Im in UK. I never wanted NATO to expand. I certainly didn't want Ukraine anywhere near joining the EU. Russia has had the same red lines for decades, entirely reasonable ones. Anybody who has listened to the leaked call from Nuland, talking about choosing a Ukrainian leader (with an 'attaboy call' from Biden for encouragement-isn't the language of US State dept and Nuland nauseating?) thats subservient to the US, surely knows Russian fears over NATO expansion and US missiles on their border are entirely justified. The constant talk of Poland being next and Putins desire to rebuild the Soviet Union is pure propaganda. Its depressing to see how much control US intelligence and State has over newsrooms across US.
That's just Russia being paranoid as usual. Do you really think that if Ukraine joined Nato, then what, Nato would launch Barbarossa 2 or something? Ukraine joining Nato (which wasn't going to happen) would be a defensive move to deter Russian aggression.
Absolutely correct. Far from the Ukriane conflict beginning February 23, 2022, the clear and persistent provocation of Russia by the West goes back to the begining of the 1990s. Britain's antipathy to Russia dates back to a much earlier age. The truth of the matter is that the West, and particularly the US, could have prevented this war very easily, had it wished to. But US hypocrisy and determination to maintain total geopolitical global control once again created the inevitability of yet another destructive and costly conflict.
it is not difficult with satellite and drone surveillance imagery to get a rough calculation of battlefield casualties... more difficult for deaths in the back lines and many other locations throughout central and western Ukraine that have been targeted. I have seen estimates of up to 350K killed... given that the conflict started with approx 600-700K troops, and the current conditions now when battalions and brigades are reduced to 50%-plus, it does not seem to be completely unreasonable.
One thing I'm catching onto is that Finkelstein frequently deals in anecdotes, about any topic it seems. The whole thing about his Ukrainian acquaintances in 'little Odessa by the sea' was ultimately anecdotal and ultimately worthless information.
Source for the 300'000 Ukranian dead? As far as I know 300'000 was the total of lossed (included the wounded) for both sides in May. I agree with the general argument made in the video, though
From news: “MOSCOW, April 12 (Reuters) - As many as 354,000 Russian and Ukrainian soldiers have been killed or injured in the Ukraine war which is grinding towards a protracted conflict that may last well beyond 2023, according to a trove of purported U.S. intelligence documents posted online.” Then adjust according to counter sources, as well as civilian deaths. But US government sources likely to underestimate Ukraine deaths, at least while it’s still drumming up support for more money to be spent there.
UN Geneva says as of this week: “More than 26,700 civilian casualties, including over 9,500 deaths, have been confirmed; the real number is certainly higher. Over 6 million people have fled to neighboring countries. Over 5 million have become internally displaced.”
@@gparsr Cuz it's impossible to audit that money. A lot of it is likely ending up in the pockets of defense contractors. Business as usual for American war profiteers. The military industrial complex is literally a racket for the defense industry to keep milking taxpayer money from citizens. If the US didn't have this happening. They could actually put that money into their own citizens like infrastructure or education. China has done this, that's why their cities look so futuristic.
@@gparsrwow 9500 civilians killed in like 20 months... that's a genocide Biden says.Meanwhile As of today Nov18 2023 13000 civilians killed by Isreal with US bombs in 5 weeks.Biden says No ceasefire and Isreal has the rigth to defend itself Wow 😢
People who say things like this haven't yet realised- and may never realise- that however deplorably untrustworthy the Russian government is... and it is deeply untrustworthy... our own governments in the west are far, far less trustworthy. Millions upon millions have died violently as a result of the US government's lies, my child. And the number of Ukrainian and Russian dead- whatever that number might actually be- is to be added to that same tally.
@@Jelperman wow, it’s almost as if all the fighting being done on the Ukrainian side is being done by Ukrainians and almost do the fighting done on the American side in Vietnam was done by the south Vietnamese Do you have any actual evidence of 60 000+ Ukrainian deaths?
@@jb76489 "Do you have any actual evidence of 60 000+ Ukrainian deaths?" He undoubtedly has evidence to support his figure of equal or greater veracity than the evidence you use to support your lower figure. But don't fret, it's in the nature of people like you to attempt to minimize the casualties of all wars; your brethren were all out during Iraq, Iraq 2, Afghanistan and Libya among other conflicts, I recall. Doing the same debased thing.
All superyacht owners know you sail better on blood.
The evil of this world who put a dollar sign on everything can never be saved.
I'm sure I recall Hitchens making that same joke about Chomsky for an introduction at one of his talks. A sober perspective here from Dr. Finkelstein.
Great discussion!
It is sad to see that nobody understood Norman Finkelstein's sense of humor
I understand Mr Finkelstein;s humor since i know him from media. Am following him since 2007/8.
Wow I could’ve run into you Mr. Finkelstein, walking around Coney Island… wow… I grew up around there 😅😅🙏
I wonder if anything changed now or if it's still the same. The US just approved a large portion of money to Ukraine with some to Israel
Im in UK. I never wanted NATO to expand. I certainly didn't want Ukraine anywhere near joining the EU. Russia has had the same red lines for decades, entirely reasonable ones. Anybody who has listened to the leaked call from Nuland, talking about choosing a Ukrainian leader (with an 'attaboy call' from Biden for encouragement-isn't the language of US State dept and Nuland nauseating?) thats subservient to the US, surely knows Russian fears over NATO expansion and US missiles on their border are entirely justified.
