The Varian Disaster: How 20,000 Romans Were Slaughtered By Tribesmen| Lost Legion of Varus | Odyssey
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- The Lost Legions Of Varus explores the flaws in Roman imperial policy, as well as the fralities of the human condition - factors both relevant in understanding the reasons behind the massacre in the Teutoberg forest.
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I live in Australia i can`t watch youtube with out buffering let alone netflix.
6MB/s up and 2 bits down.
Says code is invalid
Netflix suks!!!!!!
So to sum up German culture is shit roman culture should have won so that they could have prevented every conflict on earth ever
Odyssey - Ancient History Documentaries , why did the victorious Allies shorten the full name of the Holy Roman Reich of the Deutsche Nation to the Roman Empire?
It’s amazing that not only did the Cameraman survive the slaughter, but kept his footage in good enough condition for us to view it today.
Also it’s been colourised. Colour film was invented till much later
The fact you two survived natural selection is even more amazing ♥️
Boooooooo
@@isaacfoster1377 who two? Bougie😂
Back in the day of VHS 📼
I am German, and the slaughter of the legions of Varus by Germanic renegades under the leadership of the Cheruskan prince Arminius, who was educated in Rome, has a very important place in our history books. Without the decisive win of Arminius Germany would culturally have become fully romanized, and we would speak a Romanic and not a Germanic language. The history of Middle and Western Europe would've been very different. It's impossible to say, though, if that would have been a good or a bad thing.
its hard to add anything to your excellent comment, I would just say that this film is just another anti German propaganda putting down the freedom the brave German People fought for and won saving the essential Culture of Europe.
@@Maximilian0011 , thanks! It's indeed interesting that the narrator introduces the battle as the "Varian Disaster". No German expert would call this battle a "disaster" because it wasn't a disaster but a huge and very important victory for the Germanic tribes over their Roman overlords! But it's also true that these Germanic tribes were not a unified force at all. Arminius was murdered by his own people a couple of years later, because he had become too powerful in the eyes of certain factions.
A country called Germany with a distinct military and cultural identity didn't start to emerge before the early 19th century when Napoleon had occupied the Rhineland and Prussia. It's very interesting that around this time Arminius started to become a national hero and people who spoke the German language started to call themselves Germans. And another unlikely German war hero emerged because of Napoleon: Field Marshal Blücher, who spent the better part of his military career fighting against Napoleon, and who was already 74 years old and came out of retirement in order to lead his Prussian army for the last time against Napoleon in Waterloo. And it's quite possible that Napoleon might've won the Battle Of Waterloo, if Blücher and his Prussians hadn't managed to reach the battle field against all odds at a very critical moment. Wellington reportedly said:"I wish it would get dark or the Prussians would come!", and while he later conceded that Waterloo was "the most near-run thing" he was ever involved in, he also started to belittle the contributions of Blücher and his Prussian generals. However, Blücher and his young generals Scharnhorst and Gneisenau became war heroes and unifying household names for the Germans - until the end of WWII. But then everything changed, and the Germans became very conflicted about their past heroes like Arminius and Blücher. That is of course totally understandable! After the fall of Hitler and his terrible regime from 1933 - until 1945 it wasn't possible anymore to admire and acknowledge great warriors with Germanic roots, and some historians argue that without Arminius or Blücher the rise of someone like Hitler would have never been possible in the first place. This of course a very far fetched speculation, because it's absolutely impossible to figure out what else could have happened if there had been no Arminius or no Blücher. But it's also true that Hitler and his minions have abused someone like Arminius for propaganda purposes. He wasn't even called Arminius which was his Roman name. Since the early 19th century he was called "Hermann der Cherusker", since he was from the Cherusker tribe. But no one knows for sure if his name was really Hermann.
Maybe, you know all this already. But others might be interested in these tidbits 😃
@@sabineb.5616 Interested in the tidbits. Thank you.
@@patriciajrs46 , you're welcome 😀
I have always been fascinated by those historical crossroad moments, which are cherished and celebrated by one faction and loathed by others. The destruction of Varus" legions is one of those moments - even after more than 2000 years! It's crazy that we still don't know all that much about the battle itself and Arminius' exact motives for his betrayal. Until fairly recently experts weren't even sure where it happened because the huge stretches of dense primal forests of that area which the Romans found so depressing and suffocating, had fully swallowed the battlefield after a couple of years. Today most archeologists who have looked into this, believe that the battle happened near the small town Kalkriese where loads of suggestive material has been unearthed. Kalkriese btw is not in the area we call today "Teutoburg Forest". And Arminius' Germanic name has never been "Hermann" as he has been called in German history books since the late 18th and early 19th century. But Arminius became a hero in the German speaking states which had been conquered by another emperor - Napoleon! And the fight against Napoleon became another crossroads event for the Germans who still didn't exist as a unified state.
@@sabineb.5616 If he was called Hermann, then what did those Germans call him? If you don't mind my asking.
This guy should narrate EVERY documentary, ever...
It sounds like the old Butler from Downton Abbey.
He sounds like the Butler from Downton Abbey.
@@PennelopeWhitmore
It **is** Jim Carter- pause the credits...
The suffering of soldiers in those times is unimaginable.
One of things I've been allowed to learn having lived in BW and looking at the dialects, tons of latin words are used in dialect like in Bavarian. There's a whole website dedicated to it but "finster/faischter" (Ehningen, BW pronunciation of the word) is like dark, unnerving, scary. Finis terrae. - End of the earth.
Human suffering is human suffering, human cruelty is human cruelty.
@@ivanostry3359 Yes, but it seems to me that if you were in the army, the probability of sustaining an injury and a severe injury would be much greater than if you were a civilian. For example, your body being pierced by a sword, being disemboweled, being trampled by a horse, lying on the battlefield and having fractures all over your body and lying there for hours until you die, bleeding to death... you get the picture?
For sure it would've sucked, but imagine being at the battle of the somme, kursk, or staying stalingrad. A lot worse
Yeah, all war is hell but axe and sword, mace, arrows, war hammer and spears are brutal beyond imagine. I don`t think people realize just how much stamina and strength it takes to fight hand to hand with melee weapons. I am a re-enactor and do Civil War and Viking battle, knight etc. After three minutes of clashing, my arms become like lead. Now imagine Vikings fighting with their longships lashed together on the water fighting other Vikings. It is rolling, wet and the transom ar edge of the boat is about 3 or 4 inches wide and you have to stand firm on it to have any purchase. The axes and swords are whipping at speeds we can`t even imagine today. Leg strikes are key. to land blows. Try doing that on water with winds and rolling seas for an hour. I doubt a single man alive today, with all the gym equiptment in the world to get stronger, could last a minute. THAT is how good the Vikings were as warriors. Add the fact that they were always in enemy or foreign soil with few provisions or a supply line to keep them in good and fixed armor and weapons, and they were about 2 inches taller than most of Europe at the time and you find one bad-ass mother coming for you with NO FEAR at all. To die in combat was their goal to reach Valhalla, so they just steamrolled everyone in their way.
