Things Are Looking TERRIBLE For Coding Bootcamps in 2024 😬
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- I've been seeing a lot of bad things about coding bootcamps and learning code on the internet lately and I just wanted to share that with you guys.
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What are your thoughts about coding bootcamps in 2024?
Avoid like the plague.
a waste of time and money in this job market lol, better just self learn it
Here is the thing, have you asked yourself why you learnt to write? Did you want to it to write a book? Did you have an idea for a book before learning to code? Probably not. They taught you writing at school. Many people do not know what to do with that skill now, beyond writing a shopping list or an e-mail. Coding is the same, first you need to know what you want to write with it. If you want to be an author of books or at least articles, go learn your writing properly, if you want it for occasional letters for friends, do not waste your time for anything beyond basics. Bootcamps teach you to write, but they won't tell you what book you should write. You are an author, you should know. Programming is an investment in yourself and your future, but only if you think about yourself as an author and not as a journalist working for some local daily tabloid or an agency. So, learn to code, write your system which automates what you hate doing and move on to working with people. You can't stay long under the water first because you will go short of breath, second because there are monsters there, shark? In the digital world it is the same, the pressure on breathing is the precision you have to put in to get your result out, the monsters are the googles, the amazons, etc, you won't escape them. They have armies of people working for them, they will catch up with you. Your only choice is, focus on something small and do it really well, write you own beautiful book and sell it to people ... this is what you need your coding for. If you can't write go to school, if you can't code, it is better to learn from the beginning rather than bounce from website to website.Bootcamps are like other courses ,learn what you need, write what you want, then move on to working with people, coz there will always be place for people around other people. Digital world is not our natural world, as the sea is not. It is better to leave it to digital creatures ... and monster that have just started emerging from the chasms we have opened while chasing gold deep in the unknown ...
I might be biased but I learned a TON from FreeCodeCamp. They also don't promise the world though. I haven't checked it in a while but that site was responsible for me learning the lions share of python.
@@swojnowski453 tl;dr, at least writing courses dont lie to you with the promise of getting a job
I started a bootcamp in August and got a junior dev role in December. It's true, you really DON'T learn enough on a bootcamp to be job-ready, you have to prove yourself with projects and be able to confidently demonstrate your technical ability and emphasise your willingness to learn to get your foot in the door. Don't lie and oversell yourself, employers are not stupid and can see straight through that.
A CS degree is not really any different in that respect though, all my CS degree achieved is getting my foot in the door, and 99% of what I know about coding I learnt on the job since then.
@@sburton84 The CS degree carries some weight though and would put you in a favourable position. My bootcamp certificate is no accreditation just a PDF with a name swapout. In any case, companies are just looking for competent workers who can prove they're capable of learning on the job. I count myself extremely lucky though I've not seen any success from my bootcamp peers.
@@JordanDunne-d5l Yeah, the big difference is the fact that universities are accredited so you know what you're getting, and companies hiring you know you'll meet at least some minimum standard, whereas with a bootcamp you have no idea what you're getting, and as such neither will anyone looking to hire you.
may i ask, how you got the job?
Networking with recruiters on Linkedin.
a doctor, an astronaut, a gardener and now a tech TH-camr, so inspirational
I see what you did there…
JOHNNY THE PROGRAMMER SINS
I came to the comments to find this. I was not disappointed
@@SesterSinmonLMAOOOOOO
You are genius 😂😂😂
silent prayer for people doing bootcamps now. Thanks for being open and honest about it man
I attended The Chubb Institute which professed "the full immersion" coding school in 1999 and it didn't cost me anything. It was a rigorous COBOL camp. Their deal was that they would place you with one of their clients, and then take a portion of your salary for the first 8 months. Usually then the company would hire you directly. All 30 of us students were placed to work with one of their companies, before we even finished the bootcamp program. I worked for the company that they placed me with, for about 2 years programming w/ COBOL for the NYC FMS System, and then I transitioned to Web Development. I think The Chubb Institute was probably one of the first bootcamps even though they didn't call themselves a bootcamp.
The “salary share” model seems to be a bit more rigorous and more beneficial because they have a vested interest in you getting a job and getting paid quickly after graduation.
@@donaldjohnson-hq2su Was this in DC perchance? They had a Java program also in Jersey City that I attended.
I’m going into tech, going back to community college to get a certificate. I know the odds are stack against me, I will get a tech job no matter what. Good luck to everyone!
Just keep on grinding, making a portfolio and you'll get there. I recommend Java+SQL as it's the most used stack everywhere with the highest amount of job postings.
CS is oversaturated to oblivion
@@Karuska22ps Not really.
@@jennifersilves4195 there's over 100k new CS grads every year now and growing. So you tell me
Now that's the way to go in swinging
Holy shit, people in NA are so brainwashed by silicon valley/cushy rich programmer stereotypes that they shoot themselves in the foot. if you take a more grounded approach there are PLENTY of jobs, No, you dont have to be paid 160-250k out of a bootcamp or a freshgrad at some fancy silicon valley startup or FAANG. for example over here in Japan there are tons of jobs that hire people with 0 experience and train them from the ground up, a 30k a year job is just a normal job, work that for a few years as a python coder optimizing the backend or dataflows for some energy company or some factory and keep learning and adding skills and when the job market picks up you will have actual years of work experience to apply to bigger companies if you wanted to.
unfortunately they outsource those jobs to India here, most dev job listings are above mid level and are senior positions to manage the outsourced india teams
Hey bjni, are you a programmer in Japan and do you have N2 certification? I lived there for a bit and am currently N3 level, starting on N2/N1 materials. Was wondering if you were aware of companies like the ones you mentioned who do not require fluent business Japanese - as I know this is basically the norm. Thx 😊
Yup been in tech since 2015. First job was 40k, and it was a slow climb to where I am now. It takes time, and you have to prove yourself at the job to level up. Also took almost 2 years to get my first job. It takes time and dedication. Work other jobs while you’re learning and applying for the job you want.
One of the renowned and venerable coding bootcamps here in San Antonio, Texas known as CodeUp recently shut down. They had the advertising down to a T and drew many, many, many a student. I almost fell for it but backed out last minute. Best 10k, I've never gambled away.