The constant talk of Poland being next and Putins desire to rebuild the Soviet Union is pure propaganda. Its depressing to see how much control US intelligence and State has over newsrooms across US.
That's just Russia being paranoid as usual. Do you really think that if Ukraine joined Nato, then what, Nato would launch Barbarossa 2 or something? Ukraine joining Nato (which wasn't going to happen) would be a defensive move to deter Russian aggression.
Absolutely correct. Far from the Ukriane conflict beginning February 23, 2022, the clear and persistent provocation of Russia by the West goes back to the begining of the 1990s. Britain's antipathy to Russia dates back to a much earlier age.
The truth of the matter is that the West, and particularly the US, could have prevented this war very easily, had it wished to. But US hypocrisy and determination to maintain total geopolitical global control once again created the inevitability of yet another destructive and costly conflict.
Ukraine was no where close to joining NATO. Really as long as Russia held Crimea it was never going to happen. This war was never about NATO.
@@robfl100 Well if I was putin I would be scared of nato coming close. It bombed yugoslavia and attacked afghanistan thousands of kilometers away.
@@jackied962Ukraine added joining NATO to their constitution before the war.
Oh my gracious, precious Lord
canst thou stop their Lust for War
Quoth the Raven ' ' Nevermore' '
it is not difficult with satellite and drone surveillance imagery to get a rough calculation of battlefield casualties... more difficult for deaths in the back lines and many other locations throughout central and western Ukraine that have been targeted. I have seen estimates of up to 350K killed... given that the conflict started with approx 600-700K troops, and the current conditions now when battalions and brigades are reduced to 50%-plus, it does not seem to be completely unreasonable.
Source: my ass
20 days in Mariupul
One thing I'm catching onto is that Finkelstein frequently deals in anecdotes, about any topic it seems. The whole thing about his Ukrainian acquaintances in 'little Odessa by the sea' was ultimately anecdotal and ultimately worthless information.
At around 5 minutes Nirm tells the story of the Ukraine war without mentioning Russia’s attack, which started it, is disqualifying.
Very accurate.
A lot of people saying 300k dead. If you were to look at the videos floating around it’s believable
I’ve been watching videos from frontlines all over the world for probably a decade now. None have shown as many bodies as the ones from Ukraine do
And yet none can actually prove it
@@jb76489 It can never be proven so you gotta go with a best guess unfortunately.
Source for the 300'000 Ukranian dead? As far as I know 300'000 was the total of lossed (included the wounded) for both sides in May. I agree with the general argument made in the video, though
I think it's more.
From news: “MOSCOW, April 12 (Reuters) - As many as 354,000 Russian and Ukrainian soldiers have been killed or injured in the Ukraine war which is grinding towards a protracted conflict that may last well beyond 2023, according to a trove of purported U.S. intelligence documents posted online.”
Then adjust according to counter sources, as well as civilian deaths. But US government sources likely to underestimate Ukraine deaths, at least while it’s still drumming up support for more money to be spent there.
UN Geneva says as of this week: “More than 26,700 civilian casualties, including over 9,500 deaths, have been confirmed; the real number is certainly higher.
Over 6 million people have fled to neighboring countries. Over 5 million have become internally displaced.”
@@gparsr Cuz it's impossible to audit that money. A lot of it is likely ending up in the pockets of defense contractors. Business as usual for American war profiteers. The military industrial complex is literally a racket for the defense industry to keep milking taxpayer money from citizens. If the US didn't have this happening. They could actually put that money into their own citizens like infrastructure or education. China has done this, that's why their cities look so futuristic.
@@gparsrwow 9500 civilians killed in like 20 months... that's a genocide Biden says.Meanwhile As of today Nov18 2023 13000 civilians killed by Isreal with US bombs in 5 weeks.Biden says No ceasefire and Isreal has the rigth to defend itself Wow 😢
Source: trust me bro, the Russians wouldn’t lie
People who say things like this haven't yet realised- and may never realise- that however deplorably untrustworthy the Russian government is... and it is deeply untrustworthy... our own governments in the west are far, far less trustworthy. Millions upon millions have died violently as a result of the US government's lies, my child. And the number of Ukrainian and Russian dead- whatever that number might actually be- is to be added to that same tally.
Even if the figure is only a fifth that high, that's more than the number of US troops killed in Vietnam -and in less that 18 months.
@@Jelperman wow, it’s almost as if all the fighting being done on the Ukrainian side is being done by Ukrainians and almost do the fighting done on the American side in Vietnam was done by the south Vietnamese
Do you have any actual evidence of 60 000+ Ukrainian deaths?
@@jb76489 "Do you have any actual evidence of 60 000+ Ukrainian deaths?" He undoubtedly has evidence to support his figure of equal or greater veracity than the evidence you use to support your lower figure. But don't fret, it's in the nature of people like you to attempt to minimize the casualties of all wars; your brethren were all out during Iraq, Iraq 2, Afghanistan and Libya among other conflicts, I recall. Doing the same debased thing.
go over there and show those ruuskyys what you got personally.
as a Ukrainian I can tell you - you are so wrong!
Mad that now that there is a war in the middle east your nazi friends won't get aid from the west?
He is joining chomsky and others in constructing Ukraine as rightfully Russia's to decide the fate of. I have just gone off him in a major way.
@@billking8843 I feel like when someone just has the contrarian position on everything, they're not actually a very deep thinker.