I love the way the professor says the German "missed out on becoming civilized". Maybe their lifestyle of hunting, horsemanship and freedom they preferred to the specter of Roman taxation and slavery.
“So…Rome wants my wife and children as servants and concubines, while I fight in the arena? No problem.”
Keep in mind the ethnicity of this Commentator....a race of people whose byword is hatred and like the historian Josephus not to be relied apon.
@@bertplank8011
Have another espresso.
And keep your life simple.
I think he meant Germany wasn’t Romanized
Every European war can trace it start an there in that forest
I admire Ancient Rome for it's many accomplishments, but, it's clear that they experienced the other side of the coin here. They slaughtered, subjugated and absorbed many, many people into the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire and they got a taste of how it felt in that deep, dark forest.
Serves the Romans right. Let this be a great reminder to future wannabe imperialists.
@@jasondelrosario5523 everyone was it, starting with the Communist armies in Afghanistan.
But as usual the Romans never forget and had their revenge in the battle of Idistaviso.
@@bluesman1947 Very true but the Germanic people contributed to the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD. The Germanic tribes eventually, and violently, pushed the occupying Romans from their land. They got the last vengeance.
@@larsondarcy101 Well said
For about 20 years I have informally read on this subject, and I was privately taught by learned teachers of the subject. It combines my interest of history, warfare, strategy and tactics, and also of metal detecting.
I thoroughly loved this presentation.
The rift existed throughout most of Europe. Given the Roman's acquired most of their territory through conquest you cannot actually believe people wanted to be Roman. This is especially true when you weren't a Roman citizen but lived in a Roman city.
It's always strange when history is written by the victors. When the Roman's died it was a massacre but when others died it was a battle.
Exactly!
History is always written by the victors. The losers are dead. It would be strange if history were written by the losers/dead 🤔
Like WW1 and WW2 as well as well as evil Uncle Hitler.
Exactly. They just ignore all those "barbarians" who were slaughtered, raped, and enslaved by the Romans on the regular.
Its always like that. Unfortunately the victors were usually the most advanced and savage of the two. US History: Natives won the battle it was a massacre, the US won it was a victorious battle. Women and children slaughtered by US soldiers it was a success. Women and children killed by Natives it was a savage attack.
I think Arminius was more than an opportunist, gambler, and a coniving person. He planned a military uprising against the most powerful military force at that time, and won based on tactics and knowing his people's strengths and his enemy's weaknesses. Have to have more than luck, and skilled deceitfulness to pull off what he did. Many get opportunities, but fail to use them successfully. He took an opportunity and crafted a victory. He and his people deserve more credit than this video gives them.
Hey man be nice, that's my ancestor you are slandering.
👍👍👍
You absolutely right, see my own comment.
Agree. They tried to shame what he did and belittle the great achievement. Amazingly bias point of view and extremely pro-roman. If a Roman pulled this off, his triumphal arch and achievements would be glorified with many superlatives and books extolling the event. But as it was a lowly Germanic leader he most of gotten lucky, been an opportunist and conniving villain to have pulled off this form of trickery of poor Varus and those he lead to their doom.
Doesn't matter how but THAT you win.
I have to say, I got a sardonic chuckle out of the line about Augustus' "glorious" reign, "He brought peace to the Roman world..." after which the speaker listed all the areas of Europe and North Africa which he "annexed." That's peace? As one of the Celtic kings of Britain is said to have said about Rome (descriptive, in my view of every empire in history), "They make a wasteland, and call it peace."
I think this was about the time the phrase "F*** around and find out" was coined.
The last conclusion blew my mind. I remember my mother quoting that "Varus, Varus, give me back my legions!" and how they had to learn all those which event happend in which year yada yada but without substance, but I never knew of the significance of that battle - or rather slaughter.
I will now look more into these parts of history. Growing up near Gießen, and by that near Waldgirmes and now living netxt to the Teuteburger Wald, where this all took place makes a shiver run down my spine.
My family is from Grosslengen near Halle` - coming to America in 1928
Germany brought down Rome, they then migrated to Britain, who became a mix of germanic and romanic, and the Germans then themselves, were brought down by Britain. (1704, 18th, 19th century, ww1, ww2)
@@dalegrant9282
Realize there was no Germany as a nation til unified under Bismark in 1871 whereupon it rapidly overtook both Britain & France industrially for their work ethic! Educational systems effect creating "State of the Art" manufacturing....which is why the Globalist Central Banksters had to setup the taking down of the newly minted Germany 'to get her on board' for they already had both Britain & France in their pockets[The CITY of LONDON(CentralBankers)] ...!
AND why they had to ~
1) get total control of U.S. monetary system($ink "the Titanic" to $etup- FED+IR$),
2) install a complicit shill POTUS + U.S. Congress,
3) while setting up a massive Civil War=WWI(as they had wars for profit over century's),
4) finance a Communist Russian Bolshevik takeover(via Lenin from Switzerland)
With all 4 accomplished in 1910 Jekyll Island meeting,
a) 1912 install shill Wilson w/(D) majority to pass FRA,
b) 1913 inact illegal Federal Reserve Act (midnight Christmas Eve),
c) 1914 Euro Civil War(WWI)
d)1917 Lenins Bolshevik
YET Germany couldn't be defeated by most all of Europe w/20+ colony nations helping- so sent in their installed U.S. potus Woodrow by having LIE to the American people promising ~ "IF you reelect me I promise not to get us involved in Europe's War"...!
Then had their U.S. FED RESERVE Banksters write the Treaty of Versaille to pillage & rape a now broke, starving & broken nation(Germany) during the Weimar to become Bolshevik II and Communist politicians stuffed ballot boxes as Communist terrorist ransacked the countryside like ANTIFA/BLMhas here only armed = of which my father was in firefights with til 1928 (when he immigrated to America as did my mother) when a 17yr old farmboy to protect his sisters & mother starting in 1918 that went on until Adolf was appointed by President Hindenburg as temp. Chancellor in '33 to help stop the Commie takeover....well he did...!
For the larger plan was for the Central Bankster financed new Soviet Union(under Stalin) to arm up to take all Europe for Communism(Godless NWO)
Only clear knowledge was Russia now the USSR could never takedown a strong Gernany = why was the need to put her on her knees in defeat = why a Euro Civil War(WWI)....but took America's involvement to do...!