CS is oversaturated to oblivion
I taught at edx, for cybersecurity and coding bootcamp, many people think a bootcamp will get them jobs but thats not true, we see the numbers and we see about 3-4 students get jobs after the bootcamp, 3-4 students out of a class 50 will get a job...most of the time the job they get isn't even coding related or cyber related, its help desk lol.
To be fair the same thing can be said about a degree, many people think a degree will promise them a cyber or software role but it wont. so what is the best way to get in tech? hands on experience. build a portfolio, build projects, show you have skills, forget the certs, those are trash too, but hands on experience is valuable. this is why self taught engineers get jobs because most of the time they show they know the skills through hands on skills, projects, etc.
Bootcamps generally give you a crash course in development but not enough for employment, especially with this market. My buddy's wife just got out of one and they paid 20k for her to not find a job. They didn't tell her that she needed to have a portfolio with projects and I'm sure they didn't tell her what types of projects she needs. So now I'm coaching her on stuff that her bootcamp should have taught her.
Yup and university is $40k over 4 years to learn theory and still not get a job. It is rough for all new devs now
@@natescode yikes! That explains why, I keep hearing from employers that colleges aren’t preparing the youth for the real world and they’re starting to dread hiring young people.
@@chrisnortonjr At the uni I'm at its all remote and the teachers hardly want to teach which is infuriating to me. Most students in comp sci classes at my uni right now who are passing already are in the field and have some experience while the one's who are fresh get thrown into the wilderness and to fend for themselves. Like if I'm gonna self study my way through the courses what was the point of paying for my comp sci degree. I honestly could have saved my money and time learning it at my pace and actually learning rather than rushing to the next deadline. Honestly I still want to get a job related in the comp sci field but with all these shenanigans it really is making me second guess my choices.
@@audibleman7750 I can totally understand, I was one of those guys already working because I knew the teachers taught for exams and not practical use. I still say a degree is worth having because some companies still use it as a gatekeeping mechanism despite it only serving as an expensive wall decoration.
Damn 20k is a bit steep
Love your content, you cut through the BS and give us the info we need.
These Bootcamps are just scams because most places require a 4 year degree.
@@SSGoatanks Funny and extremely inaccurate.
90% of my interviews were for backend positions that didn't even have the BS degree in the job requirements.
And the ones that did have them, didn't even bother asking me about it.
Only once out of 50~ interviews did my lack of degree was brought into question.
And it was brought by a HR officer that had 10 YOE. Basically a boomer that had no clue about anything modern day related.
She straight up told me to send her my CV to review it MID INTERVIEW and wanted me to explain my 3 month fcking gap between school and my first job.
Sorry but anyone that questions your lack of degree especially in IT is a complete moron.
Collage/University is far worse than bootcamps.
im a self taught dev, to the point where im just trying to hone my skills and doing more projects. I thought about getting a loan for a bootcamp, but was leaning against it. I can't really afford to get the degree, so the besti can do is work on it. I'll just keep grinding and hope it works out
Best course of action is not to just do projects. But create your own business, aka solve other people's problems until someone notices. This is and will always be the optimal way to get you hired or get attention
wouldnt recommend getting a degree. Thats the negative infinite money glitch. I got my comp sci degree, and there are just no jobs out there for us and now i have debt.
are you in united states?
Try looking at WGU Computer science, $4,000 bucks and six month terms. That's is what I am going to do to reduce the amounts of loans and time.
Leon says that all bootcamps should be about networking and then coding so if you already know coding then watch his videos for the softskills tips and skip the programming.
I graduated from a top university with a computer science degree almost 10 years ago & I have over 10 years of professional experience as a software engineer. 95% of the people I started with switched out of the program or dropped out. The crazy job market of 2021 and 2022 is not realistic! Only a very few people will last in this industry because it is competitive and it is hard work. The ability to write good clean code and to succeed in this profession has nothing to do with desire. You should be able to have a comprehensive understanding of coding to really apply yourself! I want people to know that the industry is NOT easy to get into. It never was! Stop wasting your money on bootcamps and education if you are not willing to struggle for success! Often, people have to be willing to take those lower level analyst jobs and do the dirty work before getting the chance to become a full stack developer.
Thank you I agree with this most people don't have the aptitude to become an expert in programming I'm a novice myself but tbf I am bright most people have no idea what there talking about so can't hold a conversation about code they don't understand how the Internet works or how the script is being run I've met people I've caught up with in 1 year to there 4 years of uni I'm not great I just I actually have I high aptitude this really isn't for everyone you need to be able to articulate what you know also
It’s people who don’t want to work and who don’t know what hard work is that do these boot camps and then think they can make $4000 just by typing their username and password and then live in Dubai
I agree with everything you've said, and you are 100% correct about coding bootcamps hiring students to inflate their success rates. I know this because I was hired by the bootcamp after my program ended. However, do I regret my decision attending a bootcamp? Not at all; if anything, I ended up on the better side of things.
Nevertheless, after working at a bootcamp, it's disheartening to see how many students gain little from the experience. There were instances where I believed we should have failed students, but management insisted on passing them along. Being carried through might sound nice, but what happens when you finish the bootcamp without acquiring any real skills? Good luck finding a job. I've seen many students who were pushed through despite lacking basic skills like how to write a variable.
The bootcamp I worked for was dishonest about its numbers and job placement rates, which has left me feeling quite jaded. While I had a positive experience attending and working at the bootcamp, which significantly helped me land my first entry-level job, not many are that fortunate.
Even with a degree I've heard it's more difficult.If that's the case all non traditional software paths are going to be under distress
Not coding, but I’ve done a UX bootcamp, and it helped me stay accountable and was useful to learn the foundations of the UX process. HOWEVER, it was not enough to land a job, and requires a lot of work after the bootcamp to be reasonably competitive.
Same :/ I was a designer for 2 years but it was a terrible agency job. I haven't been able to find another job since and I owe $36k because I did a stupid ISA + living stipend.
Same The marketing certificates not enough to claim you have experience with the particular specialization or get a job
I did a $5000 digital marketing certificate and it was good but would never do again or recommend. Employers don’t care about your certificate. They care about experience. I got my job by working for someone for free then got a full time offer 2 years later
Thanks man..I can't spend any resources anyway on my learning path, because 1 USD is A LOT of money for me...but knowing who to trust and who not to in my path to changing my life is always very appreciated.
At the moment I finally managed to get an used laptop and get Linux running in a SSD.
All I have is Odin Project so I'm starting with it and the VSCode website database.
