pay $500 to find it . welcome your thoughts
Some good points here. I would say that there are now some saddles that allow Pubic Rami support in a TT position rather than the classic on the rivet perineum crusher but it is all very new.
1.70 cm, 78cm de entrepiernas y 155mm de longitud de bielas. 🙌👏👍👍
Well presented thoughts on bike fitting. 👏👏👏 With so much emphasis on how the pelvis engages with the saddle, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Selle SMP saddles since their patented shape supposedly does a good job addressing this issue, at least for many people. I'd like to try 165mm cranks. If for no other reason, it seems to be the most talked about bike fitting area on TH-cam today! But for me, going from Ultegra 170mm to 165mm cranks would not only be expensive, but I would lose some hill climbing advantages. I already run the lowest gearing available on Ultegra...34-34. And even in that gear it is a grind getting up some of the steeper roads in my area. Shorter cranks, with their smaller lever arm and torque, would just exacerbate this situation. An option would be to go to a Shimano GRX crank set with its easier gearing. But that would come with increasing the Q factor of my cranks. I have already increased the Q factor on my bike because I'm using Assioma Duo Shi power meter pedals. Not sure I want an EVEN bigger Q factor. Also, using a GRX crank set with my Ultegra Di2 equipment is not recommended by Shimano, although I have read of folks "making it work." The best solution would for Shimano to offer wider gear ranges on their Ultegra equipment that still work with their Di2 electronic shifters. Maybe a 36 in the rear and a 32 in the front would work and offer the hill climbing advantages to offset the reduced torque of shorter cranks. COMPLICATIONS! COMPLICATIONS EVERYWHERE! 😂😂😂
Thanks for your comments. The SMP saddle is very marmite but there are definitely some good discussion around it.
I would say unless you are in an aggressive position or have hip issues then stick with the cranks you have. Hill climbing out of the saddle is the scenario where a longer crank is beneficial.
@ Thanks for replying! That's very much appreciated. So true about SMP saddles! On the negative side, some folks just can't get past the looks. 🤷 And if you like to move fore and aft on your saddle, the SMP is not for you. Then there are the folks for whom the saddle just doesn't feel good, even after spending time getting the tilt of the saddle in its best possible position. For others, the SMP design is a complete game changer in comfort. My wife is one of those. After trying more saddles on her bike then I've had hot dinners in the past 10 years, I finally installed an SMP on her bike. I experimented with the amount of tilt (settled on the front end tilted down 2.5°). Result...the most comfortable seat she has ever used! 🙌🙌🙌 We humans come in so many flavors. It's great that we have choice...at least in bike saddles! 😊
I have 165 cranks used them for years I probably should be on even shorter cranks at just under 5,7 with a 30inch inseam. XS giant tcr has quite a low BB so could do with smaller cranks/ it also helps with toe overlap. Its any exspnive upgrade though if you have bought an off the shelf bike.
At what point does leveraging power become an issue? Is it like undoing a nut? The longer the length the easier it is to transfer the torque through?
Question: do shorter cranks benefit disciplines like MTB and cyclocross? Especially when nice and muddy?
Yes this is a different use case and the benefits are usually down to higher cadences required to maintain traction and also ground clearance.
@ interesting. I’m 193cm and went to 170mm for clearance, but on muddy courses I’m not sure there is a benefit (in fact I wonder if it’s harder?). I’m 175 on everything else 🤷♂️
Everybody on YT talks about shorter cranks on the flats but no one seems to mention what happens when you start climbing and how they affect your leverage.
@@jeffhammond8752 if you’re only dropping one size on the cranks it’s minimal and if it’s actually a better fit you’ll more than likely make up for it in efficiency. I personally haven’t noticed any loss of performance in any area of my cycling but have absolutely noticed an increase in pedal efficiency and less fatigue in my legs since going to 165.
I can't tell any difference between 170mm to 175mm, got short legs, long torso.
When changing crank length should you change saddle height as well ?? 👍
potential depending on the use case. Seek the advice of a certified fitter
Yes, for a change from 172.5mm to 165mm raise saddle 7.5mm.
How does a shorter crank affect cadence? A rotation is a rotation, no?
πd - shorter crank = smaller radius/diameter. Therefore, feet are moving a smaller distance to accomplish the same 360° motion.
no
Does Lee Prescott have any links to his business?
I've put a link in the description now, here's his website www.veloatelier.co.uk
Pros have much stronger legs than me and I have a 33inch inseam. I'll stick to 175s.
I'll take the longer cranks, every single time. Short cranks decrease torque.
If you dont have problems dont bother.
David does have problems though. Look at the way he pedals.
Not sure about higher cadence unless you change the gear to a low one.
Not sure I've ever noticed any change in cadence when moving to 165mm cranks, your circle is smaller, so your leg is moving a fraction slower but that's about it. As you say, you adjust gears to suit whatever cadence you prefer anyway.
Yeah just keep spending spending spending , giving , giving , giving to the Big Cycling Companies...Just ride your bicycle and take no notice of all this Fashion Bullshit
I have to say as long as you are in comfort and don't risk injury that is also my philosophy. None of us actually "need" a bike that costs more than around £400. Leisure pursuits are emotional purchases rather than rational.
Yeah, problem is the industry knows so many people are gullible, and love to copy the latest fad of the pros.
First 🎉