Only Hindenburg @88 died of cancer (1yr later) whereupon Adolf declared himself "Fuhrer" to within 3yrs be on the cover of TIME as ~
"Man of the Year" [1936] to have rebuilt Germany under National Socialism...!
This in his & Germany's knowing Stalin was being financed to invade(ALL Europe w/Germany 1st) once he was sufficiently armed up(as was plan'd)
So Adolf secretly armed Germany fooling the Central Banksters with his own plan tor creating a Nation State a New Germany for Germans not merely a part of the planned Globalist Communist Christless-NWO...!
[This is NOT to glorify Adolf for he was all Germany had going for them in the face of what was forced unto them]
This IS why he struck Stalin before he was ready = knowing Communism is very inefficient...,
REALIZE by 1941 Stalin had genocided 40million of his own people[10-12million Ukrainians alone] and invaded 4 country's YET the Globalist run Brits, French & U.S. = FDR- "friend of Stalin - a man he could trust" - sent 600•million tons of every kind of supply's & equipment under "Lend Lease" (same as for 1 thru Britain) well before Pearl Harbor which FDR set up to get the U.S. into alliance with Globalist Churchill who along with France declared War on Germany for invading Poland [[ + that's another untold story as to why ]]
*Sadly too late U.S. General George Patton realized ~
" WE defeated the wrong enemy"... he was assassinated just as was JFK=18 short yrs later,
as had been POTUS Abraham Lincoln as well, as several other U.S. Predidents for bucking the Globalist Banksters esp an attempt on Andrew Jackson's life by a socialist anarchist who ~
"Kicked out the Central banksters"
as his stated "greatest accomplishment" stated when on his death bed....!
Personally I believe "they" had POTUS George Washington bled to death to quiet him from warning America of the danger of the City of London Bankster cabal whom owned the very British Empire ~
"WE the(real)People" fought for Independence...!
None of this is new but traces back millenia to the "money changers" Geo-Political-Religious + world empire leaders of the ime Christ Jesus , then back to Babylon & finally back to "The Garden" itself where it ALL started ~
"The Love of money is the root of ALL Evil"
Today's world situations puts us all on the cataclysmic verge of the Greatest of GOOD against the Darkest of Evil at ~
"The End of Days"
....and Awakening time for those who would chose Righteousness is almost over.....WE need a 3rd "GREAT AWAKENING" added to the 1st + 2nd that "created then built America"
IF in fact WE are to survive what's prophecied to come as a nation and perhaps the entire world of nations for ~
"NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR NOT EVEN THE SON"
@@mtman2 nonsense Germany has been around for a millennia, just with different names
@@dalegrant9282
LOL = you know nothing;
- so remain in your clueless indoctrinated & comfortable low•info box...!
I lived in Bramsche, near Kalkriese, where the slaughter took place. There is an archeological site and a museum, I visited both. The Roman mask is in the museum.
Visited from the US a few years ago. Great site and the museum itself is somewhat a work of art.
There's a restaurant too. I had beer and curry wurst.
@@Johannes_Brahms65 Yes, my husband had that treat at some little place, he said, in Germany (on leave) back in the sixties.
He has a Hungarian and Greek background.
He liked it but wasn't hot enough.
To this day, 75 in October, there is nothing so hot that he won't eat it.
He is also originally from New Jersey.
That might be it🤔
He died with his mask on!
Been there in 2019, very impressive! Also quite unnerving to realize that a mere 2 to 3 metres below my feet the soil had once been drenched in blood...
In my opinion this is the most concise, yet complete, documentary on the subject. I especially appreciated the archeological aspects of the battle along with the well supported political counterfactual suppositions outlined in the conclusions. Not only is this video worth watching repeatedly the subject is eminently deserving of further study. Beyond the historical confirmation and in addition to the political considerations presented, there is a wealth of life lessons to be distilled and internalized.
Ermanamer (Arminius) was reported to be over 6 ft tall, he had a sharp jaw, long head, prominent chin, straight nose, blonde hair and blue eyes. He was only 25 at the time of the battle at Teutoburg forest.
I feel like young Dolph Lundgren would have did a MUCH better job at playing Arminius than the actor in the netflix series Barbarians...
Aryans were a tall, beautiful, industrious and noble Volke. Now, we know why they have been perpetually genocided for over 3,000 years. Fun fact: Aryans buried in Northern China, over 4,000 years ago, had males who stood 6'6" and taller! Then we have the Roman account of first encountering Aryans in the Caucaus mountains region. One Roman commander estimated the first encountered Aryan leader stood well over 8' tall and described Aryans as a tall attractive people with light hair and a noble disposition. History subverted.
@Der Schleier -- Don't stop there. I'm sure you have some not-Aryan groups to blame and hold an imaginary ancient grudge against. Don't be coy. You're an avowed racist, right?
@@mojoman2001 Follow us to the woods, you will find out. Like Teutoberg.
@@DerSchleier Beautiful to read about our race brother
@@forestprophet There are no human races, and the "Aryans" were the Indo-Iranians who split into the Iranians (Iran=Aryana) and the Indo-Aryans in India.
They're only distantly related to Germans or other Germanic peoples, and you shouldn't try to STEAL their achievements and glory.
When the thunderstorm began i can imagine the germans happily cheering, thinking Donar (Thor) himself wants to join the battle now.
Began learning topo/ medicine
For those who don't know, the battle at the Teutoburgerwald, was actually about 80 km northwest, north of the German town of Osnabrück. Many tribes fought there, from both sides of the Rhine from the river Lippe towards the North sea. Artefacts are found in many German and Dutch towns belonging to the vanished legions. After this battle the Frissii (not the Frisians, Dutch/Belgium tribe), Tubanti (Dutch/Saxon Tribe) and Bataven (Dutch tribe, name giver of Batavia and the Batavian common wealth) rose up against the Romans. And the north part and trade towards Scandinavia/Britain ended and thus made the northern shores open for attacks and unwanted migrations towards Britain.
Romans vs Vikings ?
... Sorry Rome , yee ass is grass
I did not know Frisians were from Belgium as well as Netherlands. Because aren't Frisians from Northern Netherlands? Cheers from California
I’ll get you the next
Southwest!
@@toadjamaicanbobsled580 Not only vikings.
Don’t forget he was taken in by Rome, went through the Roman Legions..he knew how to fight and he knew the Romans and also he was a great commander.
Arminius is a drastic example that adaption to a new home and culture against a person's will doesn't work. This is a timeless lesson. And even if parents adapt completely to a new country they broke up to, their children might feel displaced where they grow up, belonging neither here nor there, sometimes with bad consequences.
It does work most of the time, only here it didn't
@@felipecortez1042 not really, most first generation kids express a kind of “neither here nor there” attitude when it comes to identity
@@fromthegetgo4981 depends; I bet you of Arminius was never sent to Germany this would have never happened.