Look man, you may not know that but people like you who are honest and motivating are very important. Coding could get me out of a very sad and painful reality, and help me bring the people I love with me, so it's not just an adventure or a career swap for everyone.
Thank you very much.
Best luck to you man. I'm also struggling and it's not easy. My heart goes out to anyone who's trying to make it in this cutthroat bullshit rat race.
I hear Odin Project is a great place to start
good luck, keep on grinding!
I believe in your motive, I believe you will succeed
Companies used to be desperate for developers but now the market is SUPER over saturated. There are 60k computer science grads every year and even those people are having a lot of trouble finding work. I think it’s like 90%+ of developers have at least a bachelors degree. If I’m a hiring manager and I get 200 applicants why would I even look at someone without a CS degree when there’s 100+ that have one? This is what happens when things get overhyped. It just is what it is.
I think you’d might hire the other guy if he has medium level projects built in the stack that the company you’re hiring for uses. Say you’re looking for an entry level web dev that is proficient in React and .Net. Guy 1 has a degree and only know some C and Java, and has lot of knowledge about theoretical things like compilers, data structures, algorithms, and operating systems, but hasn’t built a single website. Guy 2 has no degree, but has built 2-3 websites using html, css, React, and .Net. Guy 2 code quality is decent and the apps are functional, but there can be some improvements in speed and visual quality. I’d argue that Guy 2 could probably contribute within a few weeks and be beneficial to your team relatively fast. Guy 1 would take several months before he could contribute, because he has to learn several languages and frameworks before he can make a contribution to your team. Yeah Guy 1 knows some theoretical things that probably would make his code in C and Java run faster than Guy 2’s code, but he has to learn the languages and frameworks that Guy 2 already knows and can use. If you wan t to be a developer, don’t give up.
The reason they would hire someone without a CS degree is because of their programing ability, experience or the projects they built.
CS is oversaturated to oblivion
@@MrCK312building some projects doesn't prove your understanding of com sci fundamentals
This is the main reason. Pivot and get an on demand engineering degree (civil, mechanical, electric, etc)
I'm currently in a bootcamp for full stack development. Now that I'm near graduating, I know that the company conflates their placement rates as well as places students in any job just to continue government and stakeholder funding. Some grads from the cohort of early last year still looking for jobs. It's just another cash cow dressed up like they are doing something for the underemployed community in my city.
CS is oversaturated to oblivion
@@Karuska22ps lmao, imagine if cs is "oversaturated" now imagine these bootcamp dudes trying to get a job vs institutionally accredited candidates
FSA?
local government (dept of ed) funding@@DJVibeDubstep
It's funny how situations can differ between countries. In Europe ( the Netherlands ) it's still an employee's market, companies can't find anyone for any position especially in programming. I have noticed that companies rather keep a seat empty than hire a bad fit. We've had a couple of bad hires and they set us back for months rather then making a positive contribution. We had people that worked as a programmer on their CV for years that couldn't complete basic tasks :P.
I could talk at length about bootcamps, what to look for when researching them, etc, but honestly this point in time may not be a good comparison. It's super hard for anyone to land that first job right now, whether you're self trained, college grad, or a bootcamp grad. When i finished my program (one that I would vouch for as one of the good ones), my colleagues were sometimes even landing jobs before the graduation date. It took a bit longer for me (3 months), but the program didn't abandon me during that time frame. There was support if I needed it all the way through.
I still keep up with the activities of that program. While it used to be totally in person, covid forced it remote. The job market is so much tougher now, I know plenty of new grads that didn't land jobs within 6 months. Some of them are having so much trouble, they're trying to pivot into game development (also with the program's help).
That isn't to say that some of them aren't still getting hired, but that is just to the credit of this particular program.
May I ask what bootcamp you went to?
I'm one of those students that got hired by a bootcamp. The market is quite rough. I haven't found a job in around 2 years. I've had some small contract stuff here and there. I can absolutely code, but hiring managers aren't really looking for that, they need that turn key employee that has has experience with the more nuanced stuff with coding jobs. Chicken egg forever.
At this time you could've build your own website, an online shop or something like that, your own business? No? Thanks! And good luck!
@@SandraWantsCoke You need money for that online shop. Where will you get that money 😂😂. You need time too but we pesky humans need food, sleep and shelter unfortunately and that requires money. Bro we have no money to buy that required time for such projects
Only a small portion of what I learnt in my CS degree was stuff that was actually useful for a coding job, so I've no doubt that it's possible to learn all the necessary information condensed into 2-3 months of intensive learning and exercises. The real difference is that universities are usually reputable and accredited whereas there no standards or auditing of bootcamps, so you have no idea what you're getting, and people hiring have no way to know what you learned or didn't learn either. So you will still need some personal projects or open-source contributions to demonstrate your skills, just as if you were self-taught.
CS is oversaturated to oblivion
They’ll be able to know what you’ve done based on your projects
Universities "teach" you outdated knowledge and skills based on technologies that nobody in the mother is hiring anymore, taught by people who haven't worked a single day in the field you're trying to get a job in.
And after minimum of 4 grueling years in uni, you get a minimum wage internship after 6-12 months of looking for a job and you're working additional 2 years so you can live NORMALLY.
Around 6 years wasted.
As bad as bootcamps are, I think the problem is more so people wanting to learn coding with the objective of getting job within less than one year of learning to code. it takes Time and you really have to have a passion for it and understand that the money part comes later if you want to be a successful programmer and get a job. It needs to be a long term goal and you should want to learn to code solely for the sake of wanting to learn to code if that makes sense.
That would be a great model if people didn't have this pesky addiction to food and shelter.
CS is oversaturated to oblivion
What?!? You mean to tell me that people are wanting to learn to code to get a job to pay the bills?? And all within a year!?!? OMG how dare they.
Agreed brother. Another issue is that tech TH-camrs “sell” dreams to people that want to transition in the tech industry. It’s problematic because they make it sound like it’s easy and the amount of money you can make (which is true you eventually make a lot of money) but they completely hide the fact it’s a journey process that won’t happen instantly more times than not. I’ve been learning Ux/ui design for almost 3 years now and I’m still without my first job. I’ve had a total of 2 interviews and one ghosted me but I’m not going to quit because of that. I genuinely want to grow myself in that field and I won’t allow rejection to keep me from pursuing what will happen. I’ve had plans that I’d have this job after 6 months or that job after a year and neither happened but that’s okay. Time takes time. I will become a professional ux/ui designer and those rejections will only make me have more of an MJ moment of “okay fine” heheh don’t give up boys/girls
so, let's learn code to NOT HAVE A JOB AND JUST FOR FUN... 🤡
Thanks for the blunt honest truth. Definitely very helpful.