Very evident with the natives of North America and other immigrants.
Catboykami mentioned this 🥲
43:01 This comment relegating Arminius to a "lucky gambler" is uncharitable at best, and downright insulting at worst. I suspect that the man who made the statement is a Romanophile, and like many other British historians, views the people who fought against Roman oppression as little more than barbarians.
I also admire the ancient Romans, but do not allow that feeling to infringe upon the great and honorable accomplishments of Rome's adversaries.
Outstanding documentary!
So many lessons to be learned; Politicians make lousy Generals, know your terrain, never take the locals for granted.
Varus must have not learned anything from julius caesar
And even today we had the debacle in Vietnam where politicians tried to direct military strategies and execution. As a young Army lieutenant 55 years ago, I could see we were going down a dark road. And even fairly recently our shameful departure from Afghanistan shows that the people in power never learn.
Empires... There's something about the way they operate that continues down the ages.
More like don't let the locals unite Rome didn't stand a chance once they united
@@christopherfranklin4760 I would call afghan war as just. It is only US didn't go after Islam.
Arminius was a hero to many Germanic countries as he saved their culture and identity from outside influences.
Doesnt matter now tho, islam has taken over germany
That´s how german nationalists portrayed him in the 19th century. But why then did he die in a family feud? Maybe he was a man with a big ego and bigger ambitions? And as a roman cavalry officer on home turf, he thought he could pull off a little treacherous mutiny to assemble a loyal band of foolowers and stick it to Segestes and the Markomans, but that didn´t last??
@@paavobergmann4920 "treacherous mutiny" against foreign invaders. How are they treuewürdig to you
@@ErdoganIstKeinZiegenfi... Arminius was a decorated roman officer, he and his cavalry unit were part of the roman military, and fought for Rome on the Balkans. That´s where the "Mutiny part comes in. Similar things happened a couple of times with auxilliary units along the river Danube. Second: No one was trustworthy in 1st century germania, neither Chatti nor Markomanni, Suebi, Cheruski or Romans. As it appears, germanic chieftans were far more interested in family feuds and internal powerstruggles, there doesn´t appear to have been a sense of unity, contrary to the roman citizens. The motivation of clan chefs seems to have been, mainly, "What´s in it for me/my clan?"
The fact that his alliance broke very soon, and about 300 years before the Suebi dissolved the raetian Limes suggests to me, that "Germania" as an entity (ethnic, political, culturally, doesn´t matter) was a roman invention, and alien to the germans. The thing that united the tribes was, they didn´t like to be taxed. Period.
What I don´t get is: Why did the romans deploy an officer close to his homeland, alongside local auxilliary forces? Ok, he knew the lay of the land and the local languages and customs, but the conflict of interest seems very obvious to me.
Anyways, it seems to be pretty clear to me that Arminius fought for himself rather than for a general Germania, or against a general Invader. He didn´t liberate anyone or anything, and didn´t even attempt to. He earned prestige among germanic warlords. Success. Roman military actions continued way into the second century at least, up to the river Elbe and beyond, until they gave up on germania, because there simply wasn´t enough structure to effectively govern anything. Not because any germans drove them out.
@@paavobergmann4920 "Roman military actions continued way into the second century at least, up to the river Elbe and beyond, until they gave up on germania, because there simply wasn´t enough structure to effectively govern anything. Not because any germans drove them out." Tacitus had a very different view on that. And yes, after the Romans gave up their military expeditions against marauding bands that had crossed the Rhine (and which were no more directed to conquering land), they were themselves conquered by those they had, according to Tacitus slain like cattle themselves...
Really well-done documentary that shows how quickly things can change for anyone even the mightiest army or empire.
I appreciate the fact that the long term ramifications were emphasized.
The presentation was very clear. The story of Varus and Arminius, the context of the time and the modern research woven together to illuminate the subject was enjoyable .
A story well told.
Could have had popcorn and soda for a few of us
I cry bullshit on this being Europe's start of all wars after. Just bullshit
Varus was a giant ass that's why all that happened.
It's not as if the Romans were benevolent in 'civilising the barbarians'. There is a lot to said be for letting local cultures develop with being colonised.
@@honeheke4554 No not always but they were very clever. They would do things to pacify the population like build bigger monuments or holly shrines sometimes worshipping both Roman and the local gods.
A very intelligent move considering this would greatly please the local tribes and cities that pledged themselves to Rome.
Although I not entirely happy with the historical accuracy of this video. This attack could've been avoided if Varus wasn't an ass who had listened to his scouts and prepared.
"VARUS, give me back my legions"
Augustus (Octavian) Caesar.
The Legions were fearsome when deployed on open ground in full array, set up in their ranks, backed by archers, ballistae, scorpion bolt-throwers, archers, and flanking cavalry.
An army in miles of narrow marching order is a very different and much weaker thing. Arminius’ use of obstacles and multiple attacks- on his chosen ground of fen and forest flanked by hills- meant the three legions were divided and harried for days only able to arrange ever smaller defensive actions... until they were no more.
Very well said not many know why the Roman's failed in combat but they had major problems in 1vs1 combat and/or out of formation combat like you've explained.
Don't forget the ballistas
A strategy that when entrained or road marched thru unknown land the army should have alternative small cadre structures so when redeployed or reacting it is fully capable in microcosm and when arriving at a destination can spread out recombining into a field army lessons unlearned see the bilge 35 cooks 24 rifles hard pressed to do anything but surrender or die
And killer dogs Canis Corso bred to kill men in battle.
People breed them now in suburban homes
This was a splendid documentary!! Great storytelling with a sneak peak into the process of archaeological discovery. I really love how we are taken on a journey of an investigation.
I liked it as well. I have learned to keep an open mind and not necessarily believe everything I'm told are historical facts, but until I learn otherwise, I thought that was very informative and interesting.
they identify the narrator, yes?
I wish they would have explained how Rome found out it happened were there survivors or did Rome notice the revenue not coming in? And how did they find out who was behind it?
Man this is an outstanding war story never had I heard such war planning as this story of the massacre in the Teutoberg forest.
Superb visuals of what it must have looked like when Germanicus first arrived. I was at Teutoburg back in December 2017. It is a haunting place. I found a place that was quiet to have a moment of silence for the fallen.
A good place to reflect on the perils of empire.
Augustus was smart enough to know when to call it quits.
The Roman upper class was tired of bloodshed. Thats why he pushed Pax Romana to appease them.
His interest was neither the Pax Romana nor the republic, but absolute power even over his own people ... just like his uncle, but yes, obviously smarter than him ..
@@luke3807
The Germans gained freedom from you. Deal with it.
What an absolutely superb documentary!! From The narrator's voice to the reenactments...... One could literally put themselves back two thousand years ago.....
I was pretty surprised at the ending. Arminius beat the Romans and tried to unify the Germanic tribes, but ten years later was assasinated and the region remained scattered for a large part of recent history.
Perhaps people realized that they had just traded a foreign tyrannical regime for a local tyrant and they wanted neither ;-)
@@i.qwertzuiopu6068 Or tribal identity at the time was just to strong to overcome? I mean its very possible Arminius was a power hungry tyrant who didn't care a wit for freedom for the Germanic peoples. But its also possible he did but the ancient Germanic culture and tribal divisions made his goal impossible.
Romans defeated Arminius 10 years later. Let's not change history please.
Wow! What an excellent presentation. Not just the physical evidence, but the reenactments and the discussions of the implications. Thank you!
"Live by the sword, die by the sword"
Never fails....
the savages found that out didnt they?
I would have thought Romes darkest hour was during the Carthaginian Hannibal attacks. In the battle of Cannae Hannibal slaughtered 70,000 Roman soldiers. Overall he killed over 200,000 during his multiple battles with Rome.
I would have thought it was in the Gothic Wars when Rome was sacked and the western Emperors deposed.
Or the siege of Constantinople on 1453.
@@huntclanhunt9697Nothing much changed for most Romans even though the Goths assumed power. They basically continued to govern as Romans using the in place institutions and infrastructure, even the Senate continued to function until 603 when it was replaced by the Eastern Roman Senate in Constantinople.
@@huntclanhunt9697since I wrote the comment above I learned some more. Although more Roman deaths happened in the battles we listed it wasn't the same. The battle talked about in this video is the first time Roman Empire expansion was halted. For the first time they started to realize they couldn't conquer & control the entire world.
The historical, economic, social, religious, etc. rifts caused by one battle most people know nothing about!
Thank you for the reminder. I had planned to become a military officer so I knew of this pivotal battle.
I'm so glad you received good information from this documentary. Glen Martin, hope you enjoy and expand your mind throughout your life. You're never to old to learn. Thank you for watching my playlist. Have made many more in different topics. To keep the knowledge flowing.
Before you do join you should know what you will be really fighting for!
Watch the greatest documentary ever made called, JFK to 9 11 everything is a rich man's trick.
It's on youtube and will show you why most modern wars were fought!!!
Arminius may not have invented the long game, but he surely played it like a master for one so young.
I love the cause and effect of history. How things that happened thousands of years ago affects the modern world.
Love ancient history and enjoyed this discussion immensely.
I lived in Arnsberg in 1964 -65. Teutoburger wald is a bit more up north.In the winter of 64 we sledged through half a meter of snow in a similar wald.( arnsberger wald) I was so impressed as a kid by the grandeur of this nature it stays with me to this day. This mysterious haunting nature can be found in many parts of Germany so I’m not surprised Romans didn’t return. It’s really haunting.
They did return , "Germanicus" was the leader!
@@rogerdodger8813 And lost again
in reality they did it. German archaeologists have found hundreds relics from a huge battle between a Roman army and Barbarians in the third century, long after historians believed Rome had given up control of northern Germany. Lutz Stratmann, science minister for the German state of Lower Saxony said we have to write our history books new, because of recent discoveries, and archeologists Petra Loenne and Henning Hassman agreed with him. Also, we know there were Romans in Poland, in Czech Republic, in Ukraine and other lands.
@@anonymous-zk3mi There were 7 Romans in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Ukrain 😂 😂 😂
Okay. 7 is a lot of Romans
@@catholicracialist776 and all them agreed you are a troll...
This is a superb documentary. Clarifies and brings together some things I had already known and others that I wasn't or was only vaguely aware of.
Bravo
An outstanding video,perfect presentation,great graphic,and calm sugestive voice of this gentleman.Joyable and useful.Thank you,sincerelly.
What voices! 😳 This grabbed my attention from word one. I think this is my favorite documentary of all time, and I’ve seen hundreds. Just Wow! ❤❤
Enthralling and exceptionally well produced. This is the way world history should be taught!
My thoughts exactly!
I second that
Before all the "reality" shows, you could actually learn stuff on the history channel. They had shows like this all the time.
@@lSAMV31l I don’t watch reality show it’s a waste of time. Look at the Government same shit different day😂😂🤦♀️
What history ? our so called history is a lie
Believe what youy want but do not preach
Great documentary, loved the narration and how vivid it was, the historians were also sublime. Great to see the archeological remnants, too.
Not when they are using the same derogatory terminology copied from Roman propaganda. Lousy historians and narrators do that.
@@forestdwellerresearch6593 only one guy did that at the very end of the vid. Which indeed was lousy. Not because of 'what' he said, but because of what he didn't say.
@@forestdwellerresearch6593 what terminology?
@@forestdwellerresearch6593 Can you please let us know what that derogatory terminology was? I didn't catch it but am very curious. Please elucidate your reply. Thank you
@@chrishenderson07 Romans tales of the Barbaric people they met and so on....
Impressing that the Barbarians had a population large enough, and were able to coordinate enough to pull off this attack.
That's not how it happened. They didn't need too have many warriors. The land tipped the sxales in the favour, as the Legions couldn't use their advantage of numbers when they were spread out
@@varalderfreyr8438 Yes, numbers weren't the deciding factor. Strategy, planning, communication, coordination and discipline decided the battle.
Arminius was trained on military strategy in Rome.
Incredible video. This was also a turning point, to some degree, to the limitations of the Roman Empire, and eventually it's downfall.
Thank you for making this available to people such as myself. These are incredibly valuable resources, and I am sincerely grateful. 🙏
I found this documentary quite well done, and thoroughly fascinating. 🙂
An amazing find and a great video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Excellent program! Intesting from first minute till the end! I admired the whole production but especially the narrator.
Varus' head was not found in the woods. It was sent by Arminius to Marbod of the Macromanni, but Marbod refused it and had it sent to Rome where it was interred in the royal mausoleum. Three minutes in and I'm already cringing a little...
Yeah...they didn’t present that very well. The narration doesn’t say his head was found in the woods, but if one puts the narration and video together it can be understood that way.
He never said it was actually, but they didn’t edit that bit properly and made it sound like it was
You could go on fr sometime picking the flaws, so much of this is just speculation.
@Vincent Magnin I think their point was that the Romans were not able to conquer Germany in the time period they are referring to, so there was a divide between Germany and Rome.
Wait till you reach 9 minutes in when they portrait a seasoned governor of provinces as a meek lawyer (victim of nepotism ofc), you know the one who crushed a rebellion in Syria and crucified thousands.