To say the least, they're EXPENSIVE AF. Thanks for your content 🙏
How much do they cost in your countries?
Nah, they are cheap af 💀
I remember some bootcamp asking me for 7000€ lol
I bought some Udemy courses and study by myself.
4 years later I'm an Advanced SQL Developer with loads of knowledge in other languages as well 😂👍
I do the same. Books, the occasional Udemy, and TH-cam are usually enough.
yeah udemy made me a devops engineer and now a cybersecurity engineer.
How much did the entire Udemy coursework cost you?
I did the same to supplement some of my knowledge after college I was a tester before then became db/Linux sysadmin, iot developer now I worked as an ML engineer. I actually kind of regretted going to college but I think it helps a bit. Just look for other alternative to save other than getting into debt. Good luck all!
@@woody-xm5ve Yeah, but when your applying recruiters want to see that degree. They automate your resume and if its not what they're looking for it gets deleted.
I finished Lambda School (rebranded to Bloom Tech). It did not prepare me at all. Applied to about 150 jobs before the pandemic and prob another 200 during/after before I gave up. Only got 3 interviews.
To add insult to injury, they tried to say my role as a customer facing Tech Support role was "qualified income". I had to threaten to take them to arbitration before they even considered an exemption. I don't know about other companies, but stay far far away from Lambda/Bloom Tech.
what program did you take?
It’s interesting to hear this coming from a guy who graduated from Flat Iron School and then went off to get a job and is doing well. I wouldn’t be knocking off bootcamps if I were you. Worked in your case.
Employers will always go for what they perceive to be a better investment. In this case a degree/experience over bootcamped individuals since the market is much tighter now. Like any market I have no idea the direction of it. It could come back or we may find that devs are going to be on the decline. I don't find this to be especially pessimistic, its just reality of less demand and too much supply. It's better than lying to people saying all is perfect in the market.
@guymontag5084 Bro 💀💀💀💀💀 that's a damn good deal. Wdym
I did a UX design bootcamp a few years ago. Luckily, I was able to get a job but it was a shitty, low-paying agency gig. I havent been able to find another job since I quit 6 months ago. I owe $36k because I signed a stupid ISA + living stipend.
yeah Holberton School is a school in Connecticut I had a subscriber reach out to me in 2018 and tell me he was going to go there and then came back to me in 2020 and I helped get his first job but till this day he still paying for the loan it's actually 3x the price of the average bootcamp.
Man that's wild!
Coding bootcamps are basically like 'hammer mastery classes.' They teach you all there is to know about hammers and how to swing them. Real programming is not about swinging hammers though, it's about building houses. There is so much more involved in building a house than using a hammer. Companies don't need people who know how to swing hammers, they need people who know how to build houses and who would use a rock on the side over road as a hammer if they needed to.
Employers don’t care about what’s practical for your life situation. That’s not a reason for them to hire you over someone with a CS degree that took 4 years. Sucks but that’s how it is. Either get a CS degree and some internship experience while in school or don’t waste your time at all because it’s tough out there. You’re competing with thousands of skilled people for just one job.
Here comes the guy who learned web development, made some money, and all over a sudden has come to the realization that CS was made only for him and others can't make it. The market is tough, and even senior engineers are being laid off. We know that. Stop repeating it in every video under different titles.
Honestly I'm happy to learn this. Because some of this information can stop people from making costly mistakes.
@@masterDarts4188Yeah at least he's keeping it real.
I left tech because of people like you who are unnecessarily rude. Dafaq dude. He never even said all the stuff you claim. You don't have to watch if you're salty.
Bootcamps are a scam. You can learn for free with the odinproject.
I agree with you. I can’t watch his videos anymore. They’re not motivating at all and quite discouraging all of a sudden. I’m currently in a bootcamp that my job is paying for so no loss for me financially. I wish he’d just move on to other topics like actually showing us how to code or whatever else he wants to talk about instead of being on the “coding is a waste of time” train he’s been on lately. If it’s not something he wants to encourage anymore for whatever reason, cool but I don’t get it.
Also how do we know he’s actually a web developer and not just some guy sitting behind a computer talking about it? Food for thought….
I am currently doing a CS degree on WGU, but I have a friend who is employed in the software industry and he actually used to work at one of the coding bootcamps himself, and told me that essentially it was all about turnover. Getting people in and out as fast as possible and that the management did not really care about the students or their progress..just the bottom line.
CS degree is not even close to being an approximate of a "coding bootcamp".
1. I dont like coding bootcamps
2. I dont advocate for a degree either
But CS/IT is NOT going to teach you how to code. Period. There's no question about it.
Computer Science and Informatics are exactly what they say they are ... the science of information and how we make rocks to make boop boop noises. Like studying computer architecture, or outdated maths of AI. Or learning calculus which you will 99% not ever need in your job unless you're something like a graphics engine developer where you might need some linear algebra.
Most of what you'll learn in CS/IT has almost absolutely nothing to do with what you'll be doing at your job.
So, let's say you finish your CS degree. Then what? You don't know how to code and most employers search for people, even for junior devs, that already know how to code ...... and CS degree ain't teaching you that!
Coding bootcamps came to fill exactly that gap. To teach you how to code.
Bootcamps are not there to replace a CS degree, they're there to fill a gap.
So, people comparing CS degree to bootcamps, have no idea what they're talking about.
I've been to CS college. And yet I knew nothing afterwards about how to code, but I was teaching myself as I was in the college and did my projects till I got hired. Now that I have 7 years of experience as a Software Engineer, I still see people with CS degrees searching for a job. Why? Because They don't teach you ReactJS at college. They won't teach you how to write clean code. They won't teach you how to cooperate professionally in a team. Or what is CI/CD. Or what is Docker, Kubernetes, Kafka, RabbitMQ, MongoDB, Postgresql, MariaDB, Mosquito, Redis, Memcached yada yada. They teach you nothing about any of those tools at a CS college.
The CS college to there to teach you the science of information and what is Big O, the maths around it and such. It is not there to teach you how to code. It's completely different from a coding bootcamp. Which again, I don't even advocate for. I think most of them are kind of scams and promise too much.
I feel really bad for my friend who graduated from Flatiron last year. He gave up his job search and is now in massive debt and returned to his job as an assistant manager at a gym making $18/hr.
It be like that. Tell him not to give up!
So he found a job after the bootcamp? 100% job placement. 😎
At least he took a chance on himself. He shouldn't give up on himself.
Meet more girls working at the gym counter though.
Your friend should continue to work hard on side projects and keep applying. I had friends who graduated from Flat Iron and went on to work at FAANG and LinkedIn, but this was a couple years ago when the economy was good.
I just got a boot cramp grad a solid interview. There is totally a path from crazy boot camp to job still. I was self taught and agree it is better.
I think the thing that always surprises me about this, and it always comes back to it, is how programs dont really emphasize enough to students to actually *like* software engineering and computer science
You dont even have to do computer science in college to get decent software engineering classes. I did Information Technology with a specialization in game dev (because i *did not want to be a web developer, I really wanted to make video games* )
How i got my job was just being so stuck on "what classes will help me build my portfolio?" And i was so obsessed with personal projects and getting internships, and then web apps and getting internships and then getting my first job before graduating from college...
Like, I look back how crazy my path really was when id still call myself a pretty mediocre developer... I just, really liked making things or feeling really fidgety when im not doing something, that I ended up doing a ton of stuff in college, and kinda with work the last 8 years...
Now im doing a software engineering masters at a not so crazy high R2 school and as expensive as a masters sounds, i at least have breathing time to try new things
While doing student orgs, game jams, and all that that i still do with my alma mater, game jams, hackathons, getting advice on stuff i make, etc...
Dont look at coding as a job that pays cuz, you'll just be in the same bucket as other developers
Pick a goal for why you want to code besides trying to help your family, and strive for that goal. The money will come when you find actually satisfaction with software engineering
And the interviews become a lot easier when you are able to speak more on the knit-and-gritty besides some leetcode questions. Like know your CS, but thats not going to help you on the soft skills interviews you'll have
Good comment. I, hopefully, 99.9% sure, got a job as an embedded developer, after studying hard for a few months (I have a computer engineering degree, and working a similar role for 2 years). It's the only type of coding I don't find boring after 2 hours. I've done basic web development etc..., and the fact I don't understand how it works on a fundamental level really sucked the interest out. What I also find interesting is math related coding, with python, for example.
I am not a good developer, by any means, but I always get things done with embedded hardware. I am 100% the company accepted me simply because I went on 10 minute rant about the projects I did at uni and how I spend 4 hours trying to debug an issue with an interrupt, finally seeing that my compiler was optimizing code...
They started to ask me unrelated to the interview questions. When we finally started with the actual questions, on the last one, I said "In Denis Richie's "The C Programming Language", I saw this question and did it, in one of the first chapters". The two interviewers looked at each other, and just said, "Ok, just say how you did it in this case" (didn't want me to write the code).
I honestly get a tick when I hear a "Coding BootCamp for web dev with javascript".... I don't even know why.
While I'm not inherently opposed to the idea of bootcamps, you can get a self paced Udemy course for $10-15 on sale that is arguably better and more comprehensive than the $3-15k you'll pay for a boot camp. There's just no need for them in 2024
Assuming the bootcamp is worth its salt, you're going to spend a lot more time and fumble around a lot more trying to self-pace train. Some people aren't built mentally for that, too, so they will inevitably become demoralized and fail. but sure, barring all that, it's "not necessary." K-12 school isn't necessary, too, since everything you learn there can be found in the library.
@@dweblinveltz5035 Is it really a problem now? Ask chatGPT to explain anything, every single line of code if necessary. That's one thing it's actually good for. Doesn't work all the time, but a teacher could f-up too, lmao.
The IT job market sucks for every tech vertical right now. Companies have their pick of many highly experienced candidates. Regardless of the training quality, a noob can't compete with guys that have 6, 8, or more, years of experience.
I went through 2 boot camps back to back . The reason I went through both because I wanted to use up the rest of my VA GI Bill benifits before they ran out. I agree with some of your concerns but I feel differently because of my experience. The school I went to had a track record of placing student in jobs.The reason I chose the school is because one of my former employees that I managed went through the same school and land a job a few months after attending. Also many of the local tech companies heavily recruited from the school. I truly believe that there was a shift after the FAANG layoffs in the beginning of 2023. After my demo day I had a few companies interested in me. It seems that it was like overnight that the companies just stop communicating. Since then I stayed in my original field and have been flooding resume's and one out of a hundred reply.
DAMN FAM.... You did a drake back 2 back lol sorry just had drake in my mind when you said back to back... wow that's crazy... hope you find a job soon try learning things outside of what the bootcamp taught you I bet you they focused on the MERN stack...
@@CodingPhase Did a Java and Javascript back to back. The only reason is because my GI benifits was running out so no time to get a Masters so I went to a local bootcamp. They were pretty legit and the instructors were former students that had development jobs prior to teaching. Local tech companies, former students, and even google recruiters were some of the type of connection the school had. When I graduated Nov 2022 there was definatily a shift on the job market. Luckily I had someone needing me in my prior field (video production) .Called me about a job a week before I graduated. I took it to tide me over tilll I find somethign in Tech. After the tech bubble burst there were alot of people with experience in the market.
What bootcamps do you suggest?
@@Its_Only_UP I went to a local one but we did have a few people that came to the school from out of town. I went to Claim Academy in Saint Louis, MO. I did both the online course and in-person and both were pretty good.
Don't be naive...
There will ALWAYS be a cycle of positive to negative content trending.
Don't let this ridiculous wave of pessimistic content trick you into thinking that you can't get a job as a developer... It's total BS.
Next year the content will be all butterflies and rainbows again, just wait.
It's just a never ending cycle to keep people watching videos.
These TH-camrs look for small changes at major companies and generalize the entire market based on it. Just because Facebook or Google does something or says something, doesn't mean the entire industry is going to sh*t.
Lol no, don't get a degree either. Just avoid coding altogether unless it's for entrepreneurship, to create your own product or ecommerce, or as a hobby. DO NOT become a tech employee. The good times for tech employees are OVER.
Im shocked Coding bootcamps are still a thing especially since the release of ChatGPT.