What a dumpsterfire
I've never heard of this bit of European history.
Thank you to all who researched these events, and have shared it with us.
I've been to the actual location a couple of times. It's unreal to see people from all over the world talk about the battle and its enormous consequences. Walking down the trail which the Romans are supposed to have taken, looking down on everything from the observation tower and all those things make my imagination run wild every time.
@@karlwithak1835 You need a hug. Way too much anger and discontent on Christmas morning.
Try and relax a little bit.
No one is impressed with your hyperbole.
@Karl with a K you keep spamming the same message, but fail to provide a different view/theory...
Either you trolling or just want attention
Thanks for your work and time making this video, it's excellent ❤❤
One of the best history programs I have ever watched.
The morale of the story, never make the mistake of under estimating your enemies. Never take them light.
As brutal as it is, America's way of conquering manifest destiny is the most effective. Depopulate the areas you want and fill them with your own people.
@@davidwilliams7723 The Natives had the option to assimilate, they chose reservations instead. But you're correct, manifest destiny was a great way to conquer territory.
@@Uhtredrag1080 lol
There was, of course, another option that you neglected to mention. Which is unbelievable really because it's the option the natives actually chose. The option to repel and expel. Unfortunately for them, I guess, they failed. No amount of obfuscation or rewriting of the history will ever change that reality. It may in time no longer be talked about truthfully. But it cannot change the facts. Just like that other period of United States history that other peoples had practiced since time immemorial, we'll never get past it or talk about it truthfully. Because of this or that group's agendas. We can't be remembered for outlawing the practice. Only that it was in practice.
But I have come to expect dishonesty from most people who broach these kinds of topics. No good deed can ever go unpunished.
I assume you mean brutal as in not allowing themselves to be subjugated or annihilated? That horrible kind of brutality? Thank goodness or sensibilities and ways of thinking have evolved and improved over time. But if we lie about things or judge the past based on current sensibilities and doctrine, you're just going to look like a dishonest and bitter rabble-rouser. But I suspect you already know that. Just like I'm pretty sure you know the truths about the things you try to confuse. Anyway. Good luck with everything. You won't be around to realize this, but eventually your kind will have convinced enough people and the history will be rewritten just the way you want it to be. Congrats!
It's impossible to tell what would have taken place had the Roman empire endured in Europe past this time. To say that there wouldn't have been WW l or WW ll or that there wouldn't have been a Hitler is absolutely ridiculous because no one knows what would or would not have happened.
history is mostly a string of events in a causal order. for example nowadays it's common knowledge that there wouldn't be a 2nd WW without the treaty of Versailles.
in our eyes the battle of the Teuteburger Wald seems to be very, very long ago, coz our own life is so very short. so actually it makes perfect sense to assume that there would be no Charlemagne for instance.
but yes nobody could say that for sure.
Go look up the merovingian war clan
You are right. But documentations aren't complete without some emotive words, and "Hitler" must never miss.
This is how you convey history; exciting, interesting, fact based, scholarly informed, rich with perspective and enthusiasm for the subject. Thank you very much.
Have you even read the headline? Massacre of 20 000 Roman Soldiers? Just to make Germans look bad and you call it "well balanced"?
@@petermages9482 Here’s some free advice: go be offended where anybody gives a shit. Tip: it’s not here..
@@44holmez You seem offended! lol
The Roman legions were great open-field battle fighters. But in a guerrilla warfare situation in a dense forest, they were simply out of their element.
Didn't they lose a legion that marched into Scotland, as well?
@martinwade9421 Quite possibly. I know that the Romans never conquered Scotland.
Very true!
Really entertaining and informative. I could watch documentaries like this for days on end.
Rome had a chance to successfully assimilate Germania, but Arminius single handedly prevented that. Rome ceased to have permanent allies and clients across the Rhine, which allowed for centuries of development for Central and Northern Europe, who in turn influenced Western Europe for the next 5 centuries. It took a lot of balls for him to even try this. It must have been years he planned to use his position to create something in favor of his people.
Arminius was a racially pure germanic chad
I don't really know Geordie. Germany had a quite more harsh enviroment than Gallia, all swamps and forests and nobody knew where raw materials were. There were no natural boundaries on the east and it was always turbolent because of scandinavian germans and euro asian nomads on the east. I've read Augustus wasn't interested in Germany and it was more Varus that wanted to emulate Caesar. of course If Rome succeded in conquering germany, German language would have disappeared like celtic languages in france and belgium, probably more roman remains will stand east of rhine. I don't think germanic blood would have changed so much, I think mediterrean people would never liked the idea to settle in germany because of the climate , probably only merchants. Anyway, the westernmost part of germany was fully romanized and the german tribes made and incredible turnaround adopting basicvallyt everything from Rome in order to build their own civilization. I don't look bad on arminius, I am proud of Rome but I know Rome was imperialistic and delivered a lot of suffers - but remember back then everybody were violent and at least Rome brought peace and a decent way of life. But if germans waned to preserve their culture, I can understand arminius is a hero for them even now like vercingetorix was. to my fellow europeans, please understand you have to contestualize past. Cancel culture is a venom from the USA and it's something we must reject and keep our vision of the past.
@@AndreaBorto You threw a 'poisonous' dart at my country--that being, C.C. is a venom of the US--now burdened with our own modern Varus, so now I throw TWO back. (Undrr construction 🚧 too tired to finish....)
P.s.: Your screen name
@@brianjob3018 can't wait
@@AndreaBorto ......then don't be forgetting "the past" as recently as Hitler and his massive and broad "cancel culture". There are many other "cancel cultures" to cite before and since. Seems in your "newly found" European arrogance you have failed to follow your own advice. In the United States, we call folks like you Republicans......trumpers......deplorables......
Thank you. Nice to see some intelligent, well spoken people on TH-cam.
Great presentation, thank you.😊
Very interesting and well done. Thanks! I know I have heard of this some years ago but this presentation put it all together for me.
Watched many documentaries about the battle yet this was the best compiled, insightful and compellingly told story of all. Simply Captivating.
I've watched several times! Legionaries nailed to trees, slowly being killed! Bad day for Rome!
Excellent content and production quality. Life is better with this channel.
This was an absolutely fascinating documentary. I wonder if any of the bones or teeth of the recovered Roman soldiers were analyzed for DNA? Paternal Y haplogroup E1b is common in the Mediterranean region, and presumably was common back in Roman times. In northwest Europe it's relatively uncommon, running at about 2%. But it might show up in ancient Roman remains in the towns they did establish east of the Rhine.
Me Born and raised in the southern parts of the Netherlands called Noord-Brabant does have 24% Italian DNA. Noord-Brabant was also known has “Germania Inferior”.