I turned down coding bootcamps for a software dev apprenticeship. Sadly they weren’t able to get me a job but at the very least I got 4 classes of college credit for free so it wasn’t a complete waste of time.
And yes all the jobs I saw and I’ve applied for required a bachelors degree in cs or equivalent.
Speaking as a bootcamp instructor, I gave up when customer requirements became so onerous it just wasn't practical anymore. It takes days or even weeks (at least for me) to develop decent courseware. The problem is customers don't want generalized content you can reuse anymore (because so much of it is available for free online). They want to learn some very specific tool while paying for a generalized course. Sorry, spending 3 weeks to one-off some obscure tool only to bring home a couple grand is just not worth it.
Plus coach travel on today's airlines is absolute crap.
The thumb made me think Johnny Sins is talking about coding bootcamps. I guess he has done every other occupation so why not computer programmer as well?
The MAJORITY of professional developers have NEVER touched “leetcode”. If your typical enterprise CRUD app dev making 120k was asking leetcode in an interview, it’s because the hiring team is trying to pretend they’re FAANG for their 100 internal users basic app.
It’s fine if they are asking Easy level leetcode problems as a filter to see who is a real programmer and who is fake.
But medium level and up is completely waste of people’s time.
You have no idea how correct is that .. I'm a former teacher from a 12 month bootcamp .. They fired me over malicious feedback from bad students because they accept everyone and the government (Germany) is paying 30k for each student
The whole issue I see with this is that a generation thinks about coding like a "get rich quick scheme". When I started to study CS, 10 years ago, it was a promising field but none of the students that started with me had the idea that it was going to be easy, we were looking for a career, a trade. Right now I'm a senior dev making good money, but it took many many years of studying + many many years of working multiple projects. Not at all fast or easy
I have a CS degree from 20 years ago. Graduated not really knowing what to do career wise.
Always loved tech. A few years ago I ended up trying a boot camp.
Boot camps get you going quickly. You learn how to actually do something. A CS will not. Don't go find a web dev job after graduating. Start your own thing. Boot camps enable you to do this.
My son went to a coding bootcamp and it has worked out very well for him.
He had maxed out what he could make working as a transaction manager in real estate and wanted to get into software development. After taking an entry level position he got a promotion and then took a job working for the company that writes software for the Multiple Listing Service that realtors use. It is a good combination of his real estate and software skills.
He's glad he made the switch and a coding bootcamp enabled him to do that.
Dorian, if you think coding bootcamps are bad what do you think of the 4-5 years it takes to get a bachelors in CS? Or any other degree for that matter.
I hope the price comes down for some. $15k is steep. Remember when they were all $3-5k? In 2016 I did a few for that price in San Francisco. In 2022 they were all around $20k.
Eloquent JS is a classic coding book, but to me it's more about observation of the JS lang and runtime than a learn-to-code book. It's a deep dive and probably not ideal for teaching someone how to code. It's more like a reference I think.
I did Codesmith in 2023, supposedly THE best coding bootcamp that got people into Facebook, Google, Capital One, etc, but out of the 20 people in my class, only 1 guy got a tech job at Capital One. And that is because the dude has a CS degree and was working at a data analyst job already, he just did Codesmith to have projects made because his college class projects were not that good. The rest of us were career changers with irrelevant degrees and unrelated jobs, here I am back in college to get the CS degree and 19k dollars spent on Codesmith having to start from 0 pretty much in college
Spent most of last year applying for jobs and updating my portfolio and went for salesforce cert. No one interview. Coding bootcamps are the new technical schools, time to go.
Seems to me nobody cares about a degree or cert anymore. Indoor to get hired for a job the space you have to have already had a job doing the same thing. It’s demoralizing
Thanks, Dorian for a well researched video. I'm sorry to see all this fall out for aspiring developers. I wonder if covid stay-at-home forced a lot of people into considering a coding job since a) they were at home on their computer a lot and b) work-from-home was gonna be the future and coding biz was the perfect future gig. It's a shame that a perfect storm for market changes have caught out a lot of people. Your video may provide some wisdom and perspective for many. Kudos.
Something that you didn't really cover here is that a significant portion of coding boot camp recruits in the US are military veterans looking to get free tuition and a housing/cost of living stipend while getting technical training through the VET TEC program. If you just got back into civilian life why would you not want to sign up for a program that literally pays you thousands of dollars without counting against your GI bill benefits to do an at-home coding course and learn some useful software development skills? Having used the program after I left the Navy I can tell you that the VET TEC program is very strict about making sure you actually get good grades during the course and effectively search for a job afterwards, but if you are willing to put in the work it's an excellent use of time.
Hi I am in Nucamp now, I agree it is just a crash course into development, and the amount of people I see in each class, I realize not everyone will get a job. I already paid for the bootcamp so I have to finish. But I definitely think Mosh is the best for learning IT , and his courses are free or 19.99. Udemy is great as well. I agree with you about bootcamps. I think that boat has sailed...
I almost signed up for one that would have cost 20k, so happy I had doubts, I’ll look for a career with growth that’s not about to be destroyed by ai
What career may I ask? Thanks!
oh man, I interviewed with the lewagon bootcamp over a year ago and was so turned off by a question they asked me at the end: why should we take you on as a student. Like I was still needing convincing that I should join so felt like saying "don't, I don't care" lol. Oh well, gave a bullshit answer and they still accepted me, but I ghosted them of course.
Naaah. Some questions are straight up bs and disrespectful. You proved yourself good enough yet they require more convincing.
The question "what were you doing during this gap ? " Where you were most likely wasting your time applying to hundreds of companies and having 3-4 interviews per company and even when they know that process they expect you to tell them why you're still not hired 🤦♂.
Even though most of them expect senior level knowledge juniors with intern pay. HR's are ruining the IT sector
I want to give a huge shoutout to the people that came in my life at that time and encouraged me to go the bootcamp way.. I did it, it took me a year and a half to finish it even though they kept advertising it a 9 month program. I'm super grateful that I took my time to do it while the world shut down.... and super grateful I got snatched up quick, and even when the first job didnt work out , and I just wanted a few months to rest, Im grateful I got snatched up even quicker for my now job. I'm happy I took the chance and now able to tell students, network, self learn, find a cheaper bootcamp or do 100devs. It's worth it, yes, but you can find the same thing online for free. Nevertheless im greatful for the structure.
Did bootcamp in 2019 for web dev, was also studying iot in university. Didn't get a job til 2021 but as a TA. Later became a instructor for bootcamp and after school program. Still cant land a dev role but instructor role im gainng some traction.
Tech field is extremely oversaturated and alot of people not going to make. Dont trust bootcamp coming from instructor that work an a boot camp. They are there to make money from you.
Better off starting a business in tech or work in a different field.
I think to actually learn and become valuable in any IT profession, you should really love the thing you do or be really nerdy about it. I am a 3D artist and a teacher and I knew I want to be a 3D artist since I was 15. But I didn't have any progress and had to start over three times until something happened and I sat for a month from early mornings until late nights modeling like obsessed. Only then I really began. And I rarely see this in my students, some are lazy, for others it's just a fun interesting experience, but for one of them I gave the job of my second teacher for the last summer period, she is 11yo. Not everyone made for this. So it's not unusual that only 2 of them made it through, it's a statistic. And that's why these jobs are well paid.
Within the first 50 seconds you were able to describe my experience with Joy of Coding bootcamp. I was a comp sci major at my university for a while and they told us that in the summer of our second year we would get a paid internship minimum $20 an hour with knowing basic coding. I didn't do great in my intro coding class (c lang) and so I looked at joining a coding boot camp. That's when I learned it was like not a real service as we would just be working for her startup company as "students"
Im self taught like you, i got denied from app academy, so i just decided to learn the stuff on my own. I started in 2016. Fast forward now, im 6 years into my dev career. I got my first job in 2019 and got laid off recently in early 2023. Got a job pretty quick though, although its not remote, its hybrid which is ok. I want a remote role its hard. Unfortunately i live close to a big city so the cost of living is insane. I want to take my remote swe role and move to EE. Thats the goal.
Just be grateful you have a job
@@massandje477 grateful to be a glorified slave? Yeah im grateful, jesus what is it with you people
What is EE?
I respect your opinion but i have a total different one! I joined at 38 y old a coding bootcamp for 6 months (12 hours/day). Before that i practiced a little bit html css and javascript and have created some one page websites. When i finished and 1.5 month later i had 3 offers and accepted the best wich is the largest Technology company in my country. Of course i gave my best during the bootcamp, almost burned. And imagine im 38!!!! Im so happy now. You need guidance ,if you do it alone it may take you 2-3-4 years to land a job.
I went to a technical institute for 5 years. All our work was just reading PDFs. By the time I graduated everything was obsolete. Needless to say. I’ve been a self taught web dev and programmer for over 16 years. This allowed me to expand my horizons and veer in many directions. When code academy first popped up I thought it was great to just test my skills with their online exams but that was short lived when I couldn’t access my account content without paying.
"Technical institutes" were always a scam.
Holberton offers mandatory in-person attendance the first month, which helps a lot to get into rhythm, after that every friday is mandatory to discuss a weakly recap
I literally just finished paying off my ISA at App Academy yesterday. While I got a job and placed, I definitely wouldn't recommend a boot-camp for an aspiring developer as a pathway into the industry.
Congratulations; Python or Ruby?
For me, I went to a bootcamp that was attached to a contracting agency years ago. They tailored the curriculum towards web development for basic frontend / backend for the companies they dealt with. It was free of cost, the only catch was that they would contract you out for a minimum 1 or 2 years where they could place you with various companies. They only got paid if you worked for them, so honestly was a pretty good deal to guarantee you something to get the foot in the door.
The bootcamps that cost you money upfront are total scams.
The skill of Web Development is developed from your passion for it, a boot camp or any paid studying is really a jump off point… to get good at it (and considered employable), not mentioning soft skills, the effort required is no different for any other trade… and exactly the same goes for the job search effort.. I don’t understand why web development has gained a reputation of being easy to get into, or some golden opportunity to escape your mundane depression inducing, soul crushing or low paying job.. it kind of isn’t.. for those whom web dev has been a successful transition, there’s something deep (such has having a passion for it and wanting to follow it) driving them, fear of being stuck in a boring 9-5 is not enough
Thank you Dorian for keeping it real in your videos… I’m self taught, following your footsteps, with your videos as a source of motivation, joined a frontend online boot camp to give me a guidance - found it so fascinating that it naturally led me to learning backend and now I’m pursuing a full stack career - wouldn’t have been able to develop these skills without you TH-camrs and the encouragement you give 🙏🙏
Everytime they offer you job placements / options after you graduate, lies lies
I went through a bootcamp-like system, but it was for data science. Some may know of it, but I liked it because it was free (and because of that had a very competitive application process), and they only made money if you got a job. So their incentives were all in the right place. Unfortunately, the week I finished/went on the job market was the same week the stay-at-home orders all started coming in for the pandemic. EVERYONE that I was interviewing with, immediately froze hiring, and then there were massive layoffs industry-wide. So, I was just starting out and now competing with a large group of unemployed data scientists with years of experience, for a significantly decreased number of jobs. People talk about how bad it is now, but mid-2020 was so much worse. I eventually found a good data science job, though, and I was happy with my experience. The program I went to, though, did not survive the pandemic since they made no money upfront and only made money on their students getting hired.
It’s the market. I know several senior swe that can’t find a job. 2023 has been brutal with tech layoffs. Bootcamps teach you how to code. You can learn for free or pay. Just like everything else. Are some of them shady? Probably. Are some of the legit. Probably. Be smart.
The market is also really bad right now... I have a bachelor's, 2 years of experience and do plenty of hard leet codes, but it took me hundreds of applications to find a job that pays under the average. At least the job is easy and has plenty of benefits, but it's a really bad market.
Good remote jobs are hard to get since the competition is so high.
Dude, can you give some advice on how to leetcode
Left my job in Sept 2021 and finished my bootcamp in Feb 2022 and got interviewed/hired in Sept/Oct 2022. During the year the layoffs started 🥲 such a stressful time for junior developers but I’m sure my MIS degree helped in some sense as it’s a compsci adjacent degree.
Make sure you guys are filing for unemployment!
Can they really cover OS, networking, data structures, algorithms, distributed systems, security, databases, etc in 6 months?