E1b is more a frequent haplogroup in parts of Africa. I'd assume being similar to the Greeks in genetics, Southern Italy at least, would carry more Y-Haplogroup J during that time. I could be wrong, and it could very well be E1b. Just my add in.
@@glenntheijssen7368 the 35 first roman tribes were from Germanic origin. That's why the first name Germanicus was so common.
@@JayKahns and I am Italian and I also have German and Dutch blood
@@Ameer-dj5gj No, they were Latin. And came from more eastern regions. Germanicus is a title, given after accomplishments in Germania. That’s like saying Africanus is because Roman tribes came from Africa.
Great video. I hope that TH-cam didn't demonetize it because you're discussing history of war. This is very important stuff.
Fascinating! Would like to visit someday.
Thank You for the upload! Awesome!!!
An excellent and thoroughly engrossing presentation.
It's hard to feel sorry for a legacy bully though. I wish I could walk the trail and see what remains in the way of swords, coins, metal objects from Rome.
When you said he was killed "in 19 AD", I heard that he was killed " in 1980." What a long life!
I heard it as 900 a.d. and was like wtf?
and probably he died of Covid too...
9AD
@@khoi83 🤣🤣
I knew I recognized the voice narrating!! It’s Jim Carter, Mr Carson from Downton Abbey!!!
Yes m’lady.
Ooohhhh that's why I recognized his voice
If Mr. Jim Carter had a feather in his knickers, and I had a voice like his, we'd both be tickled.
You have a good ear! And he has a great voice!
most boring show ever made.
Outstanding. One of the best of its kind.
Ive trained in that forest . In the military. I couldn't help but think back to what Roman soldiers would of felt. It blew my mind how they even manuevered that forest tactically with such numbers. Its such a rough environment even today with all our tech.
They though invincible
Because the Romans weren't wussies.
@@wm5994 neither is the infantry . Your point ?
You can see how caesar would be so pissed, all those seasoned veterans lost in a tactical blunder and slaughtered
"a battle few Europeans remember" if anyone remembers this battle I would be seriously impressed
I admit I learned often from the books I,Claudius and Claudius the God by Robert Graves The T V adaptation was an excellent programme,too.I bought it on tapes and again on DVDs
Only 9 AD kids will remember
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
But seriously, history isn't taught in American schools.
Perhaps a few vampires will remembah, ba ha ha ha. (insert cheesy accent)
Sometimes you think you're being smart and sharp and you end being pathetic...🙄
I enjoy listening to these episodes overnight when can't sleep, the voices of the historians & narrator are really soothing & the background battle noises aren't too bad like other programs:) the history aint bad, either!!😅
That was an inspired beginning to the episode: shades of Laurence Olivier narrating the black-and-white footage of the unforgettable series, World at War. Jim Carter has the perfect voice for this narration!👍🏼
They were not savages, but defending their people against the great terror that was the Roman Empire! Isn't it odd how empire always like to appear to hold the high moral ground...continues today! Oh, and ask the Celts who the savages really were...look at the mass of crucified people on the Appian Way!
That's right! The roman Empire had taken over almost all of Germany at that time. I live close to the Teutoburg forest and it makes me angry how romans are always portrayed as the heroes and the great fighters when they really brought nothing but cultural destruction.
@@Zoe-yh9sn My father's family is german, and it is quite possible some of them took part in the battle , . But what their names were, don't know, but they have been soldiers for centuries.
I'm Germanic but I do not see how it would influence my own people as when Teutoburg happened my ancestors had been in Scandinavia for possibly 1000+ years. Also North Germanic gang.
Well said🙂
Seriously!!!! The Roman Empire was the savages
Let's all thank Lord Grantham for letting Carson out for the day to narrate this ;)
😂😂😂
Funny! Good take on Jim Carter. You know production values are top notch when he narrated it.
The Narrator voice is absolutely incredible! So good!
good history lesson very informative
Absolutely fascinating. The hystery of our world is amazing. The growing pains of civilization is just astounding!
It feels that in ways we have gone backwards in evolution though. Should be interesting to see where the human race is in 100 years.
@@Stopsign32v either extinct or grown up
It's a very good point that many of the Romans' previous victories had been over Mediterranean cultures which had been immured over millennia to living in towns and paying taxes by previous empires and so had learned passivity. When Rome had to contend with newly encountered warrior cultures the story was often different. (In Persia a Roman legion suffered a similarly humiliating defeat at the hands of the Parthians, who were no more than shepherds). This explains why after this time the empire stopped expanding. South was the Sahara which was empty and uncrossable. South-East was the Middle East and the Arab tribes, who were another tribal culture, and were as poor as church mice - they had nothing worth taking. East was Germany, nuff said.
positevely I disagree. Dacians, gauls, brittons and germans (caesar's bridge over the rhine), illirians mauretans, etc. Do you want to know why empire stopped expanding? Orders and command were physically sent from Rome to the remote fringe BY HORSE. This mean you just can't rule when your orders take months to be delivered. Roman empire reached his limits. For example, this happened to early islamic empire, it was so huge so governors started to rule by themselves. Also alexander's empire was slitted into satrapies. Of course Rome hadn't always the best commanders or soldiers. So that's why there were huge defeats, but they managed always to avenge them.
They came back and got revenge. If anything the fact that Germany was a bunch of warring tribes worked for the Romans. The slaughter at the Forrest was a unique alliance of tribes that were united ONCE and surprised the Romans.... the history of Rome is much more complex than what you imply also.
The british also stopped the romans!!!
@@kirkkirkland7244 romans were really rude raping even boudicca and daughters and basically they conquered britannia in order to cut gauls from having a place were retreat. Romans of course were not always a beacon of civilizaitons, and gallic wars made up to 1 million of women children and men dying. but at the end romans conquered the whole of wales and england and they succesfully rebutted the forefathers of scottish people. Agricola made it clearly hibernia (ireland) and modern scotland could be conquered easily but wasn't worth the effort (Romans were quite different from us italians they were so cynical and calculator) so they kept only a part of the british isles.
@@jhtsurvival it is however interesting how the germanic sense of ethnic uniqueness and independence was as strong back then as it is now. It's incredible how people behave like a single person with a specific personality throughout milleannia
The rift is older than that. Gaius Iulius Ceasar allready wrote about it and described his perceived differences between gauls and germanic tribes in De Bello Gallico.
I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this History Lesson about The Romans and Germanic Tribes~!!! I have always wondered how Rome could have fallen with all their knowledge and expertise and my curiosity would haunt me until now and I was so glad to finally get the reason and I have heard people say today that we are headed straight for the same fate as The Roman Empire and I tend to agree with those who say it. As an old Man of 78 I find it easy to believe America is on a down hill slope to a lower standard of living.