I attended a boot camp, long story short, it was fun I mad a lot of contacts and expanded my network quickly. It also came with a career manager who I can still work with. The content we cover you can quickly and easily find online for free, but free content won't come with the on demand support that you get in a boot camp. Many people I attended with did find work, but I was the only one with a very limited education background. Conversely, I excelled and lead every class, scoring perfect grades on every exam. Despite the exceeding the expectations of the camp, I still am unable to find a job.
Conclusion, there are a lot of benefits to a camp vs self-taught, but if you don't already have a favorable background, neither will get you a job. When I took the class, to get a C.S. would cost a minimum 4 times of a camp and not possible for an already established adult. Now you can get a masters C.S. degree online for as little as 10K. So, Ultimately I wish I never signed up.
I work as a lead for a service desk and I tell people to learn to code, but do it so you understand how software works, but don't expect to get a job in it. AI will kill all those jobs soon, however you'll know how to think about problems from an engineering perspective if you're good.
I just want to point out for your argument against CS degrees, that schools like WGU, SNHU, and others like that are "competency-based," meaning you can test out of subjects you are proficient in, and you can get a whole Bach degree in under a year if you really put in the work. I did it at WGU and got my Bach in CompSci within 6 months studying 20 hours a week in 3-4 hours a day, 6 days a week on top of working full time. So basically, in the same timeframe you can complete a bootcamp, you can get a Bach in CompSci.
I am currently enrolled in Holberton Puerto Rico. They are all over the world. Here it’s 55k and the program is 9months intro and 9 months specialization. I’m in my second month and I just hope for the best.
while applying for jobs in europe i stumbled upon a really shady bootcamp company. They listed multiple jobs and apparently everyone applying is turned off but given an opportunity to study at them with a guarantee for a job at the end of it
If you can't with a company signing off on your skill, basic self taught's not going to get you more interviews. I started with a glorified bootcamp like that over 10 years ago, and that one dropped 2/3 of the people there, and same one today doesn't accept people without degrees. There are well over 10x the comp science grads there where back then now. You can learn the skills for free, I don't think you can get started with a job anymore without the piece of paper anymore.
for god sakes if someone pitches anything over 20k just get the damn degree.
I attended a bootcamp in 2022. My current employer was sponsoring the tuition for my whole cohort with the promise of a job from this company upon graduation. However, they hired less than they promised so most of my cohort was stuck job hunting for months after graduation. From what I experienced during the program, I would not have paid tuition for it. I started at my current position the week after graduation and I will say the bootcamp did not get the students job ready.
Coding bootcamps are stupid in so many ways. They might have made sense prior to youtube but unless you're doing it to build connections you can easily get everything they teach for free. Join an open source project if you want experience.
Just like college.. if you graduate with no real practical skills or a solid portfolio you also won’t get a job. Only difference is you paid $60k..
Coding boot camps teach only a small subset of Software Engineering , with a focus on the easier parts of coding while leaving out the harder , more complex parts like Operating Systems, Compiler Design ,Digital Logic and Embedded Systems, Distributed Programming, Linear Algebra, Calculus, Discrete Mathematics, Statistics for LLM, Theory of Computation etc
This results in their base knowledge of IT being quite low and skillsets limited , preventing them from working on high end operations in a company, resulting in them being a dime a dozen programmers rather than near top of their field. Guess who's resume gets trashed first or who are let go first during layoffs.
bootcamps everywhere are popping up for instance im in the gaming industry and there are tons of 3d/gamedev bootcamps
My wife's in school for a masters degree in computer science and the whole thing cost just 13k Canadian dollars. The bootcamps were asking for nearly 20k USD, which I found amusing. She was taught the expected stuff at university - intro to programming, statistics and applications (data analysis, machine learning), algorithms, etc, but the best part is the industry co-op. She's actually working on a real application that's hosted on AWS, written in Python and React, deployed on kubernetes in AWS. It is a 4 month long project with the usual stuff (user stories, jiras, etc). So in a way she got the expected CS courses where they don't bother with nearly any day-to-day dev skills, but got to experience and learn that in the co-op. I thought the whole thing was very reasonably priced for what she's getting out of it. She was a civil engineer before, so she knows how to put in the effort. Not sure if there are any comparable courses in the US, but if there are, this is highly recommended.
P.S. - I know 13k is not exactly cheap, but it definitely was cheaper than the bootcamps lol
Can I ask which university?
Funny, only 2 of 21 have found employment after bootcamp after 8 months. More like 1 maybe from a Simplilearn Bootcamp.
I generally disagree on the requirements. I've worked steadily since the mid 90's in SWE without the 4 year, just some college credits. Once you get a few years under your belt, there have always been numerous jobs not needing it. And in relation to current conditions; just about everyone that I know that DOES have a 4+ year is ALSO looking for work. Many for quite a while now.
The only thing that has ever hurt me has been missing calculus. Working on it.
I paid $10,000 for a coding boot camp at UNC at Chapel Hill ten months ago. I wish I had seen this video before signing up. I feel defrauded because the promises they made, such as higher salaries and a high hiring rate, turned out to be false.
I would say self-taught>CS degree>paid bootcamp. The problem is that not everyone can learn and get good enough all by himself.
Would getting your cs degree from online get you a job after graduation ?
I'm going for WGU's Software Engineering degree. Glad I didn't spend my money on a bootcamp. Competency based schools are a much better deal and I recommend the "College Hacked" and "9 Month College Grad" channels to anyone interested in learning more.
I had to go back to uni and finish my major in ACS (Actuarial Science). I started learning how to code in Feb last year and will be hitting one year into learning web development on 20th this month.
It's really pretty hard to strike the right balance between studying for my Actuarial units and pushing commits on GitHub. I thank God I'll be completing my 4-year degree in April and create more room for me to exclusively focus more on building projects. I've already started applying for jobs but been receiving rejection emails for the last two months. But atleast for me, I believe I'll be set if the hiring managers shift their hiring gears, having a degree from a STEM specialty.
I attempted the MITxPro full stack developer bootcamp way back. It was described as "friendly for beginners." Absolute scam. Basically video after video with few (if any) actual coding exercises. The few that were there were done in a buggy tool that didn't work half the time. Basically zero guidance and half of the class involved "here, read these 20 articles." Some of these people should absolutely be taken to court. If you're thinking about joining this course (if it still exists), don't.
CS degree is not for the weak of heart.
Brother as long as they don't regulate or creating replacement robots for any tech jobs coding never get better !!! Anyway thank you for telling the truth.