Thanks so much for putting all this together for us Laymen to learn from it. I'm a New Subscriber Today~!
The Varian Disaster runs deep! When the Romans went back across the Rhine for the raping killing and plundering reprisals of the German tribes they found many Roman prisoners so they were NOT all slaughtered like led to believe. They also found all the lost standards but one. That one lost standard is still out there in the German forests somewhere! Later on Emperor Tiberius became very jealous of the "victories" the commander of the new Roman Army was making and recalled the army. That commander was Germanicus and he was murdered by a jealous Tiberius later which in turn gave Rome one of its biggest disasters Emperor Caligula.
Maximus??? Are you not entertained????
Yeah, there seems to be a historical bias towards the Roman empire, as if it were some great respecter of rights.
We simply cannot know what the consequences of having an unchecked Roman Empire would be. This kind of documentary ignores Mussolini's inspiration for Hitler or the imperial Roman example to later monarchs.
@@RobBCactive Mussolini was around 1900 years after this. That's another documentary.
how amazing would it be to find that lost standard?! its still out there in that German forest guarded by many warrior specters...
Thank you #Odyssey #AncientHistoryDocumentaries for this great historical report!
This is an awesome documentary on the subject…another good one is one of the “Barbarians Rising” episodes
What a great documentary. I would pay to watch this in a cinema.
Armenius was the son of a German tribes noble man ( Cherusker) and forcefully (?) sent to Rom at around 10 years of age. This was a system of the Roman Empire to take the sons of the noble men hostage to ensure submission of the conquered tribes. Armenius was shocked to see the conditions his folksmen were forced to live in under the Romans. So he never forgot where he came from and he hedged the plan to unite the German Tribes and defeat the. Romans. It's a great historical story of freedom over subpression and supposedly safety.
Yes, he was taken as hostage together with his younger brother. A quite usual practice ubiquitious at those times. Although he was completely romanized and was ‚„equitus“ (knight), the highest rank possible then for non Romans, he defected and fought for his genuine people.
@sneksnekitsasnek exactly...this guy know nothing
imperial tactic, not necessarily any Roman one
social contract that Arminius must've been advancing mustn't have been stomached by any of his prospective tribes.....?
He tried to unite all the germanic tribes permanently under him and was murdered for his audacity, he fought the Romans to free his people and then attempted to impose a Roman style control in his own name.
The moral of the story is never let a lawyer do your fighting for you
Well, leading all those soldiers through a dense forest surrounded by bogs tells you he wasn't a soldier. They were lambs to the slaughter.
LOL
Yeah
@@davidlynch9049 hi dear
@@sergeantwalker4871 👋 and 🪓
This truly gave me shivers.
As a local, growing up at the Southern edge of the forest and having made excursions closer to the central part of it as a kid as well as spending quite some Saturday mornings cutting wood there as a teenager, I have a question to any historians and military experts out there and it's about the terrain and the reasons behind choosing this exact location for the attack:
1) It seems extremely likely that the location of the battle was Kalkriese. Kalkriese is located at the very Northern edge of the forest. From all the information I could gather, the swamp in the North is perfect. It literally translates to 'big bog'. However, this is the critical point: the hill to the South, the Kalkriese 'mountain' SEEMS (haven't been there, just checked topography of the area, pictures, vlogs...) to be less elevated than the typical terrain of Teutoburg Forest. The slope is rather gentle whereas most of the forest is extremely undulating terrain. Lots of hills have gradients between 10 and 25 degrees. There can be huge boulders, cliffs/rock walls, craters, little streams. It often rains, it's typically slippery, muddy, treacherous, it's very easy to stumble, not just over roots but especially descending down a steep hill/slope. Furthermore, the battle is placed in early September of 9 A.D. The likelihood of the ground being muddy/slippery is extremely high, even if it did NOT rain for the 3 days of battle. Being near a bog in a damp area in September, it's sufficient if it rained 2, 3, 4 days prior to battle.
2) I would be grateful if some facts could be checked: a) How likely is it that Kalkriese was the location of the battle? Are we talking near-certainty? b) What does the location look like, in particular: how steep is the elevated terrain opposite the swamp? A relatively gentle and steady slope, a steep hill, undulating terrain that's rising and falling, 'bowls' and craters? c) Combat wounds: the German tribesmen used javelins, slingshots, clubs, melee weapons as far as I know. From excavations, was there a large number of Romans killed by ranged weapons? d) The path the Roman army took: is there any evidence? There's a path depicted here. It's stated that it led the Romans through 'the thickest part of the forest'. Sounds like dramatic effect to me. Kalkriese is on the very Northern edge of the forest and if that's the location, the legions may have found themselves in thicker parts of the forest but were then almost led out of it into a swampy region/the lowlands of Lower Saxony.
3) The reason why I ask all this: The gentler slope around Kalkriese allows for two advantages imo... a) you can close in on an enemy for melee combat quickly and b) you can do so in a more coordinated way. However, the 'typical' terrain that I'm familiar with does NOT allow for it. Most hills are too steep. Whether you're familiar with it or not, you're very likely to slip RUNNING down those slopes (not running ain't an option in a surprise attack during the day). Even if it's dry and you don't slip, that still leaves a very high risk of stumbling, in this case to your death. Melee combat is the last thing you want there, vs superior armour and weaponry, no? But: that terrain seems absolutely perfect for ranged weapons inflicting maximum damage, having cover yourself and almost no way that the enemy successfully closes in on you. Even throwing boulders down can be an option. One more but: using primarily or exclusively ranged weapons leaves the possibility of escape for a large portion of the army, for regrouping as well. Unless you block the path and leave only the swamp and the hills or you create another advantage via ambush further down the path.
4) Arminius must have been fully aware that he needed annihilation of the legions here rather than just a victory. The Romans would return and win otherwise. No cavalry for the tribesmen, pursuit could have proven difficult, right? Okay, familiarity with the terrain would help but in my understanding, letting anything more than a minuscule portion of the legions escape was not an option whatsoever. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
And that leads me to the nagging questions:
- Did Arminius choose that particular location because it had to be total annihilation and it had to be melee combat?
- Or was it impossible to lure the Romans deeper into the forest? What path did they actually take?
- What would you have chosen? The steeper terrain where Romans are more likely to be scattered, get lost, minimal risk for your troops, maximum damage via ranged weapons but a possibility of escape for some Romans? Would you have chosen that kind of terrain and blocked the path?
- Are there other aspects that I didn't account for?
Fascinating; this just reiterates the fact that the past has an extraordinary influence on the present. There is much to learn from history.
Marvellous re-creation. Thank you.
Very interesting fakts. Thx
What a superb documentary. Great production. Thanks
Hermann